
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 10 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 600



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GT: Far Trader missing do worlds
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: PEEPER-Class Picket (was Re: Norfolk Class)
Re: Norfolk Class
Re: Population modelling
Re: Norfolk class Destroyer
Re: Gene Bank
Re: Fun with nukes
Re: Real-life Traveller weapon REF: X-ray machines
Re: G:T Far Trader stuff
Re: I'm back from sea 
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks
Re: Real-life Traveller weapon REF: X-ray machines
Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)  (Was: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks)
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks
Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:57:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Far Trader missing do worlds

- --- jmaclean@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> >Hex   World  PR  TL  Port  WTN  Trade cl.  Alg   Plan   Gas
> >3235  Trin   10  12  V     6.5  Hi In Cp   IM    0      ?
> >3236  Hazel   7   5  III   3.5  Ag         IM    ?      ?
> >
> >Hazel is also an Amber Zone.
> >
> 
> 	Consulting the Ch.7 draft material, you are quite correct.  
> Trin has a gas giant, and Hazel has a planetoid belt.

Thanks.

Terry Mixon
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 12:33:06 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

My credentials: 9 years professional programming, including writing
monitor programs (essentially minimalist operating systems) for embedded 
systems -- well, game consoles, actually.

> >>Executable and non executable must be flaged in ANY system.  It comes down
> >>to the diference between data and code.  One is operated on and the otehr is
> >>the operater.  TL will not change this.

This simply is not true in many architectures. An operating system 
copying bytes from hard disk to RAM might be loading an application - 
data which is then executed - or might be loading a document - data 
in the traditional sense. 

If the CPU's program counter jumps to a block of memory containing
what you call data, then depending on the CPU architecture, it may
well do its best to interpret it as code and execute it. Older and 
simpler CPUs in particular aren't very picky in this regard (and so
you could say that TL *has* changed this already, once). 

> >Even on normal von Neuman architecture systems, where code and data use
> >a common store, unless a program is set up to *allow* data to be
> >treated as code, it's not possible to get data executed.

It's really more like the opposite: unless the system is set up 
explicitly to restrict certain segments of memory from executing,
it's not possible to prevent data from being executed. 

> >And given the examples of recent years, you *really* think that OSes
> >and applications in the future are *not* going to have learned from
> >things like the Melissa virus? That they are going to leave *obvious*
> >holes in things for someone to exploit?

I'm pretty confident that future OSs will have *more* holes, not 
fewer. How long had computer viruses been well-known when Microsoft
added document-embedded macros to MS Word? They didn't learn from 
all the other viruses written previously, and this situation isn't 
going to get better. Read the comp.risks newsgroup for a few months
if you want to know just how frequently people keep making the 
same damn mistakes over and over again.

> >>> 9) The only way the the virus could reconfigure the computers circuitry is
> >>> if the circuitry was designed to be reconfigured during operation, like a
> >>
> >> Which it is.
> >
> >Not necessarily. Circuitry will tend to be hardwired. *Software* can be
> >reconfigured. This is why we use general purpose computers, with
> >application programs, rather than reconfigure the hardware for each new
> >application.

Tell that to Transmeta. 
 
- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:33:03 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: PEEPER-Class Picket (was Re: Norfolk Class)

In a message dated 99-05-10 13:58:47 EDT, you write:

<< >1000 dtons is a bad size for a military ship IMO. Too big for an 
expendable
 >picket, too small to put real (bay/spinal) weapons on.
 
   Who you calling expendable?
 
 PEEPER-Class Picket:
 
         FQ-1631331-000000-04000-0       MCr 73.992      130 tons
         Cargo=0.6. LHyd=81.9. EP=3.9. Agility=0. Low=0. Crew=2. TL=C.
 
   A dual-purpose picket ship and courier, with L-Hyd capacity for 2x J-3 in
 the basic configuration. The flying saucer hull includes fuel scoops and
 hoses, but no purification plant. MCr 92.49 singly.
 
   This one could carry 130 tons of drop tank; the execution of a first
 jump-2 with a 65 Dt tank would add 2 parsecs to intrusion range and
 allow the vessel to both start the rest of the journey with full tanks
 and have a J2 L-Hyd cache if it came back that way. Brackets are standard,
 and the tanks are KCr 1 per Dt.
 
         Steven Hudson >>

can you convert the HG stats to something that people who do not have HG can 
read?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:33:14 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Norfolk Class

In a message dated 99-05-10 07:42:05 EDT, you write:

<< Quick points.
 
 1000 dtons is a bad size for a military ship IMO. Too big for an expendable
 picket, too small to put real (bay/spinal) weapons on.

xxxx
Okay, what if I upped the missile launcher count?
xxxx
 
 In my strong opinion, a military ship should have enough armour to shrug
 off the biggest laser it expects to face. Lasers have a maximum output of
 TL*50 MJ. Unless you can do this, civilians can hurt you, and that is Bad.

xxxx
I have space left over so I could add more.
xxxx 

 A limiting factor on thrust has traditionally been compensator technology.
 TL 12 can build 3G compensators, so the crew of a 6G TL12 ship will likely
 be wearing three gees in all sorts of odd directions (random maneuvers to
 exploit speed-of-light lag and all that).

xxxx
Okay, but I think that the extra speed can be very importand during critial 
situations.
xxxx
 
 With only 525 MW of power, the thing cant stay in jump-3 space. J3 should
 cost about 75 MW per 100 dtons to stay in jumpspace, so the Norfolk class
 should mount at least 750 MW of power, plus about 50 to run life support,
 artificial gravity, the computers etc.

xxxx
Were is that rules for that? If so I'll up each one of the fusion genns to 
200Mw.
xxxx 

 I dont like small meson screens. Basically, meson guns will tend to be
 pretty big (1), so either get a chunky one or pray that you dodge.

xxxx
Okay, good point, I'll trade it in for a sand caster on N-damper.
xxxx
 
 Think about mounting more sandcasters in place of missiles or lasers,
 unless you have enough armour to be laser-proof. In my opinion you need 1
 sandcaster per expected enemy.

xxxx
Okay, I have a fair amount of cargo space, that could be converted into more 
sand casters, N-dampers and armor.
xxxx
 
 Welcome to geahead-land :)

xxxx
I'm happy to be here.
xxxx
 
 Ian Whitchurch 
 
 (1) I know, I know. Ditzie shoved a Spinal Meson Gun into one of Andrew
 Vallance's Jump-2 TL11 Interstellar Wars freighters. >>

Thanks for your comments, the Norfolk-i class patrol ship (its better than 
something smaller, but not as good as something larger)/Missile ship (this 
ship is based off of the Norfolk class destroyer).
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:34:05 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Population modelling

In a message dated 99-05-10 05:37:54 EDT, you write:

<< A year or so ago someone posted extracts from an animal husbandary paper on
 population diversity. There was a nice little equation in it that when you
 work it out the minimum number of sophonts you need to keep genetic diversity
 in the population (using the best posible breeding statergy) you end up with
 the answer of 26 (13 male and 13 female). This makes nearly all planetary
 populations in Traveller genetical viable.
 
 The paper is in the digests somewhere, I'll try and dig it out if I get the 
time.
  >>

Wow, 26, thats it? I think I can save a few tones on the genebank, alto I 
will stile have one for plants and one for animals.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:33:21 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Norfolk class Destroyer

In a message dated 99-05-10 06:08:06 EDT, you write:

<< >> Finally, your ship seems too cheap.
 >
 >SSDS give a 10% discount.
 
 Uh, my mistyping, I meant that you should be spending more on a combat ship,
 not that you'd calculated the price wrong.
 
 >> A rough guideline is civilian at 100KCr/dton, Military at 1MCr/dton.
 >> So your ship at 400LCr/dton falls into the paramilitary camp.
 >
 >with a total of 16 missile launchers and 20 laser turrets I would say that
 it 
 >military, alto paramilitary would also work.  Maybe as a "coast guard" ship 
 >or something?
 
 I could go with a "coast guard" or "police" vessel, but I need a role to
 justify the Jump-3. >>

Hunting Pirates or maybe a patrol vessel owned by a co-op of star systems.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:33:08 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Gene Bank

In a message dated 99-05-10 09:38:08 EDT, you write:

<< Why strands? It's far simpler to freeze lots of ova and sperm. 
 For 50k individuals, with lots of samples so you can continue 
 the cross-breeding program, I'd say you could get by with a 
 few dTons of space, plus whatever you need for refrigeration 
 equipment."
 
 	It only takes one cell to store a complete genome (set 
 	of genes), and 50,000 cells could be easily carried in 
 	your pocket.
 
 Peez
  >>
Why Strands: from this a moleular reproducer could copy the DNA paterns and 
create a clone or the ogrinal, using cells to carry the DNA would work.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 20:38:03 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fun with nukes

Steve Daniels wrote:

>What are the possible yields of a Briefcase Nuke?

A few kilotons at best. Cf. a heavy ICBM, with a single 25MT warhead.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:04:24 EDT
From: Optiko@aol.com
Subject: Re: Real-life Traveller weapon REF: X-ray machines

>It was bad reporting.  They were talking about the Glock 17 when it was
>introduced, but the Glock only has a polymer frame (with metal inserts) and
>the rest is all metal.  Besides, it's my understanding that a properly tuned
>airport x-ray machine can see a WATER pistol.  Can anyone confirm this?

Actually a new system is being gradually employed called BodyScan. It's not 
the same as a standard X-ray. It uses a different frequency beam. It can see 
just about anything on the body. Cocaine, water pistols, knives, guns. It 
gives you a wireframe-like image of the body. The only trouble is (IMRC) that 
it can't yet make a clear enough picture to set of alarms. It has to be 
checked by customs officials. I may be wrong though :)  .

~Op

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 12:50:38 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: G:T Far Trader stuff

> Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 05:48:08 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: G:T Far Trader stuff
> > The final issue is astrography - for example, Collace to Asteline 
> > is 8 parsecs in a straight line, but astrography enforces 10. 
> > This cuts what would be an 8 relationship to a 7.5.
> 
> Hmm. That's a good point. If I have to refigure distance based on 
> actual travel distance, that will modify this whole project. That 
> is a good question for those that figured this process out in the 
> first place. Well guys?

Distance is supposed to be along a practical route, although anything up to
Jump-4 is probably acceptable. Look at Emape and Raweh in Five Sisters:
they are 13 pc apart, not 6, because you can't routinely run cargo past the
interdiction of Andor and Candory. In most regions ignoring this won't make
very much difference.

> > >On page 14, it talks about different allegences will cause a -.5 
> > >to the bilateral trade number. What about client states to thier 
> > >overlords? Is there a drop in trade between an Imperial client 
> > >state and an Imperial world? Between Imperial client states?
> > 
> > I'd say 'no' - check out the discussion on Imperial Tariffs. Chris
> > Thrash or Jim Maclean would probably be the best people for a 
> > definitive answer though.
> 
> I am leaning towards thinking 'no' but would like for one of them 
> to verify that for me before I work out the actual query.

No. The allegiance factor represents two different barriers to trade:
border hassles (tariffs and restrictions) and incompatible industrial
standards. Neither of these should apply between the Imperium and its
client states (unless newly acquired), or what is the value of client
status?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:15:51 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea 

> 
> 
> "Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:
> 
> > > >The biggest thing has been the Drop-Tank Thread That Would Not Die, and
> > > >reviews/commentary of Far Trader.
> > >
> > >   Well, they are supposed to be an endurance-enhancing technology :)
> > 
> > Too many people want to use them as an endurance-replacing technology.
> > 
> >
> 
> Well I remember reading about the drop tank discussion as much as 2
> years ago.  I'm frankly surprised its still going.

That's because too many people wanna throw in their little 'rules fixes' to make things work the way they *want* to work.  IMNSFBHO, it's *more* interesting to let the downsides fall where they may and see the characters try to figure a way around them.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:18:12 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks

3 words...

            "It's a gazebo."
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:21:22 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Real-life Traveller weapon REF: X-ray machines

Xray machines at airports can see anything.  it's the metal detectors that the
plastic weapons try to fool.


> >It was bad reporting.  They were talking about the Glock 17 when it was
> >introduced, but the Glock only has a polymer frame (with metal inserts) and
> >the rest is all metal.  Besides, it's my understanding that a properly tuned
> >airport x-ray machine can see a WATER pistol.  Can anyone confirm this?

- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 10:18:28 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)

Sun, 09 May 1999 05:09:06 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>> Well, I wouldn't put a jump station outside of a gas giant.  I
>> would put it next to the main port.  But in any case, you basic
>> point that space is big is correct, but the enduring lesson
>> is that it is _hard_ to hit accidentally from any distance.

>A gas giant is about the best place to fill up your tanks.  No pesky aquatic
>natives around to give you any grief.  Thing is, though, there's not much
>water vapor percentagewise in a gas giant's atmosphere, so you'd likely be
>shipping LHyd not ice.  Unless of course you come up with a good way to
>freeze '
>LHyd and keep it solid for a couple years or so...

The point is that I'm not getting ice out of the gas giant.
Gas Giants have the same problem in that fuel as at the bottom
of this big gravity well (worse than the main world).  It is
much easier for a lone ship to go out to the Kuiper belt,
snag comets, and push them into orbits that bring them into
the inner solar system.  One ship can produce a steady stream
of these things.

>> The ice chunks would be "caught" and put in orbit around the
>> main world for later use.  You wouldn't be trying to catch
>> them just before use (which would require knowing when you
>> were going to jump months before hand when you "threw" them).

>That still means a lotta tonnage flying around in various orbits.  The
>easiest
>way to deal with it would be use low-energy Holmann transfer orbits.  Maybe
>*your* ship is leaving right now, but the iceteroids now leaving the gas
>giant
>will fuel somebody a year or so from now.  *SOMEBODY* will buy it, and any
>shortfalls in fuel can be brought up from the surface of teh main world.
>
>Thing is, you can do this stuff.  You just can't do it dirt cheep.

Make that a lot of tonnage flinging around in a narrow range of
orbits.  Orbits that, even in todays technology, are easy to
determine.  Of course you choose orbits that pass just outside
of the 100 diam limit (so they won't cross the path of ships
travelling out to the limit) until the thrusters kick in and
slow them down (in case they fail) an put them into some predetermine
plantary orbit for later retreival.

I don't know what you would call "dirt cheap" but it a way to make
it cheaper than having to bring fuel up from the main world.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:45:14 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)  (Was: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks)

Player 1:	"I don't know,  we need to set up a headquarters here in the 
ruins, but I don't want to go back to town to get a locksmith to fix the lock 
on this building."

Player 2: 	"I know let's put all our treasure into this wagon and have 
these two bandits we've enlisted take it back to town, buy some supplies and 
hire a lock smith."

Player 3	"great idea!"

	3 weeks later

Player One:  "Gee I thought they'd be back by now"

Player Two  "Me too"


					Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 21:01:26 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

At 05:05 PM 5/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>At 11:08 AM 5/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>>Scene: Large, well-defended warehouse on a zero-law level world.  Although
>>>the warehouse was heavily armored, the admin offices attached were not.
>>>
>>>"So what happens if we fill our [105 ton] hold with water and dump it on
>>>the building."
>>>
>>>The players finally decide that what they really need to do is hire a firm
>>>to *build a wall* around the warehouse to contain all the water.  According
>>>to one players calculation the water should fill the area inside the wall
>>>to a depth of 2-3 meters.
>>>
>>>I, of course, do my own calculation and come to a somewhat different
>>>conclusion.
>>>
>>>In the end the wall was built at considerable expense (instant foam-crete,
>>>the Galaxy's fastest building material!) the water was dumped (doing
>>>considerable damage to the adminstrative offices, and none at all to the
>>>warehouse) and the water sat in the very large walled area...at a depth of
>>>6cm.
>>>
>>>In the end (due to a distinct lack of "homework") it turned out the two
>>>type "T" meson guns weren't in the warehouse at all (this should give some
>>>people an idea of what adventure it was).  That being the obvious place.
>>>
>>
>>Why in god's green didn't they use kerocene or gasoline?  One flare gun
>>round and the problem would have gone 'up in smoke'.  If they used RDX
>>instead boom!
>>
>>Charles L.
>
>Well, considering there were no oceans of Kerosene or Gasoline around...
>
>

IIRC that world is fairly low TL.  Can you see them landind the March
Harrier at an exxon, the pilot leaning out and howling in Varga to the Varga
attendant to 'Filler up!'?

Those were two Type T meson guns after all...

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 21:10:51 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks

At 03:18 PM 5/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>3 words...
>
>            "It's a gazebo."



First time I read this one I was crying from laughing so hard.  I've played
with groups like that!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:10:57 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?

Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com> types:
>Along the same lines, several years ago I saw a TV news story stating
>that airport security were worried about a new pistol which was made
>entirely of non-metals (body pistol anyone?). I haven't heard anything
>about this though for several years, so I wonder if it was just bad 
>reporting.

   Serious case of bad reporting.  The device was designed to fire low
power tear gas charges.
It took two very underpowered .32 shells.  Standard rounds would cause it
to blow up, causing more damage to the firer than any attended target.

Bruce Johnson types:
>Oooh, haven't heard about the evil plastic glock in a while...
>Bad reporting, it was. The slide and parts of the reciever of the model
>in question were (iirc) made of some sort of plastic, however there was
>far more than enough metal in the thing to set off a metal detector.

   This is another separate issue.  The 'evil baby killing plastic Glocks'
(tm) had, as you stated, a plastic exterior, but the pistol's frame was
made of Titanium Steel.  This give it a very distinctive 'pistol outline'
in x-rays.  This was just one of the very many techical flaws in "Die Hard
2."  
   One of the non-technical flaws was having a closeup of a PacBell
telephone in a Washington, D.C. airport.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:12:00 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks

I still roll on the floor from that story.

Charles Prevatte wrote:

> At 03:18 PM 5/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >3 words...
> >
> >            "It's a gazebo."
>
> First time I read this one I was crying from laughing so hard.  I've played
> with groups like that!
>
> Charles L.

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:39:06 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

At 06:37 PM 5/10/99 +0000, you wrote:
>NO IT WILL NOT.  Data can not be executed.  It is meaning less to the
>LIMITED instraction set in the processor.  Just like a person can not act on
>all the data he recieves as all of it is not actionable.  A computer mush be
>able to tell what in instruction and what is data.

Actually, that's not true... The foundation of languages like LISP and Tcl
(and any other language where functions are 1st class data types) is that a
program is just data...  This is not true vice-versa.  Nothing will let you
execute a copy of your favorite novel, however a data file _can_ contain a
complete program.  The way to make a Virus like this, is to trick the
system somehow into executing the contents of the data file.  And this is
all assuming that computers work on the same general principles as today.  

Since Traveller science violates such things as the Laws of Gravitation and
Relativity, I don't see why they can't break such things as Turing machines... 

>
>It's very curtain.  The process has a fixed instruction set.  Even if it can
>be told to add new instructions latter it will have a fixed and non
>deleteable core instruction set that is the building blocks for all other
>instruction to be added later.  If this were not so them the device you are
>discibing is NOT a computer.  It come down to definitions.
>
>>optimizing compilers, and clock cycles will no longer exist.  I don't know
>
>NOT POSIBLE.  At some level the boot strap system has to be hard coded.


You are still making the assumption that it works the same.  Just because
TL7/8 computers have boot strap codes, it doesn't mean that TL12 ones will

>Then it is NOT a C-O-M-P-U-T-E-R.  It does NOT 'run programs'.  You have
>throw out all your reference points.  If you want to say it is a magic box
>that makes your wishes come true IYTU thats fine but if your solution to
>solve bad writting is to say that at TL15 tech is SO magical that we can not
>understand it you make technical character an imposibility as they can not
>act based on logical progression and the scientific method.
Not true.  A "computer", according to the Oxford English Dictionary, is "a
calculating-machine, especially an electronic device for performing
mathematical and logical operations."  There is nothing in there about
instruction sets or boot code.  A computer is defined by what it does, not
how it does it.  Just like we know that a Jump drive can move us a parsec a
week without understanding how it actually works, we can know that a
Complexity-4 computer (in GURPS) can run two complexity-4 programs.  It
doesn't matter how it runs them and what is actually going on inside, only
the effects matter.  Thus we know it can provide +5 bonuses to two ship
weapons,  without understanding the inner workings.

>I see now.  You are one of those gamer that believe that if it says so in
>'the book' it must be so.  Well if that is the case and you are not open to
>logical discussion then why are you discussing it here?  
No, as a matter of fact I'm not.  I do interpret and often change things
that don't make sense in the books.  However, we are talking about the OTU,
which is _only_ what is printed in the books.  IMTU, it's quite possible
that computers will require instruction sets and boot-strap code.  Clearly
this is true in YTU.  But not in the OTU.

>The book are all
>knowing and infallable but then virus and the original cannon adventure
>directly contradict each other.  Virus says is can reburn the computers
>inside their sealed chips cases but the adventure says there must be DIRECT
>contact with bare silicon to effect such a burn in.  Which 'book' is right?

Well, I can't comment on that since I don't actually have the books for
reference.  But I'm not arguing about how Virus should or should not work.
All I'm saying is that your TL7 assumptions are invalid when applied to
TL12 computers.


>Computer design and bootstraping the code is what I do for by dayly bread.
>I do it all from basic concept, to IC specification, to Gerber layout, to
>boot straping, to prototype testing, to control code crunching.  My nitch is
>as a one man design team for small to medium level custom integrated control
>systems.
Well, you certainly have more experience in this than I do.  However, that
experience is in design of _TL7_ machines, not TL12 ones.  

>Those future computers come from the minds of men.  Even assuming such
>advances as 'more than two state' processing systems (once much talked about
>but it fallen by the way side of late) and subatomic level circuits you
>still have to have instructions and data.
First off even the "minds of men" assumption isn't necessarily valid,
perhaps high TL computers are designed by other high TL computers.
However, I don't actually like that idea, so let's ignore it for a second.
I'm not saying that TL12 computer are incomprehensible to us.  If we
actually saw one and had it explained to us, I'm sure we'd  understand it
(It might require a few years at a TL12 university, but eventually we'd get
it.)  However, what we cannot do is predict _how_ it would work.  As an
example of this, consider Jules Verne' "20,000 leagues under the sea."  In
it, he predicted (correctly) that electrically powered submarines would
dominate future naval warfare.  The concept of the fast attack submarine
was valid, he got the "what".  However, he was not able to predict such
things a nuclear power plants and tomahawk missiles.  He didn't get the
"How".  Now I think he could learn it if a 1990s person explained them to
him, but he couldn't predict the how.  Same applies here.

>Is CS in this sentence computer science?
yes.

>What does NP-complete mean?  Not posible to complete?  If so I'll argue
>against that with the million monkey theorum.
<snip>
>polynomial time?  Can you define this for me?  Polynomial, in the context
>that I an use to, is a particural type of mathamatical formula.  Are you
>saying 'in a calulatable funtion of time' posibly based of Megflops?  If so
>that agrees with the million monkey theorum.

Polynomial time means that a program with input of size x, will take c(x^k)
iterations to execute with c and k as some arbitrary constants.  NP means
non-polynomial.  An NP program will take c'*(k'^x) iterations, for some
constants c' and k'.  On very large inputs, where x>>c,k,c',k', NP problems
take much longer than polynomial ones.  NP-complete is a large set of NP
problems that can be reduced to each other (in other words, if you can
solve one in polynomial time, you can solve them all in polynomial time).
Conventional approaches to computer design and programming have been unable
to solve any NP-complete problems in P time.  Quantum computer are believed
to be able to.  

This example is not actually relevant to the Virus discussion, but is
merely an example of how a basic assumption in CS (and NP-completeness is
pretty basic) doesn't hold true at higher TLs.

>Yes and no.  It is just a scale change.  The basic PROCESSOR will still be
>an intruction set sequential unit.  You might get to a massively parallel
>level with near instant vertical and/or horisontal condition branching so
>that in effect you have something done before you could have it done by
>today's standard (what people call intuition or nonlinear thought) but that
>is only if you look at it as a macro system.  At the base level there is no
>paradium change.  After all if you push the concept to its' limits you get
>the human brain. (Massively paralleled neural net with shared integrated
>data systems and hard coded instruction set, 'DNA'. )
Does a brain really have hard-coded instructions?  Are you sure?  Because
modern science certainly isn't.  We don't know how the brain works.
Parallel neural networks is _one_ way of approximating the brain, one that
we don't know is correct.  Maybe a brain has all the same parameters as a
Turing machine-based computer.   Maybe not.  And even if it does, a TL12
computer may still not have them.  The assumption that a high-TL computer
will work like the human brain is not necessarily true.  Maybe it works in
some other fashion.  Or maybe not.

>Changes to the macro effect does not nessecitate and micro paradiun change.
And likewise, similarities between macro effects don't necessitate
identical micro paradigms.  That's exactly my point.  Just because it acts
like a TL7 computer, doesn't mean it works like a TL7 computer.

>For example it is easy to run neural net software on a PC which has no
>neural net processors on board.  You can solve control problems by modeling
>an analog control system on a digital system and IMPROVE performace over the
>original analog system by adding digital algorithems.  This is synergy not
>tech. magic.  There is no magic in technology only the appearence of magic
>untill you understand the underlying processes.
All true.  So what?

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #600
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 10 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 601



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Virusbeard (Unix & C) declaration!
RE: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?
Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?
Re: PEEPER-Class Picket
Re: I'm back from sea
Re: I'm back from sea
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: Patrol Cruiser 
Re: I'm back from sea 
Re: PEEPER-Class Picket
Re: RPG Paranoia
Arque's Sands
Boom and Bust
Re: Drop tank numbers
Re: RPG Paranoia 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Economics of Service Stations 
RE: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?
RE: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?
Temporary sign-off
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:44:47 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Virusbeard (Unix & C) declaration!

At 06:38 PM 5/10/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Conclussion 1) From all the points above, a universal language.  Let's call
>it IC for Imperial C.  (One reason C is so big today is it's standardization
>and cross compilability)
>
>Conclusion 2) From all above, a univeral standard framework for IO to allow
>divers to be writen for IO and progams to access this IO.  Let's call it
>IDOS.  


Ah!!!!! The entire 3I runs on Windows 5120 and Visual Basic Vers. 276!!!!
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:45:32 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: RE: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?

At 11:45 AM 5/10/99 -0700, you wrote:
>It was bad reporting.  They were talking about the Glock 17 when it was
>introduced, but the Glock only has a polymer frame (with metal inserts) and
>the rest is all metal.  Besides, it's my understanding that a properly tuned
>airport x-ray machine can see a WATER pistol.  Can anyone confirm this?

The luggage x-ray machine can.  The metal detector you walk through cannot.

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- -- 
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:50:34 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?

> Besides, it's my understanding that a properly tuned
> airport x-ray machine can see a WATER pistol.  Can anyone confirm this?
> 

Consider it confirmed.  I did a lot of airport hopping a while back and
happened to see th x-ray screen; you can see everything in it.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:57:48 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: PEEPER-Class Picket

>From: SRKOALA@aol.com
>Subject: Re: PEEPER-Class Picket (was Re: Norfolk Class)
...
>can you convert the HG stats to something that people who do not have HG can 
>read?

  Not easily; 
>         FQ-1631331-000000-04000-0       MCr 73.992      130 tons
 NOTE! >     abcdefg

>         Cargo=0.6. LHyd=81.9. EP=3.9. Agility=0. Low=0. Crew=2. TL=C.

 a = size USP; 1 = 100-199 Dt
 b = configuration; 6 = flattened sphere
 c = Jump; 3 is max. at TL C at 4% of ship
 d = G's; 1G drive installed at 2% of ship
 e = power plant in % of ship DT produced as EP; =3, at 9% of ship at TL C
 f = computer level; 3, at 3 Dt, 18 MCr, and requiring 1 EP.
 g = crew level; 1 = 0-9 crew, 2 = 10-99, etc.

  The second string is defenses - none of this clay pigeon. The third string 
is offense; the four indicates the USP of any fusion gun batteries (only a
single battery allowed on a USP 1 hull).

  As the bridge is a minimum 20 Dt for a starship under CT/HG2, and the L-Hyd
supply is specified as 81.9 Dt, you can see that this ship is a courier with
little else attached.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:58:20 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: I'm back from sea 
...
>That's because too many people wanna throw in their little 'rules fixes' to
make things work the way they *want* to work.  IMNSFBHO, it's *more*
interesting to let the downsides fall where they may and see the characters
try to figure a way around them.

  And what downsides do drop tanks have for non-warships? The economic impacts
would be negligible if they had an increased chance of a misjump as Hans has
suggested - but they don't, at least not in HG2 (the last word in rules for the
T* edition that introduced them).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:08:10 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea

"Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:

> > Well I remember reading about the drop tank discussion as much as 2
> > years ago.  I'm frankly surprised its still going.
> 
> That's because too many people wanna throw in their little 'rules fixes' to make things work the way they *want* to work.  IMNSFBHO, it's *more* interesting to let the downsides fall where they may and see the characters try to figure a way around them.
 
Well, rules and mind-sets can be argued infinitively, unless all sides
agree to disagree.  After all, we all have our own ideas about game
mechanics.  As for myself, I don't subscribe to any but Classic
Traveller, but I will use the ideas I like from this list.  Especially
the ships posted.  I do have almost all the little black books and
supplements (Thank GOD I bought them when they first came out!)  I never
had a clue they would be next to impossible to dig up anymore.  I also
bought most of the Mega-Traveller stuff.  That Fire, fusion & etc and
Pocket Empires sounds good, but I unfortunately do not have access to
those materials.

You may ask why Classic Traveller, and I'd tell you : 'memories'.  I was
introduced to it in 1980 and we played it pretty heavy for a few years
before we all graduated and drifted apart.  The new material is nice,
but my heart forever belongs to Classic Traveller.  That CD Rom I heard
talk about 1.5 years ago with a compilation of all the good TML stuff
and the CT rules set, I hope they hurry up and get that out.  I couldn't
hardly wait 1.5 years ago, and I still feel that way!  :)

- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:33:55 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net> wrote:
>Hey Doug, what's our head count?

That depends if any of the attendees are called 'Zaphod'.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:35:23 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Patrol Cruiser 

 "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>   So this is how good CC2 makes Ship plans. I think I will have to Invest
>> in CC2.
>
>Too bad they don't do a Linux port.

Or MacOS...

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:31:05 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea 

 "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
>The Virus debate has flared up again.  I suggest volunteering for another
>tour, preferably on a sub, to avoid it.

Any billets...?

Hmm, the Virus debate annoys me more than the drop tanks; knowing some of
the participants in the drop tanks debate I view it as a mild blood sport.
Probably should be banned, but well, it's a while since the nth pirates
inferno.

Dom (why does cider taste like a soft drink?)

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:26:13 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: PEEPER-Class Picket

In a message dated 99-05-10 19:00:51 EDT, you write:

<<   Not easily; 
 >         FQ-1631331-000000-04000-0       MCr 73.992      130 tons
  NOTE! >     abcdefg
 
 >         Cargo=0.6. LHyd=81.9. EP=3.9. Agility=0. Low=0. Crew=2. TL=C.
 
  a = size USP; 1 = 100-199 Dt
  b = configuration; 6 = flattened sphere
  c = Jump; 3 is max. at TL C at 4% of ship
  d = G's; 1G drive installed at 2% of ship
  e = power plant in % of ship DT produced as EP; =3, at 9% of ship at TL C
  f = computer level; 3, at 3 Dt, 18 MCr, and requiring 1 EP.
  g = crew level; 1 = 0-9 crew, 2 = 10-99, etc.
 
   The second string is defenses - none of this clay pigeon. The third string 
 is offense; the four indicates the USP of any fusion gun batteries (only a
 single battery allowed on a USP 1 hull).
 
   As the bridge is a minimum 20 Dt for a starship under CT/HG2, and the L-Hyd
 supply is specified as 81.9 Dt, you can see that this ship is a courier with
 little else attached. >>

Okay, how about the design notes?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:51:02
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

At 09:42 AM 5/10/99 -0700, you wrote:

>OT: Hey which company do you work for? Don't want to be cussing at
>someone I know when I drive past the airport.

SuperShuttle (blue vans with yellow writing).  I'm always in 474, Kirsten
is in 489.  Wave if you see us.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 20:12:45 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Arque's Sands

Hi,
rember the novel that I was talking about? Here are the Prolog/Introduction 
and Chapter one. Comments, questions, ect are welcomed.
- ------------------------------Arque's Sands----------------------------
Araque's Sands
	"Just think of it as a camping trip"
		-Devin Marshall
	"Extinction is not an option"
		-The only rule of New Terra
"We came in peace, to flee a world being torn apart by war, we failed to 
leave our Past behind"
		-Last words of Jacob Kaylee

	"Why are the sands red?" the child, maybe six or seven, asked his 
grandparents as he looked out the Agri-dome's window to the heart of Kaylee 
Prime.
	"They are red because many people fought, and died, for that they 
believed in," the grandmother, one of the last survivors from Earth.  
Stereotypical Irish in appearance, the only blemishes on her otherwise 
perfect complexion a scare across her left hair line and flecks of silver in 
her fiery red hair.
	"How could that be?  All of the sands are red, a lot of people must 
have died to make them red," the child commented.
	"Yes, a lot of people died to get where we are now," the other 
grandparent said, looking out the window, events from the previous century 
playing though his mind.
	"How did it start," the child asked.
	"You be a curious little one, aye?"  the grandmother asked.
	"Yes," the child responded, "so how did it start?"
	"Well, I guess it be okay to tell you, it started just after we were 
thawed out, just past Araque VII..."

Chapter 1:
	Council Chambers NCS Pegasus, 2065 AD 1951
	"All I'm saying is that..." Alexander Tsing started.
	"I know exactly what you're saying, Mister Tsing, I don't want to 
hear it, meeting adjourned!" the chairman, Jacob Kaylee said as he stood up 
and left the room, his hands balled in anger.
	"Seems like a very reasonable man," another of the council members 
said to Tsing as he stood up and angrily put his things in order.
	"Kaylee doesn't know the fore end of a Robo-Miner from the aft end of 
a fusion rocket," Tsing said as he turned to look at the other member who was 
six years his junior.
	"Mister Tsing..." the other council member started to say as he 
suppressed a chuckle.
	"I believe that we are on better terms than that, Devin, call me 
Alex," the older council member said.
	"Alex, I know that you and Kaylee don't get along..." Devin said.
	"Kid, you have a pennant from understatement, Kaylee hates me because 
I speak out agents the stupid things that he does, I bet it goes back to the 
fact that I'm one of the few non-coalition members of the mission," Alex said.
	"No argument here, Alex, from your personality profile and what you 
have done here I'm willing to bet that you are planning to steal some of the 
supplies and colonists and start your own colony, am I correct?"  Devin said, 
omitting that Siobhan had put some of the pieces, really most of the pieces 
together, which would come in time, hopefully.
	"Now, kid what would give you that idea?"  Alex said, his face 
lighting up as he saw that there might be another volunteer.
	"Well, I had a few suspicions, Siobhan O'Keefe helped put the rest of 
the pieces together and the final confirmation came right now when I 
mentioned the idea," Devin said, if as on queue Siobhan O'Keefe walked though 
the door.
	"I'd been wondering what has been keeping you?" she said she strode 
in.
	"Uh, we were just talking about the future," Devin replied.
	"Is it true?" she asked.
	"Yes," Alex stated.
	"Do you have room for two more?"  Devin said as he took Siobhan's 
hand.
	"Yes, there is room for two more, have your things packed and ready 
by 2130 and meet at Colonist Transport III.  Oh, if you have access to any 
weapons, preferably non lethal please bring them, as Kaylee said there will 
be guards," Alex said softly.
	"We will be there, have a good day, Alex," Devin said as he ushered 
Siobhan though the door.
	"Is this really happening?" Siobhan asked as she walked hand in hand 
down the corridors of the massive ship, more than a thousand tons.
	"Is what really happening?" Devin said as he felt her headrest 
against his shoulder.
	"Are we really going to support Tsing?  Are we planin' to fight our 
way off of this ship and most likely participate in a war?" she said softly 
in her Irish Brogue.
	"Most likely.  We only have a short while to pack for this trip," 
Devin replied.
	Chuckling Siobhan said: "This is ironic, before the Pegasus project I 
had not even bern out side Europe, now I'm one of a handful of people that 
has crossed the galaxy."
	"Well, at least you don't have to deal with people who drive on the 
wrong side of the road," Devin said.
	"Ah, here we are, I'll see you back out here in a few minutes?" 
Siobhan said as she disconnected her self from Devin and walked though her 
cabin's door.
	Devin's eye followed her figure though the door, shook his head and 
walked though is door, the two suit cases and the backpack that the colonist 
were allowed to bring in personal stuff were quickly repacked.  Walking to 
the back of the room were the safe was he punched in the code to unlock it, 
in there was a low velocity rifle, perfect for use in areas were punching a 
big hole is something if you missed was very bad.  Picking the rifle up Devin 
loaded it and stuffed extra ammunition in his jump suits pocket.  Clearing 
the other contents of the safe out he put on the headset that would link to 
the rifle to aid in targeting and communications with other people and with 
the ship.  One he was loaded down with the equipment, most of which he did 
not know how to use very well as he was just an engineer, not one of the 
security officers like Siobhan he attached a Mag Lev Grapple (MLG) to Bucky, 
his Savant computer.  Attaching a length of nylon cord to his belt and the 
other end to the MLG, he walked out the door, the Savant computer in tow.
	"Ready to go?" Siobhan asked she looked Devin over, noticing that the 
safety was on and the rifle was not even connected to the headset.
	"I am, assuming that I don't have to use this," Devin said as he 
lifted the rifle up.
	"Okay, you know this ship better than most, what is the best way to 
get to the Colonist Lander?" Siobhan asked.
	After thinking for a second, "I would go for taking the elevator, but 
those are tracked, the best bet would be the zero g area in the center of the 
ship," Devin said as he started walking, scanning back and forth to see if 
anyone was coming.
	"Okay, right be hind you," Siobhan said as she walked after him.  
Setting the head set to display compiled thermal image of the corridor she 
had no need to look back and forth.
	"Here we are, "Devin said as he stopped before a door that was marked 
with warning of zero g environment, "Just step over the side and grab a hold 
of the MLG and hold on," he said as he opened the door and stepped over, the 
MLG following obediently behind.  Siobhan followed soon after and grabbed a 
hold of the device by one of its handles. "Are you ready?" Devin asked.
	"Yes, "came her nervous, but sincere, reply.
	"Hang on, " he suggested as he tapped a command which commanded the 
MLG to move under its own power, soon it began to slow as neared is pre 
programmed destination.
	"Open the door," Siobhan said as she released her self from the MLG 
and moved to the top of the door, or at least what would be the top of the 
door on the other side.
	"Okay," he said as he punched his access code to open the door, to 
his great astonishment nothing happened.  "Uh-oh."
	"What do you mean, 'uh-oh?"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:14:46 PDT
From: "Perceval Lowry" <perceval01@hotmail.com>
Subject: Boom and Bust

To the list,

First off, thanks to everyone who posted suggestions of T4 material 
for me.  I am now the owner of T4 softcover, M:0 Campaign, PE, CSC, 
and FFSv2.

The topic I've been thinking about:

Booms, Recessions, Depressions.

What factors would cause a subsector/sector wide boom or bust?

Are individual systems in a web of trade so diverse that they can 
easily weather the economic absence (from interdiction, internal 
dissent, or other cause) of any one?  Or does disruption of trade on 
one world cause a "domino effect" that ripples throught the system, 
subsector, and so on?  Or alternatively, how many systems have to 
fail before the whole sub/sector fails.

Likewise, do large scale economic upturns occur?  "Sector ### reported 
record profits by everyone this quarter."  Or 'gold rushes'?  
"Lanthanum was discovered in system####, whole sector reaps profits."

It would be interesting if the characters were suddenly faced with a 
sector-wide depression or boom.  Trade would fluctuate wildly.  
Fortunes could be made or lost.  Millionaires would end up selling 
apples on street corners.  You know the spiel.

The non-direct economic impact of military action would be very 
interesting to evaluate.  By non-direct I mean that what happens when 
your factory on planet XX is fine but your supplier or consumer gets 
blown up?  Or your competition?  Do systems pray for the arrival of 
naval ships "now I can sell that extra ton of vegetables/H2/armament", 
or do navy ships commandeer local supplies "they took my last ton of 
vegetables/H2/armament"?

Does the Imperium conscript (nationalize? Imperialize?) production 
- -"my toy gun factory makes the real thing now"- in wartime?  If so, on 
what scale?

I'd just like to hear the opinions- I certainly don't have the 
economic background to run any numbers.

- - Perceval

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:27:23 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tank numbers

>Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 22:37:19 -0400
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>

>David P. Summers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Drop tanks are cheaper than internal tankage.
>
>Well, then the ship without internal tanks should have been cheaper.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>They are, in a way. A 200dtn free trader minus 20dtns of internal fuel
>tanks only has to buy 180dtns of hull - that saves about 2MCr. Of course,
>those 20dTns of tanks would be much more durable and dependable if
>they were part of the hull instead of some welded-on gas cans.

Actually, they won't be welded on.  And there really isn't any
reason they should be less dependable.  We are talking "fuel
tanks" here.  Something we have mastered at TL 7.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 21:45:28 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia 

> Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net> wrote:
> >Hey Doug, what's our head count?
> 
> That depends if any of the attendees are called 'Zaphod'.

Whelp, kiss *THAT* keyboard g'bye...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 21:53:22 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
> ...
> >That still means a lotta tonnage flying around in various orbits.  The easiest 
> >way to deal with it would be use low-energy Holmann transfer orbits.  Maybe 
> ...
> >Thing is, you can do this stuff.  You just can't do it dirt cheep.
> 
>   You've heard of Traveller maneuver drives & fusion plants? And do you 
> realize what the interest cost on a fuel-rock floating for three months
> does to L-Hyd costs?
> 

Like I say, you can do it.  You just can't do it dirt cheap.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 21:58:42 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations (was ...Drop Tanks) 
> ...
> >Well, I *did* see a design for a 50 ton orbital tug in a High Passage once.  
> >Can't remember which issue, though.  Course, to move a 37KT rock, you'd need a 
> >*BIG* tug...
> 
>   HP4. Do you really believe what you said about tug size?

Yeah.  37KT's a big rock.  Rough guesstimate, a 1 KT tug that has 6G 
accelleration normally would have something on the order of a bit less than a 
sixth of a G when pushing a 37KT rock.

> ...
> >>   The fuel tanks aren't attached to the station; the station has a fully
> legal
> >> HG2 bridge allocation - although the gods (G.O.O.'s, etc.) know what it is or
> >> what they do with it. M1 isn't needed; a specialized pusher tug can provide
> >> fractional (well, micro...) G's as desired - we're doing corrections and
> long-
> >> term adjustments here, not trying to render dinosaurs extinct*.
> >
> >Just as long as those tanks *STAY* disconnected from the station.  No physical 
> >connections.
> 
>   Ahh - so if it actually touches they are physically destroyed for violating
> bridge requirements for a single vessel? I guess these means ships can't
> actually dock at stations?

Now you're being ridiculous.
 
> ...
> >So how big is your tug, and did you remember to allocate enough bridge space 
> >for it?
> 
>   Well, the unit from HP4 (rather inefficient, BTW) could supply just shy of
> 0.03 G's to a 10Kt station. This is a _50 Dt_ tug, of course. Do I need bridge
> space based on the planets volume if I attempt to land?

OK, lemme do some quick calcs here...  You're talking of an accelleration on 
the order of 30 cm/sec.  Gonna take you awhile to build up some delta vee with 
it so you'd best pack a lunch.

> >>   We seem to disagree about what's most efficient for minimizing traffic
> issues
> >> but you'll concede that one of the two approaches should work?
> >
> >'Working' was never the question.  Expense has always been the question.
> 
>   Ahh - and that would be why you keep insisting on only using the most
> expensive/least efficient techniques?

Because that's what the rules say.  Try taking them literally sometime.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:19:14 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?

Just noticed that flaw again since I picked up the DVD's.
Jesse



>This was just one of the very many techical flaws in "Die Hard
> 2."  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:19:16 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?

Yeah, I realise that.  But since the Glock's got a whole lot of metal in it
(along with all the other polymer framed guns out there), it'd still set it
off :)
Jesse


[snip]
> The luggage x-ray machine can.  The metal detector you walk
> through cannot.
>
>           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
> 	     Gearhead-in-Training
[snip really big sig :)  ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:02:21 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Temporary sign-off

Dear Folks -

Just a quick note to let you know I'm signing off for a little while -
pressures of RL, y'know. I've been enjoying some of the threads, too.

I think Charles' idea to create a "Virus Declaration" is a good move.

Ditto for drop tanks (its funny that Steven and Keven both agree that we
shouldn't allow drop tanks to have a big effect on the economics of the 3I
- - but are still arguing over the mechanism by which to curtail it!). A
Declaration would be useful for everyone, and Chris Thrash may even use it
- - I mean, the _Far Trader_ section on piracy has elements that are straight
out of the "Sunbeard Declaration"! If not, it looks like he will
unilaterally decide on the fate of drop tanks in the Starships book - so
now's your chance to have an effect on this portion of canon!

If these various Declarations can be hammered out, I recommend putting them
in the FAQ. Direct queries from any future posters to the FAQ in order to
circumvent more "cannon" wars.

(yes, that was intentional!  ;-)

Has the "Sunbeard Declaration" been put into the FAQ?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:00:40 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 

> ...
> >>   OK. Do you have any reason to believe that this makes sense in equivalent
> >> RW experience, or should in the OTU? Or IYTU?
> >
> >Beats me, but then, like I say, I've not seen anything to contradict it in the 
> >rules.  They flat out say the going rate is 1KCr/ton (CT/HG, dammit, *NOT* 
> >somebody's homegrown system)
> 
>   Seeings as you didn't complain about this stated assumption last weekend I
> can only assume that this utterly farcical argument means that you no longer
> have serious arguments left to you?

I didn't say anything about it because I *assumed* you figured I was going by 
the rules.  I assumed that because I *TOLD* you that earlier.
 
> ...
> >> >OK, but what are you basing your figures on?  I don't find *any*
> references in 
> >> >CT about charging more for higher jumps.
> >>   
> >>   Correct; IIRC the assumption of premium rates is a proviso that I've
> >> included in the discussion. To attempt to discuss the economics of the
> >> Traveller universe (which is, at least allegedly, fictional) in a serious
> >> fashion without that consideration seems pointless.
> >
> >House rule, eh?
> 
>   Please read the immediately preceding paragraph, possibly again?

I say again my last.  House rule, eh?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #601
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 11 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 602



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: You might not belive this... 
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
Re: one minor comment on Virus
Re: You might not belive this...
Re: Depreciation
3I raising military forces
The No-Contact Scabbard (was Re: Bayonets)
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks
RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?
Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?
Deckplans
Re: You might not belive this... 
Re: Wiccans in Space
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Economics of Service Stations
Re: one minor comment on Virus
Re: T4 to GURPS (was Re:  MT vs T4 Character Generation)
Re: Boom and Bust
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)
Re: Economics of Service Stations 
Re: I'm back from sea 
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:01:26 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: You might not belive this... 

> They're _EVERYWHERE!!!_ <gasp> They're worse than the damn Templars!!! Maybe
> they _are_ a Pengiun Templar plot. (Now _that's a scary thought...open source Templars...)
> 
> For those too lazy to do so, running this query produces "How do I learn about
> Scientology" as hit #4...

Ruh rho...
 
Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:15:05 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 

> On 09 May, Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> > > >Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
> > > ...
> > > >>  4) shippers provide J2+ service for same cost as J1 IYTU?
> > > >Yeah.  Prices are for 1 jump.
> > > 
> > >   OK. Do you have any reason to believe that this makes sense
> > > in equivalent RW experience, or should in the OTU? Or IYTU?
> 
> > Beats me, but then, like I say, I've not seen anything to contradict
> > it in the  rules.  They flat out say the going rate is 1KCr/ton
> > (CT/HG, dammit, *NOT*  somebody's homegrown system)
> 
> Unfortunately, the logic of this is that all freight moves across
> the Imperium at J-1, since a J-1 ship will be cheaper than a J-2+
> ship for any given cargo volume. The cost of shipping anything 6
> parsecs is thus 6xJ-1, ie 6KCr/ton and takes 6 weeks.

Unless the local governments subsidise the long haul freight, which I believe 
is the point of the 'subsidised merchant' vessels.  And if you wanna debate 
whether or not this is feasible, I refer you to any copy of the Wall Street 
Journal where you'll find out about all *KINDS* of subsidies the gov gives 
corporations if you just keep reading long enough.
 
> If you assume that Imperial law means that you cannot have a J-6
> ship that will do the trip in 1 week at (say) 4KCr then ecconomics
> ensures that there won't be a service that does the trip in 1 week
> at 1KCr.

Like I said earlier, I was under the impression that long haul freighting was 
pretty much subsidised.  Obviously it exists, or there would *be* no Jump-3 
capable ships like the subsidised liner around.
 
> However, if you are shipping speculative cargo, you can ignore the
> standard freight charges and redo all the sums based on a speculative
> cargo profit (which you would have to calculate for each system).

I've seen circumstances where characters owning a stake in a sub merch shipped 
spec cargo as freight then sold it at its destination for a hefty profit.  It 
was just a good way of screwing the gov out of its cut

> The likely revenue for speculative cargo is far more than 1KCr/ton/Jump.

If it isn't, somebody's doing something wrong.
 
> As a rough guess, if trader A uses commercial freight services at
> 1KCR/ton/Jump, he is paying 6KCr/ton to hav his freight delivered
> 6 parsecs and since it is being loaded and off loaded at 5 intermediate
> ports, it will take about 12weeks to make the trip.

You're assuming it's being hauled in a J1 ship.  If he ships it via a J3 
subsidised liner, he can get it there in mebbe 3 weeks for 2KCr/ton.
 
> Trader B can then save money by using his own ship and shipping the
> same cargo as speculative goods. He will then make a profit if the
> cost is less than 6KCr/ton. Since you have to balance the number
> of trips per year and the cost per trip, my guess is that trader B
> will make the most money with J-6 drop tank ships.

This I don't get.  "J6 drop tanks"?  You mean, the ship is supposed to go Jump 
6 and have all its jump fuel in tanks?
 
> So the logical conclusion of the CT trade rules is that there is
> actually no significant long distance freight. Instead all long
> distance trade is cargo carried aboard ships owned by the trading
> company.

Pretty much the impression I get from the trade rules in CT.  After all, Free Traders are just picking up the odd lots laying around that the megacorps don't or can't get to right now.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:36:40 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

>NO IT WILL NOT.  Data can not be executed.  It is meaning less to the
>LIMITED instraction set in the processor.  Just like a person can not act on
>all the data he recieves as all of it is not actionable.  A computer mush be
>able to tell what in instruction and what is data.

I hate to wade into a Virus flamewar, but you are aware of all the OS bugs
that
let long addresses, subject lines, or other parts of email messages spill over
into other pieces of memory and get executed as code, aren't you?

Or one could remember the Cornell Worm...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:42:00 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: You might not belive this...

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> > They're _EVERYWHERE!!!_ <gasp> They're worse than the damn Templars!!! Maybe
> > they _are_ a Pengiun Templar plot. (Now _that's a scary thought...open source Templars...)
> >
> > For those too lazy to do so, running this query produces "How do I learn about
> > Scientology" as hit #4...
>
> Ruh rho...

It's all a plot...

Like How come Flights to Malasya are cheaper than Kiwi Land?

'corse I want to go to malaysa

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:02:48 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Depreciation

Dave Nelson wrote:

>Perhaps  starships are not a depeciating asset, as automobiles
>are, but rather retain most of their value, as houses and other
>real property do (makes it easier to run a campaign this
>way--who cares how old it is, if it works then full price)

   Homeowners don't usually depreciate their homes (if well-
maintained, these often increase in value over the duration of
ownership), but businesses usually do depreciate buildings. OTOH,
land is assumed to have an infinite useful life and is not
depreciated.
   In the absence of RW experience on useful starship lifetimes,
you make your own guess: I'd go with a 50-150 year average.
   Then there is the question of salvage value. In certain
quarters, there are salvage dealers that strip and resell the
more valuable systems and turn the rest into scrap. (Going rate for a
system is 50% OEM new price if the dealer has it at all, caveat emptor.)
From time to time, starships are sold for scrap that could be refurbished
and put back into service. Such deals are infrequent and require
considerable time, cash, starship architecture skill, and sweat.
On some worlds, there are small businesses that eke out a meager
profit doing just that with the leavings of megacorporations.
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:41:11 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: 3I raising military forces

> From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>

> he gets sent to.) I depends on whether or not the Imperium is a free
> society, with volunteer forces, or does the 3I conscript its soldiers?

We know from Books 1 and 4 that the Imperium does in fact conscript
personnel for all uniformed branches (including Scouts).  We also know
from Book 4 and Fifth Frontier War (among other sources) that Imperial
member states have their own forces.  That suggests a hybrid, ad hoc
type of arrangement, in which the needs of the Imperium come first.  If
the Imperium needs to conscript some personnel in your sector or even
your world, it has the right to do so.  If, then, the member state needs
to conscript personnel, it can do so according to its own laws.  On the
other hand, any citizen of appropriate age may volunteer for Imperial
service, and the member state of which he is a citizen cannot prevent
it.  The Imperium may of course decide not to take any volunteers from
certain places at certain times because of its own needs.   

I deleted your discussion of feudal vs. professional raising of armies. 
In my Traveller universe, that is a historical progression.  In early
Imperial times, local lords (descended in title and concept if not in
actual genes from the Terran officials who were sent to run parts of the
Ziru Sirka after the end of the Interstellar Wars) raised armies and
navies as well as they could for local defense, with Imperial subsidies
and assistance (like training) to the extent the Imperium could and
would provide it.  These forces became "Imperialized" in the event of
hostilities, according to the needs of the Imperium.  After the Civil
War, in part to reduce the power of the nobility, professional military
and naval forces were developed.  Citizens of member states could join
the Imperial forces, which were integrated across regions and cultures
to the extent practicable, and which owed allegiance to the Emperor,
rather than some noble.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:59:23 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: The No-Contact Scabbard (was Re: Bayonets)

> From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
> Subject: Re: Bayonets
> 
> >A GURPS Monowire sword/knife/bayonet would be effective against BD that's
[deletion]
 
> The stress on a wire is inversely proportional to its cross-section area.
[deletion]

> Therefore, to make anything impervious to a monowire sword just coat it
> with a microthin layer of the same material the sword is made of. No matter
> how strong the material, the force required to cut through is more than the
> force holding your sword together.

Another approach to carrying a super-sharp weapon is a scabbard that is
not in contact with the blade.  For example, if the blade has a blood
gutter, the scabbard could have internal ridges that fit in the blood
gutter and hold it securely in place in the scabbard.  Then the part of
the scabbard that is near the blade could be a safe distance away and
not be cut by the blade.  Just be a little careful inserting the blade.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 20:24:32 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks

> From: Krazy Kat <krazykat_13@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)  (Was: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks)
> 
> - --- Mark Preston <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > How about the thief who pulled off a good burglary at the local manor but
> > just couldn't resist  downing the brandy while he was there. On the way out,
 
> I recall reading in Reader's Digest about a similar thing that happened in Arizona 
> where a burglar, after going through the house, busted into the liquor cabinet
> and guzzled down a bunch of vodka. When the houseowners returned, they found said 
> burglar still out like a light.

He's luckier than the burglar in the story I heard some years ago.  If I
remember it correctly, a thief broke into a house and beat up the old
couple who lived there, then demanded their valuables.  The husband led
him to another part of the house, and got the burglar to precede him
into the garage.  The husband locked the door on him and went to attend
his wife and call the paramedics.  He neglected to tell the paramedics
about the burglar and the two Rottweilers in the garage until they were
on the way to the hospital.  The story may be apocryphal -- after all, I
don't recall reading it in a newspaper or other somewhat reliable
source.

Ob Traveller:  Polite robbers get more sympathy.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 20:27:47 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?

> From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
> Subject: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?

> For the full story, go to the following site:
> 
> http://www.artigen.com/newswire/scitech.html
> 
> and select the May 9th link entitled:
> 
> "Ray Gun Freezed Victims Without Causing Injury".

It's difficult for me to give credence to an article with a gross
grammatical error in the headline.  It should be "Ray Gun Froze Victims
..." or "Ray Gun Freezes Victims ..."

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 20:55:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?

On Mon, 10 May 1999, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> It's difficult for me to give credence to an article with a gross
> grammatical error in the headline.  It should be "Ray Gun Froze Victims
> ..." or "Ray Gun Freezes Victims ..."

The actual article is titled as the later. The original poster simply made
an error in transcribing it. It's worth looking at, IMO.

Brannon

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:58:28 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Deckplans

I've added a few more deckplans to my site.

I now have...
    Challenge Magazine #25 / Marc Miller's 5000 ton "Sloan" Class Fleet
Escort
    GURPs Traveller Aliens I's "Chtanoql" Class 100ton Zhodani Scout
    GDW / Expedition to Zhodane's "Rock" 300 Ton Asteroid Ship

    plus deckplans 17 other ships...

See:
http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/CC2.html

Paul Schirf
Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:57:45 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: You might not belive this... 

In a message dated 99-05-10 22:09:21 EDT, you write:

<< Ruh rho... >>

Ruh rho?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 00:14:47 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Wiccans in Space

Yah, Yah, trying to figure out how to describe the "Green" jump drive.

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 21:23:33 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
...
>>   You've heard of Traveller maneuver drives & fusion plants? And do you 
>> realize what the interest cost on a fuel-rock floating for three months
>> does to L-Hyd costs?
>
>Like I say, you can do it.  You just can't do it dirt cheap.

  You feel that Cr 10-15 per Dt is a fairly burdensome expense for
transporting L-Hyd from a GG to a large-scale shipping facility up
to a quarter of a year away?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 21:23:48 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 
...
>> >Well, I *did* see a design for a 50 ton orbital tug in a High Passage
once.  
>> >Can't remember which issue, though.  Course, to move a 37KT rock, you'd
need a 
>> >*BIG* tug...
>> 
>>   HP4. Do you really believe what you said about tug size?
>
>Yeah.  37KT's a big rock.  Rough guesstimate, a 1 KT tug that has 6G 
>accelleration normally would have something on the order of a bit less than a 
>sixth of a G when pushing a 37KT rock.

  Sounds right. Further, it sounds _reasonable_. Is there a need a for a 30
to 40Kt service station to have a full 1-G constant maneuver establishment?
In fact, is it _impossible_ to use the M-1 rating (2% at MCr 1.5/Dt of drive)
to install a sub-1.0 G maneuver drive on such a station?

...
>> >Just as long as those tanks *STAY* disconnected from the station.  No
physical 
>> >connections.
>> 
>>   Ahh - so if it actually touches they are physically destroyed for violating
>> bridge requirements for a single vessel? I guess these means ships can't
>> actually dock at stations?
>
>Now you're being ridiculous.

  So you retract the stipulation that tugs should have bridge allocations
(IYTU?) based on the object they're pushing? (see your point 10 lines up)

...
>>   Well, the unit from HP4 (rather inefficient, BTW) could supply just shy of
>> 0.03 G's to a 10Kt station. This is a _50 Dt_ tug, of course. Do I need
bridge
>> space based on the planets volume if I attempt to land?
>
>OK, lemme do some quick calcs here...  You're talking of an accelleration on 
>the order of 30 cm/sec.  Gonna take you awhile to build up some delta vee with 
>it so you'd best pack a lunch.

  Oops - sorry - I thought "micro-gees" and "0.03 G's" was specific enough. Is
there a compelling reason why such a station should need 6-G/Agility 6?  :|

...
>> >'Working' was never the question.  Expense has always been the question.
>> 
>>   Ahh - and that would be why you keep insisting on only using the most
>> expensive/least efficient techniques?
>
>Because that's what the rules say.  Try taking them literally sometime.

  Play nice! What rules am I violating? I admit that I'm using them properly,
and that I've actually read them, and I don't see that your failure to do so
is my problem.
  
  IIRC, the evolution of what might be described as your position on such
stations was that they were too expensive, to which point you cited some
truly staggering (not in the context of the trade volumes involved, which
also makes one wonder) costs, which you then attempted to substantiate on
the basis of some of the most useless station concepts imaginable. These
clearly ill thought out objections were proven false by simple use of the
rules of choice, although I suspect that a number of other systems could
be used to the same effect.
 
  After a few intermediary statements ("fall-back positions"?) you're now
claiming that tugs can't be used because they would have to have bridge 
allocations based on the pushee, and presumably that further it is quite
inconceivable to have an item of industrial infrastructure use any concept or
stat from HG2 without being designed as a full-blown starship or large craft?

        Steven Hudson

 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 00:50:54 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

In a message dated 99-05-10 22:39:15 EDT, you write:

<< I hate to wade into a Virus flamewar, but you are aware of all the OS bugs
 that
 let long addresses, subject lines, or other parts of email messages spill 
over
 into other pieces of memory and get executed as code, aren't you?
 
 Or one could remember the Cornell Worm... >>

What is a worm (computer, not Earth)?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 99 00:15:00 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: T4 to GURPS (was Re:  MT vs T4 Character Generation)

On 05/10/99 at 11:17 AM,  Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> said:

>>all the skills "average skills" in GURPS terms...right?  And that
>>makes sense in a conversion, seeing as Traveller scales all the
>>skills the same.

>Not quite.  You see, I've made kept the normal GURPS difficulty for
>skills, and simply gave different number of points for different
>difficulties.  For example, if a T4 character has Dex 7, Shotgun-1,
>then in GURPS, they get DX 10, Guns(shotgun) 9.  Guns is
>Physical/Easy so they get .5 points in it. If they also had Bow
>Combat-1, then under GURPS they'd get Bow 9.  However, Bow is a
>Physical/Hard skill, so they just got 2 points in it.  

>This does mean that having a lot of T4 skills that turn out to be
>hard GURPS skills makes for a more expensive character, but then
>again, that makes sense...

Well, if you are counting points that's true. OTOH, I don't count points. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 02:06:37 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Boom and Bust

In a message dated 99-05-10 21:30:23 EDT, you write:

<< First off, thanks to everyone who posted suggestions of T4 material 
 for me.  I am now the owner of T4 softcover, M:0 Campaign, PE, CSC, 
 and FFSv2. >>

Were did you find FFSv2 and do they have another?
- -STephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:09:16 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
...
>> >>   OK. Do you have any reason to believe that this makes sense in
equivalent
>> >> RW experience, or should in the OTU? Or IYTU?
>> >
>> >Beats me, but then, like I say, I've not seen anything to contradict it
in the 
>> >rules.  They flat out say the going rate is 1KCr/ton (CT/HG, dammit, *NOT* 
>> >somebody's homegrown system)
>> 
>>   Seeings as you didn't complain about this stated assumption last weekend I
>> can only assume that this utterly farcical argument means that you no longer
>> have serious arguments left to you?
>
>I didn't say anything about it because I *assumed* you figured I was going by 
>the rules.  I assumed that because I *TOLD* you that earlier.

  In that case we've just _proved_ conclusively that not only do high-speed
freighters not exist in the Traveller universe, but that luxury liners are
also clearly impossible, as they _couldn't_ charge more than the Book 2 rates
without invoking the terminal displeasure of the attendant Imperial Kommissar.
Good work, eh, Brain? So what are we going to do tomorrow night?

...
>> >> >OK, but what are you basing your figures on?  I don't find *any*
>> references in CT about charging more for higher jumps.
>> >>   
>> >>   Correct; IIRC the assumption of premium rates is a proviso that I've
>> >> included in the discussion. To attempt to discuss the economics of the
>> >> Traveller universe (which is, at least allegedly, fictional) in a serious
>> >> fashion without that consideration seems pointless.
>> >
>> >House rule, eh?
>> 
>>   Please read the immediately preceding paragraph, possibly again?
>
>I say again my last.  House rule, eh?

  Nope - I included the necessary loop-holes in my original analyses. It
appears that IYTU freight cannot - possibly for religious or metaphysical
reasons? - be moved for a fee exceeding KCr 1.0/Dt/Jump, and that therefore
all such concepts as express freight or premium charges for service are
incompatible with the laws of physics.

  Admittedly, when next I do run a Traveller campaign I'll be structuring
it such that normal human economic behaviour will have the opportunity to
be rational and intelligently explored.

  Feel free to comment if you have any cogent observations to make on
the shipping economics/drop tank issues.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 02:11:12 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 
> ...
> >> >Well, I *did* see a design for a 50 ton orbital tug in a High Passage
> once.  
> >> >Can't remember which issue, though.  Course, to move a 37KT rock, you'd
> need a 
> >> >*BIG* tug...
> >> 
> >>   HP4. Do you really believe what you said about tug size?
> >
> >Yeah.  37KT's a big rock.  Rough guesstimate, a 1 KT tug that has 6G 
> >accelleration normally would have something on the order of a bit less than a 
> >sixth of a G when pushing a 37KT rock.
> 
>   Sounds right. Further, it sounds _reasonable_. Is there a need a for a 30
> to 40Kt service station to have a full 1-G constant maneuver establishment?
> In fact, is it _impossible_ to use the M-1 rating (2% at MCr 1.5/Dt of drive)
> to install a sub-1.0 G maneuver drive on such a station?

If you've got it parked around a gas giant and you want to move it to the 100 
diameter jump limit in 24 hours, yeah.  You'll *need* 1G accelleration due to 
the distances involved, approximately 10 million klicks.

> >> >Just as long as those tanks *STAY* disconnected from the station.  No
> physical 
> >> >connections.
> >> 
> >>   Ahh - so if it actually touches they are physically destroyed for violating
> >> bridge requirements for a single vessel? I guess these means ships can't
> >> actually dock at stations?
> >
> >Now you're being ridiculous.
> 
>   So you retract the stipulation that tugs should have bridge allocations
> (IYTU?) based on the object they're pushing? (see your point 10 lines up)

So you're using the *station* now as a tug?  Interesting.  IIRC, the 50 ton 
tug has a fairly heavy computer.  Mod 3?  Mod 4?
 
> ...
> >>   Well, the unit from HP4 (rather inefficient, BTW) could supply just shy of
> >> 0.03 G's to a 10Kt station. This is a _50 Dt_ tug, of course. Do I need
> bridge
> >> space based on the planets volume if I attempt to land?
> >
> >OK, lemme do some quick calcs here...  You're talking of an accelleration on 
> >the order of 30 cm/sec.  Gonna take you awhile to build up some delta vee with 
> >it so you'd best pack a lunch.
> 
>   Oops - sorry - I thought "micro-gees" and "0.03 G's" was specific enough. Is
> there a compelling reason why such a station should need 6-G/Agility 6?  :|

If you want to move a station from a close orbit of a large gas giant, where 
it's more easily fueled up, to the 100 diameter jump limit for that gias 
giant, you need 1G to get it out there in a day.  Jesus, do the math already.

> >> >'Working' was never the question.  Expense has always been the question.
> >> 
> >>   Ahh - and that would be why you keep insisting on only using the most
> >> expensive/least efficient techniques?
> >
> >Because that's what the rules say.  Try taking them literally sometime.
> 
>   Play nice! What rules am I violating? I admit that I'm using them properly,
> and that I've actually read them, and I don't see that your failure to do so
> is my problem.

You keep wanting to make permenant structures from throwaway components.  Now 
you're telling me that a small tug, on the order of mebbe 100 tons or less, 
should be able to push this 37KT rock at a reasonable speed?
   
>   IIRC, the evolution of what might be described as your position on such
> stations was that they were too expensive, to which point you cited some
> truly staggering (not in the context of the trade volumes involved, which
> also makes one wonder) costs, which you then attempted to substantiate on
> the basis of some of the most useless station concepts imaginable. These
> clearly ill thought out objections were proven false by simple use of the
> rules of choice, although I suspect that a number of other systems could
> be used to the same effect.

It's a big station.  It holds over 30KT of fuel, enough fuel to move 300KT of 
cargo 1 parsec.  You were expecting maybe to store all that fuel in a shoebox??
  
>   After a few intermediary statements ("fall-back positions"?) you're now
> claiming that tugs can't be used because they would have to have bridge 
> allocations based on the pushee, and presumably that further it is quite
> inconceivable to have an item of industrial infrastructure use any concept or
> stat from HG2 without being designed as a full-blown starship or large craft?

No, I'm not.  You're saying you can have a small core with lots of rock tanks around it and stay legal even though you violate the 2% bridge rule.  I'm saying you can't, not as a permenant structure.  I specified a moveable station, designed as a nonstarship, that would ferry fuel out to the jump point in reasonable time frames.  I even based it on your hollow rocks.  I just didn't look for any quasilegal loopholes to jam them through.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 02:16:18 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea 

In a message dated 99-05-10 19:05:58 EDT, you write:

<< Dom (why does cider taste like a soft drink?) >>

Dr Pepper is based on prune juice.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:26:58 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)

Aahh, the Traveller Adventure...

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: Peter H. Brenton <pbrenton@mit.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, May 10, 1999 6:45 AM
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)


>
>>This collection of stories would make a great web site somewhere. (I
>>particularly like the one where the players decided to drop a cargo-hold
>>full of water onto the warehouse... though I don't recognize the
adventure.)
>
>The (only) clue is the two stolen type "T" Meson guns.
>
>Pete
>
>
>                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
>"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
>  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)
>
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #602
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 11 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 603



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Patrol Cruiser 
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: You might not belive this...
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics  of Drop Tanks)
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: You might not belive this... 
Re: Economics of Service Stations 
RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?
RE: Economics of Service Stations 
Re: You might not belive this...
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: You might not belive this... 
Re: Economics of Service Stations 
Re: You might not belive this...
Re: You might not belive this... 
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: Drop Tank Numbers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 02:29:45 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Patrol Cruiser 

> On 05/10/99 at 01:49 AM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> said:
> 
> >> 
> >>   So this is how good CC2 makes Ship plans. I think I will have to Invest
> >> in CC2.
> 
> >Too bad they don't do a Linux port.
> 
> Keven, they may not need to. Go to www.bochs.com and see how to run win98 in Linux, and while running win98 run all the windows programs.  Check out the snapshots on some of the sites showing Windows and Win apps running in a window *inside* of Linux and OS/2!
> 
> Now, I haven't had a chance to *try* this and it might be slow, Slow SLOW, but it also might be fast enough...eventually, to be a really *killer* app. ;->

I'm gonna have to take some time and RILLY check this out.  Looks 
interesting...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 02:36:09 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks

In a message dated 99-05-10 17:22:21 EDT, you write:

<< I still roll on the floor from that story.
 
 Charles Prevatte wrote:
 
 > At 03:18 PM 5/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
 > >3 words...
 > >
 > >            "It's a gazebo."
 >
 > First time I read this one I was crying from laughing so hard.  I've played
 > with groups like that!
 >
 > Charles L. >>

I just shake my head and wonder if they need UV lights or Vitamin E pills.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:36:44 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

>>>4) What sane person would let unknown persons remote load a progam and
>>>remote ececute it on their ships main computer?
>>
>>Java programmers!!!
>>
>>Sorry, I agree with everything you said in your post, but couldn't pass up
>>a straight line like that...
>
>Who could?
>
>Java's not so bed IF you only alow it a partial comand set.  Giving
external
>programs or applets disk or IO access is insane.  At the most they should
>only be allow for screen control (animation and fill in the data)
formating.
>Beyond that you're begging for hackers!

Actually it's fine if you don't allow access to  host OS disk and IO.
Operating on virtual files/ persistant objects within the JVM could be made
completely safe. That's not to say current implementations are, but if
you've ever done any work on "hosted" operating systems, you'd know it's
quite possible to write one that is incapable of inflicting damage outside
of it's own environment.

The Solaris implementation of Minix is an example.

Virus is quite possible if one asumes that even military starships run
operating systems written by Microsoft.
However, given Vilani conservatism, I don't see how that would ever be the
case, Microsoft (even in two thousand years) is far too young a company to
be given military contracts.

<grin>

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 02:42:14 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
> ...
> >> >>   OK. Do you have any reason to believe that this makes sense in
> equivalent
> >> >> RW experience, or should in the OTU? Or IYTU?
> >> >
> >> >Beats me, but then, like I say, I've not seen anything to contradict it
> in the 
> >> >rules.  They flat out say the going rate is 1KCr/ton (CT/HG, dammit, *NOT* 
> >> >somebody's homegrown system)
> >> 
> >>   Seeings as you didn't complain about this stated assumption last weekend I
> >> can only assume that this utterly farcical argument means that you no longer
> >> have serious arguments left to you?
> >
> >I didn't say anything about it because I *assumed* you figured I was going by 
> >the rules.  I assumed that because I *TOLD* you that earlier.
> 
>   In that case we've just _proved_ conclusively that not only do high-speed
> freighters not exist in the Traveller universe, but that luxury liners are
> also clearly impossible, as they _couldn't_ charge more than the Book 2 rates
> without invoking the terminal displeasure of the attendant Imperial Kommissar.

Fascetiousness ill becomes you, Steven.  I've never considered charging more 
for longer jumps because I've assumed long hauls were subsidised.  It makes 
sense to me that they would be.  As far as high buck tickets on luxury liners 
go, no character in any game I've ever reffed got on one, so I never bothered 
to ponder the implications.

> Good work, eh, Brain? So what are we going to do tomorrow night?

We're going to develope you a sense of humour.

> >> >> >OK, but what are you basing your figures on?  I don't find *any*
> >> references in CT about charging more for higher jumps.
> >> >>   
> >> >>   Correct; IIRC the assumption of premium rates is a proviso that I've
> >> >> included in the discussion. To attempt to discuss the economics of the
> >> >> Traveller universe (which is, at least allegedly, fictional) in a serious
> >> >> fashion without that consideration seems pointless.
> >> >
> >> >House rule, eh?
> >> 
> >>   Please read the immediately preceding paragraph, possibly again?
> >
> >I say again my last.  House rule, eh?
> 
>   Nope - I included the necessary loop-holes in my original analyses. It
> appears that IYTU freight cannot - possibly for religious or metaphysical
> reasons? - be moved for a fee exceeding KCr 1.0/Dt/Jump, and that therefore
> all such concepts as express freight or premium charges for service are
> incompatible with the laws of physics.

Actually, nobody's *tried* moving freight over 1 parsec IMTU and had to pay 
for it.  So the topic of premium service, et. al., simply hasn't come up yet.
 
>   Admittedly, when next I do run a Traveller campaign I'll be structuring
> it such that normal human economic behaviour will have the opportunity to
> be rational and intelligently explored.

Don't forget to factor in government interference.
 
>   Feel free to comment if you have any cogent observations to make on
> the shipping economics/drop tank issues.

You have my comments on pure-drop tankage, probably on file.  And despite your 
attempts to swing things in tangentical directions, the facts remain that an 
80 ton drop tank will still cost 90KCr dry, and *still* need to be filled.

Keven


Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 02:43:46 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
> ...
> >>   You've heard of Traveller maneuver drives & fusion plants? And do you 
> >> realize what the interest cost on a fuel-rock floating for three months
> >> does to L-Hyd costs?
> >
> >Like I say, you can do it.  You just can't do it dirt cheap.
> 
>   You feel that Cr 10-15 per Dt is a fairly burdensome expense for
> transporting L-Hyd from a GG to a large-scale shipping facility up
> to a quarter of a year away?

It's not zero, is it?  Remember, you're shipping a *LOT* of fuel.  It adds up.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:44:07 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

>NO IT WILL NOT.  Data can not be executed.  It is meaning less to the
>LIMITED instraction set in the processor.

Charles, while you are correct in saying that an instruction that is not
recognized can not be excuted , it is incorrect to asume from that premise ,
that data cannot be executed.

Data _can_ be executed _if_ it's bytes represent valid instructions.

Back in the old days we used to store code in the VDU (Visual Display Unit)
memory, and it was always a challenge to write code that _looked_ like, say
an aircraft cockpit when viewd as data.

There was also a competition to write a "good" poem that wqas also a
"useful" program when executed

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:52:08 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: You might not belive this...

><< Ruh rho... >>
>
>Ruh rho?

Ruh rho, Shaggy.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 02:54:56 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics  of Drop Tanks)

> Sun, 09 May 1999 05:09:06 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >> Well, I wouldn't put a jump station outside of a gas giant.  I
> >> would put it next to the main port.  But in any case, you basic
> >> point that space is big is correct, but the enduring lesson
> >> is that it is _hard_ to hit accidentally from any distance.
> 
> >A gas giant is about the best place to fill up your tanks.  No pesky aquatic
> >natives around to give you any grief.  Thing is, though, there's not much
> >water vapor percentagewise in a gas giant's atmosphere, so you'd likely be
> >shipping LHyd not ice.  Unless of course you come up with a good way to
> >freeze '
> >LHyd and keep it solid for a couple years or so...
> 
> The point is that I'm not getting ice out of the gas giant.
> Gas Giants have the same problem in that fuel as at the bottom
> of this big gravity well (worse than the main world).  It is
> much easier for a lone ship to go out to the Kuiper belt,
> snag comets, and push them into orbits that bring them into
> the inner solar system.  One ship can produce a steady stream
> of these things.

Takes longer for the chunks to get insystem though.  And it takes time to find 
those chunks out there.  They're not exactly an ice cube every 200 meters, 
y'know.

> >> The ice chunks would be "caught" and put in orbit around the
> >> main world for later use.  You wouldn't be trying to catch
> >> them just before use (which would require knowing when you
> >> were going to jump months before hand when you "threw" them).
> 
> >That still means a lotta tonnage flying around in various orbits.  The
> >easiest
> >way to deal with it would be use low-energy Holmann transfer orbits.  Maybe
> >*your* ship is leaving right now, but the iceteroids now leaving the gas
> >giant
> >will fuel somebody a year or so from now.  *SOMEBODY* will buy it, and any
> >shortfalls in fuel can be brought up from the surface of teh main world.
> >
> >Thing is, you can do this stuff.  You just can't do it dirt cheep.
> 
> Make that a lot of tonnage flinging around in a narrow range of
> orbits.  Orbits that, even in todays technology, are easy to
> determine.  Of course you choose orbits that pass just outside
> of the 100 diam limit (so they won't cross the path of ships
> travelling out to the limit) until the thrusters kick in and
> slow them down (in case they fail) an put them into some predetermine
> plantary orbit for later retreival.

Obviously you'd give the ice cubes the right-of-way insystem.
 
> I don't know what you would call "dirt cheap" but it a way to make
> it cheaper than having to bring fuel up from the main world.

I think Steven would beg to differ that...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:53:49 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

>>This makes sense, the oldest working oyster boat in Dunedin just turned
100
>>yesterday, and anyone remember how old the Mary Rose was when she went
down?
>
> If it's the 16th C. warship you're referring to wasn't she newly
purpose-built?

I suspect she may have been <grin>, but she sunk some 300 years or more
after she was built.
 I'm not talking about any recent reconstructions, I'm talking about the
original.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 02:57:19 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: You might not belive this... 

> > > They're _EVERYWHERE!!!_ <gasp> They're worse than the damn Templars!!! Maybe
> > > they _are_ a Pengiun Templar plot. (Now _that's a scary thought...open source Templars...)
> > >
> > > For those too lazy to do so, running this query produces "How do I learn about
> > > Scientology" as hit #4...
> >
> > Ruh rho...
> 
> It's all a plot...
> 
> Like How come Flights to Malasya are cheaper than Kiwi Land?
> 
> 'corse I want to go to malaysa

Why?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 00:27:45 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 
...
>>   Sounds right. Further, it sounds _reasonable_. Is there a need a for a 30
>> to 40Kt service station to have a full 1-G constant maneuver establishment?
>> In fact, is it _impossible_ to use the M-1 rating (2% at MCr 1.5/Dt of drive)
>> to install a sub-1.0 G maneuver drive on such a station?
>
>If you've got it parked around a gas giant and you want to move it to the 100 
>diameter jump limit in 24 hours, yeah.  You'll *need* 1G accelleration due to 
>the distances involved, approximately 10 million klicks.

  What kind of dim-witted idea is that? Is this yet another attempt to design
a deliberately inefficient system as "proof" that these things would "cost too
much"? If so, please do better.

...
>>   Oops - sorry - I thought "micro-gees" and "0.03 G's" was specific
enough. Is
>> there a compelling reason why such a station should need 6-G/Agility 6?  :|
>
>If you want to move a station from a close orbit of a large gas giant, where 
>it's more easily fueled up, to the 100 diameter jump limit for that gias 
>giant, you need 1G to get it out there in a day.  Jesus, do the math already.

  _I_ never suggested anything that dumb - at least not in this thread, AFAIK :)
And if you want to get nit-picky I still haven't seen _any_ of the doubtless
exhaustive work you've done on your careful economic model  :|

...
>You keep wanting to make permenant structures from throwaway components.  Now 
>you're telling me that a small tug, on the order of mebbe 100 tons or less, 
>should be able to push this 37KT rock at a reasonable speed?

  I'm using "permanent" components per HG2; I can re-post refernces if you wish.
As I clearly stated previously any tugs are only intended for station keeping
and even then only if the ref isn't flexible enough to imagine "attitude jet"
scale maneuver drive elements.

...
>It's a big station.  It holds over 30KT of fuel, enough fuel to move 300KT of 
>cargo 1 parsec.  You were expecting maybe to store all that fuel in a shoebox??

  No, I stored it in perfectly legal - and _cheap_ containers per HG2. Is it
really the latter point that aggravates you?

...
>No, I'm not.  You're saying you can have a small core with lots of rock
tanks around it and stay legal even though you violate the 2% bridge rule.
I'm saying you can't, not as a permenant structure.  I specified a moveable
station, designed as a nonstarship, that would ferry fuel out to the jump
point in reasonable time frames.  I even based it on your hollow rocks.  I
just didn't look for any quasilegal loopholes to jam them through.

 i) No: the station has a legal 2% bridge. Did you check - or read? - the
design?
 ii) I'm sorry - I must have missed your specifying an uneconomic parameter for
such a station. Could you please direct me to the archive of said original post?
In any case, you still seem unable to meaningfully address the downsides of a
workable service/fuel station. If you feel up to it, you could check my designs
and look for any genuine illegalities in them for me to correct/address.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 00:31:33 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?

> > From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
> > Subject: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?
> 
> > For the full story, go to the following site:
> > 
> > http://www.artigen.com/newswire/scitech.html
> > 
> > and select the May 9th link entitled:
> > 
> > "Ray Gun Freezed Victims Without Causing Injury".
> 
> It's difficult for me to give credence to an article with a gross
> grammatical error in the headline.  It should be "Ray Gun Froze Victims
> ..." or "Ray Gun Freezes Victims ..."

> From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
> Subject: Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?
> 
> On Mon, 10 May 1999, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
> > It's difficult for me to give credence to an article with a gross

> The actual article is titled as the later. The original poster simply made
> an error in transcribing it. It's worth looking at, IMO.

Sorry to come down so hard on a typographical error.  (I'd thought that
David had cut and pasted the title.)  It's a good article, all right. 
We'll have to reconsider the tech level of certain neural weapons.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 00:56:55 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Economics of Service Stations 

Play nice you two :)
[in ref to Keven and Steven]

Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 03:49:08 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: You might not belive this...

In a message dated 99-05-11 03:01:16 EDT, you write:

<< Ruh rho, Shaggy.
 
 Frankie
  >>

I'm missing something here.  What does a greek letter, a dogs (?) name and 
something else have to with each other?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 03:57:36 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In a message dated 99-05-11 02:52:58 EDT, you write:

<< There was also a competition to write a "good" poem that wqas also a
 "useful" program when executed
  >>

Got any exsamples?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 03:56:41 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: You might not belive this... 

> In a message dated 99-05-11 03:01:16 EDT, you write:
> 
> << Ruh rho, Shaggy.
>  
>  Frankie
>   >>
> 
> I'm missing something here.  What does a greek letter, a dogs (?) name and 
> something else have to with each other?

I *think* you missed Saturday morning cartoons.  Scooby Doo's fave line was 
'Rhu rho...'  Talked pretty good, for a dog...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 04:18:10 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 
> ...
> >>   Sounds right. Further, it sounds _reasonable_. Is there a need a for a 30
> >> to 40Kt service station to have a full 1-G constant maneuver establishment?
> >> In fact, is it _impossible_ to use the M-1 rating (2% at MCr 1.5/Dt of drive)
> >> to install a sub-1.0 G maneuver drive on such a station?
> >
> >If you've got it parked around a gas giant and you want to move it to the 100 
> >diameter jump limit in 24 hours, yeah.  You'll *need* 1G accelleration due to 
> >the distances involved, approximately 10 million klicks.
> 
>   What kind of dim-witted idea is that? Is this yet another attempt to design
> a deliberately inefficient system as "proof" that these things would "cost too
> much"? If so, please do better.

OK, I was under the impression you were gonna park the stations at a gas 
giant.  So where do you park 'em?  It's easier to fill the damned things up in 
orbit and fly them out to the jump limit from an engineering point of view.  
Less stuff flying around means less things that can go wrong.  Course, if 
something *does* go wrong, it's gonna cost ya bigtime...
 
> ...
> >>   Oops - sorry - I thought "micro-gees" and "0.03 G's" was specific
> enough. Is
> >> there a compelling reason why such a station should need 6-G/Agility 6?  :|
> >
> >If you want to move a station from a close orbit of a large gas giant, where 
> >it's more easily fueled up, to the 100 diameter jump limit for that gias 
> >giant, you need 1G to get it out there in a day.  Jesus, do the math already.
> 
>   _I_ never suggested anything that dumb - at least not in this thread, AFAIK :)

I'm still trying to figure out how you come up with the scatterbrained idea 
that I specified 6G accel for the big stations.  This one's got me baffled, as 
I *specifically* calced the 'Potato' as a 1 g craft.  Think of it as a fuel 
tender if you don't wanna think of it as a fuel station.

> And if you want to get nit-picky I still haven't seen _any_ of the doubtless
> exhaustive work you've done on your careful economic model  :|

Considering I don't *have* an economic model.  I simply maintained that a 400 
ton ship *and* a fueling station costs more than a 400 ton ship by itself.  
You keep trying to convince me differently.  Tell ya what.  If you *can*, I'll 
call Clinton's replacement and recommend you for Greenspan's job.
 
> ...
> >You keep wanting to make permenant structures from throwaway components.  Now 
> >you're telling me that a small tug, on the order of mebbe 100 tons or less, 
> >should be able to push this 37KT rock at a reasonable speed?
> 
>   I'm using "permanent" components per HG2; I can re-post refernces if you wish.
> As I clearly stated previously any tugs are only intended for station keeping
> and even then only if the ref isn't flexible enough to imagine "attitude jet"
> scale maneuver drive elements.

I'll stipulate station-keeping thrusters.  Hell, I'll throw 'em in for free.  
What I don't buy is that station-keeping thrusters can move a 50KT rock (i.e., 
my 'Potato'-class rock station) the needed distance in the needed time.  
Simple physics says no can do.
 
> ...
> >It's a big station.  It holds over 30KT of fuel, enough fuel to move 300KT of 
> >cargo 1 parsec.  You were expecting maybe to store all that fuel in a shoebox??
> 
>   No, I stored it in perfectly legal - and _cheap_ containers per HG2. Is it
> really the latter point that aggravates you?

I just have problems with a core with tankage two orders of magnitude larger 
than the core.
 
> ...
> >No, I'm not.  You're saying you can have a small core with lots of rock
> tanks around it and stay legal even though you violate the 2% bridge rule.
> I'm saying you can't, not as a permenant structure.  I specified a moveable
> station, designed as a nonstarship, that would ferry fuel out to the jump
> point in reasonable time frames.  I even based it on your hollow rocks.  I
> just didn't look for any quasilegal loopholes to jam them through.
> 
>  i) No: the station has a legal 2% bridge. Did you check - or read? - the
> design?

For the core, yeah, it's legal.  For the core *PLUS* the tanks?

>  ii) I'm sorry - I must have missed your specifying an uneconomic parameter for
> such a station. Could you please direct me to the archive of said original post?

Which specified uneconomic parameter do you want?

> In any case, you still seem unable to meaningfully address the downsides of a
> workable service/fuel station. If you feel up to it, you could check my designs
> and look for any genuine illegalities in them for me to correct/address.

Show me the full workup on your design.  Oh, & before you ask, I didn't post the full workup on *my* design either.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 05:03:11 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: You might not belive this...

> << Ruh rho, Shaggy.
>  
>  Frankie
>   >>
> 
> I'm missing something here.  What does a greek letter, a dogs (?) name and 
> something else have to with each other?
> -Stephen


Think "Scooby-Do"
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 05:01:00 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: You might not belive this... 

In a message dated 99-05-11 04:04:32 EDT, you write:

<< I *think* you missed Saturday morning cartoons.  Scooby Doo's fave line 
was 
 'Rhu rho...'  Talked pretty good, for a dog...
 
 Keven
  >>

Ah, that must have been it, thanks.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 05:16:11 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

In a message dated 99-05-10 10:00:06 EDT, you write:

<< I think you fail to gather the party's lack of foresight.  This "plan" was
 literally thought up a couple of hours before execution.
 
 A weeks investigation time would have revealed the actual location of the
 weapons, as well as providing other important intelligence. >>

Oh...
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:39:47 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 

>Like I said earlier, I was under the impression that long haul freighting
was 
>pretty much subsidised.  Obviously it exists, or there would *be* no Jump-3 
>capable ships like the subsidised liner around.

Alternativly, the State could merely let buyers and sellers agree on a
price they are both happy with.


Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #603
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 11 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 604



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: You might not belive this...
Re: Drop Tank Numbers 
Re: You might not belive this... 
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Economics
RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?
Re: Post TNE ship design rules
Re: Gene Bank
Re: I'm back from sea
re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
re: Drop Tank Numbers
re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: I'm back from sea
Stupid GM Tricks
re: Drop Tank Numbers
Re: Drop Tank Numbers
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Auction of GDW Classic Traveller books
Re: You might not belive this...
Re: one minor comment on Virus
Re: You might not belive this...
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel...
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 05:37:05 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: You might not belive this...

In a message dated 99-05-11 05:35:00 EDT, you write:

<< Think "Scooby-Do" >>

Another post has already sigested it.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 05:42:51 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers 

> 
> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
> 
> >Like I said earlier, I was under the impression that long haul freighting
> was 
> >pretty much subsidised.  Obviously it exists, or there would *be* no Jump-3 
> >capable ships like the subsidised liner around.
> 
> Alternativly, the State could merely let buyers and sellers agree on a
> price they are both happy with.

Considering the 3I is a mercantile-based empire, I don't see the 3I as having a problem with that.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 05:43:13 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: You might not belive this... 

> In a message dated 99-05-11 05:35:00 EDT, you write:
> 
> << Think "Scooby-Do" >>
> 
> Another post has already sigested it.

Heheh.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:56:28 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

><< There was also a competition to write a "good" poem that wqas also a
> "useful" program when executed
>  >>

>Got any exsamples?

Not any more, unless there's some on the old cassette tapes in the garage. 
<grin>

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 20:56:03 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Economics

>From: "A. O'Mary" <omary@my-dejanews.com>
>Subject: Economics
>
>Does anyone have suggestions about how to incorporate realistic pricing
into the Traveller universe (CT,MT)? Book prices show an item and the TL at
which it becomes available, but I've never found a formula for showing the
effect of increasing TL's on the price, size, and weight. Striker had some
very nice tables that showed size/wt decreases for a given item as TL
increased, and I'm not enough of a economist to figure the various pricing
variables for efficiency of manufacture/ distance from world of
manufacture, TL difference, taxes and tariffs, etc. I know the trade rules
cover a little of that for bulk cargoes, but how do some of you handle the
price of everyday items IYTU? By standard book price? Handwave? WAG?
>ALO

This is semi-random thoughts.

As far as I remember the Striker table was about local currencies and their
value vs the Imperial Credit. This makes hi-tech goods more expensive than
their lower-tech functional equivalents - a TL12 jump-3 freighter will cost
less in Imperial Credits than it's TL15 equivalent. This may make it more
cost-effective for lugging cargo than it's TL15 equivalent, even if it's
TL15 equivalent has a bigger cargo bay from it's more efficient power plant
etc. This will mean that hi tech worlds concentrate on building hi-tech
things, and import low-tech goods from those worlds, paying with smaller
amounts of neat TL15 toys and guns.

If you assume Imperial pensions are paid in Imperial credits, then many
long-service Imperial Navy personell will be from worlds with 'soft'
currencies - 4000 credits a year turns into a lot more if your world's
currency trades at 10:1 against the Imperial.

Transport costs in the 3I are *cheap* for most manufactured goods. Assume a
KCr 10 vacc suit, that packs into one cubic meter. Ten of those in a 1dton
crate would be worth KCr 100. You could transport that 12 parsecs for about
10% of the cost of the suits.

If you have a copy of Mercenary, it has bulk-buying rules that scale to
most goods.

Taxes and tariffs could be ignored - I have much less of a problem with the
Imperium viewing tariffs by member worlds harshly than something like Far
Traders charging Cr 1500 per jump for cargo. Gurps Trav Far Trader states
that on average Imperial worlds charge 1-6% import tariffs.

In short, if you take the 'book' costs of goods, figure out their
sourceworld, multiply their cost by the exchange rates for their
sourceworld's credits, and then add 1% of value per parsec from the
destination you should be close enough.

It's complex but doable.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:18:34 +0300
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?

 
> "Ray Gun Freezed Victims Without Causing Injury".

	Hmm. They have just re-published an old concept, which has
	appeared on research papers for since 1980's. Slightly more
	technical article of the recnet HSV's "tetanizer" can be
	found in January 1999 issue of Photonics Spectra.

	According to Photonics Spectra, the main problem with tetanizer
	that the required UV laser (193-nm ArF eximer) is currently
	as large as a small refrigerator, and has only 40 Hz pulse rate.
	Currently HSV does not have a working model of the device, and
	unless there are radical advances in laser technology, the
	tetanizer is likely to be too heavy to be a man-portable weapon.

      Antti Lahtinen                lahtinen@ee.tut.fi
      Researcher, MSc (Eng)         http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:40:22 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Post TNE ship design rules

At 09:49 10/05/1999 -0300, Les_Howie@keane.com wrote:
>
>
>I've been a bit out of touch for a while.  Could anyone give me a tumbnail
>sketch of the ship design rules which have emerged since the downfall of
>TNE/FF&S.
>
> Are any of them of comparable flexibility to FF&S?
>
>Anyone have any idea of future plans in this area?
>
>Thanks

The following might be wrong, especially the GURPS info.

There have been two sets:

T4
Which had QSDS in the main rulebook, SSDS in the Starships book
and FF&S2 in its own books.
Think Book 2, High Guard and FFS for comparison.
All of these need some errata (available from the web). That for
SSDS completely replaces the printed version.

GURPS
This has a modular design system in the GURPS Traveller book
and a full system in GURPS Vehicles.

For GURPS, I think something like GT:Shipyard is going to provide
a full range of Traveller specific components.

For T4, I expect FF&S3 as part of T5 in the next millennium.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:57:06 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Gene Bank

Come to think of it, why bother carrying all that delicate DNA?
Just store all the information on electronic media. Much of the 
human genome is not usefully different between individuals, so
you might need one master 'electronic genome' plus a few variants
of a couple of thousand genes. This would allow you to do some
genetic tinkering (if your morality allows it), and start a 
population as big as you want. DNA can be generated according to 
the electronic plan, and put into stored or artificial cells.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 06:59:09 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea

><< Dom (why does cider taste like a soft drink?) >>
>
>Dr Pepper is based on prune juice.
>- -Stephen

Actually, Dr. Pepper is a cherry cola.


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:59:04 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

Juliean Galak wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>The book are all
>knowing and infallable but then virus and the original cannon adventure
>directly contradict each other.  Virus says is can reburn the computers
>inside their sealed chips cases but the adventure says there must be DIRECT
>contact with bare silicon to effect such a burn in.  Which 'book' is right?

Well, I can't comment on that since I don't actually have the books for
reference.  But I'm not arguing about how Virus should or should not work.
All I'm saying is that your TL7 assumptions are invalid when applied to
TL12 computers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have the book, and he is correct that the original intelligent silicon chips
from Cymbeline had to be in pretty much direct contact with their prey
to overwrite it. Note the word, "original".

The virus weapon was based on the Cymbeline lifeform, and it appears
that the scientists added capabilities to it without completely
understanding what they were working with. For example, they gave it
the ability to access the self-modification capabilities of high TL
computers. Thus it could use it's predatory capabilities (writing itself
onto new media) against a new prey. Kind of like giving primitive man
a bow, he still hunts but now he can hunt birds as well.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:09:35 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Drop Tank Numbers

David P. Summers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>They are, in a way. A 200dtn free trader minus 20dtns of internal fuel
>tanks only has to buy 180dtns of hull - that saves about 2MCr. Of course,
>those 20dTns of tanks would be much more durable and dependable if
>they were part of the hull instead of some welded-on gas cans.

Actually, they won't be welded on.  And there really isn't any
reason they should be less dependable.  We are talking "fuel
tanks" here.  Something we have mastered at TL 7.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Starship Hull: a reinforced container capable of resisting micrometeorites,
jump-space transition, radiation, acceleration stress and other damage for
decades if not centuries.

Drop Tank: a disposable pod capable of carrying fuel.

Sounds to me like there's a bit of difference in the design specs there. :-)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:26:47 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Economics of Drop Tanks

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>   You feel that Cr 10-15 per Dt is a fairly burdensome expense for
> transporting L-Hyd from a GG to a large-scale shipping facility up
> to a quarter of a year away?

It's not zero, is it?  Remember, you're shipping a *LOT* of fuel.  It adds up.
>>>>>>>>>>>
That fuel isn't being dumped down a hole - it's being sold, either to other
shippers or to other departments of your megacorp*. As long as price per
ton of fuel is higher than cost per ton, you've got a profit-making enterprise.
Those profits will tend to increase (to the limits of demand) as you spend
more on costs (increasing amounts of fuel delivered).

Walt Smith

*Departments of Megacorps can make profits at the expense of other
departments. Companies do it today with chargebacks and such.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 06:41:16 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea

And, I suspect you missed his point...in the UK cider does NOT typically mean
that sweet apple-juice stuff we feed to babies but something considerably
harder. It's not until the next morning that you truly regret that it does
indeed taste like a soft drink... >:-) Feeling better today, Dom?

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-05-10 19:05:58 EDT, you write:
> 
> << Dom (why does cider taste like a soft drink?) >>
> 
> Dr Pepper is based on prune juice.
> -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:43:24 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Stupid GM Tricks

O.K., so we're having some fun at the expense of certain
players, but we GMs screw up too. My personal favourite
was in an AD&D game many years ago...I was describing the
following room:
     ______
    |      |
    |  []  | <---alter
    |______|
    |      |
    |      |
    |__  __|
        x    <---party

GM: "The door swings inward, revealing a room 60' deep and 
30' wide, with a 30' ceiling. A torch in each corner provides 
light, and you see a stone alter near the far end. All the 
walls are covered by curtains, and a floor-to-ceiling curtain 
across the center of the room blocks...um...#@%*&!... 
The door swings inward, revealing a room 30' deep by 30' wide..."

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:38:20 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Drop Tank Numbers

Ian Whitchurch wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Alternativly, the State could merely let buyers and sellers agree on a
price they are both happy with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Why would a cargo owner want to pay an independent operator more per
ton to carry his goods than the gov't subsidized merchant line will charge
to carry it?

The independent operator generally can't offer more reliability or more
ability to absorb liability. He may be able to offer more convenience
or a shipping schedule that's friendlier to a small cargo owner, and
I do see cases where those factors should allow the ship owner to charge 
more - say, to take a cargo to a planet that doesn't *have* regular 
(and subsidized) liner service.

I think it's a matter of gov't (and Megacorp) subsidies skewing the laws
of supply and demand.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 06:52:37 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers

>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers
...
>Alternativly, the State could merely let buyers and sellers agree on a
>price they are both happy with.

 !? Reactionary running pig-dog lackey swine!

        Yours, etc.
                The Traveller Socialist Conspiracy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 06:54:18 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation
...
>>>yesterday, and anyone remember how old the Mary Rose was when she went
>down?
>>
>> If it's the 16th C. warship you're referring to wasn't she newly
>purpose-built?
>
>I suspect she may have been <grin>, but she sunk some 300 years or more
>after she was built.
> I'm not talking about any recent reconstructions, I'm talking about the
>original.

  Must be a different ship - the Mary Rose I'm thinking of sank in the 16th C.
When & where did the one that you're referring to sink?

        Steven

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 06:56:22 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
...
>> >Like I say, you can do it.  You just can't do it dirt cheap.
>> 
>>   You feel that Cr 10-15 per Dt is a fairly burdensome expense for
>> transporting L-Hyd from a GG to a large-scale shipping facility up
>> to a quarter of a year away?
>
>It's not zero, is it?  Remember, you're shipping a *LOT* of fuel.  It adds up.

  No, yes, and yes :)  FWIW, it's at least mildly strange to insist that only
zero is "dirt-cheap"; thus = free? 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 07:00:02 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Auction of GDW Classic Traveller books

  Sorry for the bandwidth if this doesn't interest you, but some of you might
want these items; updates will be to bidders or interested individuals only.

Rules:
1) All e-mail to:  shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca     (_not_ the TML, please)
2) Purchaser pays all shipping charges (i.e., insurance is extra); Canada
Post (preferred) or UPS. Postage would be around $1.75 US per booklet for small
shipments in bubble-pak envelopes - less per unit for more books; more if UPS.
3) Payment by _US Postal Service_ Postal Money Order, unless agreed otherwise.
 Items will be shipped only after payment is received. 
4) Minimum bids are listed; all amounts are $US. For simplicities sake I'll
 e-mail updates to bidders on Thursday, Saturday, and next Monday, and close
the auction on Wednesday, May 19th, 2300 PST.
5) Condition of items varies; please read individual description.

        Steven Hudson - shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca

 GDW - Classic Traveller:
$3  Book 0 - An Introduction to Traveller - good condition
$5  Book 4 - Mercenary - cover fair, interior good condition
$4  Book 5 - High Guard (2nd ed.) - _poor_ condition
$9  Book 6 - Scouts - good condition; cover wear
$12 Book 8 - Robots - excellent condition; shop wear only
$6  Supp 3 - The Spinward Marches - good condition
$7  Supp 6 - 76 Patrons - good condition
$8  Supp 7 - Traders and Gunboats - fair condition; cover wear
$6  Supp 8 - Library Data A-M - good condition; cover wear
$6  Adv. 1 - The Kinunir - good condition; cover wear
$7  Adv. 2 - Research Station Gamma - good condition; cover wear & marks
$5  Adv. 4 - Leviathan - fair condition
$8  Adv. 6 - Expedition to Zhodane - excellent condition
$8  JTAS #21 (includes Special Supplement 3 - Missiles in Traveller, never
removed) - mint except for two price/store stickers still on. Various Keith
articles, including Vargr corsairs, K'kree philosophy, and a minor race.

        Steven Hudson - shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 09:59:42 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: You might not belive this...

Hmmm, not quite, Astro on the Jetsons talked the same way

Rhu rho Rorge!!!


Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition


On Tue, 11 May 1999 05:03:11 -0400 Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com> writes:
>> << Ruh rho, Shaggy.
>>  
>>  Frankie
>>   >>
>> 
>> I'm missing something here.  What does a greek letter, a dogs (?) 
>name and 
>> something else have to with each other?
>> -Stephen
>
>
>Think "Scooby-Do"
>-- 
>___________________________________________________________
> J-Man
> ICQ# 2843475
> Email : j-man@iname.com
> Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
>___________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 07:12:02 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-05-10 22:39:15 EDT, you write:
> 
> << I hate to wade into a Virus flamewar, but you are aware of all the OS bugs
>  that
>  let long addresses, subject lines, or other parts of email messages spill
> over
>  into other pieces of memory and get executed as code, aren't you?

Buffer Overruns, the 3leet hakur d00d's best friend...

>  Or one could remember the Cornell Worm... >>
> 
> What is a worm (computer, not Earth)?

In theory, a worm like the Cornell Worm is a program that copies itself to
another computer, then erases itself where it was, thus 'worming' it's way
through the network. Usually, to ensure the wide spreading of itself and
against 'death' (being copied to a computer that cannot run it), it'll copy
itself to several computers before the erasing bit.

Robert Morris' problem was that his worm copied itself too often, too fast
(due to a bug in the program) and got out of control. It also got _out_...the
first run was to be a test on a select number of computers. It also spread
because the internet used highly uniform software and hardware at the time,
and people hadn't thought to worry about stuff like that yet.

A more modern example is the melissa 'virus'...again, spread due to highly
uniform software and computing platforms. By listening to the news, you would
have thought that Melissa brought the worlds computers to their
knees...actually, only those willing to run a single-source solution,
Microsoft _everything_ were truly susceptible. If you didn't use MS Outlook as
your mail client, even if you DID use MS Word as your word processor you were
safe from the destructive effects of the virus. If you didn't use MS Exchange
as your mail server on an MS WinNT host, you were spared _some_ of the
carnage, because a Unix box running sendmail scales a heckuva lot better.

Witness the UofA: by all accounts Melissa was _very_ widespread on campus,
every department got hit. But we saw hardly any problems with mail service at
all.  Our College, which does not use either MS OutPuke or Exchange, simply
had to deal with the macro virus problem.

rant/

WHY the _hell_ don't they just include a damn software switch in MS Word to
just turn off macro use entirely??? No one uses 'em, at least in Word anymore,
except the virus punks...All I want to to is be able to tell my word processor
(which, BTW, I actually LIKE Word as) that it's _not_ a #@$!@*&?&^ compiler or
interpreter, just a mechanism for putting words on paper...dammit!!!

/rant

Contrast this to Microsoft, which had to shut down their corporate network
_completely_ to fix the problem.

obTrav: One thread running through canon is the 'Imperial Data Package' which
seems to be a huge set of instructions on just about everything from ACR's to
Starships. One would presume that Computer programs are a large part of it.
There is a great deal of implied standardization throughout the Imperium.

Contrary to someone else's comment regarding Vilani conservatism, an all MS
solution is _just_ what they would do: "No one ever got fired for specifying
IBM". 

A uniform system, top to bottom, running on standardized parts and
standardized software, is _just_ the thing those conservative bean-counters
would see as a valuable thing. It would streamline procurement, make support
significantly easier, faster and cheaper, and standardize training issues
across the Imperium.

Hmmm, sound familiar?

Notice the ones to survive Virus in TNE were the hacked up old Free Traders
running a motley assortment of software and hardware, and having to do most of
the work themselves...

Wonder if they had penguin decals on their systems ....;->

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 07:20:59 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: You might not belive this...

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > In a message dated 99-05-11 03:01:16 EDT, you write:
> >
> > << Ruh rho, Shaggy.
> >
> >  Frankie
> >   >>
> >
> > I'm missing something here.  What does a greek letter, a dogs (?) name and
> > something else have to with each other?
> 
> I *think* you missed Saturday morning cartoons.  Scooby Doo's fave line was
> 'Rhu rho...'  Talked pretty good, for a dog...

Whattya mean Saturday??? Scooby's on all the time, right there after
Freakazoid and the Road Rovers, and before Cow and Chik....uhhh, desn't
_everyone_ get (and _watch_) the Cartoon Network?? ;-)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 07:23:02 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel...

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics/
... 
>> I don't know what you would call "dirt cheap" but it a way to make
>> it cheaper than having to bring fuel up from the main world.
>
>I think Steven would beg to differ that...

  I happen to suspect that the cheapest thing would be to get water from a
worlds surface - fewer losses to skimming accidents over the years. However,
I assumed that this was not an option for arguments sake - it's just too 
easy, and not universally available. GG skimming probably (?) wins overall.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:26:23 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

At 05:39 PM 5/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 06:37 PM 5/10/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>NO IT WILL NOT.  Data can not be executed.  It is meaning less to the
>>LIMITED instraction set in the processor.  Just like a person can not act on
>>all the data he recieves as all of it is not actionable.  A computer mush be
>>able to tell what in instruction and what is data.
>
>Actually, that's not true... The foundation of languages like LISP and Tcl
>(and any other language where functions are 1st class data types) is that a
>program is just data...  This is not true vice-versa.  Nothing will let you
>execute a copy of your favorite novel, however a data file _can_ contain a
>complete program.  The way to make a Virus like this, is to trick the
>system somehow into executing the contents of the data file.  And this is
>all assuming that computers work on the same general principles as today.  
>

Yes there is.  It is call logic.  Computer operate on logical princples that
is how they are able to do what we tell them.  By simple logic if they are
to do the jobs we want them to do they must follow our instructions.  Those
instrunctions must be understandable to the computer.  Those instruction
they understand are their instructions set.  The exact nature of those
instruct will change over time but they will alway be present because the
computers must deal with human and are made by us to serve us.

As for code and data.  You are saying exactly what I ment.  The computer
will not intentionally try to run what it thinks is data so data is not
executed and sence the information is all data the virus can not run unless
something already in the system knows to run it.  A fith collumnist code in
effect.

>Since Traveller science violates such things as the Laws of Gravitation and
>Relativity, I don't see why they can't break such things as Turing machines... 
>

Actually id does not do so directly.  It supposes an undiscovered work
arround.  Traveller ship do not travel faster than light they leave this 3d
universe and appear back into it somewhere else without being in all the
space between so they do not really travell.  It's a nasty bit os samantics
but it does explain why a ship in jump can't be reached and why any such
trip regardless of distance takes about the same amount of time.  The rule
in jump space are just different.  As for thruster plate and antigravity, I
tend to think they are similer work around perhaps based on jump space
physics.  Perhaps thruster plate push against jump space and antigravity
diverts gravity through jump space around what ever it is nulling the
gravity of.  None of this 'breaks' the rules it gets arround them by
diverting the problem condition to a place where it is not a problem.  This
'linked to jump space' could explain why all these technologies seem to
appear togethere given time regardless of what race discovered them.

>>
>>It's very curtain.  The process has a fixed instruction set.  Even if it can
>>be told to add new instructions latter it will have a fixed and non
>>deleteable core instruction set that is the building blocks for all other
>>instruction to be added later.  If this were not so them the device you are
>>discibing is NOT a computer.  It come down to definitions.
>>
>>>optimizing compilers, and clock cycles will no longer exist.  I don't know
>>
>>NOT POSIBLE.  At some level the boot strap system has to be hard coded.
>
>
>You are still making the assumption that it works the same.  Just because
>TL7/8 computers have boot strap codes, it doesn't mean that TL12 ones will
>

It's a logical assumption.  Most large systems 'boot strap'.  You car's
ignition is the boot strap for it.  The wind up time for jet engines,
printing presses, and assembly line are all forms of boot strapping.  Boot
straping is just a series of things done to get normal operations started.
I'm fairly sure it will take at least some time for future 'disk drives' or
their equivalent to 'wind up to speed' or for their 'heads to seek the right
secter' or for the system to check it's own memory confiruration and see it
the interuption was intentional or an error in code.

>>Then it is NOT a C-O-M-P-U-T-E-R.  It does NOT 'run programs'.  You have
>>throw out all your reference points.  If you want to say it is a magic box
>>that makes your wishes come true IYTU thats fine but if your solution to
>>solve bad writting is to say that at TL15 tech is SO magical that we can not
>>understand it you make technical character an imposibility as they can not
>>act based on logical progression and the scientific method.

>Not true.  A "computer", according to the Oxford English Dictionary, is "a
>calculating-machine, especially an electronic device for performing
>mathematical and logical operations."  There is nothing in there about
>instruction sets or boot code.  A computer is defined by what it does, not

'Never was one so blind as those that will not see'

A math formula of procedure IS a program dat and instructions. the + is the
instruction for the add function.  The = the command to execute.  The ( and
) define sub routines.  Try righting an american english set of instructions
for somethin that only understand add and subtract for the following.

(2*(46/2)-15)+(7*((pi^9)/13))=

Remember the person you are writting for understands NOTHING except addition
and subtration.  When you are done you will have written a program for a
'computer' as the person 'running' the program will be 'performing
mathamatical and logical operations'.  People contiuiously think that the
hardware does all the work in a computer.  Most computers have to have a
program to do most higher order math functions correctly.  Those pocket
calculaters were programed!  The program is no burned into their processor
but it is still a program.

>how it does it.  Just like we know that a Jump drive can move us a parsec a
>week without understanding how it actually works, we can know that a
>Complexity-4 computer (in GURPS) can run two complexity-4 programs.  It
>doesn't matter how it runs them and what is actually going on inside, only
>the effects matter.  Thus we know it can provide +5 bonuses to two ship
>weapons,  without understanding the inner workings.
>

So you are another of the 'it's so because the book say it's so' types.
Sorry but I an not a limming to blindly follow.  I need to have some
understanding of the underlying logical belief structure to be able to craft
internally consistant adventures.  To much hand waving detract from the game
and make supention of disbelief and impatizing with the characters
difficult.  The more internally consistant the more believable the story.

>>I see now.  You are one of those gamer that believe that if it says so in
>>'the book' it must be so.  Well if that is the case and you are not open to
>>logical discussion then why are you discussing it here?  


>No, as a matter of fact I'm not.  I do interpret and often change things
>that don't make sense in the books.  However, we are talking about the OTU,
>which is _only_ what is printed in the books.  IMTU, it's quite possible
>that computers will require instruction sets and boot-strap code.  Clearly
>this is true in YTU.  But not in the OTU.
>

And were in canon does it say that computers do not require instruction
sets?  IIRC they require programs which are 'sequences of instructions' if
by profeessor at my engineering colledge was not bady mistaken.  If they
have programs they have instruction set.  One comes with the other.

>>The book are all
>>knowing and infallable but then virus and the original cannon adventure
>>directly contradict each other.  Virus says is can reburn the computers
>>inside their sealed chips cases but the adventure says there must be DIRECT
>>contact with bare silicon to effect such a burn in.  Which 'book' is right?
>
>Well, I can't comment on that since I don't actually have the books for
>reference.  But I'm not arguing about how Virus should or should not work.
>All I'm saying is that your TL7 assumptions are invalid when applied to
>TL12 computers.
>

Prove it.  That is an assumption.  I made a logical deduction from available
data.  In traveller they are call compters, they run programs, they have
programers, programns are 'sequences of instruction', thus logically
travller computers have instruction set.

You STATE that they do not.  WHere is your proof?  What is your chain of
logic to deduce this conclusion?

>
>>Computer design and bootstraping the code is what I do for by dayly bread.
>>I do it all from basic concept, to IC specification, to Gerber layout, to
>>boot straping, to prototype testing, to control code crunching.  My nitch is
>>as a one man design team for small to medium level custom integrated control
>>systems.
>Well, you certainly have more experience in this than I do.  However, that
>experience is in design of _TL7_ machines, not TL12 ones.  
>

AND where is your PROFF that the paradim will change?  Even with all the
improvements we made in the last 5 decades the basic use and implimentation
of logic execution of sequential instructions has not changed.  New and more
efficent combinations of those logical instructions have been but not new
basic paradium has been discovered.  So what is your evidenve that a major
reinvention of logical thought will occure?

>>Those future computers come from the minds of men.  Even assuming such
>>advances as 'more than two state' processing systems (once much talked about
>>but it fallen by the way side of late) and subatomic level circuits you
>>still have to have instructions and data.

>First off even the "minds of men" assumption isn't necessarily valid,
>perhaps high TL computers are designed by other high TL computers.

OK, but those original computers were designed my men and sence a coputer
can only do what is is told (not original thought) then it's decendance will
not contain anything newer than optimized 'variations on a theme'.

>However, I don't actually like that idea, so let's ignore it for a second.
>I'm not saying that TL12 computer are incomprehensible to us.  If we
>actually saw one and had it explained to us, I'm sure we'd  understand it
>(It might require a few years at a TL12 university, but eventually we'd get
>it.)  However, what we cannot do is predict _how_ it would work.  As an

It would take only minutes at best for a person already trained in logic.
Logic is basic, on implimentations change.  Babage could understand the
concepts of a PC in seconds with only the idea of 'very small on off
switches call transiters' as his clue.  Pascal might not even need that
explained.  Disks, easy, 'magnetic writing and reading of binary states'.
Once the basic concepts are understood method becomes only a special effect.
With the handbook on the hardware and the CPUs manual incuding instruction
set I can write code for ANY computer.  That is what I do everyday.

>example of this, consider Jules Verne' "20,000 leagues under the sea."  In
>it, he predicted (correctly) that electrically powered submarines would
>dominate future naval warfare.  The concept of the fast attack submarine
>was valid, he got the "what".  However, he was not able to predict such

EXACTLY!!!! That is what I am try to tell you!!!  The 'what' is the
paradium!  Computers ARE the PHYSICAL manifistation of LOGIC!  They will
always be based on logic so there materials may change but the paradium will
not.

Note when I say logic I mean as in boylian logic not 'proper thought'.  I
mean and, or, not, nand, nor, xor, shift right, shift left, add, adc,

>things a nuclear power plants and tomahawk missiles.  He didn't get the
>"How".  Now I think he could learn it if a 1990s person explained them to
>him, but he couldn't predict the how.  Same applies here.
>

Yep, but we are talking different HOWs.  You are talking the physical
manifistation which you seem to think will change logic.  It will not.  At
best is might add states which would greatly improve through put (in orders
of magnatude) but the underlying logic must remain if the thing call a
computer is to compute!

>>Is CS in this sentence computer science?
>yes.
>
>>What does NP-complete mean?  Not posible to complete?  If so I'll argue
>>against that with the million monkey theorum.
><snip>
>>polynomial time?  Can you define this for me?  Polynomial, in the context
>>that I an use to, is a particural type of mathamatical formula.  Are you
>>saying 'in a calulatable funtion of time' posibly based of Megflops?  If so
>>that agrees with the million monkey theorum.
>
>Polynomial time means that a program with input of size x, will take c(x^k)
>iterations to execute with c and k as some arbitrary constants.  NP means
>non-polynomial.  An NP program will take c'*(k'^x) iterations, for some
>constants c' and k'.  On very large inputs, where x>>c,k,c',k', NP problems
>take much longer than polynomial ones.  NP-complete is a large set of NP
>problems that can be reduced to each other (in other words, if you can
>solve one in polynomial time, you can solve them all in polynomial time).
>Conventional approaches to computer design and programming have been unable
>to solve any NP-complete problems in P time.  Quantum computer are believed
>to be able to.  
>
>This example is not actually relevant to the Virus discussion, but is
>merely an example of how a basic assumption in CS (and NP-completeness is
>pretty basic) doesn't hold true at higher TLs.
>

Actually this is being done today with some newer algorithims and arcatypes.
It is posible to do this but the logic structures behind them are bysanteen
in the extreme.  You'd see some of this in 'fuzzy logic' systems and in
massively parrell systems but we are only starting to exploit these logic
structures.  Again these are only extrapolations of basic logic.  The basic
pardium is the same it just includes 'a new implimentation of feedback to
shorten the loop'.  That's in quotes becauses it the closest analogy I can
manage.  I have not work with this structure as I do not work with either
massively parralell systems of systems large enough to devide resources to
simulate this effectively.  What it comes down to is synergy, the whole is
greater that the some of it's parts.  Again this is a macro effect and not a
change in basic structure as these system are run on standard computer
systems.  As you said it's the HOW not the what.  The what (the computer)
has not changed.

>>Yes and no.  It is just a scale change.  The basic PROCESSOR will still be
>>an intruction set sequential unit.  You might get to a massively parallel
>>level with near instant vertical and/or horisontal condition branching so
>>that in effect you have something done before you could have it done by
>>today's standard (what people call intuition or nonlinear thought) but that
>>is only if you look at it as a macro system.  At the base level there is no
>>paradium change.  After all if you push the concept to its' limits you get
>>the human brain. (Massively paralleled neural net with shared integrated
>>data systems and hard coded instruction set, 'DNA'. )

>Does a brain really have hard-coded instructions?  Are you sure?  Because
>modern science certainly isn't.  We don't know how the brain works.

OF course it is sure.  It's the autonomic nerviuos system!  Do you have to
learn to beat your heart or digest your food or jerk your hand away from
pain?  I'm not talking about hardwired personalities or anything that high
up.  I'm talking the boot strap software that any healthy bady has.  Babies
KNOW how to breath, cry, eat, digest, excreet and millions of other
operations far to complex for todays most advanved computers to do all
because it is hard wired into their basic ROM...DNA!  And guess what, it
atomic scale data storage too.  Now that is high tech.!

>Parallel neural networks is _one_ way of approximating the brain, one that
>we don't know is correct.  Maybe a brain has all the same parameters as a
>Turing machine-based computer.   Maybe not.  And even if it does, a TL12
>computer may still not have them.  The assumption that a high-TL computer
>will work like the human brain is not necessarily true.  Maybe it works in
>some other fashion.  Or maybe not.
>

What good does this do?  You are supposing here.  We KNOW what a computers
function is.  Structure ALWAYS follows function.  Instead of supposing lets
try deduction.

>>Changes to the macro effect does not nessecitate and micro paradiun change.
>And likewise, similarities between macro effects don't necessitate
>identical micro paradigms.  That's exactly my point.  Just because it acts
>like a TL7 computer, doesn't mean it works like a TL7 computer.
>

Exactly wrong.  A computer by your own difinition performs 'mathamatical and
logical functions'.  That fixes 'what' it does.  By difinition it is a logic
engine.  TL is not relevant.  The mechanics of an OR gate are pretty much
fixed in it definition.  You can overcomlicate it with enificency but it's
still an OR gate and that is a logical function.  Form follow function.  Can
you come up with a micro paradium for an OR gate that is truely basicly
diferent and still be an OR gate?  I don't think so.  You are tied forever
to logic and math.

>>For example it is easy to run neural net software on a PC which has no
>>neural net processors on board.  You can solve control problems by modeling
>>an analog control system on a digital system and IMPROVE performace over the
>>original analog system by adding digital algorithems.  This is synergy not
>>tech. magic.  There is no magic in technology only the appearence of magic
>>untill you understand the underlying processes.
>All true.  So what?
>

Form and fuction.  That is what.  The form maybe in software of hardware but
form follow function and these two thing define HOW and WHAT.

Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #604
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 11 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 605



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: one minor comment on Virus
Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?
Re: Economics of Service Stations
Re: You might not belive this...
re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: one minor comment on Virus
Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?
re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...)
McClellan
Re: Drop tank numbers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:26:44 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 06:44 PM 5/11/99 +1200, you wrote:
>
>>NO IT WILL NOT.  Data can not be executed.  It is meaning less to the
>>LIMITED instraction set in the processor.
>
>Charles, while you are correct in saying that an instruction that is not
>recognized can not be excuted , it is incorrect to asume from that premise ,
>that data cannot be executed.
>
>Data _can_ be executed _if_ it's bytes represent valid instructions.
>

Very true, that was not how I ment that to come out and it may have drifted
from context.  Let me try this again.

A computer will not make an attempt to execute what it believes to be data
UNLESS something in it's instructions tell it to.  So the 'virus' loaded as
'data' from the comm system cannot become active UNLESS some currently
executeable instructions tell the system to try to execute it.  If the
system is properly secured it will be nearly imposible for this to occure.

>Back in the old days we used to store code in the VDU (Visual Display Unit)
>memory, and it was always a challenge to write code that _looked_ like, say
>an aircraft cockpit when viewd as data.
>

I never pulled that stunt but I have played hide the code page with page two
video memory on many occation in the old 64k of memory days.

I've also played fast and loose with dos to 'create' my own dos commands.
It's great when the command line interpreter considers everything after a
resevered word as pasted options or stuff to be operated on.  Man that was a
LONG time ago!

>There was also a competition to write a "good" poem that wqas also a
>"useful" program when executed
>

Never tried this one either.  I think I'd prefer Hyku.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:26:55 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 09:56 PM 5/11/99 +1200, you wrote:
>
>><< There was also a competition to write a "good" poem that wqas also a
>> "useful" program when executed
>>  >>
>
>>Got any exsamples?
>
>Not any more, unless there's some on the old cassette tapes in the garage. 
><grin>
>

Would those be TRS-80 tapes, Altairs, OSI, or the old black cased apple?

Got any 8 inch disks or reel to reels in there?  I still do.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:27:06 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

At 07:36 PM 5/10/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>NO IT WILL NOT.  Data can not be executed.  It is meaning less to the
>>LIMITED instraction set in the processor.  Just like a person can not act on
>>all the data he recieves as all of it is not actionable.  A computer mush be
>>able to tell what in instruction and what is data.
>
>I hate to wade into a Virus flamewar, but you are aware of all the OS bugs
>that
>let long addresses, subject lines, or other parts of email messages spill over
>into other pieces of memory and get executed as code, aren't you?
>

Yes, the data overwrote the code due to bad termination of bad data
structuring.  Some other part of the code then tried the excecute the code
that should have been there.  It's a fairly old trick.  The real trick is to
find a combination of ascii codes that are also usefull instuctions in the
instruction set of the target system.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 07:39:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?

On Tue, 11 May 1999, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
> Sorry to come down so hard on a typographical error.  (I'd thought that
> David had cut and pasted the title.)  It's a good article, all right. 
> We'll have to reconsider the tech level of certain neural weapons.

Maybe not. I gathered from the article that they still have not built a
working model, and that the current plan is to create a device which is
suitcase-sized. They *expect* that developing technologies will enable the
size to be reduced, but that's a long way from a working stunner in every
policeman's holster.

Brannon

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:06:17 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations

>Considering I don't *have* an economic model.  I simply maintained that a 400
>ton ship *and* a fueling station costs more than a 400 ton ship by itself.
>You keep trying to convince me differently.

The idea is that while the start-up cost for a single 400-ton ship may be
less than a 400-ton ship plus fueling station and its support craft, the
long-term economic benefits of the ship plus fueling station eventually pay
for this, and end up in larger profits for those involved.

Remember, you do not need a fueling station for each and every drop-tank
ship built, just as you do not need one gas station for each and every car
on the road. A fueling station can serve the needs of many ships for a long
period of time (remeber, we are talking about vehicles and facilities that
have operational lifespans of several decades).


>I just have problems with a core with tankage two orders of magnitude larger
>than the core.

So what logic prevents a core with big, free-standing tanks of fuel (not
attached to the station) to be accessed and used at need? This would be the
preferred method to stowage, I would think. Why must the spare drop-tankage
be stored inside the main hull of the station?


>> >No, I'm not.  You're saying you can have a small core with lots of rock
>> tanks around it and stay legal even though you violate the 2% bridge rule.
>> I'm saying you can't, not as a permenant structure.  I specified a moveable
>> station, designed as a nonstarship, that would ferry fuel out to the jump
>> point in reasonable time frames.  I even based it on your hollow rocks.  I
>> just didn't look for any quasilegal loopholes to jam them through.

You simply do not need this movable station any more than you need mobile
gas stations in the real world. The ships it is servicing can move
themselves, thus they can travel to and from the station. The only movable
things you need are the tugs to transport the unrefined fuel to the station
for processing and storage.

I am beginning to think lot of this argument is caused by rules artifacts
in High Guard and the abuses you can make with them by making assumptions
and extrapolations. Using different rules sets, you will likely get
different results (as was found with PAs and Meson guns in GURPS Traveller).

OT note:

While it's been amusing reading this debate, it looks as if it has the
potential to get ugly. I don't mean to be a buttinskie (okay, maybe I do)
but let's all just step back a sec and take a deep breath (after responding
to my post of course -- I do not want to have the last word).

Unless you guys are *both* having fun sniping at each other, that is. If
that's the case, go for it -- although you might want to take it off-list
if it gets too off-topic.

Remember, you can say a lot of sarcastic and mean things to your friends in
the real world and have them be really funny, but the same does not seem to
hold true through the medium of email.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:06:17 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: You might not belive this...

>I *think* you missed Saturday morning cartoons.  Scooby Doo's fave line was
>'Rhu rho...'  Talked pretty good, for a dog...

I always thought it was spelled "rhutt-row," as in "Rhutt-row, Raggy. It's
a rooky roast!"

ObTrav: Uhm, Vargr? <ducking David's "Vargr ARE NOT dogs" katana>

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:09:06 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 08:59 AM 5/11/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Juliean Galak wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>The book are all
>>knowing and infallable but then virus and the original cannon adventure
>>directly contradict each other.  Virus says is can reburn the computers
>>inside their sealed chips cases but the adventure says there must be DIRECT
>>contact with bare silicon to effect such a burn in.  Which 'book' is right?
>
>Well, I can't comment on that since I don't actually have the books for
>reference.  But I'm not arguing about how Virus should or should not work.
>All I'm saying is that your TL7 assumptions are invalid when applied to
>TL12 computers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I have the book, and he is correct that the original intelligent silicon chips
>from Cymbeline had to be in pretty much direct contact with their prey
>to overwrite it. Note the word, "original".
>
>The virus weapon was based on the Cymbeline lifeform, and it appears
>that the scientists added capabilities to it without completely
>understanding what they were working with. For example, they gave it
>the ability to access the self-modification capabilities of high TL
>computers. Thus it could use it's predatory capabilities (writing itself
>onto new media) against a new prey. Kind of like giving primitive man
>a bow, he still hunts but now he can hunt birds as well.
>

Part of the problem I have is this supposed perminate self modification
ability.  The computers on traveller ships would be general purpose main
frames.  Designed to run what ever was needed.  That would mean that either
they could not be self modifying (because if a program perminately changed
the computer to better run itself then other programs would either not run
at all or run badly or slowly) or if they were self modifying they would
have to have a mechanism to return those cercuits to there orginal
configuration to run diffeerent programs (if the circuits can be reset then
the virus can be purged!).  A hardware based self modifying abilty is
generally reserved for dedecated systems not general purpose systems.  Canon
states that the virus is nearly imposible to get rid of once fulling
invested.  It is posible to have this effect and let the virus 'modify the
system' without throwing reality out the window.  Check out my virusbeard
declaration and see what you think.  The effects of what I discribed would
be nearly identical to the virus as written in canon.(I do not see any
discrepancies.)  Damned near imposible to get rid of, prone to mutation,
able to infect systems without transponders but only slowly without direct
contact, dormant seed capability, and a good reason for the programer to use
the living chips as a starting point (to exploit the transponder for
comunicating the virus code, as a fortress to attack out of, and the back
door into the main computer to attack through).

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:09:17 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

>A uniform system, top to bottom, running on standardized parts and
>standardized software, is _just_ the thing those conservative bean-counters
>would see as a valuable thing. It would streamline procurement, make support
>significantly easier, faster and cheaper, and standardize training issues
>across the Imperium.
>
>Hmmm, sound familiar?
>

Yes, it is a version for what I put forth in my Virusbeard declaration.
Have A look at it.  I'd love to hear your coments.

>Notice the ones to survive Virus in TNE were the hacked up old Free Traders
>running a motley assortment of software and hardware, and having to do most of
>the work themselves...
>

Manual overrides anyone?

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:16:42 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?

At 02:18 PM 5/11/99 +0300, you wrote:
> 
>> "Ray Gun Freezed Victims Without Causing Injury".
>
>	Hmm. They have just re-published an old concept, which has
>	appeared on research papers for since 1980's. Slightly more
>	technical article of the recnet HSV's "tetanizer" can be
>	found in January 1999 issue of Photonics Spectra.
>
>	According to Photonics Spectra, the main problem with tetanizer
>	that the required UV laser (193-nm ArF eximer) is currently
>	as large as a small refrigerator, and has only 40 Hz pulse rate.
>	Currently HSV does not have a working model of the device, and
>	unless there are radical advances in laser technology, the
>	tetanizer is likely to be too heavy to be a man-portable weapon.

well, they claim they can make a large briefcase now, and with some new
laser diode bring it down to the size of a flashlight.  Even without that
though, if they can make it VRF, it would be useful on riot control vehicles.  

As for being an old idea, it's in GURPS Ultratech as an electro-laser.  And
UT is at least early 90s.  BTW, UT lists it as GTL9=TTL10-12!  I love it
when reality exceed sci-fi.  Actually, in Ultratech 2, there's a subchapter
devoted to the things that were listed as high TL in UT, and already
happened...



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- -- 
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:52:04 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Part of the problem I have is this supposed perminate self modification
ability.  The computers on traveller ships would be general purpose main
frames.  Designed to run what ever was needed.  That would mean that either
they could not be self modifying (because if a program perminately changed
the computer to better run itself then other programs would either not run
at all or run badly or slowly) or if they were self modifying they would
have to have a mechanism to return those cercuits to there orginal
configuration to run diffeerent programs (if the circuits can be reset then
the virus can be purged!).  A hardware based self modifying abilty is
generally reserved for dedecated systems not general purpose systems.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is not a problem if you're willing to rethink the materials computers
are made of at higher TL.

The computer core doesn't have to be hard-wired silicon. Take some kind
of mutable matrix, make it in massive quantites. Chop a chunk of it off
and put it in a computer as a central core, then run a configuration
and optimization program to set the core up to best use it's hardware,
programs and peripherals. Of course, you only intend to run the config 
routine once - but maybe you don't get rid of it, maybe you'll run it again
two years from now (much like a user of today might reinstall their
operating system to "clean things up a bit"). The config is run from a 
small, dedicated computer - that probably also has one of these high-tech
mutable cores. The peripherals probably have the same cores inside
them as well. All of which would be the ideal environment for Virus.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:01:22 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

First off, let me explain something about what I mean when I say a TL-based
assumption is invalid.  I don't mean that it must be false.  All I'm saying
is that it _may_ be false.  I just don't feel like writing that out 50
times per post.  

At 02:26 PM 5/11/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Yes there is.  It is call logic.  Computer operate on logical princples that
>is how they are able to do what we tell them.  By simple logic if they are
>to do the jobs we want them to do they must follow our instructions.  Those
>instrunctions must be understandable to the computer.  Those instruction
>they understand are their instructions set.  The exact nature of those
>instruct will change over time but they will alway be present because the
>computers must deal with human and are made by us to serve us.

The need for instructions is true.  However, the assumption that the
instruction set is closed may not be true.  Perhaps a system can create
it's own instructions on the fly?  Who knows?

>As for code and data.  You are saying exactly what I ment.  The computer
>will not intentionally try to run what it thinks is data so data is not
>executed and sence the information is all data the virus can not run unless
>something already in the system knows to run it.  A fith collumnist code in
>effect
Or a security hole.  Think about how the Internet Worm managed to get
itself executed.... 

>>Since Traveller science violates such things as the Laws of Gravitation and
>>Relativity, I don't see why they can't break such things as Turing 
>machines... 
>>
>
>Actually id does not do so directly.  It supposes an undiscovered work
>arround.  Traveller ship do not travel faster than light they leave this 3d
<snip>
>gravity of.  None of this 'breaks' the rules it gets arround them by
>diverting the problem condition to a place where it is not a problem.  This
>'linked to jump space' could explain why all these technologies seem to
>appear togethere given time regardless of what race discovered them.
That's fine.  I actually misspoke (miswrote?) in the above.  I didn't mean
that Turing machines need to be violated, only bypassed.  Just as we now
know that TM>CFG>FA, perhaps someday we'll discover some computing approach
that is more powerful than a Turing Machine.  (BTW, for non CS-people out
there, a CFG is a Context-Free Grammar, and an FA is a finite automata.
Both of these are computing models that are weaker (and are subsets of) the
Turing Machine model)

>>Not true.  A "computer", according to the Oxford English Dictionary, is "a
>>calculating-machine, especially an electronic device for performing
>>mathematical and logical operations."  There is nothing in there about
>>instruction sets or boot code.  A computer is defined by what it does, not
>
>'Never was one so blind as those that will not see'
Excuse me?  If you want to continue logical debate, I'm game.  If you
intend to switch to ad hominum attacks, then tell me now so that I can stop.

<snip>
>Remember the person you are writting for understands NOTHING except addition
>and subtration.  When you are done you will have written a program for a
>'computer' as the person 'running' the program will be 'performing
>mathamatical and logical operations'.  People contiuiously think that the
>hardware does all the work in a computer.  Most computers have to have a
>program to do most higher order math functions correctly.  Those pocket
>calculaters were programed!  The program is no burned into their processor
>but it is still a program.
True for most (not all!) TL7 computers.  So what?  It doesn't matter if the
program is hardware or software.  I'm not sure where you are going with
this thought.


>>how it does it.  Just like we know that a Jump drive can move us a parsec a
>>week without understanding how it actually works, we can know that a
>>Complexity-4 computer (in GURPS) can run two complexity-4 programs.  It
>>doesn't matter how it runs them and what is actually going on inside, only
>>the effects matter.  Thus we know it can provide +5 bonuses to two ship
>>weapons,  without understanding the inner workings.
>>
>
>So you are another of the 'it's so because the book say it's so' types.
>Sorry but I an not a limming to blindly follow.  I need to have some
>understanding of the underlying logical belief structure to be able to craft
>internally consistant adventures.  To much hand waving detract from the game
>and make supention of disbelief and impatizing with the characters
>difficult.  The more internally consistant the more believable the story.
No, actually I'm not.  I do try to analyze and figure out what I can.  I'm
just willing to accept that some things are five TLs above me and are not
understandable, except in their effects.  I daresay that a caveman might be
able to figure out how to drive a car.  I doubt that he can figure out how
it works, without extensive instruction from a GTL6 sophont.

>
>And were in canon does it say that computers do not require instruction
>sets?  IIRC they require programs which are 'sequences of instructions' if
>by profeessor at my engineering colledge was not bady mistaken.  If they
>have programs they have instruction set.  One comes with the other.
No.  You just made an assumption that TL12 programs work the same as TL7
programs.  It doesn't say anywhere that they don't, but it doesn't say that
they do, either.  The effects we see seem to suggest that they don't.

>>reference.  But I'm not arguing about how Virus should or should not work.
>>All I'm saying is that your TL7 assumptions are invalid when applied to
>>TL12 computers.
>>
>
>Prove it.  That is an assumption.  I made a logical deduction from available
>data.  In traveller they are call compters, they run programs, they have
>programers, programns are 'sequences of instruction', thus logically
>travller computers have instruction set.

See my comment on instruction sets above.

>You STATE that they do not.  WHere is your proof?  What is your chain of
>logic to deduce this conclusion?

I'm not arguing against your chain of logic.  It's fine and correct.  I'm
arguing against your _assumptions_.  Your (quite excellent) arguments are
based on assumptions that I don't agree with.  

>AND where is your PROFF that the paradim will change?  Even with all the
>improvements we made in the last 5 decades the basic use and implimentation
>of logic execution of sequential instructions has not changed.  New and more
>efficent combinations of those logical instructions have been but not new
>basic paradium has been discovered.  So what is your evidenve that a major
>reinvention of logical thought will occure?
Since major re-inventions of most fields of math and science occur at least
every GTL or so.  90% of all computer development happened during GTL7.
(another 5% happened at very late 6, and another 5% at very early 8)
Within a TL, things should work on the same principles, getting slightly
better, but staying pretty much the same.  This may even be true across two
tech levels.  But not 5!

>>>Those future computers come from the minds of men.  Even assuming such
>>>advances as 'more than two state' processing systems (once much talked about
>>>but it fallen by the way side of late) and subatomic level circuits you
>>>still have to have instructions and data.
>
>>First off even the "minds of men" assumption isn't necessarily valid,
>>perhaps high TL computers are designed by other high TL computers.
>
>OK, but those original computers were designed my men and sence a coputer
>can only do what is is told (not original thought) then it's decendance will
>not contain anything newer than optimized 'variations on a theme'.
Not necessarily true, if the computers were complex enough.  Just like
Karnegie and Ritchie (two of the creators of the C programming language)
couldn't have predicted all the possible programs written in C, the
creators of the original machines may not be able to predict all of the
results of their creations, either.

>>However, I don't actually like that idea, so let's ignore it for a second.
>>I'm not saying that TL12 computer are incomprehensible to us.  If we
>>actually saw one and had it explained to us, I'm sure we'd  understand it
>>(It might require a few years at a TL12 university, but eventually we'd get
>>it.)  However, what we cannot do is predict _how_ it would work.  As an
>
>It would take only minutes at best for a person already trained in logic.
>Logic is basic, on implimentations change.  Babage could understand the
>concepts of a PC in seconds with only the idea of 'very small on off
>switches call transiters' as his clue.  Pascal might not even need that
>explained.  Disks, easy, 'magnetic writing and reading of binary states'.
>Once the basic concepts are understood method becomes only a special effect.
>With the handbook on the hardware and the CPUs manual incuding instruction
>set I can write code for ANY computer.  That is what I do everyday.
No.  You can write code for any GTL7 computer.  That's all.


>>example of this, consider Jules Verne' "20,000 leagues under the sea."  In
>>it, he predicted (correctly) that electrically powered submarines would
>>dominate future naval warfare.  The concept of the fast attack submarine
>>was valid, he got the "what".  However, he was not able to predict such
>EXACTLY!!!! That is what I am try to tell you!!!  The 'what' is the
>paradium!  Computers ARE the PHYSICAL manifistation of LOGIC!  They will
>always be based on logic so there materials may change but the paradium will
>not.
No.  The what is the effect.  In Verne it was the ability to go underwater.
 In this thread it's the ability to perform certain tasks very efficiently.
 That's all that we can assume about TL12 computers.

>Note when I say logic I mean as in boylian logic not 'proper thought'.  I
>mean and, or, not, nand, nor, xor, shift right, shift left, add, adc,
I understand that.

>>things a nuclear power plants and tomahawk missiles.  He didn't get the
>>"How".  Now I think he could learn it if a 1990s person explained them to
>>him, but he couldn't predict the how.  Same applies here.
>Yep, but we are talking different HOWs.  You are talking the physical
>manifistation which you seem to think will change logic.  It will not.  At
>best is might add states which would greatly improve through put (in orders
>of magnatude) but the underlying logic must remain if the thing call a
>computer is to compute!
No, I'm saying that the underlying logic (boolean algebra, Turing Machines,
etc.) are part of the implementation, not part of the effect.  They are the
how, not the what.


>Actually this is being done today with some newer algorithims and arcatypes.
>It is posible to do this but the logic structures behind them are bysanteen
>in the extreme.  You'd see some of this in 'fuzzy logic' systems and in
>massively parrell systems but we are only starting to exploit these logic
>structures.  Again these are only extrapolations of basic logic.  The basic
>pardium is the same it just includes 'a new implimentation of feedback to
>shorten the loop'.  
I've never heard of this defeating the NP-complete problem.  Parallel
systems don't defeat it, they still require an NP number of iterations,
just spread over multiple machines.  I don't know about fuzzy logic.

>That's in quotes becauses it the closest analogy I can
>manage.  I have not work with this structure as I do not work with either
>massively parralell systems of systems large enough to devide resources to
>simulate this effectively.  What it comes down to is synergy, the whole is
>greater that the some of it's parts.  Again this is a macro effect and not a
>change in basic structure as these system are run on standard computer
>systems.  As you said it's the HOW not the what.  The what (the computer)
>has not changed.
Err.. That's my point... The how can change, and the what remains the same.  

>OF course it is sure.  It's the autonomic nerviuos system!  Do you have to
>learn to beat your heart or digest your food or jerk your hand away from
>pain?  I'm not talking about hardwired personalities or anything that high
>up.  I'm talking the boot strap software that any healthy bady has.  Babies
>KNOW how to breath, cry, eat, digest, excreet and millions of other
>operations far to complex for todays most advanved computers to do all
>because it is hard wired into their basic ROM...DNA!  And guess what, it
>atomic scale data storage too.  Now that is high tech.!
Again, you are mixing the how and the what.  Our ability to do all those
autonomic things is the what.  Whether it acts anything like a computer is
the how.  We don't know anything at all about the how.  (well, very little
anyway.)

>>Parallel neural networks is _one_ way of approximating the brain, one that
>>we don't know is correct.  Maybe a brain has all the same parameters as a
>>Turing machine-based computer.   Maybe not.  And even if it does, a TL12
>>computer may still not have them.  The assumption that a high-TL computer
>>will work like the human brain is not necessarily true.  Maybe it works in
>>some other fashion.  Or maybe not.
>What good does this do?  You are supposing here.  We KNOW what a computers
>function is.  Structure ALWAYS follows function.  Instead of supposing lets
>try deduction.
Structure does not always follow function.  As for the supposing, I'm
trying to show you counter-examples that disprove your deduction.

>>>Changes to the macro effect does not nessecitate and micro paradiun change.
>>And likewise, similarities between macro effects don't necessitate
>>identical micro paradigms.  That's exactly my point.  Just because it acts
>>like a TL7 computer, doesn't mean it works like a TL7 computer.

>Exactly wrong.  A computer by your own difinition performs 'mathamatical and
>logical functions'.  That fixes 'what' it does.  By difinition it is a logic
>engine.  TL is not relevant.  The mechanics of an OR gate are pretty much
>fixed in it definition.  You can overcomlicate it with enificency but it's
>still an OR gate and that is a logical function.  Form follow function.  Can
>you come up with a micro paradium for an OR gate that is truely basicly
>diferent and still be an OR gate?  I don't think so.  You are tied forever
>to logic and math.
True.  But not necessarily to the logic or math we use now.  Both may
evolve beyond recognition.  Before Euclid no one had formal geometry.
Before Newton nobody could do Calculus.  Before Lobatchevski everyone knew
that Euclid was correct.  Before Turing (or Babage, or Pascal.  Take your
pick) noone knew about Turing machines.  Imagine what we can do in another
3000 years.

>Form and fuction.  That is what.  The form maybe in software of hardware but
>form follow function and these two thing define HOW and WHAT.
Form does not necessarily follow function.  It just tends to happen that
way.  That's why we have things like the iMac, which looks more like steam
iron than a computer.  (Yes, I know, I'm being silly.  But I couldn't resist.)

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:21:16 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...)

On Sun, 9 May 1999,
David Summers wrote:

>The point is that I'm not getting ice out of the gas giant.
>Gas Giants have the same problem in that fuel as at the bottom
>of this big gravity well (worse than the main world).  It is
>much easier for a lone ship to go out to the Kuiper belt,
>snag comets, and push them into orbits that bring them into
>the inner solar system.  One ship can produce a steady stream
>of these things.

"Much easier" is debatable. The Kuiper belt is a looong way out:
It's much too far for interstellar merchants who have to meet the
next mortgage payment. Most objects you can find are smaller than
golf balls: those that are big enough to be worth sending into
the inner system are rarities. Maybe you can kick a skyscraper
sized object hard enough that it will fall into the inner system
in a couple of decades instead of the couple of millennia it
would ordinarily take, but things the size of Mt. Whatever are
not that much easier to push around. It may take weeks to make a
"strike" and it's cold and dark and lonely enough out there that
insanity is a major occupational hazard.  (A well-adjusted kuiper
belter is already insane by most standards anyway)

 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:21:12 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: McClellan

>McClellan wasn't a "bad leader" as such. He was a superb
>admistrator and extremely charismatic leader. He single handedly
>rebuilt the Union Army after 1st Bull Run and turned it into the
>war winning force latter wielded by Sherman, Grant et al.
>However he was not a field commander and more than that, he knew
>he was not suitable to command an army in the field. He strongly
>recommended that Lincoln did not put him in command of the Army
>of the Potomec. However Lincoln ignored his advice and put him
>in command anyway. McClellan was a staff officer par excellance
>who was placed in a command position he knew he could not
>fufill.

I got the impression that McClellan was assured of his own
competence. He probably understood military theory and technique
better than any other Northern commander. After the war, Lee
considered him his most able opponent.  His great weakness was that he was
too cautious and not aggressive enough. No matter how careful his
preparations, they were never quite enough, and Lee was always spoiling his
careful plans. In his presidential campaign, McClellan thought the war was
unwinnable. I get the impresseion that he neither blamed himself nor
thought anyone else could do better.

Ob Traveller: A stupid little rebellion of half a dozen worlds that the
Empire should quash easily has dragged on for months, because the rebel
commander has made a parade of admirals look incompetent.  The Sector duke
is looking for someone, anyone, who can win a battle with a clear advantage
in material.
  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:26:41 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop tank numbers

Keven R. Pittsinger writes:

>>  OK. Do you have any reason to believe that this makes sense in equivalent
>>RW experience, or should in the OTU? Or IYTU?
> 
>Beats me, but then, like I say, I've not seen anything to contradict it in the 
>rules.  They flat out say the going rate is 1KCr/ton (CT/HG, dammit, *NOT* 
>somebody's homegrown system)
  
>>  Correct; IIRC the assumption of premium rates is a proviso that I've
>>included in the discussion. To attempt to discuss the economics of the
>>Traveller universe (which is, at least allegedly, fictional) in a serious
>>fashion without that consideration seems pointless.
> 
>House rule, eh?

Keven, if Traveller had had a rule for calculating the gravity of a world
and one day you plugged in the numbers for Earth and came up with a figure
of 0.1G, would you consider anyone who insisted that Earth's gravity was
1G to be playing by house rules?
 
Well, the flat-rate-for-all-jumps-regardless-of-distance rule is the
economic equivalent of a gravitational field that grows less the closer
you are to a planet. If you insist on sticking to that, then by all means
do so, but let's agree to disagree, OK?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
  "Free speech gives a man the right to talk about the
'psycology' of an amoeba, but I don't have to listen".
                  Elihu Nivens in 'The Puppet Masters'

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #605
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 11 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 606



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Depreciation
Re: You might not belive this... 
Re: one minor comment on Virus
Need info from Scouts & WBH
Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?
Re: Wiccans in Space
Re: one minor comment on Virus
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)
GURPS Rules Geek Required
Re: You might not belive this...
Re: one minor comment on Virus
Re: Post TNE ship design rules
Re: I'm back from sea
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: Gene Bank
Re: I'm back from sea
Re: Stupid GM Tricks
Re: I'm back from sea
Deckplans for modular cutters
Re: You might not belive this...
Re: one minor comment on Virus

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:33:28 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Depreciation

Thad Coons wrote:
> 
> Dave Nelson wrote:
> 
> >Perhaps  starships are not a depeciating asset, as automobiles
> >are, but rather retain most of their value, as houses and other
> >real property do (makes it easier to run a campaign this
> >way--who cares how old it is, if it works then full price)
> 
>    Homeowners don't usually depreciate their homes (if well-
> maintained, these often increase in value over the duration of
> ownership), but businesses usually do depreciate buildings.

Not necessarily...for instance, if they wish to use the buildings as
collateral for a loan, they almost certainly will _not_ depreciate
them... unless they're playing fast and loose with the rules of
generally accepted accounting practice.

After all, 'twas shenanigans like that that got our dear, unlamented
ex-governor convicted on fraud charges.

They'll certainly depreciate the _insides_ of the buildings, but
buildings, like homes, are assumed to appreciate and depreciate per the
existing real estate market.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:33:42 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: You might not belive this... 

At 03:56 AM 5/11/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> In a message dated 99-05-11 03:01:16 EDT, you write:
>> 
>> << Ruh rho, Shaggy.
>>  
>>  Frankie
>>   >>
>> 
>> I'm missing something here.  What does a greek letter, a dogs (?) name and 
>> something else have to with each other?
>
>I *think* you missed Saturday morning cartoons.  Scooby Doo's fave line was 
>'Rhu rho...'  Talked pretty good, for a dog...

Proto Vargr?

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:40:33 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

Charles Prevatte wrote:
> 
> >A uniform system, top to bottom, running on standardized parts and
> >standardized software, is _just_ the thing those conservative bean-counters
> >would see as a valuable thing. It would streamline procurement, make support
> >significantly easier, faster and cheaper, and standardize training issues
> >across the Imperium.
> >
> >Hmmm, sound familiar?
> >
> 
> Yes, it is a version for what I put forth in my Virusbeard declaration.
> Have A look at it.  I'd love to hear your coments.

I guess I missed it; if it was posted under the title 'A 12 -step
program..." please send me a copy private or tell where I can get to it,
as I've been skipping over that particular greasy horse-shaped spot.

> >Notice the ones to survive Virus in TNE were the hacked up old Free Traders
> >running a motley assortment of software and hardware, and having to do most of
> >the work themselves...
> >
> 
> Manual overrides anyone?

More like:

Captain to new crewmember:

"Well, the damn nic in the aft engineering workstation died a month ago,
and since it's a 150 year old model, it's been hard to find parts...so
we just do everything by hand...I know, I know, it's a pain, and someday
we're gonna have to jump on less than 12 hours notice...I'll get
_around_ to it, ok? Now go pound on the forward stab'rd ventilation
controller, the damn relay's stuck closed again, and if that keeps up
it's gonna be like an icebox in the passenger cabins again."

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:32:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Need info from Scouts & WBH

My copy of Scouts is buried in storage, and I don't have World
Builder's handbook. And none of the *other* stuff I can find has the
*advanced* world generation info. 

What I need are:

Size (nominal, and range) for Large and Small Gas Giants (km or miles)
Size for the classes of stars (in terms of km or in terms of the size
of our sun, either will work)
Diameters or radii for all orbit numbers for stars (km, miles or AU). 
Diameters or radii for all orbit numbers for planets (km, miles, or AU).

On that last, if it depends on the size of the planet, then just tell
me that and I won't worry about it.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:39:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?

In mail you write:

>> "Ray Gun Freezed Victims Without Causing Injury".
>
>         Hmm. They have just re-published an old concept, which has
>         appeared on research papers for since 1980's. Slightly more
>         technical article of the recnet HSV's "tetanizer" can be
>         found in January 1999 issue of Photonics Spectra.
>
>         According to Photonics Spectra, the main problem with tetanizer
>         that the required UV laser (193-nm ArF eximer) is currently
>         as large as a small refrigerator, and has only 40 Hz pulse rate.
>         Currently HSV does not have a working model of the device, and
>         unless there are radical advances in laser technology, the
>         tetanizer is likely to be too heavy to be a man-portable weapon.

Heck, back in the 60s, Walt & Leigh Richmond came up with a man
portable gizmo along those lines. It was intended as something that
could slip past customs and then later be assembled into a weapon good
enough to take better weapons from the government forces. 

Part one was a motorized squirt gun, obviously a toy. Slightly odd in
that it shot a pair of streams, not just one. Only close examination
would note that each stream had an independent reservoir and pump. 

Add a few simple components, and a bigger battery (all of which fit
into "decorative" spaces on the "toy" gun). 

The result? A stun pistol. The *salt* water streams carry a few
kilovolts. And range 30-50 feet. Though they were mostly used at much
shorter range.

Press the button, the streams hit the victim and he goes down quivering
until you clobber him and take his gun. Pass the squirter back to
another rebel and keep advancing. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:51:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Wiccans in Space

In mail you write:

> Yah, Yah, trying to figure out how to describe the "Green" jump drive.

<innocently>

Is that anything like the Sheewash drive?

</innocently>

(5 points to the first one to get the reference)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:54:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

In mail you write:

> rant/
>
> WHY the _hell_ don't they just include a damn software switch in MS
> Word to just turn off macro use entirely??? No one uses 'em, at least
> in Word anymore, except the virus punks...All I want to to is be able
> to tell my word processor (which, BTW, I actually LIKE Word as) that
> it's _not_ a #@$!@*&?&^ compiler or interpreter, just a mechanism for
> putting words on paper...dammit!!!
>
> /rant

They have a switch to turn off "autoexecute" macros, which are the big
problem. But it defaults to "on".

And a lot of people *do* use macros.

The problem is that MS decided that rather than expand the
then-existing macro language(s) in their various products, it was
"simpler" to replace them with the Visual Basic "core". So now the
macro language is *far* too powerful, and has tons of unneeded
functionality. But they've reduced the amount of code they need to
support and "made it easier" by having a uniform command set.

> Contrast this to Microsoft, which had to shut down their corporate network
> _completely_ to fix the problem.

Or to setups like mine. I'm running a text only mail/news readrer
(written in Pascal!). I've received copies of Happy99.exe several
times. I used a standalone MIME decoder convert the "attachment" into a
file. Then I saved a copy in my "virus zoo". 

> Contrary to someone else's comment regarding Vilani conservatism, an all MS
> solution is _just_ what they would do: "No one ever got fired for specifying
> IBM". 

Actually, as far as PCs go, that hasn't been true since shortly after
the PS/2 was released. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:06:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)

In mail you write:

> Takes longer for the chunks to get insystem though.  And it takes
> time to find those chunks out there.  They're not exactly an ice cube
> every 200 meters, y'know.

If you've got a GG with a fairly *new* ring system (like Saturn), then
you can use ice chunks from there.

If you've got an asteroid belt past the "ice line" (the distance from
the star where sub km chunks of ice are long term stable) then that's a
good choice, as it *will* have a fair number of ice chunks (and few
carbonaceous chondrites).

If you go out to the Kuiper belt, sure they'll be far apart. But ypu'll
also be about to find *big* chunks. They'll be rarer, but easier to
find. 

A simple ion drive or mass driver can be installed on them and they'll
head in-system. It'll take *decades* if not a century or two. But it'll
also take that sort of time scale to use them up. 

And in the meantime you keep working on putting them into a more
convenient orbit (mostly by moving in the apoapsis). 

>> Make that a lot of tonnage flinging around in a narrow range of
>> orbits.  Orbits that, even in todays technology, are easy to
>> determine.  Of course you choose orbits that pass just outside
>> of the 100 diam limit (so they won't cross the path of ships
>> travelling out to the limit) until the thrusters kick in and
>> slow them down (in case they fail) an put them into some predetermine
>> plantary orbit for later retreival.
>
> Obviously you'd give the ice cubes the right-of-way insystem.

And if you've got people busily refining the ice, the "waste" they dump
overboard (mostly rock dust) will make a decent, if not spectactular
comet tail, making them *easy* to see.

I say refining, because, since you'd need a few people to tend to the
drive, you might as well have a few more and have them process the ice.
They'll have a nice place to live for quite a few years (lots of the
hard to find life support chemicals like nitrogen). And they can use a
mass driver to boost refined "ice" into orbits that'll get it to the
inner system much faster. And help bring the body into the desired
orbit. 

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised to see such "ice miners" also growing
enough food to export!
  
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:26:32 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: GURPS Rules Geek Required

Send reply to:  	seanm.punch@sympatico.ca
Date sent:      	Mon, 10 May 1999 15:10:04 -0400

Folks --

We have copy editing for GT ALIEN RACES 2 under control, but we need
someone to go over the rules -- just rules, not non-rules content -- with a
fine-toothed comb. This will be an honest-to-goodness editing contract for
c. $400, so please speak up only if you have at least some editorial
experience and can meet a relatively tight deadline (starting ASAP,
preferably by May 14; finishing ASAP, preferably by May 28). We'll probably
look at a few applications before deciding, but please reply sooner rather
than later.



Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:32:12 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: You might not belive this...

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 99-05-11 03:01:16 EDT, you write:
><< Ruh rho, Shaggy.
> Frankie

>I'm missing something here.  What does a greek letter, a dogs (?) name and
>something else have to with each other?


Scooby Doo.

Hanna Barbera?

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:28:23 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:
>rant/
>
>WHY the _hell_ don't they just include a damn software switch in MS Word to
>just turn off macro use entirely??? No one uses 'em, at least in Word anymore,
>except the virus punks...All I want to to is be able to tell my word processor
>(which, BTW, I actually LIKE Word as) that it's _not_ a #@$!@*&?&^ compiler or
>interpreter, just a mechanism for putting words on paper...dammit!!!
>
>/rant

Err, hidden in Word 97's options is a tick box which lets you have the
option to switch off macro's on files you open...

>Contrast this to Microsoft, which had to shut down their corporate network
>_completely_ to fix the problem.

Or me, who solved the problem with MacOS 8.5, ClarisWorks 5, Eudora Lite
and Navigator 4 ;-)

<snip>
>Wonder if they had penguin decals on their systems ....;->

Hmm. That must be the STL ship option, SlowTime..

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:19:25 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Post TNE ship design rules

 Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> wrote:
>For GURPS, I think something like GT:Shipyard is going to provide
>a full range of Traveller specific components.

It does. But you'll need MacOS to run it.

http://www.bits.org.uk/ and go to products to download the demo

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:22:47 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:

>And, I suspect you missed his point...in the UK cider does NOT typically mean
>that sweet apple-juice stuff we feed to babies but something considerably
>harder. It's not until the next morning that you truly regret that it does
>indeed taste like a soft drink... >:-) Feeling better today, Dom?

Ugh.

After midday, the world got a lot quieter, the sun dimmed and the man
banging the drum in my head went away...

Suffice it to say, I don't usually drink cider (probably as it seems to be
an alcohol delivery system which hides the kick in the fruit huice).

Stephen, think >5% alcohol fermented apple juice. Dr Pepper passed me by.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:36:14 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In a message dated 99-05-11 06:21:12 EDT, you write:

<< Not any more, unless there's some on the old cassette tapes in the garage. 
 >>

I assume that you don't mean the data tapes that people use now en days?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:45:44 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

- -----Original Message-----
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 11 May 1999 08:09
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation


>
>>>This makes sense, the oldest working oyster boat in Dunedin just
turned
>100
>>>yesterday, and anyone remember how old the Mary Rose was when she
went
>down?
>>
>> If it's the 16th C. warship you're referring to wasn't she newly
>purpose-built?
>
>I suspect she may have been <grin>, but she sunk some 300 years or
more
>after she was built.
> I'm not talking about any recent reconstructions, I'm talking about
the
>original.
>
>Frankie
>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------
Hmmm....

I think your pinkie was a little eager on the 0 key <g>, nearer *30*
years in actual fact.

I got this from the Mary Rose web site....
( http://www.maryrose.org/ )

<quote>

The Mary Rose is the only 16th century warship on display anywhere in
the world. Built between 1509 and 1511, she was one of the first ships
able to fire a broadside, and was a firm favourite of King Henry VIII.
After a long and successful career, she sank accidentally during an
engagement with the French fleet in 1545. Her rediscovery and raising
were seminal events in the history of nautical archaeology.

</quote>

I visited the exhibition in Portsmouth while studying a unit on
Maritime Archaeology at Southampton Uni. in the early '90s....very
impressive <g>.

regards

Matt

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
visit my web site =>      www.akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:47:10 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Gene Bank

In a message dated 99-05-11 09:00:05 EDT, you write:

<< Come to think of it, why bother carrying all that delicate DNA?
 Just store all the information on electronic media. Much of the 
 human genome is not usefully different between individuals, so
 you might need one master 'electronic genome' plus a few variants
 of a couple of thousand genes. This would allow you to do some
 genetic tinkering (if your morality allows it), and start a 
 population as big as you want. DNA can be generated according to 
 the electronic plan, and put into stored or artificial cells. >>

Not a bad idea...
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:50:04 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea

In a message dated 99-05-11 09:02:30 EDT, you write:

<< Actually, Dr. Pepper is a cherry cola. >>

Really?  Hmm, well, I'll have to get the official word about this.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:02:07 -0700
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid GM Tricks

> GM: "The door swings inward, revealing a room 60' deep and 
> 30' wide, with a 30' ceiling. A torch in each corner provides 
> light, and you see a stone alter near the far end. All the 
> walls are covered by curtains, and a floor-to-ceiling curtain 
> across the center of the room blocks...um...#@%*&!... 
> The door swings inward, revealing a room 30' deep by 30' wide..."
> 
> Peez


And I thought I was the only one who had brain fart as GM

Wayne
wewart@home.com
ICQ 22113294 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 14:06:13 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea

The original Dr. Pepper did indeed use prune juice as a primary
ingedient.  The newer version is something different, I know not what.

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition


On Tue, 11 May 1999 13:50:04 EDT SRKOALA@aol.com writes:
>In a message dated 99-05-11 09:02:30 EDT, you write:
>
><< Actually, Dr. Pepper is a cherry cola. >>
>
>Really?  Hmm, well, I'll have to get the official word about this.
>-Stephen

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:00:28 +0300
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi>
Subject: Deckplans for modular cutters

Are there any published deckplans for modular cutters, especially for the
modules?

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:16:31 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: You might not belive this...

In a message dated 99-05-11 10:21:45 EDT, you write:

<< Whattya mean Saturday??? Scooby's on all the time, right there after
 Freakazoid and the Road Rovers, and before Cow and Chik....uhhh, desn't
 _everyone_ get (and _watch_) the Cartoon Network?? ;-) >>

Not I, to far out and two far down.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:15:13 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

In a message dated 99-05-11 10:12:47 EDT, you write:

<< > << I hate to wade into a Virus flamewar, but you are aware of all the OS 
bugs
 >  that
 >  let long addresses, subject lines, or other parts of email messages spill
 > over
 >  into other pieces of memory and get executed as code, aren't you?
 
 Buffer Overruns, the 3leet hakur d00d's best friend...
 
 >  Or one could remember the Cornell Worm... >>
 > 
 > What is a worm (computer, not Earth)?
 
 In theory, a worm like the Cornell Worm is a program that copies itself to
 another computer, then erases itself where it was, thus 'worming' it's way
 through the network. Usually, to ensure the wide spreading of itself and
 against 'death' (being copied to a computer that cannot run it), it'll copy
 itself to several computers before the erasing bit.

xxxx
Ah, okay, I see, how does it copy its self to another computer (does it need 
some one to kick start it)?
xxxx
 
 Robert Morris' problem was that his worm copied itself too often, too fast
 (due to a bug in the program) and got out of control. It also got _out_...the
 first run was to be a test on a select number of computers. It also spread
 because the internet used highly uniform software and hardware at the time,
 and people hadn't thought to worry about stuff like that yet.

xxxx
"Uh-oh"
"What do you mean 'uh-oh?'"
xxxx
 
 A more modern example is the melissa 'virus'...again, spread due to highly
 uniform software and computing platforms. By listening to the news, you would
 have thought that Melissa brought the worlds computers to their
 knees...actually, only those willing to run a single-source solution,
 Microsoft _everything_ were truly susceptible. If you didn't use MS Outlook 
as
 your mail client, even if you DID use MS Word as your word processor you were
 safe from the destructive effects of the virus. If you didn't use MS Exchange
 as your mail server on an MS WinNT host, you were spared _some_ of the
 carnage, because a Unix box running sendmail scales a heckuva lot better.

xxxx
Well, I get away from all of the Microsh!t that I can, to many problems.
xxxx
 
 Witness the UofA: by all accounts Melissa was _very_ widespread on campus,
 every department got hit. But we saw hardly any problems with mail service at
 all.  Our College, which does not use either MS OutPuke or Exchange, simply
 had to deal with the macro virus problem.
 
 rant/
 
 WHY the _hell_ don't they just include a damn software switch in MS Word to
 just turn off macro use entirely??? No one uses 'em, at least in Word 
anymore,
 except the virus punks...All I want to to is be able to tell my word 
processor
 (which, BTW, I actually LIKE Word as) that it's _not_ a #@$!@*&?&^ compiler 
or
 interpreter, just a mechanism for putting words on paper...dammit!!!

xxxx
The want to sell it to you by its self...
xxxx
 
 /rant
 
 Contrast this to Microsoft, which had to shut down their corporate network
 _completely_ to fix the problem.

xxxx
Hehehe
xxxx
 
 obTrav: One thread running through canon is the 'Imperial Data Package' which
 seems to be a huge set of instructions on just about everything from ACR's to
 Starships. One would presume that Computer programs are a large part of it.
 There is a great deal of implied standardization throughout the Imperium.
 
 Contrary to someone else's comment regarding Vilani conservatism, an all MS
 solution is _just_ what they would do: "No one ever got fired for specifying
 IBM". 
 
 A uniform system, top to bottom, running on standardized parts and
 standardized software, is _just_ the thing those conservative bean-counters
 would see as a valuable thing. It would streamline procurement, make support
 significantly easier, faster and cheaper, and standardize training issues
 across the Imperium.
 
 Hmmm, sound familiar?
 
 Notice the ones to survive Virus in TNE were the hacked up old Free Traders
 running a motley assortment of software and hardware, and having to do most 
of
 the work themselves... >>

Thanks for all the informashion, it helps a lot.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #606
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 11 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 607



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: one minor comment on Virus
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel...
Sheewash Drive
Re: I'm back from sea
Old Computer Fogey was Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: one minor comment on Virus

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:17:02 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

- -----Original Message-----
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>

<snip>

>>Notice the ones to survive Virus in TNE were the hacked up old Free
Traders
>>running a motley assortment of software and hardware, and having to
do most of
>>the work themselves...
>>
>
>Manual overrides anyone?
>
>Charles L.


Yeah...but there are some computer controlled shipboard functions that
just *can't* be manually overridden (except by just shutting the
offending system down <g>)
eg Power Plant, Jump Drive etc.  These systems require input or
adjustments in such a rapid timeframe that it would be impossible to
manually control them

IMTU, TMMV

regards

Matt

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
visit my web site =>      www.akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:22:12 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel...

In a message dated 99-05-11 10:25:52 EDT, you write:

<<  I happen to suspect that the cheapest thing would be to get water from a
 worlds surface - fewer losses to skimming accidents over the years. However,
 I assumed that this was not an option for arguments sake - it's just too 
 easy, and not universally available. GG skimming probably (?) wins overall.
  >>

What about a VERY long teather that links a docking/prosesing plant to a fuel 
scoop in the GG?  You would need CG to keep it from falling into the GG.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:34:39 MST
From: "Jim Moss" <jkmoss@hotmail.com>
Subject: Sheewash Drive

_The Witches of Karras_, right <grin>?

J

==============================
<innocently>

Is that anything like the Sheewash drive?

</innocently>

(5 points to the first one to get the reference)


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:33:54 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea

In a message dated 99-05-11 13:37:26 EDT, you write:

<< After midday, the world got a lot quieter, the sun dimmed and the man
 banging the drum in my head went away...
 
 Suffice it to say, I don't usually drink cider (probably as it seems to be
 an alcohol delivery system which hides the kick in the fruit huice).
 
 Stephen, think >5% alcohol fermented apple juice. Dr Pepper passed me by. >>

I agree, apple juice does a good job of hiding the alcohol.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:05:23 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Old Computer Fogey was Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

>From: SRKOALA@aol.com types out with two fingers:
>In a message dated 99-05-11 06:21:12 EDT, you write:
><< Not any more, unless there's some on the old cassette tapes in the garage. 
>I assume that you don't mean the data tapes that people use now en days?

     The original 5150 IBM PC did not come with a 128 byte 5 1/4" floppy drive.
It used audio cassette tapes.  A special cord connected a port on the
system to a standard cassette player/recorder.

     An old friend who enjoyed composing music for the PC's paper speaker
even had some of her tunes accessing the cassette as a percussion device.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:58:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 99-05-11 06:21:12 EDT, you write:
>
> << Not any more, unless there's some on the old cassette tapes in the 
> garage. 
>  >>
>
> I assume that you don't mean the data tapes that people use now en days?
> -Stephen

<curmudgeon mode on>
In the old days, youngster, the only storage for personal computers was
paper tape (which required expensive surpulus paper tape readers and
punches) or cassette tape (as in standard household tape recorders). 

300 baud was about standard. About the time floppies started to become
somewhat affordable (I was glad to pay *only* $150 for a drive!) data
rates for tapes got somewhat better. Say 1500 baud. 

I have a *lot* of old cassette tapes in a box in the bedroom, as well
as a cassette recorder that's "optimized" for computer use. 

You young whiuppersnappers just have no appreciation for things...

<curmudgeon mode off>

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:46:33 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 11:52 AM 5/11/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Part of the problem I have is this supposed perminate self modification
>ability.  The computers on traveller ships would be general purpose main
>frames.  Designed to run what ever was needed.  That would mean that either
>they could not be self modifying (because if a program perminately changed
>the computer to better run itself then other programs would either not run
>at all or run badly or slowly) or if they were self modifying they would
>have to have a mechanism to return those cercuits to there orginal
>configuration to run diffeerent programs (if the circuits can be reset then
>the virus can be purged!).  A hardware based self modifying abilty is
>generally reserved for dedecated systems not general purpose systems.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>This is not a problem if you're willing to rethink the materials computers
>are made of at higher TL.
>
>The computer core doesn't have to be hard-wired silicon. Take some kind
>of mutable matrix, make it in massive quantites. Chop a chunk of it off
>and put it in a computer as a central core, then run a configuration
>and optimization program to set the core up to best use it's hardware,
>programs and peripherals. Of course, you only intend to run the config 
>routine once - but maybe you don't get rid of it, maybe you'll run it again
>two years from now (much like a user of today might reinstall their
>operating system to "clean things up a bit"). The config is run from a 
>small, dedicated computer - that probably also has one of these high-tech
>mutable cores. The peripherals probably have the same cores inside
>them as well. All of which would be the ideal environment for Virus.
>

Sorry, canon problem here.  This technology exists today.  The problem is in
order to run the config more than once you need to be able to reset the core
to it's original unconfigured pattern.  The reason is that you create the
configuration by eliminating posible curcuit paths untill you have the
pattern you want.  To reconfigure the circuits you must first restore the
'unused' paths you removed in the first time though (if it is a configure
more than once model.)  You are reseting the system.  This would wipe out
the virus in a way it could not defend against.  The virus, according to
canon, is much harder to get rid of than that.  Also with this functionality
fighting the virus would be a cake walk.  You set up a recursive self
replicating pattern killing routine that guts the virus as it tries to take
over the system.  You even have a readily obtainable master key to use in
targeting this overwatch program.  While the system you perpose would be
easy for the virus to concure in would be easily 'virus proofed' by even a
doofer of a system operater.  Open button super reset!  Then reconfigure in
an easy to deduce virus proof configuration.  It even rids you of the danger
of 'seeds', reconfigure everything at the same time using your factory
provided ROM utility disk that is not writable so is 100% virus proof!  
"Viruses, we don't worry about eenniee siiiinkiingg viirruuussssseeesssss!"

Also, reconfigurable systems like these can not be at the cutting edge as
far as speed and efficency.  They will be a good bit slower with less
features and fewer bells and whisles.  They will be much larger than a
compatable purpose built system and depending on market forces a little or a
lot more expensive depening on production quantities.  As the old saying
goes, Jack off all trades master of none.

On the plus side fixing compatability problems would be quick and easy and
emergency repairs could be made easily by reconfiguring non vital cores to
replace lost vital cores using your factory provided configuration ROMs.
Such a design would be good for long durtation ships where the higher cost
and greater space requirement are balenced against greater interchanability.

Military front line ships would have some of these reconfigurable units or a
good stock of spare specialty units to replace lost specialised units AFTER
the battle and multiply redundant armored and hardened dedicated SOTA
primary systems (black boxes).

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:46:44 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

At 12:01 PM 5/11/99 -0400, you wrote:
>First off, let me explain something about what I mean when I say a TL-based
>assumption is invalid.  I don't mean that it must be false.  All I'm saying
>is that it _may_ be false.  I just don't feel like writing that out 50
>times per post.  
>
>At 02:26 PM 5/11/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>Yes there is.  It is call logic.  Computer operate on logical princples that
>>is how they are able to do what we tell them.  By simple logic if they are
>>to do the jobs we want them to do they must follow our instructions.  Those
>>instrunctions must be understandable to the computer.  Those instruction
>>they understand are their instructions set.  The exact nature of those
>>instruct will change over time but they will alway be present because the
>>computers must deal with human and are made by us to serve us.
>
>The need for instructions is true.  However, the assumption that the
>instruction set is closed may not be true.  Perhaps a system can create
>it's own instructions on the fly?  Who knows?
>

Of course they can.  Current systems can do that now but those instruction
are not perminate.  They are 'lost' during power on reset.  It is posible to
build a system that could retain those create codes but what would be the
point in s general purpose mainframe?  It could be much more efficent and a
much more secure system to store those specialty codes in the ROM based
programs and load those needed for each program as it is needed.

Just because something can be done does not mean that is should be done or
will be done.

>>As for code and data.  You are saying exactly what I ment.  The computer
>>will not intentionally try to run what it thinks is data so data is not
>>executed and sence the information is all data the virus can not run unless
>>something already in the system knows to run it.  A fith collumnist code in
>>effect
>Or a security hole.  Think about how the Internet Worm managed to get
>itself executed.... 
>

True, that was part of my point.  You HAVE to know the target system.  The
only way the virus could work the way it works in canon is if a stardarized
cross compiler based language and a standardise OS were the rule 3I wide.
Then hardware incompatability becomes a mute point.

>>>Since Traveller science violates such things as the Laws of Gravitation and
>>>Relativity, I don't see why they can't break such things as Turing 
>>machines... 
>>>
>>
>>Actually id does not do so directly.  It supposes an undiscovered work
>>arround.  Traveller ship do not travel faster than light they leave this 3d
><snip>
>>gravity of.  None of this 'breaks' the rules it gets arround them by
>>diverting the problem condition to a place where it is not a problem.  This
>>'linked to jump space' could explain why all these technologies seem to
>>appear togethere given time regardless of what race discovered them.

>That's fine.  I actually misspoke (miswrote?) in the above.  I didn't mean
>that Turing machines need to be violated, only bypassed.  Just as we now
>know that TM>CFG>FA, perhaps someday we'll discover some computing approach
>that is more powerful than a Turing Machine.  (BTW, for non CS-people out
>there, a CFG is a Context-Free Grammar, and an FA is a finite automata.
>Both of these are computing models that are weaker (and are subsets of) the
>Turing Machine model)
>

I'm hoping for a massive library of pretested algorithims combined with a
voice interfaced expert system useing a natural language programing method.
The expert system would take the discription of the program and best guess
it from it's own experience and then run all posible flow paths until all
unexceptable termination had been detected and fixed.  The result is then
handed back the the operater for 'look and feel' modifications.  The process
is repeated untill the final product is achieved at which the expert system
optomises the code and creates a source code that can be compiled by an
optomising compiler for the target platform.

>>>Not true.  A "computer", according to the Oxford English Dictionary, is "a
>>>calculating-machine, especially an electronic device for performing
>>>mathematical and logical operations."  There is nothing in there about
>>>instruction sets or boot code.  A computer is defined by what it does, not
>>
>>'Never was one so blind as those that will not see'
>Excuse me?  If you want to continue logical debate, I'm game.  If you
>intend to switch to ad hominum attacks, then tell me now so that I can stop.
>

Sorry, it was ment as a wry comment not an dig.  The explaination was in the
section you cut.

><snip>
>>Remember the person you are writting for understands NOTHING except addition
>>and subtration.  When you are done you will have written a program for a
>>'computer' as the person 'running' the program will be 'performing
>>mathamatical and logical operations'.  People contiuiously think that the
>>hardware does all the work in a computer.  Most computers have to have a
>>program to do most higher order math functions correctly.  Those pocket
>>calculaters were programed!  The program is no burned into their processor
>>but it is still a program.

>True for most (not all!) TL7 computers.  So what?  It doesn't matter if the
>program is hardware or software.  I'm not sure where you are going with
>this thought.
>

It makes a great deal of difference what functionality is hard coded and
software but that is not the point.  The point is (and the reference in that
quote you took offense to, none was intended) was the the definition of
'computer' fixes it structure.  It has to by definition have an fixed
instruction set containing curtain functionallity to qualify for the term
computer.  It also has to be logic base according to the definition sence it
must be able to do logical operations.  All of this fixes the nature of the
thing called a computer.  Your own definition proves my point that was the
meaning of the quote.

>
>>>how it does it.  Just like we know that a Jump drive can move us a parsec a
>>>week without understanding how it actually works, we can know that a
>>>Complexity-4 computer (in GURPS) can run two complexity-4 programs.  It
>>>doesn't matter how it runs them and what is actually going on inside, only
>>>the effects matter.  Thus we know it can provide +5 bonuses to two ship
>>>weapons,  without understanding the inner workings.
>>>
>>
>>So you are another of the 'it's so because the book say it's so' types.
>>Sorry but I an not a limming to blindly follow.  I need to have some
>>understanding of the underlying logical belief structure to be able to craft
>>internally consistant adventures.  To much hand waving detract from the game
>>and make supention of disbelief and impatizing with the characters
>>difficult.  The more internally consistant the more believable the story.

>No, actually I'm not.  I do try to analyze and figure out what I can.  I'm
>just willing to accept that some things are five TLs above me and are not
>understandable, except in their effects.  I daresay that a caveman might be
>able to figure out how to drive a car.  I doubt that he can figure out how
>it works, without extensive instruction from a GTL6 sophont.
>

Agreed, but a computer is defined by what is does not what it is made of.
There are computers built out of gears.  The definition define a collection
of functions.  Form alway follows function.

>>
>>And were in canon does it say that computers do not require instruction
>>sets?  IIRC they require programs which are 'sequences of instructions' if
>>by profeessor at my engineering colledge was not bady mistaken.  If they
>>have programs they have instruction set.  One comes with the other.

>No.  You just made an assumption that TL12 programs work the same as TL7
>programs.  It doesn't say anywhere that they don't, but it doesn't say that
>they do, either.  The effects we see seem to suggest that they don't.
>

Programs are by definition 'logical sequences of instructions'.  So if TL12
computers (by your definition, a math and logic processing device) run
programs (by definition, logical sequences of instructions) then TL12
computer ARE just more advanced versions of today computers and by simple
extrapolation their nature can be logically deduced.

>>>reference.  But I'm not arguing about how Virus should or should not work.
>>>All I'm saying is that your TL7 assumptions are invalid when applied to
>>>TL12 computers.
>>>
>>
>>Prove it.  That is an assumption.  I made a logical deduction from available
>>data.  In traveller they are call compters, they run programs, they have
>>programers, programns are 'sequences of instruction', thus logically
>>travller computers have instruction set.
>
>See my comment on instruction sets above.
>

This is not a logical responce.  You say that future computers might not
have instruction sets.  I'm saying by the definitions of the terms they
must.  No choice they must or you must change the definition.

>>You STATE that they do not.  WHere is your proof?  What is your chain of
>>logic to deduce this conclusion?
>
>I'm not arguing against your chain of logic.  It's fine and correct.  I'm
>arguing against your _assumptions_.  Your (quite excellent) arguments are
>based on assumptions that I don't agree with.  
>

Not assumption, english and technical definitions.  The definition for
computer was provide by you.

>>AND where is your PROFF that the paradim will change?  Even with all the
>>improvements we made in the last 5 decades the basic use and implimentation
>>of logic execution of sequential instructions has not changed.  New and more
>>efficent combinations of those logical instructions have been but not new
>>basic paradium has been discovered.  So what is your evidenve that a major
>>reinvention of logical thought will occure?

>Since major re-inventions of most fields of math and science occur at least
>every GTL or so.  90% of all computer development happened during GTL7.
>(another 5% happened at very late 6, and another 5% at very early 8)
>Within a TL, things should work on the same principles, getting slightly
>better, but staying pretty much the same.  This may even be true across two
>tech levels.  But not 5!
>

So are you saying that basic logic and 3d physics are going to be proven
completely wrong and not applicable in 5 tech levels?  Deductive reasoning
will be proven to not work?   That effect is followed by cause?  I do not
think this is what you mean.  I for one belive there are laws that are not
going to change over any amount of time in our 3d world.

>>>>Those future computers come from the minds of men.  Even assuming such
>>>>advances as 'more than two state' processing systems (once much talked about
>>>>but it fallen by the way side of late) and subatomic level circuits you
>>>>still have to have instructions and data.
>>
>>>First off even the "minds of men" assumption isn't necessarily valid,
>>>perhaps high TL computers are designed by other high TL computers.
>>
>>OK, but those original computers were designed my men and sence a coputer
>>can only do what is is told (not original thought) then it's decendance will
>>not contain anything newer than optimized 'variations on a theme'.

>Not necessarily true, if the computers were complex enough.  Just like
>Karnegie and Ritchie (two of the creators of the C programming language)
>couldn't have predicted all the possible programs written in C, the
>creators of the original machines may not be able to predict all of the
>results of their creations, either.
>

Posibly, but the problem to be solve will be defined by men and computers
are notoriously unimaginative so it would take some 'outside force' to drive
a leap of technological power by a computer designer.   Outside inspiration
as it were or a pure change occurence.  Perhaps a 'bug' in the original
program...(grin)

>>>However, I don't actually like that idea, so let's ignore it for a second.
>>>I'm not saying that TL12 computer are incomprehensible to us.  If we
>>>actually saw one and had it explained to us, I'm sure we'd  understand it
>>>(It might require a few years at a TL12 university, but eventually we'd get
>>>it.)  However, what we cannot do is predict _how_ it would work.  As an
>>
>>It would take only minutes at best for a person already trained in logic.
>>Logic is basic, on implimentations change.  Babage could understand the
>>concepts of a PC in seconds with only the idea of 'very small on off
>>switches call transiters' as his clue.  Pascal might not even need that
>>explained.  Disks, easy, 'magnetic writing and reading of binary states'.
>>Once the basic concepts are understood method becomes only a special effect.
>>With the handbook on the hardware and the CPUs manual incuding instruction
>>set I can write code for ANY computer.  That is what I do everyday.

>No.  You can write code for any GTL7 computer.  That's all.
>

Can you PROVE that?  Are you saying that with the technical data a TL7
technition can not program a TL12 computer?  How do you KNOW that?  TL12
computer may have so very powerful help systems inculded or even expert
system that do most of the programing for you.

>
>>>example of this, consider Jules Verne' "20,000 leagues under the sea."  In
>>>it, he predicted (correctly) that electrically powered submarines would
>>>dominate future naval warfare.  The concept of the fast attack submarine
>>>was valid, he got the "what".  However, he was not able to predict such
>>EXACTLY!!!! That is what I am try to tell you!!!  The 'what' is the
>>paradium!  Computers ARE the PHYSICAL manifistation of LOGIC!  They will
>>always be based on logic so there materials may change but the paradium will
>>not.
>No.  The what is the effect.  In Verne it was the ability to go underwater.
> In this thread it's the ability to perform certain tasks very efficiently.
> That's all that we can assume about TL12 computers.
>

Based on the definition you provided there is a lot I can say about those
TL12 computers.  If they understand English I could quickly learn to do
basic programing as I already know many of the operaters like + and -.

>>Note when I say logic I mean as in boylian logic not 'proper thought'.  I
>>mean and, or, not, nand, nor, xor, shift right, shift left, add, adc,
>I understand that.
>

If you understsand that and your definition is that a computer 'performs
logical and mathamatical operations' then why do you say they are not
understandable?  You have a conplete subset of command instruction in thos
two operational sets.  I've written many programs and many more subroutines
using only these operaters and raw data.

>>>things a nuclear power plants and tomahawk missiles.  He didn't get the
>>>"How".  Now I think he could learn it if a 1990s person explained them to
>>>him, but he couldn't predict the how.  Same applies here.
>>Yep, but we are talking different HOWs.  You are talking the physical
>>manifistation which you seem to think will change logic.  It will not.  At
>>best is might add states which would greatly improve through put (in orders
>>of magnatude) but the underlying logic must remain if the thing call a
>>computer is to compute!
>No, I'm saying that the underlying logic (boolean algebra, Turing Machines,
>etc.) are part of the implementation, not part of the effect.  They are the
>how, not the what.
>

Not accordining to your definition, 'perform mathamatical and logical
operations'.  That definition is WHAT a computer is.

>
>>Actually this is being done today with some newer algorithims and arcatypes.
>>It is posible to do this but the logic structures behind them are bysanteen
>>in the extreme.  You'd see some of this in 'fuzzy logic' systems and in
>>massively parrell systems but we are only starting to exploit these logic
>>structures.  Again these are only extrapolations of basic logic.  The basic
>>pardium is the same it just includes 'a new implimentation of feedback to
>>shorten the loop'.  
>I've never heard of this defeating the NP-complete problem.  Parallel
>systems don't defeat it, they still require an NP number of iterations,
>just spread over multiple machines.  I don't know about fuzzy logic.
>

Yes and no.  They can very greatly reduce interations by critical path and
sucessive approximations.  It is not a direct math calculation.  It works a
little like graphing does for a human being.  It lets a computer project a
closer answer sooner.  There are many more methods that are far harder to
discribe and matching methods to problems is a science unto itself if it can
be call a science.  I'm a applied scientist.  A lot of these new method are
only a little while out of the research labs.  Some are still in the
research phase.  I have seen enough in the area of modeling of life
(biomophics IIRC) that I was impressed with the 'insight' of the arificial
animals.

Continued in another post.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:46:57 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

>>That's in quotes becauses it the closest analogy I can
>>manage.  I have not work with this structure as I do not work with either
>>massively parralell systems of systems large enough to devide resources to
>>simulate this effectively.  What it comes down to is synergy, the whole is
>>greater that the some of it's parts.  Again this is a macro effect and not a
>>change in basic structure as these system are run on standard computer
>>systems.  As you said it's the HOW not the what.  The what (the computer)
>>has not changed.
>Err.. That's my point... The how can change, and the what remains the same.  
>

I think we may be saying the same thing and this is a matter of somantics.
If the structure of computer remains basicly the same only
faster/smaller/more megfops while better programs improve total preformance
by better use of those resources then what I've been saying about the virus
would be true.  The virus must attack at the micro level to do what canon
says it does UNLESS as I said in my Virus beard post it attacks at the
intermediate level.  At the micro level you have code compatability problems
out the yingyang.  If the level of standardisation I sujested in the
virusbeard post were impimented the virus would have a chance.  The problem
of the low level attack is that the virus in one machine would have not idea
how to do anything in the next machine it had to attack.  This is one reason
all the great virus scares in RL fizzle.  One virus can make the jump to
very different systems but with the common ground of a common language even
if it has to be recompiled it has a foot in the door.  With the help of a
back door like the transponder it can kick proceessor!

>>OF course it is sure.  It's the autonomic nerviuos system!  Do you have to
>>learn to beat your heart or digest your food or jerk your hand away from
>>pain?  I'm not talking about hardwired personalities or anything that high
>>up.  I'm talking the boot strap software that any healthy bady has.  Babies
>>KNOW how to breath, cry, eat, digest, excreet and millions of other
>>operations far to complex for todays most advanved computers to do all
>>because it is hard wired into their basic ROM...DNA!  And guess what, it
>>atomic scale data storage too.  Now that is high tech.!

>Again, you are mixing the how and the what.  Our ability to do all those
>autonomic things is the what.  Whether it acts anything like a computer is
>the how.  We don't know anything at all about the how.  (well, very little
>anyway.)
>

Not true, you were talking about 'boot straping' I was just saying that
humans do 'boot strap' in their own fashion.  The autonomic nervious system
is our boot strap system and our low level operating system.  It fills the
'nitch' of those systems.  If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and
quack like a duck, it probably a duck.

>>>Parallel neural networks is _one_ way of approximating the brain, one that
>>>we don't know is correct.  Maybe a brain has all the same parameters as a
>>>Turing machine-based computer.   Maybe not.  And even if it does, a TL12
>>>computer may still not have them.  The assumption that a high-TL computer
>>>will work like the human brain is not necessarily true.  Maybe it works in
>>>some other fashion.  Or maybe not.
>>What good does this do?  You are supposing here.  We KNOW what a computers
>>function is.  Structure ALWAYS follows function.  Instead of supposing lets
>>try deduction.
>Structure does not always follow function.  As for the supposing, I'm
>trying to show you counter-examples that disprove your deduction.
>

Can you provide any example where form does not follow function that
actually works?  Would you like to hammer nails with a scew driver?  Or
screw in screws with a claw hammer?  Form follows fuction.

>>>>Changes to the macro effect does not nessecitate and micro paradiun change.
>>>And likewise, similarities between macro effects don't necessitate
>>>identical micro paradigms.  That's exactly my point.  Just because it acts
>>>like a TL7 computer, doesn't mean it works like a TL7 computer.
>
>>Exactly wrong.  A computer by your own difinition performs 'mathamatical and
>>logical functions'.  That fixes 'what' it does.  By difinition it is a logic
>>engine.  TL is not relevant.  The mechanics of an OR gate are pretty much
>>fixed in it definition.  You can overcomlicate it with enificency but it's
>>still an OR gate and that is a logical function.  Form follow function.  Can
>>you come up with a micro paradium for an OR gate that is truely basicly
>>diferent and still be an OR gate?  I don't think so.  You are tied forever
>>to logic and math.

>True.  But not necessarily to the logic or math we use now.  Both may
>evolve beyond recognition.  Before Euclid no one had formal geometry.

How?  Is 1 + 1 not going to equal 2?  Is 1 and 1 not going to be 1?

Before Euclid no one build a house with the roof point down either.  He
formalised many things but people still had a good idea of what building
shapes were stable enough to work.

>Before Newton nobody could do Calculus.  Before Lobatchevski everyone knew
>that Euclid was correct.  Before Turing (or Babage, or Pascal.  Take your
>pick) noone knew about Turing machines.  Imagine what we can do in another
>3000 years.
>

We can't project what has yet be concieved.  Trying to say that things WILL
change in ways we can not concieve is in violation of all logic.  We can not
discuss it.  We can not predict it.  So using the posbility as justification
for your point of view is not supportable.  It is equally likely that some
developement will make computers redundant.  They would have NO place in the
traveller universe then.  Or perhaps magic will be discovered and we can all
teleport were ever in the universe we want to go instantly and effortlessly.
It is just as logical to assume this great change will remove the need for
computers.  Traveller is supposed to be fairly hard SF not science fantacy.
Let's say in the realm to logical progress, deductive reasoning, and
reasonable extrapolation for currently available data.  No one can predict
when and if one of these world changes will occure.  Discussing them is
pointless.


>>Form and fuction.  That is what.  The form maybe in software of hardware but
>>form follow function and these two thing define HOW and WHAT.
>Form does not necessarily follow function.  It just tends to happen that
>way.  That's why we have things like the iMac, which looks more like steam
>iron than a computer.  (Yes, I know, I'm being silly.  But I couldn't resist.)
>

If we can have some fun here then what is the point?

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:47:09 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

At 09:40 AM 5/11/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>> 
>> >A uniform system, top to bottom, running on standardized parts and
>> >standardized software, is _just_ the thing those conservative bean-counters
>> >would see as a valuable thing. It would streamline procurement, make support
>> >significantly easier, faster and cheaper, and standardize training issues
>> >across the Imperium.
>> >
>> >Hmmm, sound familiar?
>> >
>> 
>> Yes, it is a version for what I put forth in my Virusbeard declaration.
>> Have A look at it.  I'd love to hear your coments.
>
>I guess I missed it; if it was posted under the title 'A 12 -step
>program..." please send me a copy private or tell where I can get to it,
>as I've been skipping over that particular greasy horse-shaped spot.
>

I think everybody did.  I'll repost it.

>> >Notice the ones to survive Virus in TNE were the hacked up old Free Traders
>> >running a motley assortment of software and hardware, and having to do
most of
>> >the work themselves...
>> >
>> 
>> Manual overrides anyone?
>
>More like:
>
>Captain to new crewmember:
>
>"Well, the damn nic in the aft engineering workstation died a month ago,
>and since it's a 150 year old model, it's been hard to find parts...so
>we just do everything by hand...I know, I know, it's a pain, and someday
>we're gonna have to jump on less than 12 hours notice...I'll get
>_around_ to it, ok? Now go pound on the forward stab'rd ventilation
>controller, the damn relay's stuck closed again, and if that keeps up
>it's gonna be like an icebox in the passenger cabins again."
>

Hey!  How did they get my merchant captain's mustering out ship?!?!
Seriously I got a 5000kt merchant as a mustering out bonus (I forget how
many ship roles it was) but it only had a free trader worth of working
componets.  It had J3 drive but due to drive and computer problems it could
only do a J1 and used 150% of the normal fuel required for a J1.  You do NOT
want to know about the plumbing problems! Do not flush the toilet in the
forward head while the cook is running the dish washer!!!  It was a real
money pit for the first few years but one nice this was that the only
missjump that it's pour old engines could manages was it used the fuel but
did not jump.  We never did figure that one out...but the main food frezzer
got REAL serious cold when that happened.

Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #607
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 11 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 608



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Virusbeard (Unix & C) declaration!
RE: You might not belive this...
Re: You might not belive this...
Re: I'm back from sea
Re: Gene Bank
Insignias and emblems
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: McClellan
Re: Deckplans for modular cutters
Re: Deckplans for modular cutters
Re: You might not belive this... 
Re: I'm back from sea
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics  of Drop Tanks)
re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Drop tank numbers 
re: I'm back from sea
Re Imperial Computing

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:47:20 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Virusbeard (Unix & C) declaration!

Ok folks, This virus thread has given me some cause for though.  I've looked
back though some old cumper stuff and did a little digging pluss a little
head scratching.  I think there is a reasonable way to explain the virus and
canon and make it all work within reasonable bounds and with minimal handwave.

So load your Traveller canons and see what holes you can poke in this.



Point 1) The 3I is big, REAL BIG!

Point 2) The 3I would need to have curtain standards to regulate trade, like
transponders.

Point 3) Because of point 1, point 2, and because ships travel great
distances and may need repair some standarization in computers will be required.

Point 4) Because of the long night and various specific needs all computers
can't use identical parts and sub systems.

Point 5) Softwares writer want as big a market as posible for their products.

Point 6) Customers want access to as many products and choices as posible.

Conclussion 1) From all the points above, a universal language.  Let's call
it IC for Imperial C.  (One reason C is so big today is it's standardization
and cross compilability)

Conclusion 2) From all above, a univeral standard framework for IO to allow
divers to be writen for IO and progams to access this IO.  Let's call it
IDOS.  It is a set of basic IO routines writen in IC.  (Unix has been cross
compiled onto many different computers from PC to mainframes).  The user can
choose a front end like Itouch, Italk, or Iwindows so he does not have to
learn Idos or IC to just run the programs he needs and of course there are
language and console modules for all major races and most minor ones.  The
dolphin console is rated for 100 meters in depth.

Effect 1) All computer makers have to do is provide a compiler for IC to
compile to their processor and system and anybody can recompile any source
code to run on their system.  This lets small companies have a foot into a
BIG market.

Effect 2) All programers can write code that can run (after compiling) on
any machine with a IC compiler.  This let's 'Joe code cruncher' write for a
HUGE market.  All code is sold as copyrighted source code on ROM disks that
has to be compiled to run on the target system.

Effect 3) Consumers get diversity and compatability.

Effect 4) Components manufacturers need only write one IC driver for their
hard ware to sell their product to add to any computer system (with a
standard interface like the USB starting up now or like the centronics
standard for printers or the novel network for about everybody).  So Sence
Tech's sensors are 'plug and play' with Rue computers model 1 FIB and it is
compatable with Blaser-R-US' laser canon and all of them can be integrated
together of cause precision aimed mayhem with 'Joe code crunchers' Gunner
interact-1.  PROFIT FOR EVERBODY! and 'MR. Fixit' on Rigil can tune it up
with his standard dianostics package and Captain Hornblower of the Destroyer
Vigalence can use his querry software to make sure nothing unautherized has
been done like hiding so recreational pharmicuticals in the lasing tube..."I
know you wouldn't do that Gunner so you won't mind if I take remote control
at test fire that laser now would you?'

EFFECT 4) A universal language that the virus can use to take control of any
computer by compiling inself into that system with the manufacture provide
compiler!

How 1)  Some bright puppies in the 3Is electronic warfare section see all
this nice standardisation and get the idea that a 'ship killer virus' would
be a great way to easily put down a rebellion.

Problem 1) Most ship's captains are paranoid and keep their computers lock
down tight against normal com trafic.

Obsevation 1) The transponder has direct access to the computer!  Lets talk
to those bright boys that built that 'unbeatable' transponder.  

What?!  A life form!  How do we that thing to get our virus into the target
computer?  OH! they have preditors on that world also...and they are
naturally aggressive too?...and they are basicly computers too?...well we
might be on to something here.  

What if we lobodomised those preditors leaving them dumb and mean and then
taught them IC?  They would not be able to 'EAT' the mainframes but they
could take them over...OH! you say the could 'EAT' the transponder and use
it for their 'core' to attack other systems untill it broke the security and
could overwrite IDOS and once that happened the operaters would have no way
back into the system...Good Good but wouldn't a complete purge fix
that?...OH!  The transponder of course...and sleeper codes tacked onto any
write accessable executable by the infected compiler...including any
unsecured smart terminal and portables.  

And you say the sleeper code could reassemble itself over time using a
packet sequencing system...but wouldn't that be a much less efficent vector
and make it more likely that the code could be corrupted or mutated?...Oh,
it's only a backup system then, that should be ok.

What if they powered down, killed the transponder, wiped all storage media
except the original ROMs, and then did a complete rebuild?...It would take
HOW LONG!?!?...and they would loose all their records because the
incremental backups would be infected when IDOS was infected sence it
schedules the backups...and only computer-4+s are sufficently experienced to
feel confident to try that proceedure outside a class A or B starport.

Sounds like we have a failsafe system to stop a rebelion or a military coup.
The 3I will be free from the danger of Empirerers of the Flag...Just one
question, How do we stop it?  Oh, a delet code.  Sounds good but what if
this virus mutates in that packet recombination thing so that the code
doesn't work?...I see, end of the universe kind of thing...Not good, that's
a problem.  Oh, the odds of that happening are less than of a particular
star going nova on any particular day.  Well, if we were only to used it as
an absolutely last line of defence to save the 3I from distruction then if
it ran amoke we'd be in no worse shape than if we had lost and maybe knowing
what was going to happen we could recover before our enemy...

Ok, the project is approved.  We'll finance it through the gold plated
freasher fund.  Give it the hightest security rating AND need-to-know.


So, any canon flaws?  What about technical problems?


Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:03:28 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: You might not belive this...

ROFLMHO!!!!!!!
Jesse



> Whattya mean Saturday??? Scooby's on all the time, right there after
> Freakazoid and the Road Rovers, and before Cow and Chik....uhhh, desn't
> _everyone_ get (and _watch_) the Cartoon Network?? ;-)
> 
> Bruce
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 06:00:15 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: You might not belive this...

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> > 'corse I want to go to malaysa
>
> Why?

See a friend..

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:18:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea

In mail you write:

> Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>
>>And, I suspect you missed his point...in the UK cider does NOT typically 
> mean
>>that sweet apple-juice stuff we feed to babies but something considerably
>>harder. It's not until the next morning that you truly regret that it does
>>indeed taste like a soft drink... >:-) Feeling better today, Dom?
>
> Ugh.
>
> After midday, the world got a lot quieter, the sun dimmed and the man
> banging the drum in my head went away...
>
> Suffice it to say, I don't usually drink cider (probably as it seems to be
> an alcohol delivery system which hides the kick in the fruit huice).
>
> Stephen, think >5% alcohol fermented apple juice. Dr Pepper passed me by.

In the US, that's called "hard cider". I've had it, after pressing the
apples myself. Not bad. If you *really* want fun, try applejack. That's
"hard cider" that's been allowed to partially freeze and then had the
ice filtered out. Repeat several times and you've got something as
potent as any brandy. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:07:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gene Bank

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 99-05-11 09:00:05 EDT, you write:
>
> << Come to think of it, why bother carrying all that delicate DNA?
>  Just store all the information on electronic media. Much of the 
>  human genome is not usefully different between individuals, so
>  you might need one master 'electronic genome' plus a few variants
>  of a couple of thousand genes. This would allow you to do some
>  genetic tinkering (if your morality allows it), and start a 
>  population as big as you want. DNA can be generated according to 
>  the electronic plan, and put into stored or artificial cells. >>
>
> Not a bad idea...

Just remember that whether or not a gene is "bad" is a matter of
*local* conditions. You'll need to carry records of *all* known
variations. 

Why? Well consider the classic example. Sickle cell anemia. It's a
recessive. So if you get it from both parents, you die younfg and
rather painfully due to the misshapen red blood cells. 

So why is it *common* in much of Africa? 

Well, if you have it from only *one* parent, your red blood cells are
only a tiny bit different from normal. But that "tiny bit" is enough to
confer near total immunity to malaria!

So in *that* environment, getting it from both parents kills you from
sickle cell. But getting it from *neither* parent kills you from
malaria. Only the 50% who get it from *one* parent are going to survive
to reproduce. 

This sort of thing is why any *intelligent* genetic screening will only
screen to prevent zygotes where "bad" genes are paired up. Ones with a
recessive "bad" gene will be left alone, just in case they wind up
being useful for something. 

This could be used to advantage in a campaign. Say there's something on
a planet that makes being a "carrier" of something nasty like cystic
fibrosis a *good* thing. 

As a matter of fact, I recall reading that CF as a recessive *is* good
for something, but I don't recall what. Probably an "atmospheric taint"
situation. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 99 20:10:12 +0000
From: igor@truserve.com
Subject: Insignias and emblems

I'm busy working on a little Traveller project, and I was wondering if anyone knew the 
canon insignias/emblems of the following races/governments. I realize most of them 
might not have one...but I want to know if any of these do...

Ael Yael, Asym, Controlled, Darrian Confederation, Denaar, Dolphins, Droyne, Dynchia, 
Geonee, Girug'Kagh, Githiaskio, Graytch, Hana Saka, Hhkar, Hiver, Hlanssai, Hresh, 
Irklan, Jgd-ll-jagd, K'Kree, Newts, Nunclees, Providers, Prt', Sabmiqys, Suerrat, 
Tekundu, Trakii, Virushi

Thanks!

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                           |
| Home: igor@truserve.com - www.truserve.com/~igor/ - AOL IM: Iowa Akins |
| Work: andya@cms-ia.com - http://www.cms-ia.com/ - AOL IM: CMS AndyA    |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+      |
|       vi+ da+                                                          |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+        |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                               |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 16:03:50 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
> ...
> >> >Like I say, you can do it.  You just can't do it dirt cheap.
> >> 
> >>   You feel that Cr 10-15 per Dt is a fairly burdensome expense for
> >> transporting L-Hyd from a GG to a large-scale shipping facility up
> >> to a quarter of a year away?
> >
> >It's not zero, is it?  Remember, you're shipping a *LOT* of fuel.  It adds up.
> 
>   No, yes, and yes :)  FWIW, it's at least mildly strange to insist that only
> zero is "dirt-cheap"; thus = free? 

Free *ISN'T* cheap????

Moving 10KT of fuel at 10-15Cr per is 10-15KCr.  It ain't lunch money.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 16:14:14 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: McClellan

<< McClellan wasn't a "bad leader" as such. He was a superb
 >admistrator and extremely charismatic leader. He single handedly
 >rebuilt the Union Army after 1st Bull Run and turned it into the
 >war winning force latter wielded by Sherman, Grant et al.
 >However he was not a field commander and more than that, he knew
 >he was not suitable to command an army in the field. He strongly
 >recommended that Lincoln did not put him in command of the Army
 >of the Potomec. However Lincoln ignored his advice and put him
 >in command anyway. McClellan was a staff officer par excellance
 >who was placed in a command position he knew he could not
 >fufill.
 
 I got the impression that McClellan was assured of his own
 competence. He probably understood military theory and technique
 better than any other Northern commander. After the war, Lee
 considered him his most able opponent.  His great weakness was that he was
 too cautious and not aggressive enough. No matter how careful his
 preparations, they were never quite enough, and Lee was always spoiling his
 careful plans. In his presidential campaign, McClellan thought the war was
 unwinnable. I get the impresseion that he neither blamed himself nor
 thought anyone else could do better. >>

You are both right. McClellan should have been made chief of staff of the US 
army, under an aggresive general like Hancock or Reynolds, or Kearney, or 
Reno early on, and certainly he would have been kept by Grant when he came 
east (Grant would have appreciated McClellan's organizational skills). He was 
charismatic and beloved by the troops. He was however, VERY egocentric. He 
thought he was the next Napoleon, and he snubbed Lincoln and held him in 
contempt. I doubt he would have recommended that he not be given command. I 
also doubt that Lee considered him his best opponent. One of Lee's great 
abilities was his judgement of his opponents character and ability. He knew 
most of his opponents from West Point on and remembered how they performed in 
Mexico. This allowed him to decide he could get away with Jackson's flank 
march at Chancellorsville, and his abandoning of the Richmond defenses after 
the Seven Day's campaign to crush Pope at Second Bull Run. He knew he could 
divide his forces against superior forces (normally a BIG no no) as he knew 
Pope, McClellan and Hooker were slow. This was an ability Marshall shared 
with him (to judge men). Lee would have been a terrifying poker player if he 
gambled...I would think that Lee would have considered Grant his best 
opponent (battlefield grand tactics aside...). Grant was able to 
conceptuallize large campaigns better than anyone else, even Lee. Lee was 
fixated on defending Virginia to the detriment of the rest of the 
Confederacy. While Washington and Richmond made the East politically 
important; the west was where the war was won. Imagine Lee going to Tennessee 
with two Corps from the ANV (with Longstreet guarding Richmond); Grant would 
have had a lot more trouble taking Vicksburg. Grant's Vicksburg campaign was 
brilliant. He marched south of Vicksburg, crossed the Missisisippi, and 
fought and won five battles in rapid succession, against superior numbers (he 
used road nets to gain interior lines and defeat in detail). In the East, 
while Grant's battlefield tactics were unimpressive, his strategy was 
flawless. He rightly recognized after the Wilderness that the ANV was the 
target, not Virginia. When he marched south, rather than retreating back 
north; the Army of the Potomac's morale soared...He knew that if he put 
pressure on Richmond via Petersburg, the ANV would stay put, and allow 
Sherman and Thomas to come up the back door (allowed by the capture of the 
Mississippi and Vicksburg). He knew the Army of the Potomac was a spent 
weapon; it's best men either dead, gone home with expired enlistments, or 
with Sherman (the 20th. Corps fought very well, despite it's miserable record 
as the 11th. Corps in the AOP), or in the valley under Sheridan. Despite the 
Cold Harbor blunder, and Lee's battlefield brilliance, the result was a 
foregone conclusion...It's also interesting that the men of the Army voted 
for Lincoln rather than McClellan in 1864. They wanted to WIN, and despite 
their love for "little Mac", they knew he was no leader...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 16:15:45 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Deckplans for modular cutters

In a message dated 5/11/99 11:20:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi writes:

<< Are there any published deckplans for modular cutters, especially for the
 modules? >>

Supplement 7 has the cutter and a passenger module. DGP's Grand Survey has 
the cutter and a survey module....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 16:16:33 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Deckplans for modular cutters

In a message dated 5/11/99 11:20:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi writes:

<< Are there any published deckplans for modular cutters, especially for the
 modules? >>

Adventure 7, Broadsword has a sideways drawing of a cutter and an APC 
module...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 16:29:38 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: You might not belive this... 

> 
> 
> Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > > 'corse I want to go to malaysa
> >
> > Why?
> 
> See a friend..

Good reason.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:35:29 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: I'm back from sea
...
>That's because too many people wanna throw in their little 'rules
>fixes' to
>make things work the way they *want* to work.  IMNSFBHO, it's
>*more*
>interesting to let the downsides fall where they may and
>see the characters
>try to figure a way around them.

To me that is why drop tanks should never have been introduced
in the first place.  They had a fundamental limitations and then
the start putting in cute little gadgets that mess with them
without considering the consequences.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:43:13 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics  of Drop Tanks)

Tue, 11 May 1999 02:54:56 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>> The point is that I'm not getting ice out of the gas giant.
>> Gas Giants have the same problem in that fuel as at the bottom
>> of this big gravity well (worse than the main world).  It is
>> much easier for a lone ship to go out to the Kuiper belt,
>> snag comets, and push them into orbits that bring them into
>> the inner solar system.  One ship can produce a steady stream
>> of these things.

>Takes longer for the chunks to get insystem though.

Yeah, but you don't have to pay anything while they are in transit.
You need about a year of preparation and then you get a steady
stream.

>  And it takes time to find
>those chunks out there.  They're not exactly an ice cube every 200 meters,
>y'know.

We can spot the larger Kuiper objects from the Earth today and
a 1-G ships (which won't have much trouble catching up to such
object) is pretty cheap relative to a starship and can push
in many times it size.  Remember the alternative is using
a starship to hual the stuff up from the ground.

>> I don't know what you would call "dirt cheap" but it a way to make
>> it cheaper than having to bring fuel up from the main world.
>
>I think Steven would beg to differ that...

Well, while we agree the drop tanks are a bad idea, we certainly
haven't been shy about disagreeing with other things :-).  However,
I will have to wait and see what disagreement he has, if any, on
this.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 16:37:56 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

Charles Prevatte wrote (on reconfigurable computer cores):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sorry, canon problem here.  This technology exists today.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not to the extent I'm envisioning. The core is the computer - an expert
system uses some form of fuzzy logic to see what programs need to
run on what hardware, and through multiple iterations configures and
optimizes the core to run those programs. The mutable core
*becomes* a dedicated system, but a dedicated system that can
reoptimize itself every time you change programs, hardware, or even
operating parameters. A system like this would blow the doors off any
normal kind of general-purpose system, and (depending on how computer
technology develops), it might **be** the best kind of purpose-built system
available.

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The problem is in
order to run the config more than once you need to be able to reset the core
to it's original unconfigured pattern.  The reason is that you create the
configuration by eliminating posible curcuit paths untill you have the
pattern you want. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Don't think "eliminate", think "generate". The matrix is a nearly
undifferentiated medium at start, the configuration equipment creates
3D "circuits" (or the equivalent) in the medium. Resetting it to unconfigured
should be easy, just zap it back to uniform goop. But what if the 
diagnostic gear you're using is infected as well? Sure, your CompTech
kit will tell you you've reset the system, but did you really?

And even if you have reset the core, how do you rebuild the system without
reinfecting it? Since it takes a computer to config the computer, you're still 
at the mercy of the technology.

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Also with this functionality
fighting the virus would be a cake walk.  You set up a recursive self
replicating pattern killing routine that guts the virus as it tries to take
over the system.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You realize that's kind of like trying to kill a DOS boot sector virus by
closing your Windows program?

Virus is running the system. It will accept the calls to run your pattern
killing routine, chuckle at it, and make you think it's working perfectly.

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You even have a readily obtainable master key to use in
targeting this overwatch program.  While the system you perpose would be
easy for the virus to concure in would be easily 'virus proofed' by even a
doofer of a system operater.  Open button super reset!  Then reconfigure in
an easy to deduce virus proof configuration.  It even rids you of the danger
of 'seeds', reconfigure everything at the same time using your factory
provided ROM utility disk that is not writable so is 100% virus proof!  
"Viruses, we don't worry about eenniee siiiinkiingg viirruuussssseeesssss!"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
There is no "factory setting", not in the usual sense. The configuration
utility has to run as a semi-intelligent process, identifying the computer's
environment and creating a custom build to best support that environment.
The configuration tool will probably see it's reconfiguration attempts
met by and countered by the Virus during the diagnostic phase (when
information is being sent to the configuration equipment). Result: your
system comes up "Configuration Complete", Virus lays an egg in your
configuration tool.

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Also, reconfigurable systems like these can not be at the cutting edge as
far as speed and efficency.  They will be a good bit slower with less
features and fewer bells and whisles.  They will be much larger than a
compatable purpose built system and depending on market forces a little or a
lot more expensive depening on production quantities.  As the old saying
goes, Jack off all trades master of none.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There goes Charles with his GTL 7 expertise again. New technology,
remember?

You never wondered how the same Model/3 computer could support
sensors, maneuver, life support, weaponry and jump plotting in a
Subsidized Liner and a Patrol Cruiser, with no change in size or cost?

Make a billion Model/3 computers. Sell them to every manufacturer who
needs that kind of power. Your economies of scale will blow away the
guy who can make a computer that could only work in a type T Patrol
Cruiser - where he saved 20% by cutting off flexibility, you saved 50%
by building so many of them. His market was one class of ship, built
at one shipyard during one building run. Your market is anything with a
3dTn computer bay that needs to go jump-3.

The computers I'm envisioning here *will* be purpose built - that's what
the configuration/optimization capability is for. Furthermore, when you add
another laser to your turret, the computer will (automatically?) *reconfigure*
itself so it's *still* a "purpose built" system for your ship.

It's not a jack of all trades, master of none - it's a master of whatever trade
you wanted it to do last time you configured it, and better suited to that
trade than anything configged in a factory could ever be.

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Military front line ships would have some of these reconfigurable units or a
good stock of spare specialty units to replace lost specialised units AFTER
the battle and multiply redundant armored and hardened dedicated SOTA
primary systems (black boxes).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If these mutable cores were produced in sufficient quantities, you'll see
them in everything from Starships to Air Rafts to Fusion Guns - just
smaller and smaller. Sure, maybe the core config on your electric
toothbrush is set at the factory and never intended to change - it'll still
use the mutable core material if it's the most readily available and 
cheapest computer component. It probably won't have a diagnostics 
access jack - it's too cheap to fix - but your television set will. By that
point, *you* might...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 16:41:28 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop tank numbers 

> Keven R. Pittsinger writes:
> 
> >>  OK. Do you have any reason to believe that this makes sense in equivalent
> >>RW experience, or should in the OTU? Or IYTU?
> > 
> >Beats me, but then, like I say, I've not seen anything to contradict it in the 
> >rules.  They flat out say the going rate is 1KCr/ton (CT/HG, dammit, *NOT* 
> >somebody's homegrown system)
>   
> >>  Correct; IIRC the assumption of premium rates is a proviso that I've
> >>included in the discussion. To attempt to discuss the economics of the
> >>Traveller universe (which is, at least allegedly, fictional) in a serious
> >>fashion without that consideration seems pointless.
> > 
> >House rule, eh?
> 
> Keven, if Traveller had had a rule for calculating the gravity of a world
> and one day you plugged in the numbers for Earth and came up with a figure
> of 0.1G, would you consider anyone who insisted that Earth's gravity was
> 1G to be playing by house rules?

I'd recheck my numbers.
  
> Well, the flat-rate-for-all-jumps-regardless-of-distance rule is the
> economic equivalent of a gravitational field that grows less the closer
> you are to a planet. If you insist on sticking to that, then by all means
> do so, but let's agree to disagree, OK?

I base my 1KCr/ton/jump figure on the rules, which I *interpret* as, long haul freighting is subsidised by *somebody*.  Don't know *who*, don't *CARE* who.  Why should I worry about how much some megacorp is paying to ship stuff 3 parsecs at a shot when I'm busy trying to sell what I have in front of me *right now* and trying to make a quick credit on it?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 16:46:10 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: I'm back from sea

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In the US, that's called "hard cider". I've had it, after pressing the
apples myself. Not bad. If you *really* want fun, try applejack. That's
"hard cider" that's been allowed to partially freeze and then had the
ice filtered out. Repeat several times and you've got something as
potent as any brandy. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
We made an interesting drink some years back at a gaming party.

We were mulling cider - the American apple-juice kind, not the British
alcohol-kind. We had it in a big crockpot, with mulling spice and
lots of cinnamon, it smelled wonderful.

Someone had a minor emergency and we all scooted off to help - forgetting
about the crockpot. Luckily we got back before it burned, but the cider
had rendered down to about an eighth or less of it's original volume. 
It was boiling hot, thick like oil - a drop hit the cool tabletop and 
instantly congealed.

Someone had several bottles of ice-cold applejack on hand, I know not
from where. We spent several hours half-filling mugs with the hot cinnamon
apple oil we'd created, then adding just enough applejack so it was (barely) cool enough to drink.

We called the drinks Hot Cinnamon Jacks. I don't have a clear recollection
of how the game went, though...the rest of the evening is kinda fuzzy. :)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:57:31 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Imperial Computing

>Contrary to someone else's comment regarding Vilani conservatism, an all MS
>solution is _just_ what they would do: "No one ever got fired for specifying
>IBM".
>
>A uniform system, top to bottom, running on standardized parts and
>standardized software, is _just_ the thing those conservative bean-counters
>would see as a valuable thing. It would streamline procurement, make support
>significantly easier, faster and cheaper, and standardize training issues
>across the Imperium.
>
>Hmmm, sound familiar?

Actually, I suspect (for simple reasons of TL limits and the oversized
computers), that it is more a case of all major computers running some
"Imperial Virtual Machine", and programs being in compressed code for
compilation when not set for the IVM...

BTW, I'm BACK!!!!

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #608
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 11 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 609



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Stupid GM Tricks
Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...)
re: Drop Tank Numbers
Re: McClellan
Re: Insignia and Emblems
Re: McClellan
RE: Gene Bank
Re: Post TNE ship design rules
G:T Starships - Self Contained?
Re: G:T Starships - Self Contained?
Re: one minor comment on Virus
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
re: Virusbeard (Unix & C) declaration!
Re: I'm back from sea
Re: McClellan
re: I'm back from sea
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
OT: :Gamma World
Traveller CD project
Re: OT: :Gamma World

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:18:55 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid GM Tricks

I was playing AD&D once and entered this room and the GM announced :
There is something that looks like a Blink Dog in the room.

I thought, oh hey, thats cool, and was about to go in.

The GM finished by saying, "The Blink Dog is on the ceiling."

With an "oh shit!" (thinking this was NOT a bl;ink dog but something far
more nasty, our party made a run for it.  We got several rooms away
before the GM said, "oh silly me, that was a mistake.  He wasn't on the
ceiling"

Argh....
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:12:31 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...)

Tue, 11 May 1999 12:21:16 -0400, Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>

>On Sun, 9 May 1999,
>David Summers wrote:

>"Much easier" is debatable. The Kuiper belt is a looong way out:

Buy contemporary standards.  But remember that even a 1G ship
has _enormous_ acceleration by contemporary standards.

>It's much too far for interstellar merchants who have to meet the
>next mortgage payment.

That is why the merchant wouldn't go out there.  You get
some small, cheap interplanetary ship with one or two people
that wanders around out there, put thruster packs on them,
and tosses them in.

>Most objects you can find are smaller than
>golf balls:

I follow this a bit and I haven't seen that claim at all.

> those that are big enough to be worth sending into
>the inner system are rarities.

Neither is this.  The ones that are huge enough for us to detect
today are probably pretty rare (Pluto and Charon may be Kuiper objects).
If they have a normal distribution in sizes and based on
some recent estimates of the amount of mass out there, they won't
be that hard to find.  (Note: there have been estimates that
all the Earth's oceans came from such objects hitting the Earth.
This isn't popular these days, but one of the big problems is
mostly that Jupiter scavenges them  out before they hit the earth).

>Maybe you can kick a skyscraper
>sized object hard enough that it will fall into the inner system
>in a couple of decades instead of the couple of millennia it
>would ordinarily take, but things the size of Mt. Whatever are
>not that much easier to push around.

Remember, if you can give it a small fraction of a G of accelation
for a week, you can make a major change to its orbit and thrust
is pretty cheap in Traveller.  In GT, just one thruster module
will give a 1000 ton chunck of ice (over 100 dtons of fule)
0.04 G of accel.  That can
give it a 10 km/s change in velocity (more than its orbital
velocity) in less than a day.  (which is way overkill)

>It may take weeks to make a
>"strike" and it's cold and dark and lonely enough out there that
>insanity is a major occupational hazard.  (A well-adjusted kuiper
>belter is already insane by most standards anyway)

We can see the large ones from the Earth.  If you bop up 8
TL's and note that travel times at 1 G are quite modest, you
can see how it works.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:48:47 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: re: Drop Tank Numbers

Tue, 11 May 1999 09:09:35 -0400, Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>

>David P. Summers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>They are, in a way. A 200dtn free trader minus 20dtns of internal fuel
>>tanks only has to buy 180dtns of hull - that saves about 2MCr. Of course,
>>those 20dTns of tanks would be much more durable and dependable if
>>they were part of the hull instead of some welded-on gas cans.

>Actually, they won't be welded on.  And there really isn't any
>reason they should be less dependable.  We are talking "fuel
>tanks" here.  Something we have mastered at TL 7.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Starship Hull: a reinforced container capable of resisting micrometeorites,
>jump-space transition, radiation, acceleration stress and other damage for
>decades if not centuries.
>
>Drop Tank: a disposable pod capable of carrying fuel.
>
>Sounds to me like there's a bit of difference in the design specs there. :-)

Well, reason you don't design them to stand up to those
stresses is that you don't have to (actually, it is easy enough to design
it to stand up to micrometeorites that you would go ahead and do it).
Therefore, the lack of those features doesn't make them undependable and
undurable.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:40:08 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McClellan

>In the East,
>while Grant's battlefield tactics were unimpressive, his strategy was
>flawless.

My take is that Grant wasn't the brilliant tactictian or strategist
that Lee was, he was, however, very competant and was able to
recognize that the North had an clear advantage almost every
area and that any competant plan, resolutely carried out, would
carry the day.  So that is what he did.  He attacked Lee with
solid tatics and eventually Lee just ran out of tricks.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:52:56 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Insignia and Emblems

> Date: Tue, 11 May 99 20:10:12 +0000
> From: igor@truserve.com
> Subject: Insignias and emblems
> 
> I'm busy working on a little Traveller project, and I was wondering if
anyone knew the 
> canon insignias/emblems of the following races/governments. I realize
most of them 
> might not have one...but I want to know if any of these do...
> 
> Sabmiqys

It's a stylized representation of a clawed hand, covered in circuitry...

"Resistance is Futile."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:00:44 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: McClellan

In a message dated 5/11/99 5:43:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
summers@alum.mit.edu writes:

<< 
 area and that any competant plan, resolutely carried out, would
 carry the day.  So that is what he did.  He attacked Lee with >>

In other words, Grant was the 'fighting general' that Lincoln needed...

BobS....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:11:13 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Gene Bank

Leonard Erickson writes:
"Just remember that whether or not a gene is "bad" is a 
matter of *local* conditions. You'll need to carry records 
of *all* known variations."

	Not necessarily *all* known variations. First, some
	genes may be bad under all conditions. By TL 15 we
	may be able to at least make intelligent guesses
	about some of these. Second, some variations have
	demonstrably no effect whatsoever on the function
	of the protein coded. Third, any natural population
	of humans sent to a new home will be missing some
	variations. And how about the trillions of variants
	that are unknown but could be produced by genetic
	manipulations?

<snipped>
"Well, if you have it from only *one* parent, your red blood 
cells are only a tiny bit different from normal. But that 
"tiny bit" is enough to confer near total immunity to malaria!"

	That "tiny bit" is enough to make you chronically ill,
	but much healthier than you would be if you caught
	malaria.

"So in *that* environment, getting it from both parents kills 
you from sickle cell. But getting it from *neither* parent 
kills you from malaria. Only the 50% who get it from *one* 
are going to survive to reproduce."

	50% if both parents have one copy of the sickle-cell 
	gene, the highest frequencies in Africa are about 33%.
	That is, 33% of the genes are sickle-cell ones, 44%
	of the people have one sickle-cell gene, 45% have 2
	'normal' genes, and 11% have 2 sickle-cell genes (and
	get sickle-cell anemia).

"This sort of thing is why any *intelligent* genetic screening 
will only screen to prevent zygotes where "bad" genes are 
paired up. Ones with a recessive "bad" gene will be left alone, 
just in case they wind up being useful for something."

	Two points: First, all those variants that might be useful
	under some conditions might also be bad under other 
	conditions. How many bad genes do you want to put up
	with on the chance that some of them might eventually
	turn out to be useful? Second, many genes that were
	bad/useful are already less relevant in our industrialized
	society. If we ever eliminate malaria (not likely for
	a while, but malaria will probably not be a problem
	in space), do we really want to keep people less healthy/
	drug dependant when we have the means to avoid it? If
	people are truely frightened of the loss of genetic 
	variance, keep some sickle-cell genes in storage just in 
	case we need them. Maybe intentionally increase the
	mutation rate in the population, or do it by computer
	if your genomes are on file.

"This could be used to advantage in a campaign. Say there's 
something on a planet that makes being a "carrier" of 
something nasty like cystic fibrosis a *good* thing."

	I'm all for plot hooks! Settlers on a low-tech planet
	seem to be dying in droves, except the children of a
	family that carries CF. Now, I would guess that most
	healthy people would just leave. The remainder would
	have a high frequency of the CF gene (is there one?) 
	and a high rate of CF cases. If the TL is high enough
	to treat CF but not high enough to eliminate the
	problem that makes the CF gene an 'advantage,' then
	this might fly.

"As a matter of fact, I recall reading that CF as a recessive 
*is* good for something, but I don't recall what. Probably an 
"atmospheric taint" situation."

	It may well be, but being 'good' in an evolutionary
	sense does not make it fun to have for an individual.
	I do not support eugenics, but I have no problem with
	loosing demonstrably bad genes with no forseeable 
	utility. In any event, any human population will be
	constantly generating new genetic variance (on average,
	each human born has at least one new mutation that was
	not inherited from the parents). There are already over
	5 billion of us. That's a lot of variance in just this 
	generation.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:06:32 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Post TNE ship design rules

- ----------
> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Post TNE ship design rules
> Date: Tuesday, 11 May, 1999 1:19 PM
> 
>  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >For GURPS, I think something like GT:Shipyard is going to provide
> >a full range of Traveller specific components.
> 
> It does. But you'll need MacOS to run it.
> 
> http://www.bits.org.uk/ and go to products to download the demo
> 
> Dom
> 
> ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
> "In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
> Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
>   see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
>                   Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
> Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 
>

There's also a book entitled GURPS Traveller: Starships in progress; I
think that's probably what Phil had in mind.  It will include expanded
options for ship design, including new modules and new hull configurations,
but mostly cover lots of "Adventure" class ships, with deckplans (all this
from Chris Thrash's solicitation for contributions a week or two ago).

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:32:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: G:T Starships - Self Contained?

On Tue, 11 May 1999, Thomas Schoene wrote:

> There's also a book entitled GURPS Traveller: Starships in progress;

Pardon me if anyone has asked this already (I tend to skip over most of
the starship design number crunching threads), but does anyone know if G:T
Starships is going to be self-contained or not? Will it stand alone as a
product without GURPS: Vehicles, GURPS: Ultratech, etc etc etc etc ?

 -Brannon (who really enjoyed the "idiot-simple" Starship design in
Classic Traveller's Book 2)

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:40:17 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: G:T Starships - Self Contained?

At 03:32 PM 5/11/99 -0700, you wrote:
>On Tue, 11 May 1999, Thomas Schoene wrote:
>
>> There's also a book entitled GURPS Traveller: Starships in progress;
>
>Pardon me if anyone has asked this already (I tend to skip over most of
>the starship design number crunching threads), but does anyone know if G:T
>Starships is going to be self-contained or not? Will it stand alone as a
>product without GURPS: Vehicles, GURPS: Ultratech, etc etc etc etc ?

AFAIK, it will be stand alone.  GURPS Vehicles is needed to design custom
components, but just GT:S (or for that matter GT) is enough for ones using
standard modules. In T4 terms, think GT=QSDS, GT:S=SSDS, G:VE=FF&S.
(Except that ST:S won't be broken at publicaion....)

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:46:57 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

At 07:17 PM 5/11/99 +0100, you wrote:
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>
><snip>
>
>>>Notice the ones to survive Virus in TNE were the hacked up old Free
>Traders
>>>running a motley assortment of software and hardware, and having to
>do most of
>>>the work themselves...
>>>
>>
>>Manual overrides anyone?
>>
>>Charles L.
>
>
>Yeah...but there are some computer controlled shipboard functions that
>just *can't* be manually overridden (except by just shutting the
>offending system down <g>)
>eg Power Plant, Jump Drive etc.  These systems require input or
>adjustments in such a rapid timeframe that it would be impossible to
>manually control them
>
>IMTU, TMMV
>
>regards
>
>Matt
>

Then cobble togethere some good old fashioned analog control systems.  Let
the virus try to munch on those!  Or a mechanical control system like the
old Barber-Coldmans.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:47:07 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 11:58 AM 5/11/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> In a message dated 99-05-11 06:21:12 EDT, you write:
>>
>> << Not any more, unless there's some on the old cassette tapes in the 
>> garage. 
>>  >>
>>
>> I assume that you don't mean the data tapes that people use now en days?
>> -Stephen
>
><curmudgeon mode on>
>In the old days, youngster, the only storage for personal computers was
>paper tape (which required expensive surpulus paper tape readers and
>punches) or cassette tape (as in standard household tape recorders). 
>
>300 baud was about standard. About the time floppies started to become
>somewhat affordable (I was glad to pay *only* $150 for a drive!) data
>rates for tapes got somewhat better. Say 1500 baud. 
>
>I have a *lot* of old cassette tapes in a box in the bedroom, as well
>as a cassette recorder that's "optimized" for computer use. 
>
>You young whiuppersnappers just have no appreciation for things...
>
><curmudgeon mode off>
>

Yep, them thar were 'd days...

By the way I repaired a paper tape system only 5 years ago or so.  Talk
about latency!

>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:41:48 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
><curmudgeon mode on>
>In the old days, youngster, the only storage for personal computers was
>paper tape (which required expensive surpulus paper tape readers and
>punches) or cassette tape (as in standard household tape recorders).

Ahh. A Sinclair ZX81 with 1k of RAM was a powerful machine back then. Z80
processor running BASIC as the OS, with the lucky people having a 16k RAM
pack or even an external cassette recorder (optional) which meant you could
keep programs after you switched off. I remember loading 15 min programs
which failed at the end...

The Video Genie (TRS80 clone) with 32kB, and a built in cassette and sound!
was next, then there was a 6 year break before my Atari 1040 STFM with a
built in Disk arrived, followed 3 years later by a 1040 STe with 4Mb RAM
and two disk drives. 2 years after that it was an Apple PowerBook 190 with
20Mb RAM and a 500Mb HDD, followed 18 months later by a PowerMac 6400 (56Mb
RAM and 2.3GB). My updates seem to be getting faster, more expensive but
really don't seem to do a lot more. The TRS80/ZX81 where much of a
muchness, but the Mac's (and the NT4 box I use at work) don't have a
significant edge on my ST - speed and resolution mainly - the GUI is just a
bit more refined.

Funny thing is, I kind of miss the days when I needed to teach myself BASIC
to get the computer to do anything...

Dom (rambling, sorry)

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:47:14 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Virusbeard (Unix & C) declaration!

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Ok folks, This virus thread has given me some cause for though.  I've looked
>back though some old cumper stuff and did a little digging pluss a little
>head scratching.  I think there is a reasonable way to explain the virus and
>canon and make it all work within reasonable bounds and with minimal handwave.
>
>So load your Traveller canons and see what holes you can poke in this.

Hmm - just to add something to the pot - MT describes high TL computers as
being near AI's through the use of synaptic processors, which aren't
limited to YES/NO. Couple this to a possibly fluid core (say self
aligning/evolving crystals with a set back up 'fibre' system for EMP
hardened units) and Virus could be more posible. In addition, it's canon
that Traveller ships had multiple high powered computers for different
roles which all talked to each other behind the scenes...

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:48:54 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>In the US, that's called "hard cider". I've had it, after pressing the
>apples myself. Not bad. If you *really* want fun, try applejack. That's
>"hard cider" that's been allowed to partially freeze and then had the
>ice filtered out. Repeat several times and you've got something as
>potent as any brandy.

Ouch...

In the UK, apple juice is apple juice, fermented apple juice is cider, and
then you can get Apple brandy...

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:51:57 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: McClellan

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>foregone conclusion...It's also interesting that the men of the Army voted
>for Lincoln rather than McClellan in 1864. They wanted to WIN, and despite
>their love for "little Mac", they knew he was no leader...

You're giving me urges to dig out GDW's 'A House Divided' again.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:55:00 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: I'm back from sea

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> writes:

>We called the drinks Hot Cinnamon Jacks. I don't have a clear recollection
>of how the game went, though...the rest of the evening is kinda fuzzy. :)

Ouch, bet the hangover was fun....

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:19:22 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

> Funny thing is, I kind of miss the days when I needed to teach myself BASIC
> to get the computer to do anything...
> 
> Dom (rambling, sorry)
> 


I still have BASIC on my Dell Pentium.  I wrote a MegaTraveller GM's aid
on it.  Plus some Gamma world stuff.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 16:18:21 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> ><curmudgeon mode on>
> >In the old days, youngster, the only storage for personal computers was
> >paper tape (which required expensive surpulus paper tape readers and
> >punches) or cassette tape (as in standard household tape recorders).
> 
> Ahh. A Sinclair ZX81 with 1k of RAM was a powerful machine back then. Z80
> processor running BASIC as the OS, with the lucky people having a 16k RAM
> pack or even an external cassette recorder (optional) which meant you could
> keep programs after you switched off. I remember loading 15 min programs
> which failed at the end...

ahhh that takes me back...my first one was an Apple II+ with 64 _whole_
k of memory!!! Woo Hoo!! _two_ floppy disk drives, and a Videx 80 column
card.

That saw me through until I got my trusty ol' Mac Plus in about '88 or
so.

I still remember the first time I played with one, it was at the Boston
Computer Society Museum. Just blew my mind. I remember going back home
and trying to write a MacPaint clone for the Apple II...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 16:27:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: OT: :Gamma World

On Tue, 11 May 1999, Jory Earl wrote:

> I still have BASIC on my Dell Pentium.  I wrote a MegaTraveller GM's aid
> on it.  Plus some Gamma world stuff.

FYI: I spoke to Jim Butler (TSR) about a month ago, and he indicated that
there is an "Alternity: Gamma World" book coming soon. If it's a hit,
they'll consider doing more work in that setting.

Brannon

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 20:35:23 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Traveller CD project

	Since there has been some talk about a Traveller CD and some 
inquiries, I figured it might be time for a minor update.

	A far amount, but not all of the scanning has been done. Some of the 
proofing has been done but still has a long way to go.

	Regretfully, this has been taking a lot longer than expected (Real 
life commitments have been taking up a lot of the project members time, 
including my own).


Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 20:58:46 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: OT: :Gamma World

"Brannon W. Boren" wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 11 May 1999, Jory Earl wrote:
> 
> > I still have BASIC on my Dell Pentium.  I wrote a MegaTraveller GM's aid
> > on it.  Plus some Gamma world stuff.
> 
> FYI: I spoke to Jim Butler (TSR) about a month ago, and he indicated that
> there is an "Alternity: Gamma World" book coming soon. If it's a hit,
> they'll consider doing more work in that setting.

I wonder what the legal logistics would be for them to do a Traveller
book for Alternity?  Or are we talking sacriledge?  :)
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #609
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 12 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 610



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller CD project
Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...) 
Re: Economics 
RE: OT: :Gamma World
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: You might not belive this... 
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel... 
Re: Economics of Service Stations 
Re: G:T Starships - Self Contained?
Re: OT: :Gamma World
Questions
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics  of Drop Tanks)
Re: Post TNE ship design rules
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel... 
More Questions
Re: OT: :Gamma World
Re: OT: :Gamma World
Re:   Re: McClellan
RE: OT: :Gamma World
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel... 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:06:56 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD project

Kagehira@aol.com wrote:
> 
>         Since there has been some talk about a Traveller CD and some
> inquiries, I figured it might be time for a minor update.
> 
>         A far amount, but not all of the scanning has been done. Some of the
> proofing has been done but still has a long way to go.
> 
>         Regretfully, this has been taking a lot longer than expected (Real
> life commitments have been taking up a lot of the project members time,
> including my own).
> 
> Bryan

Understandable.  Do you have a ball-park estimate as to when this will
be available?  Aside from the new Star Wars movie, nothing else has more
of my interest.  :)  Also, what will the pricing be like?

Thanks!

- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:13:37 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...) 

> Tue, 11 May 1999 12:21:16 -0400, Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
> 
> >On Sun, 9 May 1999,
> >David Summers wrote:
> 
> >"Much easier" is debatable. The Kuiper belt is a looong way out:
> 
> Buy contemporary standards.  But remember that even a 1G ship
> has _enormous_ acceleration by contemporary standards.

Kuiper Belts are a *LONG* way out.  We're talking about *billions* of klicks 
here.
 
> >It's much too far for interstellar merchants who have to meet the
> >next mortgage payment.
> 
> That is why the merchant wouldn't go out there.  You get
> some small, cheap interplanetary ship with one or two people
> that wanders around out there, put thruster packs on them,
> and tosses them in.

I'd see the Kuiper Belts and Oort Clouds as places for experimental physics 
labs to hang out in.  A nice *FLAT* space to do experiments with FTL physics, 
though a *LONG* way to go if you need a couple pounds of oxy...
 
> >Maybe you can kick a skyscraper
> >sized object hard enough that it will fall into the inner system
> >in a couple of decades instead of the couple of millennia it
> >would ordinarily take, but things the size of Mt. Whatever are
> >not that much easier to push around.
> 
> Remember, if you can give it a small fraction of a G of accelation
> for a week, you can make a major change to its orbit and thrust
> is pretty cheap in Traveller.  In GT, just one thruster module
> will give a 1000 ton chunck of ice (over 100 dtons of fule)
> 0.04 G of accel.  That can
> give it a 10 km/s change in velocity (more than its orbital
> velocity) in less than a day.  (which is way overkill)

10 klicks/sec for a couple billion klicks is still a *LONG* flight.
 
> >It may take weeks to make a
> >"strike" and it's cold and dark and lonely enough out there that
> >insanity is a major occupational hazard.  (A well-adjusted kuiper
> >belter is already insane by most standards anyway)
> 
> We can see the large ones from the Earth.  If you bop up 8
> TL's and note that travel times at 1 G are quite modest, you
> can see how it works.

According to the chart in 'The Traveller Book', which has been fairly accurate 
as far as I can tell, going a billion klicks at a constant 1G is about a 7.3 
day trip.  If you're talking delta vees of 10 klick/secs, pack a lunch, it's a 
long walk.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:23:00 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics 

> 
> >From: "A. O'Mary" <omary@my-dejanews.com>
> >Subject: Economics
> >
> >Does anyone have suggestions about how to incorporate realistic pricing
> into the Traveller universe (CT,MT)? Book prices show an item and the TL at
> which it becomes available, but I've never found a formula for showing the
> effect of increasing TL's on the price, size, and weight. Striker had some
> very nice tables that showed size/wt decreases for a given item as TL
> increased, and I'm not enough of a economist to figure the various pricing
> variables for efficiency of manufacture/ distance from world of
> manufacture, TL difference, taxes and tariffs, etc. I know the trade rules
> cover a little of that for bulk cargoes, but how do some of you handle the
> price of everyday items IYTU? By standard book price? Handwave? WAG?
> >ALO
> 
> This is semi-random thoughts.
> 
> As far as I remember the Striker table was about local currencies and their
> value vs the Imperial Credit. This makes hi-tech goods more expensive than
> their lower-tech functional equivalents - a TL12 jump-3 freighter will cost
> less in Imperial Credits than it's TL15 equivalent. This may make it more
> cost-effective for lugging cargo than it's TL15 equivalent, even if it's
> TL15 equivalent has a bigger cargo bay from it's more efficient power plant
> etc. This will mean that hi tech worlds concentrate on building hi-tech
> things, and import low-tech goods from those worlds, paying with smaller
> amounts of neat TL15 toys and guns.

I think that chart was also printed in the first BOJ.  And yeah, I *use* that 
chart for currency conversions IMTU; lot of the space that my characters have 
to go through aren't Imperial-controlled.

> In short, if you take the 'book' costs of goods, figure out their
> sourceworld, multiply their cost by the exchange rates for their
> sourceworld's credits, and then add 1% of value per parsec from the
> destination you should be close enough.
> 
> It's complex but doable.

Sounds workable...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:45:35 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: OT: :Gamma World

To quote a famous Pace Picante Sauce commercial here in the States:

"Get a rope."

Jesse
:)



> I wonder what the legal logistics would be for them to do a Traveller
> book for Alternity?  Or are we talking sacriledge?  :)
> -- 
> ___________________________________________________________
>  J-Man
>  ICQ# 2843475
>  Email : j-man@iname.com
>  Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
> ___________________________________________________________
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:26:45 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >   You feel that Cr 10-15 per Dt is a fairly burdensome expense for
> > transporting L-Hyd from a GG to a large-scale shipping facility up
> > to a quarter of a year away?
> 
> It's not zero, is it?  Remember, you're shipping a *LOT* of fuel.  It adds up.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> That fuel isn't being dumped down a hole - it's being sold, either to other
> shippers or to other departments of your megacorp*. As long as price per
> ton of fuel is higher than cost per ton, you've got a profit-making enterprise.
> Those profits will tend to increase (to the limits of demand) as you spend
> more on costs (increasing amounts of fuel delivered).

True enough, but expenses tend to eat into profits.  The more your goods cost 
you to aquire, the narrower your profit margin is.  Now, I'm not an economic 
genius; AAMOF, I consider economics to be an arcane art just this side of 
witchcraft (no offense to any Wiccans here).  I don't understand it.  Period.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:28:51 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: You might not belive this... 

> Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> > 
> > > In a message dated 99-05-11 03:01:16 EDT, you write:
> > >
> > > << Ruh rho, Shaggy.
> > >
> > >  Frankie
> > >   >>
> > >
> > > I'm missing something here.  What does a greek letter, a dogs (?) name and
> > > something else have to with each other?
> > 
> > I *think* you missed Saturday morning cartoons.  Scooby Doo's fave line was
> > 'Rhu rho...'  Talked pretty good, for a dog...
> 
> Whattya mean Saturday??? Scooby's on all the time, right there after
> Freakazoid and the Road Rovers, and before Cow and Chik....uhhh, desn't
> _everyone_ get (and _watch_) the Cartoon Network?? ;-)

I'm too busy watching hockey & TvLand.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:30:12 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel... 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics/
> ... 
> >> I don't know what you would call "dirt cheap" but it a way to make
> >> it cheaper than having to bring fuel up from the main world.
> >
> >I think Steven would beg to differ that...
> 
>   I happen to suspect that the cheapest thing would be to get water from a
> worlds surface - fewer losses to skimming accidents over the years. However,
> I assumed that this was not an option for arguments sake - it's just too 
> easy, and not universally available. GG skimming probably (?) wins overall.

Which is why I looked at GG's.  Seems *most* systems have some GG's around.

Course, a *REAL* bitch would be a totally dry system; no water & no GG's.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:38:01 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 

> >Considering I don't *have* an economic model.  I simply maintained that a 400
> >ton ship *and* a fueling station costs more than a 400 ton ship by itself.
> >You keep trying to convince me differently.
> 
> The idea is that while the start-up cost for a single 400-ton ship may be
> less than a 400-ton ship plus fueling station and its support craft, the
> long-term economic benefits of the ship plus fueling station eventually pay
> for this, and end up in larger profits for those involved.

Eventually.  If you assume the standard 40 year payoff, you get to wait for 40 
years for your big cashflow rakeins.  Til then, you gotta cover the nut.
 
> Remember, you do not need a fueling station for each and every drop-tank
> ship built, just as you do not need one gas station for each and every car
> on the road. A fueling station can serve the needs of many ships for a long
> period of time (remeber, we are talking about vehicles and facilities that
> have operational lifespans of several decades).

I never said you did.  AAMOF, I noted in my 'Potato' design that it would 
handle 300 KT of shipping a day to 1 parsec of range, less, of course, if the 
destination is further out.  But even after serving 10,000 ships, the prorated 
cost of the station is not zero with respect to a single ship.

> >I just have problems with a core with tankage two orders of magnitude larger
> >than the core.
> 
> So what logic prevents a core with big, free-standing tanks of fuel (not
> attached to the station) to be accessed and used at need? This would be the
> preferred method to stowage, I would think. Why must the spare drop-tankage
> be stored inside the main hull of the station?

How can you control all those tanks without some sort of computer control?
  
> >> >No, I'm not.  You're saying you can have a small core with lots of rock
> >> tanks around it and stay legal even though you violate the 2% bridge rule.
> >> I'm saying you can't, not as a permenant structure.  I specified a moveable
> >> station, designed as a nonstarship, that would ferry fuel out to the jump
> >> point in reasonable time frames.  I even based it on your hollow rocks.  I
> >> just didn't look for any quasilegal loopholes to jam them through.
> 
> You simply do not need this movable station any more than you need mobile
> gas stations in the real world. The ships it is servicing can move
> themselves, thus they can travel to and from the station. The only movable
> things you need are the tugs to transport the unrefined fuel to the station
> for processing and storage.

I told you.  Ease of filling.  I haven't done any numbers on seperate fuel 
rocks & tugs as opposed to a single station/tender.
 
> I am beginning to think lot of this argument is caused by rules artifacts
> in High Guard and the abuses you can make with them by making assumptions
> and extrapolations. Using different rules sets, you will likely get
> different results (as was found with PAs and Meson guns in GURPS Traveller).

Well, if you follow the HG ruleset, it flat out states that all-drop jump 
tankage is illegal.  Not to mention a *RILLY* bad idea in frontier areas.
 
And on the latter part, Steven and I *both* agree, but for different reasons.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:46:05 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: G:T Starships - Self Contained?

Tue, 11 May 1999 15:32:45 -0700 (PDT), "Brannon W. Boren"
<brannonb@animal.blarg.net>

>> There's also a book entitled GURPS Traveller: Starships in progress;
>
>Pardon me if anyone has asked this already (I tend to skip over most of
>the starship design number crunching threads), but does anyone know if G:T
>Starships is going to be self-contained or not? Will it stand alone as a
>product without GURPS: Vehicles, GURPS: Ultratech, etc etc etc etc ?
>
> -Brannon (who really enjoyed the "idiot-simple" Starship design in
>Classic Traveller's Book 2)

It looks like it will be usign the modular system in GT and I think it will
need that book but not Vehicles, UT, etc.


______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:48:34 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: OT: :Gamma World

- ----------
> From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: OT: :Gamma World
> Date: Tuesday, 11 May, 1999 8:58 PM

> I wonder what the legal logistics would be for them to do a Traveller
> book for Alternity?  Or are we talking sacriledge?  :)

SJG might object, loudly.  Even if they don't have exclusive rights to all
"generic" ports of Traveller, introducing another alternate system would
really dilute the value of their license.    

I don't think it would be good for the game, either.  It would spread the
limited amount of Traveller dollars between too many vendors for any of
them to be viable.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 20:44:09 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Questions

Okay, I have some help type questions for everyone.

First off, didn't the LBB's contain some basic rules on speculative cargos?
If so,, anyone want to share?

Secondly, someone's website had FF&S type rules for constructing buildings,
figuring power usage for buildings, etc... Anyone have the url?

That's about it for now.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -----Original Message-----
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: G:T Starships - Self Contained?


>At 03:32 PM 5/11/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>On Tue, 11 May 1999, Thomas Schoene wrote:
>>
>>> There's also a book entitled GURPS Traveller: Starships in progress;
>>
>>Pardon me if anyone has asked this already (I tend to skip over most of
>>the starship design number crunching threads), but does anyone know if G:T
>>Starships is going to be self-contained or not? Will it stand alone as a
>>product without GURPS: Vehicles, GURPS: Ultratech, etc etc etc etc ?
>
>AFAIK, it will be stand alone.  GURPS Vehicles is needed to design custom
>components, but just GT:S (or for that matter GT) is enough for ones using
>standard modules. In T4 terms, think GT=QSDS, GT:S=SSDS, G:VE=FF&S.
>(Except that ST:S won't be broken at publicaion....)
>
>          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
>
>--
>jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
>                         defend to the death your right to say it."
>                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire
>#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
>                              -- Albert Einstein
>for PGP public-key and
>more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
>WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:49:02 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics  of Drop Tanks)

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Takes longer for the chunks to get insystem though.  And it takes
> > time to find those chunks out there.  They're not exactly an ice cube
> > every 200 meters, y'know.
> 
> If you've got a GG with a fairly *new* ring system (like Saturn), then
> you can use ice chunks from there.

<nod>
 
> If you've got an asteroid belt past the "ice line" (the distance from
> the star where sub km chunks of ice are long term stable) then that's a
> good choice, as it *will* have a fair number of ice chunks (and few
> carbonaceous chondrites).

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.  Gonna have to look at that...
 
> If you go out to the Kuiper belt, sure they'll be far apart. But ypu'll
> also be about to find *big* chunks. They'll be rarer, but easier to
> find. 

Dunno bout easier to find.  Transstellar space is pretty big.  It's like 
trying to find a needle in a haystack.  Anybody got any figures on the 
distribution of iceballs in a Kuiper Belt?
 
> A simple ion drive or mass driver can be installed on them and they'll
> head in-system. It'll take *decades* if not a century or two. But it'll
> also take that sort of time scale to use them up. 

Depends on how much shipping you get through an area, doesn't it?
 
> >> Make that a lot of tonnage flinging around in a narrow range of
> >> orbits.  Orbits that, even in todays technology, are easy to
> >> determine.  Of course you choose orbits that pass just outside
> >> of the 100 diam limit (so they won't cross the path of ships
> >> travelling out to the limit) until the thrusters kick in and
> >> slow them down (in case they fail) an put them into some predetermine
> >> plantary orbit for later retreival.
> >
> > Obviously you'd give the ice cubes the right-of-way insystem.
> 
> And if you've got people busily refining the ice, the "waste" they dump
> overboard (mostly rock dust) will make a decent, if not spectactular
> comet tail, making them *easy* to see.

It still depends on how far out the ice cubes are.  It takes over a week to go 
a billion klicks at 1G.
 
> I say refining, because, since you'd need a few people to tend to the
> drive, you might as well have a few more and have them process the ice.

Or automate the process.  Higher tech levels can be nice.

> They'll have a nice place to live for quite a few years (lots of the
> hard to find life support chemicals like nitrogen). And they can use a
> mass driver to boost refined "ice" into orbits that'll get it to the
> inner system much faster. And help bring the body into the desired
> orbit. 

What gets me is, some of the older desert worlds are bound to have a few 
hundred ice balls in their Kuiper Belts, and they've been civilised (*and* 
high tech) for quite some time.  And I *KNOW* there's planets like this in the 
Solomani Rim, I just don't happen to have my copy anywhere handy at the 
moment.  So howcome they didn't move a few iceteroids insystem and crash 'em 
into the planet to provide water yet??

> Heck, I wouldn't be surprised to see such "ice miners" also growing
> enough food to export!

I can see them also developing freefall organisms for use in asteroid belt systems.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:52:44 -0400
From: "Judith Carlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Post TNE ship design rules

>>I've been a bit out of touch for a while.  Could anyone give me a tumbnail
>>sketch of the ship design rules which have emerged since the downfall of
>>TNE/FF&S.
>>
>> Are any of them of comparable flexibility to FF&S?
>>
>>Anyone have any idea of future plans in this area?
>>
>>Thanks

>The following might be wrong, especially the GURPS info.

>GURPS
>This has a modular design system in the GURPS Traveller book
>and a full system in GURPS Vehicles.

>For GURPS, I think something like GT:Shipyard is going to provide
>a full range of Traveller specific components.

Specific Modules for Drop Tubes and bunkrooms have appeared in Star Mercs
and Liner Recreational Modules, like swimming pools and theaters have
appeared in Far Trader.


Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:50:09 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel... 

> In a message dated 99-05-11 10:25:52 EDT, you write:
> 
> <<  I happen to suspect that the cheapest thing would be to get water from a
>  worlds surface - fewer losses to skimming accidents over the years. However,
>  I assumed that this was not an option for arguments sake - it's just too 
>  easy, and not universally available. GG skimming probably (?) wins overall.
>   >>
> 
> What about a VERY long teather that links a docking/prosesing plant to a fuel 
> scoop in the GG?  You would need CG to keep it from falling into the GG.

Shouldn't, if it's long enough and strong enough.  There's been some tether 
designs published about; don't know of any right off the top of my head tho...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 20:54:14 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: More Questions

I know i have requested this before, but alas my HD at work was a vicitm
this week.

I need the FF&S info on Masers (for power transmission/communications)
and the info for rectifiers (maser receivers)>
Could someone be so kind as to share:)
Pretty Please:)

TV

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:18:04 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: OT: :Gamma World

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> To quote a famous Pace Picante Sauce commercial here in the States:
> 
> "Get a rope."
> 
> Jesse
> :)
> 
>
I only mentioned it because IMHO Traveller, Gamma World and AD&D are the
very best games for their respective genres.  However, this Alternity
thing is really getting crammed down our throats.  The addition of a
Gamma World setting is merely a weak handwave at the crew on the Gamma
world Emailing list to jump on the wagon.

I miss the good old days where games were games and men were men and
sheep were scared...:)
- --
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:19:26 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: OT: :Gamma World

> I don't think it would be good for the game, either.  It would spread the
> limited amount of Traveller dollars between too many vendors for any of
> them to be viable.
> 
Ahh..true.  I hadn't thought of that.  Now what was it I was going to
buy with that 170 million lotto?  :)
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:38:10 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re:   Re: McClellan

In a message dated 5/11/99 4:02:28 PM, you wrote:

<<You're giving me urges to dig out GDW's 'A House Divided' again.
>>

Which edition do you have? I have the one with the puzzle map, and it really 
annoys me...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 20:51:07 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: OT: :Gamma World

SSSSSSSSSSPPPEEEEEEEWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!
ROTFLMAOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesse




> I miss the good old days where games were games and men were men and
> sheep were scared...:)
> --
> ___________________________________________________________
>  J-Man
>  ICQ# 2843475
>  Email : j-man@iname.com
>  Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
> ___________________________________________________________
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:57:19 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel... 

In a message dated 99-05-11 21:39:47 EDT, you write:

<< Course, a *REAL* bitch would be a totally dry system; no water & no GG's. 
>>

Thats what fuel stations are for.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #610
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 12 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 611



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel... 
Re: Traveller CD project
Oldies, but goodies!
Re: Traveller CD project
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: one minor comment on Virus
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel... 
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel... 
Re: Old Computer Fogey was Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Traveller CD project 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel... 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Drop tank numbers
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)
Re: Economics of Service Stations
Re: Drop tank numbers 
Re: Economics of Service Stations
Re: Economics of Service Stations
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?
Re: Price of Freight
Re: Economics of Service Stations
Re: Economics of Service Stations 
Re: Price of Freight 
Re: Questions 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:31:08 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel... 

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel... 
...
>>   I happen to suspect that the cheapest thing would be to get water from a
>> worlds surface - fewer losses to skimming accidents over the years. However,
>> I assumed that this was not an option for arguments sake - it's just too 
>> easy, and not universally available. GG skimming probably (?) wins overall.
>
>Which is why I looked at GG's.  Seems *most* systems have some GG's around.
>
>Course, a *REAL* bitch would be a totally dry system; no water & no GG's.

  FWIW, there are three such systems in the Islands Cluster; one - Achille -
has _no_ refuelling capacity at all (the other two have inherent capacity of
the starport, which may represent providing comet/rock based assets or merely
non-dipping available liguid resources on the mainworld).

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:31:57 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller CD project

In a message dated 5/11/99 9:03:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com writes:

> Understandable.  Do you have a ball-park estimate as to when this will
>  be available?  Aside from the new Star Wars movie, nothing else has more
>  of my interest.  :)  Also, what will the pricing be like?

Maybe Christmas 2000 given more volunteers (or more work done by current 
group).

No idea on pricing.

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 99 23:37:07 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Oldies, but goodies!

On 05/11/99 at 09:40 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:

>Captain to new crewmember:

>"Well, the damn nic in the aft engineering workstation died a month
>ago, and since it's a 150 year old model, it's been hard to find
>parts...so we just do everything by hand...I know, I know, it's a
>pain, and someday we're gonna have to jump on less than 12 hours
>notice...I'll get _around_ to it, ok? Now go pound on the forward
>stab'rd ventilation controller, the damn relay's stuck closed again,
>and if that keeps up it's gonna be like an icebox in the passenger
>cabins again."

Bruce, you have it!  Now remember those words when you get to the Mae Lee. ;->

Do you remember that post about quirks that came out a month ago?  I think older ships need to develop "interesting quirks" as they age...don't you?  The list needs to be adjusted for differing technologies, but it is an excellent idea.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 01:41:07 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD project

Kagehira@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 5/11/99 9:03:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com writes:
> 
> > Understandable.  Do you have a ball-park estimate as to when this will
> >  be available?  Aside from the new Star Wars movie, nothing else has more
> >  of my interest.  :)  Also, what will the pricing be like?
> 
> Maybe Christmas 2000 given more volunteers (or more work done by current
> group).
> 
> No idea on pricing.
> 
> Bryan

What needs to be done still?

- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 01:32:56 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In a message dated 99-05-11 18:50:55 EDT, you write:

<< >In the old days, youngster, the only storage for personal computers was
 >paper tape (which required expensive surpulus paper tape readers and
 >punches) or cassette tape (as in standard household tape recorders). 
 >
 >300 baud was about standard. About the time floppies started to become
 >somewhat affordable (I was glad to pay *only* $150 for a drive!) data
 >rates for tapes got somewhat better. Say 1500 baud. 
 >
 >I have a *lot* of old cassette tapes in a box in the bedroom, as well
 >as a cassette recorder that's "optimized" for computer use. 
 >
 >You young whiuppersnappers just have no appreciation for things...
 >
 ><curmudgeon mode off>
 >
 
 Yep, them thar were 'd days...
 
 By the way I repaired a paper tape system only 5 years ago or so.  Talk
 about latency! >>

Wow, they used paper? Things have gotten better in the past few years.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 01:43:23 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

In a message dated 99-05-11 18:50:41 EDT, you write:

<< Then cobble togethere some good old fashioned analog control systems.  Let
 the virus try to munch on those!  Or a mechanical control system like the
 old Barber-Coldmans. >>

What would it do to a neural jack and the persons brains and to I even want 
to know?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 01:54:25 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel... 

> In a message dated 99-05-11 21:39:47 EDT, you write:
> 
> << Course, a *REAL* bitch would be a totally dry system; no water & no GG's. 
> >>
> 
> Thats what fuel stations are for.

Yeah, you get to pack every last gram of LHyd in.  Not cheep.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 01:55:40 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel... 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel... 
> ...
> >>   I happen to suspect that the cheapest thing would be to get water from a
> >> worlds surface - fewer losses to skimming accidents over the years. However,
> >> I assumed that this was not an option for arguments sake - it's just too 
> >> easy, and not universally available. GG skimming probably (?) wins overall.
> >
> >Which is why I looked at GG's.  Seems *most* systems have some GG's around.
> >
> >Course, a *REAL* bitch would be a totally dry system; no water & no GG's.
> 
>   FWIW, there are three such systems in the Islands Cluster; one - Achille -
> has _no_ refuelling capacity at all (the other two have inherent capacity of
> the starport, which may represent providing comet/rock based assets or merely
> non-dipping available liguid resources on the mainworld).

I don't happen to have a copy of TCS around, so I have zero information on the Islands Clusters.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 01:59:35 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Old Computer Fogey was Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In a message dated 99-05-11 15:17:49 EDT, you write:

<<      The original 5150 IBM PC did not come with a 128 byte 5 1/4" floppy 
drive.
 It used audio cassette tapes.  A special cord connected a port on the
 system to a standard cassette player/recorder.
 
      An old friend who enjoyed composing music for the PC's paper speaker
 even had some of her tunes accessing the cassette as a percussion device. >>

Ah, those must have been the days...
Now we a spoiled with C++ and what not
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 01:56:14 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD project 

> In a message dated 5/11/99 9:03:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com writes:
> 
> > Understandable.  Do you have a ball-park estimate as to when this will
> >  be available?  Aside from the new Star Wars movie, nothing else has more
> >  of my interest.  :)  Also, what will the pricing be like?
> 
> Maybe Christmas 2000 given more volunteers (or more work done by current 
> group).
> 
> No idea on pricing.

What all needs scanning in yet?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:02:02 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
...
>> >>   You feel that Cr 10-15 per Dt is a fairly burdensome expense for
>> >> transporting L-Hyd from a GG to a large-scale shipping facility up
>> >> to a quarter of a year away?
>> >
>> >It's not zero, is it?  Remember, you're shipping a *LOT* of fuel.  It
adds up.
>> 
>>   No, yes, and yes :)  FWIW, it's at least mildly strange to insist that only
>> zero is "dirt-cheap"; thus = free? 
>
>Free *ISN'T* cheap????
>
>Moving 10KT of fuel at 10-15Cr per is 10-15KCr.  It ain't lunch money.

  Only the per unit costs matters, obviously; is Cr 15 per Dt truly significant?
FWIW, I would describe it as "dirt-cheap" for the service in question.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 02:09:33 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel... 

In a message dated 99-05-12 02:02:43 EDT, you write:

<< Yeah, you get to pack every last gram of LHyd in.  Not cheep. >>

If its the only way then it must be done.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:17:27 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
...
>True enough, but expenses tend to eat into profits.  The more your goods cost 
>you to aquire, the narrower your profit margin is.  Now, I'm not an economic 
>genius; AAMOF, I consider economics to be an arcane art just this side of 
>witchcraft (no offense to any Wiccans here).  I don't understand it.  Period.

  To quote todays column by big business' favourite poster-boy in B.C.:
   "You don't have to be a commerce major to appreciate that when businesses
find costs going up, they raise their prices, provided the market can stand it."

  As we're discussing the most efficient way to provide L-Hyd to freighters at
a given nexus, it could be pointed out that whatever that method or its cost
is it will tend to deliver a normal profit (ROI), all else being equal.

  Thus, only the relative cost of delivering L-Hyd to a service station is
relevant, not its absolute cost, barring tremendous extremes*.

 * which, ironically, are fairly easily addressed using the HG2 drop-tank rules.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:17:43 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop tank numbers

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Drop tank numbers
...
>I base my 1KCr/ton/jump figure on the rules, which I *interpret* as, long
haul freighting is subsidised by *somebody*.  Don't know *who*, don't *CARE*
who.  Why should I worry about how much some megacorp is paying to ship
stuff 3 parsecs at a shot when I'm busy trying to sell what I have in front
of me *right now* and trying to make a quick credit on it?

  FWIW, IYTU the "free-enterprise" 3I is built around trade that is both
ruthlessly
policed _and_ heavily subsidized, and you as ref neither know nor care by whom?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:30:40 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

>From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation
...
>The Mary Rose is the only 16th century warship on display anywhere in
>the world. Built between 1509 and 1511, she was one of the first ships
>able to fire a broadside, and was a firm favourite of King Henry VIII.
>After a long and successful career, she sank accidentally during an
>engagement with the French fleet in 1545. Her rediscovery and raising
>were seminal events in the history of nautical archaeology.

  ISTR something about limited freeboard and low, open gunports in a turn?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:30:57 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
...
>> Good work, eh, Brain? So what are we going to do tomorrow night?
>
>We're going to develope you a sense of humour.

  This sounds...  ... painful - is it as bad as "Leroy"?

...
>Don't forget to factor in government interference.

  Heck, yeah - and miss the fun?

>>   Feel free to comment if you have any cogent observations to make on
>> the shipping economics/drop tank issues.
>
>You have my comments on pure-drop tankage, probably on file.  And despite your 
>attempts to swing things in tangentical directions, the facts remain that an 
>80 ton drop tank will still cost 90KCr dry, and *still* need to be filled.
  
  Per TCS, "_the tanks themselves_* must also be purchased at a cost of
Cr 1000 per ton" - (* my emphasis) - remember, no house rules! And thanks
for the tip about filling `em :>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:31:14 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 
...
>Well, if you follow the HG ruleset, it flat out states that all-drop jump 
>tankage is illegal.  Not to mention a *RILLY* bad idea in frontier areas.

  I'll post this one again for you:
...
> Per A:5, TCS, p. 12, header: "The following rules clarifications are presented
>to more carefully state some of the concepts of that (HG2) book". Same section,
>p. 13, Fuel Tankage: "jump fuel and additional fuel (i.e. beyond that of the
>power plant requirements, which _must_ be permanent internal tankage) may be
>carried in one of the additional tankage types outlined below." Drop tanks are
>the last of the four options, and are described in detail on p. 14.
>
>  (all parenthetical comments are mine)
>
>        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 02:34:43 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop tank numbers 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Drop tank numbers
> ...
> >I base my 1KCr/ton/jump figure on the rules, which I *interpret* as, long
> haul freighting is subsidised by *somebody*.  Don't know *who*, don't *CARE*
> who.  Why should I worry about how much some megacorp is paying to ship
> stuff 3 parsecs at a shot when I'm busy trying to sell what I have in front
> of me *right now* and trying to make a quick credit on it?
> 
>   FWIW, IYTU the "free-enterprise" 3I is built around trade that is both
> ruthlessly
> policed _and_ heavily subsidized, and you as ref neither know nor care by whom?

More like 'cutthroat competition'.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:48:02 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations

>From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations
...
>I am beginning to think lot of this argument is caused by rules artifacts
>in High Guard and the abuses you can make with them by making assumptions
>and extrapolations. Using different rules sets, you will likely get
>different results (as was found with PAs and Meson guns in GURPS Traveller).

  Abuses? Oh, that's an entirely different project - drop-tanks hardly begin
to exhaust the possibilities - although they help _a lot_.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:48:27 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations

>From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations
...
>Remember, you can say a lot of sarcastic and mean things to your friends in
>the real world and have them be really funny, but the same does not seem to
>hold true through the medium of email.

  Hey - you're oppressing me! Help, help, I'm being...
        <FWOOMP> *

 * the Traveller Socialist Conspiracy would like to take this opportunity to
condemn the cavalier use of plasma guns in suppressing dissent. **

** the Ministry for Social Cohesion, Serendip Combine, Internal Affairs
Division,
on the other appendage, approves whole-heartedly even while preferring FGMP's...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 03:08:18 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
> ...
> >> Good work, eh, Brain? So what are we going to do tomorrow night?
> >
> >We're going to develope you a sense of humour.
> 
>   This sounds...  ... painful - is it as bad as "Leroy"?

Worse.

> ...
> >Don't forget to factor in government interference.
> 
>   Heck, yeah - and miss the fun?
> 
> >>   Feel free to comment if you have any cogent observations to make on
> >> the shipping economics/drop tank issues.
> >
> >You have my comments on pure-drop tankage, probably on file.  And despite your 
> >attempts to swing things in tangentical directions, the facts remain that an 
> >80 ton drop tank will still cost 90KCr dry, and *still* need to be filled.
>   
>   Per TCS, "_the tanks themselves_* must also be purchased at a cost of
> Cr 1000 per ton" - (* my emphasis) - remember, no house rules! And thanks
> for the tip about filling `em :>
 
You can go farther on full tanks than empty ones.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:29:51 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?

> From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>

> On Tue, 11 May 1999, Glenn M. Goffin wrote: 

> > We'll have to reconsider the tech level of certain neural weapons.
> 
> Maybe not. I gathered from the article that they still have not built a
> working model, and that the current plan is to create a device which is
> suitcase-sized. They *expect* that developing technologies will enable the
> size to be reduced, but that's a long way from a working stunner in every
> policeman's holster.

You're quite right, but then we do have a long way in the Traveller time
line.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:52:54 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Price of Freight

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers 

>> Alternativly, the State could merely let buyers and sellers agree on a
>> price they are both happy with.
>
>Considering the 3I is a mercantile-based empire, I don't see the 3I as
having a problem with that.

So why, in the name of Saint Joan, Piero of Blessed Memory, John Maynard in
his Bed and the Old Man in the Reading Room, do you hold onto a fixed Cr
1000 per dton freight rate as if it was Holy Writ ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 19:17:14 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 
>
>> >Considering I don't *have* an economic model.  I simply maintained that
a 400
>> >ton ship *and* a fueling station costs more than a 400 ton ship by itself.
>> >You keep trying to convince me differently.
>> 
>> The idea is that while the start-up cost for a single 400-ton ship may be
>> less than a 400-ton ship plus fueling station and its support craft, the
>> long-term economic benefits of the ship plus fueling station eventually pay
>> for this, and end up in larger profits for those involved.
>
>Eventually.  If you assume the standard 40 year payoff, you get to wait
for 40 
>years for your big cashflow rakeins.  Til then, you gotta cover the nut.
> 

Keven, drop tanks do not reduce the capital cost of a 400 dton starship
that can carry 200 dtons of cargo and do a jump-4. It does however reduce
the capital cost of a system that can move 200 dtons of freight four parsecs.

It helps if you think of commercial starships as piles of cargo surrounded
by megacredits. Ship size doesnt count - only the relationship between the
size of the pile of cargo and the size of the protective layer of megacredits.

Drop tank ships need less megacredits for a given pile of cargo, even when
you include a 'service station slice'. This is because you dont need
expensive jump drives to push empty fuel tankage through hyperspace, and
expensive power plants to power those jump drives. 

You may want to go back to my Drop Tanks Redux post of the 10th of April,
and see how you can make money under G:T using drop tanks. I believe that
Steve Hudson has shown the same thing under High Guard.

This assumes that you do not have a fixed freight rate regardless of distance.

Things get more complex when you have systems with low up-front costs but
high maintainence costs (eg roads) when you are comparing them to systems
with high up front costs but low maintainence costs ... but thats where
discounted cash flow analysis comes into it (as an example, figure out what
Cr 1000 per year worth *now*, if interest rates are permanently fixed at
5%. The answer is at the bottom. By reversing this, you can calculate what
you can afford to spend now, to save Cr 1000 per year, given a ruling rate
of interest).

Ian Whitchurch

PS The answer is the income stream divided by the interest rate, or 1000 /
0.05, or 20 000.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 05:01:11 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 

> 
> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 
> >
> >> >Considering I don't *have* an economic model.  I simply maintained that
> a 400
> >> >ton ship *and* a fueling station costs more than a 400 ton ship by itself.
> >> >You keep trying to convince me differently.
> >> 
> >> The idea is that while the start-up cost for a single 400-ton ship may be
> >> less than a 400-ton ship plus fueling station and its support craft, the
> >> long-term economic benefits of the ship plus fueling station eventually pay
> >> for this, and end up in larger profits for those involved.
> >
> >Eventually.  If you assume the standard 40 year payoff, you get to wait
> for 40 
> >years for your big cashflow rakeins.  Til then, you gotta cover the nut.
> > 
> 
> Keven, drop tanks do not reduce the capital cost of a 400 dton starship
> that can carry 200 dtons of cargo and do a jump-4. It does however reduce
> the capital cost of a system that can move 200 dtons of freight four parsecs.

I was refering to the cost of the *STATION*.
 
Keveb

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 05:04:29 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Price of Freight 

> 
> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers 
> 
> >> Alternativly, the State could merely let buyers and sellers agree on a
> >> price they are both happy with.
> >
> >Considering the 3I is a mercantile-based empire, I don't see the 3I as
> having a problem with that.
> 
> So why, in the name of Saint Joan, Piero of Blessed Memory, John Maynard in
> his Bed and the Old Man in the Reading Room, do you hold onto a fixed Cr
> 1000 per dton freight rate as if it was Holy Writ ?

Because, by St. Elvis of Terra, it's the best rate.  Can you say 'cut rate 
competiton'?  Can you say 'government subsidies'?

Now, this doesn't mean that it's the *only* rate that can be charged.  IIRC, 
I've seen Amber Zones where the patron offers double rates, whatever.  I see 
the 1KCr/ton as the 'lowball bid' due to excessive competition.  Let's face 
it, if there was only *one* airline, tickets would be about 5 or 6 times what 
they are now.

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 05:16:24 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Questions 

> Okay, I have some help type questions for everyone.
> 
> First off, didn't the LBB's contain some basic rules on speculative cargos?
> If so,, anyone want to share?

Yeah, they did.  They were so good that they got rewritten as the generic 
cargo rules of MT & beyond.  <grin>  Under the old rules, with some decent 
skillage, I could usually pay off just about any ship in the book, starting 
with a 125KCr stake, in under 3 years.  <grin>
 
Keven

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 05:17:26 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
> ...
> >> >>   You feel that Cr 10-15 per Dt is a fairly burdensome expense for
> >> >> transporting L-Hyd from a GG to a large-scale shipping facility up
> >> >> to a quarter of a year away?
> >> >
> >> >It's not zero, is it?  Remember, you're shipping a *LOT* of fuel.  It
> adds up.
> >> 
> >>   No, yes, and yes :)  FWIW, it's at least mildly strange to insist that only
> >> zero is "dirt-cheap"; thus = free? 
> >
> >Free *ISN'T* cheap????
> >
> >Moving 10KT of fuel at 10-15Cr per is 10-15KCr.  It ain't lunch money.
> 
>   Only the per unit costs matters, obviously; is Cr 15 per Dt truly significant?
> FWIW, I would describe it as "dirt-cheap" for the service in question.

It's 15% of the standard rate for unrefined fuel.  You call that dirt cheap?

Keven

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #611
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 12 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 612



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Economics of Service Stations 
Re: Economics of Service Stations 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Oldies, but goodies!
Re: OT: :Gamma World
re: Drop Tank Numbers
Re: Oldies, but goodies!
re: I'm back from the sea
re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: one minor comment on Virus
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks
re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: You might not belive this...
RE: OT: :Gamma World
Fleet Ops
Re: GT: Far Trader trade route question
re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 05:19:36 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
> ...
> >True enough, but expenses tend to eat into profits.  The more your goods cost 
> >you to aquire, the narrower your profit margin is.  Now, I'm not an economic 
> >genius; AAMOF, I consider economics to be an arcane art just this side of 
> >witchcraft (no offense to any Wiccans here).  I don't understand it.  Period.
> 
>   To quote todays column by big business' favourite poster-boy in B.C.:
>    "You don't have to be a commerce major to appreciate that when businesses
> find costs going up, they raise their prices, provided the market can stand it."

And competition will drive them right back down again.  Why you think the gov 
gets rilly rilly weird when they start thinking you got a monopoly on 
something?
 
Keven

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 05:20:52 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 
> ...
> >Well, if you follow the HG ruleset, it flat out states that all-drop jump 
> >tankage is illegal.  Not to mention a *RILLY* bad idea in frontier areas.
> 
>   I'll post this one again for you:
> ...
> > Per A:5, TCS, p. 12, header: "The following rules clarifications are presented
> >to more carefully state some of the concepts of that (HG2) book". Same section,
> >p. 13, Fuel Tankage: "jump fuel and additional fuel (i.e. beyond that of the
> >power plant requirements, which _must_ be permanent internal tankage) may be
> >carried in one of the additional tankage types outlined below." Drop tanks are
> >the last of the four options, and are described in detail on p. 14.
> >
> >  (all parenthetical comments are mine)

Toldja I dunno how many times, I don't have TCS laying around here.  Why you think I asked you if you could clone it for me?

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 05:21:26 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 

> >From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
> >Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations
> ...
> >I am beginning to think lot of this argument is caused by rules artifacts
> >in High Guard and the abuses you can make with them by making assumptions
> >and extrapolations. Using different rules sets, you will likely get
> >different results (as was found with PAs and Meson guns in GURPS Traveller).
> 
>   Abuses? Oh, that's an entirely different project - drop-tanks hardly begin
> to exhaust the possibilities - although they help _a lot_.

No, this is Argument.  Abuse is down the hall.

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 10:36:23 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

At 16:03 11/05/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>> >Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
>> ...
>> >> >Like I say, you can do it.  You just can't do it dirt cheap.
>> >> 
>> >>   You feel that Cr 10-15 per Dt is a fairly burdensome expense for
>> >> transporting L-Hyd from a GG to a large-scale shipping facility up
>> >> to a quarter of a year away?
>> >
>> >It's not zero, is it?  Remember, you're shipping a *LOT* of fuel.  It
adds up.
>> 
>>   No, yes, and yes :)  FWIW, it's at least mildly strange to insist that
only
>> zero is "dirt-cheap"; thus = free? 
>
>Free *ISN'T* cheap????
>
>Moving 10KT of fuel at 10-15Cr per is 10-15KCr.  It ain't lunch money.

When the freighter captain is paying 300Cr/dt for refined fuel, it is
cheap.

And the rules imply that you can get fuel at this price from an orbital
facility (the highport).

(300Cr might be wrong, but I'm sure its between 100Cr and 500Cr)

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:48:42 ADT
From: "Les Howie" <les_howie@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Oldies, but goodies!

>Do you remember that post about quirks that came out a month ago?  I think 
>older ships need to develop "interesting quirks" as they age...don't you?  
>The list needs to be adjusted for differing technologies, but it is an 
>excellent idea.
>
>Eris

Smell should be a big part of this.  I seem to recall one old reference 
commenting on the limitations of the air purification system of scout ships. 
  I do know old fishing boats never quite loose the odor, even when made of 
steel.  any TU should have comparable cargoes.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 06:02:46 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: OT: :Gamma World

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> To quote a famous Pace Picante Sauce commercial here in the States:
>
> "Get a rope."
>
> Jesse
> :)
>
> > I wonder what the legal logistics would be for them to do a Traveller
> > book for Alternity?  Or are we talking sacriledge?  :)

 Got it... Get a tree.

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:03:12 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Drop Tank Numbers

David P. Summers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well, reason you don't design them to stand up to those
stresses is that you don't have to (actually, it is easy enough to design
it to stand up to micrometeorites that you would go ahead and do it).
Therefore, the lack of those features doesn't make them undependable and
undurable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Still, you must admit that a starship hull has more elaborate design
specs than a disposable fuel tank - thus, ton for ton, the starship hull
will cost more. If you start giving the disposable fuel tank comparable
capabilites to the starship hull, the disposable fuel tank's cost per ton
should start to approach that of the starship hull.

For example, let's say you make the disposable fuel tank durable enough
to last decades or centuries - making it, in effect, re-usable instead of
disposable. If one tank is designed for one use between refurbishings,
and another tank is designed to go a year between refurbishings, don't
you think there will be a price difference between the two?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:27:20 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Oldies, but goodies!

>>Do you remember that post about quirks that came out a month ago?  I think
>>older ships need to develop "interesting quirks" as they age...don't you?
>>The list needs to be adjusted for differing technologies, but it is an
>>excellent idea.
>>
>>Eris
>
>Smell should be a big part of this.  I seem to recall one old reference
>commenting on the limitations of the air purification system of scout ships.
>  I do know old fishing boats never quite loose the odor, even when made of
>steel.  any TU should have comparable cargoes.

"Groat, I hate Groat."

After a bad odor experience (in the March Harrier no less!) One
Player-Captain had such an aversion to live (and, by association, dead)
Groat that he would not even consider shipping Groat products in any form.

I still remember a "flavor paragraph" from Jo and Lesley Grant's "101
Cargos", paraphrased;

Captain: "Whaddaya mean they're live!  They're supposed to be dead!  It
says right here, dead groat!"

Broker: "No, see that symbol? That indicates the future tense, they *will*
be dead, which, of course, means they are not dead yet."

That book is full os such neatnesses.  I'll never forget the look on their
faces when they found out they were shipping feces of artists...in fragile
glass containers no less.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:24:38 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: I'm back from the sea

Dom Mooney wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
In the UK, apple juice is apple juice, fermented apple juice is cider, and
then you can get Apple brandy...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
In the states, unprocessed apple juice (fresh squeezed from the cider
press) is Cider, filtered (and often sweetened) apple juice is Apple Juice,
fermented apple juice is Hard Cider, apple brandy is Apple Brandy, and
the liquid you get when you freeze hard cider and skim out the water
ice is Applejack - sort of like an apple whiskey.

Yes, the Cinnamon Jack hangover was an educational experience.
I'm still trying to figure out how a bunch of low-level AD&D characters
slew a god and took home a pile of artifacts and relics, but that was
my handwriting on their character sheets...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:42:05 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 04:37 PM 5/11/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte wrote (on reconfigurable computer cores):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Sorry, canon problem here.  This technology exists today.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Not to the extent I'm envisioning. The core is the computer - an expert
>system uses some form of fuzzy logic to see what programs need to
>run on what hardware, and through multiple iterations configures and
>optimizes the core to run those programs. The mutable core
>*becomes* a dedicated system, but a dedicated system that can
>reoptimize itself every time you change programs, hardware, or even
>operating parameters. A system like this would blow the doors off any
>normal kind of general-purpose system, and (depending on how computer
>technology develops), it might **be** the best kind of purpose-built system
>available.
>

Actually you are discribing a system that has been used off and on sence
cpmputers were first designed in the 50s.  The problem is by the time you
figure in the overhead you actually loose performance.  This arcatype is
often pulled out of mothballs and retried every decade of so and then
returned to the but bucket when other more generalist arcatype outperform
them 3 to one.  One thing you must consider.  On a main frame what program
is running can change every second and several hundred programs can be
running at the same time each being swapped out every little bit.  You
reconfig time become significant.

>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>The problem is in
>order to run the config more than once you need to be able to reset the core
>to it's original unconfigured pattern.  The reason is that you create the
>configuration by eliminating posible curcuit paths untill you have the
>pattern you want. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Don't think "eliminate", think "generate". The matrix is a nearly
>undifferentiated medium at start, the configuration equipment creates
>3D "circuits" (or the equivalent) in the medium. Resetting it to unconfigured
>should be easy, just zap it back to uniform goop. But what if the 
>diagnostic gear you're using is infected as well? Sure, your CompTech
>kit will tell you you've reset the system, but did you really?
>

Sorry, nice idea but not workable.  You media has to be conductive.  One
giant mass of conductive matterial is just a short.  No order and no way to
impose order.  You have to start with a cell and path matrix to provide to
basic structure and an acess to the areas to need to alter.  You concept
would not work with opitical systems either due to to need for the light
pipe.  There are also the problems of waste impurities and assured load.

>And even if you have reset the core, how do you rebuild the system without
>reinfecting it? Since it takes a computer to config the computer, you're still 
>at the mercy of the technology.
>

The problem is it does not fit canon.  In canon get rid of the virus to
tough.  Using this technology getting rid of the virus is easy.  Restarting
the computer taked some work.  As for the reconfig computer, for obvious
reasons it would be a portable hardwires dedicated computer that would not
be vunerable to the virus.  You alway secure and muliply redundant such a
system.  And such a low level reconfig would be a last resort anyway as such
a system would have a more commonly used partial reconfig program always
running.

>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Also with this functionality
>fighting the virus would be a cake walk.  You set up a recursive self
>replicating pattern killing routine that guts the virus as it tries to take
>over the system.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>You realize that's kind of like trying to kill a DOS boot sector virus by
>closing your Windows program?
>
>Virus is running the system. It will accept the calls to run your pattern
>killing routine, chuckle at it, and make you think it's working perfectly.
>

No, that to high level.  You would add a routine to the always running
reconfig program that detectected the virus figure print are reconfigured
it.  It would be very low level.  Lower than the DOS.  Either just after
system INI code or part of the INI code before running the boot strap loader.

>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>You even have a readily obtainable master key to use in
>targeting this overwatch program.  While the system you perpose would be
>easy for the virus to concure in would be easily 'virus proofed' by even a
>doofer of a system operater.  Open button super reset!  Then reconfigure in
>an easy to deduce virus proof configuration.  It even rids you of the danger
>of 'seeds', reconfigure everything at the same time using your factory
>provided ROM utility disk that is not writable so is 100% virus proof!  
>"Viruses, we don't worry about eenniee siiiinkiingg viirruuussssseeesssss!"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
>There is no "factory setting", not in the usual sense. The configuration
>utility has to run as a semi-intelligent process, identifying the computer's
>environment and creating a custom build to best support that environment.
>The configuration tool will probably see it's reconfiguration attempts
>met by and countered by the Virus during the diagnostic phase (when
>information is being sent to the configuration equipment). Result: your
>system comes up "Configuration Complete", Virus lays an egg in your
>configuration tool.
>

The congfig tool is NOT connected during nornal operation.  It's in a padded
case mark, emergency use only.  It is ROM based and writen by the factory.
Also when you key the 'RETURN TO DEFAULT' function the virus no longer
exists, it is not running because NOTHING is running.  If it put copies of
itself on disk or whatever media it might come back after recofig IF the
system operater were so utterly stupid as to not prep the disks and reload
from clean ROMs.

>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Also, reconfigurable systems like these can not be at the cutting edge as
>far as speed and efficency.  They will be a good bit slower with less
>features and fewer bells and whisles.  They will be much larger than a
>compatable purpose built system and depending on market forces a little or a
>lot more expensive depening on production quantities.  As the old saying
>goes, Jack off all trades master of none.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>There goes Charles with his GTL 7 expertise again. New technology,
>remember?
>

BS magic technology again.  No one can say what effects some future
invention MIGHT bring about so they can not be logically discussed.  So they
are NOT a valid argument or valid in normal debate.

>You never wondered how the same Model/3 computer could support
>sensors, maneuver, life support, weaponry and jump plotting in a
>Subsidized Liner and a Patrol Cruiser, with no change in size or cost?
>

Easy they are over built and like all main frame have a resorce alocation
system.

>Make a billion Model/3 computers. Sell them to every manufacturer who
>needs that kind of power. Your economies of scale will blow away the
>guy who can make a computer that could only work in a type T Patrol
>Cruiser - where he saved 20% by cutting off flexibility, you saved 50%
>by building so many of them. His market was one class of ship, built
>at one shipyard during one building run. Your market is anything with a
>3dTn computer bay that needs to go jump-3.
>

They are MAIN FRAMES.  Like Cray-2.  Not PC.  They have MASSIVE resorces and
massive IO capacity.  They can run entire cities today.

>The computers I'm envisioning here *will* be purpose built - that's what
>the configuration/optimization capability is for. Furthermore, when you add
>another laser to your turret, the computer will (automatically?) *reconfigure*
>itself so it's *still* a "purpose built" system for your ship.
>

That is what software is for.  Also your concept which could in fact be
built would be easily virus proofable as that same autoreconfigure system
couls easily be taught to kill any virus.

>It's not a jack of all trades, master of none - it's a master of whatever trade
>you wanted it to do last time you configured it, and better suited to that
>trade than anything configged in a factory could ever be.
>

Sorry, you still have cost and volume trade off.  You can not get something
for nothing...except when you use the argument of TL12 'magic' machines.

>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Military front line ships would have some of these reconfigurable units or a
>good stock of spare specialty units to replace lost specialised units AFTER
>the battle and multiply redundant armored and hardened dedicated SOTA
>primary systems (black boxes).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>If these mutable cores were produced in sufficient quantities, you'll see
>them in everything from Starships to Air Rafts to Fusion Guns - just
>smaller and smaller. Sure, maybe the core config on your electric
>toothbrush is set at the factory and never intended to change - it'll still
>use the mutable core material if it's the most readily available and 
>cheapest computer component. It probably won't have a diagnostics 
>access jack - it's too cheap to fix - but your television set will. By that
>point, *you* might...
>

You still have the problem of cost and volume.  It is not posible to build
something that is reconfigureable that is the same size and cost as a
dedicted system or a general purpose system.  The support equipment for the
reconfigurisation and the minimum clearence between track and componets
would eat you alive.  You really have not idea what you are asking of this
techlology.  I can't even think of a type of matter that it could be built
FROM.  You are trying to produce specific matterials out of a generic
'psuedo-matter'.  The technology you are discribing could turn lead to gold
or be used to make matter transporters.  Computer circuits are made of a
fair wide variety of elements and compounds that do not work or play well
together.  They have to be separated and combined in differnt enviroments to
make workable circuits.  Some of those conditions are mutually exclusive.
This inherantly puts limits on you mutable core that can not be solved until
matter energy manipulation is a mature process.  That is part of the problem
with people that say it's TL such in such we can understand it.  We can
understand enough to see what other effect such technology would have.  To
have your mutable computer cores as you discribe them would take either Star
trek type matter converters or a mature nano technology that would be
massively pervasive.  And even with the nano tech you would end up with a
system far bigger than a general purpose system of the same processing power
and speed that could run the same range of programs.

By the way a Cray-2 or any of the even more advanced systems available today
would be able to match a model-3 at least and in some ways a model-9
(depending on what you use for benchmarks).  Traveller greatly
underestimated the growth of the computer.  Of course it could be that earth
has reach TL12+ in computer technology already.  Whose to say?  Even
travller admits that a world can be very advanced in one area and not
others...perhaps we have just missed the proper concept for the other
technologies so far.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:42:18 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

At 01:43 AM 5/12/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 99-05-11 18:50:41 EDT, you write:
>
><< Then cobble togethere some good old fashioned analog control systems.  Let
> the virus try to munch on those!  Or a mechanical control system like the
> old Barber-Coldmans. >>
>
>What would it do to a neural jack and the persons brains and to I even want 
>to know?
>-Stephen
>

They would turn into real AIR-heads and gear-heads.  Those systems were
pnumatic and clockwork!  And you would really be surprised at all the things
they could do in the way of process control.  Remember in WW2 the TDCs,
Nordon bomb sights, and balistic targeting computer on ships were all clockwork!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:22:04 -0400
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks

This was related to me as really happening:

<D&D Player> "We approach the door and listen at the keyhole.  What do
we hear?"

<First-time, 12 year-old GM> (Reads description of next room from
published dungeon-crawl)  "You hear an alcove."

At which point, the players all collapsed to the floor laughing.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 10:04:23 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
BS magic technology again.  No one can say what effects some future
invention MIGHT bring about so they can not be logically discussed.  So they are NOT a valid argument or valid in normal debate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I wasn't aware this was a "normal" debate.

Jump Drive is a future invention. Most of the OTU's economic and social
structure is related to the effects of this invention. We can logically
discuss these effects, if we agree on the assumptions.

Once you agree on the active assumptions, you can logically discuss
anything. Unicorns. Vampires. Perpetual Motion Machines. Virus. A thing
does not have to exist to be logically discussed.

I'm talking speculative fiction, with analysis of the results of postulated
technologies. You, on the other hand, are talking late 20th century
computer science. You dismiss as impossible anything you can't
figure out how to build. I postulate a TL15 computer paradigm, you "prove"
that it doesn't work because it was impossible at TL7. You fail to allow 
for materials technology breakthroughs, science revolutions, synthesis
of Terran technology development with that of the Hivers and other alien
masters of computer science - you act as if everything of importance 
about computer science has already been discovered.

I don't see why someone with that mindset would be interested in a
_Science Fiction_ mailing list, especially one dedicated to a *game*.

Good night, Charles. 

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 07:16:41 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: You might not belive this...

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> >
> >
> > Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> >
> > > > 'corse I want to go to malaysa
> > >
> > > Why?
> >
> > See a friend..
>
> Good reason.

I thought so... But with the current political situation a lay over in Taipei
may not be a good idea.

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:40:15 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: RE: OT: :Gamma World

Jesse DeGraff posted:
>
>To quote a famous Pace Picante Sauce commercial here in the States:
>
>"Get a rope."
>
>Jesse
>:)


Nope, it's "_Git_ a rope".

Whut's wrang wichoo? Can't y'all spik riot?

David Smart
Dallas, TX

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 10:44:51 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Fleet Ops

I was doing some game theory on my Fleet Ops rules, and I'm running
into a bit of a snag.

Fleet Ops is my rules set for battles throughout a solar system, btw.
Instead of the fate of a system being decided in one big battle (as per
High Guard/Trillion Credit Squadron), I wanted the ability for in-system
movement - seperate battles for Gas Giants, especially.

The problem I'm seeing is the usual one for starship combat games
of any scale: why not put your entire fleet in one big pile? 

You go to an enemy system, you put all your fleet in one big task force.
Unless the defender has a massive numerical superiority, you defeat
every seperate point in the system he's trying to defend - five or ten
little battles instead of one big one. 

The defender can't allow himself to be defeated piecemeal like that, so
he'll have to commit his entire force to one big defensive task force
and intercept the invader. His only other option is to send for help,
scatter and delay.

If the above is true, then the only reason for a detailed intra-system
combat rule set would be to model the latter case - the defender (or
the attacker) scattering amongst the minor worlds of the system, 
attempting to avoid a conclusive engagement. The only reason to avoid
such an engagement is time - can you keep him occupied until a
relief force enters the system? Can you keep his fleet occupied
hunting your raiding force long enough for them to miss a crucial battle
two parsecs from here?

My Fleet Ops rules have a critical flaw - they abstract out time! They 
assume that all the battles for control of the system, no matter how few
or many, will take place within a single Trillion Credit Squadron
strategic turn*. Thus, there is no reason for a delaying action at all.
Players using my Fleet Ops system will simply lump their squadrons 
into one task force and fight it out as per High Guard - the Fleet Ops
rules thus become near-useless chrome.

The only fix I see for this is to change the level of abstraction - create
in-system travel times. Even so, an invader should be able to rendezvous
with almost every important system location within a week. We'd have
to get the time resolution down to a matter of days, and that's just too
much detail load for a subsystem for a strategic game. 

The other fix is to depend on the "draw" rules to end combats with
hostile fleets in the same system. Currently, my draw rules for Fleet Ops
end the fight for the system if five Fleet Ops turns go by with no 
battles occurring. This could happen either because both fleets are holding
back, or because one fleet is managing to avoid the other (due to superior
acceleration and/or Fleet Tactics skill).

Still, all my draw rules will mean is that the guy with the big pile 'o fleet
will just have to catch one SDB per every five Fleet Ops turns to keep his 
party rolling. Sounds like I need some adjustment there.

Ah, the challenge of game design...

Walt Smith

* Design note: the idea for all this came from Dwarfstar's _Star Viking_
game, 1981. In both TCS and Star Viking a fight within a star system
is generally settled, one way or the other, by the end of the turn.
My idea for System Zones (areas where fleets have something to
fight over) was in some ways inspired by the way _Star Viking_
lays out star systems.

_Star Viking_, btw, is a lovely little game. Raiders from beyond the outer 
rim attack the border province of a weakening galactic federation.
Defenders get to try and stop the Vikings with everything from 
federation frigates to hordes of guys with pointy sticks. Very
Travelleresque, especially the space piratish theme. ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 10:05:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: GT: Far Trader trade route question

On 05/10/99 09:40:07 you wrote:
>
>--- jmaclean@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>> >On page 14, it talks about different allegences will cause a -.5 
>> >to the bilateral trade number. What about client states to thier 
>> >overlords? Is there a drop in trade between an Imperial client 
>> >state and an Imperial world? Between Imperial client states?
>> >
>> 
>> 	Depends on the client state.  Since client states may have a 
>> good
>> deal of discretion over 
>> their tariff rates and general opennes to outside contact, the GM
>> will have to decide the size of 
>> the negative modifier, if any.  The figures included in GT:FT should
>> give you a guide for the 
>> appropriate magnitude.  Also check the side-bar in Ch.7 on modifying
>> BTNs and WTNs for some 
>> insight.
>
>I will certainly look it over tonight but the basic question was on 
>the default intent of the basic rule. Barring other word, I will 
>assume the default modifier for client states is -.5. If the GM wants 
>to modify that for specific clients, then that is the excpetion to 
>the rule. If I am mis-interpriting this, please let me know.

	Sorry I didn't make that clear.  The default is 0 for client states.  There are higher 
trade barriers for clients than for Imperial member worlds but they are not generally large 
enough to warrant a negative modifier.  Some client states are political/military rather than 
trade based and these may have a -.5 or even -1 if they are sufficiently xenophobic or different 
from the imperial norm (intelligent plants, or hive insects or something).


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
co-author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:17:19 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 10:04 AM 5/12/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>BS magic technology again.  No one can say what effects some future
>invention MIGHT bring about so they can not be logically discussed.  So
they are NOT a valid argument or valid in normal debate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I wasn't aware this was a "normal" debate.
>
>Jump Drive is a future invention. Most of the OTU's economic and social
>structure is related to the effects of this invention. We can logically
>discuss these effects, if we agree on the assumptions.
>
>Once you agree on the active assumptions, you can logically discuss
>anything. Unicorns. Vampires. Perpetual Motion Machines. Virus. A thing
>does not have to exist to be logically discussed.
>
>I'm talking speculative fiction, with analysis of the results of postulated
>technologies. You, on the other hand, are talking late 20th century
>computer science. You dismiss as impossible anything you can't
>figure out how to build. I postulate a TL15 computer paradigm, you "prove"
>that it doesn't work because it was impossible at TL7. You fail to allow 
>for materials technology breakthroughs, science revolutions, synthesis
>of Terran technology development with that of the Hivers and other alien
>masters of computer science - you act as if everything of importance 
>about computer science has already been discovered.
>
>I don't see why someone with that mindset would be interested in a
>_Science Fiction_ mailing list, especially one dedicated to a *game*.
>
>Good night, Charles. 
>
>Walt Smith
>

Very well said.  Excelent retoric.  Touche!

I am perfectly aware that you can discuss the ramifications of nearly any
suposition.  It is however rediculious for me to spend time pointing out all
the non canon side effect of the technological solutions that have been
proposed.  One technology does not exist in a vacume.  A radical advance in
one area will have great impacts in others.  It is non canon side effect
that I am trying to avoid.  The technology that would be required to do some
of what people have proposed would also make other things posible like say
personal forcefields and replicaters and solid-holos.

Now lets put my original statement BACK into the context it was cut from.

You (the TMLers, not you alone) have been proposing some very strange
technology to make your assumptions of how the virus works valid and
posible.  Some of your proposals require massive changes that would have
implecations far more reaching that just the computer industry.  These
logical side effects do not appear in canon so your proposed methods of
implementation are not workable.  Why are you adverse to a simple and
elegant solution?  Have you read the 'virus beard' proposal to even see what
my side of the argument is?  Why must we assume technology not in evidence?
Why a complicated solution when a simple one will fit canon?

I'm am first, last, and always an engineer (At least that is what my SO
says.)  KISS! is the watch world for engineers.  It mean 'Keep It Simple
Stupid'.  Why, because in many cases the simplest solution that meets the
requirements is the best and most servicable with the least unwanted side
effects.

Now as to why I reed this particular SF mail list.  It's because I have
played and enjoyed traveller for 16 years.  I have found it so enjoyable
because of the minimum amount of hand waves and 'magic' techology.  Be able
to figure out how things are suposed to work based on logical extrapolation
gives traveller a level of believability and consistancy that is lacking in
other lesser games.  It is that believability and consistance that I wish to
preserve.  It you prefer a game that is less so, then may I suggest that
perhaps it is you who are reading the wrong list.

Also I read this list because the people here are frieldly, polite,
inteligent and open to discourse.  The discussions held on this list inspire
me and make me think.  Some times they chalenge me and other times they
infuriate me (sometimes at the same time) but they always stimulate my mind
even when I can not make others see my point or when I am proven wrong after
my most pationate arguments.  

I do not mind being wrong when I learn something in the process.  (I was
shown the light in the pirate debate.)  I'd rather be proven wrong and learn
what is right than to believe myself right while being wrong.  In cases
where the concept can not be put to a real world test, the only way a
'right' answer can be agreed apone is by discourse such as this.  I'm not
saying that some of the solutions and developements purposed during this
discussion WILL NOT come about in the real world given time.  What I am
saying is that they WOULD have side effect that are not present in TRAVELLER
canon.

Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #612
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 12 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 613



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fleet Ops
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Fleet Ops
Re: I'm back from sea
Re: 3I raising military forces
Re: 3I raising military forces
Re: Oldies, but goodies!
Re: Economics of Service Stations 
Modular Cutter
Re: Old computer fogeys
Re: Fleet Ops
re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
RE: OT: :Gamma World
Re: Modular Cutter
re: 3I Raising Military Forces
re: Fleet Ops
re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: OT: :Gamma World

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:36:37 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

>Walt Smith
>
>* Design note: the idea for all this came from Dwarfstar's _Star Viking_
>game, 1981. In both TCS and Star Viking a fight within a star system
>is generally settled, one way or the other, by the end of the turn.
>My idea for System Zones (areas where fleets have something to
>fight over) was in some ways inspired by the way _Star Viking_
>lays out star systems.
>
>_Star Viking_, btw, is a lovely little game. Raiders from beyond the outer 
>rim attack the border province of a weakening galactic federation.
>Defenders get to try and stop the Vikings with everything from 
>federation frigates to hordes of guys with pointy sticks. Very
>Travelleresque, especially the space piratish theme. ;-)
>

Walt, what I am going to say is based on star system lay out as detaled in
GS so you may not be interested but here goes.

IF there is only one real target in the system like one inhabited planet and
no gas giant or it is not defended then one battle would be pretty much it
as your intire fight will be in or near the 100d limit of the target.

If there are multiple targets you get a posible different story.  With
transit times that could be in weeks from distrant GG or belt habitats you
end up with the chance of reinforcements unless the invader splits his
forces to deal with many target separated by great distances.

Also if you include the posibility that the 'Honking Big Dreadnaught'TM
going boom will damage or distroy other 'near by' ships you can force more
smaller battle because consentration of force could end up counter productive.

Hope this gives you some ideas.  You project sounds interesting.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 12:01:51 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

> >Not to the extent I'm envisioning. The core is the computer - an expert
> >system uses some form of fuzzy logic to see what programs need to
> >run on what hardware, and through multiple iterations configures and
> >optimizes the core to run those programs. The mutable core
> >*becomes* a dedicated system, but a dedicated system that can
> >reoptimize itself every time you change programs, hardware, or even
> >operating parameters. A system like this would blow the doors off any
> >normal kind of general-purpose system, and (depending on how computer
> >technology develops), it might **be** the best kind of purpose-built system
> >available.

That is very similiar to the way the Intel 'Merced" chip functions.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:09:42 -0500
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

<snip>
>My Fleet Ops rules have a critical flaw - they abstract out time! They
>assume that all the battles for control of the system, no matter how few
>or many, will take place within a single Trillion Credit Squadron
>strategic turn*. Thus, there is no reason for a delaying action at all.
>Players using my Fleet Ops system will simply lump their squadrons
>into one task force and fight it out as per High Guard - the Fleet Ops
>rules thus become near-useless chrome.
<snip>

Travel times in the outer system (where there is ice and gasgiants for
lurking/refuelling) is typically on the order of weeks (much more so if
only HEPLAR allowed as in TNE).

SPS had a wonderful strategy game called Battlefleet mMars where a big
battle was fought between various fleets in the solar system. They didn't
use a hex/square map of the system but rather argued that no fleet would
ever meet in transit between planets. Thus if you can make up some
tables/whatever to calculate the triptimes between major bodies your player
simply checks the traveltime to a target, determines ETA and consider that
task force out of combat until arriving.

I'd put in variable tables that reflected the motion of planets but I'm way
to gearheadedish and that would probably only ruin the playability.

Can we see something from your work perhaps?


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 12:01:26 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea

In a message dated 5/11/99 4:02:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
dom@cybergoths.u-net.com writes:

<< applejack.  >>

or there's "mock" applejack for the suburbs: Jack Daniels and apple 
juice...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 08:58:33
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

At 12:03 PM 5/10/99 -0500, you wrote:

> Please don't forget my personal favorite designator; 'Shock' (a la, 6th
Shock Regiment (tank)) - usually a designator given to a unit to honor it
for past glory, especially in assaults; it may also designate an elite
unit, i.e., a 'first down' Drop Infantry unit

Shock would probably be reserved for division-sized or larger units.  It
would designate a unit optimized for the attack.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:13:39
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

At 08:48 PM 5/9/99 -0400, you wrote:

>> This is drawn from my proposal for GT Ground Forces.
>> The Imperial Army (IA) is organized on a subsector level.  Since each
>> subsector faces different threats, this allows some level of
>>customization based on the local threat.
>
>It also means that some subsectors will have only small numbers of forces,
>especially ones with few worlds or lots of low-pop words.

In cases where a subsector simply cannot raise sufficient forces, troops
from neighboring subsectors will be assigned to the area.  The Army will
create a "defense district" to handle the under populated area.
 
>> The troops for the IA are drawn from the subsector.  Since the IA is
>> relatively small, it can afford to be quite choosy about the recruits it
>> accepts.
>
>Interesting.  Will they accept former service personnel from planetary
>forces (and vice versa)?  

The IA will accept some people with prior service in PDFs, but are leery of
the "bad habits" they bring with them.  On the other hand, PDFs *love*
getting IA veterans, since their level of training and professionalism is
very high.  Many worlds offer commissions to any IA vet who enlists in the
local force.

>You do run the risk of the syndrome of elite forces, siphoning all the best
>troops out of the planetary forces.  This may reduce their effectiveness,
>and will breed lots of animosity between the two.

This effect will be present, but is mitigated by the relatively small size
of the IA, and the presence of elite soldiers who prefer to be in the
planetary force.

>> For purposes of lineage, troops are assigned to a Regiment.  Regiments
>>has no real organizational existence, they simply give history and 
>>tradition to the troops. 

>I hope those regiments are kept together, preferably within the same
>brigade, or they won't do a damn bit of good.  Witness the US Army's
>"regimental" system.  A regiment can have battalions in three different
>divisions and detailers make no particular effort to keep soldiers in the
>same regiment from tour to tour.  Utterly worthless except to give soldiers
>another patch to wear.

Actually, I'd keep the brigades mixed.  A soldier will serve his entire
career in the same regiment, but have battalions of different regiments in
a brigade encourages competition.

Let's say that the 178th Lift Infantry Brigade, part of the IA Lunion,
contains the following major units:

2/23 Lunionese Rifles (Lunion)
1/7 Royal Bluecoats (Strouden)
1/4 Corvair Heights Lancers (Lunion)
2/3 Shieldwall Armor (Composite)
3/213 Field Artillery (Composite)

The battalions will strive to outdo each other, both for unit and home
world pride.  This spirit of competition will translate into better soldiers.


- -- 

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|  111     Embrace Fascism.     111  |
|  |||  The uniforms look cool  |||  |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:27:22 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Oldies, but goodies!

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 05/11/99 at 09:40 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:
> 
> >Captain to new crewmember:
> 
> >"Well, the damn nic in the aft engineering workstation died a month
> >ago, and since it's a 150 year old model, it's been hard to find
> >parts...so we just do everything by hand...I know, I know, it's a
> >pain, and someday we're gonna have to jump on less than 12 hours
> >notice...I'll get _around_ to it, ok? Now go pound on the forward
> >stab'rd ventilation controller, the damn relay's stuck closed again,
> >and if that keeps up it's gonna be like an icebox in the passenger
> >cabins again."
> 
> Bruce, you have it!  Now remember those words when you get to the Mae Lee. ;->

Tbbbbbttttthhhh!!!!!

> 
> Do you remember that post about quirks that came out a month ago?  I think older ships need to develop "interesting quirks" as they age...don't you?  The list needs to be adjusted for differing technologies, but it is an excellent idea.
> 

You know, young man, I'm considering limiting your internet access...you
seem to be picking up all sorts of the wrong ideas....;-P

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:34:20 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 

...
>No, this is Argument.  Abuse is down the hall.

  Hey - some people pay good money for that sort of thing...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:00:36 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Modular Cutter

The CT/MT/TNE Modular Cutter had its best write-up in Journal #5 (1980). Most 
of the modules don't actually have "deckplans" since they have very little in 
the way of decks...

 A list:
  -Fuel Skimmer (all tankage and an external scoop)
  -Passenger Module (four seats per row, central aisle; w/folding seats this 
becomes a Cargo Module)
  -ATV Cradle (catwalk to get to the ATV's door, and a lot of scaffolding and 
winching for the ATV)
  -Weapons Pod (Turret, power, LS for four; self contained and capable of 
being left in orbit for whatever purpose)
  -Zero-G Mining Module (Cutter/Cargo arm, Ore bay, LS for two)
  -Assault Boat Module (16 troops, entrenching guns and bottom and side 
hatches)
  -Pressurized Shelter (long-term LS for eight)

GC

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 10:11:05 PDT
From: "Gary Miles" <garyglennmiles@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Old computer fogeys

Shadow cackled this as he sat in his rocker and wrapped a shawl around his 
shoulders:

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
>
>In mail you write:
>
> > In a message dated 99-05-11 06:21:12 EDT, you write:
> >
> > << Not any more, unless there's some on the old cassette tapes in the
> > garage.
> >  >>
> >
> > I assume that you don't mean the data tapes that people use now en days?
> > -Stephen
>
><curmudgeon mode on>
>In the old days, youngster, the only storage for personal computers was
>paper tape (which required expensive surpulus paper tape readers and
>punches) or cassette tape (as in standard household tape recorders).
>
>300 baud was about standard. About the time floppies started to become
>somewhat affordable (I was glad to pay *only* $150 for a drive!) data
>rates for tapes got somewhat better. Say 1500 baud.
>
>I have a *lot* of old cassette tapes in a box in the bedroom, as well
>as a cassette recorder that's "optimized" for computer use.
>
>You young whiuppersnappers just have no appreciation for things...
>
><curmudgeon mode off>
>
>- --
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>

Okay, this MADE me HAVE to post this.

"When I Was A Boy"
Copyright 1997 by Frank Hayes, Firebird Arts & Music (BMI). No Infringement 
Intended By This Posting

When I was a boy our Nintendo
Was carved from an old Apple tree
And we used garden hose to connect it
To our steam-powered color tv.

But it still beat that ancient Atari
'Cuz I almost went blind, don'tcha know,
Playing Breakout and Pong on a video game
Hooked up to the radio.

And we walked twenty miles to the schoolhouse
Barefoot, uphill both ways,
Throught blizzards in summer and winter
Back in the good old days.
Back when Fortran was not even Three-tran
And the PC was only a toy
And we did our computing by gaslight
When I was a boy.

When I was a boy all our networks
Were for hauling in fish from the sea--
Our bawd rate was eight bits an hour (and she was worth it!),
And our IP address was just 3.

And you kids who complain that the World Wide Web
Is too slow oughtta cut out your bitchin',
'Cuz when I was a boy every packet
Was delivered by carrier pidgeon.

And we walked twenty miles to the schoolhouse
Barefoot, uphill both ways,
Through blizzards in summer and winter
Back in the good old days.
Back when Fortran was not even Two-tran
And the mainframe was only a toy
And we did our computing by torchlight
When I was a boy.

When I was a boy our IS shop
Built relational tables from wood,
And we wrappered our data in oilcloth
To preserve it the best that we could.

And we carried our bits in a bucket,
And our mainframe weighed 900 tons,
And we programmed in ones and in zeroes,
And sometimes we ran out of ones.

And we walked twenty miles to the schoolhouse
Barefoot, uphill both ways,
Through blizzards in summer and winter
Back in the good old days.
Back when Fortran was not even One-tran
And the abacus? Only a toy!
And we did our computing in primordial darkness
When I was a boy.


Back to your regularly scheduled list...
Gary


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 12:20:49 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

> _Star Viking_, btw, is a lovely little game. Raiders from beyond the outer
> rim attack the border province of a weakening galactic federation.
> Defenders get to try and stop the Vikings with everything from federation
> frigates to hordes of guys with pointy sticks. Very Travelleresque,
> especially the space piratish theme. ;-)

Sounds H. Beam Piper'ish to me ;)


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:29:46 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

>Why a complicated solution when a simple one will fit canon? [...]
>
>I'm am first, last, and always an engineer (At least that is what my SO
>says.)  KISS! is the watch world for engineers.  It mean 'Keep It Simple
>Stupid'.  Why, because in many cases the simplest solution that meets the
>requirements is the best and most servicable with the least unwanted side
>effects.

Charles, do you use psionics in your Traveller games? If so, then the KISS
explanation for Virus seems (to me) to be the psionic one. Virus is a
psionic phenomena, a power developed in the lab in Cyberlime chips that
enables infected systems to have all of the powers ascribed to them in TNE.
A form of Computer Empathy, Domination, and Psychokinesis (allowing it to
propagate by physically changing the nature of the systems it infects).

Player: "How does Virus do *that*?"
Referee: "It's f***ing magic." ;-)

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:48:30 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: OT: :Gamma World

Whoops!  My bad.  Thank you for correcting me :)

Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Smart, David J
> (David)
> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 7:40 AM
> To: 'traveller@mpgn.com'
> Subject: RE: OT: :Gamma World
> 
> 
> Jesse DeGraff posted:
> >
> >To quote a famous Pace Picante Sauce commercial here in the States:
> >
> >"Get a rope."
> >
> >Jesse
> >:)
> 
> 
> Nope, it's "_Git_ a rope".
> 
> Whut's wrang wichoo? Can't y'all spik riot?
> 
> David Smart
> Dallas, TX
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 21:57:48 +0300
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi>
Subject: Re: Modular Cutter

- ----------
> From: GypsyComet@aol.com
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Modular Cutter
> Date: 12. toukokuuta 1999 20:00
> 
> The CT/MT/TNE Modular Cutter had its best write-up in Journal #5 (1980).
Most 
> of the modules don't actually have "deckplans" since they have very
little in 
> the way of decks...
> 
>  A list:
>   -Fuel Skimmer (all tankage and an external scoop)
>   -Passenger Module (four seats per row, central aisle; w/folding seats
this 
> becomes a Cargo Module)
>   -ATV Cradle (catwalk to get to the ATV's door, and a lot of scaffolding
and 
> winching for the ATV)
>   -Weapons Pod (Turret, power, LS for four; self contained and capable of

> being left in orbit for whatever purpose)
>   -Zero-G Mining Module (Cutter/Cargo arm, Ore bay, LS for two)
>   -Assault Boat Module (16 troops, entrenching guns and bottom and side 
> hatches)
>   -Pressurized Shelter (long-term LS for eight)

What is the arrangement of the living spaces?

> 
> GC

How is the quarters module arranged? Are there horizontal floors? Or is it
dividede to 5 or 6 sections with the outer hull as floor?
How are the modules connected? Are ther airlocksa at both ends? One end? In
the ends and the middle? At which positions can they be connected?

I'm making an adventure that will have a research base constructed of
modules, and also a ships that is specially designed for haulig enough
modules for a portable base.

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 14:57:20 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: 3I Raising Military Forces

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually, I'd keep the brigades mixed.  A soldier will serve his entire
career in the same regiment, but have battalions of different regiments in
a brigade encourages competition.

Let's say that the 178th Lift Infantry Brigade, part of the IA Lunion,
contains the following major units:

<snip description of a mixed brigade>

The battalions will strive to outdo each other, both for unit and home
world pride.  This spirit of competition will translate into better soldiers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
While Battalion pride will (hopefully) come into play, the communications
limits of the Traveller universe will remove the absent parts of the regiment
from a soldier's military experience. The 29th Regina Regiment will
be the people he trained with a couple years ago and a name on his
pay stub.

A continually shifting upper command structure will simply concentrate
his loyalty on the highest command figure that doesn't change
frequently - probably his battalion command. Not that this is 
necessarily a bad thing, but I just don't see a putting much faith or
tradition in something he's told is a unit, but never sees as a unit.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:27:10 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

To those who asked for a peek at the work in progress, I have my 
incomplete draft at http://hartwick.edu/~smithw/fleet_ops.htm .
(There's an underscore between fleet and ops).

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
IF there is only one real target in the system like one inhabited planet and
no gas giant or it is not defended then one battle would be pretty much it
as your intire fight will be in or near the 100d limit of the target.

If there are multiple targets you get a posible different story.  With
transit times that could be in weeks from distrant GG or belt habitats you
end up with the chance of reinforcements unless the invader splits his
forces to deal with many target separated by great distances.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Worlds under TL9 will tend to have just the mainworld and any gas giants
as viable targets - unless you've performed extended system generation
and some of the other worlds are viable refueling sources. Higher tech
worlds might want to have mining, agricultural and research colonies as
well, but may be stopped by the expense of defending them from raiders.

This harkens back to the piracy discussion and it's idea that the outer
system may be very underdeveloped. Nothing out there to defend, so
no defenders, so it's too dangerous to build anything worth defending...

I wanted to maintain a level of abstraction that would make this a good
"plug-in" for an HG/TCS strategic campaign, and having the in-system
battle resolved in a matter of TCS strategic turns (weeks) seemed to 
indicate the level of abstraction I used. I'm now thinking that a two-tiered 
system map - inner planets vs outer planets, with a week's travel between - 
might be the way to go. This would allow me to keep the detail level right,
the players wouldn't have to close the battle with a little note for each
ship saying how many days (and hours?) it was from it's next encounter.

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Also if you include the posibility that the 'Honking Big Dreadnaught'TM
going boom will damage or distroy other 'near by' ships you can force more
smaller battle because consentration of force could end up counter productive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This hasn't seemed to fit well for me in Traveller space combat. The
ships (except in very special cases) just don't seem to get close enough.

I considered some form of signature problem - a big pile of ships is
easier to detect than the same number of ships widely seperated.
Perhaps thruster plates create some kind of interference pattern at
high outputs when used near other thruster plates, and this pattern
is very obvious on a gravitic sensor? Maybe this interference pattern
even has a  performance degredation effect on the thruster plates 
themselves, like speedboats bouncing in each other's wake.

Now *that's* an interesting idea.

Anders Backman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thus if you can make up some
tables/whatever to calculate the triptimes between major bodies your player
simply checks the traveltime to a target, determines ETA and consider that
task force out of combat until arriving.

I'd put in variable tables that reflected the motion of planets but I'm way
to gearheadedish and that would probably only ruin the playability.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I wanted to avoid the players having to get this detailed for each star
system they fight over. One idea, to maintain the level of abstraction,
would be to produce an idealized star system for the players to fight 
over, and simply remove each planet or other location that doesn't exist
in that particular system. Declare travel times (based on the CT book 
transit time figures) between each major point...but by this point, you're
pretty much playing Book 2 Starship combat. Ouch!

I still have a snag in adapting it well to work within the TCS strategic turn.

Thanks, both of you, for the input. I think my next step is to increase the
detail level (with estimated travel times) and see what the real numbers
are for a "sample" star system. Once I do this, I can look at the more
precise information and try to derive a less-detailed level that provides
appropriate results without the detail load.

Perhaps a specified limit on Fleet Ops turns per TCS turn would also 
be a useful idea, instead of depending on Draws, Mutual Cease-Fire
or Total Victory to end the in-system battle. I'll have to run the transit
time numbers to see what a reasonable number of turns would be - the
useful limit would be, "how many places in the average star system can
the average starship visit in a week?" The answer might be one...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 19:38:27 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 01:29 PM 5/12/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>Why a complicated solution when a simple one will fit canon? [...]
>>
>>I'm am first, last, and always an engineer (At least that is what my SO
>>says.)  KISS! is the watch world for engineers.  It mean 'Keep It Simple
>>Stupid'.  Why, because in many cases the simplest solution that meets the
>>requirements is the best and most servicable with the least unwanted side
>>effects.
>
>Charles, do you use psionics in your Traveller games? If so, then the KISS
>explanation for Virus seems (to me) to be the psionic one. Virus is a
>psionic phenomena, a power developed in the lab in Cyberlime chips that
>enables infected systems to have all of the powers ascribed to them in TNE.
>A form of Computer Empathy, Domination, and Psychokinesis (allowing it to
>propagate by physically changing the nature of the systems it infects).
>
>Player: "How does Virus do *that*?"
>Referee: "It's f***ing magic." ;-)
>
>Ciao,
>
>Joseph R. Dietrich
>yikes@evansville.net
>

Perhaps you should have read a little more of my post, like the part about
logic and consistancy in the traveller universe...but then again this is a
more plausible explaination than some I have read lately.  Pity there is not
a canon reference to psionic ability in the Cyberlime chips.  That would sew
it up pretty neatly but then again there is no canon saying they can't be
psionic either...

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 20:31:47 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: OT: :Gamma World

Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net> wrote:

>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>> To quote a famous Pace Picante Sauce commercial here in the States:
>> "Get a rope."
>> Jesse
>> :)
>> > I wonder what the legal logistics would be for them to do a Traveller
>> > book for Alternity?  Or are we talking sacriledge?  :)
> Got it... Get a tree.

Nooooo! We should burn the heretic... fetch the comfy chair, Cardinal Fang....

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #613
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 12 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 614



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

A House...was Re:   Re: McClellan
Re: Economics of Service Stations 
Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...)
RE: Modular Cutter
Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
RE: OT: :Gamma World
re: Fleet Ops
Fleet Ops plus Logistics
re: Drop Tank Numbers
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Re: Fleet Ops
Re TCS
Re: Modular Cutter
CT: Trading Rules (was Questions )
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 19:38:26 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: A House...was Re:   Re: McClellan

Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:
>In a message dated 5/11/99 4:02:28 PM, you wrote:
><<You're giving me urges to dig out GDW's 'A House Divided' again.
>Which edition do you have? I have the one with the puzzle map, and it really
>annoys me...

2nd Edition with the paper map.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:51:48 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 

> ...
> >No, this is Argument.  Abuse is down the hall.
> 
>   Hey - some people pay good money for that sort of thing...

No kidding.

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:21:32 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...)

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:13:37 -0400
>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>> >"Much easier" is debatable. The Kuiper belt is a looong way out:
>>
>> Buy contemporary standards.  But remember that even a 1G ship
>> has _enormous_ acceleration by contemporary standards.
>
>Kuiper Belts are a *LONG* way out.  We're talking about *billions* of klicks
>here.

Which, at 1G, is only a few weeks.

>I'd see the Kuiper Belts and Oort Clouds as places for experimental physics
>labs to hang out in.  A nice *FLAT* space to do experiments with FTL physics,
>though a *LONG* way to go if you need a couple pounds of oxy...

Nah, you pull it out of water or silicates.

>> Remember, if you can give it a small fraction of a G of accelation
>> for a week, you can make a major change to its orbit and thrust
>> is pretty cheap in Traveller.  In GT, just one thruster module
>> will give a 1000 ton chunck of ice (over 100 dtons of fule)
>> 0.04 G of accel.  That can
>> give it a 10 km/s change in velocity (more than its orbital
>> velocity) in less than a day.  (which is way overkill)
>
>10 klicks/sec for a couple billion klicks is still a *LONG* flight.

10 klick/sec increasing as it falls in.  Though actually,
since you are going to leave the thruster on there, you might
as well leave them going.  Make it a 10000 ton chunk of
ice and let it keep going, it will handily arrive in less
than a year.

>According to the chart in 'The Traveller Book', which has been fairly
>accurate
>as far as I can tell, going a billion klicks at a constant 1G is about a 7.3
>day trip.  If you're talking delta vees of 10 klick/secs, pack a lunch,
>it's a
>long walk.

What you are missing is that the crew doesn't go with it.  They
send it along unmanned.  The ship takes a week or two to fly
out to the belt and collects objects, puts little thruster
packs on them, and starts sending them in on predetermined
tragectories.  Year start up time is hardly an insurmountable
task for a business (or even that rare).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:29:53 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Modular Cutter

I think (hope) that all of those questions will be answered when the Cutter
Sourcebook for G:T comes out.  BTW, I should be doing alot of artwork for
that as well.

Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Jussi K. Kenkkil
> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 11:58 AM
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Modular Cutter
>
>
>
>
> ----------
> > From: GypsyComet@aol.com
> > To: traveller@mpgn.com
> > Subject: Modular Cutter
> > Date: 12. toukokuuta 1999 20:00
> >
> > The CT/MT/TNE Modular Cutter had its best write-up in Journal #5 (1980).
> Most
> > of the modules don't actually have "deckplans" since they have very
> little in
> > the way of decks...
> >
> >  A list:
> >   -Fuel Skimmer (all tankage and an external scoop)
> >   -Passenger Module (four seats per row, central aisle; w/folding seats
> this
> > becomes a Cargo Module)
> >   -ATV Cradle (catwalk to get to the ATV's door, and a lot of
> scaffolding
> and
> > winching for the ATV)
> >   -Weapons Pod (Turret, power, LS for four; self contained and
> capable of
>
> > being left in orbit for whatever purpose)
> >   -Zero-G Mining Module (Cutter/Cargo arm, Ore bay, LS for two)
> >   -Assault Boat Module (16 troops, entrenching guns and bottom and side
> > hatches)
> >   -Pressurized Shelter (long-term LS for eight)
>
> What is the arrangement of the living spaces?
>
> >
> > GC
>
> How is the quarters module arranged? Are there horizontal floors? Or is it
> dividede to 5 or 6 sections with the outer hull as floor?
> How are the modules connected? Are ther airlocksa at both ends?
> One end? In
> the ends and the middle? At which positions can they be connected?
>
> I'm making an adventure that will have a research base constructed of
> modules, and also a ships that is specially designed for haulig enough
> modules for a portable base.
>
> -J2K
>
> "Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 16:10:29 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Very well said.  Excelent retoric.  Touche!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Why thank you. :-)

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I am perfectly aware that you can discuss the ramifications of nearly any
suposition.  It is however rediculious for me to spend time pointing out all
the non canon side effect of the technological solutions that have been
proposed.  One technology does not exist in a vacume.  A radical advance in one area will have great impacts in others.  It is non canon side effect
that I am trying to avoid.  The technology that would be required to do some
of what people have proposed would also make other things posible like say
personal forcefields and replicaters and solid-holos.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think you're reading too much into the technology - again, the problem
of agreement on assumptions. I'm postulating an undifferentiated material,
probably a gel, that can be acted upon by certain tools to create 
pathways either similar to circuits or similar to nervous systems (in result,
almost certainly not in appearance or direct physical attributes).
These pathways may even be grown in the media, rather than shaped
or burned - like ice crystals forming on the surface of water.

Perhaps the matrix can change quickly enough to be reconfigured on
the fly, to optimize itself for the particular program mix you have loaded
at any one time. That's more than my original idea, I was thinking of it
configuring itself to your peripherals, operating environment and some
user configurable operational parameters - an operation that could take
hours or days, but would result in a computer fine-tuned to the job it's
intended for.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to take this technology and say it leads to
more than incredibly adaptable computer systems. Solid holos? Personal
force fields? Replicators? Where did those come from?

Your take on this idea requiring mature nanotechnology or the like tells
me you're still seeing a computer as wires and circuit boards, things
that this matrix would need to build and rebuild, rather than a matrix
within which states can change like a computer of today reallocates
memory space.

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>
Why are you adverse to a simple and elegant solution?  Have you read the 
'virus beard' proposal to even see what my side of the argument is?  Why 
must we assume technology not in evidence? Why a complicated solution 
when a simple one will fit canon?
>>>>>>>>>>>>

I read the "virus beard" proposal. No offense, but it sounded like a TL7
computer techie heard about the Virus disaster and tried to figure it out
in TL7 terms - kind of like a farmer on Earth in 100AD retelling a Vilani scoutship's landing as a visitation from Heaven. DOS? Come on now...  ;-) 

I was more interested in your resistance to possible changes in computer 
science, including canon ones such as self-configuration capabilities in 
higher TL computers.

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have found it so enjoyable because of the minimum amount of hand waves 
and 'magic' techology.  Be able to figure out how things are suposed to work 
based on logical extrapolation gives traveller a level of believability and 
consistancy that is lacking in other lesser games.  It is that believability and 
consistance that I wish to preserve.  It you prefer a game that is less so, 
then may I suggest that perhaps it is you who are reading the wrong list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I appreciate the relative consistency in the Traveller universe. The 
departures from the known-to-be-possible are generally well-defined
and (often with hammering from this list) can be made workable.
I wouldn't take this so far as to say that antigrav, jump drive, 2D 
galactic representations, meson technology, spaceborne effective
energy weapons, and drop tanks are the *only* technology allowed that
a 20th century scientist can't build.

Let's say you've just encountered an alien race that has little concept
of "One". All things to them are degrees, rather than absolutes, and 
their computers are built, from theory to practice, on that philosophy.
Can you imagine such a computer? Would it be possible to build? Could
it do things a terran binary logic computer can't? 

What if a TL13+ computer can't be built without the breakthrough
Imperial scientists achieved after analyzing such an alien computer?

Isn't the Traveller universe more interesting if the above is *possible*?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:34:02 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: OT: :Gamma World

ROTFLMAO!!!!
Jesse

> Nooooo! We should burn the heretic... fetch the comfy chair, 
> Cardinal Fang....
> 
> Dom

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 14:27:24 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

>>>> (begin quoted material)
Perhaps a specified limit on Fleet Ops turns per TCS turn would also 
be a useful idea, instead of depending on Draws, Mutual Cease-Fire
or Total Victory to end the in-system battle. I'll have to run the
transit
time numbers to see what a reasonable number of turns would be - the
useful limit would be, "how many places in the average star system can
the average starship visit in a week?" The answer might be one...

Walt Smith
>>>> (end quoted material)
You end up having to ask, "why is this system being fought over?"  If
the answer is  GG fueling opportunities, then that is where you attack
and defend.  For example, a system with a type E starport (a flat area
of bedrock, maybe with some kind of beacon) and a UPP population of 0 or
1 (less than 100 people) will probably never have an enemy fleet try to
invest it.  The enemy fleet would go for the GG for refueling and ignore
the planet.  On the other hand, a system with multiple type A starports
on several bodies in the system, with a system poplulation in the
millions or billions, perhaps Rich or Industrial, with a nich high tech
level, you would need a huge enemy fleet investing each of the places
with starports since new fighting hulls could be produced or jury-rigged
in fairly short order.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 16:24:35 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Fleet Ops plus Logistics

Dom Mooney wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The other issue is to bring lines of supply into the game - penalise ships
far from port, maybe even limit turreted non-magazine missile ships to 3
battery rounds? The defenders need to have some advantage from a system at their back, even if just morale.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You think I would have thought of that, what with me having a Fleet
Logistics variant for High Guard on my web page and all. :-)

( http://hartwick.edu/~smithw/fleetlogistics.htm if anyone's interested)

My logistics variant is based on cruising time, it could be modified to
be based on battles (or even combat rounds). The defender has 
resupply capabilities all over the system, and can probably destroy them
(if necessary) to keep the attacker from using them. Thus the defender
only runs out of ammo in the middle of fights, and only stays out of
ammo until he's got a couple of quiet HG turns at a base or stockpile.
The Intruder only has what he brought with him - in ready racks, cargo
bays and ammunition ships. Yes, ammunition ships - can you say
"targets"?

Perhaps I could modify my logistics rules, have ships required while at
a friendly base to divide their cargo between cruising time and reloads.
Thus a ship could decide to carry only two weeks worth of supplies,
but a whole pile of missiles (and other combat expendables) if it were
attacking the next system over. A deep penetration raider might carry
more supplies and less reloads, even though it was the same class of
starship.

I like this list. It gives me ideas. <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:38:43 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: re: Drop Tank Numbers

Wed, 12 May 1999 09:03:12 -0400, Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Still, you must admit that a starship hull has more elaborate design
>specs than a disposable fuel tank - thus, ton for ton, the starship hull
>will cost more. If you start giving the disposable fuel tank comparable
>capabilites to the starship hull, the disposable fuel tank's cost per ton
>should start to approach that of the starship hull.
>
>For example, let's say you make the disposable fuel tank durable enough
>to last decades or centuries - making it, in effect, re-usable instead of
>disposable. If one tank is designed for one use between refurbishings,
>and another tank is designed to go a year between refurbishings, don't
>you think there will be a price difference between the two?

If the tank is disposable (and the description given for them
says they shouldn't have to be), then yes, it would make sense
not to build them to standards for internal tanks.  This means
they will be _cheaper_.  It also doesn't mean they have to be
unreliable (if they are are built to lower standards becuase
one use doesn't put as much demand on them, then they are
perfectly adequate for their use).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:41:10 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

Walter Smith wrote:
> 
> Let's say you've just encountered an alien race that has little concept
> of "One". All things to them are degrees, rather than absolutes, and
> their computers are built, from theory to practice, on that philosophy.
> Can you imagine such a computer? Would it be possible to build? Could
> it do things a terran binary logic computer can't?

They would be analog computers, yes they can do things that binary
computers don't do well or can't do. The Norden bombsight referred to
earlier in this discussion was an analog computer...so is a slide rule.

Some years ago there was an article in Scientific American about simple
analog computers that solved quite hard problems...and I mean simple:
they were literally built from Tinkertoys!

One, IIRC it was in either the Amateur Scientist or Mathematical
Recreations column, showed an analog computer that solved shortest-path
problems using nothing more than string, rubberbands and wooden pegs on
pegboard.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 16:51:14 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

At 03:36 PM 5/12/99 +0000, you wrote:

>Also if you include the posibility that the 'Honking Big Dreadnaught'TM
>going boom will damage or distroy other 'near by' ships you can force more
>smaller battle because consentration of force could end up counter productive.

I always tended to the Federation and Empire system for battles.  You could
have large fleets, but each fleet had to have a 'flagship' which directed
the action.  A SCS could control up to 10 subordinate ships in its 'fleet'.
 This would keep the fleets smaller, perhaps no more than a squadron could
act as a group, with several groups acting as a fleet.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:32:04 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re TCS

>Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 10:44:51 -0400
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Fleet Ops
>
>I was doing some game theory on my Fleet Ops rules, and I'm running
>into a bit of a snag.
>
>Fleet Ops is my rules set for battles throughout a solar system, btw.
>Instead of the fate of a system being decided in one big battle (as per
>High Guard/Trillion Credit Squadron), I wanted the ability for in-system
>movement - seperate battles for Gas Giants, especially.
>
>The problem I'm seeing is the usual one for starship combat games
>of any scale: why not put your entire fleet in one big pile?
[snip]
>My Fleet Ops rules have a critical flaw - they abstract out time! They
>assume that all the battles for control of the system, no matter how few
>or many, will take place within a single Trillion Credit Squadron
>strategic turn*. Thus, there is no reason for a delaying action at all.
>Players using my Fleet Ops system will simply lump their squadrons
>into one task force and fight it out as per High Guard - the Fleet Ops
>rules thus become near-useless chrome.
>
>The only fix I see for this is to change the level of abstraction - create
>in-system travel times. Even so, an invader should be able to rendezvous
>with almost every important system location within a week. We'd have
>to get the time resolution down to a matter of days, and that's just too
>much detail load for a subsystem for a strategic game.

Looking at TCS, and at Bk6, and at the travel times... essentially, the
inner system is al within a week's travel of it's self; the outer system
(past about 4-6 AU) seems to be that normally, each would be about a week
under thrust from each other and from any given inner system... shorter for
faster, but still a singificant chunk. and since the deep outsystem is, by
TCS, out of reach, it would be nearly impossible to force a major battle
away from a vital spot; the deep outsystem (beyond planetary bodies) is
totally non-vital, huge (remember double the radius, 4 times the area), and
hard to search...

I'd suggest say 2 movements/week... but any inner system battles could be
resolved in a compressed time.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 00:39:17 +0300
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi>
Subject: Re: Modular Cutter

- ----------
> From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: RE: Modular Cutter
> Date: 12. toukokuuta 1999 23:29
> 
> I think (hope) that all of those questions will be answered when the
Cutter
> Sourcebook for G:T comes out.  BTW, I should be doing alot of artwork for
> that as well.
> 
> Jesse
> 
A whole sourcebook of cutters? I like that. ;)

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 99 17:22:47 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: CT: Trading Rules (was Questions )

On 05/12/99 at 05:16 AM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> said:

>> Okay, I have some help type questions for everyone.
>> 
>> First off, didn't the LBB's contain some basic rules on speculative cargos?
>> If so,, anyone want to share?

>Yeah, they did.  They were so good that they got rewritten as the
>generic  cargo rules of MT & beyond.  <grin>  

That's MO, too.  To my way of thinking, the CT trade process were
much more entertaining and interesting than the Merchant Prince/MT
rules that followed them.  There were problems that needed GM
intervention, but overall I liked them *much* better.

>Under the old rules, with some decent skillage, I could usually pay
>off just about any ship in the book, starting with a 125KCr stake,
>in under 3 years.  <grin>

Yeah, that was one of the problems. <grin>

It wasn't hard to find a "milk-run" that always produced large (too
large) profits each way.  You address that in several ways, have
supply and demand decrease as more and more of the item is shipped
and introduce competetion attracted to the large profits possible on
the run.  I think GT:FT takes both of these approaches into account.

Eris
AKU GM
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:49:45 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

At 04:10 PM 5/12/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Very well said.  Excelent retoric.  Touche!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Why thank you. :-)
>
>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I am perfectly aware that you can discuss the ramifications of nearly any
>suposition.  It is however rediculious for me to spend time pointing out all
>the non canon side effect of the technological solutions that have been
>proposed.  One technology does not exist in a vacume.  A radical advance in
one area will have great impacts in others.  It is non canon side effect
>that I am trying to avoid.  The technology that would be required to do some
>of what people have proposed would also make other things posible like say
>personal forcefields and replicaters and solid-holos.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I think you're reading too much into the technology - again, the problem
>of agreement on assumptions. I'm postulating an undifferentiated material,
>probably a gel, that can be acted upon by certain tools to create 
>pathways either similar to circuits or similar to nervous systems (in result,
>almost certainly not in appearance or direct physical attributes).
>These pathways may even be grown in the media, rather than shaped
>or burned - like ice crystals forming on the surface of water.
>
>Perhaps the matrix can change quickly enough to be reconfigured on
>the fly, to optimize itself for the particular program mix you have loaded
>at any one time. That's more than my original idea, I was thinking of it
>configuring itself to your peripherals, operating environment and some
>user configurable operational parameters - an operation that could take
>hours or days, but would result in a computer fine-tuned to the job it's
>intended for.
>
>I think it's a bit of a stretch to take this technology and say it leads to
>more than incredibly adaptable computer systems. Solid holos? Personal
>force fields? Replicators? Where did those come from?
>
>Your take on this idea requiring mature nanotechnology or the like tells
>me you're still seeing a computer as wires and circuit boards, things
>that this matrix would need to build and rebuild, rather than a matrix
>within which states can change like a computer of today reallocates
>memory space.
>

Step one:  Name a chemical or compound that changes it's electical and
physical properties from non solid to solid and non conductor to conductor
on demand or at all for that matter without changing it's chemical composition.

Step two: Develop molecular level control of above substance.

Even then you are limited by the speed of light in a conducter and the
switching speed of your gates.  We are up agaist those walls today.  With
processor becoming more complex with more gates and connections the signals
have to travel farther and the speed of light becomes a limiting facter.
Even operating voltages place limits on such thing as track spacing which in
turn place limits on curcuit spacing and minimum distance a signal must
travel to reach the next logic gate.

>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Why are you adverse to a simple and elegant solution?  Have you read the 
>'virus beard' proposal to even see what my side of the argument is?  Why 
>must we assume technology not in evidence? Why a complicated solution 
>when a simple one will fit canon?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>I read the "virus beard" proposal. No offense, but it sounded like a TL7
>computer techie heard about the Virus disaster and tried to figure it out
>in TL7 terms - kind of like a farmer on Earth in 100AD retelling a Vilani
scoutship's landing as a visitation from Heaven. DOS? Come on now...  ;-) 
>

DOS stands for disk operating system.  It's the basic IO bridge
functionality.  All computers have some version of a 'DOS' if it has any
connections to the real world and this can do usefull work.  It may not be
call DOS but the functionallity is there.  Humans have similer systems like
the visual cortex.  It is not wise to make fun of things you do not
understand.  It reflects badly on you.

Actually it would take a great deal of advancement to allow a sentience to
exist in any computer.  Current systems do not have nearly the power to
support even a rat's mental processes.  Organic minds have a huge amount of
processors.  Perhaps more in one human mind than there are computer
processors on earth.  I do not recall the figures and they have changed over
time anyway.

But I'll reask the question you did not answer.  Why MUST future computer
change beyond all recongition to suit you?

>I was more interested in your resistance to possible changes in computer 
>science, including canon ones such as self-configuration capabilities in 
>higher TL computers.
>

Where in canon is self reconfiguring conputers?  Book and page please.

Anyway reconfigurable computers are here today.  They just do not behave the
way you think they do.  The reconfiguration does not change the basic nature
of there structure it just optomises them.  It will have to remain this way
in the future or you would have no standard to work form to write your
programs.  Programer DO exist in canon.  There are also some ugly trade offs
when you drop the reconfiguration below a curtain level.  You end up with to
much hardware overhead.

>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I have found it so enjoyable because of the minimum amount of hand waves 
>and 'magic' techology.  Be able to figure out how things are suposed to work 
>based on logical extrapolation gives traveller a level of believability and 
>consistancy that is lacking in other lesser games.  It is that
believability and 
>consistance that I wish to preserve.  It you prefer a game that is less so, 
>then may I suggest that perhaps it is you who are reading the wrong list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>I appreciate the relative consistency in the Traveller universe. The 
>departures from the known-to-be-possible are generally well-defined
>and (often with hammering from this list) can be made workable.
>I wouldn't take this so far as to say that antigrav, jump drive, 2D 
>galactic representations, meson technology, spaceborne effective
>energy weapons, and drop tanks are the *only* technology allowed that
>a 20th century scientist can't build.
>
>Let's say you've just encountered an alien race that has little concept
>of "One". All things to them are degrees, rather than absolutes, and 
>their computers are built, from theory to practice, on that philosophy.
>Can you imagine such a computer? Would it be possible to build? Could
>it do things a terran binary logic computer can't? 
>

Again with the suppositions?  Can't we stick a little closer to the real?
Anyway this has been done before.  They had some novel structures but do not
do anything world shaking.  I've built them.  I've repaired them.  They have
been mostly replaced by modern computers for very good reasons.

>What if a TL13+ computer can't be built without the breakthrough
>Imperial scientists achieved after analyzing such an alien computer?
>

And how do you know that we do not have TL13+ computers NOW?  We might have
advanced in computer technology far ahead of other technology.  We curtainly
have made leaps on the orders of magnatude in the past 5 decades.  Far
beyond what was originally believed posible when Traveller was written.  You
are so fond of supposing, please try this supposition.  What if this is
closer to what will be than what you suggest?  

>Isn't the Traveller universe more interesting if the above is *possible*?
>

No, just much less believable and less playable sence the players and GM
have no common reference points.  Tell me how a computer tech. charater
could even being to discribe in character his actions when your 'magic'
computer is so far beyond the players understanding he does not have words
to discibe his actions.

Role playing is then reduced to "I role against my comp-4 skill" instead of
allowing the player the chalendge of trying methods he can name like 'power
on reset', 'disk rebuild', 'boot clean', or 'core dump'.

When a player feels confident in his knowledge of what his character can do
then he can act.  When he has to ask what his character knows about a skill
he has he drops out of character and you loose a little of the feel of the
world you are trying to play in.  When you tell a player that he can't
posibly understand what a TL13+ computer is like and his character has TL15
computer-6 skill you have in effect removed that skill from his character
sheet.  Who's to say a comp-6 could not defeat the virus and get the
computer back on line?  Sure he's not 'inside the computer' but then again
the virus is 'in the box' and that PC has access to some very big hammers
and the main fuse boxes!


Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:49:58 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

At 01:41 PM 5/12/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Walter Smith wrote:
>> 
>> Let's say you've just encountered an alien race that has little concept
>> of "One". All things to them are degrees, rather than absolutes, and
>> their computers are built, from theory to practice, on that philosophy.
>> Can you imagine such a computer? Would it be possible to build? Could
>> it do things a terran binary logic computer can't?
>
>They would be analog computers, yes they can do things that binary
>computers don't do well or can't do. The Norden bombsight referred to
>earlier in this discussion was an analog computer...so is a slide rule.
>
>Some years ago there was an article in Scientific American about simple
>analog computers that solved quite hard problems...and I mean simple:
>they were literally built from Tinkertoys!
>
>One, IIRC it was in either the Amateur Scientist or Mathematical
>Recreations column, showed an analog computer that solved shortest-path
>problems using nothing more than string, rubberbands and wooden pegs on
>pegboard.
>
>

And don't forget the difference engine.  IIRC They finished it and it works.
I've worked with several of these beasties.  Most people do not know it but
there are quite a few of this out there in industry or at least they were.
The problems are implimentation and cost.  They are amazing bits of design
engineering though.

Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #614
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 13 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 615



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CT: Trading Rules (was Questions )
re: 3I Raising Military Forces
re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Re: Fleet Ops
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: CT: Trading Rules (was Questions )
Re: OT: :Gamma World...
Re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Re: Fleet Ops
RE: Modular Cutter
Deck Plans
Re: Islands Clusters
Re: Drop tank numbers
Re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks
Re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks
Re: Drop tank numbers 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
DSR
Re: McClellan

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:53:40 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: CT: Trading Rules (was Questions )

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> It wasn't hard to find a "milk-run" that always produced large (too
> large) profits each way.  You address that in several ways, have
> supply and demand decrease as more and more of the item is shipped
> and introduce competetion attracted to the large profits possible on
> the run. 

Well, Eris, you're forgetting another way to reduce the profits made by
PC's...just never let 'em HAVE the $$@#!$ ship in the first place, and
make 'em spend all their money chasing around the known universe after
it...

it had better be there in one of those holes on the rock... 

<grumble>

>8->

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:52:08
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: re: 3I Raising Military Forces

At 02:57 PM 5/12/99 -0400, you wrote:

>A continually shifting upper command structure will simply concentrate
>his loyalty on the highest command figure that doesn't change
>frequently - probably his battalion command. Not that this is 
>necessarily a bad thing, but I just don't see a putting much faith or
>tradition in something he's told is a unit, but never sees as a unit.

Hmm.. As a veteran of the US army regimental system, I feel that most
soldiers developed enough of a respect for the regiment without having it
shoved in their faces at every turn.

While at Ft. Benning, I served in the 3rd Battalion, 7th Infantry
(Cottonbalers), on e of the oldest units in the Army.  Even though our
first battalion was in Germany, and out second in Texas somewhere, we had
pride in our unit, especially compared to those cream puffs in the 1/29th.

We were told of the exploits of Cottonbalers through the years, had the
origin of the unit nickname repeated endlessly (it goes back the Battle of
New Orleans), and saluted our officers with "Willing and Able, Sir!", our
regimental motto.  I don't think one guy in ten could quote the 197th
Infantry Brigade's motto (Forever Faithful), but we had no trouble
operating inside the system.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:52:23 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: re: 3I Raising Military Forces

> From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
 
> Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> Actually, I'd keep the brigades mixed.  A soldier will serve his entire
[deletion]
> The battalions will strive to outdo each other, both for unit and home
> world pride.  This spirit of competition will translate into better
> soldiers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> While Battalion pride will (hopefully) come into play, the communications
> limits of the Traveller universe will remove the absent parts of the regiment
> from a soldier's military experience. The 29th Regina Regiment will
> be the people he trained with a couple years ago and a name on his
> pay stub.
> 
> A continually shifting upper command structure will simply concentrate
> his loyalty on the highest command figure that doesn't change
> frequently - probably his battalion command. Not that this is 
> necessarily a bad thing, but I just don't see a putting much faith or
> tradition in something he's told is a unit, but never sees as a unit.

No, I think you have it backwards.  The typical Imperial Army unit is
the unattached brigade, so it will be posted with all battalions
together.  Traveller communications and travel limits will then enhance
the experience of being in a certain unit -- the soldier will be stuck
on whatever ball of rock with those other guys until the entire unit is
replaced with some other brigade.  Meanwhile, he can show the Lunionese
just how they drink hard cinnamon jack in Strouden.  

Traveller communication is much like that of the age of sail, and that
is just when many Terran unit traditions were developed -- when units
were posted to forsaken pieces of empires for long periods, to face off
their counterparts from other empires or to hold down the conquered
natives.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:58:14 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

In a message dated 5/12/99 10:55:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU writes:

<< 
 The problem I'm seeing is the usual one for starship combat games
 of any scale: why not put your entire fleet in one big pile? 
 (snip)
 
 The defender can't allow himself to be defeated piecemeal like that, so
 he'll have to commit his entire force to one big defensive task force
 and intercept the invader. His only other option is to send for help,
 scatter and delay.
  >>

	The difficulty for the defender, and the rationale for defending 
various points in the system is that perhaps some points of the system 
contain valueable assets that he cannot afford to allow commerce raiders or 
Vargr or pirates to attack undefended.
	If he has a valueable research station on one asteroid, a mining 
colony on a moon and a large inhabited deep space station, he can't simply 
abandon these assets when an enemy fleet of indeterminate size appears.  Once 
he can count enemy ships, its too late and he must flee or fight at each 
"zone".  
	
		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 00:14:25 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 12 May 1999 07:41
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation


>>From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
>>Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation
>...
>>The Mary Rose is the only 16th century warship on display anywhere
in
>>the world. Built between 1509 and 1511, she was one of the first
ships
>>able to fire a broadside, and was a firm favourite of King Henry
VIII.
>>After a long and successful career, she sank accidentally during an
>>engagement with the French fleet in 1545. Her rediscovery and
raising
>>were seminal events in the history of nautical archaeology.
>
>  ISTR something about limited freeboard and low, open gunports in a
turn?
>


There was plenty of freeboard, but the gunports were definitely one of
the primary entry points for the water (as also in the case of the
Vasa, the Swedish flagship of about the same period, which was
refloated almost completely intact several years ago.

more from the www.maryrose.org ......

<quote>

[re 1545 campaign]...About this time, disaster struck the English
fleet. Following the Henry Grace a Deiu out of the anchorage was the
seven hundred ton Mary Rose, the flagship of the Vice Admiral Carew
and after the Great Harry, the most powerful ship in the English
fleet. Suddenly, after she had fired one broadside and was beginning a
turn to bring her other broadside into play, she heeled over, her open
gun ports admitted water and she capsized in full view of the king,
his court, and Carew's wife. It is known that the ship was overloaded
by the embarking of extra soldiers, [This was probably not the case,
the account relating to the ship carrying 700 men is not a
contemporary document, and the Imperial Ambassador states that the
ship was carrying 500 men, much nearer her normal complement...
S.M.Vine] but it is not clear what actually caused the ship to
capsize. She may have been mishandled, or a sudden gust of wind might
have tipped her over long enough for her load to fatally shift.

</quote>

regards

Matt

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
visit my web site =>      www.akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 99 18:24:53 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: CT: Trading Rules (was Questions )

On 05/12/99 at 03:53 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:

>Eris Reddoch wrote:
>> 
>> It wasn't hard to find a "milk-run" that always produced large (too
>> large) profits each way.  You address that in several ways, have
>> supply and demand decrease as more and more of the item is shipped
>> and introduce competition attracted to the large profits possible on
>> the run. 

>Well, Eris, you're forgetting another way to reduce the profits made
>by PC's...just never let 'em HAVE the $$@#!$ ship in the first place,
>and make 'em spend all their money chasing around the known universe
>after it...

>it had better be there in one of those holes on the rock... 

><grumble>

This is from my Akus Moby PBEM...

After a long trip (almost 2 years real time) the "heirs" are closing
in on where they think their inheritance, an exploratory trader, is
located, a small asteroid in the Mark system called S-18.  It's not
showing up on the sensors, but a 20 ton ship's boat is.

The boat is on the asteroid, but it appears dead.  No power
signature at all.  How did it get there?  Could it have been left
behind when...oh NO!  The players are beginning to realize that
others might have beaten them to the asteroid and made off with the
ship.

Where did the two former crewmen that "went prospecting" weeks ago
*really* go?  Did the loanshark and racketeer, Pele "Pickax" Hiika
really leave the system on the _Foolya Four_ or go looking for the
ship?  Is Mazie a nice old lady or a cold blooded killer with
designs on the missing ship?  Is that ship lurking in the area whose
transponder says it is the HMS Ming, really a patrol boat...or
something else.  The Zeristu Empire claims the missing ship was
stolen from one of their corporations, are they going to abide by
the court's decision or try to "take their property back?"  

Is the ship here?  Was it *ever* here?  If not, where *is* it?  Our
heroes are now only 4 minutes from the asteroid, soon they will
know!

And now the *BIG* question, will it take another month of gametime
for them to play out these four minutes?  ;->


Eris
AKUS GM

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:29:16 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: OT: :Gamma World...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, 12 May 1999 12:25
Subject: Re: OT: :Gamma World


>
>I only mentioned it because IMHO Traveller, Gamma World and AD&D are the
>very best games for their respective genres.  However, this Alternity
>thing is really getting crammed down our throats.  The addition of a
>Gamma World setting is merely a weak handwave at the crew on the Gamma
>world Emailing list to jump on the wagon.
>

A reasonably good point... the handwave welcome thing.  As a company, it is
something they "have" to do in order to stay afloat (WotC/TSR) -- bring out
new products on a regular basis.  This is where I feel TSR died; they
brought out the new products (several each month!), but the quality
(content, presentation was still good, content was rubbish) just wasn't
there.

My former gaming group as a whole virtually stopped buying TSR's AD&D
products altogether.  Many have resumed since WotC bought TSR out however as
the quality did seem to improve.  I hope they are not going to make the same
mistakes...?

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 20:41:29 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: 3I Raising Military Forces

In a message dated 5/12/99 6:58:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< >A continually shifting upper command structure will simply concentrate
 >his loyalty on the highest command figure that doesn't change
 >frequently - probably his battalion command. Not that this is 
 >necessarily a bad thing, but I just don't see a putting much faith or
 >tradition in something he's told is a unit, but never sees as a unit.
 
 Hmm.. As a veteran of the US army regimental system, I feel that most
 soldiers developed enough of a respect for the regiment without having it
 shoved in their faces at every turn.
 
 While at Ft. Benning, I served in the 3rd Battalion, 7th Infantry
 (Cottonbalers), on e of the oldest units in the Army.  Even though our
 first battalion was in Germany, and out second in Texas somewhere, we had
 pride in our unit, especially compared to those cream puffs in the 1/29th.
 
 We were told of the exploits of Cottonbalers through the years, had the
 origin of the unit nickname repeated endlessly (it goes back the Battle of
 New Orleans), and saluted our officers with "Willing and Able, Sir!", our
 regimental motto.  I don't think one guy in ten could quote the 197th
 Infantry Brigade's motto (Forever Faithful), but we had no trouble
 operating inside the system.
 
 -- 
 
 Doug Berry >>

I agree with Mr. Berry, I too am a veteran (actually a retiree) of the U.S. 
Regimental system, in my case it was the 327th Infantry of the 101st Airborne 
Division (Air Assault). I too believe that soldiers enjoy having a special 
relationship with a regiment and not some transient officer or nco that 
happens to occupy a billet for a short time. There is loyalty to squad and 
platoon, sometimes company, to a weaker extent the battalion....but there is 
nothing comparable to the pride in your regiment. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:52:22 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

>You go to an enemy system, you put all your fleet in one big task force.
>Unless the defender has a massive numerical superiority, you defeat
>every seperate point in the system he's trying to defend - five or ten
>little battles instead of one big one.
Certainly the attacker probably can do this


>The defender can't allow himself to be defeated piecemeal like that, so
>he'll have to commit his entire force to one big defensive task force
>and intercept the invader. His only other option is to send for help,
>scatter and delay.
The defender has a much tougher job. He can't concentrate his entire fleet,
unfortunately, since he has to defend against a wide range of attackers -
you have to defend each high-value target againt, for example, raiding forces,
or small attacking forces.

(A classic problem of game scenario design is the tendency to consider
only the case where forces are balanced...not the "how much damage can I
do even though outnumbered five to one" case. Battle Rider actually does
better than most with its random scenario generator.)

The defending forces do have some options - if they have good maneuver
capability the outlying forces if massively outnumbered can concentrate
at the mainworld - but their job is, overall, pretty tough.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:54:01 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Modular Cutter

>I think (hope) that all of those questions will be answered when the Cutter
>Sourcebook for G:T comes out.  BTW, I should be doing alot of artwork for
>that as well.

You're making that, up, right?

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:44:53 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Deck Plans

Have any official (As in GDW, not DGP stuff...) deck plans ever been
published for any of the following ships:

Chrysanthemum class Destroyer Escort 
Midu Agashaam class Destroyer
Gionetti class Light Cruiser
Atlantic class Heavy Cruiser
Skimkish class Light Carrier
Antiama class Fleet Carrier
Tigress class Dreadnought
Plankwell class Dreadnought

Also, have any details been published for the (40dton?) heavy fighters that
the Tigress and Antiama carry?

Thanks,



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- -- 
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 19:57:15 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Islands Clusters

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel... 
...
>>   FWIW, there are three such systems in the Islands Cluster; one - Achille -
>> has _no_ refuelling capacity at all (the other two have inherent capacity of
>> the starport, which may represent providing comet/rock based assets or merely
>> non-dipping available liguid resources on the mainworld).
>
>I don't happen to have a copy of TCS around, so I have zero information on
the Islands Clusters.

  It's a mere factoid at best, and replaced by TNE's RSB in any case. I assume
that a number of similar cases arise in the Marches under various editions. A
ref could provide some character to such systems by figuring out what their
specific source of L-Hyd is - possibly including tanking it in.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 19:57:23 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop tank numbers

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Drop tank numbers 
...
>>   FWIW, IYTU the "free-enterprise" 3I is built around trade that is both
>> ruthlessly policed _and_ heavily subsidized, and you as ref neither know
>> nor care by whom?
>
>More like 'cutthroat competition'.

  And no competition occurs in offering faster services, or more efficient
services?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 20:44:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: 3I Raising Military Forces

On Wed, 12 May 1999 SciFiFan56@aol.com wrote:

> I agree with Mr. Berry, I too am a veteran (actually a retiree) of the U.S. 
> Regimental system, in my case it was the 327th Infantry of the 101st Airborne 
> Division (Air Assault). I too believe that soldiers enjoy having a special 
> relationship with a regiment and not some transient officer or nco that 
> happens to occupy a billet for a short time. There is loyalty to squad and 
> platoon, sometimes company, to a weaker extent the battalion....but there is 
> nothing comparable to the pride in your regiment. 

I don't know about anyone else, but I would very much appreciate it if you
could discuss the various levels of regiment, division, battalion, etc, in
how they relate to one another, what sizes they might be, etc. What is the
level that the typical soldier considers to be "my unit"? I also wonder
how these units get their numerical designations and names - does the
existence of the 101st imply the existence of the 1st through 100th? Are
certain numbers traditionally associated with certain types of units?

Any light you could throw on this stuff would help me in creating a more
realistic TU and character backgrounds.

Brannon

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 00:16:40 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks

In a message dated 99-05-12 09:59:05 EDT, you write:

<< <First-time, 12 year-old GM> (Reads description of next room from
 published dungeon-crawl)  "You hear an alcove."
 
 At which point, the players all collapsed to the floor laughing. >>

What would it have been?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 99 23:28:54 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks

On 05/13/99 at 12:16 AM,  SRKOALA@aol.com said:

>In a message dated 99-05-12 09:59:05 EDT, you write:

><< <First-time, 12 year-old GM> (Reads description of next room from
> published dungeon-crawl)  "You hear an alcove."
> 
> At which point, the players all collapsed to the floor laughing. >>

>What would it have been?

A Gazebo!

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 21:20:32 +0000
From: Bradley Houston <brhoust@juno.com>
Subject: Re: 3I Raising Military Forces

On Wed, 12 May 1999 15:52:08 "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
writes:
>At 02:57 PM 5/12/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>A continually shifting upper command structure will simply 
>concentrate
>>his loyalty on the highest command figure that doesn't change
>>frequently - probably his battalion command. Not that this is 
>>necessarily a bad thing, but I just don't see a putting much faith 
>or
>>tradition in something he's told is a unit, but never sees as a 
>unit.
>
>Hmm.. As a veteran of the US army regimental system, I feel that most
>soldiers developed enough of a respect for the regiment without having 
>it
>shoved in their faces at every turn.
>
>While at Ft. Benning, I served in the 3rd Battalion, 7th Infantry
>(Cottonbalers), on e of the oldest units in the Army.  Even though 
>our
>first battalion was in Germany, and out second in Texas somewhere, we 
>had
>pride in our unit, especially compared to those cream puffs in the 
>1/29th.
>
>We were told of the exploits of Cottonbalers through the years, had 
>the
>origin of the unit nickname repeated endlessly (it goes back the 
>Battle of
>New Orleans), and saluted our officers with "Willing and Able, Sir!", 
>our
>regimental motto.  I don't think one guy in ten could quote the 197th
>Infantry Brigade's motto (Forever Faithful), but we had no trouble
>operating inside the system.
>
>-- 
>

Although that is the standard form "Regiments" take in the modern army, I
had a somewhat different experience.   I was with the 3rd Armored Cavalry
Regiment (Brave Rifles).  The entire regiment served together (1/3 2/3
3/3 4/3)  We definitely had unit cohesion, knew unit history and had our
"Thunder and Steel, Sir" motto.  Not only that, but ACRs are designed to
be assigned to different units for each operation and include their own
support train.  They train and plan to work for different "higher
headquarters" for each operation.  This would seem to be necessary if
different units were going to be equipped by worlds with different tech
levels.  Nor did we have any problem operating inside the system (except
for one VERY embarrassing incident involving the 3rd Armored Division in
Iraq)

Bradley

BrHoust@Juno.Com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 21:44:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks

On Wed, 12 May 1999, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> ><< <First-time, 12 year-old GM> (Reads description of next room from
> > published dungeon-crawl)  "You hear an alcove."
> > 
> > At which point, the players all collapsed to the floor laughing. >>
> 
> >What would it have been?
> 
> A Gazebo!

SPLORT!!!  BWAAAAAA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!

Brannon

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 01:05:54 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop tank numbers 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Drop tank numbers 
> ...
> >>   FWIW, IYTU the "free-enterprise" 3I is built around trade that is both
> >> ruthlessly policed _and_ heavily subsidized, and you as ref neither know
> >> nor care by whom?
> >
> >More like 'cutthroat competition'.
> 
>   And no competition occurs in offering faster services, or more efficient
> services?

This helps keep the prices down.

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:15:32 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
...
>>   To quote todays column by big business' favourite poster-boy in B.C.:
>>    "You don't have to be a commerce major to appreciate that when businesses
>> find costs going up, they raise their prices, provided the market can
stand it."
>
>And competition will drive them right back down again.  Why you think the gov 
>gets rilly rilly weird when they start thinking you got a monopoly on 
>something?

  In theory competition will return _profits_ back to "normal"; was there a 
particular fixed level you feel would naturally apply to OTU shipping prices?

  If the cheapest possible L-Hyd in a system will add Cr 50 to each Dt of load
moving through at J3 then the price of all such shipping will _very strongly_
tend to increase so that net profit of the shippers is unaffected.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 01:26:06 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: DSR

I got the DSR from the Missouri archive, but this version didn't
include any information on detecting astronomical bodies. 
Has this been developed, and if so, where could I find it?
  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 01:26:12 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: McClellan

... McClellan should have been made chief of staff of the US
>army, under an aggresive general like Hancock or Reynolds, or
>Kearney, or Reno early on, and certainly he would have been kept
>by Grant when he came east (Grant would have appreciated
>McClellan's organizational skills). He was charismatic and
>beloved by the troops. He was however, VERY egocentric.

Which made him a poor subordinate as it was. No one appreciated
Grant until he had a string of victories out west, and some not
even then.  Grant seems to have done his best work with the
assistance of Sherman, another fighting general.

>I also doubt that Lee considered him [McClellan] his best
>opponent.

I seem to recall that Lee expressed this opinion in a postwar
interview. McClellan was arguably the best the AotP had until
Grant came along. As as you mention, Grant's battlefield tactics
against Lee were not especially impressive. Lee, a tactical
wizard himself, would not have found much to admire in mere 
persistence and material superiority.  After Gettysburg, the ANV 
was in worse shape than the AotP, and he fought Grant to a standstill with
it. 

>Lee was fixated on defending Virginia to the detriment of the
>rest of the Confederacy. 

IIRC, Lee was never particularly enthusiastic about the Confederate cause.
His motive in choosing the Confederacy over the Union in the first place
was the defense of his home state. 

 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #615
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 13 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 616



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...)
re: Drop Tank Numbers
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Economics of Service Stations 
Re: one minor comment on Virus
Re: Fleet Ops
Re: Fleet Ops
XT-21 Blockade Runner
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: OT: :Gamma World...
Re: Price of Freight
Re: Drop Tank Numbers 
Re: Economics of Service Stations 
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Re: Price of Freight
Re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Islands Clusters 
Re: Old Computer Fogey was Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: DSR
Re: Fleet Ops
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks
Re: Old Computer Fogey was Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Cyberline Chips

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:25:04 +0000
From: Bradley Houston <brhoust@juno.com>
Subject: Re: 3I Raising Military Forces

On Wed, 12 May 1999 20:44:05 -0700 (PDT) "Brannon W. Boren"
<brannonb@animal.blarg.net> writes:
>On Wed, 12 May 1999 SciFiFan56@aol.com wrote:
>
>> I agree with Mr. Berry, I too am a veteran (actually a retiree) of 
>the U.S. 
>> Regimental system, in my case it was the 327th Infantry of the 101st 
>Airborne 
>> Division (Air Assault). I too believe that soldiers enjoy having a 
>special 
>> relationship with a regiment and not some transient officer or nco 
>that 
>> happens to occupy a billet for a short time. There is loyalty to 
>squad and 
>> platoon, sometimes company, to a weaker extent the battalion....but 
>there is 
>> nothing comparable to the pride in your regiment. 
>
>I don't know about anyone else, but I would very much appreciate it if 
>you
>could discuss the various levels of regiment, division, battalion, 
>etc, in
>how they relate to one another, what sizes they might be, etc. What is 
>the
>level that the typical soldier considers to be "my unit"? I also 
>wonder
>how these units get their numerical designations and names - does the
>existence of the 101st imply the existence of the 1st through 100th? 
>Are
>certain numbers traditionally associated with certain types of units?
>
>Any light you could throw on this stuff would help me in creating a 
>more
>realistic TU and character backgrounds.
>

In my unit (3rd ACR) it went something like this (from the top down):

The Regiment had 5 squadrons, plus RHHT (Regimental Headquarters Troop)
1 Squadron of helicopters (Cobras, UH-1s, Blackhawks)
1 support squadron
3 maneuver squadrons (infantry and other people call these battalions) 
;-) 

Each maneuver squadron had 4 "Troops" , 1 "Company", and 1 "Battery"
3 Troops were mixed M1 (Abrams Tanks) and M2/3 (Bradley AFVs)
1 Troops was Headquarters and Headquarters Troops (HHT) 
1 Company was all M1s
1 Battery was self propelled 155s.

The Troops and the Companies were organized along the same lines.  It
started with
Vehicle Crew (4 people)  then
Platoon (4 vehicles) then 
Company (3 platoons of M1s, the CO and XO had an M1 each, plus some minor
support stuff)  
or
Troop (2 platoons of M2/3s, 1 platoon of M1s, plus the CO and XO each had
a vehicle)

I think the Artillery was organized the same way-ie, 4 howitzers to a
platoon.  

All of the support elements were in the Regimental Support squadron

This is somewhat unique- As far as I know only 3 Army units are organized
like this- the 2nd, 3rd, and 11th Armored Cavalry Regiments.  

Although someone else may be able to give a better explanation of this,
as I understand the typical structure within the Army's Regimental system
(from a short trip "outside" the regiment) is the same up to the
Battalion/Squadron level.  from that point, 3 or 4 battalions will be
assigned to a brigade and 2 or 3 brigades to a division.  The "regiment"
is made up of similar units, assigned to different brigades in different
divisions.  The assignments are more or less permanent, which is why,
IMHO, the style of Regiment which the 3rd ACR used would be more
flexible/adaptable for use in the 3I.    For example, I was assigned to
the 1st Battalion (Vulcan/Stinger) of the 62nd ADA Regiment.  The 2nd
Battalion 62nd ADA (2/62 in shorthand) was in Korea, the 3/62 was a
reserve unit somewhere, 4/62 was in Germany and 5/62 was in Texas.  1/62
was assigned to the 25th Infantry Division, and had been for over 20
years.  

As far as numbering, I believe that originally they were numbered in
sequence.  Then, for a very short time they changed to numbering
divisions with the first number indicating a specialty.  They stopped
doing that quickly and as units were disbanded/deactivated following
various wars the numbers got more chaotic.  An example of this is the 1st
Infantry Division (The Big Red One) the 1st Armored Division (Ironsides
- -I think) and 1st Cavalry Divisions, etc... The numbers don't explain the
unit, the acronym after it does, usually.

From my experiences, what the solder considered his unit depended on his
position.  It seemed to extend 2 steps up the chain of command- for
example a driver would consider his unit to be his platoon (step 1-squad
leader, step 2-platoon leader)  and a squad leader (or "Tank Commander")
would consider it to be his company (step 1- platoon leader, step
2-company commander).  This is probably reinforced by the way they were
trained- they were briefed on what they were doing, and how that fit into
the plan for the next larger unit.  This was to insure that if their
immediate superior was rendered ineffective they could continue the
mission. 

Of course, I'm sure other will have different opinions/points of view and
can correct, explain or disagree with what I've said!


Bradley

BrHoust@Juno.Com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 01:26:09 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...)

>>"Much easier" is debatable. The Kuiper belt is a looong way
>>out:

>Buy contemporary standards.  But remember that even a 1G ship
>has _enormous_ acceleration by contemporary standards.

A 1G ship at full thrust takes about 7 days, one way in our
system. The ship can't maintain the same velocity within the
belt, though, since it has to match velocities with the objects
it's moving in. Try sticking a thruster pack on an snowball when
you're speeding past it at 10 km/sec some time. <g> (Kuiper
belters only *think* they're supermen).

>If they have a normal distribution in sizes and based on
>some recent estimates of the amount of mass out there, they
>won't be that hard to find.

A distribution where frequency decreases exponentially with
increasing size is more likely. An apparent "normal" distribution
is probably an artifact due to the increased difficulty of
detecting smaller objects. The density of matter out there
is pretty low: objects worth sending are going to be thousands of km apart
at best.  I checked detectability with the DSR: Objects shouldn't be too
hard to find, but if you have minimal sensors, it's going to take some
work.

>In GT, just one thruster module will give a 1000 ton chunck of
>ice (over 100 >dtons of fule) 0.04 G of accel.  That can
>give it a 10 km/s change in velocity (more than its orbital
>velocity) in less than a day.  (which is way overkill)

A 1000 ton object is going to be around a few meters in diameter.
The several-km sized objects visible from earth with present sensors are a
billion times more massive: good luck pushing those around with a few
thrusters. In the meantime, it still takes on the order of
decades for an unpowered fall into the inner system once you do
nudge your snowball. (Halley's comet takes nearly 40 years from
somewhat closer than the Kuiper belt, IIRC)

 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:31:55 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Drop Tank Numbers

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Drop Tank Numbers
...
>For example, let's say you make the disposable fuel tank durable enough
>to last decades or centuries - making it, in effect, re-usable instead of
>disposable. If one tank is designed for one use between refurbishings,
>and another tank is designed to go a year between refurbishings, don't
>you think there will be a price difference between the two?

  Are you suggesting that a non-disposable L-Hyd tank be allowed if it costs
the same as a hull(/internal tankage) in HG2 - i.e., KCr 50-120 per Dt?

        Steven Hudson

    ** JumpExpressCo - When Too Fast Is Never Enough!(tm) **

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:32:04 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
...
>>   Only the per unit costs matters, obviously; is Cr 15 per Dt truly
significant?
>> FWIW, I would describe it as "dirt-cheap" for the service in question.
>
>It's 15% of the standard rate for unrefined fuel.  You call that dirt cheap?

  Inhabited world surface to orbit is Cr 20 per Dt; the entire system described
for shipping the skimmed L-Hyd from a GG to a fuel station _3 months away_ is
no more than twice that price rate. I suspect that most qualified observers
would
call that dirt cheap, come to think.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:32:16 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 

...
>> >Well, if you follow the HG ruleset, it flat out states that all-drop jump 
>> >tankage is illegal.  Not to mention a *RILLY* bad idea in frontier areas.
...
>> > Per A:5, TCS, p. 12, header: "The following rules clarifications are
presented
>> >to more carefully state some of the concepts of that (HG2) book". Same
section,
>> >p. 13, Fuel Tankage: "jump fuel and additional fuel (i.e. beyond that of the
>> >power plant requirements, which _must_ be permanent internal tankage) may be
>> >carried in one of the additional tankage types outlined below." Drop
tanks are
>> >the last of the four options, and are described in detail on p. 14.
>> >
>> >  (all parenthetical comments are mine)
>
>Toldja I dunno how many times, I don't have TCS laying around here.  Why
you think I asked you if you could clone it for me?

  Sure, but as a direct quote from TCS that you've seen before doesn't it look
a bit strange that you're still calling it "illegal" under CT?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 01:30:45 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

In a message dated 99-05-12 09:46:39 EDT, you write:

<< >What would it do to a neural jack and the persons brains and to I even 
want 
 >to know?
 >-Stephen
 >
 
 They would turn into real AIR-heads and gear-heads.  Those systems were
 pnumatic and clockwork!  And you would really be surprised at all the things
 they could do in the way of process control.  Remember in WW2 the TDCs,
 Nordon bomb sights, and balistic targeting computer on ships were all 
clockwork!
  >>
Wow, I thought that they worked on charts.  At any rate what would the Virus 
do if it infected a computer and then someone linked to it though a neural 
jack?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 01:47:09 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

In a message dated 99-05-12 10:55:35 EDT, you write:

<< You go to an enemy system, you put all your fleet in one big task force.
 Unless the defender has a massive numerical superiority, you defeat
 every seperate point in the system he's trying to defend - five or ten
 little battles instead of one big one.  >>

I think that you are thinking a little small.. You will have to keep part of 
your fleet at home to make shure that they don't attack you and find the door 
open, the need to keep part of your force at home should off set this some.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 01:50:17 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

In a message dated 99-05-12 12:12:20 EDT, you write:

<< SPS had a wonderful strategy game called Battlefleet mMars where a big
 battle was fought between various fleets in the solar system. They didn't
 use a hex/square map of the system but rather argued that no fleet would
 ever meet in transit between planets. Thus if you can make up some
 tables/whatever to calculate the triptimes between major bodies your player
 simply checks the traveltime to a target, determines ETA and consider that
 task force out of combat until arriving. >>

You have a good point, if the sensors are poor, finding something as small as 
a battleship is tough, so most likly in that case the battles will be fought 
at the target.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 01:55:13 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: XT-21 Blockade Runner

Hi,
Some place out on the 'net I found a page with the background of the plans 
for the XT-21 Blockade Runner,  I'm wondering were the stats for it are.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 01:58:46 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In a message dated 99-05-12 14:29:36 EDT, you write:

<< Charles, do you use psionics in your Traveller games? If so, then the KISS
 explanation for Virus seems (to me) to be the psionic one. Virus is a
 psionic phenomena, a power developed in the lab in Cyberlime chips that
 enables infected systems to have all of the powers ascribed to them in TNE.
 A form of Computer Empathy, Domination, and Psychokinesis (allowing it to
 propagate by physically changing the nature of the systems it infects). >>

Are there any limits on the range of psi powers?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:05:01 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: OT: :Gamma World...

>From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
>Subject: Re: OT: :Gamma World...
...
>My former gaming group as a whole virtually stopped buying TSR's AD&D
>products altogether.  Many have resumed since WotC bought TSR out however as
>the quality did seem to improve.  I hope they are not going to make the same
>mistakes...?

  In addition to picking up Far Trader on Sunday I also got a new CoC release
(now there's a thought for Traveller...) - a good 15% cheaper than the typical
TSR/WotC release these days, and an extra 50-100% the size. Of course, I can't
be sure of the page count of new AD&D/Alternity stuff as they're shipped
shrink-wrapped, but then Chaosium puts out material of such quality that
having a customer browse doesn't seem to worry them.

  TSR/WotC seems to have hit on a very special new mistake to make.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:05:10 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Price of Freight

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Price of Freight 
...
>Now, this doesn't mean that it's the *only* rate that can be charged.  IIRC, 
>I've seen Amber Zones where the patron offers double rates, whatever.  I see 
>the 1KCr/ton as the 'lowball bid' due to excessive competition.  Let's face 
>it, if there was only *one* airline, tickets would be about 5 or 6 times what 
>they are now.

  So if KCr 1/Dt _isn't_ the only rate that can be charged for shipping then
the whole "market rate premium for express service" argument is over? That
means that we can get back to what the CT trade system would look like once
drop tanks completed their ascendance.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 02:06:52 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers 

> >From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
> >Subject: re: Drop Tank Numbers
> ...
> >For example, let's say you make the disposable fuel tank durable enough
> >to last decades or centuries - making it, in effect, re-usable instead of
> >disposable. If one tank is designed for one use between refurbishings,
> >and another tank is designed to go a year between refurbishings, don't
> >you think there will be a price difference between the two?
> 
>   Are you suggesting that a non-disposable L-Hyd tank be allowed if it costs
> the same as a hull(/internal tankage) in HG2 - i.e., KCr 50-120 per Dt?

You get the rope, I'll get the lighter fluid.

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 02:07:50 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 

> ...
> >> >Well, if you follow the HG ruleset, it flat out states that all-drop jump 
> >> >tankage is illegal.  Not to mention a *RILLY* bad idea in frontier areas.
> ...
> >> > Per A:5, TCS, p. 12, header: "The following rules clarifications are
> presented
> >> >to more carefully state some of the concepts of that (HG2) book". Same
> section,
> >> >p. 13, Fuel Tankage: "jump fuel and additional fuel (i.e. beyond that of the
> >> >power plant requirements, which _must_ be permanent internal tankage) may be
> >> >carried in one of the additional tankage types outlined below." Drop
> tanks are
> >> >the last of the four options, and are described in detail on p. 14.
> >> >
> >> >  (all parenthetical comments are mine)
> >
> >Toldja I dunno how many times, I don't have TCS laying around here.  Why
> you think I asked you if you could clone it for me?
> 
>   Sure, but as a direct quote from TCS that you've seen before doesn't it look
> a bit strange that you're still calling it "illegal" under CT?
 
Illegal under HG2.  HG predates TCS, remember?

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 02:12:56 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

In a message dated 99-05-12 16:44:07 EDT, you write:

<< One, IIRC it was in either the Amateur Scientist or Mathematical
 Recreations column, showed an analog computer that solved shortest-path
 problems using nothing more than string, rubberbands and wooden pegs on
 pegboard. >>

Any idea which month/year it was?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 01:10:27 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: Price of Freight

I would settle for a nice scan of the CT cargo rules or any cargo rules and
I will abstain from the drop tank discussion.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, May 13, 1999 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: Price of Freight


>>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>>Subject: Re: Price of Freight
>...
>>Now, this doesn't mean that it's the *only* rate that can be charged.
IIRC,
>>I've seen Amber Zones where the patron offers double rates, whatever.  I
see
>>the 1KCr/ton as the 'lowball bid' due to excessive competition.  Let's
face
>>it, if there was only *one* airline, tickets would be about 5 or 6 times
what
>>they are now.
>
>  So if KCr 1/Dt _isn't_ the only rate that can be charged for shipping
then
>the whole "market rate premium for express service" argument is over? That
>means that we can get back to what the CT trade system would look like once
>drop tanks completed their ascendance.
>
>        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:10:58 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: 3I Raising Military Forces

> From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>

> I don't know about anyone else, but I would very much appreciate it if you
> could discuss the various levels of regiment, division, battalion, etc, in
> how they relate to one another, what sizes they might be, etc. What is the
> level that the typical soldier considers to be "my unit"? I also wonder
> how these units get their numerical designations and names - does the
> existence of the 101st imply the existence of the 1st through 100th? Are
> certain numbers traditionally associated with certain types of units?

Mercenary and Striker give good discussions of various units of
soldiers, but they're long out of print.  Here is a list.  Bear in mind
that not every military system uses every unit listed, or doesn't use
them in every situation.

1) Individual soldier
2) Fireteam.  Usually 4 soldiers (per Striker), led by an E2 or E3. 
Almost always joined with another fireteam to make a squad.  I believe
that this level of unit is a recent development in the US military
hierarchy, dating from Vietnam.
3) Squad.  Usually about 10 soldiers, or 2 fireteams, but it could be
larger.  Led by an E4 or higher.
4) Section.  2 squads.  Led by an E4 or higher.
5) Platoon.  3 to 5 squads.  Led by 01 or 02.
6) Company.  2 to 5 platoons.  Led by 03.  (Also sometimes called troop
in cavalry units and battery in artillery units.)
7) Battalion.  2 to 5 companies.  Led by 04 or 05.
8) Regiment.  Size of a regiment varies with doctrine.  Some armies
don't have battalions, and regiments consist of several companies.  In
the 19th Century British army, a regiment had two battalions, one at
home and one posted abroad.  They would alternate every so often. 
Usually led by 06 (Colonel).
9) Brigade.  Again, size varies with doctrine, and some armies don't
have them at all. Usually led by 07 (Brigadier).
10) Division.  Size and composition vary.  Usually led by 08 or higher.  
11) Corps.  A number of divisions, usually 3, led by 08 or higher.  I
think that cavalry corps were called task forces by the US Army during
WW2.  This is often a provisional, temporary unit, assembled for a
specific campaign.
12) Army or Army Group.  A very big unit led by a very high ranking
officer.

I'll leave it to the veterans to answer your question about which unit a
soldier would think of as "his unit."  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 02:22:13 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

In a message dated 99-05-12 18:54:02 EDT, you write:

<< And don't forget the difference engine.  IIRC They finished it and it 
works.
 I've worked with several of these beasties.  Most people do not know it but
 there are quite a few of this out there in industry or at least they were.
 The problems are implimentation and cost.  They are amazing bits of design
 engineering though.
 
 Charles L. >>

What are they?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:28:44 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

>>><< There was also a competition to write a "good" poem that wqas also a
>>> "useful" program when executed
>>
>>>Got any exsamples?
>>
>>Not any more, unless there's some on the old cassette tapes in the garage.
>><grin>
>
>Would those be TRS-80 tapes, Altairs, OSI, or the old black cased apple?

Actually I had a cheap oriental knock-off of a TRS-80, what was marketed as
the Video Genie in the UK and Dick Smith's System 80 over here. Back when a
memory upgrade involved soldering  piggy-backed TTL chip legs and using
"spare" gates on other chips for address decoding.

Also originally had a cassette-based BBC B

>Got any 8 inch disks or reel to reels in there?  I still do.

I had an 8-inch disk drive once, but the only reel-to-reels I had were audio
tapes, on an old Phillips. none of the specialist ones.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 02:33:14 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Islands Clusters 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel... 
> ...
> >>   FWIW, there are three such systems in the Islands Cluster; one - Achille -
> >> has _no_ refuelling capacity at all (the other two have inherent capacity of
> >> the starport, which may represent providing comet/rock based assets or merely
> >> non-dipping available liguid resources on the mainworld).
> >
> >I don't happen to have a copy of TCS around, so I have zero information on
> the Islands Clusters.
> 
>   It's a mere factoid at best, and replaced by TNE's RSB in any case. I assume
> that a number of similar cases arise in the Marches under various editions. A
> ref could provide some character to such systems by figuring out what their
> specific source of L-Hyd is - possibly including tanking it in.

I never got around to getting the RSB.  By the time I knew about it, it was already unavailiable.

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:57:21 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Old Computer Fogey was Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

>><< Not any more, unless there's some on the old cassette tapes in the
garage.
>>I assume that you don't mean the data tapes that people use now en days?

>     The original 5150 IBM PC did not come with a 128 byte 5 1/4" floppy
drive.
>It used audio cassette tapes.  A special cord connected a port on the
>system to a standard cassette player/recorder.

Exactly, though the IBM PC was an under-powered, over-priced lemon when it
came out, my BBC B performed all the standard benchmarks much faster than it
could using a slower 8-bit processor.

>     An old friend who enjoyed composing music for the PC's paper speaker
>even had some of her tunes accessing the cassette as a percussion device.

That's nothing ! <grin>

We used to do voice and waveform synthesis by clicking the cassete motor
relay at the approrpriate frequency !

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 02:01:32 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: DSR

What is the DSR?

Thad Coons wrote:

> I got the DSR from the Missouri archive, but this version didn't
> include any information on detecting astronomical bodies.
> Has this been developed, and if so, where could I find it?
>

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 03:12:51 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

In a message dated 99-05-12 21:55:24 EDT, you write:

<< The defending forces do have some options - if they have good maneuver
 capability the outlying forces if massively outnumbered can concentrate
 at the mainworld - but their job is, overall, pretty tough. >>

That why they need so much training and get the big bucks, or is that becouse 
they might be killed?:)
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 03:15:33 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks

In a message dated 99-05-13 00:34:18 EDT, you write:

<< ><< <First-time, 12 year-old GM> (Reads description of next room from
 > published dungeon-crawl)  "You hear an alcove."
 > 
 > At which point, the players all collapsed to the floor laughing. >>
 
 >What would it have been?
 
 A Gazebo! >>

No dout.  What should it have been, I guess I was thinking about something 
else when I did the email.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 03:20:23 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Old Computer Fogey was Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In a message dated 99-05-13 03:06:52 EDT, you write:

<< That's nothing ! <grin>
 
 We used to do voice and waveform synthesis by clicking the cassete motor
 relay at the approrpriate frequency ! >>

You could do voice synthesis with a motor, got any tips for doing it in BASIC 
or C++?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 03:24:56 -0400
From: Scott Davis <thorinn@mediaone.net>
Subject: Cyberline Chips

The Cymbeline chips concept was discussed in the Virus section of the TNE main book 
on page 75 under Evolution of Virus. This section was referenced as well as Survival Margin 
in the Reformation Coalition Equipment Guide under Anti-Virus equipment as well.

Thorinn

>Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 07:46:43 -0400
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
>
>
>My original point was that while running a TNE campaign a few years back, I
>never came across the concept of the Cymbeline chips as an integral part of
>Virus. To the best of my knowledge, that idea was dropped after Survival
>Margin, as it's not in any of the TNE books I own, and I have almost all of
>them.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #616
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com


Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 13 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 617



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Cyberline Chips
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks
re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Re: Deck Plans
Advanced Spec Trade rules for G:T Far Trader
Re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Re: Deck Plans
Re: 3I raising military forces
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Re: one minor comment on Virus

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 03:24:56 -0400
From: Scott Davis <thorinn@mediaone.net>
Subject: Cyberline Chips

The Cymbeline chips concept was discussed in the Virus section of the TNE main book 
on page 75 under Evolution of Virus. This section was referenced as well as Survival Margin 
in the Reformation Coalition Equipment Guide under Anti-Virus equipment as well.

Thorinn

>Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 07:46:43 -0400
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
>
>
>My original point was that while running a TNE campaign a few years back, I
>never came across the concept of the Cymbeline chips as an integral part of
>Virus. To the best of my knowledge, that idea was dropped after Survival
>Margin, as it's not in any of the TNE books I own, and I have almost all of
>them.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:25:10 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

>>I suspect she may have been <grin>, but she sunk some 300 years or
>>more after she was built.
<snip>
>
>I think your pinkie was a little eager on the 0 key <g>, nearer *30*
>years in actual fact.

OK, so it wasn't the Mary Rose, I thought it was.
( good reference, BTW )

So, can anyone help me out and remember the English sailing ship that did
stay in service for around 300 years ?
Was it perhaps "Le Rose" or one of those other ships from AH's Kingmaker ?

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:28:32 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks

At 14:22 11/05/1999 -0400, Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net> wrote:
>This was related to me as really happening:
>
><D&D Player> "We approach the door and listen at the keyhole.  What do
>we hear?"
>
><First-time, 12 year-old GM> (Reads description of next room from
>published dungeon-crawl)  "You hear an alcove."
>
>At which point, the players all collapsed to the floor laughing.

Reminds me of an experience with a not first time GM in his mid twenties
who should have known better:

We were playing Runequest and had realised that he was only one line
ahead of us in reading the adventure. He decided to add some action
with a random encounter:

	"You encounter..."

	<fx of dice rolling>

	"...a tilled field!"

Unfortunately, his dice rolling was off that session and we randomly
encountered three more tilled fields later on.

He also did the classic GM disaster:

	"You enter the room.
	"There is a dragon hiding behind the curtain.
	"I shouldn't have read out that last bit."

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:32:52 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: re: 3I Raising Military Forces

Date sent:      	Wed, 12 May 1999 15:52:08
From:           	"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

>At 02:57 PM 5/12/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Hmm.. As a veteran of the US army regimental system, I feel that most
>soldiers developed enough of a respect for the regiment without having it
>shoved in their faces at every turn.

When you look at the British Regimental system (arguably the most
successful example, and the one the US copied when they introduced
their Regimental System after Vietnam) the key is that the Regiments
have no operational existance. The Regiments are purely an administrative
construct. The Regiments are recruited territorially (ie all troops in a
Regiment will come from a particular geographic region). The new recruit
will be trained at the Regimental Depot and then posted out to a battalion.
During the last century, individual battalions could be posted out to the far
corners of the Empire for years on end, serve under higher commands;
and still retain their primary attachment to the Regiment. Actually the
situation of the last century is very similar to how things are likely to be in
the 3rd Imperium. Units serve on distant postings for many years, with
communications with the parent unit taking months. The British
Regimental system strikes me as a very good model for the Imperial Army.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 00:34:52 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Deck Plans

Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> wrote


> Have any official deck plans ever been
> published for any of the following ships:
>
> Midu Agashaam class Destroyer
>

TNE's Vampire Fleets included some nice complete deck plans [pg34-37] for "The
Ship" [ex ISS Archer] a somewhat dammaged Midu Agasham class destroyer infected
with strain XA Mother Virus.  it would not be hard to use
these as Imperial era deck plans.

I do not believe any GDW deck plans were ever done of any of the other ships you
mentioned, most of which are bigger than the typical ships GDW did deck plans for.
[The 3000 ton Midu Agasham may well have been the second largest ship (after the
Azhanti High Lightning] that GDW ever did deckplans for.]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:45:19 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Advanced Spec Trade rules for G:T Far Trader

Enhanced Speculative Trade Rules for G:T Far Trader

(c) 1999 Ian Whitchurch. Not to be published without express written
permission. I am willing to transfer these to SJG if they want to print
these in Pyramid etc.


Over-arching concept : GWP vs Trade

Knowing the GWP is nice for figuring things like local standards of living
and defense expenditure. Total trade is more important to determine how
much a world will want to import, or have available to export. I think of
Trade+GWP as a planet's turnover, while GWP is what they have left at the
end of the year after the megacorps, financiers, free traders and other
interstellar slime backed by the Imperium have finished exploiting them.

GWP is explained on G:T FT p14. Total trade can either be computed the long
way (by figuring relationships with every trading world - and Capital has
meaningful trade with just about everybody), or approximated by taking the
top end of the biggest trading partner (eg Pagaton's biggest trade partner
is Dallia, for a 8.5 BTN (MCr 500-GCr 1). Pagaton's total trade is
therefore around 1 GCr). If a world has a couple of equally large partners,
then add them up and add 50%. Generally, if you just look for the closest
big world, you can wing it.

Note the amount of money that can be raised by import and export duties.


Overarching concept : 'Trade Relationships are Social Relationships'

Reputation and Status *always* count to modify appropriate skills. In the
Imperium, it's often not what you know, but who knows you, and how much
they trust you ...


Finding the Goods :

Each world with Trade below 7 will have 1d6 batches of Speculative Goods,
each of maximimum value of 1% of trade. Worlds with trade above 7 will have
2d6 batches of goods, each of maximum value 0.5% of Trade.

Finding the Goods is the same as G:T FT's Speculative Trade rules, except
that you add your Merchant skill/AK(World) and the world's WTN (it's a lot
easier, but you may get gouged by the locals on price). NB if this roll is
failed by more than the world's WTN, *nothing* is available for love or
money for the next (WTN-4) months. All the output is spoken for ...


Defining the Goods :

Roll for Origin Price. Goods are Cheap(KCr10), Shoddy (KCr20), Moderate
(KCr50), Expensive (KCr 100) and Stellar (MCr 1) class.

Origin Price is modified by goods being Poor, Average, Fine or Very Fine
examples of their type. Roll 3 dice, and compare with the table on G:B p45
- - multiply the Origin Price by 2, then by 'Probability of Success' to find
the good's Fair Price. Poor is 3-8, Average is 9-11, Fine is 12-14, Very
Fine is 15+. Record the Fair Price.

Roll for Risk. Goods worth MCr 1/dton have a +7 to risk. KCr 100, +3. KCr
20, -3. KCr 10, -7

Roll 1-4 for Industrial, 5-6 Consumer. A world's demand for Industrial
goods is limited by it's interstellar Trade, while it's demand for Consumer
goods is limited by it's local GWP.

Roll 1-5 for Orthodox, 6 for Heterodox. Orthodox goods sell well on worlds
unlike the source world. Heterodox goods sell well on worlds like the
source world.

Roll for Special Handling. Ag world exports make Corrosive and Radioactive
into Perishable. Mining worlds turn Living into Delicate.

Roll on the world's Export Tables (the below are examples. The appropriate
professional skill is in parenthesis).
	Mining World : Roll 2 dice on the Cargo Type Table, then roll 1-2 for
Metal <Metallurgy>, 3-4 for Non-Metal<Prospecting> and 5-6 for Carbonaceous
<Chemistry>(eg you get a load of Carbonaceous Wet Bulk)
	Ag World : Roll 3 dice on the Cargo Type Table. RO/RO turns into
Container, Break Bulk turns into Dry Bulk. Roll 2 dice 2-3 for
Fibers<Sewing>, 5-6 for Animals (Living is Live Animals, otherwise Meat)
<Animal Handling/Cooking>, 7-8 for Food<Cooking>, 9-10 for Wood
Products<Carpentry>, 11 for Fertiliser <Agronomy>, 12 for Genetic
Material<Biology>. 
	Other : Roll 3 dice on Cargo Type Table. Then roll 3 dice on the
Manufactures Table on G:B p85 (get the skill and what it uses is that goods
type).

Lot size is determined by the Lot Size Table, with a maxima of of World
Trade as described in Finding the Goods (of course, correct planning and
the right leverage could cause a 'production shortfall' ... this is
particularily true at small mining colonies, where a little cash and the
right goods (food, air filters, spare parts, pharmaceuticals) can cause
high grade ore that never appeared on the production schedules to
miraculously appear, ready for loading into a Far Trader that,
coincidentally, never appeared on the records either (this sort of 'theft
as servant' is for my money the most widespread sort of smuggling in the
Imperium)...).

Roll for Trade Class Modifiers.

We now should have something like '9 dtons of Bowman (1132) Carbonaceous
Wet Bulk <Poor Moderate KCr 38>, Orthodox Industrial, Medium Risk,
Explosive' in the GMs records.

Assessing the Goods :

To assess the 'fair price' of the goods, roll against Buyers skill - the
lower of Merchant and either AK(World) or the appropriate professional
skill for the good concerned. 

Professional skills for a good are determined by the skill that makes or
uses that good - Prospecting for mining worlds, Agronomy for Fertiliser,
Cooking for Food, Driving for Ground Vehicles, and so on ad infinitum.

If the Merchant has two of the skills at 12+, they get a +1. If they have
all the skills at 12+, then they get a +3. If they are assisted by another
person with the relevant professional skill at 12+, then they get the plus.

Success gets an assessment of the goods quality band. Success by 3 gets the
exact Fair Price. Critical Success means the seller assumes the goods are
of lower quality than they are - halve the Locals Skill in the Closing the
Deal step.

Closing the Deal :

Now, the players may try and buy it ... roll an opposed contest of skills
between Buyers Skill and Locals Skill.

Locals skill is a base two, plus 2.5x WTN for goods worth less than KCr 30
per dton, 3x WTN for goods worth less than KCr 75 per dton, 3.5x WTN for
goods worth less than KCr 100, 4x WTN for goods worth more than a MCr per
dton. If the GM can automatically see a profitable route, adjust the
locals' skill, according to how profitable the route seems ... they might
be yokels, but they dont have to be stupid. If the world is Amber Zoned,
locals skill is reduced by 3 due to risk premiums. If it is a Red Zone, it
is reduced by 5 die to desperation.

Buyers skill is the lower of Merchant and either AK(World) or the
appropriate professional skill for the good concerned. If the Merchant has
two of the skills at 12+, they get a +1. If they have all the skills at
12+, then they get a +3.

If they are assisted by another person with the relevant professional skill
at 12+, then they get the plus.

To find the Agreed Origin Price, take the Fair Price, assume a roll of 11
on the 'Destination Price Table', modifying the roll by 1 for every point
the PC wins or loses by, and by 1-4 depending on how hazardous shipping the
good is ('Our regular shipper found that he was Held Covered if he shipped
it, so he cancelled. This caused us cash flow difficulties ...').

The players *can* bail on the deal at this point, at risk of getting a bad
Reputation (Unrealiable, Merchants).

The GM then writes up the good, remembering to write in the Actual Price,
and keep the Fair Price secret in their records, and gives it to the
players, ready for entry into the Ships Logs and (perhaps) the Annual Report.

The Players now have their good ... 

Moving the Goods :

Remember any Special Handling that may be needed, and note that the owners
of freight (or their insurers lawyers) may get upset if the Ships Captain
pays more attention to saving her goods than their in an emergency ...
remember the Damage to Cargo rule on G:T FT p71.

Finding a Buyer :

Follow the G:T Spec Trade rules as written.

If working without the assistance of a local broker, making a 'Find Buyer'
roll exactly means the buyer will only deal on 60 day terms - the seller
delivers now, and gets an IOU payable in 60 days.

A Broker may be prepared to act as a Factor and pay the PCs a percentage of
face value on the note (treat the note itself as a Low Risk Speculative
Good with a value of 95% of face value).

If the seller is working with the assistance of a Broker, then always
getting paid in cash is one of the services that makes their fee worthwhile.

Selling the Goods :

Follow the G:T Spec Trade rules as written, except the Destination Price
uses the secret Fair Price, and a world can only spend 5% of it's GWP on a
single batch of Consumer goods. A world can spend 10% of it's Trade on a
single batch of Industrial goods, but Industrial goods dont get Distance
Mods on the Trade Goods Reaction Table (no-one cares how close the air
filters come from, just as long as they work. Brandy, on the other hand ...).

Orthodox goods get a + 0.5 on the Trade Goods Reaction Table for every
Trade Code they do not share with the destination world and a -0.5 for
every Trade Code they do share. Opposite Trade codes get a +/- 1 instead
(Ag is opposite of Non-Ag, Ind is opposite of non-Ind, De is opposite of
Wa, Extreme is opposite of Ri, Lo is opposite of Hi). Heterodox goods
reverse this. This is in addition to any Trade Class Modifiers.

If a trader is prepared to take commodities in exchange, these numbers may
be increased by 50% (GMs option) (the 'We cannot front, but we have many
excellent tractor parts' rule).

Competition, the fly in the ointment :

<nb I am indebted to Paul Mays for this>

As can be noted, highly skilled traders can make a lot of money under these
rules. Two possible consequences may exist.

The first possible concequence is that an established line or even a
megacorp may notice a hotshot Free Trader and either decide that they
should be working for them, or that they should find a new career.
Reluctance to co-operate may be met with an escalating series of sanctions.

The second possibility is that one or more less-skilled Free Traders may
realise that following Our Hotshot wherever they go is a good business
plan. Discovering Our Hotshot's flight plan by corrupt means or following
them out of the starport to detecting their ships' direction of the jump,
should reveal Our Hotshot's intended destination. Once in that port, local
brokers can be advised that whatever Our Hotshot bids on a lot will be met
or exceeded. Locals may also realise that the mere fact of Our Hotshot's
interest indicates that maybe their speculative goods are worth more than
they thought. 

GMs should also consider making up NPC ship crews, and having them
interested in the same goods, leading to an auction situation for any given
batch of speculative goods.



Optional Rules :

Option #1 - 'Do you have it in blue ?'

Once you have found a good, for every sourceworld WTN point, you can get a
+/- 1 DM to any of Origin Price, Risk or Lot Size (nominate DMs before any
rolls), or get extra rolls on Trade Class Modifiers. The logic is that
worlds with big economies have more chances at getting exactly what you want.

Option #2 - 'I have a cousin. He owns the factory'

Custom batches are possible and takes one month or longer. Design the good,
pay cash in advance and roll Legal skill, limited by Area Knowledge, at -1
per point of CR for the world to avoid unexpected contractual difficulties.
The manufacturer then rolls against their skill to get it right.

Option #3 - The Asteroid Belt exemption

Many worlds have an Asteroid Belt in addition to the mainworld. The
Asteroid belt counts as a seperate system 1 parsec from the mainworld. It
is an Amber Zone unless the mainworld is Hi Pop or Industrial and TL9 or
better. It is usually Pop (Mainworld-3), and usually shares Gov type and
Law Level with the mainworld.

Option #4 - 'I bought some off you last month'

If a batch has been bought, you can make another Find Goods Roll to find
another batch (possibly of a different size). Every time this is done after
the second, roll the BTN of the 2 worlds plus the number of times on 3
dice, or some other trader notices the niche.

Option #5 - 'Last month, you could have made money. This month ...'

Each week, roll 3 dice against any Predicted Destination Price. If it's
less than the number of weeks since it was made, trash the prediction. 

Option #6 - 'They want to know if we're interested in WHAT ?'

Traders go broke in interesting places. Feel free to make up interesting
goods turning up in all sorts of wrong places.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 03:19:35 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: 3I Raising Military Forces

- -----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, May 13, 1999 1:41 AM
Subject: re: 3I Raising Military Forces



>When you look at the British Regimental system (arguably the most
>successful example, and the one the US copied when they introduced
>their Regimental System after Vietnam) the key is that the Regiments
>have no operational existance. The Regiments are purely an administrative
>construct. The Regiments are recruited territorially (ie all troops in a
>Regiment will come from a particular geographic region). The new recruit
>will be trained at the Regimental Depot and then posted out to a battalion.
>During the last century, individual battalions could be posted out to the
far
>corners of the Empire for years on end, serve under higher commands;
>and still retain their primary attachment to the Regiment. Actually the
>situation of the last century is very similar to how things are likely to
be in
>the 3rd Imperium. Units serve on distant postings for many years, with
>communications with the parent unit taking months. The British
>Regimental system strikes me as a very good model for the Imperial Army.

Well, here's how the Imperial Army functions IMTU:

First of all, based on the game FFW and the CT/MT character generation
system, the Imperium has no reserve force comparable to the National Guard
or Territorials.  I base everything off that simple fact.  In time of war,
the Imperium relies on three sources for military power:

1) The regular Imperial Army.  This consists of a large number of sophonts
in direct Imperial service, equipped, trained and utilized by the Imperium.
During peacetime, they would tend to be based at a few, key, locations, with
small forces staioned as peacekeepers or garrisons where necessary.  By
canon, Imperial units are organized into varying size units, with none being
consistently mentioned as the basic building block.  IMTU, it is the
battalion.  Battalions are part of a regiment, which are set up as above.  A
regiment's recruiting area is rarely, if ever, a single world, as the
feeling is that this would tend to produce units more loyal to a world than
the Imperium.  Instead, the subsector is the basic recruiting area.
Depending on the population, there will be 2 or more battalions per
regiment, with at least one stationed in the subsector, and at least one "on
the frontier", the obvious exception being those subsectors directly along a
hostile border.  Subsectors with large populations will have several
regiments, and no regiment has more than 8-10 battalions.   Above the
battalion, units are typically "brigaded", i.e., two or more battalions form
a brigade, which has little if any tradition of it's own.  Brigades tend to
swap battalions frequently (every several years, in peacetime), and are
broken up and assembled as required.  Higher level units are similar
conglomerations.  Battalions tend to move every couple of years, at the
least.  Individual soldiers enlisting or being commissioned within a
regiment will, as far as possible, be always posted to a battalion of that
regiment.  While they will be posted away for schools, special duty, etc.,
they know they will eventually return.   BTW, when several battalions from
the same regiment form a brigade, it is called a "Regimental Combat Team",
just to confuse things.  This happens mainly in elite units, such as drop
troops.

2)  Wartime mobilization.  In case of a large war, the Emperor may direct
some Regiments to raise additional battalions.  These are typically formed
around a cadre of veterans from the regiment, and are dissolved once the
crisis ends.  Most regiments contain at a battalion at cadre level in case
this happens, especially those located in the interior.

3)  Colonial Forces.  Individual worlds within the Imperium maintain armies,
with (surprise!) about 11,000 different organizations.  The only requirement
is that they be organized tactically the same as Imperial forces.  Thus
there will be all sorts of weird unit designators floating around if they
are called into Imperial service.  Note that planetary forces will rarely be
brigaded with Regulars.


Designators:
An Imperial Battalion is referred to as the x battalion of the y regiment.
x will be a numeral, y will be either a name or a number, or both, and will
also include a title describing the branch.  Examples:

1st Battalion, Deneb Light Infantry
3rd Battalion, 514th Jump Infantry (Regina Rifles)
4th Battalion, Emperor's Own Solomani Tank Regiment
5th Battalion, Marquis of Fornice's Lancers
1st(Corridor) Battalion, Imperial Vargr Rangers

Many regiments will include a patron's title, and each regiment will
jealously gaurd its traditions and title.  For example, calling a member of
the 514th Jump Regiment anything other than "Rifleman" will probably start a
fight.  Other oddities will include non-standard ranks- the Vargr Rangers
use naval ranks, because of their origin as stranded ship's crew fighting as
infantry, for example.  These sort of quirks add realism, well as being "a
hoot".  Finally, every regiment has *something* to distinuish it as an item
of uniform, and will display said item wherever and whenever possible.

BTW, if YTU uses some variation of this system, former members of "the
Regiment" will be great patrons, contacts, etc.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

Whenever books are burned men also,
 in the end, are burned.- Heinrich Heine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 04:23:34 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Deck Plans

>Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:44:53 -0400
>From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
>Subject: Deck Plans
>
>Have any official (As in GDW, not DGP stuff...) deck plans ever been
>published for any of the following ships:
>
>Midu Agashaam class Destroyer

Vampire Fleets (for TNE), pp. 34-37.

>Also, have any details been published for the (40dton?) heavy fighters that
>the Tigress and Antiama carry?

Supp. 9: Fighting Ships, p. 26.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:46:49 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

At 09:13 12/05/1999, "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
>At 08:48 PM 5/9/99 -0400, you wrote:

<snip>

>>brigade, or they won't do a damn bit of good.  Witness the US Army's
>>"regimental" system.  A regiment can have battalions in three different
>>divisions and detailers make no particular effort to keep soldiers in the
>>same regiment from tour to tour.  Utterly worthless except to give soldiers
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>another patch to wear.
>
>Actually, I'd keep the brigades mixed.  A soldier will serve his entire
>career in the same regiment, but have battalions of different regiments in
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>a brigade encourages competition.

I'm not sure, but you seem to be both saying the same thing, ie assigned
permanently to the same regiment but with changing higher command
structure.

It all depends on what you see as the largest tactical unit. For large scale
actions (eg WWII) it might be the division. For smaller scale actions
(eg shipboard marines) it could even be the company or platoon.

If the unit is too large, you could end up having to deploy several
BatRons of Tigresses into an area just the keep the Marines together.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:55:33 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

I just know I'm going to regret this...

There seems to be some question about how much we can deduce about
TL15 computers, based on our experience with TL7 ones.

Some say the fundamental principles (boolean logic, bootstrap code, etc)
stay the same, some say that everything could be different.

I would like to propose a different starting point.
I'm not saying it models how things are in Traveller at TL15, but
it starts with the most powerful computer system we currently know of.

The Human Brain.

I'm not saying that a model/9 computer has a human brain in it or even
some genetically engineered brain stuff - after all, it is capable of
doing things that we can't (ie ensuring thata jump-6 plot goes where it
is supposed to) and cannot do things that we can (like be "sentient").

So what are the specs?
Well, I may be wrong, but:

	Can change its internal structure.

	Its internal structure depends on its external environment,
	especially its mechanical housing.

	Cannot be reloaded from backup.

	Cannot be copied.

	Can be programmed.

	Programming changes the internal structure.

	Can be affected by viruses. :-)

Personally, I have a much better high tech science feel about Traveller
computers if I start with a brain as my model rather than letting my
players defeat a meglomaniac computer by getting to the main console
and hitting Ctrl-Alt-Del with a clean system disk in drive A.

<rant>

	I develop something that takes decades for a TL17 research
	station with state of the art equipment, unlimited funds
	and hundreds of the finest minds in that field from the whole
	Imperium.
	Then people require that a PC with Computer-6 on a tramp
	freighter and a model/1 computer should be able to defeat
	it by rolling on:

	Remove TNE Virus: Impossible, Computer, Int, 1 hour, fateful

	I am sure that some would complain about "fateful" and others
	would argue for "uncertain".

	;-)

</rant>

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 00:21:15 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

Date sent:      	Thu, 13 May 1999 12:55:33 +0100
From:           	Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>

>I just know I'm going to regret this...

>So what are the specs?
>Well, I may be wrong, but:

>	Can change its internal structure.

>	Its internal structure depends on its external environment,
>	especially its mechanical housing.

>	Cannot be reloaded from backup.

>	Cannot be copied.

>	Can be programmed.

>	Programming changes the internal structure.

>	Can be affected by viruses. :-)

I believe we have such systems now, neural networks


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:25:33 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

At 01:30 AM 5/13/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 99-05-12 09:46:39 EDT, you write:
>
><< >What would it do to a neural jack and the persons brains and to I even 
>want 
> >to know?
> >-Stephen
> >
> 
> They would turn into real AIR-heads and gear-heads.  Those systems were
> pnumatic and clockwork!  And you would really be surprised at all the things
> they could do in the way of process control.  Remember in WW2 the TDCs,
> Nordon bomb sights, and balistic targeting computer on ships were all 
>clockwork!
>  >>
>Wow, I thought that they worked on charts.  At any rate what would the Virus 
>do if it infected a computer and then someone linked to it though a neural 
>jack?
>-Stephen
>

There were cyber zombies in the adventure in vampire fleets.  I do not
recall how they came about exactly but they were there.

Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #617
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 13 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 618



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Re: Fleet Ops
Re: Oldies, but goodies!
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Re: OT: :Gamma World
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Re: A 12-step program for Virus fans
Japanese and German traveller query
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #616
re: Fleet Ops
re: Fleet Ops
re: Fleet Ops
FW: Jupiter's Supersonic Winds
re: Fleet Ops
re: Drop Tank Numbers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:25:44 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

At 02:22 AM 5/13/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 99-05-12 18:54:02 EDT, you write:
>
><< And don't forget the difference engine.  IIRC They finished it and it 
>works.
> I've worked with several of these beasties.  Most people do not know it but
> there are quite a few of this out there in industry or at least they were.
> The problems are implimentation and cost.  They are amazing bits of design
> engineering though.
> 
> Charles L. >>
>
>What are they?
>-Stephen
>

There's a LONG list.  Start back with the Nordon bomb sight and the inigma
device and go up through barber-colmans and moores.  Toss in WW2 TDCs and
balistic targeting computers and you have a start.  Do not forget the
difference engine in the smithsonian though or the old mechanical cash
registers.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:27:32 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

Assuming that the defenders scatter...

If the defenders are now hiding in gas giants, behind asteroids,
under the oceans or just trying to look like space debris,
it might take less than one week to move between places within
the system, but how long does it take to search each place?

I would suggest that travel plus search = 1 TCS turn per fleet
division per location.

Now you have a shell game, except that the defenders cannot move
between locations (from the DSR, any amount of thrust in open
space will be noticed),

If it's going to take months to search the whole system, how many
locations does the attacker search? If the attacker searches too
many at once, he might not have enough force at some to win.

How does the attacker know that *all* the defender's forces have
been found. Perhaps only one of the defender's SDBs attacked.
Perhaps the crew of the only SDB admitted under interrogation
that there were actually two but you can't find the other one.
Even the Zhodani can fall for this if the captain believes there
is a second.

And when the attacker finally decaleres the system safe, does he
still escort the supply convoys?

====

One failing I find with many "god games" is that the victor of a
battle gains the production of the system and the forces that it
can support.

History suggests that most of the time, the resources gained
won't offset the cost of garrisoning them and the reduction
in your opponent's resources barely pay for your losses in
gaining them, although when the original owner returns, they
should get back a much larger proportion or the original
capacity.


Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:42:43 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Oldies, but goodies!

At 09:27 12/05/1999 -0700, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:
>Eris Reddoch wrote:
>> 
>> On 05/11/99 at 09:40 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:
>> 
>> >Captain to new crewmember:
>> 
>> >"Well, the damn nic in the aft engineering workstation died a month
>> >ago, and since it's a 150 year old model, it's been hard to find
>> >parts...so we just do everything by hand...I know, I know, it's a
>> >pain, and someday we're gonna have to jump on less than 12 hours
>> >notice...I'll get _around_ to it, ok? Now go pound on the forward
>> >stab'rd ventilation controller, the damn relay's stuck closed again,
>> >and if that keeps up it's gonna be like an icebox in the passenger
>> >cabins again."
>> 
>> Bruce, you have it!  Now remember those words when you get to the Mae
Lee. ;->
>
>Tbbbbbttttthhhh!!!!!

Are they still looking for *that* ship?

I took Bruce's comments to mean that he had given up hope and would
rather the Mae Lee was a complete wreck since he didn't expect to
be flying in it.

;-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:45:59 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

At 12:55 PM 5/13/99 +0100, you wrote:
>I just know I'm going to regret this...
>
>There seems to be some question about how much we can deduce about
>TL15 computers, based on our experience with TL7 ones.
>
>Some say the fundamental principles (boolean logic, bootstrap code, etc)
>stay the same, some say that everything could be different.
>
>I would like to propose a different starting point.
>I'm not saying it models how things are in Traveller at TL15, but
>it starts with the most powerful computer system we currently know of.
>
>The Human Brain.
>
>I'm not saying that a model/9 computer has a human brain in it or even
>some genetically engineered brain stuff - after all, it is capable of
>doing things that we can't (ie ensuring thata jump-6 plot goes where it
>is supposed to) and cannot do things that we can (like be "sentient").
>
>So what are the specs?
>Well, I may be wrong, but:
>
>	Can change its internal structure.
>

        Within limits, as I had said.

>	Its internal structure depends on its external environment,
>	especially its mechanical housing.
>

        Are you suggesting the sledge hammer method of virus removal?

>	Cannot be reloaded from backup.
>

        That's true, with the current OS.  Read a little car wars for a work
arround. (Grin)

>	Cannot be copied.
>

        See car wars comment above.

>	Can be programmed.
>

        VERY SLOWLY.

>	Programming changes the internal structure.
>

        On the same level as it does a computer today.  The gate level only.

>	Can be affected by viruses. :-)
>

        actually it's the support system that is effected by viruses.

>Personally, I have a much better high tech science feel about Traveller
>computers if I start with a brain as my model rather than letting my
>players defeat a meglomaniac computer by getting to the main console
>and hitting Ctrl-Alt-Del with a clean system disk in drive A.
>
><rant>
>
>	I develop something that takes decades for a TL17 research
>	station with state of the art equipment, unlimited funds
>	and hundreds of the finest minds in that field from the whole
>	Imperium.
>	Then people require that a PC with Computer-6 on a tramp
>	freighter and a model/1 computer should be able to defeat
>	it by rolling on:
>
>	Remove TNE Virus: Impossible, Computer, Int, 1 hour, fateful
>
>	I am sure that some would complain about "fateful" and others
>	would argue for "uncertain".
>
>	;-)
>
></rant>
>
>Phil Kitching
>--

Viruses today are much easier to 'cure' that to write.  Prehaps it will
always be so.  I would not risk my life in a ship with a computer that could
not be flushed and rebuilt if necessary.  It's not like you can get out and
walk home.  

What happened to backups and safety systems?  Are people in the traveller
universe just plain stupid?  Or do they have a death wish?  Most traveller
designs have almost no redundancy built in.  Look at the scout ship.
Designed to be the first on 'out there' with only one computer, only enough
fuel for only the outbound trip, and no fuel processor.  Briliant!  No
wonder the scouts wanted an azanti high lightning class cruiser.  It must be
that the 3I uses the lowest bidder just like the US military.

The leviathan is the only remotely sencable exploritory design I've seen in
cannon.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:46:55 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: OT: :Gamma World

At 20:31 12/05/1999 +0100, SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
>Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>>> To quote a famous Pace Picante Sauce commercial here in the States:
>>> "Get a rope."
>>> Jesse
>>> :)
>>> > I wonder what the legal logistics would be for them to do a Traveller
>>> > book for Alternity?  Or are we talking sacriledge?  :)
>> Got it... Get a tree.
>
>Nooooo! We should burn the heretic... fetch the comfy chair, Cardinal
Fang....

Whilst we are waiting:

	Thwow him to the gwound, woughly!

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:55:55 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

At 00:21 14/05/1999 +1200, "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"
<a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:
>Date sent:      	Thu, 13 May 1999 12:55:33 +0100
>From:           	Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>
>>I just know I'm going to regret this...
>
>>So what are the specs?
>>Well, I may be wrong, but:
>
>>	Can change its internal structure.
>
>>	Its internal structure depends on its external environment,
>>	especially its mechanical housing.
>
>>	Cannot be reloaded from backup.
>
>>	Cannot be copied.
>
>>	Can be programmed.
>
>>	Programming changes the internal structure.
>
>>	Can be affected by viruses. :-)
>
>I believe we have such systems now, neural networks
>
I believe that currently they fail Charles' requirements because they
can be copied and reloaded from backup, thus negating the Virus.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:15:12 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: A 12-step program for Virus fans

I've been skipping this discussion but a remark caught my attention. I
apologise if I'm making a point someone else has already made.

Charles Prevatte writes:
>You (the TMLers, not you alone) have been proposing some very strange
>technology to make your assumptions of how the virus works valid and
>posible.

That, IMO, is their mistake. Virus is a plot device. It shouldn't be
explained, just described. To me, Virus is a magic... sorry, I meant
psionic, of course... entity with some well-defined behaviour rules
to let me know how it works in a campaign.

Psionics is the magic of the Traveller universe. You don't have to
explain WHY psionics works, you just have to describe HOW it works.

I have some trouble with one particular aspect of the Virus story, but
that pertains to various human deeds and reactions that I find flat out
implausible. Virus itself don't need justification. It's a given 



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:14:58 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Japanese and German traveller query

Is there anyone who has a copy of the Japanese edition of Traveller who would be
willing to help answer questions about it for an entry in the appendix of the
second edition of the Traveller Bibliography?


I would also be interested to hear from anyone who'd be willing to help with
queries about the following German products:
Traveller Regelbuch  (the main rule book)
Traveller II: Soldner, Scouts & Handelsprinzen
Kauffahrer und Kanonenboote  (Supp 7:  Traders and Gunboats)
Tierbegegnungen   (Supp 2: Animal Encounters)
Foschungsstation Gamm (Ad 2: Research Station Gamma)
Nomaden des Weltenmeeres (Ad 9: Nomads of the World Ocean)
Gefangniswelt (Ad 8: Prison Planet)
Zweilichtberg (Ad 3: Twiglet's Peak)
Die Geheimnisvollen (Ad 12: Secrets of the Ancients)
and three double adventures:
Nacht der Entsheidung/Ein Gott greift ein
Die Chamax-Pest/Schreckenshorde
Argon Gambit/Station des Todes


Many thanks in advance

tc
No prizes for spotting the typo.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:17:42 EDT
From: GaryBartz@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #616

"Thunder and Steel, Sir"
"Willing and Able, Sir!"

My experience ---"Stop resisting! Put your hands behind your back, sir"
[sorry, had to pipe in for the second time in three years]


As to the unit level loyality question, in non-combat arms units usually your 
work section, platoon, whatever...MPs it was platoon in general and whoever 
usually made up your shift in particular
From what I have seen of combat arms units fighting each other...platoons for 
friends, companies for unit pride [you suck, you cheated at the march/with 
the MILES laser tag gear], BLTs if the other people were from some long 
standing old conflict from unit history, and they were mad at each other for 
another good reason and the fight was already on in between two people, the 
regiment thing was just for a cool saying, and a place they knew they were 
likely to be assigned to in Korea/Germany/US

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:27:08 ADT
From: "Les Howie" <les_howie@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

Walter:

Found your post on Fleet Ops interesting, since I have being looking at a 
comparable project myself.  I do have some thoughts about how a player 
should be able to apply the system you are working on in order to achieve 
strategic objectives.

First, you looked at the main point of why you would want to hold on in a 
system as being to wait for relief.  What *I* want to do is hide a part (or 
most of) my fleet until you leave.  That means your system must allow for 
strategic uncertainty -- I must be able to have concealed units that my 
opponent is not aware of.

What would I do with this?  Divide the fleet, TF 1.1 hides on planet, 
asteroid belt, whatever.  TF 1.2 hides in gas giant and related moons.  TF 
1.3 comes out and gives you a good fight and runs for it.  Great, you say, 
your fleet has won.

Now you move on.  Once you are gone for a while, TF 1.2 starts sniping at 
your re-fueling transports, 1.1 contests system control if odds look good, 
etc.

Now, as the aggressor, how can I respond to this?

"One big fleet" can't search a whole solar system in a week (IIRC, a TCS 
turn is a week), I will have to disperse and start searching.  Note number 
of units and elint capability are key factors, not size of individual ships. 
  This brings fighters back to effectiveness with a real vengeance -- along 
with other light units.

If I am doing refueling ops, I will have to escort my tankers -- more 
dispersion of resources.

The tactical situation now gets interesting, especially with elint and 
hidden units.  Can I mask or hide my heavies and bait out a part of your 
fleet, then bounce it (essentially what the Germans were trying to do at 
Jutland)?

This can get very interesting while still staying a hex-and-vector free 
system.

As I say, I have been looking at this for a while.  Drop me a note if you 
would like to do share a few more ideas.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:48:00 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

Stephen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think that you are thinking a little small.. You will have to keep part of 
your fleet at home to make shure that they don't attack you and find the door open, the need to keep part of your force at home should off set this 
some.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
If every system has a mainworld, two or three gas giants, a research
colony and an asteroid mining station to defend, we'll see a bigger
chunk of the budget spent on defense forces, definitely agree with
you there. That would make the available attack forces smaller,
but they may still be effective as they can attack parts of the enemy
defense forces in a system instead of the whole fleet.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:03:16 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

Phil Kitching wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I would suggest that travel plus search = 1 TCS turn per fleet
division per location.

Now you have a shell game, except that the defenders cannot move
between locations (from the DSR, any amount of thrust in open
space will be noticed),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This sounds useful. One rule case I'm working on is Lurking - under
certain circumstances, a unit can (at this level of abstraction) can sit
tight in an asteroid belt, dense ring system or gas giant and simply
not be found. If all the defenders are doing this, the Fleet Ops segment
of the TCS turn will end with a draw.

Phil again:
>>>>>>>>>>
If it's going to take months to search the whole system, how many
locations does the attacker search? If the attacker searches too
many at once, he might not have enough force at some to win.
>>>>>>>>>>
My rules set makes a defended gas giant a real hornet's nest for
an intruder to attempt refueling in - *everything* puts the advantage
towards small SDB's. Spinal mounts, bay weapons, screens, agility,
even computer ratings simply don't work properly while you're on a
high-speed refueling run through a gas giant atmosphere. The defenders
get many of these limitations as well, but generally have far fewer of
these capabilites to lose.

Ever wonder what happens to a 60KdTn cruiser when it's fire control
doesn't work well enough to do point defense, while the attacking
SDB flight has just enough fire control to get a nuclear missile
contact hit? Want to see it while the cruiser is flying through 
monster-hurricane level storms in a rapidly-increasing gravity well? ;-)

Phil again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
How does the attacker know that *all* the defender's forces have
been found. Perhaps only one of the defender's SDBs attacked.
Perhaps the crew of the only SDB admitted under interrogation
that there were actually two but you can't find the other one.
Even the Zhodani can fall for this if the captain believes there
is a second.

And when the attacker finally decaleres the system safe, does he
still escort the supply convoys?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
From the Rules of War: When you've secured an area, be sure to inform
the enemy.
Interstellar Navy addendum to above rule: There's always one more SDB.

Phil again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
One failing I find with many "god games" is that the victor of a
battle gains the production of the system and the forces that it
can support.

History suggests that most of the time, the resources gained
won't offset the cost of garrisoning them and the reduction
in your opponent's resources barely pay for your losses in
gaining them, although when the original owner returns, they
should get back a much larger proportion or the original
capacity.
>>>>>>>>>>>
TCS provides a pretty long time period between capture of a system
and use of resources. Refueling facilities can be used quickly, but
shipyards take time on the order of months or a year IIRC. The rules
also provided guidelines for sabotage of ships the original owner of the
system was building or repairing as he loses the system.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:13:25 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: FW: Jupiter's Supersonic Winds

Greetings, all!

I've received a Galileo-related update from NASA
which explains for all time why there will be
*NO* fuel skimming around the poles of gas giants.
Keep in mind while you're reading the following that
300 miles an hour winds are strong enough to
destroy even hardened buildings.

Of course, if anyone can come up with a reason why
fuel skimming could be done at the poles, I'd love
to hear it. About the only thing I can think of
is to have a total lack of near moons so the Io
effect is avoided.

The article can also be used as is for the basis of
a scientific adventure if the somewhat standard
shoot-'em-up becomes old hat.

Enjoy!


> Jupiter's supersonic winds
> ROYAL ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY NEWS RELEASE
> May 12, 1999
> 
> Violent winds race around the poles of Jupiter at thousands
> of miles an hour like cars round a racetrack, sometimes
> reaching supersonic speeds. And these winds - known as
> "auroral electrojets" - may help to explain why temperatures
> at the top of the jovian atmosphere are much higher than would
> be expected for a planet five times farther away from the Sun
> than Earth.
> 
> Writing in this week's 'Nature', an international team of
> astronomers report that the first detection of the auroral
> electrojet on Jupiter, in which electrically charged molecules
> - ions - are accelerated by electro-magnetic forces to an 
> average 2.8 kilometres per second. Co-ordinated by Dr. Steve
> Miller, of the Department of Physics and Astronomy at 
> University College London, the team used Nasa's Infrared 
> Telescope Facility (IRTF) on Mauna Kea, Hawaii, to measure
> the speed of rapidly moving molecular hydrogen ions, H3+.
> 
> The poles of Jupiter are ringed by aurorae, like the Earth's
> Northern and Southern Lights, only a thousand times more
> powerful. These aurorae trace out a bright oval track around
> which the fast ion winds flow. They are produced when energetic
> particles - mainly electrons - are fired along Jupiter's
> magnetic field and crash into the upper atmosphere.
> 
> The auroral region of the atmosphere links though the magnetic
> field to a giant "plasmasheet", consisting of electrically
> charged gas and dust, which swirls around Jupiter like a
> spinning ballerina's skirt. This plasmasheet extends from the
> orbit of Jupiter's moon Io, some 350,000 kilometres above the
> planet's surface, outwards for nearly 3 million kilometres,
> swirling round, as Jupiter rotates, roughly once every 9 hours
> 55 minutes. Most of the plasma in the sheet comes from the
> highly active volcanoes on Io and then drifts outwards into
> space.
> 
> "You need a lot of energy to keep that plasmasheet rotating
> along with Jupiter," explains Dr. Miller. "At the rate that Io
> is pumping out gas and dust - about 1 tonne per second - we
> estimate that up to ten million megawatts of power is required.
> 
> "What is happening is that the plasmasheet is siphoning off some
> of the reservoir of rotational energy that is stored up in Jupiter.
> Our discovery of the auroral electrojet shows how the plasmasheet
> couples to the planet by a sort of electromagnetic friction, which
> involves electric currents flowing through the plasmasheet, along
> Jupiter's magnetic field and then closing the switch across the
> aurorae. We've had a model that predicted this for some while, but
> now we really know it's true."
> 
> The Group's technique for detecting the jovian electrojet consisted
> of carefully measuring the wavelength of lines of H3+ emission using
> the spectrometer on the IRTF telescope. The rapid motion of these
> ions in the electrojet caused their lines to be "Doppler shifted".
> 
> The friction between the electrojet and the rest of Jupiter's
> atmosphere also produces a great deal of energy, which can go into
> heating the rest of the planet and helps explain why the temperature
> near the top is around 1000K, several hundred degrees hotter than
> can be maintained by sunlight alone.
> 
> "Although Jupiter is one of the best studied of the planets - the
> Galileo orbiter will have been circling the planet for four years by
> the time its mission finishes at the end of the year - it still has
> many secrets and many puzzles to solve. Understanding the dynamics
> of Jupiter is the key to unravelling many of these," Dr. Miller
> comments.
> 
> 'Supersonic Winds in Jupiter's Aurorae', published in the 13 May
> 1999 issue of Nature, is by:
> 
> Daniel Rego (1,2), Nicholas Achilleos (1), Tom Stallard (1),
> Steve Miller (1), Renee Prange (2), Michele Dougherty (3) and
> Robert D. Joseph (4).
> 
> (1) Department of Physics and Astronomy, University College London,
> Gower Street, London WC1E 6BT, UK
> 
> (2) Institut d'Astrophysique Spatiale, UMR-CNRS 120, Batiment 121
> Universite de Paris XI, 91405 Orsay Cedex, France
> 
> (3) Space and Atmospheric Physics, Imperial College,
> London SW7 2BZ, UK
> 
> (4) Institute for Astronomy, University of Hawaii, Woodlawn Drive,
> Honolulu, HI 96822, USA
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:10:33 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

Joseph Kimball wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You end up having to ask, "why is this system being fought over?"  If
the answer is  GG fueling opportunities, then that is where you attack
and defend.  For example, a system with a type E starport (a flat area
of bedrock, maybe with some kind of beacon) and a UPP population of 0 or
1 (less than 100 people) will probably never have an enemy fleet try to
invest it.  The enemy fleet would go for the GG for refueling and ignore
the planet.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I agree, but notice how many gas giants some systems have. A frontier
subsector is going to have dozens of gas giants to defend - that's one 
reason my rule set makes gas giants so relatively easy to protect.

I could imagine planning a defense strategy around important worlds
rather than a sealed frontier, simply because it's so expensive to seal
off every gas giant, minor water-harboring planet and ice-capped planetoid
on the border.

You could probably invest a starport E pop 1 world with a pinnace.
You might want to, if it had a safer fuel source than that gas giant
that might be hosting a hundred hidden SDB's.

Joseph wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
On the other hand, a system with multiple type A starports
on several bodies in the system, with a system poplulation in the
millions or billions, perhaps Rich or Industrial, with a nich high tech
level, you would need a huge enemy fleet investing each of the places
with starports since new fighting hulls could be produced or jury-rigged
in fairly short order.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is the kind of system where seiges happen, just because it's so 
valuable that it will be able to afford plenty of defenses.

"Short Order" for Traveller starship construction is measured in months
and years. Repair and resupply, now...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:29:06 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Drop Tank Numbers

David P. Summers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If the tank is disposable (and the description given for them
says they shouldn't have to be), then yes, it would make sense
not to build them to standards for internal tanks.  This means
they will be _cheaper_.  It also doesn't mean they have to be
unreliable (if they are are built to lower standards becuase
one use doesn't put as much demand on them, then they are
perfectly adequate for their use).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
They'll be perfectly reliable when serving the purpose for which they
have been designed. IMO, if they are to be cheaper than built-in
starship fuel tanks, then this purpose needs to be carefully limited
to show *why* they are so much cheaper than built-in fuel tanks.

For example, maybe they need much more regular refurbishing. Perhaps 
where a starship uses a double-wall tank with a catalyst within the double-
wall, a drop tank uses a single-wall with a cheap liner that will degenerate
within days (weeks?) after fueling and need to be replaced.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #618
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 13 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 619



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: Drop Tank Numbers 
Behind the Claw (was Re: Islands Clusters)
re: Drop Tank Numbers
re: Computer Technology
Re: Battlefleet Mars
Regiments (was re: 3I Raising Military Forces)
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks
re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
System Building
Re: Japanese and German traveller query
Re: Starship Depreciation
re: Fleet Ops
Re: one minor comment on Virus
Re: Computer Technology
re: Computer Technology
RE: Modular Cutter
Re: Fleet Ops plus Logistics
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: Starship Depreciation
re: Fleet Ops plus Logistics
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 07:37:52 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation
...
>So, can anyone help me out and remember the English sailing ship that did
>stay in service for around 300 years ?
>Was it perhaps "Le Rose" or one of those other ships from AH's Kingmaker ?

  It almost certainly wasn't a warship then - design changed too much from
1600 to 1900, or even 1550 to 1850.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 07:38:05 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers 

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers 
...
>>   Are you suggesting that a non-disposable L-Hyd tank be allowed if it costs
>> the same as a hull(/internal tankage) in HG2 - i.e., KCr 50-120 per Dt?
>
>You get the rope, I'll get the lighter fluid.

  Nah, we'll _errata_ him - maybe list him as an IRS auditor? And maybe while
we're at it we can get the imbecile who came up with "A 12-Step Program for
Virus Fans" as a subject title for a thread?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 07:38:37 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Behind the Claw (was Re: Islands Clusters)

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Islands Clusters 
...
>>   It's a mere factoid at best, and replaced by TNE's RSB in any case. I
assume
>> that a number of similar cases arise in the Marches under various editions. A
>> ref could provide some character to such systems by figuring out what their
>> specific source of L-Hyd is - possibly including tanking it in.
>
>I never got around to getting the RSB.  By the time I knew about it, it was
already unavailiable.

  Unless you're running TNE then G:T's Behind the Claw should serve just as
well.
But keep your eyes open anyway - sometimes the strangest stuff shows up.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:32:48 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Drop Tank Numbers

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
  Are you suggesting that a non-disposable L-Hyd tank be allowed if it costs
the same as a hull(/internal tankage) in HG2 - i.e., KCr 50-120 per Dt?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
That sounds like an interesting idea. Anyone have an economics model
of drop tank effects in a spreadsheet, so they could see the effects with
much more expensive drop tanks that could (at cost to operate tugs and
perform minor tank maintenance) have a service life of 10 years or more?

Why is Keven getting lighter fluid and rope?  ;-)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:38:37 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
They would be analog computers, yes they can do things that binary
computers don't do well or can't do. The Norden bombsight referred to
earlier in this discussion was an analog computer...so is a slide rule.

Some years ago there was an article in Scientific American about simple
analog computers that solved quite hard problems...and I mean simple:
they were literally built from Tinkertoys!

One, IIRC it was in either the Amateur Scientist or Mathematical
Recreations column, showed an analog computer that solved shortest-path
problems using nothing more than string, rubberbands and wooden pegs on
pegboard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
One word: WOW.

I'm imagining a group of these analog-minded sophonts building 
tinkertoy-like (orrery-like?) computers at TL 1. 

(Cut to Walt scribbling away notes for a new Contact! article...)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:00:32 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Battlefleet Mars

>From: SRKOALA@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Fleet Ops
...
><< SPS had a wonderful strategy game called Battlefleet mMars where a big
> battle was fought between various fleets in the solar system. They didn't
> use a hex/square map of the system but rather argued that no fleet would
> ever meet in transit between planets. Thus if you can make up some
> tables/whatever to calculate the triptimes between major bodies your player
> simply checks the traveltime to a target, determines ETA and consider that
> task force out of combat until arriving. >>
>
>You have a good point, if the sensors are poor, finding something as small as 
>a battleship is tough, so most likly in that case the battles will be fought 
>at the target.

  Someone from sf-consim might correct me, but ISTR that Battlefleet Mars
assumed low-ish tech (very by Trav standards) - the ships use low thrust
high fuel efficiency drives in-system, and chemical drives in combat; they
simply couldn't afford to radically alter their trajectores once they began
a strategic deployment.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:02:59 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Regiments (was re: 3I Raising Military Forces)

Interesting thread on loyalty to the regiment and military organization
and psychology. Looks like I was wrong about a soldier's perception of
unit and command.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 23:27:54 +0800
From: "Benjamin Barton" <Aramis3d@iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks

>A Gazebo!

We where playing Rolmaster , The DM rolled a random encounter,.....the party
encounters a Gazebo , but the DM anounced We had encounted a wandering group
of Gazz-a-boos....   The Party prepares to Strike with weapons and spell, as
DM look thoughts the books for the monster.
But the DM still couldn't find the monster in the books. Finally, a few of
the players help look thought the books,  After a few minutes then someone
said spell it....G-A-Z-E-B-O.  Well we all found it very funny.....even now
people still resite the tale of the great Gazzaboo hunt.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:46:46 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
What happened to backups and safety systems?  Are people in the traveller
universe just plain stupid?  Or do they have a death wish?  Most traveller
designs have almost no redundancy built in.  Look at the scout ship.
Designed to be the first on 'out there' with only one computer, only enough
fuel for only the outbound trip, and no fuel processor.  Briliant!  No
wonder the scouts wanted an azanti high lightning class cruiser.  It must be
that the 3I uses the lowest bidder just like the US military.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Scouts. 7+ survival roll per term. Go figure.  <G>

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The leviathan is the only remotely sencable exploritory design I've seen in
cannon.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It depends what your job is. A type S is *not* a full survey vessel. It's
even been described in a subordinate vessel role - a big Scout Cruiser 
voyages through an unexplored cluster, with individual scout ships
ranging out and back from the Cruiser's course. If it finds anything
interesting enough for a full survey, then either the Cruiser goes to check
it out or they log it for later follow-up. If a type S misses a rendezvous,
the Scout Cruiser (which may be something like an Azhanti High Lightning)
goes looking for it.

I think most Type S scouts are in the courier role anyway - take info and
small packages from a civilized planet to a backwater, but still civilized
planet. The computer is reliable to a fault (works on a 13- on 2d6, 
modified for battle damage and evil GM tricks), the drives have a bonus
on the misjump roll for being Scout drives that more than makes up for
any unrefined fuel penalty...now if they could just fix that blasted
air filter system... <G>

Leviathan was intended to perform fast, detailed surveys of potential
resource and/or market worlds. The crew ar merchants, not scouts - they
demand a safer and stronger ship, must be to maintain that 4+ (IIRC)
survival roll. I almost think Leviathan was overkill - extra drives? Maybe
for someone on the way to the galactic core, but for a couple month
voyage?

And don't even start with her jump message torpedos... <WEG>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:10:28 -0700
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> Some years ago there was an article in Scientific American about simple
> analog computers that solved quite hard problems...and I mean simple:
> they were literally built from Tinkertoys!
>
> One, IIRC it was in either the Amateur Scientist or Mathematical
> Recreations column, showed an analog computer that solved shortest-path
> problems using nothing more than string, rubberbands and wooden pegs on
> pegboard.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> One word: WOW.
>
> I'm imagining a group of these analog-minded sophonts building
> tinkertoy-like (orrery-like?) computers at TL 1.
> (Cut to Walt scribbling away notes for a new Contact! article...)

It been done, I had my PC find an Ancients site(after a fun miss jump, and
leaving them stuck in-system with no fuel on a dry world and no GG
in-system) fill with clock work TL 20+ items.
The look on thier faces when the peddle power ships boat was found will
never be forgoten.

All I can say is that drinking and RPGing don't mix.

Wayne Ewart
wewart@home.com
ICQ 22113294

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:02:53 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: System Building

I am going to write a program to generate entire systems on a sector level.
Does anyone know of any alternate system generation rules that might be similar
to the alternate world generation rules found at this address...

http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/house/altWorldGeneration.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:11:26 EDT
From: Caecillus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Japanese and German traveller query

Hello,

I'm one of the owners of all this german traveller books. What can I do for 
you?

Ralf

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:19:18 -0700
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

Not sure, but IIRC your thinking of HMS Victory

> >So, can anyone help me out and remember the English sailing ship that did
> >stay in service for around 300 years ?
> >Was it perhaps "Le Rose" or one of those other ships from AH's Kingmaker
?
>
>   It almost certainly wasn't a warship then - design changed too much from
> 1600 to 1900, or even 1550 to 1850.
>
Wayne Ewart

wewart@home.com
ICQ 22113294

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:40:48 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

>>>> (begin quoted material)
Joseph wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
On the other hand, a system with multiple type A starports
on several bodies in the system, with a system poplulation in the
millions or billions, perhaps Rich or Industrial, with a nich high
tech
level, you would need a huge enemy fleet investing each of the places
with starports since new fighting hulls could be produced or
jury-rigged
in fairly short order.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is the kind of system where seiges happen, just because it's so 
valuable that it will be able to afford plenty of defenses.

"Short Order" for Traveller starship construction is measured in
months
and years. Repair and resupply, now...

Walt Smith
>>>> (end quoted material)
For new construction from the keel up, yes a ship would take months or
years.  On ther other hand, jury-rigged conversions of existing ships
would be much quicker.  For example, a number of the early aircraft
carriers were merchant hulls that were already largely complete, and
slapped a big flat deck on top and rerouted the smoke stacks to the
side.  This got them ready in a few months rather than multi-years. 
These converted ships were quickly superseded by purpose-built ships,
but provided the quick fix needed.

I can see a starport under seige conditions do conversions of ships
already on the ways, and even some already running ships to make more
combat vessels.  Some conversions, like putting a couple of 50dton
fighters in a subsidized merchant and launching them out the bow and
stern loading doors, would take perhaps a week or two to implement. 
converting a larger merchant by adding turrets to empty hardpoints
should take a few days.  Adding hardpoints and computer support on a
larger merchant may take a few weeks or months to do.  Stuffing a bay
weapon (or to be ridiculous, a spinal mount) into a larger merchant
would probably take quite a bit longer, but might well be quicker than
building a ground-up military vessel.

I suspect this would be more common for smaller polities, since the 3I
seems to have a policy of just giving ground slowly until the
reinforcements arrive.  A smaller polity (the Darrians say) don't have
that much ground to give up, and may encourage merchants to have a full
complement of hardpoints, even if they don't have turrets fitted
normally.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:42:49 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

Charles Prevatte wrote:
> 
> >Wow, I thought that they worked on charts.  At any rate what would the Virus
> >do if it infected a computer and then someone linked to it though a neural
> >jack?
> >-Stephen
> >
> 
> There were cyber zombies in the adventure in vampire fleets.  I do not
> recall how they came about exactly but they were there.
> 
> Charles L.

Actually there was adiscussion _somewhere_ maybe in Challenge about what
would happen to people jacke into a computer that Virus took over. It
would not be pretty.

The 'borgs in Vampire Fleets were created on Promise from prisoners
mated to robot control brains in the hospital one of the Promise
Vampires had taken over.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:53:09 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

Wayne Ewart wrote:
> 
>
> It been done, I had my PC find an Ancients site(after a fun miss jump, and
> leaving them stuck in-system with no fuel on a dry world and no GG
> in-system) fill with clock work TL 20+ items.
> The look on thier faces when the peddle power ships boat was found will
> never be forgoten.
> 
> All I can say is that drinking and RPGing don't mix.

Oh, but they do, often delightfully...it's just the next morning you
find it hard to figure out just exactly what you did or why...;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:47:20 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Step one:  Name a chemical or compound that changes it's electical and
physical properties from non solid to solid and non conductor to conductor
on demand or at all for that matter without changing it's chemical composition.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'll trade it to you for the manufacturing process for Bonded Superdense.
Non-solid to solid? How about gel to gel+3D computer matrix?
And why can't it involve non-permanent chemical composition changes?
I haven't specified the tool or procedure for configuring this system.

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Even then you are limited by the speed of light in a conducter and the
switching speed of your gates.  We are up agaist those walls today.  With
processor becoming more complex with more gates and connections the signals have to travel farther and the speed of light becomes a limiting facter.
Even operating voltages place limits on such thing as track spacing which in
turn place limits on curcuit spacing and minimum distance a signal must
travel to reach the next logic gate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ah, the quantum limits of computer science! So at worst, my idea would
be as bad as the absolute best possible computer that could be built.
Darn. <G>

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
DOS stands for disk operating system.  It's the basic IO bridge
functionality.  All computers have some version of a 'DOS' if it has any
connections to the real world and this can do usefull work.  It may not be
call DOS but the functionallity is there.  Humans have similer systems like
the visual cortex.  It is not wise to make fun of things you do not
understand.  It reflects badly on you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You called it DOS. You make yourself sound like a PC dweeb when you're 
explaining the computer systems of the galaxy-spanning Imperium with 
terms like "DOS"...even if it is IDOS instead of MS-DOS. ;-) 

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually it would take a great deal of advancement to allow a sentience to
exist in any computer.  Current systems do not have nearly the power to
support even a rat's mental processes.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Again with the brain chained to late 20th century computer science.

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
But I'll reask the question you did not answer.  Why MUST future computer
change beyond all recongition to suit you?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'd say most others are still recognizing what I'm talking about. 

Nothing MUST change. Some things WILL change over thousands of
years. There are parameters provided to computer technology in the
canonical Third Imperium that are questionable, even ridiculous, if current
theories about trends in computer science continue. We can either
reject everything about CT computer science, or speculate on causes.
If the speculation is interesting, we can have some fun with it and maybe
even generate some nice color pieces or adventure hooks for others
to use.

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>
Where in canon is self reconfiguring conputers?  Book and page please.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Drat, now I have to go look something up. I recall it mentioned in 
TNE (at least), but I'll have to dig it out.

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Anyway reconfigurable computers are here today.  They just do not behave the way you think they do. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Land transport vehicles are here today, they just do not behave as you
think they do. Replaceable rubber tires? Moved by a machine that burns
stuff extracted from the ground? Mass produced by the thousands?
Listen up you speculative fictionist, WAGONS have wooden wheels,
each one is custom made, and they're moved by perfectly good oxen
that eat hay and are produced by breeding!  If you're not talking about
vehicles exactly like our wagons, then you and I can't even TALK to
one another!!"  - Charles' ancestor, c.1200AD   :-)

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 The reconfiguration does not change the basic nature
of there structure it just optomises them.  It will have to remain this way
in the future or you would have no standard to work form to write your
programs.  Programer DO exist in canon.  There are also some ugly trade offs when you drop the reconfiguration below a curtain level.  You end up 
with to much hardware overhead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I've been seeing my matrix model as an optimized processing & memory
module for a set of hardware, perhaps with some data storage capability.
It's customized for the specific environment it works in - much like a
TL15 version of you popping out an Ethernet card and popping in an FDDI
card when you move your server from one environment to another, but
for processor architechture instead of IO.

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Isn't the Traveller universe more interesting if the above is *possible*?
>

No, just much less believable and less playable sence the players and GM
have no common reference points.  Tell me how a computer tech. charater
could even being to discribe in character his actions when your 'magic'
computer is so far beyond the players understanding he does not have words to discibe his actions.

Role playing is then reduced to "I role against my comp-4 skill" instead of
allowing the player the chalendge of trying methods he can name like 'power
on reset', 'disk rebuild', 'boot clean', or 'core dump'.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Geez. Do you have players that are entertained by role-playing the
pushing of a reset button and running Norton Disk Doctor? That sounds
just too damn painful for words.

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
When a player feels confident in his knowledge of what his character can do
then he can act.  When he has to ask what his character knows about a skill he has he drops out of character and you loose a little of the feel of the
world you are trying to play in.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Engineer. Navigator. Robotics. Gravitics. Electronics. Mechanical.
Jack-of-all-Trades. Tactics. Traveller's Computer skill is in good company.

GM's explanation: you have Computer skill. In general, this means
that you can operate, repair, understand, and even (given lots of time)
program computers. Here is a sample list of what you can get computers
to do, given enough processing power and programming time (shows
player list of computer models and programs from the rulebook).  

I don't see the problem. If anything, a player with Computer skill has much
*more* idea of what he can do in a TL15 society than a player with
Electronics skill does, based on background material available in the 
basic rules set.

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Who's to say a comp-6 could not defeat the virus and get the
computer back on line?  Sure he's not 'inside the computer' but then again
the virus is 'in the box' and that PC has access to some very big hammers
and the main fuse boxes!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You can always defeat virus by destroying the computer it lives in.
Now try rebuilding the computer, with no tools that you're sure haven't
been infected.

TNE seemed to say that the lower-tech the computer, the easier it was
to repair. Perhaps TL7 troubleshooting techniques work to defeat
virus on a wide span of tech levels - until the paradigm changes enough
that the TL7 computer theorist is a caveman trying to run a nuclear
power plant.

Just a thought:

Did you ever notice that, in Traveller, the same skill covers operation, 
programming, theory, and repair of computers? Why would that be?
What change would have had to occur in how computers work to
make a programmer have to know how to rebuild a computer, just
to do his job? Or is repairing or rebuilding a TL15 computer never more 
complicated than popping prebuilt modules together?

I realize that Traveller's Computer skill was written to abstract a 
technical skill, and was written with a knowledge of 1970's computer
science. Still, this provides a parameter of how Computers work in
the Traveller setting. What explanation can we come up with for
why a Computer skill has to be so wide-ranging?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:11:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: RE: Modular Cutter

On 05/12/99 18:54:01 you wrote:
>
>
>>I think (hope) that all of those questions will be answered when the Cutter
>>Sourcebook for G:T comes out.  BTW, I should be doing alot of artwork for
>>that as well.
>
>You're making that, up, right?
>
>Bruce
>
	Nope, it's on the submissions "wishlist" at SJG's website.  Sean Punch (GURPS Line Editor) 
is very enthusiastic about it.  I gather he imagines a book full of customized modules, deckplans, 
and background on their uses.  Personally, I'd rather see a book that takes the same approach to 
the Scout/Courier, Free Trader, and Far Trader since these are ships players are much more likely 
to own. *shrug*


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
co-author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:32:49 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops plus Logistics

Walter Smith wrote:

>You think I would have thought of that, what with me having a Fleet
>Logistics variant for High Guard on my web page and all. :-)

Have you played any of the nth Fleet wargames (By Victory Games)? Modern
naval combat rules; but the advanced rules have quite a good logistics
model.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:42:44 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

Frank G. Pitt wrote:

>So, can anyone help me out and remember the English sailing ship that did
>stay in service for around 300 years ?

HMS Victory is still in commission - she's currently flagship of the
Home Fleet. I'm not so certain that it has been a constant commission
since she was launched, though.

>Was it perhaps "Le Rose" or one of those other ships from AH's Kingmaker ?

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:39:02 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

- -----Original Message-----
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 13 May 1999 08:39
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation


>
>>>I suspect she may have been <grin>, but she sunk some 300 years or
>>>more after she was built.
><snip>
>>
>>I think your pinkie was a little eager on the 0 key <g>, nearer *30*
>>years in actual fact.
>
>OK, so it wasn't the Mary Rose, I thought it was.
>( good reference, BTW )
>
>So, can anyone help me out and remember the English sailing ship that
did
>stay in service for around 300 years ?
>Was it perhaps "Le Rose" or one of those other ships from AH's
Kingmaker ?
>
>Frankie
>


Can't help there as I've never heard of a ship being in service such a
long time, unless you are thinking of HMS Victory (Built 1765, still
on the RN's list of Commissioned Ships)

see more details at
http://www.romseynet.org.uk/places/victory/victory.htm

regards

Matt

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
visit my web site =>      www.akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:35:27 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops plus Logistics

Matt Clonfero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Have you played any of the nth Fleet wargames (By Victory Games)? Modern
naval combat rules; but the advanced rules have quite a good logistics
model.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thanks for the idea. I have 6th Fleet and 2nd Fleet by VG, I think I will look 
them over for ideas on combat stores.

I recall a bit from the Star Wars RPG, they note that an X-Wing fighter
has fuel and supplies that will last for days under normal cruising,
but will be expended in minutes of intense combat.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:51:15 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
To: 'TML' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 4:24 PM
Subject: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)


>I appreciate the relative consistency in the Traveller universe. 

Consistency in the Traveller universe? Surely you jest!

>Let's say you've just encountered an alien race that has little concept
>of "One". All things to them are degrees, rather than absolutes, and 
>their computers are built, from theory to practice, on that philosophy.
>Can you imagine such a computer? Would it be possible to build? Could
>it do things a terran binary logic computer can't? 
>
>What if a TL13+ computer can't be built without the breakthrough
>Imperial scientists achieved after analyzing such an alien computer?
>
>Isn't the Traveller universe more interesting if the above is *possible*?


It makes the Traveller universe infinitely more interesting.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
Looking for other Traveller players in your area?
Looking to run a PBEM game? Check out:
http://www.pil.net/~semo

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #619
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 13 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 620



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Computer Technology
New G:T Supplement!!
Re: Deck Plans
Re: Computer Technology
RE: New G:T Supplement!!
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Re: A 12-step program for Virus fans
re: Computer Technology
re: Computer Technology
re: Fleet Ops plus Logistics
Psionic Virus (was Re: A 12-step program ...)
Analog aliens, was Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
re: Analog Aliens
re: Computer Technology

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:56:07 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

Chris Seaman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>I appreciate the relative consistency in the Traveller universe. 

Consistency in the Traveller universe? Surely you jest!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Relative" consistency. Consider what I'm comparing it to: Star Frontiers,
Star Wars RPG, Star Trek...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:03:52 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: New G:T Supplement!!

For those of you who don't regularly visit
SJG's website, "First In" is now available.
Hopefully, it will do for the Scout Service
what G:T Far Trader did for merchants.

Start looking for it at your local stores.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:18:13 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Deck Plans

At 04:23 AM 5/13/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>Also, have any details been published for the (40dton?) heavy fighters that
>>the Tigress and Antiama carry?
>
>Supp. 9: Fighting Ships, p. 26.

You know, I totally missed that...  How embarrassing... :)

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:26:27 -0700
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

> >
> > It been done, I had my PC find an Ancients site(after a fun miss jump,
and
> > leaving them stuck in-system with no fuel on a dry world and no GG
> > in-system) fill with clock work TL 20+ items.
> > The look on thier faces when the peddle power ships boat was found will
> > never be forgoten.
> >
> > All I can say is that drinking and RPGing don't mix.
>
> Oh, but they do, often delightfully...it's just the next morning you
> find it hard to figure out just exactly what you did or why...;-)
>
If only is was the next morning.
My groups games will start on a Friday (all with a good "buzz" going by
10ish) and play through till sunrise or later Sunday(still with a good
"buzz" going) Then it's nap time till X-Files and back to bed.

Wayne Ewart (CT/HG Templer wanna-be)

wewart@home.com
ICQ 22113294

Give a man fire, he'll be warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for life!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:27:31 -0400
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: RE: New G:T Supplement!!

I've already asked mine.  Since they shipped it this week should be next
week or so.

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Smart, David J (David) [mailto:dasmart@lucent.com]
		Sent:	Thursday, May 13, 1999 2:04 PM
		To:	'traveller@mpgn.com'
		Subject:	New G:T Supplement!!

		For those of you who don't regularly visit
		SJG's website, "First In" is now available.
		Hopefully, it will do for the Scout Service
		what G:T Far Trader did for merchants.

		Start looking for it at your local stores.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:35:13 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

- -----Original Message-----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
To: 'TML' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, May 13, 1999 2:12 PM
Subject: re: Computer Technology



>"Relative" consistency. Consider what I'm comparing it to: Star Frontiers,
>Star Wars RPG, Star Trek...


I didn't know that you were comparing it to those three things in particular
;)

Seriously though, I'm a big fan of a *lack* of consistency myself. Then
again, MTU contains biological, dynamically-reconfiguring computers that
taste like trail mix or a fortune cookie when someone dries them out...

(Okay, I borrowed that from Bruce Sterling, but it adds great color to a
campaign... "Damn, we're out of rations and we're stuck here on this planet
until the impies come to rescue us... Let's cook the comp!")

Then again, I've broken nearly every canon law (intentionally or
unintentionally) when running games, so maybe MTU isn't a good example.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:43:02 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

At 01:55 PM 5/13/99 +0100, you wrote:
>At 00:21 14/05/1999 +1200, "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"
><a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:
>>Date sent:      	Thu, 13 May 1999 12:55:33 +0100
>>From:           	Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>>
>>>I just know I'm going to regret this...
>>
>>>So what are the specs?
>>>Well, I may be wrong, but:
>>
>>>	Can change its internal structure.
>>
>>>	Its internal structure depends on its external environment,
>>>	especially its mechanical housing.
>>
>>>	Cannot be reloaded from backup.
>>
>>>	Cannot be copied.
>>
>>>	Can be programmed.
>>
>>>	Programming changes the internal structure.
>>
>>>	Can be affected by viruses. :-)
>>
>>I believe we have such systems now, neural networks
>>
>I believe that currently they fail Charles' requirements because they
>can be copied and reloaded from backup, thus negating the Virus.
>
>Phil Kitching
>--

That's part of the problem in this whole mess.  It's not my requirements.  I
just want whatever it ends up to fit canon without having to toss out reason
to believe it.  The available canon does not leave a lot of wiggle room.
Until virus I could have cared less what the nature of the traveller
computers was.  As far as I was concurned it was a mainframe that did what
was needed but with virus and the need for PCs to interact with it, even
just to fight it, it became necessary to define the 'playing field' that the
contest was to take place on.  

It would be grossly unfair to put PCs against the virus without knowing what
was and was not posible and to be able to deal with the players actions in a
logical, consistent, and fair way.  If I as GM do not know viruses limits
how can I play it as an NPC?

If it's psionic what is the range of it's 'possess computer core' power?
How mant psi points does it take?  How many does the virus have?  Is it
dependant on the coputer's size?  Is the virus' IQ based on the computer's
size?  The single most important NPC type in the era is almost totally
undefined.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:43:13 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-step program for Virus fans

At 03:15 PM 5/13/99 +0200, you wrote:
>I've been skipping this discussion but a remark caught my attention. I
>apologise if I'm making a point someone else has already made.
>
>Charles Prevatte writes:
>>You (the TMLers, not you alone) have been proposing some very strange
>>technology to make your assumptions of how the virus works valid and
>>posible.
>
>That, IMO, is their mistake. Virus is a plot device. It shouldn't be
>explained, just described. To me, Virus is a magic... sorry, I meant
>psionic, of course... entity with some well-defined behaviour rules
>to let me know how it works in a campaign.
>
>Psionics is the magic of the Traveller universe. You don't have to
>explain WHY psionics works, you just have to describe HOW it works.
>
>I have some trouble with one particular aspect of the Virus story, but
>that pertains to various human deeds and reactions that I find flat out
>implausible. Virus itself don't need justification. It's a given 
>
>
>
>      Hans Rancke
>University of Copenhagen
>     rancke@diku.dk
>------------
>        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
>         events based on the individual situation."
>                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8
>

OK, I could live with that if the limits of that power is defined.

How far away does this psionic power work?  Point's require to posess a
computer on a given size?  Points available to the virus to use this power?
Time it takes to recover thos points once used?

With that infomation, the virus can be put against PCs and the GM will be
able to play the virus fairly.

But this begs the questions, if it is psionic:

Will a psishield stop it?

Can a psi fight it?

Why does it need the transponder at all?  

Why is an isolated computer immune?

Why is a computer without a transponder take longer to take over?

Why does it need a com connection?

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:43:24 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

At 10:38 AM 5/13/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>They would be analog computers, yes they can do things that binary
>computers don't do well or can't do. The Norden bombsight referred to
>earlier in this discussion was an analog computer...so is a slide rule.
>
>Some years ago there was an article in Scientific American about simple
>analog computers that solved quite hard problems...and I mean simple:
>they were literally built from Tinkertoys!
>
>One, IIRC it was in either the Amateur Scientist or Mathematical
>Recreations column, showed an analog computer that solved shortest-path
>problems using nothing more than string, rubberbands and wooden pegs on
>pegboard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>One word: WOW.
>
>I'm imagining a group of these analog-minded sophonts building 
>tinkertoy-like (orrery-like?) computers at TL 1. 
>
>(Cut to Walt scribbling away notes for a new Contact! article...)
>
>Walt Smith
>

I've got even more news for you.  Babage's difference engine could in theory
have been built with only water power and medevil metalurgy.  It was just a
very complecated clock after all.

A slide rule could be built by nearly any tool using people that can do math.

Give them paper and watch out!  

High tech. cave men with running water and indoor plumbing!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:54:21 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I've got even more news for you.  Babage's difference engine could in theory
have been built with only water power and medevil metalurgy.  It was just a
very complecated clock after all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'd like to take the concept a little bit further. The sophonts in question
don't end up choosing digital computers over analog ones, digital
computers simply never occur to them - the idea of something being
absolutely one thing or the other is just too alien to them. Thus, 
instead of abandoning analog computers, they develop them - even
overdevelop them. To them, thinking in this form is normal, their computer
theory won't have an absolutist logic at it's base.

A supercomputer is just a very complicated adding machine. What would
these sophonts' "very complicated clocks" be capable of after 1000 years
of development?

I've been thinking about these critters for a bit, trying to figure out what
their technology would be like. They may be a bit too alien, though - 
just trying to understand their concept of scientific method drives me nuts.

Hey, look at me, I'm live-action roleplaying an IISS Sophontologist!! :)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:07:31 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops plus Logistics

>I recall a bit from the Star Wars RPG, they note that an X-Wing fighter
>has fuel and supplies that will last for days under normal cruising,
              ^^^^^^^^
>but will be expended in minutes of intense combat.


Yeah, I went through an entire bag of Doritos the other night while playing
X-Wing Alliance on the PC. ;-P

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:25:42 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Psionic Virus (was Re: A 12-step program ...)

>OK, I could live with that if the limits of that power is defined.
>
>How far away does this psionic power work?

The range of a communicator or hard-wired network. It is not telepathic,
but must work through a carrier signal like a transponder or modem.


>Point's require to posess a computer on a given size?
>Points available to the virus to use this power? Time
>it takes to recover thos points once used?

It doesn't use psi points as characters do ...

or

It does, but you don't need to worry about it (cause it's a plot device).
Kind of like a major deity in AD&D ...

or

However many you want to give it as a referee.


>With that infomation, the virus can be put against PCs and the GM will be
>able to play the virus fairly.

How so? It's sole psi power is limited to infecting other systems and
reproducing itself.


>But this begs the questions, if it is psionic:
>Will a psishield stop it?

Only if the psi shield stops a radio carrier signal (it doesn't use
traditional telepathy "mind-control waves," whatever *those* are).


>Can a psi fight it?

Possibly, if he has computer empathy and other unspecified powers (as left
open to the Referee in the TNE rules).
Maybe a templar chaplain can cast a rite of exorcism. ;-)


>Why does it need the transponder at all?

This is it's medium of possession. Not all psionic powers are telepathy.


>Why is an isolated computer immune?

'Cause not all psionic powers are telepathy.


>Why is a computer without a transponder take longer to take over?

I dunno about that.


>Why does it need a com connection?

'Cause not all psionic powers are telepathy. ;-)

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:43:21 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Analog aliens, was Re: Computer Technology

Walter Smith wrote:
> 
> I'd like to take the concept a little bit further. The sophonts in question
> don't end up choosing digital computers over analog ones, digital
> computers simply never occur to them - the idea of something being
> absolutely one thing or the other is just too alien to them. Thus,
> instead of abandoning analog computers, they develop them - even
> overdevelop them. To them, thinking in this form is normal, their computer
> theory won't have an absolutist logic at it's base.


> I've been thinking about these critters for a bit, trying to figure out what
> their technology would be like. They may be a bit too alien, though -
> just trying to understand their concept of scientific method drives me nuts.


One immediate physical characteristic stands out to me: they won't have
individual digits in their manipulative organs, perhaps just variable
size tentacles extruded from their body as needed for manipulation. 

All math ultimately derives from counting on your fingers; _counting_
may well be foreign to them. Only varying degrees of 'many-ness'

That makes understanding them hard...yes my head hurts after a little
while here. 

They wouldn't have set theory, either, as that also involves a binary
distinction. They may well have developed it by the time they arrive at
starflight (if they do), it will be as hard to them as stuff like
quantum physics is to most of us...things like binary logic and set
theory do not operate on 'common sense' rules to them.

Their language would probably be a contiuous modulated tone, if they use
sound to communicate. Ideas would be communicated by the frequency,
amplitude and most importantly, rate of change if the tone. They could
likely communicate to each other simultaneously, in a multiplex fashion,
using differing base frequencies. For color, no pun intended, they could
also use color changes and patterns as a component of commmunication,
much like certain species of squids apparently do. 

There, we have a nickname for them...Squids, though they'll likely be
more like large intelligent amoebas.

The IISS will go NUTS trying to translate their communications.

 
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:44:48 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

Wayne Ewart wrote:
> 

> If only is was the next morning.
> My groups games will start on a Friday (all with a good "buzz" going by
> 10ish) and play through till sunrise or later Sunday(still with a good
> "buzz" going) Then it's nap time till X-Files and back to bed.

Ouch! I'm not a young man anymore...more importantly, I don't have a
young liver anymore ;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:22:14 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Analog Aliens

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
Their language would probably be a contiuous modulated tone, if they use
sound to communicate. Ideas would be communicated by the frequency,
amplitude and most importantly, rate of change if the tone. They could
likely communicate to each other simultaneously, in a multiplex fashion,
using differing base frequencies. For color, no pun intended, they could
also use color changes and patterns as a component of commmunication,
much like certain species of squids apparently do. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thanks for the post, Bruce - I hadn't twigged on the lack of countable
manipulatory appendages.

My original idea for these guys started with an old sketch of a critter with
a big eye. My thought was that they would communicate with continuously
changing color patterns in the eye itself, with massive amounts of
information being communicated at any time - a necessity if your world
concepts are all matters of degree, you can't answer any questions
with Yes or No. I don't know that communication would necessarily
be slow, just (to humans) agonizingly complete.

Intelligent amoeboids - makes me think of the Rame from SPI's 
_Starforce_ universe. The Rame were groupmind creatures, though -
but I have an idea that these analog aliens might *seem* like groupmind
creatures to an IISS First Contact team. They don't communicate in
symbols, they communicate in entire concept structures, with the
meaning interactively changing as it's presented (due to the continuous
response of the "speaker" to the communications of the "listeners").

Imagine standing up and declaring, "Kissenger's _On Diplomacy_" - 
and in stating that, you've transmitted the core ideas of the book, your
emotional state regarding the ideas, and your responses to the
audiences' critiques of both the core ideas and your attempts to relate
the ideas to your worldview. Now imagine that every instance of
communication in your society occurs on that level.

They could probably fill a hospital ship with the IISS linguists driven
nuts over these sophonts... :-)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:47:54 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

At 12:47 PM 5/13/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Step one:  Name a chemical or compound that changes it's electical and
>physical properties from non solid to solid and non conductor to conductor
>on demand or at all for that matter without changing it's chemical composition.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I'll trade it to you for the manufacturing process for Bonded Superdense.
>Non-solid to solid? How about gel to gel+3D computer matrix?
>And why can't it involve non-permanent chemical composition changes?
>I haven't specified the tool or procedure for configuring this system.
>

Good point.  I give you that one.

>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Even then you are limited by the speed of light in a conducter and the
>switching speed of your gates.  We are up agaist those walls today.  With
>processor becoming more complex with more gates and connections the signals
have to travel farther and the speed of light becomes a limiting facter.
>Even operating voltages place limits on such thing as track spacing which in
>turn place limits on curcuit spacing and minimum distance a signal must
>travel to reach the next logic gate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Ah, the quantum limits of computer science! So at worst, my idea would
>be as bad as the absolute best possible computer that could be built.
>Darn. <G>
>

No actually you're techniques overhead would increase path length over
purpose built arcitexture.

>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>DOS stands for disk operating system.  It's the basic IO bridge
>functionality.  All computers have some version of a 'DOS' if it has any
>connections to the real world and this can do usefull work.  It may not be
>call DOS but the functionallity is there.  Humans have similer systems like
>the visual cortex.  It is not wise to make fun of things you do not
>understand.  It reflects badly on you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>You called it DOS. You make yourself sound like a PC dweeb when you're 
>explaining the computer systems of the galaxy-spanning Imperium with 
>terms like "DOS"...even if it is IDOS instead of MS-DOS. ;-) 
>

It is DOS.  DOS is a generic term referring to ANY disk operating system and
it is often used to refer to the entire IO interface functality even though
operating system is the better term.  It is an industry standard term.  Like
serial, ROM, and RAM.  Note also that unix the operating system for many
main frames is also a form of a DOS.

>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Actually it would take a great deal of advancement to allow a sentience to
>exist in any computer.  Current systems do not have nearly the power to
>support even a rat's mental processes.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Again with the brain chained to late 20th century computer science.
>
>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>But I'll reask the question you did not answer.  Why MUST future computer
>change beyond all recongition to suit you?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I'd say most others are still recognizing what I'm talking about. 
>
>Nothing MUST change. Some things WILL change over thousands of
>years. There are parameters provided to computer technology in the
>canonical Third Imperium that are questionable, even ridiculous, if current
>theories about trends in computer science continue. We can either
>reject everything about CT computer science, or speculate on causes.
>If the speculation is interesting, we can have some fun with it and maybe
>even generate some nice color pieces or adventure hooks for others
>to use.
>
>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Where in canon is self reconfiguring conputers?  Book and page please.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Drat, now I have to go look something up. I recall it mentioned in 
>TNE (at least), but I'll have to dig it out.
>
>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Anyway reconfigurable computers are here today.  They just do not behave
the way you think they do. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>"Land transport vehicles are here today, they just do not behave as you
>think they do. Replaceable rubber tires? Moved by a machine that burns
>stuff extracted from the ground? Mass produced by the thousands?
>Listen up you speculative fictionist, WAGONS have wooden wheels,
>each one is custom made, and they're moved by perfectly good oxen
>that eat hay and are produced by breeding!  If you're not talking about
>vehicles exactly like our wagons, then you and I can't even TALK to
>one another!!"  - Charles' ancestor, c.1200AD   :-)
>

That is not what I ment.  The nature of the reconfiguration is limited due
to the overhead in the process.  You reach a point of deminishing returns.
This has nothing to do with materials science.  It is a fact of the
implimentation.  To be recongiqurable you mush have a mechanism for that
reconfigurations.  The more complexe and low level the reconfiguration the
more complex and bulky the reconfiguration system.  The bigger the longer
the conductive track and the longer the propagation delay.  Zero sum gain or
perhaps even a performace lose.

>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> The reconfiguration does not change the basic nature
>of there structure it just optomises them.  It will have to remain this way
>in the future or you would have no standard to work form to write your
>programs.  Programer DO exist in canon.  There are also some ugly trade
offs when you drop the reconfiguration below a curtain level.  You end up 
>with to much hardware overhead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I've been seeing my matrix model as an optimized processing & memory
>module for a set of hardware, perhaps with some data storage capability.
>It's customized for the specific environment it works in - much like a
>TL15 version of you popping out an Ethernet card and popping in an FDDI
>card when you move your server from one environment to another, but
>for processor architechture instead of IO.
>

The problem with that analagy is that the equilent of a person who did the
card change must be built into the system.  That is the overhead.  The
reconfig system wil have to be as or more complexe than the processor sence
it has to in effect contain all the possible permutations and or the
capacity to create them.

>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Isn't the Traveller universe more interesting if the above is *possible*?
>>
>
>No, just much less believable and less playable sence the players and GM
>have no common reference points.  Tell me how a computer tech. charater
>could even being to discribe in character his actions when your 'magic'
>computer is so far beyond the players understanding he does not have words
to discibe his actions.
>
>Role playing is then reduced to "I role against my comp-4 skill" instead of
>allowing the player the chalendge of trying methods he can name like 'power
>on reset', 'disk rebuild', 'boot clean', or 'core dump'.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Geez. Do you have players that are entertained by role-playing the
>pushing of a reset button and running Norton Disk Doctor? That sounds
>just too damn painful for words.
>

So does having a expert only able to exercise his expertese by dice roling.
I prefer to role the dice as little as posible in a game.  I prefer the
players to think and act not depend on the dice.  Add the reset and rebuild
can be quite interesting when there is only barely enough time to fix the
problem before the ships burns up in reentry.  Say there is enough time for
three tries.  What three ways are you going to try?  Can you learn enough on
the first two so the third will work?  Can the ex-marine fight his way pass
the virus infected steward robot in time to set the charge on the
transponder so that you last attempt has some chance to succeed?

>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>When a player feels confident in his knowledge of what his character can do
>then he can act.  When he has to ask what his character knows about a skill
he has he drops out of character and you loose a little of the feel of the
>world you are trying to play in.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Engineer. Navigator. Robotics. Gravitics. Electronics. Mechanical.
>Jack-of-all-Trades. Tactics. Traveller's Computer skill is in good company.
>
>GM's explanation: you have Computer skill. In general, this means
>that you can operate, repair, understand, and even (given lots of time)
>program computers. Here is a sample list of what you can get computers
>to do, given enough processing power and programming time (shows
>player list of computer models and programs from the rulebook).  
>
>I don't see the problem. If anything, a player with Computer skill has much
>*more* idea of what he can do in a TL15 society than a player with
>Electronics skill does, based on background material available in the 
>basic rules set.
>

It's the difference between speaking in charater and saying I have comp-3
what is my target number for this task.  Now THAT is boreing!

>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Who's to say a comp-6 could not defeat the virus and get the
>computer back on line?  Sure he's not 'inside the computer' but then again
>the virus is 'in the box' and that PC has access to some very big hammers
>and the main fuse boxes!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>You can always defeat virus by destroying the computer it lives in.
>Now try rebuilding the computer, with no tools that you're sure haven't
>been infected.
>
>TNE seemed to say that the lower-tech the computer, the easier it was
>to repair. Perhaps TL7 troubleshooting techniques work to defeat
>virus on a wide span of tech levels - until the paradigm changes enough
>that the TL7 computer theorist is a caveman trying to run a nuclear
>power plant.
>
>Just a thought:
>

It's just as likely that hacker evolve with the computers so that by TL13
the virus is not up to snuff.

>Did you ever notice that, in Traveller, the same skill covers operation, 
>programming, theory, and repair of computers? Why would that be?
>What change would have had to occur in how computers work to
>make a programmer have to know how to rebuild a computer, just
>to do his job? Or is repairing or rebuilding a TL15 computer never more 
>complicated than popping prebuilt modules together?
>

Or it could be an oversimplified game mechanic.  If it were not there would
be a separate skill list for specialists.  There is not so they just chose
to use very broad catagories.  It prabably is for the best that they did.
With the few skills the most traveller characters have they would not be
able to do much if the skills were narrowly defined.

Now in GT they are narrowly definded.  A computer operations skill would let
a person run a ship's computer but unless his skill was master level or
above he would have no chance against the virus.

Computer programing skill would let him know that he was fighting a virus
and give him a fighting chance.  His skill vs the viruses to gain temperary
control and take an action.  The virus would have a skill in the 20+ range
and be able to take a lot of actions for every one the programer tries.
Like opening the airlocks to prevent another attempt.

A cyber jock with a hot ROM deck and an enviromental interface could face
the virus on almost even terms.  With SOTA military Ultra back combat
software he'd be in good shape.  Such a person should be able to completely
clean nearly any system given time but there are very few of these arround.
This would be a 200+ point character.

An electronics engineer would attack the problem in a completely different way. 
Assuming that the virus reconfigured the system as we have been discussing:
He'd pull the plug, manually reset the system, and phyiscally lock the
configurasion before rebooting.  In effect reducing the systems TL and
making the system immune to the virus.  This would slow the system way way
down but if you had to you could batch proccess your programs on a as needed
basis.  This would get you back to base were you could bebuild your ships
systems with many smaller less powerfull units to prevent the virus from
ever waking up.

Or he'd set up a watchdog circuit that would recycle any sub-processor that
tried to execute any code he had not personally CRCed and flaged.  In effect
a non distructive firewall.  By watching the hit rates he could box the
virus in, back to it's seed or fort and lazer torch that subsystem.

A GURPs psi with machine psionics skills could 'mind wipe' the virus.

A GURPS technomage could exercise it or make it his slave!

GURPS gives you more skills but narrowly defined.  It's aa matter of taste
as to which you like.  I like both GURPS an CT.  I think GURPS better
reflect how people learn and use skills but CT is a lot faster it play.

>I realize that Traveller's Computer skill was written to abstract a 
>technical skill, and was written with a knowledge of 1970's computer
>science. Still, this provides a parameter of how Computers work in
>the Traveller setting. What explanation can we come up with for
>why a Computer skill has to be so wide-ranging?
>

Taveller trades realisim for a simpler mechanic.  It replaces many separate
skills with one.  Like mechanic, there is a lot of ground under that one.
It does not say anything about the computers any more that physian says
about the human body.

Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #620
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 13 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 621



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Base Codes
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
RE: Modular Cutter
Re: Computer Technology
RE: Modular Cutter
Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...)
Re: Analog Aliens
Re: 3I raising military forces
Re: FW: Jupiter's Supersonic Winds
Re: Japanese and German traveller query
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: 3I raising military forces
Re: 3I raising military forces
Re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
re: Computer Technology
Re: Analog Aliens
Re: Kuiper belters (was: cheap ways of getting fuel...)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 21:58:46 +0100
From: "Nicholas Wright" <Nick@corlecca.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

>>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>>Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation
>...
>>So, can anyone help me out and remember the English sailing ship that did
>>stay in service for around 300 years ?
>>Was it perhaps "Le Rose" or one of those other ships from AH's Kingmaker ?
>
>  It almost certainly wasn't a warship then - design changed too much from
>1600 to 1900, or even 1550 to 1850.
>

Try the following site for the ships at Portsmouth.

http://www.stvincent.ac.uk/1797/Victory/

I remain etc etc

Nick Wright

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:15:38 -0700
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

> Ouch! I'm not a young man anymore...more importantly, I don't have a
> young liver anymore ;-)

The liver died on me about a year after joining the navy(some time back in
the 80's, its all kind of a blure)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:17:16 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

Charles said:
> It is DOS.  DOS is a generic term referring to ANY disk operating system and
> it is often used to refer to the entire IO interface functality even though
> operating system is the better term.  It is an industry standard term.  Like
> serial, ROM, and RAM.  Note also that unix the operating system for many
> main frames is also a form of a DOS.

Charles, you're showing a bias towards a very old set of 
"industry standard terms". Even today, we're moving away from 
the term "DOS" to mean "operating system" precisely because 
the OS (the modern preferred term) does, as you say, include 
a lot of non-disk functionality. Hence "MacOS" rather than 
"MacDOS". 

I doubt there will be very many spinning mechanical devices 
involved in a TL 12+ computer, and the term "DOS" will be lost
in the mists of history. 

Charles, you may not recognize a TL 12 computer for what it
is. It may well work on principles that you and I don't understand.
I'm not saying that they *will* be so very different; I'm saying
that they *may* be. If you disagree with this point, then we don't
have anything else to say to each other.

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:21:48 +0100
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Base Codes

I am currently working on a new version of World Builder Deluxe. A minor
addition to the new version will be the inclusion of Base Codes for Worlds.
I however, do not have a comprehensive list of codes and would be obliged if
someone could provide me with one.

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:36:24 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 06:28 PM 5/13/99 +1200, you wrote:
>>Got any 8 inch disks or reel to reels in there?  I still do.
>
>I had an 8-inch disk drive once, but the only reel-to-reels I had were audio
>tapes, on an old Phillips. none of the specialist ones.

All I have to say is: Punch Cards.  :)

Yes, I've used them once.  Yes, it was on an actual in-use machine (not in
a museum or something).  Yes, I was five years old at the time, why?

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- -- 
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:08:33 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Modular Cutter

Ah, no.  It's been announced on SJG's site recently and I'd known about the
project directly from Loren for more than a month.

Jesse




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Bruce Macintosh
> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 6:54 PM
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: RE: Modular Cutter
>
>
>
> >I think (hope) that all of those questions will be answered when
> the Cutter
> >Sourcebook for G:T comes out.  BTW, I should be doing alot of artwork for
> >that as well.
>
> You're making that, up, right?
>
> Bruce
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:51:38 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

- -----Original Message-----
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, May 13, 1999 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: Computer Technology




>Charles, you may not recognize a TL 12 computer for what it
>is. It may well work on principles that you and I don't understand.
>I'm not saying that they *will* be so very different; I'm saying
>that they *may* be. If you disagree with this point, then we don't
>have anything else to say to each other.


No way. I was at a computer show, and I was checking out some TL 12
computers. They weren't all that special...

Oh... Wait a second... I was just informed that they *weren't* actually TL
12. They were merely Pentium IIs marked up. It was the "Makhidkarun Inside"
sticker on the outside of the case that fooled me. My apologies.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:12:38 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Modular Cutter

Maybe that's a subject that be done in the future.  Have you considered
breeching the subject with Loren?  I'd love to see (and illustrate :)
in-depth studies of each of the major ship lines that are in common use by
adventurers.

Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of
> jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 10:11 AM
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: RE: Modular Cutter
>
>
> On 05/12/99 18:54:01 you wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I think (hope) that all of those questions will be answered
> when the Cutter
> >>Sourcebook for G:T comes out.  BTW, I should be doing alot of
> artwork for
> >>that as well.
> >
> >You're making that, up, right?
> >
> >Bruce
> >
> 	Nope, it's on the submissions "wishlist" at SJG's website.
> Sean Punch (GURPS Line Editor)
> is very enthusiastic about it.  I gather he imagines a book full
> of customized modules, deckplans,
> and background on their uses.  Personally, I'd rather see a book
> that takes the same approach to
> the Scout/Courier, Free Trader, and Far Trader since these are
> ships players are much more likely
> to own. *shrug*
>
>
> ------------------
> Jim MacLean
> Economist, Traveller Fan
> co-author GT: Far Trader
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:04:10 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...)

Thu, 13 May 1999 01:26:09 -0400, Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
>>Buy contemporary standards.  But remember that even a 1G ship
>>has _enormous_ acceleration by contemporary standards.

>A 1G ship at full thrust takes about 7 days, one way in our
>system. The ship can't maintain the same velocity within the
>belt, though, since it has to match velocities with the objects
>it's moving in. Try sticking a thruster pack on an snowball when
>you're speeding past it at 10 km/sec some time. <g> (Kuiper
>belters only *think* they're supermen).

The ship will match the orbital velocity of objects at that
distance when it firsts gets out there.  The it only has
to work its way along the orbit.  (Though a ship at 1 G
can match velocity with something going 10 km/sec in 16
minutes).

>>If they have a normal distribution in sizes and based on
>>some recent estimates of the amount of mass out there, they
>>won't be that hard to find.

>A distribution where frequency decreases exponentially with
>increasing size is more likely.

I meant "normal" compared with the distribution of meteorites
in the solar system (though these guys are not as likely to
be "ground up" by collisions as objects in the inner solar system).
If you apply what is known about the likely distribution of sizes
and the amound of material that is thought to be out there,
objects in a decent size range shouldn't be that rare (remember
if an object only has a density of 0.1 g/cc, then a 10 meter
object will have a mass of 400 tons.).
After all, only a _very_ small number of Kuiper objects come
in as comets, but comets thought to be derived from the Kuiper
belt are not _that_ rare.

>>In GT, just one thruster module will give a 1000 ton chunck of
>>ice (over 100 >dtons of fule) 0.04 G of accel.  That can
>>give it a 10 km/s change in velocity (more than its orbital
>>velocity) in less than a day.  (which is way overkill)
>
>A 1000 ton object is going to be around a few meters in diameter.
>The several-km sized objects visible from earth with present sensors are a
>billion times more massive: good luck pushing those around with a few
>thrusters.

Actually it doesnt really matter.  You have to use more thrusters,
but the amount of material you deliver is proportionally more...

You either can just take the smaller
objects (which we both agree are more common) or you can take
bigger ones less often.  My guess is that you would start
off by pushing in smaller ones to start up cash flow.  Then
you might look to just push in a big on now and then so
you don't have to deal with so many objects.

>In the meantime, it still takes on the order of
>decades for an unpowered fall into the inner system once you do
>nudge your snowball. (Halley's comet takes nearly 40 years from
>somewhat closer than the Kuiper belt, IIRC)

Which is why you give it small steady thrust.  0.004 G will get
it in in less than a year.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:20:36 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

Walter Smith wrote:
> 

> My original idea for these guys started with an old sketch of a critter with
> a big eye. My thought was that they would communicate with continuously
> changing color patterns in the eye itself, with massive amounts of
> information being communicated at any time - a necessity if your world
> concepts are all matters of degree, you can't answer any questions
> with Yes or No. I don't know that communication would necessarily
> be slow, just (to humans) agonizingly complete.

Have you mentioned these on the list before? I'm getting a really strong
feeling of deja vu here...I've heard of something very much like that
before...


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:23:12 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

- ----------
> From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces
> Date: Thursday, 13 May, 1999 6:46 AM
> 
> At 09:13 12/05/1999, "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
> >At 08:48 PM 5/9/99 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> >>brigade, or they won't do a damn bit of good.  Witness the US Army's
> >>"regimental" system.  A regiment can have battalions in three different
> >>divisions and detailers make no particular effort to keep soldiers in
the
> >>same regiment from tour to tour.  Utterly worthless except to give
soldiers
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>another patch to wear.
> >
> >Actually, I'd keep the brigades mixed.  A soldier will serve his entire
> >career in the same regiment, but have battalions of different regiments
in
>                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >a brigade encourages competition.
> 
> I'm not sure, but you seem to be both saying the same thing, ie assigned
> permanently to the same regiment but with changing higher command
> structure.


Exactly.  It's OK for a regiment to be split between brigades , but what is
a problem is having troops move from regiment to regiment with each
transfer as they apparently do in the US Army.  

Let me give some context.  I'm not a veteran, but I sit in a discussion
panel on military manpower issues. We just recently (last week) talked with
GEN Shy Meyer, who instituted the regimental system in the US Army.  He was
thoroughly unhappy with the fact that detailers don't even make an effort
to send troops back to the same regiment from tour to tour. Maybe that's
changed since he left the Army, but I'd be surprised.

Assuming troops remain in the same regiment for their entire career,
spreading that regiment around isn't a major problem, although it seems to
run contrary to the established Traveler cannon.  The 4518th is clearly a
single regiment, but then again it's not really IA.   the 1188th Lift
Infantry Regiment is also well known, and clearly went into action as a
body. 

Tom Schoene
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:45:12 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: FW: Jupiter's Supersonic Winds

> From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>

Thanks!  That's going into my file under "atmosphere" (i.e., mood).  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:01:27 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Japanese and German traveller query

At 02:14 PM 5/13/99 +0100, tc wrote:
<SNIP>...
>Traveller Regelbuch  (the main rule book)
>Traveller II: Soldner, Scouts & Handelsprinzen
>Kauffahrer und Kanonenboote  (Supp 7:  Traders and Gunboats)
>Tierbegegnungen   (Supp 2: Animal Encounters)
>Foschungsstation Gamm (Ad 2: Research Station Gamma)
>Nomaden des Weltenmeeres (Ad 9: Nomads of the World Ocean)
>Gefangniswelt (Ad 8: Prison Planet)
>Zweilichtberg (Ad 3: Twiglet's Peak)
>Die Geheimnisvollen (Ad 12: Secrets of the Ancients)
>and three double adventures:
>Nacht der Entsheidung/Ein Gott greift ein
>Die Chamax-Pest/Schreckenshorde
>Argon Gambit/Station des Todes
>

No good with typos, but some of these titles have a nice ring to them in
German, don't they?



Bill Rutherford
worj@erols.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:23:34 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

Juliean Galak wrote:
>  
> All I have to say is: Punch Cards.  :)
> 
> Yes, I've used them once.  Yes, it was on an actual in-use machine (not in
> a museum or something).  Yes, I was five years old at the time, why?

Hah! A mere rugrat you are...I learned _programming_ using punchcards
and Fortran...(back when it was Threetran ;-) A buddy of mine wrote a
D&D dungeon generator, complete with extensive random encounter and
treasure tables on the ol' Convex. That was about a six-foot stack of
punchcards by the time he was sort of done. He had it mostly debugged
before RL intervened. He was, like Roderick, a magnificent DM and
innovator cut down in his prime by a legal career...;->

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:00:48
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

At 11:46 AM 5/13/99 +0100, you wrote:

>It all depends on what you see as the largest tactical unit. For large scale
>actions (eg WWII) it might be the division. For smaller scale actions
>(eg shipboard marines) it could even be the company or platoon.
>
>If the unit is too large, you could end up having to deploy several
>BatRons of Tigresses into an area just the keep the Marines together.

I was talking about the Imperial Army in this example.  The Marines
regularly deploy as single platoons, and the highest level of orginazation
they have is the Regiment.  The Marine Regiments are tied to a numbered
fleet, and more loosely to that fleet's subsector.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:01:34
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

At 06:23 PM 5/13/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Assuming troops remain in the same regiment for their entire career,
>spreading that regiment around isn't a major problem, although it seems to
>run contrary to the established Traveler cannon.  The 4518th is clearly a
>single regiment, but then again it's not really IA.   the 1188th Lift
>Infantry Regiment is also well known, and clearly went into action as a
>body. 

IIRC, the 1188th was a mercenary unit.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:24:56
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: 3I Raising Military Forces

At 08:44 PM 5/12/99 -0700, you wrote:

>I don't know about anyone else, but I would very much appreciate it if you
>could discuss the various levels of regiment, division, battalion, etc, in
>how they relate to one another, what sizes they might be, etc. What is the
>level that the typical soldier considers to be "my unit"? I also wonder
>how these units get their numerical designations and names - does the
>existence of the 101st imply the existence of the 1st through 100th? Are
>certain numbers traditionally associated with certain types of units?
>
>Any light you could throw on this stuff would help me in creating a more
>realistic TU and character backgrounds.

This is for US Army infantry units, as those are what I'm familiar with.

Fire Team.

4-5 men, led by a Corporal (E-4) or Sergeant (E-5) The base unit of combat,
the team exists to service a support weapon, either a M-60 LMG, or the
M-249 SAW.

Squad.

2 Fire teams, led by a Sergeant or Staff Sergeant (E-6) The smallest
maneuver unit.  The squad leader usually has one trooper assigned as his
radio operator.

Platoon.

3-4 Squads, led by a Lieutenant (O-1 or 0-2) assisted by a Sergeant First
Class (E-7).

Company.

3-4 Platoons, led by a Captain (O-3), with the assistance of a First
Sergeant (E-8) Companies are the 'family' of infantry.  90% of the
training, discipline, and day to day life of a soldier is tied up in the
company environment.  Companies have their own supply rooms, and are
expected to take care of most problems without bothering higher headquarters.

Battalion.

4 Companies, plus a HQ company.  Lead by a Lieutenant Colonel (O-5) with a
Command Sergeant Major (E-9) This what FFW considers a factor 1 unit.
About 800 men, several dozen armored vehicles.  Battalions have large
combat support services like mess halls, medical facilities, and organic
mechanics. The battalion is the first number when someone says they are
part of the "3rd of the 75th"

Regiment.

Technically, 3-4 battalions.  This is not used as an organizational level
in the US Army with two exceptions:  The 75th Infantry Regiment (Ranger)
and the 3rd US Infantry (The Old Guard) both have Regimental HQs.

Brigade.

A combined arms group of five or six battalions.  In an Infantry brigade,
you'd find two infantry batts, and armor batt, and artillery batt, and
support batt, and possibly other assets like aviation or engineers.
Commanded by a Colonel (O-6)

Division.

A grouping of several brigades, plus additional artillery and aviation
assets.
- -- 

 Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                    -Adam West, as Batman 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:00:12 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

 SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
><< And don't forget the difference engine.  IIRC They finished it and it
>works.
> I've worked with several of these beasties.  Most people do not know it but
> there are quite a few of this out there in industry or at least they were.
> The problems are implimentation and cost.  They are amazing bits of design
> engineering though.

>What are they?

Mechanical computers. Charles Babbage's one was recently built by the
Science Museum in London. Check out the Gibson (and Sterling?) novel 'The
Difference Engine'.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 00:17:40 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>What are they?
>>-Stephen
>>
>
>There's a LONG list.  Start back with the Nordon bomb sight and the inigma
>device and go up through barber-colmans and moores.  Toss in WW2 TDCs and
>balistic targeting computers and you have a start.  Do not forget the
>difference engine in the smithsonian though or the old mechanical cash
>registers.

The Enigma was Electromechanical, FWIW.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 00:37:40 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> writes:
>I'd like to take the concept a little bit further. The sophonts in question
>don't end up choosing digital computers over analog ones, digital
>computers simply never occur to them - the idea of something being
>absolutely one thing or the other is just too alien to them. Thus,
>instead of abandoning analog computers, they develop them - even
>overdevelop them. To them, thinking in this form is normal, their computer
>theory won't have an absolutist logic at it's base.

Doesn't the Babbage engine use 1 to 10 not 1's and 0's?

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:51:47 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

>Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:22:14 -0400
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Analog Aliens
>
>Imagine standing up and declaring, "Kissinger's _On Diplomacy_" - 
>and in stating that, you've transmitted the core ideas of the book, your
>emotional state regarding the ideas, and your responses to the
>audiences' critiques of both the core ideas and your attempts to relate
>the ideas to your worldview.

It isn't really cool unless they can also convey the subtle humor of its
appearance in _Muppet's_Treasure_Island_...

This idea reminds me a little of the aliens that communicated by allusion
in ST:TNG's "Darmok" episode. Perhaps some "phrases" become standardized
(Done to Death) and are therefore recognizeable to an outside observer when
they recur. Imagine standing up on this list and declaring, "Virus," or
"Drop Tanks," or "the P-word." This could form the beginning of a
translation scheme -- if they didn't declare jihad in return!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:50:47 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Kuiper belters (was: cheap ways of getting fuel...)

On Tue, 11 May 1999
David Summers wrote:
(among other things) 

> Remember, if you can give it a small fraction of a G of
accelation
> for a week, you can make a major change to its orbit and thrust
> is pretty cheap in Traveller.  In GT, just one thruster module
> will give a 1000 ton chunck of ice (over 100 dtons of fule)
> 0.04 G of accel.  That can
> give it a 10 km/s change in velocity (more than its orbital
> velocity) in less than a day.  (which is way overkill)

>10 klick/sec increasing as it falls in.  Though actually,
>since you are going to leave the thruster on there, you might
>as well leave them going.  Make it a 10000 ton chunk of
>ice and let it keep going, it will handily arrive in less
>than a year.
>What you are missing is that the crew doesn't go with it.  They
>send it along unmanned.  The ship takes a week or two to fly
>out to the belt and collects objects, puts little thruster
>packs on them, and starts sending them in on predetermined
>tragectories.  Year start up time is hardly an insurmountable
>task for a business (or even that rare).

Your snowball just grew an order of magnitude. OK, so you put
more thrusters on it: how long does it take to put one on? I'd
like to know how you propose to power them continuously for the
better part of a year. You need some kind of guidance unit if you
are going to have any control over your snowball's direction once
you fire the thrusters. How many are you going to carry? What do
you use to place them: a guy in a vac suit, manipulator arm, or
what?  How long does it take to find them, how close are they
together, and how long does it take to go between them? You ARE
talking a mission of a couple of months at least, so you need
extended life support.  The devil is in the details.
  

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #621
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 13 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 622



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Computer Technology
Re: I'm back from sea
Re: Sheewash Drive
Re: Gene Bank
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Analog Aliens
Re: Kuiper belters (was: cheap ways of getting fuel...)
Re: Organization of ground units
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: 3I raising military forces
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel...
Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...)
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: DSR
Re: DSR
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks
Re: one minor comment on Virus
Re: DSR

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 02:05:06 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

>From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
> I doubt there will be very many spinning mechanical devices 
> involved in a TL 12+ computer, and the term "DOS" will be lost
> in the mists of history. 

Barbarian (B) talking to TL-15-world Citizen (C):

D: "... so, the Operating System of your computer..." 

C: "The what???"

D: "You know, the very basic program on which other programs run..."

C: "Program?? Whatever you mean?"

D: "You know, a set of instructions or encoded orders given in such a 
ways that they make the computer perform a task..."

C: "Oh, I see!! Instructions! Orders! Yes, of course, you have to 
order the computer to do things, otherwise it does nothing. Aha. For 
example, let me 'program' our meal: COMPUTER, PREPARE DINNER!"

;-)

Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:49:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>>In the US, that's called "hard cider". I've had it, after pressing the
>>apples myself. Not bad. If you *really* want fun, try applejack. That's
>>"hard cider" that's been allowed to partially freeze and then had the
>>ice filtered out. Repeat several times and you've got something as
>>potent as any brandy.
>
> Ouch...
>
> In the UK, apple juice is apple juice, fermented apple juice is cider, and
> then you can get Apple brandy...

There's a distinct difference between "applejack" and "applebrandy".
The brandy will consist of water, alocohol, and such components of the
hard cider as were volatile enough toboil off along with the alcohol. 

Applejack contains *all* the components of the hard cider except those
that have such a strong affinity for water thatthey'd preferentially
segregate in the ice.

So the flavor is apt to be rather different.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:53:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sheewash Drive

In mail you write:

> _The Witches of Karras_, right <grin>?

Karres, actually. The witches of Karras would be involved with a
strange weightlifter:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:54:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gene Bank

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
> "Just remember that whether or not a gene is "bad" is a 
> matter of *local* conditions. You'll need to carry records 
> of *all* known variations."
>
>         Not necessarily *all* known variations. First, some
>         genes may be bad under all conditions. By TL 15 we
>         may be able to at least make intelligent guesses
>         about some of these.

But those variations may turn out to be a good starting point for
"designing" a gene that's needed to handle something new.

>         Second, some variations have
>         demonstrably no effect whatsoever on the function
>         of the protein coded.

Again, they may be useful after further manipulations.

>         Third, any natural population
>         of humans sent to a new home will be missing some
>         variations. And how about the trillions of variants
>         that are unknown but could be produced by genetic
>         manipulations?

> <snipped>
> "Well, if you have it from only *one* parent, your red blood 
> cells are only a tiny bit different from normal. But that 
> "tiny bit" is enough to confer near total immunity to malaria!"
>
>         That "tiny bit" is enough to make you chronically ill,
>         but much healthier than you would be if you caught
>         malaria.

Not from what I've read. But I'm not an expert on the subject.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:24:09 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 04:23 PM 5/13/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Juliean Galak wrote:
>>  
>> All I have to say is: Punch Cards.  :)
>> 
>> Yes, I've used them once.  Yes, it was on an actual in-use machine (not in
>> a museum or something).  Yes, I was five years old at the time, why?
>
>Hah! A mere rugrat you are...I learned _programming_ using punchcards
>and Fortran...(back when it was Threetran ;-) A buddy of mine wrote a
>D&D dungeon generator, complete with extensive random encounter and
>treasure tables on the ol' Convex. That was about a six-foot stack of
>punchcards by the time he was sort of done. He had it mostly debugged
>before RL intervened. He was, like Roderick, a magnificent DM and
>innovator cut down in his prime by a legal career...;->

Actually, I'm even younger that I seem from this post.  You see, this
machine was in Russia.  Which means subtract 15-20 years from it's age.
The only thing I did on the machine was to get it to print out my name on
the line printer as a banner.

(The 1st video game I ever played was on a Russian clone of (I think) an
IBM7070.  The game was python.  This was around 1985)

:)


          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:28:50 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

At 05:51 PM 5/13/99 -0600, you wrote:

>they recur. Imagine standing up on this list and declaring, "Virus," or
>"Drop Tanks," or "the P-word." This could form the beginning of a
>translation scheme -- if they didn't declare jihad in return!

Uhmm... what's the P-word?



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- -- 
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:31:28 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Kuiper belters (was: cheap ways of getting fuel...)

Thu, 13 May 1999 19:50:47 -0400, Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>

>>Though actually,
>>since you are going to leave the thruster on there, you might
>>as well leave them going.  Make it a 10000 ton chunk of
>>ice and let it keep going, it will handily arrive in less
>>than a year.
>>What you are missing is that the crew doesn't go with it.  They
>>send it along unmanned.  The ship takes a week or two to fly
>>out to the belt and collects objects, puts little thruster
>>packs on them, and starts sending them in on predetermined
>>tragectories.  Year start up time is hardly an insurmountable
>>task for a business (or even that rare).

>Your snowball just grew an order of magnitude.

The point was that you could increase the mass by a factor of 10
(dropping the acceleration by a factor of 10) and still arrive
in less than a year.  That way you get more ice for the
commiment of the thruster pack for a longer period.

> OK, so you put
>more thrusters on it:

No, I'm not putting more thusters on it.  If you put more thusters
on it (to keep it at 0.04 G) and you will get in sooner.

> you can  how long does it take to put one on?

So it takes a whole day?

> I'd
>like to know how you propose to power them continuously for the
>better part of a year.

gee they are strapped to big ball of fuel...
(thought this is mostly a CT question since in GT interplanetary
fuel needs are trivial).

> You need some kind of guidance unit if you
>are going to have any control over your snowball's direction once
>you fire the thrusters. How many are you going to carry?

Well, we can do it today with small probes.  When you jump
up 7 TLs in technology, this will be darn cheap.

> What do
>you use to place them: a guy in a vac suit, manipulator arm, or
>what?

Either.  Both.

>  How long does it take to find them, how close are they
>together, and how long does it take to go between them?

WE can spot bigger objects from the Earth now.  Spotting
smaller ones from the same orbit with sensors that are 7
TLs advanced wouldn't seem to be a problem.  At one
1 G you can cover 10% of the orbit in a matter of days.  Though
they will be a lot more common than that.

>  You ARE
>talking a mission of a couple of months at least, so you need
>extended life support.

Which isn't a problem, scouts have exended mission all the time.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:48:25 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Organization of ground units

>Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:24:56
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: 3I Raising Military Forces
>
>This is for US Army infantry units, as those are what I'm familiar with...
>
>Regiment.
>
>Technically, 3-4 battalions.  This is not used as an organizational level
>in the US Army with two exceptions:  The 75th Infantry Regiment (Ranger)
>and the 3rd US Infantry (The Old Guard) both have Regimental HQs.

Correction: "[Regiment] is not used as an organizational level in the US
Army *Infantry*," &c. Also, the 3d Infantry Regiment is maintained at
battalion strength, whatever its designation.

The 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment is just that, as are two
attack helicopter regiments at Fort Bragg (though there may be only one by
now).

A Special Forces Group is essentially a regiment, not a brigade, and there
are four or five of those.

And then there are about 15,000 guys (and gals) in spurs and Stetsons...

Respectfully,

Christopher B. Thrash
Major, U.S. Cavalry
Headquarters, 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:04:51 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

Date sent:      	Thu, 13 May 1999 17:42:44 +0100
From:           	Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>

>Frank G. Pitt wrote:

>>So, can anyone help me out and remember the English sailing ship that did
>>stay in service for around 300 years ?

>HMS Victory is still in commission - she's currently flagship of the
>Home Fleet. I'm not so certain that it has been a constant commission
>since she was launched, though.

No she hasn't been. Like most first rates she was kept in reserve during
peacetime. And since Trafalger she has effectively been in reserve (laid
up in a graving dock). A better example of a ship in commission might
be USS Consitution (built 1797) which is still in sea-going commission.

ObTrav: Given the slow pace of technological change in the 3I and the
relalively "vessel friendly" nature of space; just how long does an Imperial
warship stay in service.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:04:51 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

From:           	"Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Date sent:      	Thu, 13 May 1999 18:23:12 -0400

>Exactly.  It's OK for a regiment to be split between brigades , but what is
>a problem is having troops move from regiment to regiment with each
>transfer as they apparently do in the US Army.  

Keeping the troops with the Regiment is central to the Regimental system.
Also promotion is within the Regiment, which is one of its weaknesses (as
well as preventing an "up or out" policy).

>Let me give some context.  I'm not a veteran, but I sit in a discussion
>panel on military manpower issues. We just recently (last week) talked with
>GEN Shy Meyer, who instituted the regimental system in the US Army.  He was
>thoroughly unhappy with the fact that detailers don't even make an effort
>to send troops back to the same regiment from tour to tour. Maybe that's
>changed since he left the Army, but I'd be surprised.

The US used to use whats normally referred to as the "Corp of Infantry"
approach. In this system, recruits are trained a large central "school(s)"
and then posted out to a unit. In this scheme, when an individual leaves
a unit there is no guarantee that they will be returned to the same unit.
The benefit of this system is that it ensures a uniformity of training and
doctrine, and theoretically optimises utilisation of manpower. It would
appear that when the US first adopted the Regimental system when it
went over to a volunteer force after Vietnam that they unsuccessfully
attempted to form a hybrid of the two approaches. As an interesting
aside, last century the US did use a purely Regimental system, but
abandoned it when it had to massively increase the Army for the First
World War.

>Assuming troops remain in the same regiment for their entire career,
>spreading that regiment around isn't a major problem, although it seems to
>run contrary to the established Traveler cannon.  The 4518th is clearly a
>single regiment, but then again it's not really IA.   the 1188th Lift
>Infantry Regiment is also well known, and clearly went into action as a
>body. 

The 1188th was a Brigade (1188th ("Aces and Eights") Lift Infantry
Brigade, JTAS 14) not a Regiment. I remember Loren saying that
the Imperial Army was organised into Brigades while the Marines were
grouped in Regiments.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:02:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)

In mail you write:

>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> If you go out to the Kuiper belt, sure they'll be far apart. But ypu'll
>> also be about to find *big* chunks. They'll be rarer, but easier to
>> find. 
>
> Dunno bout easier to find.  Transstellar space is pretty big.  It's like 
> trying to find a needle in a haystack.  Anybody got any figures on the 
> distribution of iceballs in a Kuiper Belt?

With Traveller level tech you can do *active* sensor searches. Steal an
idea from Arthur C. Clarke and use "nuke-pumped radar". I'm not up on a
the details, but it's possible to build a nuke and rig things to
convert most of the power into a microwave pulse. 

Using *that*, you can detect even small bodies at multi AU ranges. 
  
>> >> Make that a lot of tonnage flinging around in a narrow range of
>> >> orbits.  Orbits that, even in todays technology, are easy to
>> >> determine.  Of course you choose orbits that pass just outside
>> >> of the 100 diam limit (so they won't cross the path of ships
>> >> travelling out to the limit) until the thrusters kick in and
>> >> slow them down (in case they fail) an put them into some predetermine
>> >> plantary orbit for later retreival.
>> >
>> > Obviously you'd give the ice cubes the right-of-way insystem.
>> 
>> And if you've got people busily refining the ice, the "waste" they dump
>> overboard (mostly rock dust) will make a decent, if not spectactular
>> comet tail, making them *easy* to see.
>
> It still depends on how far out the ice cubes are.  It takes over a week to 
> go a billion klicks at 1G.

Actually, 5.17 days. But note that at 1/1000th of a g it only takes 163
days. The transit time is a function of the *square root* of the
acceleration. So increasing it doesn't help a lot, and *decreasing* it,
doesn't hurt as much as you might think. 

The Kuiper belt starts around 5 light hours, or 5.4e9 km. So, at 1g, it
takes about 12 days to get there (assuming you turn over halfway and
decelerate). And at 1/1000th g, it'll take around 1200 days to get
back, again assuming turnover and decel halfway.

So a 10 year trip will take even lower acceleration. 

>> I say refining, because, since you'd need a few people to tend to the
>> drive, you might as well have a few more and have them process the ice.
>
> Or automate the process.  Higher tech levels can be nice.

I doubt *anyone* is going to trust an automated setup to pilot
something that big without human supervision. 

>> They'll have a nice place to live for quite a few years (lots of the
>> hard to find life support chemicals like nitrogen). And they can use a
>> mass driver to boost refined "ice" into orbits that'll get it to the
>> inner system much faster. And help bring the body into the desired
>> orbit. 
>
> What gets me is, some of the older desert worlds are bound to have a
> few hundred ice balls in their Kuiper Belts, and they've been
> civilised (*and* high tech) for quite some time.  And I *KNOW*
> there's planets like this in the Solomani Rim, I just don't happen to
> have my copy anywhere handy at the moment.  So howcome they didn't
> move a few iceteroids insystem and crash 'em into the planet to
> provide water yet??

The settlers may *want* the desert climate. New Arabia certainly will. :-)

And *crashing* them into the planet has unfortunate side effects. Soft
landing them gets expensive. 

>> Heck, I wouldn't be surprised to see such "ice miners" also growing
>> enough food to export!
>
> I can see them also developing freefall organisms for use in asteroid belt 
> systems.

Heck, it's possible that the problem is most ice miners think theyt can
do fine *without* moving the asteroid. Why go to the extra expense and
hassle for not that much more money?

There may be a seperate "belter" culture in the far belts. It may take
them a *long* time to do it, but it's been conjectured that such a
society would spread from one star to another in only a century or so
at *sub*-light speeds!

Give them a J-1 drive, and they can take a week to get to anywhere
within a parsec. So once started, I can see someone spotting a new ice
chunk that they can't (or don't feel like) handling alone, and sending
out a report via laserlink to the nearest habs. It'll spread until
*someone* is interested *and* capable of dealing with it. And they'll
get there in a jump or two. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:30:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel...

In mail you write:

> What about a VERY long teather that links a docking/prosesing plant
> to a fuel scoop in the GG?  You would need CG to keep it from falling
> into the GG.

Not necessarily. The "conventional" tether is orbiting *and* spining
around its center. So the end rotates to the low point and ships ride
it up to the high point. This lowers the orbit a bit. Ships going in
the other direction raise the orbit a bit.

In the case of a GG "mining" setup, you'd have more mass going up than
down. So some of the hydrogen will get "winched" from the end of the
tether to the center, and used in an engine to boost the tether back up
every so often. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:38:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...)

In mail you write:

>>If they have a normal distribution in sizes and based on
>>some recent estimates of the amount of mass out there, they
>>won't be that hard to find.
>
> A distribution where frequency decreases exponentially with
> increasing size is more likely. An apparent "normal" distribution
> is probably an artifact due to the increased difficulty of
> detecting smaller objects. The density of matter out there
> is pretty low: objects worth sending are going to be thousands of km apart
> at best.  I checked detectability with the DSR: Objects shouldn't be too
> hard to find, but if you have minimal sensors, it's going to take some
> work.

By "normal" I think he meant "the usual" not the "normal distribution"
of statisics. Objects the space tend to follow a single tail curve of
sorts. The smaller, the more common.

>>In GT, just one thruster module will give a 1000 ton chunck of
>>ice (over 100 >dtons of fule) 0.04 G of accel.  That can
>>give it a 10 km/s change in velocity (more than its orbital
>>velocity) in less than a day.  (which is way overkill)
>
> A 1000 ton object is going to be around a few meters in diameter.
> The several-km sized objects visible from earth with present sensors are a
> billion times more massive: good luck pushing those around with a few
> thrusters. In the meantime, it still takes on the order of
> decades for an unpowered fall into the inner system once you do
> nudge your snowball. (Halley's comet takes nearly 40 years from
> somewhat closer than the Kuiper belt, IIRC)

Yes, but if you drop a drive and a fuel refining unit on it, it can
boost essentially *forever*. So it doesn't *need* to free fall. My
figures say at 1/1000th of a g, it'll take 600 days to the halfway
point, and another 600 of deceleration to bring it to "rest" in the
inner system. 

Remember, at a lower accel you've got a *lot* more time for the delta-V
to accumulate.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 21:34:28 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

- ----------
> From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance 
> 
> ObTrav: Given the slow pace of technological change in the 3I and the
> relalively "vessel friendly" nature of space; just how long does an
Imperial
> warship stay in service.
> 

According to Supp 5, Azhanti High Lighting survived for at least 113
years(First flight in 994, still in service in 1007.) However, she seems to
have spent about 30 years laid in reserve and three more in refit from
fleet intruder to frontier cruiser.  Some of the class served as fleet
auxiliaries and may have stayed in active service for more than 100 years.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:41:17 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: DSR

>I got the DSR from the Missouri archive, but this version didn't
>include any information on detecting astronomical bodies.
>Has this been developed, and if so, where could I find it?

It has been developed - and I can't find the damn thing (lost in a deleting
accident, together with many of my other notes.) If anyone has a copy,
could they forward it to me as well as Thad?

Bruce Macintosh
(DSR author)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:47:06 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: DSR

>What is the DSR?
The (named in a fit of megalomania) "Definitive Sensor Rules", sensor  and
signature rules for FFS2/T4.1 based on some rather detailed infrared
and visible-light sensitivity calculations I did once upon a time. I'm still
fairly
proud of it, and thought the result was fairly easy to use (although it
inherited some awkwardness from FFS2) and definitely very detailed; exactly
what
you want if you need to figure out the signature of your Type S with
extra thermal masking and its power plant shut down hiding in the shadow
of a gas giant...and how far away the incoming Midu can detect you.

Available on various websites; my copy got deleted and I'm putting it
back together.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:16:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks

In mail you write:

> He also did the classic GM disaster:
>
>         "You enter the room.
>         "There is a dragon hiding behind the curtain.
>         "I shouldn't have read out that last bit."

The propert way to handle that is to let the players *wonder* about the
dragon behind the curtain. Have it turn out to be a "harmless baby".
*Then* when the players are clustered around it, have "mama" come home.
:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:25:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

In mail you write:

> At 01:43 AM 5/12/99 EDT, you wrote:
>>In a message dated 99-05-11 18:50:41 EDT, you write:
>>
>><< Then cobble togethere some good old fashioned analog control systems.  
> Let
>> the virus try to munch on those!  Or a mechanical control system like the
>> old Barber-Coldmans. >>

> They would turn into real AIR-heads and gear-heads.  Those systems were
> pnumatic and clockwork!  And you would really be surprised at all the things
> they could do in the way of process control.  Remember in WW2 the TDCs,
> Nordon bomb sights, and balistic targeting computer on ships were all 
> clockwork!

Do keep in mind that "analog computer" does *not* mean
"non-electronic". The current electronic part for building analog
controllers is the op-amp. 

For a lot of real-world control of equipment type applications, analog
is far superior to digital. You get faster feedback, and "programming"
errors tend to be either immediately obvious major ones, or else
trivial hidden ones. 

An analog computer would give Virus a nervous breakdown. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:20:52 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: DSR

A couple of days ago I wrote:

> I got the DSR from the Missouri archive, but this version
> didn't include any information on detecting astronomical
> bodies. Has this been developed, and if so, where could I find
> it?

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 02:01:32 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net> 

>What is the DSR?

DSR= Definitive Sensor Rules, written by Bruce Macintosh, for T4.
They may be found at:
http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/house/sensor.rules.html
 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #622
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 14 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 623



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Modular Cutter
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: Japanese and German traveller query
Re: Price of Freight 
Re: Analog aliens, was Re: Computer Technology
Web Page
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel...
Re: 3I raising military forces
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Calling All Starmaps
Re: Analog Aliens
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...) 
Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...) 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Drop Tank Numbers 
Re: Drop Tank Numbers 
Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...) 
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics  of Drop Tanks)
Re: Computer Technology
Gold-plated drop tanks (was re: Drop Tank Numbers)
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Real Life Merc-esq page

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:46:48 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Modular Cutter

In a message dated 5/13/99 10:14:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jmaclean@ix.netcom.com writes:

<<  Personally, I'd rather see a book that takes the same approach to 
 the Scout/Courier, Free Trader, and Far Trader since these are ships players 
are much more likely 
 to own. *shrug*
  >>

Well; it IS possible to own a smallcraft, and pay someone with a jump drive 
to carry you from system to system...I have no idea if this can be profitable 
or not...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 99 22:08:09 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks

On 05/13/99 at 11:27 PM,  "Benjamin Barton" <Aramis3d@iinet.net.au> said:

>>A Gazebo!

>We where playing Rolmaster , The DM rolled a random
>encounter,.....the party encounters a Gazebo , but the DM anounced We
>had encounted a wandering group of Gazz-a-boos....   The Party
>prepares to Strike with weapons and spell, as DM look thoughts the
>books for the monster.
>But the DM still couldn't find the monster in the books. Finally, a
>few of the players help look thought the books,  After a few minutes
>then someone said spell it....G-A-Z-E-B-O.  Well we all found it very
>funny.....even now people still resite the tale of the great Gazzaboo
>hunt.

You *have* heard the classic D&D story of "The Gazebo" haven't you?

If not, here's a url to a writeup, 

http://psych.ut.ee/~mpulver/gazebo.txt


Eris


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 23:51:07 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

At 05:42 PM 5/13/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Frank G. Pitt wrote:
>
>>So, can anyone help me out and remember the English sailing ship
that did
>>stay in service for around 300 years ?
>
>HMS Victory is still in commission - she's currently flagship of the
>Home Fleet. I'm not so certain that it has been a constant
commission
>since she was launched, though.

	Unless I'm mistaken, the world's oldest continuously-commissioned
warship is the USS Constitution ... "Old Ironsides."  Although she
hasn't done much cruising around until she was recently refitted;
still, technically she's never left active service.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 23:19:46 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Japanese and German traveller query

> >Zweilichtberg (Ad 3: Twiglet's Peak)
                        ^^^^^^^

I know, no points.

ObTrav: Is there a system named Twiglet in the Imperium?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 00:40:42 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Price of Freight 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Price of Freight 
> ...
> >Now, this doesn't mean that it's the *only* rate that can be charged.  IIRC, 
> >I've seen Amber Zones where the patron offers double rates, whatever.  I see 
> >the 1KCr/ton as the 'lowball bid' due to excessive competition.  Let's face 
> >it, if there was only *one* airline, tickets would be about 5 or 6 times what 
> >they are now.
> 
>   So if KCr 1/Dt _isn't_ the only rate that can be charged for shipping then
> the whole "market rate premium for express service" argument is over? That
> means that we can get back to what the CT trade system would look like once
> drop tanks completed their ascendance.

I see the 1KCr/ton rate to be the absolute rock bottom limit that *nobody* will go below.  But with competition being what it is, I see it as the most common price as well.  When you've got X ships competing for X-1 lots of freight, you have to underbid to get the contract.

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 99 00:53:00 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Analog aliens, was Re: Computer Technology

On 05/13/99 at 12:43 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:

<big snip>

>Their language would probably be a contiuous modulated tone, if they
>use sound to communicate. Ideas would be communicated by the
>frequency, amplitude and most importantly, rate of change if the
>tone. They could likely communicate to each other simultaneously, in
>a multiplex fashion, using differing base frequencies. For color, no
>pun intended, they could also use color changes and patterns as a
>component of commmunication, much like certain species of squids
>apparently do. 

>There, we have a nickname for them...Squids, though they'll likely be
>more like large intelligent amoebas.

And given your description, their niche would most likely be in a
fluidic environment, or perhaps down in a gas gaint's depths.


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 02:00:26 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Web Page

Hi,
I finaly got a web page up (spell checked!), its at the school were I goto, 
here is the link to my page:

http://www.alianza.santacruz.k12.ca.us/PCCS/Stephenwp1.html

And the Main Page:

http://www.alianza.santacruz.k12.ca.us/PCCS/

Any Questions, comments, ect are welcomed.  Once I get the Norfolk i done 
I'll post it some place.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 02:22:09 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel...

In a message dated 99-05-13 21:21:15 EDT, you write:

<< In the case of a GG "mining" setup, you'd have more mass going up than
 down. So some of the hydrogen will get "winched" from the end of the
 tether to the center, and used in an engine to boost the tether back up
 every so often. 
  >>

Sounds good, it would be interesting to see.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 02:25:39 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

In a message dated 99-05-13 21:09:04 EDT, you write:

<< 
 >>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 99 01:25:06 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

On 05/13/99 at 04:23 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:

>> All I have to say is: Punch Cards.  :)
>> 
>> Yes, I've used them once.  Yes, it was on an actual in-use machine (not in
>> a museum or something).  Yes, I was five years old at the time, why?

>Hah! A mere rugrat you are...I learned _programming_ using punchcards
>and Fortran...(back when it was Threetran ;-) 

Same here, and those were *not* the good old days.  ;-> 

I've lived through punched cards, paper tapes, mag tapes, cassette
tapes, "card to disk", and various collections of mag disks both
fixed and flexible.  Remember the big old disk packs and the freezer
sized drives you put them in?  I remember when the university's main
system got a *big* memory upgrade...it went from 4 to 8 *kilobytes*
of core memory! 

PC's were invented just about the time I left my first career and
went back to college.  The first one I used was a $20,000 Terak with
an 8" floppy.  I got access to it only because I BS'ed some guy in
the computer center about needing access for a class...I didn't I
taught myself Pascal wrote computer games. ;->

My first PC was a TRS Model I that I got "for school" and used to
type in Marc's Basic programs out of the Journals.  It's long gone,
but I still have a Timex-Sinclair, a tricked out CoCo (I ran
multi-tasking unix like OS-9 on it) and a Model 4p in the closet,
along with a $500 dollar external disk drive for the CoCo and a
Gorilla Banana serial printer.  ;-> The Model 16 and dumb terminal (I
used MS-Xenix) eventually ended up in a land fill.  <sigh> I'm
getting misty remembering all the good times. </sigh>

When I teach computer concepts, each term, I pull out my box of
"junk" and show the students things we used to compute with.  Most
have never seen vacuum tubes, punched cards, transistors,
reel-to-reel tapes, big 18" metal disks and disk packs, or my prized
"hunk o'core."  Heck, most have never seen a slide rule.  ;->

Ok, I'm an old coot, but I still say the good old days of computing
are ahead of us...


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 02:34:07 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Calling All Starmaps

Does anyone have any links (net or real life) for ware I can find star 
coords? 
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 99 01:42:54 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

On 05/13/99 at 08:28 PM,  Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> said:

>>they recur. Imagine standing up on this list and declaring, "Virus," or
>>"Drop Tanks," or "the P-word." This could form the beginning of a
>>translation scheme -- if they didn't declare jihad in return!

>Uhmm... what's the P-word?

Don't ask!  ;-> Ok...I'll give you a hint, ethically challenged ship
crews.


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 02:43:49 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

> I've lived through punched cards, paper tapes, mag tapes, cassette
> tapes, "card to disk", and various collections of mag disks both
> fixed and flexible.  Remember the big old disk packs and the freezer
> sized drives you put them in?  I remember when the university's main
> system got a *big* memory upgrade...it went from 4 to 8 *kilobytes*
> of core memory! 

I cut my teeth on a Sigma-7, obsolete even in '73, at college, after I got out 
of the Army.  Back then, if you had $650, you could get a 300 baud acoustic 
coupled modem, and with a bit of work, you could tie it to a Model 14KSR 
teletype for a terminal and log into a timeshare machine someplace by fone.
 
> My first PC was a TRS Model I that I got "for school" and used to
> type in Marc's Basic programs out of the Journals.  It's long gone,
> but I still have a Timex-Sinclair, a tricked out CoCo (I ran
> multi-tasking unix like OS-9 on it) and a Model 4p in the closet,

I played with a Mod 1 a bit, but bought a CoCo, then another one, and then a 
CoCo3.  I ended up running a 512K CoCo3 & OS-9 Level 2.  Talk about power!!!

I remember being hooked up to CI$ at 2400 baud, downloading something for my 
CoCo (the CoCo2, a 64K machine), bursting the .ar file *WHILE* it was 
downloading, piping the docs to the Epson MX-80 printer, with a game program 
('Rogue') and a word processor program running as well, while reading an 
article in BYTE where Bill Gates was proclaiming that multitasking on a system 
with less than 4 megs of RAM was impossible.  And I was doing all that on 
*64K*!!!

> along with a $500 dollar external disk drive for the CoCo and a
> Gorilla Banana serial printer.  ;-> The Model 16 and dumb terminal (I
> used MS-Xenix) eventually ended up in a land fill.  <sigh> I'm
> getting misty remembering all the good times. </sigh>

I remember how happy we all were when somebody came up with a way to mate an 
MFM harddrive to our CoCos so we didn't have to give Rat Shack 1500 greenies 
for a *5 meg hd*.  I ended up with a 100 meg HD, wondering how many years it 
would take me to fill it up!!  <grin>
 
> Ok, I'm an old coot, but I still say the good old days of computing
> are ahead of us...

And you can *bet* I'll have a wearable with a high speed cell modem on it when I get around to building it...

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 02:46:12 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...) 

> >> Remember, if you can give it a small fraction of a G of accelation
> >> for a week, you can make a major change to its orbit and thrust
> >> is pretty cheap in Traveller.  In GT, just one thruster module
> >> will give a 1000 ton chunck of ice (over 100 dtons of fule)
> >> 0.04 G of accel.  That can
> >> give it a 10 km/s change in velocity (more than its orbital
> >> velocity) in less than a day.  (which is way overkill)
> >
> >10 klicks/sec for a couple billion klicks is still a *LONG* flight.
> 
> 10 klick/sec increasing as it falls in.  Though actually,
> since you are going to leave the thruster on there, you might
> as well leave them going.  Make it a 10000 ton chunk of
> ice and let it keep going, it will handily arrive in less
> than a year.

More like 2 or 3.
 
> >According to the chart in 'The Traveller Book', which has been fairly
> >accurate
> >as far as I can tell, going a billion klicks at a constant 1G is about a 7.3
> >day trip.  If you're talking delta vees of 10 klick/secs, pack a lunch,
> >it's a
> >long walk.
> 
> What you are missing is that the crew doesn't go with it.  They
> send it along unmanned.  The ship takes a week or two to fly
> out to the belt and collects objects, puts little thruster
> packs on them, and starts sending them in on predetermined
> tragectories.  Year start up time is hardly an insurmountable
> task for a business (or even that rare).

I dunno bout that...

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 02:48:00 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...) 

> >>"Much easier" is debatable. The Kuiper belt is a looong way
> >>out:
> 
> >Buy contemporary standards.  But remember that even a 1G ship
> >has _enormous_ acceleration by contemporary standards.
> 
> A 1G ship at full thrust takes about 7 days, one way in our
> system. The ship can't maintain the same velocity within the
> belt, though, since it has to match velocities with the objects
> it's moving in. Try sticking a thruster pack on an snowball when
> you're speeding past it at 10 km/sec some time. <g> (Kuiper
> belters only *think* they're supermen).

<chuckle>
 
> >In GT, just one thruster module will give a 1000 ton chunck of
> >ice (over 100 >dtons of fule) 0.04 G of accel.  That can
> >give it a 10 km/s change in velocity (more than its orbital
> >velocity) in less than a day.  (which is way overkill)
> 
> A 1000 ton object is going to be around a few meters in diameter.
> The several-km sized objects visible from earth with present sensors are a
> billion times more massive: good luck pushing those around with a few
> thrusters. In the meantime, it still takes on the order of
> decades for an unpowered fall into the inner system once you do
> nudge your snowball. (Halley's comet takes nearly 40 years from
> somewhat closer than the Kuiper belt, IIRC)

Halley's has a period of 76 years, IIRC.

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 02:50:07 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
> ...
> >>   Only the per unit costs matters, obviously; is Cr 15 per Dt truly
> significant?
> >> FWIW, I would describe it as "dirt-cheap" for the service in question.
> >
> >It's 15% of the standard rate for unrefined fuel.  You call that dirt cheap?
> 
>   Inhabited world surface to orbit is Cr 20 per Dt; the entire system described
> for shipping the skimmed L-Hyd from a GG to a fuel station _3 months away_ is
> no more than twice that price rate. I suspect that most qualified observers
> would
> call that dirt cheap, come to think.

40Cr/ton.  Hmmmmmmmmm.  Book rate for unrefined fuel is 100Cr/ton.  Methinks 
I'd get it refined if possible to increase its profit margin...

Keven
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 02:52:46 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers 
> ...
> >>   Are you suggesting that a non-disposable L-Hyd tank be allowed if it costs
> >> the same as a hull(/internal tankage) in HG2 - i.e., KCr 50-120 per Dt?
> >
> >You get the rope, I'll get the lighter fluid.
> 
>   Nah, we'll _errata_ him - maybe list him as an IRS auditor? And maybe while
> we're at it we can get the imbecile who came up with "A 12-Step Program for
> Virus Fans" as a subject title for a thread?

I was thinking more of burning him at the stake.  *AFTER* we hang him, of 
course.

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 02:53:29 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers 

> Steven Hudson wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>   Are you suggesting that a non-disposable L-Hyd tank be allowed if it costs
> the same as a hull(/internal tankage) in HG2 - i.e., KCr 50-120 per Dt?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> That sounds like an interesting idea. Anyone have an economics model
> of drop tank effects in a spreadsheet, so they could see the effects with
> much more expensive drop tanks that could (at cost to operate tugs and
> perform minor tank maintenance) have a service life of 10 years or more?
> 
> Why is Keven getting lighter fluid and rope?  ;-)

A quick lynching, of course.  <grin>

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 02:58:57 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...) 

> > A 1000 ton object is going to be around a few meters in diameter.
> > The several-km sized objects visible from earth with present sensors are a
> > billion times more massive: good luck pushing those around with a few
> > thrusters. In the meantime, it still takes on the order of
> > decades for an unpowered fall into the inner system once you do
> > nudge your snowball. (Halley's comet takes nearly 40 years from
> > somewhat closer than the Kuiper belt, IIRC)
> 
> Yes, but if you drop a drive and a fuel refining unit on it, it can
> boost essentially *forever*. So it doesn't *need* to free fall. My
> figures say at 1/1000th of a g, it'll take 600 days to the halfway
> point, and another 600 of deceleration to bring it to "rest" in the
> inner system. 

That's 1200 days.  A bit over 3 years, 3 months.
 
> Remember, at a lower accel you've got a *lot* more time for the delta-V
> to accumulate.

And you'll *NEED* it.  BTW, what did your figures say the terminal velocity was at 600 days?

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 03:12:42 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics  of Drop Tanks)

> >> I say refining, because, since you'd need a few people to tend to the
> >> drive, you might as well have a few more and have them process the ice.
> >
> > Or automate the process.  Higher tech levels can be nice.
> 
> I doubt *anyone* is going to trust an automated setup to pilot
> something that big without human supervision. 

*I* sure dont!!!!  Ever read Roger MacBride Allen's 'The Farside Cannon'?  
Scary stuff...
 
> >> They'll have a nice place to live for quite a few years (lots of the
> >> hard to find life support chemicals like nitrogen). And they can use a
> >> mass driver to boost refined "ice" into orbits that'll get it to the
> >> inner system much faster. And help bring the body into the desired
> >> orbit. 
> >
> > What gets me is, some of the older desert worlds are bound to have a
> > few hundred ice balls in their Kuiper Belts, and they've been
> > civilised (*and* high tech) for quite some time.  And I *KNOW*
> > there's planets like this in the Solomani Rim, I just don't happen to
> > have my copy anywhere handy at the moment.  So howcome they didn't
> > move a few iceteroids insystem and crash 'em into the planet to
> > provide water yet??
> 
> The settlers may *want* the desert climate. New Arabia certainly will. :-)
> 
> And *crashing* them into the planet has unfortunate side effects. Soft
> landing them gets expensive. 

Take yer iceteroid and 'weaken' it by drilling holes all through it.  Make the 
holes such that the pieces will be about a meter or less when the iceteroid 
breaks up.  Put the iceteroid in an eccentric orbit just *grazing* the edge of 
the atmosphere.  They'll break up and melt, putting the water into the air as 
water vapor.  Repeat as necessary.
 
> >> Heck, I wouldn't be surprised to see such "ice miners" also growing
> >> enough food to export!
> >
> > I can see them also developing freefall organisms for use in asteroid belt 
> > systems.
> 
> Heck, it's possible that the problem is most ice miners think theyt can
> do fine *without* moving the asteroid. Why go to the extra expense and
> hassle for not that much more money?

<nod>
 
> There may be a seperate "belter" culture in the far belts. It may take
> them a *long* time to do it, but it's been conjectured that such a
> society would spread from one star to another in only a century or so
> at *sub*-light speeds!

We've *almost* got that technology *now*.  Problem is, it's all at the bottom 
of a gravity well.
 
Keven

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 23:47:21 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

"Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at> wrote


> Barbarian (B) talking to TL-15-world Citizen (C):
>
>
> C: "You know, a set of instructions or encoded orders given in such a
> ways that they make the computer perform a task..."
>
> B: "Oh, I see!! Instructions! Orders! Yes, of course, you have to
> order the computer to do things, otherwise it does nothing. Aha. For
> example, let me 'program' our meal: COMPUTER, PREPARE DINNER
>
Won't this work fine with a TL 15 computer, or even a TL 11 or 12 computer? Now unless the
computer is in a robot it might not have the hands it will need to actually prepare the dinner
but it should understand the instructions at least.  Now if you were trying to explain a TL 8
computer....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 00:56:23 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Gold-plated drop tanks (was re: Drop Tank Numbers)

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Drop Tank Numbers
...
>  Are you suggesting that a non-disposable L-Hyd tank be allowed if it costs
>the same as a hull(/internal tankage) in HG2 - i.e., KCr 50-120 per Dt?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>That sounds like an interesting idea. Anyone have an economics model
>of drop tank effects in a spreadsheet, so they could see the effects with
>much more expensive drop tanks that could (at cost to operate tugs and
>perform minor tank maintenance) have a service life of 10 years or more?

Express shipping costs recap (II)

F-5 1kt JumpExpressCo Fast Liner XR-A431152-050000-85000-0  MCr 452.4  1kt TL F
        Cargo=196. Passengers=17. LHyd=550. EP=50. Agility=1. Low=0. Crew=10.

F6 1kt JumpExpress Express Liner XR-A431162-000000-80000-0  MCr 513.2  1kt TL F
        Cargo=72.  Passengers=17. LHyd=660. EP=60. Agility=1. Low=0. Crew=8.

"GOLD-PLATED" DROP TANKS - tanks cost KCr 60 per Dt (config 4; partially stream-
lined), cost 10% in maintenance and support operations expenses annually, and
have a lifespan of only 10 years (mortgage is simplified to 20% of value per
year):

 Unit  Mortgage/a.  basic rev./a.  Premium  Cargo charge
  F-5   MCr 30.12      MCr 32.20      nil      ~ Cr   935
  F-6   MCr 34.66      MCr 31.36      >11%     > Cr 1,105
 i) cost of drop-tanks is an insignificant change; + KCr 8 to vessel cost.
 ii) maintenance of tankage increase one-hundred-fold.
 iii) mortgage of tankage increase four-fold.

  Which compares extremely favourably to either of the following:
Internal tankage only:
 Unit  Mortgage/a.  basic rev./a.  Premium  Cargo charge
  F-5   MCr 22.62      MCr 12.46      >82%     > Cr 1,820
  F-6   MCr 25.66      MCr  8.12     >216%     > Cr 3,160

DROP TANKS - includes cost of _disposable_ tanks in operating cost (& mortgage):
 Unit  Ops. Cost/a.  basic rev./a.  Premium  Cargo charge
  F-5   MCr 40.12      MCr 32.20      >25%     > Cr 1,250
  F-6   MCr 46.66      MCr 31.36      >49%     > Cr 1,490

  Clearly, non-disposable L-Hyd tanks built to ship hull standards are
economically little different from re-usable tanks at first glance. In
fact they're much superior, as the lack of a refurbishing issue allows
them to be cycled through a larger set of ships in each duty cycle -
an individual ship not only doesn't expend a set of tanks, but it neither
needs to own _nor pay for_ a set of tanks on its own.

 Allowing such an option would merely exaggerate the damage of "normal" drop
tanks.

  FWIW, I suspect that the 20% mortgage on such tanks is serious overkill,
but someone else can prove why...

        Steven Hudson

    ** JumpExpressCo - When Too Fast Is Never Enough!(tm) **

  ObTrav - the above was, I hope. Being somewhat shameless, what follows isn't:

  GDW Classic Traveller Auction update I (re: underwhelming response)
  Auction of GDW Classic Traveller books

Rules:
1) All e-mail to:  shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca     (_not_ the TML, please)
2) Purchaser pays all shipping charges (i.e., insurance is extra); Canada
Post (preferred) or UPS. Postage would be around $1.75 US per booklet for small
shipments in bubble-pak envelopes - less per unit for more books; more if UPS.
3) Payment by _US Postal Service_ Postal Money Order, unless agreed otherwise.
 Items will be shipped only after payment is received. 
4) _Current_ or minimum bids are listed; all amounts are $US. For simplicities
sake I'll  e-mail updates to bidders on Saturday and Monday, and close the
auction on Wednesday, May 19th, 2300 PST.
5) Condition of items varies; please read individual description.

        Steven Hudson - shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca

 GDW - Classic Traveller:
$3  Book 0 - An Introduction to Traveller - good condition
$6  Book 4 - Mercenary - cover fair, interior good condition
$4  Book 5 - High Guard (2nd ed.) - _poor_ condition
$12 Book 6 - Scouts - good condition; cover wear
$16 Book 8 - Robots - excellent condition; shop wear only
$6  Supp 3 - The Spinward Marches - good condition
$7  Supp 6 - 76 Patrons - good condition
$8  Supp 7 - Traders and Gunboats - fair condition; cover wear
$6  Supp 8 - Library Data A-M - good condition; cover wear
$6  Adv. 1 - The Kinunir - good condition; cover wear
$7  Adv. 2 - Research Station Gamma - good condition; cover wear & marks
$5  Adv. 4 - Leviathan - fair condition
$8  Adv. 6 - Expedition to Zhodane - excellent condition
$8  JTAS #21 (includes Special Supplement 3 - Missiles in Traveller, never
removed) - mint except for two price/store stickers still on. Various Keith
articles, including Vargr corsairs, K'kree philosophy, and a minor race.

        Steven Hudson - shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca

    ** JumpExpressCo - When Too Fast Is Never Enough!(tm) **

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:46:26 +1000
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Real Life Merc-esq page

For all you military buffs out there, here's a site dedicated to the
mercenary way of life.

http://www.combat-online.com <http://www.combat-online.com> 

Ob Traveller; Mercenary companies vie for attention on information nets on
those worlds where such advertising allowed, often sabotaging rivals in the
process. Characters of one company are directed to spoil the chances of a
rival gaining both contracts and recruits. 

Apologies if A) people already know about this site and B) if it seems off
topic.

Michael 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #623
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 14 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 624



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Japanese and German traveller query
Re: Computer Technology...
Re: Calling All Starmaps
Re: Calling All Starmaps
re: Computer Technology
re: Computer Technology
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Roger MacBride Allen's work
re: Computer Technology
Re: Analog Aliens
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
re: Analog Aliens
Grounding A Starship (aka Planetary Adventures)
Re: Analog Aliens
re: Computer Technology
re: Computer Technology
Re: Psionic Virus (was Re: A 12-step program ...)
re: Analog Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 05:34:13 EDT
From: Caecillus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Japanese and German traveller query

Short correction:

"Zweilichtberg" is with a little but important change of letter "Zwei" ist 
meaning "Two", the right spelling is "Zwielichtberg". "Zwielicht" is mostly 
equal to "Twilight".

greetings
Ralf (caecillus) 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 20:07:38 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, 14 May 1999 7:52
Subject: Re: Computer Technology


>Wayne Ewart wrote:
>>
>
>> If only is was the next morning.
>> My groups games will start on a Friday (all with a good "buzz" going by
>> 10ish) and play through till sunrise or later Sunday(still with a good
>> "buzz" going) Then it's nap time till X-Files and back to bed.
>
>Ouch! I'm not a young man anymore...more importantly, I don't have a
>young liver anymore ;-)
>
>

Ahhhhhh the memories...

I recall discovering Traveller (was it late 70's or early 80's... I seem to
have forgotten...) and playing campaign sessions over long weekends (we have
about a dozen or so every year in Oz -- give or take) from Friday night
after work, through to sometime Sunday (late morning to evening,
depending...).  All I can say is, "I'm lucky I'm still married after all
that!  It must have come close..."

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 07:35:18 ADT
From: "Les Howie" <les_howie@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Calling All Starmaps

>Does anyone have any links (net or real life) for ware I can find star
>coords?
>-Stephen

For a good source of links try:
http://www.clark.net/pub/nyrath/starmap.html

I also have a link to
http://adc.gsfc.nasa.gov/adc/adc_holdings1.html
Which IIRC has a good collection of all kinds of star catalogs

The first site will get you well oriented, if you need some additional links 
and some results of experience, drop me a note off list.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 07:40:39 ADT
From: "Les Howie" <les_howie@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Calling All Starmaps

>Does anyone have any links (net or real life) for ware I can find star
>coords?
>-Stephen

Start from 3D startmapping page at
http://www.clark.net/pub/nyrath/starmap.html

Or ADC archives at
http://adc.gsfc.nasa.gov/adc/adc_holdings1.html

If you have any more questions, email me off list.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:38:07 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

At 18:43 13/05/1999 +0000, Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:

>I've got even more news for you.  Babage's difference engine could in theory
>have been built with only water power and medevil metalurgy.  It was just a
>very complecated clock after all.

I heard different, speficially that the tolerances and material properties
requied to make it work meant that it couldn't have been completed last
century at realistic cost (ie it was a TL6 computer!)

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:47:31 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

At 20:47 13/05/1999 +0000, Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
>>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>DOS stands for disk operating system.  It's the basic IO bridge
>>functionality.  All computers have some version of a 'DOS' if it has any
>>connections to the real world and this can do usefull work.  It may not be
>>call DOS but the functionallity is there.  Humans have similer systems like
>>the visual cortex.  It is not wise to make fun of things you do not
>>understand.  It reflects badly on you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>You called it DOS. You make yourself sound like a PC dweeb when you're 
>>explaining the computer systems of the galaxy-spanning Imperium with 
>>terms like "DOS"...even if it is IDOS instead of MS-DOS. ;-) 
>>
>
>It is DOS.  DOS is a generic term referring to ANY disk operating system and
>it is often used to refer to the entire IO interface functality even though
>operating system is the better term.  It is an industry standard term.  Like
>serial, ROM, and RAM.  Note also that unix the operating system for many
>main frames is also a form of a DOS.

But what if there's no disk?

What if it is solid state, with holographic storage crystals?

At home, I use a machine with its operating system in ROM.
Part of that operating system is a Disc Filing System to
allow disks to be accessed.

See - no DOS, only a DFS.

So calling it a DOS sounds like 1980's PCs and thus hardly hitech.

To the best of my knowledge, my brain *might* be described as EEPROM
but thes no disc in there. :-)

Phil Kitching

- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 00:11:05 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

>>I had an 8-inch disk drive once, but the only reel-to-reels I had were
audio
>>tapes, on an old Phillips. none of the specialist ones.
>
>All I have to say is: Punch Cards.  :)
>
>Yes, I've used them once.  Yes, it was on an actual in-use machine (not in
>a museum or something).  Yes, I was five years old at the time, why?

I was somewhat older than that when I used them to program the local banks
computer in Algol W

:-)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 00:17:39 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Friday, May 14, 1999 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

>I doubt there will be very many spinning mechanical devices
>involved in a TL 12+ computer, and the term "DOS" will be lost
>in the mists of history.

There are still disks in the TL12 computer on my desk., and underneath Win98
there's still a DOS session.

>Charles, you may not recognize a TL 12 computer for what it
>is. It may well work on principles that you and I don't understand.
>I'm not saying that they *will* be so very different; I'm saying
>that they *may* be. If you disagree with this point, then we don't
>have anything else to say to each other.

You're still working from an invalid premise. You have to realize that a
Traveller TL12 computer is not advanced, and is about same level of
advancement as the computer I'm writing this on.

Traveller is _not_ a high tech universe when it comes to computer tech,
social science, nanotech or biotech .(and possibly several other things as
well )

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:15:28 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

Walter Smith wrote:

>Did you ever notice that, in Traveller, the same skill covers operation, 
>programming, theory, and repair of computers? Why would that be?
>What change would have had to occur in how computers work to
>make a programmer have to know how to rebuild a computer, just
>to do his job? Or is repairing or rebuilding a TL15 computer never more 
>complicated than popping prebuilt modules together?

Two reasons spring to mind:

a. For the same reason that there's one skill covering medical
diagnosis, pharmacology, surgery, anaesthetics, etc. To keep the level
of abstraction at a manageable level.

b. The Imperium uses Mac-descended computers! You need a special tool to
open one, and the only way of fixing it is to replace the
motherboard/holomatrix/insert pseudo-random techspeak here.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 07:48:10 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Roger MacBride Allen's work

Keven wrote:

> Ever read Roger MacBride Allen's 'The Farside Cannon'?  Scary
> stuff... 

No, not yet.  I'm half-way through "The Shattered Sphere", and really 
am enjoying it and the first book of the series, "The Ring Of 
Charon."  Although definitely not compatible with the OTU, I can see 
a lot of color and ideas that can be skimmed from these two books.

What else has he written?  What would you recommend?

Thanks,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:06:43 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

Dom Mooney wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Doesn't the Babbage engine use 1 to 10 not 1's and 0's?
>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm not familiar with the details of the Babbage Engine - that's probably
correct, which would make it a kind of hybrid machine - not quite
analog, but certainly not binary.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 07:24:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

On Fri, 14 May 1999, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> >Uhmm... what's the P-word?
> 
> Don't ask!  ;-> Ok...I'll give you a hint, ethically challenged ship
> crews.

"Yo-ho-ho."

Brannon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 07:45:29 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

SD Mooney wrote:

> Doesn't the Babbage engine use 1 to 10 not 1's and 0's?
> 

Yes, as did ENIAC I. Binary digital computers came very soon thereafter (The
various Mark _somethings_ IIRC in England) and took over.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 07:50:45 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

Matt Clonfero wrote:
> 

> b. The Imperium uses Mac-descended computers! You need a special tool to
> open one, and the only way of fixing it is to replace the
> motherboard/holomatrix/insert pseudo-random techspeak here.

Ahhh thbbbbt! All I need to open _my_ mac are my fingers, and some clear space
to do so (If you saw my office right now yould immediately see that the latter
is the bigger, possibly insoluble part of the problem ;-)

And I suppose you fix your manly-man PC by cracking the chips and resoldering
gates, huh? :-P

Now come here within reach of my 11" #10 Torx driver and main gauche
case-cracker and say that! :-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:47:15 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Analog Aliens

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Have you mentioned these on the list before? I'm getting a really strong
feeling of deja vu here...I've heard of something very much like that
before...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yes, I think a little under a year ago. Charles' discussion on analog
computers naturally brought them to mind. I'm getting more ideas for
them, but they're still too undeveloped for a Contact! article.

Perhaps if I become a Zen Master I'll understand them well enough
to write about them. :-)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:18:18 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Grounding A Starship (aka Planetary Adventures)

Some time back I posted a news story describing how a group of
camels delayed a Russian rocket launch.

Now it's the USA's turn...

- ----------------------------------
Hail Damage Delays Shuttle Mission

 
Published: 1999 May 13 
 
11:07 pm ET (0307 UT)
The first shuttle mission in nearly half a year will be delayed
by another week to ten days to repair damage to the shuttle's
external tank from a recent hailstorm, NASA announced late
Thursday, May 13.

Insulation on the external tank mated to shuttle Discovery,
scheduled for a May 20 launch on mission STS-96, suffered
damage during a hailstorm last week. An estimated 150 divots
were found in the insulation during an inspection after the
storm.

<snip>

The divots themselves pose no risk to the shuttle, since their
relatively small size -- an average diameter of 1.25 cm (0.5 in.)
and a depth of no more than 0.9 cm (0.34 in.) deep -- does not
penetrate all the way through the insulation to the metal of
the tank itself. 

However, shuttle managers are concerned that ice could form in
the divots once the tanks are filled with liquid oxygen and
hydrogen. Chunks of ice could then shake loose from the divots
during launch, striking and damaging the shuttle orbiter.

<snip>

The last time a shuttle was rolled back for repairs was in
June 1995, when Discovery was rolled back to repair holes in
the external tank's insulation caused by woodpeckers.
- ----------------------------------

(woodpeckers...ROFLMAO. Nature has a unique way of keeping
us humble.)

ObTrav: Although hi-TL ships usually don't have to worry about
damage like this, there *are* critters on various planets which
can do incredible damage once onboard. One of the old JTAS's
has a creature feature (I'm a poet and didn't know it :) on
an eel/worm which digests various light metals, including
shipboard circuitry.

Such a critter is *great* for driving PCs crazy with intermittent
hardware failures or keeping their ship grounded for a time
through lifeform infection quarantine, fines/jail time for
transporting dangerous lifeforms between planets, repair
time/costs, etc.

And, of course, the horror of finding the husks of hatched
eggs/molted skin onboard some weeks after the ship and crew are
allowed to go their way is just fun, fun, fun.

'sigh' I *so* glad I'm starting a campaign in 2 weeks.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:17:01 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

At 07:24 AM 5/14/99 -0700, you wrote:
>On Fri, 14 May 1999, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>> >Uhmm... what's the P-word?
>> 
>> Don't ask!  ;-> Ok...I'll give you a hint, ethically challenged ship
>> crews.
>
>"Yo-ho-ho."

"Arrr, an' a bottle o' rum, too!"

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:20:38 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>You called it DOS. You make yourself sound like a PC dweeb when you're 
>explaining the computer systems of the galaxy-spanning Imperium with 
>terms like "DOS"...even if it is IDOS instead of MS-DOS. ;-) 
>

It is DOS.  DOS is a generic term referring to ANY disk operating system and it is often used to refer to the entire IO interface functality even though
operating system is the better term.  It is an industry standard term.  Like
serial, ROM, and RAM.  Note also that unix the operating system for many
main frames is also a form of a DOS.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Say "DOS" to any computer industry professional and they'll think
you're talking about a PC platform. The "IDOS" I was referring to was
the "Imperial Disk Operating System" you referred to in your post. Tell
a UNIX programmer that UNIX is a form of a DOS and he'll look at you
real funny until you explain what you meant. If he doesn't beat you to
death before you get the chance.... <WEG>

OS is the better term, and the industry standard term.

<snip Charles' extensive arguments about needing details to allow a
player character to use his Computer skill in a game without it being
reduced to "I have Computer-3, what's my target number>

There has to be a better way to handle the dramatic playing of Computer
skill than strongly limiting Traveller computer science to 20th century 
details. What do you do to create a dramatic scene in the Engine Room?

I like your idea of fighting a Virus by deliberately crippling your computer
system. If you can artificially lower the effective TL of your computer far
enough, Virus would become dormant. It might take you a week to 
calculate the jump parameters for the trip home instead of an hour,
but it might still be possible. You still have a 20th century tech problem,
though - you're assuming that the computer technician can do a CRC
on every bit of code run by the computer and only allow approved code
to run. This makes all sorts of assumptions about the nature of computer
commands (especially on the system level), and assumes the system 
doesn't perform modifications on the code for future operations. We see
the latter problem today, with some kinds of false positives from antivirus 
software.

But CyberJocks in Traveller? HERETIC!!!  ;-)

<regarding Charles' arguments on purpose-built vs self-modifying:>
My college bought a couple thousand computers. All of them are very
general-purpose machines, they can run all kinds of software and
support many kinds of hardware. Strangely enough, we have almost
no machines that are purpose-built as word processors, only a few
that were purpose-built as mainframe terminals, and one guy who
bought a purpose-built machine for keeping address books.
Why don't we have all purpose-built machines? They would have been
cheaper and more effective, right?

If my matrix-core computer plus the configuration tool costs twice as
much to build as a purpose-built computer (to get the *same* performance),
I'll just have to mass-produce enough of them to let economies of scale
knock 60% off my per-unit cost. The purpose-built machine may hang
on to a tiny slice of market share, but my fit-anywhere, do-anything
machines will eventually be fitting everywhere and doing everything.
Remember, my machines can work like a custom-built machine in 
any environment you put them in - if it has a 3dTn computer bay, I can
sell a Model/3 computer to them. One big company squishes 1000
little companies, especially in the 3I.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:35:30 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

At 02:54 PM 5/13/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I've got even more news for you.  Babage's difference engine could in theory
>have been built with only water power and medevil metalurgy.  It was just a
>very complecated clock after all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I'd like to take the concept a little bit further. The sophonts in question
>don't end up choosing digital computers over analog ones, digital
>computers simply never occur to them - the idea of something being
>absolutely one thing or the other is just too alien to them. Thus, 
>instead of abandoning analog computers, they develop them - even
>overdevelop them. To them, thinking in this form is normal, their computer
>theory won't have an absolutist logic at it's base.
>
>A supercomputer is just a very complicated adding machine. What would
>these sophonts' "very complicated clocks" be capable of after 1000 years
>of development?
>
>I've been thinking about these critters for a bit, trying to figure out what
>their technology would be like. They may be a bit too alien, though - 
>just trying to understand their concept of scientific method drives me nuts.
>
>Hey, look at me, I'm live-action roleplaying an IISS Sophontologist!! :)
>

Well, maybe this will help in one area.

We are today building molecular machines. Gears and motors the size of
single cells.  Perhaps that race would develop a clock work 'chip' with
meshing gears to replace the input and output pins on electronic chips.  At
this scale the diference engine could be built into a wrist watch.

Also if this culture does not see black and white then no question will be
answered yes or no, only 'that appears to be the way it is in this time and
place under these conditions as observered by those present'.  They would be
past masters of the Hysenberg uncurtainty prenciple!  Working out a trade
deal could take a while through translaters as all the conditions would have
to be worked out including a 'if everything goes real Murphy on us'
condition.  Their contracts would be interesting.  Their lawyers scary!
Degrees of guilt would be a major part of their legal system.

These people could be dour worry worts or happy 'take life as it is and
don't worry to much' types.  Or both at the same time and everything in between!

Can you imagine there religion!?  A funeral on this planet could sound like
the intro to 'Lords of Light'.

You've got a fasinating idea here.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:35:41 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Psionic Virus (was Re: A 12-step program ...)

At 02:25 PM 5/13/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>OK, I could live with that if the limits of that power is defined.
>>
>>How far away does this psionic power work?
>
>The range of a communicator or hard-wired network. It is not telepathic,
>but must work through a carrier signal like a transponder or modem.
>
>
>>Point's require to posess a computer on a given size?
>>Points available to the virus to use this power? Time
>>it takes to recover thos points once used?
>
>It doesn't use psi points as characters do ...
>
>or
>
>It does, but you don't need to worry about it (cause it's a plot device).
>Kind of like a major deity in AD&D ...
>
>or
>
>However many you want to give it as a referee.
>
>
>>With that infomation, the virus can be put against PCs and the GM will be
>>able to play the virus fairly.
>
>How so? It's sole psi power is limited to infecting other systems and
>reproducing itself.
>
>
>>But this begs the questions, if it is psionic:
>>Will a psishield stop it?
>
>Only if the psi shield stops a radio carrier signal (it doesn't use
>traditional telepathy "mind-control waves," whatever *those* are).
>
>
>>Can a psi fight it?
>
>Possibly, if he has computer empathy and other unspecified powers (as left
>open to the Referee in the TNE rules).
>Maybe a templar chaplain can cast a rite of exorcism. ;-)
>
>
>>Why does it need the transponder at all?
>
>This is it's medium of possession. Not all psionic powers are telepathy.
>
>
>>Why is an isolated computer immune?
>
>'Cause not all psionic powers are telepathy.
>
>
>>Why is a computer without a transponder take longer to take over?
>
>I dunno about that.
>
>
>>Why does it need a com connection?
>
>'Cause not all psionic powers are telepathy. ;-)
>
>Ciao,
>
>Joseph R. Dietrich
>yikes@evansville.net
>
>

Good start BUT (You expected that didn't you) once you define the media you
define the limits.  Psionic are magic because no one has defined the method
of operation.  When you say the the power is electromaneticly transmited you
are no longer talking psionic.  The 'power' is limited by the media sence
the media much conform to the physics that are known about it.

In short it is an either/or situation.  It is either and electromagetic or
psionic effect.  Not both.  If it is 'magic' it uses 'magic' as it's media
not power lines.  Also the psionic justification falls apart when you look
at the seed concept.  That is a computer paradium.

How if the virus has to be running in the host computer as a program to use
its' psionic power to 'burn it's self in' it might fit.  It does not spead
by psioncs it just uses psionic once there to consolidate its' hold on the
system.  This does open a nasty door though.  It means there must be a
algorithim for psionic powers!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:35:52 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Analog Aliens

At 04:22 PM 5/13/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Their language would probably be a contiuous modulated tone, if they use
>sound to communicate. Ideas would be communicated by the frequency,
>amplitude and most importantly, rate of change if the tone. They could
>likely communicate to each other simultaneously, in a multiplex fashion,
>using differing base frequencies. For color, no pun intended, they could
>also use color changes and patterns as a component of commmunication,
>much like certain species of squids apparently do. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Thanks for the post, Bruce - I hadn't twigged on the lack of countable
>manipulatory appendages.
>
>My original idea for these guys started with an old sketch of a critter with
>a big eye. My thought was that they would communicate with continuously
>changing color patterns in the eye itself, with massive amounts of
>information being communicated at any time - a necessity if your world
>concepts are all matters of degree, you can't answer any questions
>with Yes or No. I don't know that communication would necessarily
>be slow, just (to humans) agonizingly complete.
>
>Intelligent amoeboids - makes me think of the Rame from SPI's 
>_Starforce_ universe. The Rame were groupmind creatures, though -
>but I have an idea that these analog aliens might *seem* like groupmind
>creatures to an IISS First Contact team. They don't communicate in
>symbols, they communicate in entire concept structures, with the
>meaning interactively changing as it's presented (due to the continuous
>response of the "speaker" to the communications of the "listeners").
>
>Imagine standing up and declaring, "Kissenger's _On Diplomacy_" - 
>and in stating that, you've transmitted the core ideas of the book, your
>emotional state regarding the ideas, and your responses to the
>audiences' critiques of both the core ideas and your attempts to relate
>the ideas to your worldview. Now imagine that every instance of
>communication in your society occurs on that level.
>
>They could probably fill a hospital ship with the IISS linguists driven
>nuts over these sophonts... :-)
>

Have a second ship ready for the pyscologists.  It would take weeks or month
to analise the 3 second responce to, "tell me about your mother'!  There
would be mass suicides among the Fruedian!  The battle between nature and
nurture might reach the level of nuclear war!

It's posible  that only telepaths capable of full communion contact could
understand them.

And even if they are TL7-10 or so their technology would have a massive
impact on the 3I.  Their radically different approaches would spark a
research 'gold rush' like that caused by the transiter and plastics.  The
scouts would have to limit comtact to prevent 'boom town' problems.  Demand
for their outlook could lead to some interesting senerios.  Toss in a few
'ethically chaledged' scietists with money and a PC group willing to 'run
the blocade' and you got something interesting.  Say those scientist wanted
a child of this race to raise to test some theories of thought patterns,
developement, and to have long term access to the insights of this species.
Suppose 'junier' bonds to a PC.  and how exactly do you contain an ameboid
anyway?

Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #624
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 14 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 625



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Re: Computer Technology
Re: one minor comment on Virus
re: Computer Technology
re: Computer Technology
re: Computer Technology
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #621
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Analog Aliens Take II
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
re: Computer Technology
Re: Analog Aliens
:>  was Re: Computer Technology
re: Analog Aliens Take II
re: Computer Technology
The P-word
Searching for Craig Barnett
Re: Analog Aliens Take II
Re: Analog Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:36:03 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

At 02:17 PM 5/13/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Charles said:
>> It is DOS.  DOS is a generic term referring to ANY disk operating system and
>> it is often used to refer to the entire IO interface functality even though
>> operating system is the better term.  It is an industry standard term.  Like
>> serial, ROM, and RAM.  Note also that unix the operating system for many
>> main frames is also a form of a DOS.
>
>Charles, you're showing a bias towards a very old set of 
>"industry standard terms". Even today, we're moving away from 
>the term "DOS" to mean "operating system" precisely because 
>the OS (the modern preferred term) does, as you say, include 
>a lot of non-disk functionality. Hence "MacOS" rather than 
>"MacDOS". 
>

I stated that OS was the preferd term today as well.  Dos is a bit dated an
in some cases to specific and misleading.

>I doubt there will be very many spinning mechanical devices 
>involved in a TL 12+ computer, and the term "DOS" will be lost
>in the mists of history. 
>

Maybe program modules will just be hard coded ROM in a convient package.
That is a posibility but either way there will be an operating system to
interface with what ever form portable storage takes.

>Charles, you may not recognize a TL 12 computer for what it
>is. It may well work on principles that you and I don't understand.
>I'm not saying that they *will* be so very different; I'm saying
>that they *may* be. If you disagree with this point, then we don't
>have anything else to say to each other.
>

Well yes, and no.  I have my doughts the the interface (visual monitor and
an input device) will change much unless, neural interfaces become an
everyday tool.  If we stay with monitors and input devices then I dought it
woulds take a modern computer guru long to get up to speed on future
systems.  The user interface has tended to become more helpfull and more
intuitive over time.  If that trend continues then far enough in the future
a computer user may only need to voice his request to have the computer do
his bidding.  I do not see how this would be dificult to understand.  You
would ask the system for appropriate analogies discribing it's structure and
proceed for there.  Regardless of advancement the computer function is the same.

Also my suggestion is that it is posible that we have reached TL12 in
computer science may mean that further advancement will slow.  It is posible
that there will be very little change in computers between now and the time
of traveller but more than likely the writters of traveller all those years
ago just did not expect computers to develope as fast as they did and
underestimated computer progess my 5 or more orders of magitude.

This is one of the boondogles I dought will ever be solved.  In MTU the
computers are voice controled very advanced versions of todays main frames.
I rationalize their excessive size by counting it as control mechanizms for
running the ship and backup sub systems for peek load.  Physical size of
actuaters is not likely to decrease by much due to limits in materals and
size constrates to stroke arm lengths plus the clearence needed to
accomodate arm swing so the BIG part of the computers is the mechanics to
control such things as doors, airlock, turrets, power plants, ext.  This
level of automation is what lets on person pilot a scout ship.  To get any
better results you have to have self mobile unit (robots) and they cost extra.  


In MTU there is a curtain bias against robots doing jobs people could safely
do.  People that replace people with robots are thought to be cheap or
miserly.  Having human or other live sophots as employees/sevant is
considered a mark of wealth and status.  After all, nobles have lots of live
servants and THEY are the top dogs.  This is mainly due to many people and
few high paying jobs.  The lower classes are large and the middle class
fairly small.  Star ship crew are middle class.  Brokers range from upper
lower class to upper class.  Cargo handling robots (the only job untrained
labor can do) are hated by the unemployed of the lower classes.  But that is
MTU only.  It's a bit dirtier than most.  Star ship crews can make alot of
friends, hear plenty of rummers, and loose some cargo to pilferage if they
hire local poor to load cargo at class C, D & E star ports.  A & B always
use professionals, robots, or both.  A drink with the help in a local bar
(crew buying) doesn't hurt either.  A ship that visits regularly and hires
the same people regularly are likely to have allies when they need them and
maybe the occational speculative cargo from George's country cozen with a
mellon surplus.  Of course that mean the PC can't really cheat the locals if
they want to keep their friends BUT the local corporation are fair game.
They fired George after 10 year loyal service and replace him with a
gawl-darned robot!  This condition is pretty common on high pop worlds or
mid tech world on a trade route (a second industrial revolution caused by
import of robots).

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:36:15 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

At 12:17 AM 5/14/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>What are they?
>>>-Stephen
>>>
>>
>>There's a LONG list.  Start back with the Nordon bomb sight and the inigma
>>device and go up through barber-colmans and moores.  Toss in WW2 TDCs and
>>balistic targeting computers and you have a start.  Do not forget the
>>difference engine in the smithsonian though or the old mechanical cash
>>registers.
>
>The Enigma was Electromechanical, FWIW.
>

The electrical was motors only IIRC.  They just drove the clock work.  The
same was true with the Nordon.  The TDC was hand cranked and used electrical
motor and electircal switches were use to pass the results to the torpedos
but the calculations were done by clock work.  Again IIRC.

Charles L

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:36:26 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

At 02:05 AM 5/14/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
>> I doubt there will be very many spinning mechanical devices 
>> involved in a TL 12+ computer, and the term "DOS" will be lost
>> in the mists of history. 
>
>Barbarian (B) talking to TL-15-world Citizen (C):
>
>D: "... so, the Operating System of your computer..." 
>
>C: "The what???"
>
>D: "You know, the very basic program on which other programs run..."
>
>C: "Program?? Whatever you mean?"
>
>D: "You know, a set of instructions or encoded orders given in such a 
>ways that they make the computer perform a task..."
>
>C: "Oh, I see!! Instructions! Orders! Yes, of course, you have to 
>order the computer to do things, otherwise it does nothing. Aha. For 
>example, let me 'program' our meal: COMPUTER, PREPARE DINNER!"
>
>;-)
>

Of course.  C is a user.  All he needs to know is what he wants.  The
computer will tell him how much the plugins to do that task will cost and
even place the order and do the ungrade for him.  The programer is the guy
that write the code (ususally he is expected to do so instantly and without
bugs) after the sale man gets the order for the product he promised the
customer that is still on the drawing board.

Dilbet, it more right that you know!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:36:37 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

At 06:25 PM 5/13/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> At 01:43 AM 5/12/99 EDT, you wrote:
>>>In a message dated 99-05-11 18:50:41 EDT, you write:
>>>
>>><< Then cobble togethere some good old fashioned analog control systems.  
>> Let
>>> the virus try to munch on those!  Or a mechanical control system like the
>>> old Barber-Coldmans. >>
>
>> They would turn into real AIR-heads and gear-heads.  Those systems were
>> pnumatic and clockwork!  And you would really be surprised at all the things
>> they could do in the way of process control.  Remember in WW2 the TDCs,
>> Nordon bomb sights, and balistic targeting computer on ships were all 
>> clockwork!
>
>Do keep in mind that "analog computer" does *not* mean
>"non-electronic". The current electronic part for building analog
>controllers is the op-amp. 
>

Yep, the electronic 'jack of all trades'!  Form servos to sterios.

>For a lot of real-world control of equipment type applications, analog
>is far superior to digital. You get faster feedback, and "programming"
>errors tend to be either immediately obvious major ones, or else
>trivial hidden ones. 
>

Both of those depends on a great many things, particularly complexity.  Also
'reprograming' can be a problem, bring your sordering iron.  Servo systems
can get very complex and debuging cycle time can be long if specs and
tolerences are tight.  Think about the control system for something like the
Phalanx CIDS.

Op-amps and digital systems can compliment each other very well also.  Mixed
signal systems can solve some problems better/faster/cheaper that either
alone.  It can be a tough call in borderline cases.

>An analog computer would give Virus a nervous breakdown. :-)
>

Or 'process it' into a techno hip-hop chart buster. (grin)

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:36:48 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

At 12:38 PM 5/14/99 +0100, you wrote:
>At 18:43 13/05/1999 +0000, Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>wrote:
>
>>I've got even more news for you.  Babage's difference engine could in theory
>>have been built with only water power and medevil metalurgy.  It was just a
>>very complecated clock after all.
>
>I heard different, speficially that the tolerances and material properties
>requied to make it work meant that it couldn't have been completed last
>century at realistic cost (ie it was a TL6 computer!)
>

True, at it's current size (large table) it was at the edge of 19 century
technology's limits but the best timepieces of that time were within
tolerence. It's been a bone of contention for a while now.  Even the people
who built the thing are not sure what COULD have been done.  The history of
mechanical technology is not to exact.  People gaurded there industrial
secrets closely back then.  I read a few articals on it and when it was
'doable'.  There was no real consensese among those who know a lot more
about it that I ever will.  I think it's one of those 'what ifs' we will
never know the 'real' answer for.

If it were up scaled so the tolerences were losser then it should have been
no problem but that is just specualtion on my part.  Even if the materials
were there, the inventer was not. It would make a good 'lost world' for
traveller though.

As for cost, look at the UNIVAX.  It was a real pocket breaker but it was
the only game in town.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:36:59 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

At 12:47 PM 5/14/99 +0100, you wrote:
>At 20:47 13/05/1999 +0000, Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>wrote:
>>>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>DOS stands for disk operating system.  It's the basic IO bridge
>>>functionality.  All computers have some version of a 'DOS' if it has any
>>>connections to the real world and this can do usefull work.  It may not be
>>>call DOS but the functionallity is there.  Humans have similer systems like
>>>the visual cortex.  It is not wise to make fun of things you do not
>>>understand.  It reflects badly on you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>You called it DOS. You make yourself sound like a PC dweeb when you're 
>>>explaining the computer systems of the galaxy-spanning Imperium with 
>>>terms like "DOS"...even if it is IDOS instead of MS-DOS. ;-) 
>>>
>>
>>It is DOS.  DOS is a generic term referring to ANY disk operating system and
>>it is often used to refer to the entire IO interface functality even though
>>operating system is the better term.  It is an industry standard term.  Like
>>serial, ROM, and RAM.  Note also that unix the operating system for many
>>main frames is also a form of a DOS.
>
>But what if there's no disk?
>
>What if it is solid state, with holographic storage crystals?
>
>At home, I use a machine with its operating system in ROM.
>Part of that operating system is a Disc Filing System to
>allow disks to be accessed.
>
>See - no DOS, only a DFS.
>

Symantics, they are the same thing like using the genus and philum instead
of it's common name for an animal.  Your DFS is a subsystem inside the DOS
which is a subsystem in the OS.  Do we really need to nit pick at this level?

>So calling it a DOS sounds like 1980's PCs and thus hardly hitech.
>
>To the best of my knowledge, my brain *might* be described as EEPROM
>but thes no disc in there. :-)
>

Electrically Erasable Programable Read Only Memeory?  I dought it, unless
you plan on using the electric chair for a very permanate 'erasure' (Grin)

This is all symantics.  If you prefer, use the more generic term of OS
(operating system) which does not contain a reference to the nature of the
hardware.

As for the human mind, I think the proper term for it is a 'huristic'
(spelling) system.  I'm not positive of that though.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:51:38 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Of course.  C is a user.  All he needs to know is what he wants.  The
computer will tell him how much the plugins to do that task will cost and
even place the order and do the ungrade for him.  The programer is the guy
that write the code (ususally he is expected to do so instantly and without
bugs) after the sale man gets the order for the product he promised the
customer that is still on the drawing board.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
It's possible that, for a high TL culture, computer programming
complexity (at least at the OS level) exceeded the limits of human
comprehension centuries ago. The computers a computer professional
operates and repairs were designed and system-programmed by 
an earlier computer, that was programmed by an earlier computer,
and so on until you get back to the last major OS programming project
that directly involved a human brain at the each-line-of-code level.
(Cut to faded, yellowed graphic of a smiling Bill Gates. ;-)  )

The bugs in, say, Windows NT may indicate that we're already
approaching such a limit, and we may stay at such a complexity
limit until expert systems are developed which program OS's.

I've seen some SF universes - some Heinlein, for example - where
computer "programmers" were more like modern-day psychologists.
The computer system was so complex that these "Cyberpsychs"
would do more teaching and reasoning with than programming. 
This is too far for Traveller, but I thought it was an interesting idea.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:12:39 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #621

>>>> (begin quoted material)
All I have to say is: Punch Cards.  :)

Yes, I've used them once.  Yes, it was on an actual in-use machine (not
in
a museum or something).  Yes, I was five years old at the time, why?

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training
>>>> (end quoted material)
I had to be able to read punch cards (Hollerith code) for the computer
merit badge in Boy Scouts.  I had fun with punch cards and a VAX machine
(late 70s if you are wondering).
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 08:49:53
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 01:25 AM 5/14/99 -0500, you wrote:

>When I teach computer concepts, each term, I pull out my box of
>"junk" and show the students things we used to compute with.  Most
>have never seen vacuum tubes, punched cards, transistors,
>reel-to-reel tapes, big 18" metal disks and disk packs, or my prized
>"hunk o'core."  Heck, most have never seen a slide rule.  ;->

The computer shop Kirsten and I use has a display of hard drives in their
lobby.  Going from this forty pound monstrosity with a whopping 10 meg to
their most recent addition, and drive the size of a Walkman with some
obscene number of gigabytes.  Makes you appreciate progress.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:07:51 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II

I just thought of another evolutionary pathway for these things, one
that'll _really_ mess with the Imperium's head.

A race of natural telekinetics. Again, they have no need for digits;
they manipulate things solely with the power of their minds, so they'll
have the requisite 'degrees of force' analog world view.

Pretty much the same tech and cultural conditions applies to the Squids
as to the Lumps, but the Lumps could exist in a far wider range of
environments. They would probably have evolved into grazer or predators
from simple filter feeders, where the first primitive ones started
'steering' food to their mouths with primitive telekinesis. Soon some
were able to move themselves, as well as their food and they're off.
These could develop quite high tech that would be utterly unusable by
humans, even talented telekinetics, because, while you could manipulate
a handle-less hammer, how would you manipulate a handle-less jump drive?

Man, the 3I would RedZone this world so fast the scouts heads would
spin.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:46:43 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>> b. The Imperium uses Mac-descended computers! You need a special tool to
>> open one, and the only way of fixing it is to replace the
>> motherboard/holomatrix/insert pseudo-random techspeak here.
>
>Ahhh thbbbbt! All I need to open _my_ mac are my fingers, and some clear space
>to do so (If you saw my office right now yould immediately see that the latter
>is the bigger, possibly insoluble part of the problem ;-)
>
>And I suppose you fix your manly-man PC by cracking the chips and resoldering
>gates, huh? :-P
>
>Now come here within reach of my 11" #10 Torx driver and main gauche
>case-cracker and say that! :-)

Aha, we have found the Mac Evangelista! The new Mac design is quite neat
- - in fact, it's kind of like the Dell PClones that we were forced to buy
a couple of years back.

I try not to use PCs for serious work when I get the choice, though -
the OSs are too flaky for mission-critical stuff.

I *have* fixed a (custom) system by resoldering a surface mount chip,
but I'm not bothering with that again.

I think that my gas soldering iron (with blowtorch mod) and anti-static
shield are more than a match for your puny weapons :>

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:12:27 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

At 12:17 AM 5/15/99 +1200, you wrote:
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
>To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Sent: Friday, May 14, 1999 9:17 AM
>Subject: Re: Computer Technology
>
>>I doubt there will be very many spinning mechanical devices
>>involved in a TL 12+ computer, and the term "DOS" will be lost
>>in the mists of history.
>
>There are still disks in the TL12 computer on my desk., and underneath Win98
>there's still a DOS session.
>
>>Charles, you may not recognize a TL 12 computer for what it
>>is. It may well work on principles that you and I don't understand.
>>I'm not saying that they *will* be so very different; I'm saying
>>that they *may* be. If you disagree with this point, then we don't
>>have anything else to say to each other.
>
>You're still working from an invalid premise. You have to realize that a
>Traveller TL12 computer is not advanced, and is about same level of
>advancement as the computer I'm writing this on.
>
>Traveller is _not_ a high tech universe when it comes to computer tech,
>social science, nanotech or biotech .(and possibly several other things as
>well )
>
>Frankie
>

That is all to true.  Traveller was written in the 70s.  We have already
caught up to it technology wise.  1984 was written in the 50s, I think.  We
pasted it in the 70s and unfortunately the scary stuff has come true too in
a slightly different form than in the book.  There is a book written in 1984
comparing and contrasting the book 1984 with the real world 1984.  The
paralells and similarities are scary.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:12:38 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

At 10:06 AM 5/14/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Dom Mooney wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Doesn't the Babbage engine use 1 to 10 not 1's and 0's?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I'm not familiar with the details of the Babbage Engine - that's probably
>correct, which would make it a kind of hybrid machine - not quite
>analog, but certainly not binary.
>

As I understood it from the artical it was true analog and base 10 like a
slide rule.  I could be wrong though.  I read about it last year and may
have forgotten or misremembered some of the details.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 18:03:35 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> wrote:
>Uhmm... what's the P-word?

Putting the little black lace hankerchief onto the wig.

"Pirates,.... and may God have mercy on your soul!"

He asked about Pirates, ohmigawd it's starting again.....

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 18:17:58 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: :>  was Re: Computer Technology

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes
>> b. The Imperium uses Mac-descended computers! You need a special tool to
>> open one, and the only way of fixing it is to replace the
>> motherboard/holomatrix/insert pseudo-random techspeak here.
>
>Ahhh thbbbbt! All I need to open _my_ mac are my fingers, and some clear space
>to do so (If you saw my office right now yould immediately see that the latter
>is the bigger, possibly insoluble part of the problem ;-)
>
>And I suppose you fix your manly-man PC by cracking the chips and resoldering
>gates, huh? :-P
>
>Now come here within reach of my 11" #10 Torx driver and main gauche
>case-cracker and say that! :-)

Well, my PowerBook requires a cross headed screwdriver to open it, and the
6400 can be done using thumbscrews (that didn't come out quite how I
meant!) ie screws you can turn with your thumb. The K2 and G3 boxes are
even easier...

Methinks Matt is confused - the Apples I've seen are easier to open than
the Dells, Digitals and Compaqs at work.

And I won't go into how much easier to use ;-)

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:22:39 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Analog Aliens Take II

Bruce Johnson wrote (on Telekinetic Analog Aliens)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Man, the 3I would RedZone this world so fast the scouts heads would
spin.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh yeah....but just imagine the Commodore in charge of the interdiction
squadron.

"How far from the planet can these Lumps play with the switches and
levers in our Engine Rooms? Line of sight? You're sure of this?"

<G>

Neat idea, BTW.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:27:57 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As I understood it from the artical it was true analog and base 10 like a
slide rule.  I could be wrong though.  I read about it last year and may
have forgotten or misremembered some of the details.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My point was that a completely analog device wouldn't have digital
markings at all. We add them to help us make better use of the output.

The Analog Aliens I've been thinking of don't conceptualize in discrete
numbers. If they had a slide rule, it might be marked with a color spectrum
instead of a series of digits.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:39:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: The P-word

On Fri, 14 May 1999, SD Mooney wrote:

> Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> wrote:
> >Uhmm... what's the P-word?
> 
> Putting the little black lace hankerchief onto the wig.
> 
> "Pirates,.... and may God have mercy on your soul!"
> 
> He asked about Pirates, ohmigawd it's starting again.....

PIRATES? Oh come on, you really don't think there could be pirates in the
Third Imperium do you? I'll bet that- Hey! Who are you people?! Get out of
my office! Let me go! What are you doing to my compu-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:45:26 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Searching for Craig Barnett

I am trying to contact Craig Barnett, who posted two articles on 9 Feb 99:
"New GURPS Traveller Modules" and "More GT Modules". I would like to use
some of the modules presented in GT: Starships, but I need his explicit
permission. I believe he may live in Australia, if any of the Aussies can
help. 

Thanks, all.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:48:38 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> A race of natural telekinetics. Again, they have no need for digits;
> they manipulate things solely with the power of their minds, so they'll
> have the requisite 'degrees of force' analog world view.

Larry Niven detailed a race like this in Known Space's "Grogs", IIRC. I always
meant to introduce them to my Traveller universe.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:59:25 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

At 06:03 PM 5/14/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> wrote:
>>Uhmm... what's the P-word?
>
>Putting the little black lace hankerchief onto the wig.
>
>"Pirates,.... and may God have mercy on your soul!"
>
>He asked about Pirates, ohmigawd it's starting again.....

Shiver me timbers, open the airlocks and run out the guns!  And get this
damn parrot off my shoulder!

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #625
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 14 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 626



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Analog Aliens Take II
Re: Computer Technology
re: Analog Aliens, Take II
:>  was Re: Computer Technology
re: Computer Technology
re: Computer Technology
Re: Musn't say the "P-word"
Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...)
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)
Re: Computer Technology
re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Psionic Virus
Ziranii: Vilani Psionics Society

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:13:21 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II

Ooh I'd forgotten all about them. Didn't the Grogs have this really fast
whiplike tongue, too?

The Lumps aren't sessile, I'm visualizing something more like mobile
blobs of something..probably vertebrates of some sort, given the size
I'm imagining, which is .5 to 1 meter long and .25 to .5 meter wide and
about .2 high, with a mouth at one end.

Hmmmm...I think I have a Contact article coming on. Mind if I do these
guys, Walter? You can have the Squids or your Eyeball guys...these races
would be natural allies, and probably get along like
gangbusters...hmmm...the Analog Empire. 

Erwin Fritz wrote:
> 
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> >
> > A race of natural telekinetics. Again, they have no need for digits;
> > they manipulate things solely with the power of their minds, so they'll
> > have the requisite 'degrees of force' analog world view.
> 
> Larry Niven detailed a race like this in Known Space's "Grogs", IIRC. I always
> meant to introduce them to my Traveller universe.
> 
> --
> Erwin Fritz
> UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
> Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
> http://www.glja.com

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:14:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In mail you write:

> Dom Mooney wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Doesn't the Babbage engine use 1 to 10 not 1's and 0's?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I'm not familiar with the details of the Babbage Engine - that's probably
> correct, which would make it a kind of hybrid machine - not quite
> analog, but certainly not binary.

It's definitely *digital*, not analog. Binary is simpler to build, but
not otherwise superior. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:15:51 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Analog Aliens, Take II

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hmmmm...I think I have a Contact article coming on. Mind if I do these
guys, Walter? You can have the Squids or your Eyeball guys...these races
would be natural allies, and probably get along like
gangbusters...hmmm...the Analog Empire.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Go for it. You seem to have a good angle on developing the idea
(said the person who got stuck on "they don't have a well-developed
concept of One").

Walt Smith

"I'm more of an idea rat." - Ratbert, from Dilbert

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:42:27 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: :>  was Re: Computer Technology

He's refering to the original MACs.  You know, the ones that came out right
after the LISA.
The original shoebox-on-it's-end MACs required a special, long bladed
screwdriver to open.
A device you could only get from Apple if you were a certified Apple
Technician.

When the next rev of SBOIE Mac came out, it had double the RAM.  An upgrade
to the original ones required this custom screwdriver and a soldering iron.

SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> types:
>Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes
>>> b. The Imperium uses Mac-descended computers! You need a special tool to
>>> open one, and the only way of fixing it is to replace the
>>> motherboard/holomatrix/insert pseudo-random techspeak here.
>>Ahhh thbbbbt! All I need to open _my_ mac are my fingers, and some clear
space
>>to do so (If you saw my office right now yould immediately see that the
latter
>>is the bigger, possibly insoluble part of the problem ;-)
>>And I suppose you fix your manly-man PC by cracking the chips and resoldering
>>gates, huh? :-P
>>Now come here within reach of my 11" #10 Torx driver and main gauche
>>case-cracker and say that! :-)
>Well, my PowerBook requires a cross headed screwdriver to open it, and the
>6400 can be done using thumbscrews (that didn't come out quite how I
>meant!) ie screws you can turn with your thumb. The K2 and G3 boxes are
>even easier...
>Methinks Matt is confused - the Apples I've seen are easier to open than
>the Dells, Digitals and Compaqs at work.
>And I won't go into how much easier to use ;-) 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 18:45:22 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

At 11:20 AM 5/14/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>You called it DOS. You make yourself sound like a PC dweeb when you're 
>>explaining the computer systems of the galaxy-spanning Imperium with 
>>terms like "DOS"...even if it is IDOS instead of MS-DOS. ;-) 
>>
>
>It is DOS.  DOS is a generic term referring to ANY disk operating system
and it is often used to refer to the entire IO interface functality even though
>operating system is the better term.  It is an industry standard term.  Like
>serial, ROM, and RAM.  Note also that unix the operating system for many
>main frames is also a form of a DOS.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Say "DOS" to any computer industry professional and they'll think
>you're talking about a PC platform. The "IDOS" I was referring to was
>the "Imperial Disk Operating System" you referred to in your post. Tell
>a UNIX programmer that UNIX is a form of a DOS and he'll look at you
>real funny until you explain what you meant. If he doesn't beat you to
>death before you get the chance.... <WEG>
>

I am an industry professional, IEEE engineer to be exact.  I design
computers and control system from scratch for a living and have been doing
so for 10 years.  I speak with other industry professionals regularly and
read a dozen trade magazines a month.  DOS is used as a generic term as well
as a specific one amoung those engineers in their 30s or so.  OS is the more
current term.

>OS is the better term, and the industry standard term.
>

As I have said 4 times now.

><snip Charles' extensive arguments about needing details to allow a
>player character to use his Computer skill in a game without it being
>reduced to "I have Computer-3, what's my target number>
>
>There has to be a better way to handle the dramatic playing of Computer
>skill than strongly limiting Traveller computer science to 20th century 
>details. What do you do to create a dramatic scene in the Engine Room?
>

I use the steam ship engine room for ideas combined with Motgumery Scott's
finest moments from the first Star Teck series, and the repair scenes from
the second Star War movie.

>I like your idea of fighting a Virus by deliberately crippling your computer
>system. If you can artificially lower the effective TL of your computer far
>enough, Virus would become dormant. It might take you a week to 
>calculate the jump parameters for the trip home instead of an hour,
>but it might still be possible. You still have a 20th century tech problem,
>though - you're assuming that the computer technician can do a CRC
>on every bit of code run by the computer and only allow approved code
>to run. This makes all sorts of assumptions about the nature of computer
>commands (especially on the system level), and assumes the system 
>doesn't perform modifications on the code for future operations. We see
>the latter problem today, with some kinds of false positives from antivirus 
>software.
>

Perhaps, but it can still be run out of the box, perhaps less efficently and
all you are trying to do is get it to run long enough to get you home after
virus ruins your day.

>But CyberJocks in Traveller? HERETIC!!!  ;-)
>

Thank you! There is a curtain high tech high pop world in the Marches I play
as a veriation on the cyberpunk world.  Great programers are available there
but bring guns if you plan to travel away from the star port...BIG GUNS.

><regarding Charles' arguments on purpose-built vs self-modifying:>
>My college bought a couple thousand computers. All of them are very
>general-purpose machines, they can run all kinds of software and
>support many kinds of hardware. Strangely enough, we have almost
>no machines that are purpose-built as word processors, only a few
>that were purpose-built as mainframe terminals, and one guy who
>bought a purpose-built machine for keeping address books.
>Why don't we have all purpose-built machines? They would have been
>cheaper and more effective, right?
>

What, where did this come from?  I said the opposite.  General purpose
systems would be cheaper because of mass production.  Something out of
context here.  Oh I see.  Yes, a purpose built (not general purpose) system
would be more electronicly efficent than a system that self reconfigured
itself mostly do to forsight and lack of overhead waste.  The purpose built
system would cost more but that's the price you pay for top end efficency.
If cost is the deturmening facter then a general pupose non reconfiguring
system may be the cheapest due to lack of wasted overhead.  It just depends
of how close to the bleeding edge you need to be.  If responce times are
real critical an analog system might be best.

>If my matrix-core computer plus the configuration tool costs twice as
>much to build as a purpose-built computer (to get the *same* performance),

Somewhere in here the terms got scrambled up.

General purpose = Built to do many things not one particular thing : main
frames or PCs

Dedicated = one function: purpose built for it's job though it may contain
off the shelf parts:  Missle guidence systems, temperture controlers, combat
robots.

Custom built = One of a kind or very limited run (may be dedicated but does
not have to be): the computer for my car, Some video editing systems and
animation systems.  This is were your reconfigurable core would find it's
nitch.  As these system already has starup cost problems a reconfigurable
core could cut costs and reduce cycle time.  It could also spread mass
production quantities over a vast number of different custom jobs.  Today
this nitch is fill with PLCs which are this TLs easily reconfigured system.
I'm hoping for some great leaps in this area of technology.  It would make
my job a lot easier.  Right now overhead limits the size of the system you
can build with these cheaply.  Functionallity is also somewhat limited.

Purpose built = Built to fit a particular purpose including general purpose:
This applied to nearly anything that is designed with an end use in mind.

>I'll just have to mass-produce enough of them to let economies of scale
>knock 60% off my per-unit cost. The purpose-built machine may hang
>on to a tiny slice of market share, but my fit-anywhere, do-anything
>machines will eventually be fitting everywhere and doing everything.
>Remember, my machines can work like a custom-built machine in 
>any environment you put them in - if it has a 3dTn computer bay, I can
>sell a Model/3 computer to them. One big company squishes 1000
>little companies, especially in the 3I.
>


Except your reconfigureable will have to be twice as big (or more) to equal
the perfomance of an optomized general purpose system due the the mass and
cost of the reconfurisation system.  Mass producing this system will make
thing worse as the subsystems used in both decrease in price due to mass
production so will the general purpose system price decrease and your system
will still be bigger and more expensive.  You have to have everything that's
in the general purpose system in your reconfigurable system PLUS enough
extra to cover overhead and the reconfiguring system.  Your system would be
GREAT for system prototyping but not for mass production.

Remove custom built and replace with dedecated and you are correct cost
wise.  Replace with General purpose and you are very wrong.  Also as far as
bleeding edge technology goes dedicated systems built for a particular
function will always out perform either general purpose or reconfigurable.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 18:45:34 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

At 11:51 AM 5/14/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Of course.  C is a user.  All he needs to know is what he wants.  The
>computer will tell him how much the plugins to do that task will cost and
>even place the order and do the ungrade for him.  The programer is the guy
>that write the code (ususally he is expected to do so instantly and without
>bugs) after the sale man gets the order for the product he promised the
>customer that is still on the drawing board.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>It's possible that, for a high TL culture, computer programming
>complexity (at least at the OS level) exceeded the limits of human
>comprehension centuries ago. The computers a computer professional
>operates and repairs were designed and system-programmed by 
>an earlier computer, that was programmed by an earlier computer,
>and so on until you get back to the last major OS programming project
>that directly involved a human brain at the each-line-of-code level.
>(Cut to faded, yellowed graphic of a smiling Bill Gates. ;-)  )
>
>The bugs in, say, Windows NT may indicate that we're already
>approaching such a limit, and we may stay at such a complexity
>limit until expert systems are developed which program OS's.
>
>I've seen some SF universes - some Heinlein, for example - where
>computer "programmers" were more like modern-day psychologists.
>The computer system was so complex that these "Cyberpsychs"
>would do more teaching and reasoning with than programming. 
>This is too far for Traveller, but I thought it was an interesting idea.
>

Oh, it is.  Read 'Instramentallity of Mankind' to see why I do not want to
even begin to think about this happening.  When we reach the point the we do
not and can not understand our own technology it is only a matter of time
before we are in real trouble.  Posibly to the extent of mankind doing the
way of the Dodo.  
If we were to reach that point in my life time I'd home school my children
in how to farm with horse and buggy technology.  You can bet they would soon
need it.  Ever lissen to the band Rush?  Try the 2112 album or the song "Red
Barcheta" for another look at this form of unintintial technocracy and some
good Traveller plots as well.  

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:54:37 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Musn't say the "P-word"

> Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:59:25 -0400
> From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
> Subject: Re: Analog Aliens
> 
> Shiver me timbers, open the airlocks and run out the guns!  And get this
> damn parrot off my shoulder!

"First pirates, now talking parrots. What's next -- a singing, dancing
mouse with his own amusement park? Woo hoo!"

Polly "Bad Polly" Lobster
_Muppets'_Treasure_Island_
(a Walt Disney production)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:26:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...)

In mail you write:

>> Yes, but if you drop a drive and a fuel refining unit on it, it can
>> boost essentially *forever*. So it doesn't *need* to free fall. My
>> figures say at 1/1000th of a g, it'll take 600 days to the halfway
>> point, and another 600 of deceleration to bring it to "rest" in the
>> inner system. 
>
> That's 1200 days.  A bit over 3 years, 3 months.

And your point is?
  
>> Remember, at a lower accel you've got a *lot* more time for the delta-V
>> to accumulate.
>
> And you'll *NEED* it.  BTW, what did your figures say the terminal velocity 
> was at 600 days?

Around 520 km/s. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:19:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In mail you write:

> At 10:06 AM 5/14/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>Dom Mooney wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Doesn't the Babbage engine use 1 to 10 not 1's and 0's?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>I'm not familiar with the details of the Babbage Engine - that's probably
>>correct, which would make it a kind of hybrid machine - not quite
>>analog, but certainly not binary.
>>
>
> As I understood it from the artical it was true analog and base 10 like a
> slide rule.  I could be wrong though.  I read about it last year and may
> have forgotten or misremembered some of the details.

Easy rule:

Gears = digital
 cams = analog

Babbages stuff was digital. Lots of gears. 

Mechanical analog computers tend to use various sorts of cams, and
other smooth, but "meshing" surfaces. 
 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:29:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)

In mail you write:

>> >> I say refining, because, since you'd need a few people to tend to the
>> >> drive, you might as well have a few more and have them process the ice.
>> >
>> > Or automate the process.  Higher tech levels can be nice.
>> 
>> I doubt *anyone* is going to trust an automated setup to pilot
>> something that big without human supervision. 
>
> *I* sure dont!!!!  Ever read Roger MacBride Allen's 'The Farside Cannon'?  
> Scary stuff...

It's been done before. You should have been around during one of the
*early* "near-c rock" discussion when I "designed" an accelerator built
into a 1000 km body in the Kuiper belt. At a million g, it could boost
a projectile up to something around 2% of c. 
  
>> >> They'll have a nice place to live for quite a few years (lots of the
>> >> hard to find life support chemicals like nitrogen). And they can use a
>> >> mass driver to boost refined "ice" into orbits that'll get it to the
>> >> inner system much faster. And help bring the body into the desired
>> >> orbit. 
>> >
>> > What gets me is, some of the older desert worlds are bound to have a
>> > few hundred ice balls in their Kuiper Belts, and they've been
>> > civilised (*and* high tech) for quite some time.  And I *KNOW*
>> > there's planets like this in the Solomani Rim, I just don't happen to
>> > have my copy anywhere handy at the moment.  So howcome they didn't
>> > move a few iceteroids insystem and crash 'em into the planet to
>> > provide water yet??
>> 
>> The settlers may *want* the desert climate. New Arabia certainly will. :-)
>> 
>> And *crashing* them into the planet has unfortunate side effects. Soft
>> landing them gets expensive. 
>
> Take yer iceteroid and 'weaken' it by drilling holes all through it.
> Make the holes such that the pieces will be about a meter or less
> when the iceteroid breaks up.  Put the iceteroid in an eccentric
> orbit just *grazing* the edge of the atmosphere.  They'll break up
> and melt, putting the water into the air as water vapor.  Repeat as
> necessary.

Two problems. First, that high in the atmosphere, much of the water
will be dissociated into H and O atoms by solar UV. And due to the
temperatures involved, much of the H will be above escape velocity. 

Second, you are adding the enery of the asteroid into the planetary
atmosphere. That energy is enough to cause *real* problems if you
import any significant amounts of water (as in enough to change the
hydro percentage). Work out the tonnages involved. Then work out how
much energy you'd be dissipating in the atmosphere.

>> There may be a seperate "belter" culture in the far belts. It may take
>> them a *long* time to do it, but it's been conjectured that such a
>> society would spread from one star to another in only a century or so
>> at *sub*-light speeds!
>
> We've *almost* got that technology *now*.  Problem is, it's all at the 
> bottom of a gravity well.

Yeah, the far belters may not want to be anywhere near a star...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:36:09 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

Frank G. Pitt wrote:
> [Russell Bornschlegel wrote:]
>
> >I doubt there will be very many spinning mechanical devices
> >involved in a TL 12+ computer, and the term "DOS" will be lost
> >in the mists of history.
> 
> There are still disks in the TL12 computer on my desk., and underneath Win98
> there's still a DOS session.

Your PC can do the math for a multi-parsec hyperspace jump? Tell 
the difference between a starship hijack attempt and a couple of 
foolish passenger strolling uninvited to the bridge? Predict the 
location of an evading 6-G target half a light-second away based 
on its previous pattern of evasion? Simultaneously? With nary a 
blue-screen-of-death?

Besides, my comment about spinning mechanical devices was tautological
for Classic Traveller, where holo crystal storage is canonical at
TL12, IIRC. 

> You're still working from an invalid premise. You have to realize that a
> Traveller TL12 computer is not advanced, and is about same level of
> advancement as the computer I'm writing this on.

Well, we have another divergence here. I'm familiar with the 
suggestion that the Traveller computers don't do enough for their 
tonnage, and it's probably impossible to reconcile the fact that 
computer cost and size doesn't vary with TL, but your assumption
that a Pentium II is TL 12 seems bogus.

Consider for a moment:

- - A single purchase of a ship's computer puts a terminal with 
entertainment facilities in every stateroom.

- - Entertainment software is below the threshold of counting against
the CPU capacity, regardless of the number of staterooms on the ship.

- - Cutting edge TL8 entertainment software pushes your desktop machine
to its limits. 

I might be willing to grant that your desktop box has most of the
capabilities of a single stateroom workstation -- and as such is 
well below the threshold of a single CPU point.

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:12:54 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

At 06:45 PM 5/14/99 +0000, you wrote:
<<SNIP>>
>If we were to reach that point in my life time I'd home school my children
>in how to farm with horse and buggy technology.  You can bet they would soon
>need it.  Ever lissen to the band Rush?  Try the 2112 album or the song "Red
>Barcheta" for another look at this form of unintintial technocracy and some
>good Traveller plots as well.  

I once used 2112 as background for an Aftermath! campaign.  It was
liberally sprinkled with Ark-II and Traveller for the sci-fi aspect.  Fun game.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:20:32 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

Walter Smith wrote:

>Did you ever notice that, in Traveller, the same skill covers
operation,
>programming, theory, and repair of computers? Why would that be?
>What change would have had to occur in how computers work to
>make a programmer have to know how to rebuild a computer, just
>to do his job? Or is repairing or rebuilding a TL15 computer never more

>complicated than popping prebuilt modules together?

IMTU computer repair requires electronics skill and one level of
computer, sensors repair requires electroics skill and one level of
sensors.  This is to understand the specific operation of the equipment
in question, but the roll is based on the electronics skill.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:24:54 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Psionic Virus

>Good start BUT (You expected that didn't you) once you define the media you
>define the limits. Psionic are magic because no one has defined the method
>of operation.  When you say the the power is electromaneticly transmited you
>are no longer talking psionic.  The 'power' is limited by the media sence
>the media much conform to the physics that are known about it.

Not necessarily. You are not thinking magically enough, Charles. ;-) I did
not try to describe *how* Virus does what it does, but simply what it can
and cannot do.

You are right, of course. This is only a start. :-)


>In short it is an either/or situation.  It is either and electromagetic or
>psionic effect.  Not both.  If it is 'magic' it uses 'magic' as it's media
>not power lines.

It *is* both -- that's the key. Nondualism is a keystone to a lot of
mystical thinking: "Not one, not two, but both one *and* two."

Are mind and body and spirit seperate things? Are they the same? How does
spirt relate to mind? And so on. Remember, when we talk about psionics, we
are talking metaphysics -- at least the kind of psionics that are written
about in Traveller, anyway.

Virus "is a living, thinking [psionic] being that moves through the medium
of electronic information and computing systems the way a fish moves
through water. It is a free-floating consciousness that can move into and
animate [possess] any computing system with enough processing capacity to
house it. This computing system and whatever it controls becomes the host
of Virus, and Virus becomes the equipment it inhabits." (text from TNE, pg.
76; words in brackets mine).


>Also the psionic justification falls apart when you look
>at the seed concept.  That is a computer paradium

It is also a magical idea: An evil spirit inhabiting an object until it is
picked up, at which point the spirit possesses the unfortunate victim.


>How if the virus has to be running in the host computer as a program to use
>its' psionic power to 'burn it's self in' it might fit.  It does not spead
>by psioncs it just uses psionic once there to consolidate its' hold on the
>system.  This does open a nasty door though.  It means there must be a
>algorithim for psionic powers!

Not necessarily. You see, the thing is that psionics are a huge, honking
handwave that lets one live with Virus despite all of the very valid
logical arguments against it. That's Hans' point, which I am reiterating.

In truth, I wouldn't use psionics if I were going to run a "hard sf"
Traveller game, simply because there is no compelling reason to believe
they exist, or would ever exist, in a universe following "real world"
physical laws. Of course, I wouldn't run Virus in a "hard sf" game either,
for pretty much the same reason.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:29:25 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Ziranii: Vilani Psionics Society

Fellow Travellers,

Herein is an idea inspired by the "Mindsuckers" referred to in the
anti-psionics article in T4's Psionic Institutes.  It is presented
merely as an idea, for background, patrons, or even a source of
adventures.  (It is part of the "dark conspiracy/X-files" background 
of my current First Contact campaign. :)  I hope that you enjoy, and 
I would appreciate any feedback you might have to give on this 
concept.

Thanks In Advance,
Jason

======================

The Ziranii: A Vilani Psionic Secret Society

The Ziranii, or "Caste of the Soul", is a secret society made up of 
members of various psionic and quasi-psionic races (including a few 
minor human races) that have officially been eradicated or converted 
by the Vilani during the Consolidation Wars of the Ziru Sirka.  
Psionics have always been persecuted by the Vilani culture, even 
before their expansion into space, as psionics have traditionally 
been associated with the "warrior gods" (Ancient warbots) that fought 
one another on Vland until 20,000 years ago.

While some Ziranii members speculate that a secret society similar
to the "Caste of the Soul" may have existed to unite and protect
those few Vilani psionicists that may have existed in Vilani's
pre-stellar history, no evidence has ever been brought forward to
support this theory.  In actuality, the Ziranii started as an 
underground movement during the Consolidation Wars of the First 
Imperium, when several psionic races (including a minor human race) 
sought to avoid death and persecution during the "Vilanification" of 
their cultures.  Massive near-genocidal attacks by the Vilani 
greatly reduced the numbers of these races, and the survivors made 
extreme efforts to integrate into Vilani society.  Originating within 
the coreward reaches of Diaspora sector, all but forgotten by 
history, the Ziranii movement slowly maneuvered to positions of power 
in the rimward sectors controlled by Sharurshid.

By the point of the Ziru Sirka's first contact with Terrans at 
Barnard's Star (2096AD), the Ziranii secret society had spread its 
membership of a few thousand over three sectors, occupying 
positions of importance in preparation for a daring move.  The 
Ziranii had begun a plan to move beyond the rimward borders of the 
First Imperium, and establish a safe haven many parsecs beyond the 
reach of the Vilani oppressors.  A staging area had been selected on 
the rimward border, and operations had begun under the guise of the 
research and development outpost of Ikugi (Solomani Rim 1926, known 
to the 3I as Barnard's Star.)  The plan took a major shift when, less 
than a decade into preparations, the Vilani were encountered by 
another major race, humans from the nearby Terra system (Solomani Rim 
1827.)

The meeting was held in secret in the year 2094AD (Terran
reckoning), with first contact made by a telepathic member of UNSC
Advanced Intelligence division, a Terran governmental agency secretly
conducting psionic research for "intelligence purposes." The United
Nations Security Council, having detected radio emissions from the
new colony, utilized the recently developed Waven Hyperspace Shunt
drive (jump drive) to engage in a clandestine mission of First
Contact.  The AdvInt agent, detecting the presence of a talented
Ziranii telepath, engaged in negotiations with the local Ziranii
Council leaders, and both sides left the table with the beginnings of
a new plan.  After conferring at the Provincial Council at Dingir,
the Ziranii determined to utilize the Terrans to cover their own
actions, developing an unsteady allegiance with the United Nations
Security Council Advanced Intelligence division.  Carefully
orchestrating the initial interactions between Terrans and the Ziru
Sirka, starting with an official First Contact in 2096AD, the
Ziranii played the two cultures against one another as they
continued to prepare for their colonization rimward of both the
Terrans and the Vilani.  The increased trade and diplomatic missions
proved a successful smoke screen for the movement of Ziranii
provisions and people to Ikugi. In exchange for technical
information, the Ziranii's AdvInt allies kept Terran intervention to
a minimum, although a few individual pockets of resistance grew
against the machinations of the Ziranii and AdvInt.

The Barnard Incident of 2110 (also referred to as the Canberra
Massacre) escalated a state of war between the Terrans and the Ziru
Sirka, throwing the Ziranii's carefully laid plans into disarray. An
all-out surprise assault by their AdvInt "allies" on the gathered
Ziranii members at Ikugi in 2117 reduced the numbers of the secret
society by almost two orders of magnitude, and the few remaining
members scattered to the stars.

Over the decades and centuries that followed, the Ziranii slowly grew 
in strength, and worked against the Terran invaders.  Members of 
AdvInt waged a secret war against their once-allies, the Ziranii, 
and both organizations strove to wipe the other out.  The success of 
the Terrans in forming the Rule of Man drove the Ziranii deep into 
hiding.  Most Ziranii Councils were eventually discovered and 
destroyed during this troublesome period, but a small membership did 
survive.  Using centuries old techniques of hiding amongst an 
anti-psionic society, the Ziranii blended into the background, 
and bided their time, content to control from behind the scenes.

Various Councils survived the Long Night, and reestablished contact
through their concentration on centers of political power.  Although
some dispute has arisen between a few of the Councils as to the
direction and leadership of the Ziranii, the general concensus
granted a majority of intergroup authority to the Capitol Council, as
the seat of greatest political power resided there for the Third
Imperium, and for the future goals of the Ziranii.

During the early years of the 3I, the Ziranii subtly supported and
promoted the presence of official Psionic Institutes, trying to
build a pro-psionic stance within Imperial society.  The actions of
other secret organizations, anti-psionic in nature, has hendered the
Ziranii progress significantly.  Great strides in changing public
opinion were made during the 700's, until public opinion went
radically anti-psionic with the Psionic Suppressions. Over the last
few centuries, the Ziranii have retreated into hiding once again, 
again driven nearly to destruction.

Time has healed the old wounds, the membership has grown once 
again, and the newer members are looking for new directions, new 
goals, new frontiers.  Perhaps the Ziranii Dream might be better 
pursued on the Imperial frontier.  Perhaps the Domain of Deneb, with 
its proximity to the Zhodani Consulate, might prove to be an area 
worthy of development.  Perhaps the Solomani Rim, once home to the 
traitorous AdvInt, might prove of benefit in the goals of the 
Ziranii.  Perhaps...but that is a story yet to be told.

===================

(Additional note:  The Psionic Suppressions could also have been
directed against the Ziranii, who might have secretly been working
with the Zhodani to bring about a pro-psionic shift in Imperial
society.  However, since the Ziranii tend to keep to the
conspiratorial shadows, nothing has ever been mentioned of them in
history texts, and they are all but unknown to the general public.) 
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #626
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 14 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 627



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Analog Aliens Take II
re: Computer Technology
Re: The P-word
Re: Modular Cutter
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)
Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...) 
Re: Analog Aliens
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics  of Drop Tanks)
Re: Grounding A Starship (aka Planetary Adventures) 
Re: DSR

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:38:26 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

At 03:36 PM 5/14/99 +0000, you wrote:
>At 12:17 AM 5/14/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>>What are they?
>>>>-Stephen
>>>>
>>>
>>>There's a LONG list.  Start back with the Nordon bomb sight and the inigma
>>>device and go up through barber-colmans and moores.  Toss in WW2 TDCs and
>>>balistic targeting computers and you have a start.  Do not forget the
>>>difference engine in the smithsonian though or the old mechanical cash
>>>registers.
>>
>>The Enigma was Electromechanical, FWIW.
>>
>
>The electrical was motors only IIRC.  They just drove the clock work.  The
>same was true with the Nordon.  The TDC was hand cranked and used electrical
>motor and electircal switches were use to pass the results to the torpedos
>but the calculations were done by clock work.  Again IIRC.

Don't know about the Nordon, but AFAIK the Enigma used electrical relays
and switches to do the actual computing.  It wasn't all clockwork.  



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:46:17 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

At 11:36 AM 5/14/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Frank G. Pitt wrote:
>> [Russell Bornschlegel wrote:]
>>
>> >I doubt there will be very many spinning mechanical devices
>> >involved in a TL 12+ computer, and the term "DOS" will be lost
>> >in the mists of history.
>> 
>> There are still disks in the TL12 computer on my desk., and underneath Win98
>> there's still a DOS session.
>
>Your PC can do the math for a multi-parsec hyperspace jump? Tell 
>the difference between a starship hijack attempt and a couple of 
>foolish passenger strolling uninvited to the bridge? Predict the 
>location of an evading 6-G target half a light-second away based 
>on its previous pattern of evasion? Simultaneously? With nary a 
>blue-screen-of-death?
>
>Besides, my comment about spinning mechanical devices was tautological
>for Classic Traveller, where holo crystal storage is canonical at
>TL12, IIRC. 
>
>> You're still working from an invalid premise. You have to realize that a
>> Traveller TL12 computer is not advanced, and is about same level of
>> advancement as the computer I'm writing this on.
>
>Well, we have another divergence here. I'm familiar with the 
>suggestion that the Traveller computers don't do enough for their 
>tonnage, and it's probably impossible to reconcile the fact that 
>computer cost and size doesn't vary with TL, but your assumption
>that a Pentium II is TL 12 seems bogus.
>
>Consider for a moment:
>
>- A single purchase of a ship's computer puts a terminal with 
>entertainment facilities in every stateroom.
>
>- Entertainment software is below the threshold of counting against
>the CPU capacity, regardless of the number of staterooms on the ship.
>
>- Cutting edge TL8 entertainment software pushes your desktop machine
>to its limits. 
>
>I might be willing to grant that your desktop box has most of the
>capabilities of a single stateroom workstation -- and as such is 
>well below the threshold of a single CPU point.

Quite possibly a Beowulf cluster will be able to do it today using either
P-II/III or PowerPC 7400 CPUs and running a version of UNIX or Linux.  If
not, get a dedicated Supercomputer from IBM, Cray, or Mitsubishi.  Not
knowing the computations necessary to make a jump, but going with the
supposition that the computations are nothing more than highly evolved
orbital problems and positional calculations, I think the computers today
will be able to handle it.  They might be slower than a TL-15 system, but
they can do it.  Remember that a 486DX/2 system from 1994 had more
processing power than the all the computers Mission Control used to put a
man in orbit, as well as put a man on the moon.  Factoring in Moore's Law,
processing power doubles every 18 months, if they can not perform as you
say today, then will soon.  Within 9 years, the average computer will be
roughly 64 times as capable as the ones in use today.

YMMV

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:53:43 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Ooh I'd forgotten all about them. Didn't the Grogs have this really fast
> whiplike tongue, too?
> 

Yes, you're right. Ah, my memory has been jogged more fully now.

> The Lumps aren't sessile, I'm visualizing something more like mobile
> blobs of something..probably vertebrates of some sort, given the size
> I'm imagining, which is .5 to 1 meter long and .25 to .5 meter wide and
> about .2 high, with a mouth at one end.
> 

Why make them mobile? If they have telekinesis, they don't need mobility to
survive. They can bring food to themselves, and remove waste the same way.
Evolution wouldn't have required them to have mobility, unless I'm missing
something.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:12:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
At 11:51 AM 5/14/99 -0400, you wrote:

>>I've seen some SF universes - some Heinlein, for example - where
>>computer "programmers" were more like modern-day psychologists.
>>The computer system was so complex that these "Cyberpsychs"
>>would do more teaching and reasoning with than programming. 
>>This is too far for Traveller, but I thought it was an interesting idea.
>>

>Oh, it is.  Read 'Instramentallity of Mankind' to see why I do not want to
>even begin to think about this happening.  When we reach the point the 
>we do not and can not understand our own technology it is only a matter 
>of time before we are in real trouble.  Posibly to the extent of mankind 
>doing the way of the Dodo.  

>If we were to reach that point in my life time I'd home school my children
>in how to farm with horse and buggy technology.  You can bet they would soon
>need it.  Ever lissen to the band Rush?  Try the 2112 album or the song "Red
>Barcheta" for another look at this form of unintintial technocracy and some
>good Traveller plots as well.  

Read Melissa Scot's latest novel _Night Sky Mine_ for a universe where
programs are "bred" instead of created.  As far as no longer understanding
our tech being a sign of the end of civilization, I sincerely doubt it. 

Folks will understand you need to do X to get Y result, X may be copying
two programs into the same file and letting them "fight" or "mate", and no
one may have seen a line of understandable code for a century or more, but
there's cause and effect, and so usability.  For most of human history
that's all we had.  Horse breeders bred better horse w/o knowing a whit
about genetics, blacksmiths refined metalworking technology and
industrialists created steel without having the slightest idea of crystal
structures or other facts of modern metallurgy or solid state physics. 

Knowing how something works is the basis of all human technology, that
will still be around.  Knowing *why* something works is very much of a
rarity.  While it is the hallmark of modern science and technology, it is
also darn unusual and clearly not necessary for progress to occur.  We
won't be one the same asymptotic progress curve w/o it, but neither will
our civilization collapse. 

If our technology surpasses our understanding we will either:

1) Get more intelligent to understand it again (Vingian Singularity)

or

2) Technological advance will slow down again and the rate of
technological progress will go back to the way it was prior to the last
150 years (i.e. pretty darn slow). 

Option 2 actually looks a lot like Traveller, hmm...


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com
    

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:22:33 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: The P-word

> > "Pirates,.... and may God have mercy on your soul!"
> > 
> > He asked about Pirates, ohmigawd it's starting again.....
> 
> PIRATES? Oh come on, you really don't think there could be pirates in the
> Third Imperium do you? I'll bet that- Hey! Who are you people?! Get out of
> my office! Let me go! What are you doing to my compu-
> 


Nahh, its been proven that Pirates aren't economically feasible in the
Traveller universe.

<smirk>
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:26:07 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Modular Cutter

Jussi_K._Kenkkil <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi> asks:

>> The CT/MT/TNE Modular Cutter had its best write-up in Journal #5 (1980).
Most 
>> of the modules don't actually have "deckplans" since they have very
little in 
>> the way of decks...
>> 
>>  A list:

<snip>

>>   -Pressurized Shelter (long-term LS for eight)
>
>What is the arrangement of the living spaces?
>
>How is the quarters module arranged? Are there horizontal floors? Or is it
>divided to 5 or 6 sections with the outer hull as floor?

 The module depicted is built to ground, and has one deck with
the same gravitic orientation as the rest of the cutter. The module is
a 15m long cylinder the same diameter as the cutter (6m)

>How are the modules connected? Are ther airlocksa at both ends? One end? In
>the ends and the middle? At which positions can they be connected?

 It has airlocks at each end and four double occupancy staterooms.
Internal power and storage make it self-sufficient, though not
mobile, for months at a time.

>
>I'm making an adventure that will have a research base constructed of
>modules, and also a ships that is specially designed for haulig enough
>modules for a portable base.
>

 Such a ship could carry several Cutters for the setup work and have a
cargo bay or revolver-bay loaded with the modules, including modules
specifically built for laboratory space and some meant as expandable
connectors between full-size modules. Larger pieces like a central
dome with module connection points around it might be amusing, too...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:33:46 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)

>Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:02:36 PST
>I doubt *anyone* is going to trust an automated setup to pilot
>something that big without human supervision.

Actually, these days we can get our probes to hit right on
without much problem.  However, my guess is that it would be
automated (with occaison remote checking) most of the way
in and, when it gets close the main world, take over active
remote control.

>> few hundred ice balls in their Kuiper Belts, and they've been
>> civilised (*and* high tech) for quite some time.  And I *KNOW*
>> there's planets like this in the Solomani Rim, I just don't happen to
>> have my copy anywhere handy at the moment.  So howcome they didn't
>> move a few iceteroids insystem and crash 'em into the planet to
>> provide water yet??
>
>The settlers may *want* the desert climate. New Arabia certainly will. :-)
>
>And *crashing* them into the planet has unfortunate side effects. Soft
>landing them gets expensive.

It depends on what you want.  If you just want hydrogen for fuel,
just have ships refuel in orbit.  There realy is no reason to
move it to the surface.

If you want to terraform, then you probably want to break them up
to dust and rain the water in.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:39:20 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...) 

Fri, 14 May 1999 02:46:12 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>> 10 klick/sec increasing as it falls in.  Though actually,
>> since you are going to leave the thruster on there, you might
>> as well leave them going.  Make it a 10000 ton chunk of
>> ice and let it keep going, it will handily arrive in less
>> than a year.

>More like 2 or 3.

>> What you are missing is that the crew doesn't go with it.  They
>> send it along unmanned.  The ship takes a week or two to fly
>> out to the belt and collects objects, puts little thruster
>> packs on them, and starts sending them in on predetermined
>> tragectories.  Year start up time is hardly an insurmountable
>> task for a business (or even that rare).

>I dunno bout that...

Heck, here in the Silicon Valley a company that has a product
in a year is on the fast track!
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:47:33 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

> My original idea for these guys started with an old sketch of a critter with
> a big eye. My thought was that they would communicate with continuously
> changing color patterns in the eye itself, with massive amounts of
> information being communicated at any time - a necessity if your world
> concepts are all matters of degree, you can't answer any questions
> with Yes or No. I don't know that communication would necessarily
> be slow, just (to humans) agonizingly complete.

Piers Anthony used this idea for his race of 'mantas' in the book,
"Omnivore".
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:41:54 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics  of Drop Tanks)

> >> few hundred ice balls in their Kuiper Belts, and they've been
> >> civilised (*and* high tech) for quite some time.  And I *KNOW*
> >> there's planets like this in the Solomani Rim, I just don't happen to
> >> have my copy anywhere handy at the moment.  So howcome they didn't
> >> move a few iceteroids insystem and crash 'em into the planet to
> >> provide water yet??
> >
> >The settlers may *want* the desert climate. New Arabia certainly will. :-)
> >
> >And *crashing* them into the planet has unfortunate side effects. Soft
> >landing them gets expensive.
> 
> It depends on what you want.  If you just want hydrogen for fuel,
> just have ships refuel in orbit.  There realy is no reason to
> move it to the surface.
> 
> If you want to terraform, then you probably want to break them up
> to dust and rain the water in.

Easiest way would be to 'weaken' the iceteroid greatly, so that it'll break up into itty bitty tiny pieces parts when it grazes the atmosphere.  Then, shift its orbit so it grazes the upper atmosphere of the planet.  Maybe even put some high explosives (*NOT* nukes!!) in the center of the iceteroid.  When it *does* re-enter, it breaks up and melts in the air, dumping the water vapor into the atmosphere.

AFAIK, I'm the first one to come up with this concept.  <grin>

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:44:30 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Grounding A Starship (aka Planetary Adventures) 

> ObTrav: Although hi-TL ships usually don't have to worry about
> damage like this, there *are* critters on various planets which
> can do incredible damage once onboard. One of the old JTAS's
> has a creature feature (I'm a poet and didn't know it :) on
> an eel/worm which digests various light metals, including
> shipboard circuitry.

Doyle's Eel, a silicate based critter usually whacked out if you stop at a 
*real* port, but can sometimes get into a ship if you land *outside* it (say, 
cause you're trying to sneak something past customs?).
 
> Such a critter is *great* for driving PCs crazy with intermittent
> hardware failures or keeping their ship grounded for a time
> through lifeform infection quarantine, fines/jail time for
> transporting dangerous lifeforms between planets, repair
> time/costs, etc.

Ayup.  Fun, fun, fun.
 
> And, of course, the horror of finding the husks of hatched
> eggs/molted skin onboard some weeks after the ship and crew are
> allowed to go their way is just fun, fun, fun.
> 
> 'sigh' I *so* glad I'm starting a campaign in 2 weeks.

Heheh.

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 22:40:23 +0200
From: "Jens Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: DSR

On Thu, 13 May 1999 18:41:17 -0700, Bruce Macintosh wrote:

>>I got the DSR from the Missouri archive, but this version didn't
>>include any information on detecting astronomical bodies.
>>Has this been developed, and if so, where could I find it?
>
>It has been developed - and I can't find the damn thing (lost in a deleting
>accident, together with many of my other notes.) If anyone has a copy,
>could they forward it to me as well as Thad?
>
>Bruce Macintosh
>(DSR author)
>
>
>

Changes from previous version:
	-added small gas giants
	-removed radar signature for gas giants (gas giants absorb radar)
	-added rules for minerology/"prospecting"

Executive summary: 
Detection ranges in an empty hex for a "typical"
sensor (PEMS-13, AEMS-11) are as follows:

Object                  Passive Range           Active Range 
200-m iceball           50,000 km               500,000 km
Small Gas Giant         100 AU                  -----
        (1 billion years old)
Small Gas Giant         3 AU                    -----   
        (5 billion years old)
Large Gas Giant         3000 AU                 -----
        (1 billion years old)
Large Gas Giant         300 AU                  -----
        (5 billion years old)

Small military sensors (PEMS-13.5) multiply ranges by x3; big military
or science sensors multiply range by x10. These imply that almost all
large gas giants will have been charted by the Imperium but that small
gas giants will often have escaped detection.




In more detail, here are signatures on the FFS2 scale for all these
objects:

Object                  Passive/Vis     Passive/IR      Active
Rocky asteroid          +0.5            +0.0            +0.5 
        (habitable zone)
Rocky asteroid          +1.0            +1.5            +0.5 
        (inner zone)
Rocky asteroid          -0.5            -2.0 *          +0.5 
        (outer zone)
Rocky asteroid          -2.5            -5.5 *          +0.5 
        (Oort cloud or empty hex)

C-type asteroid         +0.0            +0.0            +0.5
        (habitable zone)
C-type asteroid         +0.5            +1.5            +0.5
        (inner zone)
C-type asteroid         -1.0            -2.0 *          +0.5
        (outer zone)
C-type asteroid         -3.0            -5.5 *          +0.5
        (Oort cloud or empty hex)

* indicates that science-grade sensors get an additional +0.5 to 
detect these objects using passive/IR.

Rocky asteroids are greyish (albedo 0.2 - 0.3). 
C-type asteroids are dark asteroids (albedo 0.05) mostly consisting of 
carbon compounds.
Comet nucleii and Kuipter belt objects roll 1d6; on 1 use the rocky
asteroid values, on 2-4 use the C-type values, on 5-6 use c-type with an
additional -1 to visible signature. (Ice exposed to cosmic rays becomes
extremely dark.) 


These values assume a 1-m radius asteroid. For larger or smaller asteroids
use the following modifiers:

Asteroid Size modifiers:
Asteroid Radius         Passive/Vis     Passive/IR      Active
1 m                     -2.0            -2.0            -1.0
10 m                    -1.0            -1.0            -0.5
100 m                    0.0             0.0            +0.0
1 km                    +1.0            +1.0            +0.5    
10 km                   +2.0            +2.0            +1.0
100 km                  +3.0            +3.0            +1.5


For people who want to do prospecting, a detailed mineralogical scan 
requires a second roll at the original detection difficulty, +2 
difficulty levels for a non-science sensor, and 1 full 30-minute turn
in which the sensor looks only at the target.

(In more precise DSR terms, scanning for minerals 
reduces the signature by 2 points and requires a roll on the usual 
detection table, at +2 difficulty levels for a non-science sensor. 
Note that the reduction of 2 points is usually offset by the 
tracking-already-detected target modifier (+1.5) and the scanning-a-single-
arc modifier (+1.0))



Gas giants in empty hexes or Oort clouds use the following chart:

Object                  Passive/Vis     Passive/IR      Active
Small Gas Giant         +2.0            +3.5 *          **
        (0.05 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Small Gas Giant         +2.0            +2.0 *          **
        (0.05 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Large Gas Giant         +3.0            +5.0 *          **
        (1 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Large Gas Giant         +3.0            +4.0 *          **
        (1 jupiter mass, 5 billion years old, empty hex)
Very Large Gas Giant    +3.0            +6.0            **
        (5 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Very Large Gas Giant    +3.0            +5.0 *          **
        (5 jupiter mass, 5 billion years old, empty hex)
Brown Dwarf             +3.0            +8.0            **
        (40 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Brown Dwarf             +3.0            +7.5            **
        (40 jupiter mass, 5 billion years old, empty hex)

* indicates that science-grade sensors get an additional +0.5 to 
detect these objects using Passive/IR.

** gas giant planets and brown dwarfs have radar signature sufficiently
low that they have not yet been measured from the Earth, and I'm not sure
how to calculate them; in all practical circumstances the target would be
detected visually or in the infra-red first. Some gas giants may have
moons or rings (active signature +0.5 to +4.0) that will be detectable
instead. (Roll 11+ on 2d6 to have reatined a moon, +1 for large gas
giants and +2 for very large; roll 1d6/2 for the moon's active signature.) 

Small gas giant numbers are extrapolations due to the lack of evolutionary
tracks for objects below Saturn's mass.



Detection can be calculated using the Definitive Sensor Rules (available
on the web or via email.) In essence, one adds the sensor sensitivity
(from FFS2 or the conversion notes in the DSR) to the target signature
and subtracts the range to calculate the "signal":

Signal = Sensitivity + Signature - Range + modifiers

and then compares to the following chart:
SIGNAL  active detection        passive detection
        task                    task
<0      (target cannot be detected under any circumstances)
0       Impossible              Impossible
0.5     Average                 Staggering (TNE: Formidable)
1.0     (automatic detection)   Average
1.5                             Easy
2.0                             (automatic detection.)

Ranges are taken from the following chart:

Range:                                                          RANGE
km                      BL Hexes        T4 name T4.1 name       term
<=500                                           regional        8
<=1,600                                                         8.5
<=5,000                                         continental     9
<=16,000                0                                       9.5
<=50,000                1-2                     planetary       10
<=160,000               3-5             VS                      10.5
<=500,000               6-16            S       far orbit       11
<=1,600,000             17-50           M                       11.5
<=5,000,000             51-160          L                       12
<=16,000,000            161-500                                 12.5
<=50,000,000            501-1600                                13
<=160,000,000   1 AU                                            13.5
<=500,000,000   3 AU                            interplanetary  14
<=1,600,000,000 10 AU                                           14.5
<=5,000,000,000 30 AU                           outsystem       15
<=16,000,000,000  100 AU                                        15.5
<=50,000,000,000  300 AU                        oort            16
<=500,000,000,000 3000 AU                                       17
30000 AU                                                        18
100000 AU (1/2 parsec)                                          18.5
1 parsec                                                        19
3 parsec                                                        19.5
10 parsec                                                       20.0

So, for example, a typical scout (Sensitivity=13.0) scanning for a 
rocky asteroid (passive (vis) signature = 0.5) at a range of 1 AU would
have a signal of (13.0) + (0.5) - 13.5 = 0.0, for an 
Impossible task to detect the asteroid.

A labship with a science-grade PEMS-14 looking for old gas giants in an
empty hex would have a signal of 14.0 (sensor) + 0.5 (empty hex science bonus) 
+ 4.5 (signature with science bonus) - 19 (range) = 0.5, a Staggering
task.

Remember the following modifiers to sensor sensitivity (taken from
the most recent version of the DSR) based on sensor location:

Sensor Location         Passive/Vis     Passive/IR      Active
Inner zone              -0.5            -0.5             0.0
Habitable zone           0.0             0.0             0.0
Outer zone              +0.5            +0.0             0.0
Oort cloud/empty hex    +1.0            +0.0 (normal)    0.0
                                        +0.5 (sci-grade)

(The full DSR also includes modifiers for long scans (1 day) and for
scanning only a single arc, which if combined allow a +1.0 for taking
2 weeks to do a scan.)


For reference, the numbers I got looked something like this:

(extract from the "natural objects" section of the sensor rules0
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Detection ranges in an empty hex for a "typical"
sensor (PEMS-13, AEMS-11) are as follows:

Object                  Passive Range           Active Range 
200-m iceball           50,000 km               500,000 km
Small Gas Giant         100 AU                  -----
        (1 billion years old)
Small Gas Giant         3 AU                    -----   
        (5 billion years old)
Large Gas Giant         3000 AU                 -----
        (1 billion years old)
Large Gas Giant         300 AU                  -----
        (5 billion years old)

Small military sensors (PEMS-13.5) multiply ranges by x3; big military
or science sensors multiply range by x10. These imply that almost all
large gas giants will have been charted by the Imperium but that small
gas giants will often have escaped detection.

In more detail, natural object signatures:

Gas giants in empty hexes or Oort clouds use the following chart:

Object                  Passive/Vis     Passive/IR      Active
Small Gas Giant         +2.0            +3.5 *          **
        (0.05 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Small Gas Giant         +2.0            +2.0 *          **
        (0.05 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Large Gas Giant         +3.0            +5.0 *          **
        (1 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Large Gas Giant         +3.0            +4.0 *          **
        (1 jupiter mass, 5 billion years old, empty hex)
Very Large Gas Giant    +3.0            +6.0            **
        (5 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Very Large Gas Giant    +3.0            +5.0 *          **
        (5 jupiter mass, 5 billion years old, empty hex)
Brown Dwarf             +3.0            +8.0            **
        (40 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Brown Dwarf             +3.0            +7.5            **
        (40 jupiter mass, 5 billion years old, empty hex)

* indicates that science-grade sensors get an additional +0.5 to 
detect these objects using Passive/IR.

** gas giant planets and brown dwarfs have radar signature sufficiently
low that they have not yet been measured from the Earth, and I'm not sure
how to calculate them; in all practical circumstances the target would be
detected visually or in the infra-red first. Some gas giants may have
moons or rings (active signature +0.5 to +4.0) that will be detectable
instead. (Roll 11+ on 2d6 to have reatined a moon, +1 for large gas
giants and +2 for very large; roll 1d6/2 for the moon's active signature.) 
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
(I think Eris' numbers somewhat overrate skill - a mediocre operator with a 
PEMS-14 will still beat a genius with a PEMS-11, no matter what - but then,
he's a heretic.) 


Bruce

On 05/26/98 at 09:09 AM,  bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) said:

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>(I think Eris' numbers somewhat overrate skill - a mediocre operator with
>a  PEMS-14 will still beat a genius with a PEMS-11, no matter what

Yes, I'm *sure* they do. 

I'm tinkering this up strictly for roleplaying, so operator skill is going
to be an important factor.  For passives, I figure skill and sensor
sensitivity are about 2/3 of the equation with the other 1/3 being divided
among target size and various modifiers.  For actives, the sensor's
sensitivity is more important at short ranges and the operator's skill is
more important at longer ranges.

Something I have considered, but haven't worked the numbers out on, is
doubling the Sensor Sensitivities from FFS2 (I don't use .5's anyway), so a
13 goes to 26 and a 13.5 goes to 27.  This weights the target number toward
the sensors over the PC's skill, and that's a good thing, but it means I'd
have to rework ranges.  Try this...


Range_Factor (RF):                round(log(km^5),0)-2

Passive_Reflective_Target (PRT):  round(log(Area),0)+modifiers

Passive_Emittive_Target (PET):    round(log(kw),0)+modifiers

Active_Reflective_Target (ART):   round(log(Area),0)+modifiers (min 1) 

Some Standard Ranges (for those that don't want to work them out)

   Ranges                           Range_Factor
   ===============================================
   0-30Kkm              0-1 hex          20
   30Kkm-300Kkm         2-10 hex         25
   300Kkm-3Mkm          10-100 hex       30
   3Mkm-30Mkm          100-1000 hex      35
   30Mkm-300Mkm        .2-2 AU           40
   300Mkm-3,000Mkm      2-20 AU          45
   3,000Mkm-30,000Mkm   20-200 AU        50
   
Target is a 100dt Scout (area:  750, power:  150/60/6, black hull,
Stealth_1) in the inner zone of the system (+1) at 1.2Mkm (28), using
baffling on its radiators.  The scanning platform has a PEMS-26 and an
AEMS-24 using 25MW of power (round(log(25),0) = 1 added to all ART's), with
Skill-12 operators.  PRT=3; PET=5; ART=3+1

 Using                Passive    Passive Emitted    Active 
  one minute scans    Refect.  Full  Stand.  Quiet  Sensor 
 -----------------------------------------------------------------
 Sensor Sensitivity     +26     +26   +26     +26  +(24*4)/(28/10)
 Sen.Ops Skill          +12     +12   +12     +12      +12
 PRT/PET                + 3     + 5   + 5     + 4
 Inner zone             + 1                      
 Active Sweep           + 1     + 1   + 1     + 1         
 One-Arc Search                                        + 2
 Black/Chameleon Hull   - 1
 Stealth_1              - 1     - 1   - 1     - 1      - 1
 Baffling                       - 1   - 1     - 1
 Range                  -28     -28   -28     -28      -28
                       -----   ----- -----   -----    -----
 Target                 +13     +16   +16     +15      +19
 Odds of Detection      44%     76%   76%     66%      95%

These numbers assume a "IR-neutral" drive.  If the ship is maneuvering with
a reaction drive (or if T-plates put out high heat IYTU) add 2 to the
target numbers.  If the sensor platform goes active it raises its PET by 4
for everybody, and guarantees it will be detected by any ship that it
detects.

Is this better, or do I need to raise Sensitivity more?  And I'm not really
happy with the way emitted signature is working out.  I'd like the PET to
drop a little more for ships running quiet.  What I might do is just have a
standard -2 modifier for a ship running quiet..that would mean it was using
1% standard operating power. 

> - but then, he's a heretic.) 

You bet'cha! ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #627
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 14 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 628



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Analog Aliens
Re: The P-word
Re: The P-word
Re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Re: Roger MacBride Allen's work 
Re: Analog Aliens
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks
re: Analog Aliens
Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...)
The P-word
Re: Analog Aliens Take II
Re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Re: The P-word
Re: Analog Aliens Take II
Re: Analog Aliens Take II
The P-word
Re: Analog Aliens Take II 
adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:06:38
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

At 06:03 PM 5/14/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> wrote:
>>Uhmm... what's the P-word?
>
>Putting the little black lace hankerchief onto the wig.
>
>"Pirates,.... and may God have mercy on your soul!"
>
>He asked about Pirates, ohmigawd it's starting again.....

It can't be starting. 

<checks schedule>

We're still doing Virus, and next up is near-c asteroids.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:11:35
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The P-word

At 10:39 AM 5/14/99 -0700, you wrote:

>PIRATES? Oh come on, you really don't think there could be pirates in the
>Third Imperium do you? I'll bet that- Hey! Who are you people?! Get out of
>my office! Let me go! What are you doing to my compu-

My work here is done.  

Hi-ho, Iridium, awaayyyy.............
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:12:32
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The P-word

At 04:22 PM 5/14/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Nahh, its been proven that Pirates aren't economically feasible in the
>Traveller universe.
>
><smirk>

But the near-C rock angling for your head is.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:11:05 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: 3I Raising Military Forces

	How about Roman Forces?

	Contubernium:  8 man section
	Century:   unit of 80 men, (10 contubernia) commanded by a Centurion, 
assisted by an Optio (aide) a Tessarius (watch-commander) and a Signifer 
(standard bearer)
	Cohort:  unit of about 500 men (5-7 centuries) it is interesting that 
although the Cohort was an important maneuver unit on the battlefield, it did 
not have a separate command structure, orders went from legion HQ directly to 
centurions, the senior centurion of each cohort probably acted as tactical 
commander, but had no special command staff or rank-title.  The Signifer of 
the first century of the cohort probably carried the cohort standard.  The 
first cohort of the legion was made up of double-sized centuries (160 men).
	Vexillation:  since legions were often used to garrison key points 
they could not always be moved en masse.  Instead a "vexillation" was sent it 
was usually 2 cohorts or so (about 1000men) and the Legion's standard.  This 
size unit eventually evolved into the standrard size for a "legion" in the 
late empire
	Legion:  A unit of 10 cohorts (5000men)  had an overall commander the 
Legatus, and 6 staff officers, the Tribunes.  The centurion of the first 
century of the first cohort was called the Primus Pilus and was the senior 
"career man".  An ex- Primus Pilus could be appointed Prefect of the Camp and 
was in charge of the permanent camp facilities of the Legion.

	Centurions were men who came up through the ranks, and were very much 
the equivalent of NCO's or Warrant Officers, although they commanded units 
larger than modern NCO's command.  There were really only 7 men in a Legion 
who were the equivalent of commissioned officers:  the Legatus and the 
tribunes:

	Equivalents

	Roman					Modern
	Contubernium			Squad
							Platoon
	Century					Company
	Cohort					Battalion
	Legion					Regiment
	Legion (with auxillaries)	Brigade
							Division

	Optio					Sergeant (status),  Lt. 
(function)
	Centurion				Master Sergeant (status), 
Captain (function)
	Primus Pilus			Reg. Sergeant-Major (status),  Major 
(function)
	Tribune					Staff Captain 
	Legatus					Brigadier  /  Major General
	

	The Legion (nearly all infantry, but with a few horsemen and integral 
engineer unit) was very much the focal point of loyalty like the Regiment.   
To it were attached non-citizen auxillary troops like archers and cavalry 
which would make it more like 	
a Brigade.

		Finally, My Point:    It seems that the Regiment is about 
adeal size for individual loyalty.  It is about the same scale as the Legion 
and both units are the focus of "Unit Identity".  I suppose that some of that 
has to do with the scale of the unit and the ability for at  least a part of 
the unit to survive almost any disaster (save the worst ).   Or because units 
any larger require a diversity of training and function to dilute that 
identity.   Or maybe its as big as it gets before members are no longer able 
to have a reasonable chance at being acquainted with the faces and names of a 
significant portion of  the members.

	Point 2:  Is the proportion of commisioned officers in the 3I as high 
as modern armies?   Pournelle has alot of grumblings about keeping the 
proportion of comminsioned officers low in an efficient military, and the 
Romans certainly seemed to agree.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:15:28 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Roger MacBride Allen's work 

> Keven wrote:
> 
> > Ever read Roger MacBride Allen's 'The Farside Cannon'?  Scary
> > stuff... 
> 
> No, not yet.  I'm half-way through "The Shattered Sphere", and really 
> am enjoying it and the first book of the series, "The Ring Of 
> Charon."  Although definitely not compatible with the OTU, I can see 
> a lot of color and ideas that can be skimmed from these two books.

You *could* handwave a lot of it off by claiming somebody went through the 
hassles of developing gravitic technology to higher than Imperium levels by a 
fluke that led them down the path *away* from Jump Drive.  There were several 
TL10, 11ish cultures in the OTU that never got Jump Drive.  Just as, in an 
*old* campaign of mine, I had a TL19 culture that went from TL9ish to TL17 
within 5 years from somebody stumbling on a way to create antimatter cheaply.  
<grin>  They didn't figure out Jump Drive til somebody came in and said 
'hiya', but had a couple research stations around a couple other stars a 
parsec away, connected by modified Bussard ramjets; the ramjets collected 
interstellar hydrogen to react with the onboard containerised antimatter for 
maximum efficiency.  Nifty piece of chrome...

BTW, that TL19 culture never *did* trust Jump Drive...
 
> What else has he written?  What would you recommend?

Dunno off the top of my head.  I copped 'Farside Cannon' in a grocery store a few years back cause it looked interesting.  When 'Ring of Charon' hit the bookstore, I jumped on it, then ground my teeth waiting for 'The Shattered Sphere'.

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:22:24 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

In a message dated 5/14/99 2:05:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
kurt@blazenet.net writes:

<< 
 Shiver me timbers, open the airlocks and run out the guns!  And get this
 damn parrot off my shoulder!
  >>

	Arrr, belay that you scurvy dog!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:23:44 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > He also did the classic GM disaster:
> >
> >         "You enter the room.
> >         "There is a dragon hiding behind the curtain.
> >         "I shouldn't have read out that last bit."
> 
> The propert way to handle that is to let the players *wonder* about the
> dragon behind the curtain. Have it turn out to be a "harmless baby".
> *Then* when the players are clustered around it, have "mama" come home.
> :-)
> 
> 

Been there...
Done that...
Have the scars to prove it!

Ancient red Dragons REALLY resent it when PCs attempt to sell their
children!

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:21:31 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Analog Aliens

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>"Pirates,.... and may God have mercy on your soul!"
>
>He asked about Pirates, ohmigawd it's starting again.....

It can't be starting. 

<checks schedule>

We're still doing Virus, and next up is near-c asteroids.
>>>>>>>>>
LOL!!

Scary enough, the "Kuiper Belters" thread is at the "how fast can
you get a rock going" phase....

If you're in charge of scheduling, could you tell me when the discussion
on Hot Bi Aslani Babes is coming up? I missed it the last time
around. <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:28:47 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Kuiper belters (was: Cheap ways of getting fuel...)

Fri, 14 May 1999 11:26:53 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>> Remember, at a lower accel you've got a *lot* more time for the delta-V
>>> to accumulate.

>> And you'll *NEED* it.  BTW, what did your figures say the terminal velocity
>> was at 600 days?

>Around 520 km/s.


It should be noted that, at a thrust of 1 G, you can negate this
in a matter of hours.  However, if you have an active low
level accelleration you can negate this as you go along.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:17:04 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: The P-word

>Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> wrote:
>>Uhmm... what's the P-word?
>
>Putting the little black lace hankerchief onto the wig.
>
>"Pirates,.... and may God have mercy on your soul!"
>
>He asked about Pirates, ohmigawd it's starting again.....
>
>Dom

IMHO, it's at least a bit more fun than the V-Word, Famile Spufolam, and
30k essays on why trade doesn't exist in the 3I... ;-)

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:34:54 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II

Erwin Fritz wrote:
> 
> 
> Why make them mobile? If they have telekinesis, they don't need mobility to
> survive. They can bring food to themselves, and remove waste the same way.
> Evolution wouldn't have required them to have mobility, unless I'm missing
> something.

Oh, but it would...they'll want to move to reach food beyone the range
of their telekinetic abilities, to move away from accumulated waste
material, to move on when the local food supply has been consumed, when
the food learns to move away itself.

It would be unlikely that their telekinetic abilities would have much
range in general, in fact I guess it would be on the order of most
manipulative organs on other life forms.

There might be unusual individuals with a great 'reach', but that would
require a greater energy input. I think these guys are grazers, so
energy use is an important limiter....

Hmmm, I'm going to have to think about these things a bit.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:41:00 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: 3I Raising Military Forces

In a message dated 5/14/99 2:18:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, AveNelso@aol.com 
writes:

<< Centurions were men who came up through the ranks, and were very much 
 the equivalent of NCO's or Warrant Officers, although they commanded units 
 larger than modern NCO's command.  There were really only 7 men in a Legion 
 who were the equivalent of commissioned officers:  the Legatus and the 
 tribunes: >>

I would argue that the centurions were really a combination of NCO and junior 
grade officer. I would also argue that the Legatus and tribunes were field 
grade officers. BTW; how come you didn't list the rank of decurion? Also; how 
did the rank structure of the Manipular legion differ from the cohort (Marian 
reform?) legion?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:42:49 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: 3I Raising Military Forces

In a message dated 5/14/99 2:18:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, AveNelso@aol.com 
writes:

<< Pournelle has alot of grumblings about keeping the 
 proportion of comminsioned officers low in an efficient military, and the 
 Romans certainly seemed to agree. >>

so did Heinlen...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:24:09 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: The P-word

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_03C1_01BE9E1D.D05B7F10
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="koi8-r"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Grrreetings,

You are so correct, gentlesir.  The very concept of piracy in a great =
and genteel state such as the Imperium is simply ludicrous.  With the =
powerful Imperial Navy guarding the worlds of the Imperium, and the =
financial difficulty that anyone deranged enough to consider piracy =
would face, one must consider the numerous tales of gutted hulks merely =
to be modern urban legends.  After all, have you ever met someone who =
actually was on a 'pirated' ship?=20

Which brings me to the meat of my letter.  May we count on your support =
in our efforts to reduce the number of ships running amok in the =
Spinward, Deneb and Corridor Sectors, armed with starship grade lasers =
and military surplus missile launchers?  We are currently soliciting =
donations to promote Imperial legislation aimed at reining in the =
uncontrolled distribution of starship grade weaponry, and attempting to =
sponsor a 'sandcaster for laser' exchange at many prominent starports.

Have you ever considered how truly alarming it is that virtually every =
single starship you might encounter possesses weaponry enough to destroy =
and unarmed starship?  To put it in perspective, imagine yourself as a =
security guard in a bank, and every customer is armed.  How do you =
determine who might be a villain, and who is merely a customer?  By =
removing the weapons from merchant starships, it will allow your Navy to =
identify potential pirates before they have to opportunity to strike.

I hope you will join our crusade, and bring peace to this sector of =
space.

Gvengr
Economic Attache

*translation provided by the Kforuzeng Diplomatic Mission

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Jory Earl=20
  To: traveller@mpgn.com=20
  Sent: Friday, May 14, 1999 1:22 PM
  Subject: Re: The P-word


  > > "Pirates,.... and may God have mercy on your soul!"
  > >=20
  > > He asked about Pirates, ohmigawd it's starting again.....
  >=20
  > PIRATES? Oh come on, you really don't think there could be pirates =
in the
  > Third Imperium do you? I'll bet that- Hey! Who are you people?! Get =
out of
  > my office! Let me go! What are you doing to my compu-
  >=20


  Nahh, its been proven that Pirates aren't economically feasible in the
  Traveller universe.

  <smirk>
  --=20
  ___________________________________________________________
   J-Man
   ICQ# 2843475
   Email : j-man@iname.com
   Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
  ___________________________________________________________


- ------=_NextPart_000_03C1_01BE9E1D.D05B7F10
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="koi8-r"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dkoi8-r" http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Grrreetings,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>You are so correct, gentlesir.&nbsp; =
The very=20
concept of piracy in a great and genteel state such as the Imperium is =
simply=20
ludicrous.&nbsp; With the powerful Imperial Navy guarding the worlds of =
the=20
Imperium, and the financial difficulty that anyone deranged enough to =
consider=20
piracy would face, one must consider the numerous tales of gutted hulks =
merely=20
to be modern urban legends.&nbsp; After all, have you ever met someone =
who=20
actually was on a 'pirated' ship?&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Which brings me to the meat of my=20
letter.&nbsp;&nbsp;May we count on your support in our efforts to reduce =
the=20
number of ships running amok in the Spinward, Deneb and&nbsp;Corridor =
Sectors,=20
armed with&nbsp;starship grade lasers and military surplus missile=20
launchers?&nbsp; We are currently soliciting donations to promote =
Imperial=20
legislation aimed at reining in the uncontrolled distribution of =
starship grade=20
weaponry, and attempting to sponsor a 'sandcaster for laser' =
exchange&nbsp;at=20
many prominent starports.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Have you ever considered how truly =
alarming it is=20
that virtually every single starship you might encounter possesses =
weaponry=20
enough to destroy and unarmed starship?&nbsp; To put it in perspective, =
imagine=20
yourself as a security guard in a bank, and every customer is =
armed.&nbsp; How=20
do you determine who might be a villain, and who is merely a =
customer?&nbsp; By=20
removing the weapons from merchant starships, it will allow your Navy to =

identify potential pirates before they have to opportunity to=20
strike.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I hope you will join our crusade, and =
bring peace=20
to this sector of space.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gvengr</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Economic Attach&eacute;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>*translation provided by the =
</FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>Kforuzeng Diplomatic Mission</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:j-man@iname.com" title=3Dj-man@iname.com>Jory =
Earl</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:traveller@mpgn.com"=20
  title=3Dtraveller@mpgn.com>traveller@mpgn.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 14, 1999 1:22 =
PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: The P-word</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>&gt; &gt; "Pirates,.... and may God have mercy on your=20
  soul!"<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; He asked about Pirates, ohmigawd =
it's=20
  starting again.....<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; PIRATES? Oh come on, you really =
don't=20
  think there could be pirates in the<BR>&gt; Third Imperium do you? =
I'll bet=20
  that- Hey! Who are you people?! Get out of<BR>&gt; my office! Let me =
go! What=20
  are you doing to my compu-<BR>&gt; <BR><BR><BR>Nahh, its been proven =
that=20
  Pirates aren't economically feasible in the<BR>Traveller=20
  universe.<BR><BR>&lt;smirk&gt;<BR>--=20
  =
<BR>___________________________________________________________<BR>&nbsp;=
J-Man<BR>&nbsp;ICQ#=20
  2843475<BR>&nbsp;Email : <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:j-man@iname.com">j-man@iname.com</A><BR>&nbsp;Home Page =
: <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/">http://www.geoci=
ties.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/</A><BR>__________________________________=
_________________________<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_03C1_01BE9E1D.D05B7F10--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:42:20 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> > Why make them mobile? If they have telekinesis, they don't need mobility to
> > survive. They can bring food to themselves, and remove waste the same way.
> > Evolution wouldn't have required them to have mobility, unless I'm missing
> > something.
> 

There's nothing like a couple of beers on a Friday afternoon to liberate the
thought processes.

> Oh, but it would...they'll want to move to reach food beyone the range
> of their telekinetic abilities, to move away from accumulated waste
> material, to move on when the local food supply has been consumed, when
> the food learns to move away itself.
> 

Food for thought: Picture a create that has an ability to attract its prey, much
like a Venus flytrap. Once the prey is in range, the telekinetic ability
prevents the prey from escaping. That means that mobility is not required.

Waste products could be handled by a symiotic relationship with another creature
(which DOES have mobility) that feeds upon the waste.

I think such a mini-ecosystem would be a fine thing for adventurers to discover.


- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:06:25 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II

Erwin Fritz wrote:
> 
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> >
> > > Why make them mobile? If they have telekinesis, they don't need mobility to
> > > survive. They can bring food to themselves, and remove waste the same way.
> > > Evolution wouldn't have required them to have mobility, unless I'm missing
> > > something.
> >
> 
> There's nothing like a couple of beers on a Friday afternoon to liberate the
> thought processes.

/homer mode

Oooooohh beeeeeer

/homer mode

 
> > Oh, but it would...they'll want to move to reach food beyone the range
> > of their telekinetic abilities, to move away from accumulated waste
> > material, to move on when the local food supply has been consumed, when
> > the food learns to move away itself.
> >
> 
> Food for thought: Picture a create that has an ability to attract its prey, much
> like a Venus flytrap. Once the prey is in range, the telekinetic ability
> prevents the prey from escaping. That means that mobility is not required.
> 
> Waste products could be handled by a symiotic relationship with another creature
> (which DOES have mobility) that feeds upon the waste.
> 
> I think such a mini-ecosystem would be a fine thing for adventurers to discover.

Scout biologist I to scout biologist II: "It eats WHAT!!? eeeeew!"

Seriously, the development of intelligence, and later technology, is of
little clear evolutionary value, as I see it, to stationary lifeforms,
mostly because the energy requirements are a fair bit higher than most
sessile organisms can generate.

Secondly, I'm making the assumption here that their telekinesis has
similar energy requirements to using feet to move around and hands to
grasp, etc, except it is expressed as varying energy fields, not
discrete grasping or motile structures.

Therfore they have quite a bit higher energy requirements than do
sessile organisms. This was probably due to evolutionary pressures at
some point, possibly the same ones that lead to the development of
telekinetic abilities in the first place.

While such behavior could have occured in their evolutionary path, they
would bear the same relationship to the Lumps that, say, sea cucumbers
do to us.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 10:12:32 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: The P-word

*sigh* First we had the Piracy debate. Now, it appears, we are having a
debate about the piracy debate.

OK. In short, what those of us in the anti-piracy faction proved was not
that piracy is economically unfeasable in the Imperium.

What we proved was that piracy *around mainworlds* is unfeasable.

Piracy will still occour, but it will be 'chicken stealing' in the
outsystem, or in other areas known to be unsafe (assume you have a naval
base on Terra. Some A2 Far Trader gone pirate jumps in to near a mining
colony on Titan, shoots up a couple of fighters and grabs an ore shuttle.
Even if you have the whole thing on tape from your super-duper Sens 15.5
MilSpec passive sensor, you cant actually get any heavy units there in
time. Now if our friend in the A2 jumps in and tries to grab a freighter at
or about the 100 diameter limit, different story).

Merchants going into unsafe areas will of course be well-armed, and demand
higher freight rates or charge higher prices for their goods.

In short, piracy will occour by consent.

Now, this is actually *good* for GMs. If players want to get those nice
chunky risk premiums (say, an extra Cr 500 per dton of freight), then they
are going to have to go outside the nice warm fuzzy zone of safety provided
by the mainworld's defenses.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 19:12:48 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II 

> > Food for thought: Picture a create that has an ability to attract its prey, much
> > like a Venus flytrap. Once the prey is in range, the telekinetic ability
> > prevents the prey from escaping. That means that mobility is not required.
> > 
> > Waste products could be handled by a symiotic relationship with another creature
> > (which DOES have mobility) that feeds upon the waste.
> > 
> > I think such a mini-ecosystem would be a fine thing for adventurers to discover.
> 
> Scout biologist I to scout biologist II: "It eats WHAT!!? eeeeew!"

Ramdom triggered thought...

Character "EAT &^%$!!!"

NPC critter:  "Why, *thank you*, don't mind if I do!"
 
I rilly gotta get out more...

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:10:52 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)

> From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
> Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

> No she hasn't been. Like most first rates she was kept in reserve during
> peacetime. And since Trafalger she has effectively been in reserve (laid
> up in a graving dock). A better example of a ship in commission might
> be USS Consitution (built 1797) which is still in sea-going commission.
> 
> ObTrav: Given the slow pace of technological change in the 3I and the
> relalively "vessel friendly" nature of space; just how long does an
> Imperial warship stay in service.

I had an idea for an adventure along these lines a while ago (while
living in Boston, where the Constitution is moored, about 10 years ago;
it was also a great field trip in fourth grade).  An historical warship
is at the high port as a museum, run by the Imperial Navy.  Maybe it's
still commissioned, and maybe not.  It should be at some backwater
world.  The museum staff, expecting war, quietly make the ship
spaceworthy and bring at least her main weapons online.  War breaks out,
and the ship is a big surprise to someone -- the Zhodani scouts who
appear to check out the system, the Ine Givar ground forces who thought
they'd take over the government in a walk, etc.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #628
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 15 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 629



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Grounding A Starship (aka Planetary Adventures)
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)
Re: Kuiper Belters
Re: Searching for Craig Barnett
Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation) 
Re: The "P" word debate.
The P-word
Re: Grounding A Starship (aka Planetary Adventures)
Re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Re: The "P" word debate.--Small Craft, free pass
RE: Analog Aliens Take II
RE: The P-word
Re: Calling All Starmaps
Gurps Starships - Less than 500Mcr
Re: one minor comment on Virus
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Garbage eating aliens
Re: Modular Cutter
RE:  Stupid Traveller Tricks
A correction on "decurion"
Re: Analog Aliens Take II
Virus debate

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:46:16 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Grounding A Starship (aka Planetary Adventures)

> From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
 
> ObTrav: Although hi-TL ships usually don't have to worry about
> damage like this, there *are* critters on various planets which
> can do incredible damage once onboard. One of the old JTAS's
> has a creature feature (I'm a poet and didn't know it :) on
> an eel/worm which digests various light metals, including
> shipboard circuitry.

It's called Doyle's Eel, and it has caused much anxiety for many PCs.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 21:07:02 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)

At 01:33 PM 5/14/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:02:36 PST
>>I doubt *anyone* is going to trust an automated setup to pilot
>>something that big without human supervision.
>
>Actually, these days we can get our probes to hit right on
>without much problem.  However, my guess is that it would be

	Sure we can. But until DS-1, NONE of them could do diddly without
human supervision and commanding. And we've also failed the last four
DoD launches (plus a commercial launch or two) ...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 21:28:25 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Kuiper Belters

>No, I'm not putting more thusters on it.  If you put more
>thusters on it (to keep it at 0.04 G) and you will get in
>sooner.

>> you can  how long does it take to put one on?

>So it takes a whole day?

At least. Considering that you have to be careful where and how
you place your thrusters, since these snowballs are somewhat less
cohesive than your average rock, no less complex a job than
repairing an earth-orbiting satellite. If you don't distribute
the force properly, you create internal stresses that tear the
object apart. Your iceteroid and thruster arrive scattered in multiple
smaller pieces hopefully somewhere along the way.

>> I'd like to know how you propose to power them continuously
>> for the better part of a year.

>gee they are strapped to big ball of fuel...
>(thought this is mostly a CT question since in GT interplanetary
>fuel needs are trivial).

This thruster has its own self-contained fusion reactor?  Which
operates on unrefined solid fuel? A high-tech device indeed.  As
far as fuel needs being "trivial", IMTU I break perpetual motion
machines: they aren't allowed.

>> You need some kind of guidance unit if you
>>are going to have any control over your snowball's direction
>>once you fire the thrusters. How many are you going to carry?

>Well, we can do it today with small probes. When you jump
>up 7 TLs in technology, this will be darn cheap.

This guidance system has to be programmed with the trajectory,
which is hard to do if it doesn't know where it is or which way
it's going to begin with. This should take more than a few minutes.
These thrusters are looking more and more sophisticated.

>At one 1 G you can cover 10% of the orbit in a matter of days. 
>Though they will be a lot more common than that.

You can cover 10% of the orbit in a matter of days, or you can
pin thrusters on iceteroids, but I refuse to believe you can do
both at the same time.

>>  You ARE talking a mission of a couple of months at least, so
>>you need extended life support.

>Which isn't a problem, scouts have exended mission all the time.

As I said before, weeks at a time when it's cold, dark, and
lonely, with stressful work in a hostile environment is as good a
recipe for insanity as any.

I'm not saying the project is impossible, but I seriously doubt
that it's easy or cheap compared to GG or ocean refueling. It
does have the potential for some adventure seeds.

 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 10:18:03 +0800
From: "Colin aka Arkham aka the God King" <astroboy@iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: Searching for Craig Barnett

You might want to try posting on the aus.games.roleplay newsgroup.

********************************************************
Colin Clark
World Emperor in Waiting
http://www.iinet.net.au/~astroboy
********************************************************
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 15, 1999 1:45 AM
Subject: Searching for Craig Barnett


> I am trying to contact Craig Barnett, who posted two articles on 9 Feb 99:
> "New GURPS Traveller Modules" and "More GT Modules". I would like to use
> some of the modules presented in GT: Starships, but I need his explicit
> permission. I believe he may live in Australia, if any of the Aussies can
> help.
>
> Thanks, all.
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 22:24:11 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation) 

> > From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
> > Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation
> 
> > No she hasn't been. Like most first rates she was kept in reserve during
> > peacetime. And since Trafalger she has effectively been in reserve (laid
> > up in a graving dock). A better example of a ship in commission might
> > be USS Consitution (built 1797) which is still in sea-going commission.
> > 
> > ObTrav: Given the slow pace of technological change in the 3I and the
> > relalively "vessel friendly" nature of space; just how long does an
> > Imperial warship stay in service.
> 
> I had an idea for an adventure along these lines a while ago (while
> living in Boston, where the Constitution is moored, about 10 years ago;
> it was also a great field trip in fourth grade).  An historical warship
> is at the high port as a museum, run by the Imperial Navy.  Maybe it's
> still commissioned, and maybe not.  It should be at some backwater
> world.  The museum staff, expecting war, quietly make the ship
> spaceworthy and bring at least her main weapons online.  War breaks out,
> and the ship is a big surprise to someone -- the Zhodani scouts who
> appear to check out the system, the Ine Givar ground forces who thought
> they'd take over the government in a walk, etc.  

There was something like this in one of the 'Far Passage's, #5, IIRC.  A 
multi-kiloton experimental tender named 'Star Rider' aquitted itself well in 
the Solomani Rim War (998-1002, IIRC), then was mothballed.  A few years 
previous to the openning of the adventure, it was sold to the Shenk Historical 
Foundation (or something like it), but was hijacked on the way while refueling 
in a gas giant.  The 'jackers had a couple plants in the Star Rider's crew, 
plus brought over a pile of boarders in the 'Proloth', a Far Trader that 
rendezvoused with Star Rider after the planted agents pulled the fuses from 
the reactor's power busses, temporarily disabling it and causing the skeletal 
command crew to send out a distress signal.  The boarders faked a big 
explosion on the far side of the gas giant, threw down some junk, then pulled 
the ships out to stash them while repairs were made and the coast was clear.  
Eventually, Star Rider was the core of a band of pirates, hauling captured 
SDBs around to attack shipping.

Cute adventure.  <grin>

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 20:18:14 -0700
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Re: The "P" word debate.

I can remeber having this talk quite some time ago with Roger Myhre we decided upon a number of things.

1)  Piracy within the "Core" regions of the imperium is next to impossible.

2)  Piracy on the outter areas is somewhat easier but still quite difficult.

3)  Priacy on the rim (extreme outter area) is much easier still but the targets are likely to be much better armed so it's really a trade off.  Sure you can shoot him up but what kind of shape are you likely to be in after the fight?

Profitable Piracy required a number of things.

1)  For knowledge of the cargo, there's nothing worse than taking a load of brussel sprouts.  ICK!!!  This requres an insider at the cargo transfer point.

2)  The ability to quickly and effectively disable the vessel so it can be delt with before it can alert the athorities.

The first one is somewhat easier, there's always some one who will talk, the second is far more difficult but we came up with a number of ideas.

1)  EMP - Hiding an EMP device in the ships cargo would effectively disable the vessel while leaving it largely intact.  This is a little difficult as the easiest way to generate an EMP in Traveller is either through detonating a nuke, not
going to leave much cargo for you to grab, or by hitting it with a PAW.  We decided the easiest way to accoplish this was to ship a small (read person sized) PAW with a one shot battery with the vessel.  The PAW would be in a customs sealed
crate so no one would look inside it.

2)  Trojan Horse - Get a member of your crew aboard the target vessel and somehow disable the vessel from within.  This was considered far riskier but by introducing a two part toxin into both the food and the environmental systems the
ships crew would be either dead or unconcious in a matter of hours.

3)  Beware of Techs Bearing Upgrades - While undergoing routine mantiance the ships computer is infectect with an astrogation virus, no not the VIRUS a virus, the point of the virus is to not today, not tommorow but say three jumps later or
so to induce a misjump, well alter the jumps exit point, which causes the vessel to emerge in deep space at the site of a trap.  With no Jump fuel and no escape the crew will be forced to surrender.

There were a couple of other ideas we came up with but those were the highlights of the brainstorming session.

Derek Stanley
http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Home.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:17:04 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: The P-word

>Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> wrote:
>>Uhmm... what's the P-word?
>
>Putting the little black lace hankerchief onto the wig.
>
>"Pirates,.... and may God have mercy on your soul!"
>
>He asked about Pirates, ohmigawd it's starting again.....
>
>Dom

IMHO, it's at least a bit more fun than the V-Word, Famile Spufolam, and
30k essays on why trade doesn't exist in the 3I... ;-)

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 23:44:14 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Grounding A Starship (aka Planetary Adventures)

In a message dated 99-05-14 20:05:56 EDT, you write:

<< > ObTrav: Although hi-TL ships usually don't have to worry about
 > damage like this, there *are* critters on various planets which
 > can do incredible damage once onboard. One of the old JTAS's
 > has a creature feature (I'm a poet and didn't know it :) on
 > an eel/worm which digests various light metals, including
 > shipboard circuitry. >>

What about the blit from Outpost II?  It was a terraforming microb that got 
out of hand, it destroys plasic and organic stuff (humans, bio comps, ect).
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 00:19:20 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: 3I Raising Military Forces

In a message dated 5/14/99 5:46:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:

<< 
 I would argue that the centurions were really a combination of NCO and 
junior 
 grade officer. I would also argue that the Legatus and tribunes were field 
 grade officers. BTW; how come you didn't list the rank of decurion? Also; 
how 
 did the rank structure of the Manipular legion differ from the cohort 
(Marian 
 reform?) legion?
  >>

	I think I clarified that a bit lower down.   A centurion in status 
was really an NCO but his function is similar to a junior officer.  By 
status, I mean that his rank was solely dependent upon the will of the 
"commissioned officers" who were the tribunes and legates who had their 
position from the Assembly of Centuries (Republic) or directly from the 
Emperor (Imperial).    The tribune was strictly a "staff" position in that he 
was in charge of administrative functions delegated by the legate,  there was 
no unit of soldiers that was commanded by a tribune, except on an ad hoc 
basis as delegated by the legate.  The 6 tribunes acted as "unit XO" for the 
whole legion.
	I omited decurion, because it was not a rank used in the Imperial 
age, there was no specific "sergeant" for a contubernium.  Decurion does 
indeed belong to the manipular age and perhpas into Caesar's time.  Decurions 
were replaced by the Optio, tessararius and various ranks of men designated 
"immunis" meaning they were except from hard labor beacuse of special skill.  
This change tok place when the army became all long-service professionals 
under Augustus.
	I would agree that a tribune is more or less field-grade (=major) but 
a legate is a personal appointment of an emperor responsible only to him or a 
provincial governor who might command up to 5-6 legions.   Since there were 
only ever at most 30 legions in the Roman Imperial Army, and since with 
auxillaries the legate had between 5,000-10,000 men of various types of 
troops, I think it is safe to call him a General Officer.  
	In the pre-imperial, pre Marian legion, there was no such thing as a 
legate.  Each legion did not have its own single commander, instead all 
legions in a particular army were commanded by either a consul, praetor, 
proconsul or propraetor, all of who had been granted the right of "Imperium" 
or command by the Assembly of Centuries.   There were also several tribunes 
elected for each legion by the Assembly, but their function was similar to 
the Imperial Tribune.   The military tribunes in all but the very earliest 
age (before 300 BC) were seen as a "training post" for future commanders.  
	The centurions basically ran the day-today operations of the 
Manipular legion the senior centurion in each maniple getting his orders from 
the magistrate-commander by way of the tribunes.  
	Legates, as we understand them were invented by Pompey and 
universalized by Augustus.  The idea being someone who was selected or 
delegated as a substitute for a commander who was legally in charge but in 
absentia.  Pompey used legates to govern Spain of which he was legal 
governor, while he stayed in Rome to watch domestic politics.   Augustus 
decided to appoint a single legate to each province and legion over which he 
was legal commander (i.e., all the legions apart from 1-2 in proconsular 
provinces). (Other commanders such as Caesar had used ad hoc deputies called 
legates, but they didn't have the saem legal standing).
	The idea of 1 commander/rank for each level of organization or unit 
of maneuver was not a universal practice in Roman armies.  It may seem 
strange that a Centurion of the 5th century of the 1st Cohort, who commanded 
only his century, would outrank the centurion of the first century of the 
second cohort, who had theoretical command of a whole cohort.  That's how it 
worked, centurions started as centurion of the 5th century of the 10th cohort 
and worked their way up as openings developed one step at a time, until 
becoming Primus Pilus (first centurion of first cohort).  The number of men 
commanded at any one time had no basis on rank/status.  

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 00:30:33 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: The "P" word debate.--Small Craft, free pass

	In Mileau 0, of course, piracy would be quite rampant, with a 
multitude of pocket empires for the pirates to be supplied in, refitted, and 
to sell their loot. (although I agree with th eposters about IY 1100).
	In the Long Night/New Dawn/Early Empire I was thinkling about what 
would be the easiest, most tempting and most lucrative items for pirates.  My 
answer was:  Small Craft.   Small craft are very expensive, reasonably 
compact and of great interest to purchasers trying to return to space or gain 
a miltary edge on abalkanized planet.  So I came up with this scheme:

One surprising custom that arose was called "Small Craft, Free Pass."   Small 
craft such as Ship's boats and Shuttles were incredibly valuable commodities 
that could be easily transported and sold almost anywhere for an excellent 
price.  They were also very easy to destroy in space combat or just damage so 
much that they are unusable.   As a result, many pirates issued a radio 
command called "Small craft, free pass" to the crews of small craft they 
encountered.   The deal was: if the crew surrendered, the pirates would 
release them unharmed at the next "neutral" or safe port of call.  This offer 
was not always honored by the pirates, of course, but was respected more 
times than not, especially if the pirates were looking to establish a 
reputation in the area.  The rationale for this was that the more crews that 
show up safe, the more small craft would surrender without a fight.  
Generally, military small craft crews were less likely to get a pass, and if 
they did they were likely to face court martial for cowardice if the craft 
was armed. 


		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 21:56:20 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Analog Aliens Take II

> There's nothing like a couple of beers on a Friday afternoon to 
> liberate the
> thought processes.



HERE HERE!!!!  <said as he lifts another>


Cheers & Beers,
Jesse
:)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 21:56:19 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: The P-word

Awww, come on.  FS is FUN!  :)
Jesse



> IMHO, it's at least a bit more fun than the V-Word, Famile Spufolam, and
> 30k essays on why trade doesn't exist in the 3I... ;-)
> 
> William F. Hostman
> Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis 
http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 02:26:46 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Calling All Starmaps

In a message dated 99-05-14 06:44:07 EDT, you write:

<< Start from 3D startmapping page at
 http://www.clark.net/pub/nyrath/starmap.html
 
 Or ADC archives at
 http://adc.gsfc.nasa.gov/adc/adc_holdings1.html >>

Thank you!
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 07:54:36 +0100
From: dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com
Subject: Gurps Starships - Less than 500Mcr

Hi

  Has anyone designed a Yacht or Safari Ship for a very rich
player character.

  Something along the lines of 6G and Jump 6 ship, with a 
number of bays that could hold smaller ships, like the Far
Trader or a Scout ship.

Many Thanks

 

Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 03:36:39 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

In a message dated 99-05-13 08:29:22 EDT, you write:

<< There were cyber zombies in the adventure in vampire fleets.  I do not
 recall how they came about exactly but they were there. >>

Basicaly they work for the virus now?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 03:38:57 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

In a message dated 99-05-13 08:29:32 EDT, you write:

<< 
 There's a LONG list.  Start back with the Nordon bomb sight and the inigma
 device and go up through barber-colmans and moores.  Toss in WW2 TDCs and
 balistic targeting computers and you have a start.  Do not forget the
 difference engine in the smithsonian though or the old mechanical cash
 registers.
 
 Charles L. >>

Did anyone see the show "In Search of History" or something like that on the 
Discovery Channel?  It had a piece on it about tech that was devloped a long 
time ago that we are just recovering.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 04:27:52 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Garbage eating aliens

>Random triggered thought...
>
>Character "EAT &^%$!!!"
>
>NPC critter:  "Why, *thank you*, don't mind if I do!"
 >
>I rilly gotta get out more...

 Like to see "Ants"? The campfire scene in Insectopia comes to mind...

 Another alien that this discussion brings to mind is a recurring fellow
from the pages of Analog SF. Food isn't "edible" until it's what we
consider rotten:
  "I left a head of lettuce in the fridge for two months, just for you."
 "Aww, you shouldn't have."

GC

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 09:50:47 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Modular Cutter

>I'm making an adventure that will have a research base constructed of
>modules, and also a ship that is specially designed for hauling enough
>modules for a portable base.

You may also want to check out the MegaTraveller Equipment Sheet for "Advanced
Base, Pressurized" by Rob Prior (source anyone? - I have it on the HIWG CD).

These would be a LOT cheaper than using cutter modules and you could transport a
lot more in the same volume (52KCr each, collapse to 72 kL, holds 4 to 8
people).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 11:57:08 +0100
From: "Andrew Brandford" <abrandford@caesar32.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: RE:  Stupid Traveller Tricks

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Whilst engaged in a firefight on board a ship in orbit around a planet, =
my player's character decided to escape by jumping out of the airlock =
using an atmospheric re-entry kit.  Unfortunately he forgot that the =
world was a vacuum world and so there was no atmosphere.

Andy

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 09:18:12 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: A correction on "decurion"

	I was asked why I had ommited the rank of decurion form my Roman 
table of organization.   I knew that it wasn't part of the Imperial army rank 
system, but the word seemed nonetheless familiar,  I assumed it must have 
been an early rank from the Manipular legion days.   Well, I did some 
checking and found out that "decurion" was never a rank used by the Roman 
infantry.  A decurion was strictly reserved for a commander of 10 horsemen in 
the cavalry (which was usually an auxillary, non-citizen branch).    
"Decurion" also refers to a municiple senator in the provinces.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 07:44:45 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> > Waste products could be handled by a symiotic relationship with another creature
> > (which DOES have mobility) that feeds upon the waste.
> >
> > I think such a mini-ecosystem would be a fine thing for adventurers to discover.
> 
> Scout biologist I to scout biologist II: "It eats WHAT!!? eeeeew!"
> 

That's what flies do. Considering that we humans consume the waste
products of photosynthesis, we're kind of like flies in that way. But
I'm not taking that line of reasoning any further.

> Seriously, the development of intelligence, and later technology, is of
> little clear evolutionary value, as I see it, to stationary lifeforms,
> mostly because the energy requirements are a fair bit higher than most
> sessile organisms can generate.
> 

I agree with your conclusion, although I'd argue that the reason
intelligence is not of clear evolutionary value is not because of the
energy requirements (which are still undetermined) but because they
simply don't need a high I.Q. to survive.

The Blob's brain would be structured very differently that our brain.
Most of its internal workings would be geared toward the projection of
psionics. That, in itself, might be the stem of an adventure:

The adventurers are hired to capture, quietly, one of these creatures
(who live on a Red-zoned world) for a mysterious person (who is really
an agent of either the Psionics Institute or the Imperial Army).
Naturally, the Blobs are able to recognize when they are being attacked,
and can defend themselves using their powers.

While we're on THAT topic, what preys on a Blob? The obvious answer, an
animal with a built-in psionic shield, seems too predictable.

> Secondly, I'm making the assumption here that their telekinesis has
> similar energy requirements to using feet to move around and hands to
> grasp, etc, except it is expressed as varying energy fields, not
> discrete grasping or motile structures.
> 

I don't think that's true. From what I recall of the Psionics rules in
CT/MT, Psionic Strength points can be focussed much better than
attribute Strength points. Consider that a character uses his strength
almost constantly, to move himself around, to lift things, etc. The Blob
only uses its Psionic Strength for catching prey and for defense, and
only has to do that when its hungry or under attack. The rest of the
time it rests.

> 
> While such behavior could have occured in their evolutionary path, they
> would bear the same relationship to the Lumps that, say, sea cucumbers
> do to us.

Agreed.

You know, this thread is causing me work. I'm running Traveller tonight,
and I think I might present the group with the adventure I outlined
above, instead of the stuff I had been preparing for.


- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 07:19:47 -0700
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Virus debate

I've been listening in over the past week or so on the "Great Virus
Debate" waiting for it to devolve into the "Great Virus Flame War"
something which generally seems to happen on about week number three.

You all make good points on what I agree is definitely a very arguable
and controversial point.  Many people don't like the Virus, some people
do, I admit I like the Virus I just try not to think to hard about it's
MO because if I did I'd have to work through all the other logic /
reality problems in the game as well like Jump Drive, Contra Grav,
Artificial Gravity, Reactionless Thrusters.  Well you get the point.

With Virus the point is, it exists in the literature there for we have
to accept it the hard part for many of us is figuring out the "WHY" and
"HOW," that's what I think we should be focusing on here not the "why it
can't" and "how impossible it is."

What do we know about the computer's of the Traveller Universe?

Realistically not a whole hell of a lot, we're seperated by nearly 5000
years I'm sure a lot has happened between now and then inspite of the
Long Night.  But here's what we do know.

1)  They're still using silicon.

2)  They're likely considerably faster, however the tables presented in
FF&S 1 and 2 really don't bear this out.  They're larger, heavier, more
expensive and only give you a maintenance modifier that's in the
neighborhood of three times more effective.

Man Intell really fell down on the job didn't they?  "Introducing the PM
Chip from Intell, sure it's the size of a Buick but think of how much
faster it is..."  (M is the Roman numeral for 1000 just in case).  Maybe
Imperial ships use high compression vaccum tubes...

3)  They likely can do a pretty good job a faking their way through AI
but their conversation patterns are likely somewhat limited.

4)  While they may adhere to the binary code it is possible that
something else could have been developed in the meantime to replace this
basic operating level.

5)  They're likely about as closely related to our modern computers as
our modern computers are to Eniac and Univac.

6)  They're also likely self programming, that is you tell them what you
want and they create a program based on what you've said.

What do we know about Virus.

1) It's a silicon based life form.

2) It is capable of imprinting it's pattern on other pieces of silicon
from a distance.

3) It has been engineered as a weapon and as such is familiar with all
Imperial methods of virus (hacker created) detection.

4) All Imperial ships and any non-Imperial ship which enters the
Imperium already have a Virus on board (Deyo Transponder) which is
plugged into all the ships vital functions.

5) The larger the computer architecture the smarter the Virus is.

Does everyone agree with these 11 basic assumptions?

Now if you were a scientist working at research station Omicron how
would you make it work?

Don't say it can't because remember, at one time you couldn't sail
around the world because it was flat and you'd fall off, and you
couldn't break the speed of sound because it was unbreakable and you
couldn't get a rocket into orbit because it was impossible.

I feel like Yoda here, instead of thinking about why it can't figure out
how it can.

Some General in the States watched Predator went back to his people and
told them he wanted a cloaking device like that for his soldiers,
instead of telling the General he was out of his friggin' mind because
it was just a movie they started working on some ideas.

Work on some ideas people.

Derek Stanley
http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Home.html

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #629
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 15 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 630



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Base Codes
Computer tonage
Re: Garbage eating aliens
Re: Analog Aliens
Trade to low-tech systems
Re: Modular Cutter
Re: Trade to low-tech systems
Re: Fleet Ops
Re: FW: Jupiter's Supersonic Winds
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation) 
Re: Computer Technology
Re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Re: one minor comment on Virus
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation) 
Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation) 
Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation) 
Re: Analog Aliens
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Re: Grounding A Starship (aka Planetary Adventures)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 15:30:15 +0100
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Base Codes

I would be obliged if someone could confirm the meaning of the following
Base Codes:-

C, E, F, G, H, J, P, Q, R, T, U, W, X

I require the text description for new features I am adding to World Builder
Deluxe.

Many thanks

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 10:54:01 -0400
From: "Swordy" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Computer tonage

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
> Man Intell really fell down on the job didn't they?  "Introducing the PM
> Chip from Intell, sure it's the size of a Buick but think of how much
> faster it is..."  (M is the Roman numeral for 1000 just in case).  Maybe
> Imperial ships use high compression vaccum tubes...

Having spent many years working in a nuke plant I feel that I have seen the
computers of the 3I in action.  On the desk sit three little terminals: one
attached to a mainframe/mini computer, one to a PC network and one to the
outside world.  Behind this and unseen are five complete sets of information
gathering, processing, routing and storage system.  The mini is gathering
info from three sensors for each plant system that is being monitored
(required redundancy).  There are also two controller for each operated
output device.  All of these cables must be shielded, separated and must
travel to the devices by different paths through the plant.  The networked
PC uses NONE of the same cabling routes or hardware.  It is for
communication, logs, storage of compiled data, trending, etc.  There are
servers, routers, etc all over the plant, some attached to security systems,
or seismic monitors or weather monitors, time and sea water temperature
monitors, etc.  The third, also separate, system is for communication with
the outside world.  Plant status and regulatory info, output wattage,
incoming wattage, environmental information.  Several plants in the area are
part of this network.  By now you get my point.  The mass allocations from
CT have always seemed very reasonable to me.  The software capabilities,
however... :-)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SwordWorlder
ICQ 31012781

http://www.downport.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 08:27:00
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Garbage eating aliens

At 04:27 AM 5/15/99 EDT, you wrote:

> Another alien that this discussion brings to mind is a recurring fellow
>from the pages of Analog SF. Food isn't "edible" until it's what we
>consider rotten:
>  "I left a head of lettuce in the fridge for two months, just for you."
> "Aww, you shouldn't have."

You run into that here on Earth.  We had a Japanese friend visit, and she
almost got sick watching me eat a cheeseburger.  She couldn't comprehend my
enjoyment of milk so rotten that it has soldified.

Of course, I always wonder about the first guy to try beer.  "Hey guys!
This storage jar of grain leaked, and it's now filled with a thick, syrupy
foaming water.. let's drink it!"
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric flightless
 winged squirrel, coming through.."
                -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 09:32:30 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
...
>"Pirates,.... and may God have mercy on your soul!"
>
>He asked about Pirates, ohmigawd it's starting again.....

  You know, pirates could probably use drop tanks to deply from their
hidden tribe bases to their interdiction stations, and thus have full
internal tankage to return to base.

  No doubt the tanks could be refurbished by the same facilities that
handle annual maintenance, combat repairs, and new builds.

  :)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 12:37:26 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Trade to low-tech systems

The typical issue with trading with low-tech systems
is what money do they have to give in return for your goods.
Low-tech, by definition, mean's poor when it comes to societies,
and the large majority of interstellar lines bypass the majority of
these unrewarding systems.

Of course, what the interstellar lines bypass, the free trader
pick's up.

**********

Free trader market's on low-tech worlds

There will alway's be the local elite, but it's unlikely that they
can produce enough demand to fill a ship's hold in any given week,
and pay enough in hard currency (Imperial Credits, precious metals)
to provide a profit.  Some may be able to: I don't know if a
Starport E would have turned a profit in the Roman Empire, Ming China, or in Bagdad under the A'bbasid Caliphate, but I
suspect that they could have.

There may well be high-tech expatriates, living on the low-tech
world.  A typical selection includes Imperial servants (civil service,
military service, nobility), local ventures backed by high-tech
concerns, and interstellar traders.  These would make a good
market for free traders goods, and they pay in Imperial Credit's,
too!

Low-tech worlds near high-tech systems may well have economic migrants from high-tech worlds, who able to keep a much
higher living standard on a low-tech world than they would
have been able to at home.  (Cheaper land, lower cost of living,
able to hire servants, etc).  These migrants are typically retirees:
rarely do poor people migrate from a rich world to a poor world.
On the other hand, the retirees came here to live cheap:
it's unlikely that they have much to spend of free trader goods.

The masses on a low-tech world are unlikely to afford any of the
usual trade goods that free trader's bring along.  The creative
trader may yet be able to get some kind of profit from them: for
example, shipping in several tons of plastic jugs to a TL 4-5 world,
communication wire (superconducting?) to a TL 8-9 world
(it's already obsolete on it's original world, but high-grade to the
buyer's), pet animals to a world without any animal life, etc.

Basically, you are looking for stuff that is dirt cheap (or better,
free excluding transport costs) on the original world, and selling
them at a low yet profitable price on the low-tech world.  The
great issue with this is transportation cost: can the cost of
transport be kept low enough to make this worthwhile?


***********

Currency and barter

In small, low-tech worlds, there may not be enough trade to provide sufficent Imperial Credit's to allow the trader to
get paid in that currency.The trader may accept local currency, but low-tech currency is usually worth little or nothing
outside of the planet in question.
And,of course, the local currency may be non-convertable or diffictly to convert:  I believe that Chinese currency can't
be taken out of the country, for example.

The trader have to keep it on planet, and somehow put the money to work for him, purchasing real estate or in some other
safe local investment.  (That, of course, was the intent of the world's government)

In a Vilani-dominant economy, there may well be many safe but low/no growth areas in the local economy, so the free
trader will be sure that his money will still be there when he retires 30 years from now, but not a penny more.  In a
Solomani economy, there is
a greater potential to make your money grow, as well as a major risk that your money will just vanish, either stolen or
caught in an economic crash (stock market, fall of the government, real estate collapse, etc.).

Another possibility is barter.  This is difficult in a technological
society, but not impossible: major sections of the Russian
economy is currently running on barter.  This is a major test of the
free trader's skill, as he needs to have an eye on what his
stuff is worth compared to the goods the other party has to offer,
without a currency unit that can equally measure both items.
The other guy typically knows the local market much better than the
trader, but the trader knows the off-planet market's better than
the low-tech local knows.

Goods, of course, need not include only physical things.  Information
is a favourate good, but you need a keen mind to know how much
that information is worth.  The locals may also trade labour:
perhaps a group of local scientist's have put their services to
market ( to research a new drug, design an new plane, or build a
new weapon ).  The impoverished youth may be more than willing
to sign up as fodder for a mercenary group, anything to get
off-planet.  Outside of the Imperium, there may also be
slave labour available, or psionic individuals who will sell their
services for a fee.


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer

The lease v. buy was a decision of the IBM marketing and
sales board.  At the start of the product cycle, IBM preferred
to lease the machines. After a few years and just before a
new system came out, IBM would offer wonderful purchase
options with 'incentives'.   The result was that the customer
paid for the machine in the lease payments and paid for it
again, by buying it, just before it became obsolete.

 - from Cory Hamasaki, comp.software.year-2000

Reply to: aplummer@idirect.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 13:01:26 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Modular Cutter

In a message dated 99-05-15 04:52:25 EDT, you write:

<< You may also want to check out the MegaTraveller Equipment Sheet for 
"Advanced
 Base, Pressurized" by Rob Prior (source anyone? - I have it on the HIWG CD).
 
 These would be a LOT cheaper than using cutter modules and you could 
transport a
 lot more in the same volume (52KCr each, collapse to 72 kL, holds 4 to 8
 people). >>

HIWG?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 12:00:33 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: Trade to low-tech systems

One thing that I found interesting about Peter F. Hamilton's latest series
of books, was how trade worked between low tech and high tech worlds.

The best example was a planet that was low tech by choice, and the
government limited what tech could be used imported.
Now, they exported a highly valued alcoholic beverage to the rest of the
galaxy.  One enterprising free trader found a world with an abundance of
lumber, which had a high density, made excellent building material, etc...
He put two and two together to come up with 1) I trade this really useless
low tech wood to the planet that can only use low tech building materials
2) in return, they pay me with the famed liquor that the galaxy craves.

Things like that might work for low tech, high tech trade.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 13:19:07 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

In a message dated 99-05-13 09:58:25 EDT, you write:

<< If every system has a mainworld, two or three gas giants, a research
 colony and an asteroid mining station to defend, we'll see a bigger
 chunk of the budget spent on defense forces, definitely agree with
 you there. That would make the available attack forces smaller,
 but they may still be effective as they can attack parts of the enemy
 defense forces in a system instead of the whole fleet.
 
 Walt Smith >>

I think that a larger amount of forces will be held back so that the enemy 
can't do the same to you.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 13:22:02 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: FW: Jupiter's Supersonic Winds

In a message dated 99-05-13 10:18:55 EDT, you write:

<< I've received a Galileo-related update from NASA
 which explains for all time why there will be
 *NO* fuel skimming around the poles of gas giants.
 Keep in mind while you're reading the following that
 300 miles an hour winds are strong enough to
 destroy even hardened buildings. >>

Couldn't you just move at the same speed as the winds?  And someplace I think 
I saw a ship that was listed as a hyper sonic dome, it should be able to 
handle it.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 13:27:59 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-13 10:48:49 EDT, you write:

<< I'm imagining a group of these analog-minded sophonts building 
 tinkertoy-like (orrery-like?) computers at TL 1. 
 
 (Cut to Walt scribbling away notes for a new Contact! article...) >>

And the some PC thinking that is a peace of art and touching in, that could 
be bad, very bad, for the PCs.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 13:32:28 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-13 11:57:33 EDT, you write:

<< And don't even start with her jump message torpedos... <WEG> >>

jump torps(I know that you warned me, but...)?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 13:33:36 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation) 

In a message dated 5/14/99 7:32:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jamstar@earthlink.net writes:

<< There was something like this in one of the 'Far Passage's, #5, IIRC.  A 
 multi-kiloton experimental tender named 'Star Rider' aquitted itself well in 
 the Solomani Rim War (998-1002, IIRC), then was mothballed.  >>

Do you have her statistics; preferably in HG format?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 13:34:54 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-13 12:11:34 EDT, you write:

<< It been done, I had my PC find an Ancients site(after a fun miss jump, and
 leaving them stuck in-system with no fuel on a dry world and no GG
 in-system) fill with clock work TL 20+ items.
 The look on thier faces when the peddle power ships boat was found will
 never be forgoten.
 
 All I can say is that drinking and RPGing don't mix. >>

What was 'fun' abour misss jumping?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 13:37:55 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: 3I Raising Military Forces

Wow; you know you legionary history. You cleared up a lot of questions I 
had...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 13:39:47 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

In a message dated 99-05-13 12:46:20 EDT, you write:

<< Actually there was adiscussion _somewhere_ maybe in Challenge about what
 would happen to people jacke into a computer that Virus took over. It
 would not be pretty.
 
 The 'borgs in Vampire Fleets were created on Promise from prisoners
 mated to robot control brains in the hospital one of the Promise
 Vampires had taken over. >>

Nice guys.  How would you get them back?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 13:51:37 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-13 12:58:43 EDT, you write:

<< TNE seemed to say that the lower-tech the computer, the easier it was
 to repair. Perhaps TL7 troubleshooting techniques work to defeat
 virus on a wide span of tech levels - until the paradigm changes enough
 that the TL7 computer theorist is a caveman trying to run a nuclear
 power plant.

 
 Just a thought:
 
 Did you ever notice that, in Traveller, the same skill covers operation, 
 programming, theory, and repair of computers? Why would that be?
 What change would have had to occur in how computers work to
 make a programmer have to know how to rebuild a computer, just
 to do his job? Or is repairing or rebuilding a TL15 computer never more 
 complicated than popping prebuilt modules together?
 
 I realize that Traveller's Computer skill was written to abstract a 
 technical skill, and was written with a knowledge of 1970's computer
 science. Still, this provides a parameter of how Computers work in
 the Traveller setting. What explanation can we come up with for
 why a Computer skill has to be so wide-ranging?
 
 Walt Smith
  >>
Good idea, using what is in the rules to augment what is canon.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 13:58:34 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-13 14:06:11 EDT, you write:

<< "Relative" consistency. Consider what I'm comparing it to: Star Frontiers,
 Star Wars RPG, Star Trek... >>

Star Trek, big consistency problems.  Traveller doesn't have the tech  (Time 
Travel, Transporters, ect) that you can mess up.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 14:01:36 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-13 14:27:39 EDT, you write:

<< If only is was the next morning.
 My groups games will start on a Friday (all with a good "buzz" going by
 10ish) and play through till sunrise or later Sunday(still with a good
 "buzz" going) Then it's nap time till X-Files and back to bed. >>

You must realy like RPGing.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 14:05:28 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-13 14:40:23 EDT, you write:

<< I didn't know that you were comparing it to those three things in 
particular
 ;)
 
 Seriously though, I'm a big fan of a *lack* of consistency myself. Then
 again, MTU contains biological, dynamically-reconfiguring computers that
 taste like trail mix or a fortune cookie when someone dries them out...

xxxx
Why?
xxxx
 
 (Okay, I borrowed that from Bruce Sterling, but it adds great color to a
 campaign... "Damn, we're out of rations and we're stuck here on this planet
 until the impies come to rescue us... Let's cook the comp!")

xxxx
What if the computer is smart enuff to reconize what there trying to do...
xxxx
 
 Then again, I've broken nearly every canon law (intentionally or
 unintentionally) when running games, so maybe MTU isn't a good example. >>

What canon laws?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 14:09:00 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-13 15:04:30 EDT, you write:

<< I've been thinking about these critters for a bit, trying to figure out 
what
 their technology would be like. They may be a bit too alien, though - 
 just trying to understand their concept of scientific method drives me nuts.
 
 Hey, look at me, I'm live-action roleplaying an IISS Sophontologist!! :) >>

Isn't that the point of ISS missions:
To boldy go...
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 14:09:28 -0400
From: "Swordy" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation) 

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
> << There was something like this in one of the 'Far Passage's, #5, IIRC.
A
>  multi-kiloton experimental tender named 'Star Rider' aquitted itself well
in
>  the Solomani Rim War (998-1002, IIRC), then was mothballed.  >>
>
> Do you have her statistics; preferably in HG format?

The Star Rider was an experimental Transport.  In High Passage 5 is the
recounting of how the ex-INS ship was used in by pirates to retrieve
non-jump-capable ships, then jump out system.  The Navy had listed the ship
as destroyed in 1102.  The spinal mount was not operational at that time.
The TCS info for the pirate band is:

Star Rider (Star Rider Class Experimental Transport)
   ZT - N4336H3 - 096600 - 909G9 - MCr 26,490.016   40 ktons
   batteries bearing     4          4 4 1 2       Crew = 270
   batteries                 5          5 5 1 3       TL = 14
Passangers = 300    Low = 0       Marines = 200      Cargo = 744      Fuel =
14400
EP = 2400     Agility = 1     Emergency Agility = 3
          Meson Gun      (Inop)
          (Pilot-2, Ship Tactics-3, Fleet Tactics-3)

   14 x System Defense Boats
          See Above
          (14 x Pilot-2)

I guess this means that this transport could carry all of those SDBs?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SwordWorlder
ICQ 31012781

http://www.downport.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 14:21:25 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation) 

> In a message dated 5/14/99 7:32:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> jamstar@earthlink.net writes:
> 
> << There was something like this in one of the 'Far Passage's, #5, IIRC.  A 
>  multi-kiloton experimental tender named 'Star Rider' aquitted itself well in 
>  the Solomani Rim War (998-1002, IIRC), then was mothballed.  >>
> 
> Do you have her statistics; preferably in HG format?

Certainly.  It was in my milk crate.  <grin>:


Star Rider Class Experimental Transport
ZT-N4336H3-096600-909G9-0 MCr 26,490.016 40 Ktons
BatsBearing 4     4 412                  Crew 270
Batteries   5     5 513                  TL14
Passengers=300. Low=0. Marines=200. Cargo=744. Fuel=1440. EP=2400. Agil=1
Emergency Agility=3.
(Meson Gun Inoperative)

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 14:27:40 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation) 

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
> > << There was something like this in one of the 'Far Passage's, #5, IIRC.
> A
> >  multi-kiloton experimental tender named 'Star Rider' aquitted itself well
> in
> >  the Solomani Rim War (998-1002, IIRC), then was mothballed.  >>
> >
> > Do you have her statistics; preferably in HG format?
> 
> The Star Rider was an experimental Transport.  In High Passage 5 is the
> recounting of how the ex-INS ship was used in by pirates to retrieve
> non-jump-capable ships, then jump out system.  The Navy had listed the ship
> as destroyed in 1102.  The spinal mount was not operational at that time.
> The TCS info for the pirate band is:
> 
> Star Rider (Star Rider Class Experimental Transport)
>    ZT - N4336H3 - 096600 - 909G9 - MCr 26,490.016   40 ktons
>    batteries bearing     4          4 4 1 2       Crew = 270
>    batteries                 5          5 5 1 3       TL = 14
> Passangers = 300    Low = 0       Marines = 200      Cargo = 744      Fuel =
> 14400
> EP = 2400     Agility = 1     Emergency Agility = 3
>           Meson Gun      (Inop)
>           (Pilot-2, Ship Tactics-3, Fleet Tactics-3)
> 
>    14 x System Defense Boats
>           See Above
>           (14 x Pilot-2)
> 
> I guess this means that this transport could carry all of those SDBs?

Those SDB's were 400 ton jobbies:

SB-41069E2-900000-40003-0 MCr 777.54  400 tons
Batteries Bearing 2   2               Crew 10
Batteries         2   2               TL 12
Pass=0. Low=0. Cargo=27. Fuel=36. EP=36. Agility=6.

The 14 SDBs total 5600 tons, for a combined volume of 45,600 tons for the ship.

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 14:36:12 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

At 09:32 AM 5/15/99 -0700, you wrote:
>  You know, pirates could probably use drop tanks to deply from their
>hidden tribe bases to their interdiction stations, and thus have full
>internal tankage to return to base.
>
>  No doubt the tanks could be refurbished by the same facilities that
>handle annual maintenance, combat repairs, and new builds.

To prevent retaliation from Imperial forces, they can fire automated jump
torps loaded with Virus eggs (or whatever they are called) against nearby
Imperial bases.  

They can also use near-c rocks to hold world's hostage.  

Furthermore, they are actually employed by Strephon's clone.

Did I miss anything?

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 11:42:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

In mail you write:

> At 03:36 PM 5/14/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>At 12:17 AM 5/14/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>>Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>>>What are they?
>>>>>-Stephen
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>There's a LONG list.  Start back with the Nordon bomb sight and the inigma
>>>>device and go up through barber-colmans and moores.  Toss in WW2 TDCs and
>>>>balistic targeting computers and you have a start.  Do not forget the
>>>>difference engine in the smithsonian though or the old mechanical cash
>>>>registers.
>>>
>>>The Enigma was Electromechanical, FWIW.
>>>
>>
>>The electrical was motors only IIRC.  They just drove the clock work.  The
>>same was true with the Nordon.  The TDC was hand cranked and used electrical
>>motor and electircal switches were use to pass the results to the torpedos
>>but the calculations were done by clock work.  Again IIRC.
>
> Don't know about the Nordon, but AFAIK the Enigma used electrical relays
> and switches to do the actual computing.  It wasn't all clockwork.  

The enigma was digitial. It had discrete states (rotor positions). 

The analog computers used for the big guns on battleships were
essentially a bunch cams riding on a carefully shaped surface (a
complex curve). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 11:45:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Grounding A Starship (aka Planetary Adventures)

In mail you write:

>> From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
>  
>> ObTrav: Although hi-TL ships usually don't have to worry about
>> damage like this, there *are* critters on various planets which
>> can do incredible damage once onboard. One of the old JTAS's
>> has a creature feature (I'm a poet and didn't know it :) on
>> an eel/worm which digests various light metals, including
>> shipboard circuitry.
>
> It's called Doyle's Eel, and it has caused much anxiety for many PCs.

There are worse things to discover. For example, read the old Asimov
short story "Green Patches" (aka "Misbegotten Missionary", a titled
Asimov loathed). 

Now *that* is a red zone world!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #630
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 15 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 631



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Analog Aliens Take II
Slavery within Traveller
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
G:T Far Trader - thoughts on Business Owner
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #630
Re: Trade to lo-tech systems
Re: Analog Aliens
Re: Computer Technology
Re: The P-word
Re: Garbage eating aliens
Opinions about Language.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 11:25:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II

In mail you write:

>> Food for thought: Picture a create that has an ability to attract
>> its prey, much like a Venus flytrap. Once the prey is in range, the
>> telekinetic ability prevents the prey from escaping. That means that
>> mobility is not required.
 
>> Waste products could be handled by a symiotic relationship with
>> another creature (which DOES have mobility) that feeds upon the
>> waste.
 
>> I think such a mini-ecosystem would be a fine thing for adventurers
>> to discover.

> Scout biologist I to scout biologist II: "It eats WHAT!!? eeeeew!"

Scout biologist II gives SBI a *strange* look: "Where did you get your
training again?"

You see, such behavior is *common*. Fecal matter, does have a lot of
nutrients in it Usually stuff that it wasn't worth the effort for the
critter to digest. But for a creature with a lower energy budget, it's
a fine food source. 

Check out "dung beetles" in any decent text.

> Seriously, the development of intelligence, and later technology, is of
> little clear evolutionary value, as I see it, to stationary lifeforms,
> mostly because the energy requirements are a fair bit higher than most
> sessile organisms can generate.

A sessile predator will have adequate energy sources, *especialy* since
it doesn't need to waste energy on moving. 

> Secondly, I'm making the assumption here that their telekinesis has
> similar energy requirements to using feet to move around and hands to
> grasp, etc, except it is expressed as varying energy fields, not
> discrete grasping or motile structures.

So? That merely means it has the same energy budget as a mobile
predator. Though I could make a strong argument for it being *lower*
because it doesn't have to chase things. 

They *will* have to be well camouflaged *or* have a range greater than
line of sight. Otherwise their prey will simply learn to stay out of
range. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 16:24:41 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Slavery within Traveller

Traveller slavery: Imperial Space

I cannot recall any place in canon that suggest's that slavery was banned
in the First Imperium, or any place where it is specifically
mentioned.  I would guess that, in a status- and caste-bound society,
in love with tradition, corporate efficency and long-term stability,
there would indeed be a minority of slaves in the Ziru Sirka, usually
non-Vilani.  Slavery would normally have a political rather than an
economic goal, to break the local culture and lock in a habit of obedience
to Vilani cultural mores.

No information exist's on the Second Imperium's view of slavery,
but seeing the United Nation ban on slavery, it's likely that it was
abolished.  And of course, the Terran's had no problems with interfering
with local cultures....

In T4's Warrent of Restoration, only chattel slavery is actually
banned.  It is likely, however, that by 1100 all form's of slavery
within the Third Imperium is in effect banned: State law have
a way of growing on you.  Also there's no law forbidding an
Emperor from expanding the range of the slavery ban, (or,
I admit, shrinking it back to the level in the Warrent.)

As to why slavery is banned?

My take on the Imperium is that of a pagan society, so I doubt
if the arguments of the American abolitionist's would cut any
ice here.  Instead, the reason's have more to do with the intellectual
underpinnings of trade.  Cleon I, when designing the Imperial
government wished to maximise the number of consumers that
are available to sell Imperial goods to.  He could tolerate
economic slavery, as that merely insures that debt's are paid.
Indentured service is merely a long-term contract, which ends
when conditions are fulfilled or one of the parties die.  Slavery
as a form of punishment is perfectly justifiable, as merely
another tool of a local government and culture.  Slavery by the
State is unfortuate, but part of the sovereign rights of nations
within the Imperium, and recognized as such: Vilani cultures
would consider any attack on State slavery as an indirect attack
on their heavily bureaucratic, statist culture, and would treat it as
such.

However, chattel slavery would permamently exclude not only the
slaves themselves, but their descendants as well, from a full participation
in Imperial markets.  Their cheapness would hinder industrialization,
keeping systems poor, low tech, and outside of Imperial trade.
People without any hope for freedom may fix the blame for their
condition on the Imperial government, increasing military cost's and
taxes and weakening Imperial commerce.  The legalization of chattel lavery would tempt a future Emperor to soil his
hands with it,
weakening Imperial claims of moral supremacy in the eyes of Christian
and Christian-influenced Solomani.  And the fact that this system could
keep on going for as long as humaniti exist's will keep these issues on
the boil for ages.

***** *****

Traveller slavery: outside of the Imperium

The Solomani Confederation has only one principle: the supremacy
of the Solomani race.  When you factor in the fact that the Confederation
is, indeed, a confederation of several governments, it becomes probable
that slavery does exist to some extent within the Solomani sphere
As to how widespread?  Well, that depends on the local culture's
and religion's.  It's probable that Christianity retain's a good deal of
influence within the Sphere (and even in Imperial Solomani nobility),
tending to limit/ban slavery where it exist's.  "For we serve but one
Master..."

Surprisingly, most non-Solomani within the Confederation are
not enslaved:  so long as they recognize the Solomani destiny to rule
the Galaxy, they are left alone to live as they wish.  The Solomani,
of course, are into creating new species and races to inhabit various
worlds, and have an image of themselves leading all sentients
into prosperity and freedom under their rule, rather than exterminating
them so that only Solomani exist.

The Hive Confederation doesn't actually rule their worlds: individual
hives and local societies do.  Most hives don't pratice slavery, viewing
it as irrational.  There is a suspicion within Imperial circles that slavery is
really too obvious for a race that prefer's to manipulate it's subjects
into obedience, rather than beat them up.  Note that Hiver's are
quite individualistic, and have a distaste for the obvious use of force:
they would tend to rule their subject's in the same way.

The Two Thousand Worlds would do whatever it takes
to eliminate carnivorous behavour in their subjects, including
slavery and genocide (genetic manipulation seems to be unheard-of
there).  The K'kree generally seem to prefer to leave member societies
alone, otherwise: they are big on traditional rule for themselves, at least.

***** *****

Traveller Slavery: The Zhodani Consulate

The Zhodani Consulate, of course, is a Total State.  As such, everyone
except the nobility are slaves to the State, and everything exist's
to serve the State, of course including the official religion.

(Plato's Republic of philosopher-rulers and the monolithic State,
brought to the 57th century: complete with mystical powers, no less!)

The Zhodani nobility are generally not interested in being brutes or thugs,
however: the democratic conceit that all slave owner's are evil has a lot to
do with democratic ideology, and little to do with historical accuracy.

Instead, the Zhodani nobles really do prefer to look out for the interest's
of the Proles, not only as an obvious form of enlightened self-interest,
but often as a demonstration of his power and (self)-righteousness.
Such actions help to legitimize their rule.  And yes, his rule DOES need
to be constantly legitimized: there are only a few psionic individuals
per 10,000 (or more) people, and only a portion (20% ?) of psion's
are mind readers.  Of that percentage, only a minority are powerful
enough to rewire mind's to think in the State-approved manner, and
this takes energy, disipline, and time.

Moreover, to gain popularity, the Zhodani nobility has found it
necessary to *guarantee* happiness to the Proles.  Such promises
are expensive to keep, and would not be made if it wasn't needed.
That same reluctance to provoke the wrath of the Proles encourages the
use of warbot's, rather than put up a draft.  The nobility, with
it's superhuman powers, has to continually and publicly kneel before
public demand's for honour, morality and truthfullness less jealousy
and suspicion get's a strong foothold in the public mind.

(Harshness towards children follow's in the next paragraph's -
some of you may wish to skip it... )

20
19
18
17
16
15
14
13
12
11
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1

The Proles are slaves, indeed - but slavery shape's the master, also.
Even S.M. Stirling's Draka get to have a built-in "protective instinct"
towards their serf's.  They may rape the children of their serf's, but the
children must be made to feel happy rather than violated, and the parent's
rewarded rather than humiliated.

Some may claim that Zhodani obsession with mental health
would forbid such actions.   Nonsense, of course: much of what was
considered mentally unhealthy 100 years ago is considered "normal" today,
from homosexuality to mastubation to abortion.  And there is no reason
to believe that it won't change again 100 year's from now, depending on the political climate.

On the other hand, the Zhodani are not us: their society is quite rigid,
and the psionic nobles seem to take their duties seriously.  It is
most likely that the psions train their own minds to do their duty,
and set up mental blocks in each other's mind to limit abuse of the
Proles.  Otherwise, they would have long ago raped the local population
silly, then turn on each other, with predictable consequences.

On the gripping hand, the Zhodani sense of morality is not based on the
Mosaic code, but on whatever is best for the State.  They recognize no
law that can't be changed by the arbritary rule of the omniscient State,
and do not dread the Lord of the Jewish prophet's, who hear's the cry
of the afflicted.

And of course, the nobles do NOT have the right to be happy, so it's
perfectly understandable - in the Zho's viewpoint - for them to take their
comforts where they can.  In moderation, of course.

So long as perversity is done "in moderation", it's quite possible for the
Zhodani to be highly competent rulers, and occassionaly indulge in
"recreation" with young boy's just growing their first beard, just as
Socrates did.  Set up the culture to run that way for 7000 years
and you will swiftly have a competition for young Proles as escort's
to the nobility, quite willing to prostitute themselves to get on the
fast track to fame and power.

(The Zhodani Consulate was founded in -5823 Imperial / 1303 B.C.,
around the time of the time of Judges in Israel, Ramses I of Egypt,
and the Shang Dynasty of China.  They would hit Jump-1 in -5418 /
898 B.C.)

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20


(OK, you passed the paragraph's)

***** *****

Treatment of Slaves

Treatment of slaves depend's on how closely they are like their master's.
I would guess that treatment from best to worst would scale to:

No difference (same species, race, religion/ideology, culture, etc.)
Different culture
Different religion
Different race
Different species, with physical resembelances (ie mammal-like,
  walk's upright, uses speech to communicate, no unusual abilities
  or deviation for the human norm)
Different species, with some major differences
Different species, with lot's of major differences
Not an animal
Not a organic living being
Not a physical being

History will have a major effect on the treatment of slaves:
a long tradition of slave obedience and obligated masters can
make some forms of servitude preferable to freedom,
if judged materialisticly and politically.

Also of importance is the slave-holder's religion. Different 20th century
atheistic ideologies, for example, can include

- - effectively forbidding the holding slaves (Objectivism, most form's
  of  libertarianism )

- - using slavery only as a form of punishment, or to repay debt's
  (Logically possible in some forms of libertarianism, I suspect)

- - The State own's everything, but in effect "leases"  it's property
   out to tenant's, who may use the property to their own
   advantage, so long as taxes are paid on it and State regulations
   of the use of State property is respected.  (Fascism, Socialism, the
   Corporate State .  The modern-day West operates on a limited,
   pacific varient of the Corporate State, IMO)

- - Individual's may not hold slaves, but the State may
   (Communism).  Ideology is more important than race in 20th
   century version's of this scheme.  In general, all except
   the elite member's of the government are effectively property
   of the State: their labour, their thought's, and their property
   will be disposed of in any way that the government feels desirable.

- - The individual may hold slaves, as well as the State.
   Within the 20th century, this has been limited to
   non-western nations: while a few Islamic states effectively
   legalize slavery, it's scope is limited.  No modern atheistic
   ideology that I am aware of permit's individual's to hold slave.

Variations within atheism include "selfish gene" ideology,
"freedom is all" libertarianism/anarchy, anti-state and pro-state
viewpoints, the joys of Darwinism, etc.  This range would only
expand after another 3000 years.

The above list may be of use in setting up a Hiver slave society: all
Hivers are atheists and incapable of using psionics.  There are two canon
exception's I know of: Hindu hivers - worshipping a kind of Hiver god -
on Terra in DGP's Solomani and Aslan, and a single, unique Hiver "dreamer"
able to psionically see the future, in GDW's Hiver's and Ithklur.  The
Hiver's are not particularly missionary in their belief's, and are willing to
let religions exist within their territory (which they will manipulate for
their own benefit, of course).

Other religious attitudes vary widely, including Islamic slavery
from Mohammed's time to the 19th century (and beyond, in some cases),
American Christians (both abolitionist and pro-slavery)  from the 17th
century to the Civil War, Eastern slavery (Buddist, Hinduist, Confucianist,
Shintoist), etc.  I would expect the an even greater range of attitudes in
the Solomani Confederation and the Vargr Extents, less so
in the Hive Confederation and Imperial Space, and much less so in the
Aslan Hierate, Zhodani Consulate, and the Two Thousand Worlds.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer

The truth is that non-Christian absurdities are much harder to swallow
for less narrow-minded folks. Talking bushes?  Talking snakes?
Those are nothing. The AP and Ms. Gaylor want us to bow to
schizophrenic idols. She evangelizes us to embrace Christian values
of truth, beauty, and goodness without Christianity.
                - Anvil: Editorials, by Douglas Wilson & Douglas Jones
                  In Credenda/Agenda,
                  http://www.credenda.org/issues/vol9/anvi9-2.htm#anvil2

Reply to: aplummer@idirect.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 20:37:57 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

My God! Someone else remembers Algol. Ahh, the good old days when I was a
student, working in Algol 68S on a George II system the size of a hefty
wardrobe in a room with two PDP 8's that you had to bootstrap by flicking
the register switches. Good old days, my arse!!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 14 May 1999 23:57
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans


>>>I had an 8-inch disk drive once, but the only reel-to-reels I had were
>audio
>>>tapes, on an old Phillips. none of the specialist ones.
>>
>>All I have to say is: Punch Cards.  :)
>>
>>Yes, I've used them once.  Yes, it was on an actual in-use machine (not in
>>a museum or something).  Yes, I was five years old at the time, why?
>
>I was somewhat older than that when I used them to program the local banks
>computer in Algol W

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 23:35:44 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: G:T Far Trader - thoughts on Business Owner

Business Owner is the 'general form' of Ship Owner advantage.

It gives a basic KCr 300 in capital, expressed as an equity stake in a ship
or another business.

KCr 300 is about 20 times annual income in the G:T universe.

The G:T universe has a basic rate of interest of 3%, so one could safely
assume that the business should earn about 3% of the KCr 300 a year, or KCr 9.

This is about Struggling, which is about right for a microbusiness (every
extra point adds KCr 150 to the investment, so an extra 5 points in BusOwn
would result in a far more comfortable income).

In a non-Trav campaign, you should adjust Business Owner to be worth less
capital - if in a fantasy campaign starting wealth is $1000, then the basic
worth of BusOwn is $15 000 or so (I wonder how many sheep that it ...).

Looking at the capital costs, basic Business Owner buys doesnt buy you much
- - a shiny new TL8 forklift is KCr 130, while a 5 ston orbital workpod costs
KCr 397. A Modular Cutter with freight module costs MCr 7.7 - far beyond
most sane and reasonable commitments (2 PCs each close to maximng out
Business Owner could afford one though).

The obvious solution is to have the point commitment represent the net
position of the business - it might have more in assets, but it is
encumbered by debts. This could let a business have actual assets.

In any case, the GM should require a Job Roll for the PC to actually run
the business.

Business-oriented players may ask about vertical integration - they own a
Groat Farm on Tarsus, but they think they can make more money (and have
more fun) if they arrange for export of the materials all the way to their
market on Trin, rather than just selling them to a trader at the extrality
fence. The way I would handle that is every KCr 20 of annual income is
represented by 1 dton of speculative goods. The players then have to get it
to market, have it clear customs, find a buyer and so on.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 09:17:26 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #630

>Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 14:36:12 -0400
>From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
>Subject: Re: Analog Aliens
>
>At 09:32 AM 5/15/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>  You know, pirates could probably use drop tanks to deply from their
>>hidden tribe bases to their interdiction stations, and thus have full
>>internal tankage to return to base.
>>
>>  No doubt the tanks could be refurbished by the same facilities that
>>handle annual maintenance, combat repairs, and new builds.
>
>To prevent retaliation from Imperial forces, they can fire automated jump
>torps loaded with Virus eggs (or whatever they are called) against nearby
>Imperial bases.  
>
>They can also use near-c rocks to hold world's hostage.  
>
>Furthermore, they are actually employed by Strephon's clone.
>
>Did I miss anything?

Yeah. Many of them are bisexual Aslani females, and their weapons are all
built by Famile Spofulam.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 09:45:38 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Trade to lo-tech systems

>From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
>Subject: Trade to low-tech systems
>
>The typical issue with trading with low-tech systems
>is what money do they have to give in return for your goods.
>Low-tech, by definition, mean's poor when it comes to societies,
>and the large majority of interstellar lines bypass the majority of
>these unrewarding systems.

<good stuff snipped>

One other important market is ex-Imperial servicepeople.

If Imperial pensions are paid in Imperial credits, a world with 1000 20
year veterens will have IMCr20 burning a hole in their collective pockets
each month.

This is enough to support quite a bit of trade.

>***********
>
>Currency and barter

>The trader have to keep it on planet, and somehow put the money to work
for him, purchasing real estate or in some other
>safe local investment.  (That, of course, was the intent of the world's
government)

Never underestimate the value of a safe bolt-hole.

>
>Another possibility is barter.  This is difficult in a technological
>society, but not impossible: major sections of the Russian
>economy is currently running on barter.  

Stock swaps are barter, remember :)

>This is a major test of the
>free trader's skill, as he needs to have an eye on what his
>stuff is worth compared to the goods the other party has to offer,
>without a currency unit that can equally measure both items.
>The other guy typically knows the local market much better than the
>trader, but the trader knows the off-planet market's better than
>the low-tech local knows.
>

This is the absolute key. If you want to turn a lo-tech market into a
living, you *have* to find something they have that sells well elsewhere.

Handicrafts are an obvious example - a TL2 barbarian will prefer Star-man's
quilts because they are warmer and never get wet. A hi-tech dilletante will
gush over the decorative needlework of such a wonderfully genuine example
of not just pre-stellar but pre-industrial craftwork, no *art*work, and
demand to purchase it for eight hundred Imperial.

Less obvious are industrial products - how many on the list would buy a
Celtic Sword, made by a genuine Celt, assuming such was available ? You
could fit 500 swords into a dton, and at Cr50 each, thats an export cargo
worth 25 grand a dton.

>Goods, of course, need not include only physical things.  Information
>is a favourate good, but you need a keen mind to know how much
>that information is worth.  The locals may also trade labour:
>perhaps a group of local scientist's have put their services to
>market ( to research a new drug, design an new plane, or build a
>new weapon ).  The impoverished youth may be more than willing
>to sign up as fodder for a mercenary group, anything to get
>off-planet.  

Need a ships cook ? Sure, the open fire will play merry hell with the life
support, but *real food* ? If they're from a poor world, then they wont
exactly demand a stateroom of their own ...

>Outside of the Imperium, there may also be
>slave labour available, or psionic individuals who will sell their
>services for a fee.
>
>
>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Alvin Plummer

>From: SRKOALA@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Modular Cutter
>
>HIWG?

History of the Imperium Working Group. Mob of people who worked on the
history of the Traveller Universe during Megatraveller.

>- -Stephen
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 12:00:33 -0500
>From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
>Subject: Re: Trade to low-tech systems
>
>One thing that I found interesting about Peter F. Hamilton's latest series
>of books, was how trade worked between low tech and high tech worlds.
>
>The best example was a planet that was low tech by choice, and the
>government limited what tech could be used imported.
>Now, they exported a highly valued alcoholic beverage to the rest of the
>galaxy.  One enterprising free trader found a world with an abundance of
>lumber, which had a high density, made excellent building material, etc...
>He put two and two together to come up with 1) I trade this really useless
>low tech wood to the planet that can only use low tech building materials
>2) in return, they pay me with the famed liquor that the galaxy craves.
>
>Things like that might work for low tech, high tech trade.

'Hand hewn Railway Sleepers benches ... avalable at all fine House
Accessory stores'

'Natural Wood. Because, really, what else matters but style ?'

You have two excellent target markets on hi-tech worlds for lo-tech goods.
The first is the fashion market - with good enough marketing, the lo-tech
can be sold as a plus. Phrases like 'hand-made', 'primitive' and 'genuine'
should be generously splattered around the brochures. Sure, the modern
equivalent is cheaper, lighter, more effective and doesnt get
creepy-crawlies living in it, but hell, since when has mere efficiency
mattered in fashion ?

The second market is the bleeding-heart market. The example I'm thinking of
is Nicaraguan coffee during the Sandanista years. Nicaragua grows coffee -
it's decent but not great. It was marketed thru left-leaning orginisations
and such, with the not subtle subtext being 'Buy the Coffee to Support the
Revolution'. I'm sure people can think of other examples - the idea of
trade-as-aid has kicked around for a while. It isnt a big market, but if
you are selling to Trin, it doesnt have to be ...

Note that the first strategy will help prevent development in the long
term. A world that has carved a niche for itself may be locked into it - if
your sales pitched is based around lo-tech, then you *cannot* develop
without abandoning this niche.

One concequence seems to be a lack of 'mid-range' worlds in the Imperium -
you are either small and poor, or big and rich. There doesnt seem to be a
hell of a lot in the middle.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 16:11:43
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

At 02:36 PM 5/15/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Did I miss anything?

The colony of 7x10^10 lesbian Aslan livibng on a size one world with an
exotic atmosphere at TL3.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 16:14:45
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

At 02:05 PM 5/15/99 EDT, you wrote:

>What canon laws?

The big Laws of Traveller Canon are:

1. Interstellar travel takes one week, no matter the distance.

2. Travel is the fastest form of communication.

Those two are about it, without going into setting canon.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 17:35:29 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: The P-word

>*sigh* First we had the Piracy debate. Now, it appears, we are having a
>debate about the piracy debate.
>
>OK. In short, what those of us in the anti-piracy faction proved was not
>that piracy is economically unfeasable in the Imperium.
>
>What we proved was that piracy *around mainworlds* is unfeasable.

Wouldn't that depend on the mainworld itself?

Sure, a pirate trying to perform his trade near the 100-diameter limit
of Terra will be blasted into space debris before he can even start his
boarding action. But what about at the 100-diameter limit of the planet
Blargh, with a class E starport and a population of 2,500 (2,750 every
other weekend)? 

(Then again, one could ask what would be worth stealing or hijacking in 
orbit around planet Blargh in the first place...)


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 17:48:44 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Garbage eating aliens

>Of course, I always wonder about the first guy to try beer.  "Hey guys!
>This storage jar of grain leaked, and it's now filled with a thick, syrupy
>foaming water.. let's drink it!"

I remember a gag from comedian Gilbert Gottfried -- he had the same question
about maple syrup that you pose about beer.

"Look! Coming out of this tree! It's disgusting brown goo! Let's eat it!
Let's make OTHER people eat it!"

Seriously, though, the idea of a garbage-eating alien was also done in one
of the series of Wild Cards books. In this series, some event (don't remember
the details) gives some people super powers ("Aces"); other people, it
produces 
big physiological changes in them ("Jokers"). (Most people are just
unaffected.)
In one book there's a "Joker" who looks like a humanoid walrus. Everyone
thinks
he's just another Joker, but he's really an alien hiding in plain sight, so to
speak, while studying us. His method of preparing meat so that it's edible for
him is to leave it sitting on the counter for a few weeks until it rots. 
(Ewwwww. I don't even want to think of what his place must have smelled like.)


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 17:56:56 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Opinions about Language.

I'm looking for some opinions about language in Traveller...

Is Galanglic the same thing as English as it is spoken by the Solomani?  GT
says it is a "distant descendant of Terran English" but it isn't clear if
the descent is the evolution of English as a whole or the splitting off  of
Galanglic from English.

Also, how well have other languages survive on Terra?
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #631
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 16 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 632



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #630
Re: Slavery within Traveller
Re: Slavery within Traveller
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: Slavery within Traveller
Re: Opinions about Language.
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Grounding A Starship (aka Planetary Adventures)
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Re: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)
Re: Grounding A Starship...
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks...
Re: Garbage eating aliens
Re: Kuiper Belters
Re: Slavery within Traveller
Slavery in Traveller
Re: Slavery within Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 21:29:34 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: 3I Raising Military Forces

In a message dated 5/15/99 1:42:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:

<< Wow; you know you legionary history. You cleared up a lot of questions I 
 had...
  >>

	Well, that's my business.   

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 21:45:05 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #630

In a message dated 5/15/99 6:30:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ianw@orac.net.au 
writes:

<< >
 >Did I miss anything?
 
 Yeah. Many of them are bisexual Aslani females, and their weapons are all
 built by Famile Spofulam.
  >>
	No, actually their weapons are all Tech 13-14 relics from the Second 
Imperium


				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 21:43:22 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Slavery within Traveller

	I get the impression that the Third Imperium ban on chattel slavery 
was a visceral reaction to ongoing process, rather than a part of an economic 
master plan.   If you read various bits of Mileau 0, you'll see that pirates 
were capturing Sylean merchant ships and were selling the crews and 
passengers off as slaves.  It was outrage at this piracy and the enslavement 
of fellow-citizens that helped sell the idea of forming the Imperium.   
	Generally people react in their laws to problems of their own day as 
much as to general principal.   If we were to right a Constitution today, I 
doubt we would put in a clause banning the Quartering of Soldiers on 
Civilians in a prominent section, as occurs in the bill of rights of the U.S. 
constitution (18th century).  Quartering of Soldiers is just not a major 
problem in the world today that needs constitutional remedy, as proper as the 
remedy might be.
	Likewise, the slavery and piracy clauses of the Warrant arise as a 
response to the real problem and outrage that such practices caused at the 
end of the Long Night.

				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 23:01:22 EDT
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Slavery within Traveller

Aside from low-tech worlds, institutionalized  economic slavery as we know it 
from Terran history will probably not exist, not because of any act of the 
government or inherent moral goodness of the populace, but rather because 
economically it is a losing proposition.  I don't mean to be callous, but it 
costs good money and a fair amount of effort to be even a miserly slave 
master.  Even if slavery was allowed by the government today, I doubt that 
there would be many slavemasters within a decade or so for the simple reason 
that there is no profit to it.  Machines and free workers are much more 
productive than a pool of slaves.  Then add to that the fact that any 
minority of people who do practice it for their own perverse reasons will 
probably be heavily outnumbered by those who will view slavery with 
repugnance.
Similarly, other forms of slavery practiced in the past to provide a pool of 
loyal underlings, such as the Janissary and Mamluke systems of the Middle 
East fail to make sense in a world with high technology.  It is much easier 
to obtain a reasonably loyal subordinate for a salary plus benefits (better 
yet, a robot) that it is to invest in the infrastructure needed to raise a 
corps of loyal slaves from childhood.  Besides, history tells us that slave 
soldiers and the like almost always eventually rebel or degenerate into a 
power seeking caste of their own
Slavery does have an appeal to totalitarian governments of various stripes as 
a method of oppression and persecution, but I doubt that this would establish 
itself as an accepted practice.  For example, Nazi Germany and the Soviet 
Union under Stalin both adopted what amounted to enslavement of their victims 
and opponents, but in both cases this was merely to derive some economic 
benefit from people who they already had slated to die.  I feel it is 
important that both states were ruled by absolute dictators, but neither 
Hitler nor Stalin openly publicized their respective slave systems.  True 
institutionalized slave societies proudly admitted ( and admit to this day in 
hell-holes like Sudan) just what they were, and developed elaborate moral, 
religious, and political rationales for slavery.  Political slavery tends to 
be a dark secret, and not a part of the general society where it exists.
Who knows what an alien mind would think of the concept of slavery.  I did 
enjoy your previous thoughts on it, but in the  end, who knows.  If you feel 
it's justified in your universe, go for it.  I do need to add that of all of 
the published races, the Vargr seem to me to be the most likely candidates 
for the existance of slave societies.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 00:38:37 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

"Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>


> Why a complicated solution when a simple one will fit canon? [...]
> >I'm am first, last, and always an engineer (At least that is what my SO
> >says.)  KISS! is the watch world for engineers.  It mean 'Keep It Simple
> >Stupid'.  Why, because in many cases the simplest solution that meets the
> >requirements is the best and most servicable with the least unwanted side
> >effects.
>
> Charles, do you use psionics in your Traveller games? If so, then the KISS
> explanation for Virus seems (to me) to be the psionic one. Virus is a
> psionic phenomena, a power developed in the lab in Cyberlime chips that
> enables infected systems to have all of the powers ascribed to them in TNE.  A form of Computer Empathy, Domination, and Psychokinesis (allowing it to propagate by physically changing the nature of the systems
>    it infects).

This is the best expanation of Virus I have ever read.  It neatly cuts the ground out from under all the "Virus can't do that arguments."  You may need to rule if only "life" can have Psionics in your Traveller universe.  If so then Virus is
alive & can therefore be detercted psionically via lifesense which is one of the longest range psionic powers.  This may have significant implications in detecting Virus.  However canon reference to using Computer Empathy to combat Virus
suggest it is more difficult than that.


>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 23:57:12 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Slavery within Traveller

In a message dated 99-05-15 23:06:38 EDT, you write:

<< Slavery does have an appeal to totalitarian governments of various stripes 
as 
 a method of oppression and persecution, but I doubt that this would 
establish 
 itself as an accepted practice.  For example, Nazi Germany and the Soviet 
 Union under Stalin both adopted what amounted to enslavement of their 
victims 
 and opponents, but in both cases this was merely to derive some economic 
 benefit from people who they already had slated to die.  I feel it is 
 important that both states were ruled by absolute dictators, but neither 
 Hitler nor Stalin openly publicized their respective slave systems.  True 
 institutionalized slave societies proudly admitted ( and admit to this day 
in 
 hell-holes like Sudan) just what they were, and developed elaborate moral, 
 religious, and political rationales for slavery.  Political slavery tends to 
 be a dark secret, and not a part of the general society where it exists.
 Who knows what an alien mind would think of the concept of slavery.  I did 
 enjoy your previous thoughts on it, but in the  end, who knows.  If you feel 
 it's justified in your universe, go for it.  I do need to add that of all of 
 the published races, the Vargr seem to me to be the most likely candidates 
 for the existance of slave societies.
  >>
Hmm, the US uses prisoners as a work force, what does that imply?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 00:05:15 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Opinions about Language.

In a message dated 99-05-15 21:01:41 EDT, you write:

<< Also, how well have other languages survive on Terra? >>

As its going now I would say spanish (no affense to the hispanic populashion, 
just those residing in the US who can't read, write, nor speak english) I 
think that most other languages will die out as a result of english becoming 
the language of bussnes.  Sorry for the misspellings, I'm much better at math.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 01:54:37 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-15 19:23:18 EDT, you write:

<< The big Laws of Traveller Canon are:
 
 1. Interstellar travel takes one week, no matter the distance.

xxxx
What about 7pcs?
xxxx 

 2. Travel is the fastest form of communication.
 
 Those two are about it, without going into setting canon. >>

- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 02:33:50 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Grounding A Starship (aka Planetary Adventures)

In a message dated 99-05-15 16:32:41 EDT, you write:

<< There are worse things to discover. For example, read the old Asimov
 short story "Green Patches" (aka "Misbegotten Missionary", a titled
 Asimov loathed). 
 
 Now *that* is a red zone world! >>

No, not red zone, a "you see that planet? Nuke it!"
Altho I don't think anyone got back to tell anyone else that...
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 02:34:38 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

In a message dated 99-05-15 16:32:37 EDT, you write:

<< > Don't know about the Nordon, but AFAIK the Enigma used electrical relays
 > and switches to do the actual computing.  It wasn't all clockwork.  
 
 The enigma was digitial. It had discrete states (rotor positions). 
 
 The analog computers used for the big guns on battleships were
 essentially a bunch cams riding on a carefully shaped surface (a
 complex curve).  >>

What was Purple?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 23:38:17 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)

>Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 21:07:02 -0400
>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>

>At 01:33 PM 5/14/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:02:36 PST
>>>I doubt *anyone* is going to trust an automated setup to pilot
>>>something that big without human supervision.
>>
>>Actually, these days we can get our probes to hit right on
>>without much problem.  However, my guess is that it would be
>
>	Sure we can. But until DS-1, NONE of them could do diddly without
>human supervision and commanding.

But we _are_ at DS-1 and the Imperium is _7_ TTLs ahead of us.
Besides, if it really bothered them, they could just check in on it
every month by remote control (like we do).

>And we've also failed the last four
>DoD launches (plus a commercial launch or two) ...

Doesn't really apply either way.  Those are launch vehicle
failures.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 03:05:43 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

In a message dated 99-05-15 07:31:48 EDT, you write:

<< Whilst engaged in a firefight on board a ship in orbit around a planet, my 
player's character decided to escape by jumping out of the airlock using an 
atmospheric re-entry kit.  Unfortunately he forgot that the world was a 
vacuum world and so there was no atmosphere.
 
 Andy >>

Splat! 
What TL was it at?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 11:48:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)

In mail you write:

>> From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>> Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation
>
>> No she hasn't been. Like most first rates she was kept in reserve during
>> peacetime. And since Trafalger she has effectively been in reserve (laid
>> up in a graving dock). A better example of a ship in commission might
>> be USS Consitution (built 1797) which is still in sea-going commission.
>> 
>> ObTrav: Given the slow pace of technological change in the 3I and the
>> relalively "vessel friendly" nature of space; just how long does an
>> Imperial warship stay in service.
>
> I had an idea for an adventure along these lines a while ago (while
> living in Boston, where the Constitution is moored, about 10 years ago;
> it was also a great field trip in fourth grade).  An historical warship
> is at the high port as a museum, run by the Imperial Navy.  Maybe it's
> still commissioned, and maybe not.  It should be at some backwater
> world.  The museum staff, expecting war, quietly make the ship
> spaceworthy and bring at least her main weapons online.  War breaks out,
> and the ship is a big surprise to someone -- the Zhodani scouts who
> appear to check out the system, the Ine Givar ground forces who thought
> they'd take over the government in a walk, etc.  

Well, that reminds me of one of my "back burner" projects. I'd like to
assemble the data on all the *seriously proposed* spacecraft designs
from the 1930s on. And convert them to Traveller. Ditto for some of the
real ones.

The idea is to use them as low TL craft. Heck, set up a system with a
minor human race and the right sort of planets, and have the players
make first contact about the time they finish the "Conquest of Space"
scenario from the 1950s. 

And using these as a "base" see what can be done about refitting some
of them into starships. My example from last time this came up was a
Space Shuttle that had been salvaged from an orbital junkyard and
refitted with a small fusion plant and a jump drive.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 04:10:43 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

In a message dated 99-05-13 19:43:28 EDT, you write:

<< Mechanical computers. Charles Babbage's one was recently built by the
 Science Museum in London. Check out the Gibson (and Sterling?) novel 'The
 Difference Engine'. >>

Thanks, I'll do that.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 04:34:20 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)

In a message dated 99-05-16 03:33:43 EDT, you write:

<< Well, that reminds me of one of my "back burner" projects. I'd like to
 assemble the data on all the *seriously proposed* spacecraft designs
 from the 1930s on. And convert them to Traveller. Ditto for some of the
 real ones.
 
 The idea is to use them as low TL craft. Heck, set up a system with a
 minor human race and the right sort of planets, and have the players
 make first contact about the time they finish the "Conquest of Space"
 scenario from the 1950s. 
 
 And using these as a "base" see what can be done about refitting some
 of them into starships. My example from last time this came up was a
 Space Shuttle that had been salvaged from an orbital junkyard and
 refitted with a small fusion plant and a jump drive.
  >>

Deadle, Orion, Lightcraft, they would all make for interesting ships.
You jump into a void (hex with no starsystem) and what do you find? a sleeper 
ship.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 21:07:03 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Grounding A Starship...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, 15 May 1999 7:00
Subject: Re: Grounding A Starship (aka Planetary Adventures)


>> ObTrav: Although hi-TL ships usually don't have to worry about
>> damage like this, there *are* critters on various planets which
>> can do incredible damage once onboard. One of the old JTAS's
>> has a creature feature (I'm a poet and didn't know it :) on
>> an eel/worm which digests various light metals, including
>> shipboard circuitry.
>
>Doyle's Eel, a silicate based critter usually whacked out if you stop at a
>*real* port, but can sometimes get into a ship if you land *outside* it
(say,
>cause you're trying to sneak something past customs?).
>


Yep, one of my most successful stings was Doyle's Eel, PC's lost their ship
and almost lost their lives because of a fake one of these things.

PC's had an NPC crewmember whose wealthy father didn't want working with
such riff raff... the boy was to inherit his father's empire one day, after
all.  So dad hired an assassin to take the crew out and "rescue" his son,
and show the boy how dangerous working for independents could be.

Scene:  A low class space port, away from the world's main starport, where
PC's were able to deal and sell stuff acquired through adventuring for ship
repairs and/or upgrades -- often legal, always dodgy.  This time they were
purchasing some military grade hardware for their serpent class extended
scout from a dodgy source... but someone they knew and trusted.  They saved
and dealt for months to afford such an upgrade, and took ages for their
friend to track it down and do the installation for them.

Enter the assassin... A nondescript man, looks like any maintenance man
anywhere on any world.  Just spent a few days on another ship in the space
port cleaning out an infestation of Doyle's Eels, and was offering to
"delouse" the other three ships here (including the PC's vessel).  Produces
a sealed, clear jar full, of clear liquid with one of the beasties in it and
a bio-hazard box on a work-tool trolley full of dead eels, "The Purple
Limpet was infested with these mothers!" (I had made the PC's aware of these
things when I first read about them under the assumption that if they were
such a well known pest, a SS crew would know about them -- and they
remembered).  They took the sealed jar and looked at it carefully and
decided they would pay the not-so-cheap fee asked for their removal (the
PC's thought I was using the eels to simply remove some cred's from them :^)
and were grateful the guy came along when he did.  The eels were a
high-quality, moulded rubber that appeared to be very real.

Booked in, the assassin had offered his "services" to all the other ships
there before asking the PC's, so he had access to their vessel just after
the refit was finished and a few days before they were expected to leave.
He had total access to **every** part of the PC's ship and placed explosives
in the most PC-inaccessible places he could (places the PC's wouldn't
normally require access to during routine running of the serpent) find, and
had them set to activate when the jump program was run, to explode 5-days
into jump (the bastard wanted the PC's to go through to near the end of the
jump before dying -- he was twisted like that :^).

Anyway, the PC's thanked him, went about prep to head off and load a cargo
and the assassin kidnapped the son of the wealthy patron.  PC's being PC's
in a hurry, decided to head off (the NPC wasn't a close friend or any such
thing) without the lad.  They ran some routine checks/manoeuvres and
whatever else they were supposed to do and when it was time, started to run
the jump routine and program.  Just then, the engineer failed a pre-jump
roll on a piece of equipment that had been faulty for several game sessions
previously, but passed the roll to correct the error, he then deemed (on the
side of safety) that they should cancel the jump, return dirtside and have
the thing properly repaired by the friend they trusted, knowing he would fix
it properly.  The rest agreed and they cancelled the jump and diddly bopped
off, back to planet-side.

They were in a bar when they saw on the news that a SS had exploded and been
destroyed in a small spaceport near their location -- there was only one
spaceport near their location... and they knew while watching the footage,
that their's was the only extended Serpent at that spaceport!!!

The assassin's wealthy patron was to have his son returned to him, and the
man was going to "help" his son find the PC's and "get them to return so his
son could re-join the crew" (thus being a nice guy), but ultimately point
out to the boy that they had disappeared, presumed lost, presumed dead.

The PC's ended up rescuing the NPC, but the guy failed moral or something
after their ship had been destroyed in port, and decided to return to dad
anyway!  The players enjoyed the trick, but never caught the assassin, they
enjoyed the game immensely.  The PC's then went on to the Traveller
Campaign...

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 21:18:40 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks...

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    -----Original Message-----
    From: Andrew Brandford <abrandford@caesar32.freeserve.co.uk>
    To: traveller-digest@mpgn.com <traveller-digest@mpgn.com>
    Date: Saturday, 15 May 1999 9:39
    Subject: RE: Stupid Traveller Tricks
   =20
   =20
    Whilst engaged in a firefight on board a ship in orbit around a =
planet, my player's character decided to escape by jumping out of the =
airlock using an atmospheric re-entry kit.  Unfortunately he forgot that =
the world was a vacuum world and so there was no atmosphere.
    =20
    Andy
   =20
    Now this one reminds me of the psionic PC caught when a coup they =
were supporting, failed and he was the only one of the PC's captured.  =
He was captured because he was seriously injured.  During interrogation, =
a video was produced showing him using telekinesis on a door (IIRC?), =
and they threatened to perform a lobotomy upon him whether he talked or =
not!  So, using all of his psi points, he teleported out of the room -- =
naked, into the corrosive atmosphere of the world they were on!
   =20
    --  The Roc

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<HEAD>

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Andrew Brandford &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:abrandford@caesar32.freeserve.co.uk">abrandford@caesar32.f=
reeserve.co.uk</A>&gt;<BR><B>To:=20
    </B><A =
href=3D"mailto:traveller-digest@mpgn.com">traveller-digest@mpgn.com</A>=20
    &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:traveller-digest@mpgn.com">traveller-digest@mpgn.com</A>&g=
t;<BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Saturday, 15 May 1999 9:39<BR><B>Subject: </B>RE: Stupid =
Traveller=20
    Tricks<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Whilst engaged in a firefight on =
board a=20
    ship in orbit around a planet, my player's character decided to =
escape by=20
    jumping out of the airlock using an atmospheric re-entry kit.&nbsp;=20
    Unfortunately he forgot that the world was a vacuum world and so =
there was=20
    no atmosphere.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Andy</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Now this one reminds me of the =
psionic PC=20
    caught when a coup they were supporting, failed and he was the only =
one of=20
    the PC's captured.&nbsp; He was captured because he was seriously=20
    injured.&nbsp; During interrogation, a video was produced showing =
him using=20
    telekinesis on a door (IIRC?), and they threatened to perform a =
lobotomy=20
    upon him whether he talked or not!&nbsp; So, using all of his psi =
points, he=20
    teleported out of the room -- naked, into the corrosive atmosphere =
of the=20
    world they were on!</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>--&nbsp; The=20
Roc</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BE9FE1.AB383C80--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 21:41:48 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Garbage eating aliens

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, 16 May 1999 1:41
Subject: Re: Garbage eating aliens


>At 04:27 AM 5/15/99 EDT, you wrote:
>
>> Another alien that this discussion brings to mind is a recurring fellow
>>from the pages of Analog SF. Food isn't "edible" until it's what we
>>consider rotten:
>>  "I left a head of lettuce in the fridge for two months, just for you."
>> "Aww, you shouldn't have."
>
>You run into that here on Earth.  We had a Japanese friend visit, and she
>almost got sick watching me eat a cheeseburger.  She couldn't comprehend my
>enjoyment of milk so rotten that it has soldified.
>
>Of course, I always wonder about the first guy to try beer.  "Hey guys!
>This storage jar of grain leaked, and it's now filled with a thick, syrupy
>foaming water.. let's drink it!"
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html
>

Oddly enough, the many Japanese we have hosted as house guests in our home,
love cheese?  But when you put it that way, what about all the stuff they
eat everyday which is fermented (half rotten when you look at what it is).

But it does point out a diversity... "Raw fish!  They eat raw fish!?!?"  We
eat yogurt and can't come at raw fish?  Brings to mind some haggis... what
about a nice tongue sandwich?  Ox hearts?  Oooo... brainsssssss...  Looking
at what we eat, it wouldn't surprise me what an alien might eat at all!  ;^)

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 14:24:51 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Kuiper Belters

The spring issue of "Scientific American Presents : The Future of Space
Exploration" has an article entitled "Tapping the Waters of Space".

It considers the 3000 estimated Near Earth Asteroids (NEAs) as a huge potential
for water. They contain an estimated 6,000 billion tons (6E12 tons) of water.
Some are thought to contain as much as sixty percent water.

They are also quite easy to get to. 30 of them are considered easier to get to
than the moon (due to their low gravity). So it should be fairly easy to prod
them into orbits close to the 100D limit. We could probably do it using existing
technology, albeit very slowly.

This provides enough hydrogen to fuel a main route with a million DT of trade
per week for around 40,000 years. [Figures based on Jump-2 20kDT Freighters
carrying 13kDT freight, 4kDT hydrogen]

Even if the figures are out by a factor of a hundred there is still plenty of
fuel in NEAs.

Kuiper belting might be some way off.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 09:50:58 EDT
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Slavery within Traveller

What does the use of prison labor in the US imply?  As it pertains to a 
conversation on slavery, not much.  If your point is that somehow Nazi 
Germany, the Soviet Union, and the US are morally equivalent, all I can say 
is go to a good library, do some research on totalitarianism for a few years, 
and then come back so we can continue.  My father and brother both did time 
in our Federal penal system, and yes, they were forced to perform prison 
labor.  However, to say that this somehow makes the US prison system into the 
successor to the Gulag or Nazi slave labor camps is to display a frightening 
lack of knowledge on the history of the twentieth century.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 11:10:48 -0400
From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
Subject: Slavery in Traveller

Your discussion of slavery in Traveller on the mailing list was outstanding.
I have been thinking alot about the structure of Vilani Ziru Sirka society.
Canon materials after Vilani and Vargr depict them as a harmonious group
oriented society.  This doesn't explain the brutality of the Ziru Sirka's
conquests and their subsequent tyranny and oppression (the
destruction/subjugation of every race with jump drive? this doesn't sound
like a harmonious, enlightened people).  Trouble is, this lack of
information and the bland depiction of the Vilani in published materials
don't really make them interesting to play, and the bulk of the population
in the 3I is probably Vilani. One can argue that the 3I is solomani
influenced, but I suspect that the Solomani would have been quickly absorbed
by majority Vilani populations, through intermarriage and Solomani children
being raised in a Vilani environment.  It also leaves a gap about mainstream
3I culture.  We don't know how the citizens of the Imperium act and think.
The aslan ihatei are clearly defined, as are the Vargr.  The Solomani are
clearly defined also (they're culturally closest to Earth, and their
struggle against the Imperium goes a long way to define them).  As for the
3I?  What is important to them?  What drives them?  What are their attitudes
towards other humans, aliens, economics, etc?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 08:40:45 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Slavery within Traveller

KenRoney@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Aside from low-tech worlds, institutionalized  economic slavery as we know it
> from Terran history will probably not exist, not because of any act of the
> government or inherent moral goodness of the populace, but rather because
> economically it is a losing proposition.  I don't mean to be callous, but it
> costs good money and a fair amount of effort to be even a miserly slave
> master.  Even if slavery was allowed by the government today, I doubt that
> there would be many slavemasters within a decade or so for the simple reason
> that there is no profit to it.  Machines and free workers are much more
> productive than a pool of slaves.  

I have two words for you: "Sweat shops"

People are regularly arrested and prosecuted on slavery charges in the US
today, mostly revolving around small groups of illegal aliens.

One can argue, successfully, that these sorts of operations are artifacts of
our (the US, that is) convoluted and schizoid policies toward
immigration...that these people are here illegally, often at great cost
(putting them into indentured slavery off the bat) and must live as
non-visible a life as possible to avoid capture and deportation makes them
particularly vulnerable.

While as Alvin says, chattel slavery won't exist, indentured servitude,
so-called 'contract workers' certainly will.

For instance, look at all those type 1 worlds out there. There are 696 of them
in the MT survey stats (Genie data set) with 3.83e12 people living on them
(almost 7% of the total Imperial population). Here it is broken down by TL:

 TechLevel Num Worlds  Pop                  Ave Pop/World
 --------- ----------- -------------------- --------------------
 0                   1       4000000.000000       4000000.000000
 1                   3     300001009.000000     100000336.333333
 2                   5     806000054.000000     161200010.800000
 3                  10   71621170898.000000    7162117089.800000
 4                  20   13224874516.000000     661243725.800000
 5                  31   55201409808.000000    1780690638.967742
 6                  41  228619293159.000000    5576080320.951220
 7                  68  416499322516.000000    6124990037.000000
 8                  71  243673722777.000000    3432024264.464789
 9                  82  839421471168.000000   10236847209.365854
 10                 85  474329070909.000000    5580342010.694118
 11                 76  534948420332.000000    7038795004.368421
 12                 71  494380652521.000000    6963107781.985915
 13                 44   39429907890.000000     896134270.227273
 14                 39  138698517395.000000    3556372240.897436
 15                 42  282740791262.000000    6731923601.476191
 16                  7          2023.000000           289.000000

Notice that the TL of these 'Corporate Worlds' aka 'Company Towns' peaks at
early stellar (TL9). They may be high tech workers, but a significant number
of them are going to be working under indentured servitude conditions. (How's
that old song go? "Moved Ten tons of coal today / one day older and deeper in
debt" )

Notice, the TL9 Corporate worlds _average_ out as Pop A worlds! These worlds
are the 'big guns' of the Imperium, what all that trade is all about. Granted,
they're a small percentage of the population as a whole, but nearly 400
billion sophonts are nothing to sneeze at.

And DON'T get me started on those Feudal Technocracies...while the book
definition may include the phrase 'mutual agreement' serfs in feudal Europe
were bound to their land, essentially, they were slaves. (oops! Now I've gone
and done it! "Pirates and Feudals and ViRocks, OH MY!" :-)

There are, by the way, 1253 systems in the database listed as Feudal
Technocracies, with a population of 5.0e12, or 9.1% of the total Imperial population...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #632
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 16 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 633



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Opinions about Language.
Re: Analog Aliens Take II
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #630
Re: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)
Re: Opinions about Language.
Re: Analog Aliens Take II
Re: Slavery within Traveller
The Difference Engine
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks...
Stupid PC Tricks
Re: Virus debate
:> was Re: Computer Technology
Re Unit Sizes
Re: Re Unit Sizes
Re: Slavery within Traveller
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)
Re: Analog Aliens Take II
Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)
Spreadsheet for GURPS 
Re: Base Codes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 09:53:04
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Opinions about Language.

At 05:56 PM 5/15/99 -0700, you wrote:
>I'm looking for some opinions about language in Traveller...
>
>Is Galanglic the same thing as English as it is spoken by the Solomani?  GT
>says it is a "distant descendant of Terran English" but it isn't clear if
>the descent is the evolution of English as a whole or the splitting off  of
>Galanglic from English.

IMTU, Galangic is about as close to Modern English as Modern English is to
the tongue spoken just after the Norman invasion.  A 20th Century
inhabitant suddenly dropped into the Imperium would have to learn the
entire language from scratch.  Galangic has borrowed heavily from Vilani,
and while not tonal, would be more fluid.

The Solomani language is probably only marginally closer to what we speak.
We are talking about millennia of linguistic drift.

>Also, how well have other languages survive on Terra?

Poorly, I would imagine.  Languages suffer when the native speakers need to
learn a second language to compete.  Tongues like Navajo and Welsh are
disappearing as fewer and fewer children are taught to speak it as a native
language.  Navajo is rapidly becoming to the tribe what Latin is to Roman
Catholics.. a holy tongue for religious ceremonies.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"When you're raised by the Jesuits, you
end up obedient or impertinent."
   - Asst DA Jack McCoy, _Law And Order_

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 12:38:34 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II

At 11:25 AM 5/15/99 PST, you wrote:
>>> I think such a mini-ecosystem would be a fine thing for
adventurers
>>> to discover.
>
>> Scout biologist I to scout biologist II: "It eats WHAT!!? eeeeew!"
>
>Scout biologist II gives SBI a *strange* look: "Where did you get
your
>training again?"
>
>You see, such behavior is *common*. Fecal matter, does have a lot of
>nutrients in it Usually stuff that it wasn't worth the effort for
the
>critter to digest. But for a creature with a lower energy budget,
it's
>a fine food source. 

	I've been told cats have very inefficient digestive systems ... so
the high-protein food that comes in the front comes out the back
still fairly high. Hence dogs' fascination with the litterboxes,
which is why a friend refers to the contents as "tootsie rolls."
NEVER let yourself be kissed by a dog living in a house with cats!
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 12:40:16 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #630

At 09:17 AM 5/16/99 +1100, you wrote:
>>>  You know, pirates could probably use drop tanks to deply from
their
>>>hidden tribe bases to their interdiction stations, and thus have
full
>>>internal tankage to return to base.
>>>
>>>  No doubt the tanks could be refurbished by the same facilities
that
>>>handle annual maintenance, combat repairs, and new builds.
>>
>>To prevent retaliation from Imperial forces, they can fire
automated jump
>>torps loaded with Virus eggs (or whatever they are called) against
nearby
>>Imperial bases.  
>>
>>They can also use near-c rocks to hold world's hostage.  
>>
>>Furthermore, they are actually employed by Strephon's clone.
>>
>>Did I miss anything?
>
>Yeah. Many of them are bisexual Aslani females, and their weapons
are all
>built by Famile Spofulam.

	Not all of them ... I'm sure the Sayat provide a large supply of
Pelvic Mounted Plasma Pistols and other toys.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 12:45:38 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)

At 11:38 PM 5/15/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 21:07:02 -0400
>>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>
>>At 01:33 PM 5/14/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>>>Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:02:36 PST
>>>>I doubt *anyone* is going to trust an automated setup to pilot
>>>>something that big without human supervision.
>>>
>>>Actually, these days we can get our probes to hit right on
>>>without much problem.  However, my guess is that it would be
>>
>>	Sure we can. But until DS-1, NONE of them could do diddly without
>>human supervision and commanding.
>
>But we _are_ at DS-1 and the Imperium is _7_ TTLs ahead of us.
>Besides, if it really bothered them, they could just check in on it
>every month by remote control (like we do).

	My point was simply that "these days we ..." is stretching it; it's
still an experimental technology and everybody is excited about the
fact that DS-1 "seems" to be succeeding.

>>And we've also failed the last four
>>DoD launches (plus a commercial launch or two) ...
>
>Doesn't really apply either way.  Those are launch vehicle
>failures.

	At least two of the five were computer/guidance related, not really
"launch vehicle"--both DSP and Milstar launched successfully, and
apparently encountered problems with the IUS/Centaur that was
supposed to boost them to geosynchronous.

	NOTE: I say "apparently" because I am not involved with either
failure investigation, am not basing this statement on any AF
internal or privileged information, and am not in any way
representing or speaking on behalf of any governmental agency or
contractor ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 13:15:01 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Opinions about Language.

At 09:53 AM 5/16/99 +0000, you wrote:
>IMTU, Galangic is about as close to Modern English as Modern English is to
>the tongue spoken just after the Norman invasion.  A 20th Century
>inhabitant suddenly dropped into the Imperium would have to learn the
>entire language from scratch.  Galangic has borrowed heavily from Vilani,
>and while not tonal, would be more fluid.

Uhm... Actually Middle English (as in post-1066) isn't that different from
modern spoken English.   It's certainly the same language, if a different
dialect.  It's kind of hard to read, but if you sound out the words you can
get the hang of it in a few hours.  Pre-1066 (Old) English OTOH is much
closer to modern German than to English and is _really_ different.  Is this
what you meant perhaps?



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- -- 
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 11:26:32 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II

>> Scout biologist I to scout biologist II: "It eats WHAT!!? eeeeew!"
>
>Scout biologist II gives SBI a *strange* look: "Where did you get your
>training again?"
>
>You see, such behavior is *common*. Fecal matter, does have a lot of
>nutrients in it Usually stuff that it wasn't worth the effort for the
>critter to digest. But for a creature with a lower energy budget, it's
>a fine food source. 

SB1 must be from the planet Ajax, the world with the highest per-capita
usage of cleaning products in the Imperium. This is a planet where
littering is punishable by a jail term, and the sight of some sort of 
biological refuse is enough to cause mass panic and hysteria among the 
populace. :)

This would be an interesting world for a group of PCs to visit...
At the planetary customs office: "You may proceed. Here's your soap."
(Hands each PC a fresh bar) "The showers are through there."


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 11:31:42 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Slavery within Traveller

I know I'm leaving myself open for flames here, but what the heck...

>The Solomani Confederation has only one principle: the supremacy
>of the Solomani race.  When you factor in the fact that the Confederation
>is, indeed, a confederation of several governments, it becomes probable
>that slavery does exist to some extent within the Solomani sphere
>As to how widespread?  Well, that depends on the local culture's
>and religion's.  It's probable that Christianity retain's a good deal of
>influence within the Sphere (and even in Imperial Solomani nobility),
>tending to limit/ban slavery where it exist's.  "For we serve but one
>Master..."

The Bible does not specifically ban slavery. In fact, there are passages
within it stating how slaves ought to be treated -- the message found
within is not that slavery is bad, but that slaves should be treated
humanely and well. 

Overall, I found your discourse on slavery to be well written. And I agree
with your main rationale for no wide-spread slavery in the Imperium (a
mercantile/consumer society works better without slavery). But I had to
point out the error in your reasoning vis-a-vis slavery and Christianity.


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 10:50:44 -0700
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: The Difference Engine

Traveller-digest wrote:

> << Mechanical computers. Charles Babbage's one was recently built by the
>  Science Museum in London. Check out the Gibson (and Sterling?) novel 'The
>  Difference Engine'. >>

I used this as a scenario in a Wild West game we played once, the bad guys kept coming into town and picking up bits and pieces of the computer as they were shipped in from Germany and England, when it really got intersting was when the
characters intercepted the master gearing's.  They had no idea what the's complicated multi geared brass thingies were for.

On the subject of the book I found it difficult to read.  I love Gibson, nice fellow, somewhat odd though and I bitched to him about this, but I really got involved in the initial story line, following what what going on and so an then all of a
sudden, POOF!  GONE!  The whole scenario changed and the characters vanished.  Man that pissed me off, took five readings to get over that fact so I could continue on with the book.

Gibson himself didn't really like the way that that worked, he thought that the intro was to long and tended to do that to people, pull them into the initial characters, before simply abandoning them.

DS

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 14:36:13 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks...

In a message dated 5/16/99 5:08:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, roc@kewl.com.au 
writes:

<< So, using all of his psi points, he teleported out of the room -- naked, 
into the corrosive atmosphere of the world they were on!
      >>

probably better than the lobotomy...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 13:04:07 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Stupid PC Tricks

My favourite Stupid PC story (which I've recounted here before) involved
two groups of rival PCs playing on different days of the week in the same
AD&D campaign. Through an elaborate ruse, one group managed to indirectly
convince the other group that a certain dungeon contained an artifact
related to the mummified "Hand of Vecna" and "Eye of Vecna". According to
the _DM's Guide_, if you chopped off your hand and replaced it with the
Hand of Vecna, you would acquire the fabulous powers of the legendary mage,
Vecna; same deal with the Eye.

Well, the second group of PCs had become convinced that they'd found the
long-lost "Head of Vecna"! After arguing over who would get the
*priviledge* of trying it out, their human fighter won the honor; he knelt
down and invited another PC to chop his head off.

Of course, when the Head was placed on his neck, it just toppled off onto
the ground.

Incredibly, they decided that the Head had rejected the fighter because he
wasn't a mage. So the group's magic-user volunteered. They chopped his head
off, and again Vecna's Head failed to adhere. Finally they began to suspect
that they might've been had...

Gotta be the *stupidist* PC's I've ever heard of.

Best,

 + GMG +

               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net>
_Northern Suns: The New Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_
          Edited by David Hartwell & Glenn Grant
           now in hardcover from Tor Books

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 20:38:44 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Virus debate

Derek Stanley wrote:

>Realistically not a whole hell of a lot, we're seperated by nearly 5000
>years I'm sure a lot has happened between now and then inspite of the
>Long Night.  But here's what we do know.
>
>1)  They're still using silicon.

Really? Since current silicon is up against the wall; I'd expect that
they would be GaAs or somesuch. At higher TLs, I would be expecting
optical chips rather than electronic...

>2)  They're likely considerably faster, however the tables presented in
>FF&S 1 and 2 really don't bear this out.  They're larger, heavier, more
>expensive and only give you a maintenance modifier that's in the
>neighborhood of three times more effective.
>
>Man Intell really fell down on the job didn't they?  "Introducing the PM
>Chip from Intell, sure it's the size of a Buick but think of how much
>faster it is..."  (M is the Roman numeral for 1000 just in case).  Maybe
>Imperial ships use high compression vaccum tubes...

Vacuum tubes are better in a nuclear environment...

>3)  They likely can do a pretty good job a faking their way through AI
>but their conversation patterns are likely somewhat limited.

So no change from today.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 20:31:00 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: :> was Re: Computer Technology

SD Mooney wrote:

>Well, my PowerBook requires a cross headed screwdriver to open it, and the
>6400 can be done using thumbscrews (that didn't come out quite how I
>meant!) ie screws you can turn with your thumb. The K2 and G3 boxes are
>even easier...

Young pup. I refer, of course, to the old Macs which required a `Mac
cracker' to open them (well, if you wanted to be able to close them
again afterwards).

I'd also point out that the PCs that were imposed on us at work a couple
of years ago open in a very similar manner to the G3 PowerMacs.

>And I won't go into how much easier to use ;-)

No, let's not go there.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 10:58:56 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Unit Sizes

>		Finally, My Point:    It seems that the Regiment is about
>adeal size for individual loyalty.  It is about the same scale as the Legion
>and both units are the focus of "Unit Identity".  I suppose that some of that
>has to do with the scale of the unit and the ability for at  least a part of
>the unit to survive almost any disaster (save the worst ).   Or because units
>any larger require a diversity of training and function to dilute that
>identity.   Or maybe its as big as it gets before members are no longer able
>to have a reasonable chance at being acquainted with the faces and names of a
>significant portion of  the members.

Personal loyalties woudl tend (from what I understand of psychology,
sociology, and personal experiences) to be limited to about 20-30 people;
indirect loyalties generally goe to a particular leadership position... The
trick is that in a regiment under current systems, most troops will be able
to "know" and be loyal to their immediate buddies, plus their chain of
command up through the regiment, and sometimes brigade levels. Officers
generally will know each other through the regimental level. This is based
upon the commentaries of Trotski, BH Liddell-Hart, and training materials
from the US Army's Command and General Staff College (I read a lot of the
non-classified GCSC materials when My father took the correspondence course
from there)

>	Point 2:  Is the proportion of commisioned officers in the 3I as high
>as modern armies?   Pournelle has alot of grumblings about keeping the
>proportion of comminsioned officers low in an efficient military, and the
>Romans certainly seemed to agree.
>
Trotski, when he re-stratified/Re-tsarified the Soviet Army, moved from 2
officers (Commander and Political Officer) per company, back towards a
warrant per platoon, 3 officers and a political officer per company, and
genuine officer and warrant based staffs at Battallion and higher commands.
Soviet warrants of that time seem more akin to US Senior NCO's in role, but
had officer priveledges. He did, however, specify that the troops were to
know and (hopefully) trust their warrants (Praporschiki), who were to be
loyal to their officers and the officers to be loayl to the party.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 16:22:29 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Re Unit Sizes

At 10:58 AM 5/15/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Soviet warrants of that time seem more akin to US Senior NCO's in role, but
>had officer priveledges. He did, however, specify that the troops were to
>know and (hopefully) trust their warrants (Praporschiki), who were to be
>loyal to their officers and the officers to be loayl to the party.

Hmm, funny.  I've always thought Praporschik meant Corporal (I'm a native
Russian speaker).  However, the dictionary confirms your translation as
either warrant officer or ensign.  In any case, in the 1980s at least,
Praporschiki were certainly treated on the same level as fairly low-level
NCOs, not officers.

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 18:50:28 EDT
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Slavery within Traveller

You made some very good points, and I was impressed by the numbers that you 
used to back up your argument.  One point which I do dispute is your 
contention that many people in the US are convicted every year for slavery.  
I'm pretty alert to all those sweatshop/indentured servitude stories that hit 
the news. I feel that it supports my proposition that institutional "slavery" 
has tended to be eliminated as technology has progressed.  Criminals will 
always coerce and victimize whoever they can, they always have and probably 
always will.  However, note that what you cited as current day evidence is 
criminal activity, abhored by most, and prosecuted often.
Economic serfdom, Corporate worlds and all those Feudal Technocracies, hmmm, 
now that's another thing!  :-)  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 03:49:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 99-05-15 16:32:37 EDT, you write:
>
> << > Don't know about the Nordon, but AFAIK the Enigma used electrical relays
>  > and switches to do the actual computing.  It wasn't all clockwork.  
>  
>  The enigma was digitial. It had discrete states (rotor positions). 
>  
>  The analog computers used for the big guns on battleships were
>  essentially a bunch cams riding on a carefully shaped surface (a
>  complex curve).  >>
>
> What was Purple?

Much the same as Enigma You had a series of rotors, with one contact
for each character on each side, and gear teeth around the outside.
Inside the rotor wires ran between the "in" and "out" contacts. This
"mapped" an input character to a (usually different) output character.
Different rotors had different mappings. You'd insert the specified
rotors form those available. For example, if it was a 5-rotor machine,
you might insert rotor 10, 7, 12, 2, and 17 in that order. And line
them up so that certain characters were showing on the rim.

The machine had a keyboard. You'd type a character, the current for
that key would go to a *fixed* contact in contact with an input contact
on the first rotor. From there, it went thru the wires inside the
rotor to the output contact. From there it went to the input of the
next rotor, and so on until the last rotor where it went to a fixed
contact that determined what character got printed. 

So, for example, you type an A, the current goes in the A contact of
rotor 1 and comes out the Q contact. So it'd go into whatever contact on
rotor 2 that was touching the Q contact on rotor 1, and out some other
contact. Finally, at the far end it comes out at the contact for some
letter. All determined by the rotors and what position they had with
respect to each other.

Ok, just as is, this would scramble things pretty badly. But Every time
you typed an A, you'd get the same letter at the output. So, when
you released the key, the gearing inside rotated the first rotor one
character. So now, if you hit an A, it'd go into the *B* contact on the
rotor. Which would be wired to something other than Q (and probably
*not* to R!). So what came out the far end would be different. 

Once the first rotor had made a complete rotation, the next rotor
rotated one position (think of the odometer on a car). Or possibly they
moved independently, at different rates. I'm not *that* up on the
details. 

Anyway, the result was that you got a cipher with the equivalent of an
*insanely* long key, that would only repeat after *millions* of
characters. But on the far end, it was easily deciphered by setting up
a machine with the same rotors in the same order, and with the same
starting positions. 

To make things worse, *which* rotors, *which* order, and which starting
positions were changed daily. 

It *is* possible to crack such a cipher given enough messages, and a
*lot* of math. With more work, you can reconstruct how the rotors had
to be wired. Of course, any time a new rotor is introduced, it takes a
while to figure it out. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 04:09:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 99-05-16 03:33:43 EDT, you write:
>
> << Well, that reminds me of one of my "back burner" projects. I'd like to
>  assemble the data on all the *seriously proposed* spacecraft designs
>  from the 1930s on. And convert them to Traveller. Ditto for some of the
>  real ones.
>  
>  The idea is to use them as low TL craft. Heck, set up a system with a
>  minor human race and the right sort of planets, and have the players
>  make first contact about the time they finish the "Conquest of Space"
>  scenario from the 1950s. 
>  
>  And using these as a "base" see what can be done about refitting some
>  of them into starships. My example from last time this came up was a
>  Space Shuttle that had been salvaged from an orbital junkyard and
>  refitted with a small fusion plant and a jump drive.
>   >>
>
> Deadle, Orion, Lightcraft, they would all make for interesting ships.
> You jump into a void (hex with no starsystem) and what do you find? a 
> sleeper ship.

Actually, as several *old* SF stories, and at least one filk song,
point out, a sleeper shiup is a *really* bad bet. Because the odds are
that *some* technological breakthrough will let people get there
faster, even if it's just with a sleeper ship that had a better drive. 

The ship that *I* think would be fun is something like the MV Rolling
Stone from "The Rolling Stones". Nuclear rocket, using hydrogen
propellant. Capable of landing on a planet, but with life support
sufficient for the crew for *long* interplanetary trips.

I intend to have one that someone digs up out of an orbital junkyard
and refits. Throw in a jump drive salvaged from something more modern,
and cut back some on the life support. 

The result could be a tramp freighter that starts out in the fringes
somewhere and doesn't have *have* papers until it gets into the more
civilized areas. 

They'll have an advantage in that they can go for *years* before the
fuel rods need replacement. That'll save a lot. Though when they *do*
need them, it'll cost as much as a normal ships overhaul. I figure they
deserve the break given how underpowered and unarmed the ship would be.

Consider, since it's a reaction drive, they'll be coasting in free-fall
from shortly after leaving planetary orbit (or lifting from the
surface) until they hit the 100 diameter limit. Figure it'll take them
several *days*. 

This also means that they won't get a lot of passengers. 

Still, it'd be a fun ship to kick around in. After all, just *imagine*
the look on the port official's face when he realizes that your ship is
older than the colony!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 01:39:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II

In mail you write:

> While we're on THAT topic, what preys on a Blob? The obvious answer, an
> animal with a built-in psionic shield, seems too predictable.

Why does anything need to prey on them? They could be at the top of the
local foodchain. When they die from disease, old age, or misadventure
(floods, stampedes, lightning, wild fires, etc) they get recycled by
scavengers.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 21:01:23 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)

At 04:10 PM 5/14/1999 -0700, Glenn wrote:
>I had an idea for an adventure along these lines a while ago (while
>living in Boston, where the Constitution is moored, about 10 years ago;
>it was also a great field trip in fourth grade).  An historical warship
>is at the high port as a museum, run by the Imperial Navy.  Maybe it's
>still commissioned, and maybe not.  It should be at some backwater
>world.  The museum staff, expecting war, quietly make the ship
>spaceworthy and bring at least her main weapons online.  War breaks out,
>and the ship is a big surprise to someone -- the Zhodani scouts who
>appear to check out the system, the Ine Givar ground forces who thought
>they'd take over the government in a walk, etc.
That very idea was used by Daniel da Cruz (?) for 'The Ayes of Texas', in 
which the battleship Texas is rebuilt while still on display.


Jimmy Simpson
       nimrodd@fastlane.net

"You can get more with a kind word
      and a 2 x 4,
than you can with just a kind word."
                          -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 19:16:41 -0800
From: Mike Wittek <mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com>
Subject: Spreadsheet for GURPS 

All:
I am looking for a spreadsheet for the VEHICLES book, so I can design
starships and weapons for GURPS: TRAVELLER. I would prefer Corel Paradox
format, but I could use Excel format. Anyone know where I can find such
a spreadsheet?

Thanks
- --
Mike Wittek | Vacaville, California
mailto:mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com | http://www.thelair.cnchost.com
     "Democracy isn't just the best form of government; It's the only
one even remotely worth a damn. Only democracy guarantees that people
get what they deserve."   --Zena Marley

REQ'D DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may
not be the opinion of my school or electronic courier. For that matter,
it may not be your opinion, but deal with it.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 21:33:27 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Base Codes

At 03:30 PM 5/15/1999 +0100, Stuart Ferris wrote:
>I would be obliged if someone could confirm the meaning of the following
>Base Codes:-
>
>C, E, F, G, H, J, P, Q, R, T, U, W, X
>
>I require the text description for new features I am adding to World Builder
>Deluxe.

 From what I could find in the Alien Modules and other places:
A - Imperial Naval and Scout Bases
B - Imperial Naval Base and Scout Way Station
C - Vargr Corsair Base
D - Imperial Naval Depot
E - Hiver Federation Embassy Center
F - Hiver Federation Naval and Military Bases
G - Solomani Naval Base
G - Vargr Naval Base
H - (See second N below)
J - Independent Naval Base
K - K'kree Naval Base
L - Hiver Federation Naval Base
M - Hiver Federation Military Base
M - Independent Military Base
N - Imperial Naval Base
N - Vargr Corsair and Naval Bases (although I have noted to change this to 
an H, I don't know if this was something I did or something official I saw 
somewhere)
O - K'kree Outpost
P -
Q -
R - Aslan Clan Base
S - Imperial Scout Base
T - Aslan Tlakhu Base
U - Aslan Tlakhu and Clan Bases
V -
W - Imperial Scout Way Station
X - Zhodani Relay Station
Y - Zhodani Depot
Z - Zhodani Naval Base

Also listed, but no codes assigned are Droyne Naval Base and Droyne Garrison.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
  Saying, I would know.
  Do not know.
  So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #633
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 17 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 634



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: FW: Jupiter's Supersonic Winds
Mission Log 1.6
Re: Slavery within Traveller
Re: Virus debate
Re: Spreadsheet for GURPS 
Re: Virus debate
Re: Analog Aliens Take II
Re: Kuiper Belters
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Re: Garbage eating aliens
Re: Grounding A Starship...
Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Re: Virus debate
Re: Virus debate
Re: Computer Technology

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 20:00:52 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: FW: Jupiter's Supersonic Winds

In a message dated 99-05-13 10:18:55 EDT, you write:

<< I've received a Galileo-related update from NASA
which explains for all time why there will be
*NO* fuel skimming around the poles of gas giants.
Keep in mind while you're reading the following that
300 miles an hour winds are strong enough to
destroy even hardened buildings. >>

These "winds" are in the upper, extremely tenuous plasma - sort
of like Earth's ionosphere - so tenuous that they would have
no effect on a Traveller starship.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 20:40:21 -0700
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Mission Log 1.6

Howdy ya all.

Just to let you know another night's gaming has come and gone and the
results have been posted to my page.

http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Logbook/1_6.html

Let me know what you think.

Derek Stanley
http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Home.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 23:44:12 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Slavery within Traveller

In a message dated 99-05-16 09:56:17 EDT, you write:

<< What does the use of prison labor in the US imply?  As it pertains to a 
 conversation on slavery, not much.  If your point is that somehow Nazi 
 Germany, the Soviet Union, and the US are morally equivalent, all I can say 
 is go to a good library, do some research on totalitarianism for a few 
years, 
 and then come back so we can continue.  My father and brother both did time 
 in our Federal penal system, and yes, they were forced to perform prison 
 labor.  However, to say that this somehow makes the US prison system into 
the 
 successor to the Gulag or Nazi slave labor camps is to display a frightening 
 lack of knowledge on the history of the twentieth century. >>

They are not the same (by a long shot) but there is that one point that they 
simular.  Altho it is not that big of a deal it is something that caught my 
notice.  The condishions of the prisons and the resons that the prisoners are 
there is much difrent.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 20:58:42 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Virus debate

>What do we know about Virus.
>
>1) It's a silicon based life form.
>
>2) It is capable of imprinting it's pattern on other pieces of silicon
>from a distance.
>
>3) It has been engineered as a weapon and as such is familiar with all
>Imperial methods of virus (hacker created) detection.
>
>4) All Imperial ships and any non-Imperial ship which enters the
>Imperium already have a Virus on board (Deyo Transponder) which is
>plugged into all the ships vital functions.
>
>5) The larger the computer architecture the smarter the Virus is.

I know that this agrees with TNE's description of Virus as a
Cymbeline-derived silicon lifeform. Unfortunately, given its capabilities
in Survival Margin and Vampire Fleets, it can't be true.

1) Virus is able to take over EMP-proof optical computers and DGP's
"organic synaptic" computer cores. While such machines may include
silicon-based components, they are mainly different technologies. In spite
of this, they provide just as good, or even better, an environment for
Virus.

If Virus was a silicon lifeform, why would it compete for the few nanograms
of silicon in computer chips and ignore the billions of tons of silicon in
planetary crusts?

2) Think about this a moment.  Virus is able to propagate itself purely
electromagnetically. Unlike a Cymbeline chip, it is able to reproduce
itself at a distance through communication channels, even sensor scans.
Virus does not reproduce by altering circuit patterns. An uninfected
computer and one infected by Virus are totally indistinguishable, even to
technicians who dismantle the electronics. Sandman in Vampire Fleets was
able to move from machine to machine without sharing a single atom from
each of its incarnations.  Yet it was still accepted as the "same" entity.

Whatever Virus is, it cannot be a physical, material object.

3) It does not follow that if Virus was a weapon it necessarily knows all
methods of detection. Even if it did, this would be of no use against brand
new detection methods.

Moreover, Virus didn't seem to be too concerned about avoiding detection
since it did things like blow up starships and make robots go berzerk.
People tend to notice things like this. Virus' main defense was that it is
essentially invulnerable; physically disconnecting or even reformatting
infected computers had no effect.

4) Ignoring the issue of why enemy goverments would use Imperial black
boxes to identify all their ships, or why a transponder would be "plugged
into all the ships vital functions", virus can't be the Deyo chip. If it
was, every ship would already have Virus on board and would not need to be
"infected" to become active. The billions of other electronic devices
without Deyo transponders would have been immune. This is not how Virus
works. While the Deyo chips may provide an efficient access point to Virus,
it can no more be Virus than an automobile can be human because humans use
them for transportation.

Since computer damage does not totally incapacitate the ship under any
Traveller combat rules, starships must not be completely controlled by one
single computer. Things like drives, weapons systems, and sensors would be
computers in their own right and require being infected separately.
Infected transponders must be only a tiny part of any Virus control.

TNE mentions things like medical equipment, robots, power plants, even hand
tools becoming infected. These items do not have Deyo transponders, nor any
way to communicate with one. Survival Margin suggests Virus was spread by
TNS postings. Not only does a TNS posting have no transponder, it is not
even a physical object. FF&S1 describes Virus-infected bionic implants.
None of these things have any communication facility, let alone
transponders. Yet they can all be infected with Virus.

5) You are correct, every canon source claims more advanced computer
architectures creates a more intelligent Virus. This is very strange if it
is a silicon lifeform. Higher-tech computers are smaller and use
non-silicon technology, yet make better Viruses. Large, low-tech computers
or power engineering equipment would use far more electronics, yet make
worse viruses. The distinguishing feature seems to be raw processing power,
not what the computer is made of or what it's connected to. If this is
true, Virus must be made of processing power and not silicon.


- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 00:00:59 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Spreadsheet for GURPS 

- ----------
> From: Mike Wittek <mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com>
> To: Traveller List <traveller@mpgn.com>
> Subject: Spreadsheet for GURPS 
> Date: Sunday, 16 May, 1999 11:16 PM
> 
> All:
> I am looking for a spreadsheet for the VEHICLES book, so I can design
> starships and weapons for GURPS: TRAVELLER. I would prefer Corel Paradox
> format, but I could use Excel format. Anyone know where I can find such
> a spreadsheet?
> 
> Thanks

AFAIK, there isn't one.  Developing a spreadsheet for the whole Vehicles
system is devilishly hard.

OTOH, writing one that will handle weapon and module design for GT is
pretty easy, but there isn't one approved by SJG.

  
Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 00:30:22 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Virus debate

In a message dated 5/16/99 9:02:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rdhough@home.com 
writes:

<< I know that this agrees with TNE's description of Virus as a
 Cymbeline-derived silicon lifeform. Unfortunately, given its capabilities
 in Survival Margin and Vampire Fleets, it can't be true.
  >>

could virus have started with the cymbeline chips and mutated/changed into 
something else at the imperial research station? This might explain the 
raid/orbital bombardment of cymbeline in Survival margin. SOMEBODY thought 
the chips were virus, or they were just closing loose ends (I also note that 
this was before the release of virus into the fleets in 1130...hmm). Perhaps 
virus is an artificial construct created from the cymbeline chips. I could 
see the virus' "retaliating" against the softlives who played Dr. Mengele 
with the cymbaline chips...

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 00:43:41 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II

In a message dated 99-05-16 13:06:00 EDT, you write:

<< 	I've been told cats have very inefficient digestive systems ... so
 the high-protein food that comes in the front comes out the back
 still fairly high. Hence dogs' fascination with the litterboxes,
 which is why a friend refers to the contents as "tootsie rolls."
 NEVER let yourself be kissed by a dog living in a house with cats! >>

Nor a rabbit, some of what they do they eat, same idea as the cats abd the 
dogs above.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 22:06:38 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Kuiper Belters

Sun, 16 May 1999 14:24:51 +0100, John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>

>The spring issue of "Scientific American Presents : The Future of Space
>Exploration" has an article entitled "Tapping the Waters of Space".
>
>It considers the 3000 estimated Near Earth Asteroids (NEAs) as a huge
>potential
>for water. They contain an estimated 6,000 billion tons (6E12 tons) of water.
>Some are thought to contain as much as sixty percent water.

It might be.  I don't know as much about near Earth objects (or,
in this case, Near Main World Objects :-).

[Some number about them...]

>Even if the figures are out by a factor of a hundred there is still plenty of
>fuel in NEAs.
>
>Kuiper belting might be some way off.

I think Kuiper belt is quite doable, but clearly near objects are
easier.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 01:17:47 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

In a message dated 99-05-16 20:21:57 EDT, you write:

<< 
[Super Mega Snip about Purple/Enigma]
  >>

Damn! Some place I heard that Purple was based on relays,  is this true?  It 
would be an interesting project to build one.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 01:34:21 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Garbage eating aliens

In a message dated 99-05-16 08:08:56 EDT, you write:

<< But it does point out a diversity... "Raw fish!  They eat raw fish!?!?"  We
 eat yogurt and can't come at raw fish?  Brings to mind some haggis... what
 about a nice tongue sandwich?  Ox hearts?  Oooo... brainsssssss...  Looking
 at what we eat, it wouldn't surprise me what an alien might eat at all!  ;^)
  >>
And then you have liver...
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 01:48:33 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Grounding A Starship...

In a message dated 99-05-16 08:08:57 EDT, you write:

<< The PC's ended up rescuing the NPC, but the guy failed moral or something
 after their ship had been destroyed in port, and decided to return to dad
 anyway!  The players enjoyed the trick, but never caught the assassin, they
 enjoyed the game immensely.  The PC's then went on to the Traveller
 Campaign...
  >>
Hmm, maybe he comes back again and again, like Clark Paulmer from JAG.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 01:59:19 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)

In a message dated 99-05-16 20:21:19 EDT, you write:

<< Actually, as several *old* SF stories, and at least one filk song,
 point out, a sleeper shiup is a *really* bad bet. Because the odds are
 that *some* technological breakthrough will let people get there
 faster, even if it's just with a sleeper ship that had a better drive. 
 
 The ship that *I* think would be fun is something like the MV Rolling
 Stone from "The Rolling Stones". Nuclear rocket, using hydrogen
 propellant. Capable of landing on a planet, but with life support
 sufficient for the crew for *long* interplanetary trips.
 
 I intend to have one that someone digs up out of an orbital junkyard
 and refits. Throw in a jump drive salvaged from something more modern,
 and cut back some on the life support. 
 
 The result could be a tramp freighter that starts out in the fringes
 somewhere and doesn't have *have* papers until it gets into the more
 civilized areas. 
 
 They'll have an advantage in that they can go for *years* before the
 fuel rods need replacement. That'll save a lot. Though when they *do*
 need them, it'll cost as much as a normal ships overhaul. I figure they
 deserve the break given how underpowered and unarmed the ship would be.
 
 Consider, since it's a reaction drive, they'll be coasting in free-fall
 from shortly after leaving planetary orbit (or lifting from the
 surface) until they hit the 100 diameter limit. Figure it'll take them
 several *days*. 
 
 This also means that they won't get a lot of passengers. 
 
 Still, it'd be a fun ship to kick around in. After all, just *imagine*
 the look on the port official's face when he realizes that your ship is
 older than the colony! >>

What about the ship from Encounter w/ Tiber?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 02:08:06 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-14 15:15:29 EDT, you write:

<< I might be willing to grant that your desktop box has most of the
 capabilities of a single stateroom workstation -- and as such is 
 well below the threshold of a single CPU point. >>

CPU point?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 02:12:34 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

In a message dated 99-05-14 15:45:59 EDT, you write:

<< Don't know about the Nordon, but AFAIK the Enigma used electrical relays
 and switches to do the actual computing.  It wasn't all clockwork.   >>

I thought it was Purple with the relays and Enigma was the roters.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 19:17:16 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Virus debate

>You all make good points on what I agree is definitely a very arguable
>and controversial point.  Many people don't like the Virus, some people
>do, I admit I like the Virus I just try not to think to hard about it's
>MO because if I did I'd have to work through all the other logic /
>reality problems in the game as well like Jump Drive, Contra Grav,
>Artificial Gravity, Reactionless Thrusters.  Well you get the point.

Hmm, I don't mind the Virus, I just argue against those
who try to say it's anything but a barely believable plot device.

The other things are the same, though it's fun to speculate on how they
work, given they were possible.

>With Virus the point is, it exists in the literature there for we have
>to accept it the hard part for many of us is figuring out the "WHY" and
>"HOW," that's what I think we should be focusing on here not the "why it
>can't" and "how impossible it is."

As far as the game is concernened, I agree.
The problem is that some people try to justify the existence of Virus by
using real world arguments that don't apply.
I don't usually argue against Virus itself (though from a game point of view
it was very heavy handed, and did destroy a hell of a lot of useful
supplementary materiel) but against those spurious justifications.

>What do we know about the computer's of the Traveller Universe?
>
>Realistically not a whole hell of a lot,

Again, realistically, we know almost evrything, because traveller computers
are not very advanced compared to real world computers.

>we're seperated by nearly 5000
>years I'm sure a lot has happened between now and then inspite of the
>Long Night.

Again, we're not seperate by anything like that amount of time, because
Traveller computers are not a realistic extrapolation of 5000 years of
computer technology innovation. Even if computing technology had been
_completely_lost_ during the Long NIght .

>But here's what we do know.
>
>1)  They're still using silicon.

Not even that is absolutely certain. The technology is not specified to that
degree in the literature, except with regards to the operation of the
Cymbeline parasite. It could be gallium-arsenide. Or valves. However I'd
concede it is likley they are using semi-conductors and many of them could
easily be silicon.

Again, if it was a realistic extrapolation I'd expect them to be using
molecular tagging on crystalline lattices, probably carbon (diamond) or even
mechanical nano-tech gates like the ones recently developed by IBM. (A
mechanical gate has much lower power consumption,  and doesn't generate as
much heat. ) And that's if I was limiting myself to "known" technology, it's
more likely that I have no idea what will really be running a computer that
far forward, in fact it's unlikely that the concept of a computer will
exist....<grin>

But that doesn't apply to Traveller.

>2)  They're likely considerably faster, however the tables presented in
>FF&S 1 and 2 really don't bear this out.  They're larger, heavier, more
>expensive and only give you a maintenance modifier that's in the
>neighborhood of three times more effective.

Exactly. So why do you say what you say above about the difference in
technology ?

>Man Intell really fell down on the job didn't they?  "Introducing the PM
>Chip from Intell, sure it's the size of a Buick but think of how much
>faster it is..."  (M is the Roman numeral for 1000 just in case).  Maybe
>Imperial ships use high compression vaccum tubes...

Which is quite possible, as Traveller was designed when big iron still meant
vacuum power tubes at least, and does support the suize and power
requirements.

>3)  They likely can do a pretty good job a faking their way through AI
>but their conversation patterns are likely somewhat limited.

Whereas today we can do far better than that, though I'd say that the
Imperium can do better too, based on Boolk 8: Robots and Striker.

>4)  While they may adhere to the binary code it is possible that
>something else could have been developed in the meantime to replace this
>basic operating level.

This is possible, though unlikely as few efficiencies can be gained by going
into multivalued logics
But if you're trying to imply it won't follow the Turing architecture, that
is _highly_ unlikely.

>5)  They're likely about as closely related to our modern computers as
>our modern computers are to Eniac and Univac.

No,  they're actually much closer than that.
Realsitically, they should be far, far far, further apart than Univac and
modern computers.
But according to the books they're not.

>6)  They're also likely self programming, that is you tell them what you
>want and they create a program based on what you've said.

There is no evidence for this in the literature.

>What do we know about Virus.
>
>1) It's a silicon based life form.

It is true that the original basis for it is. I'm not entirely sure that the
final result is just silicon based, it seems to act more like a compter
program, capable of moving it's higher functions between controlled
processing units, it's more of a programmatic life form by this point, than
a silicon based one.

>2) It is capable of imprinting it's pattern on other pieces of silicon
>from a distance.

This seems to be the case, though the mechanism is yet to be deduced.
(And this also implies it's not purely silicon-based)

>3) It has been engineered as a weapon and as such is familiar with all
>Imperial methods of virus (hacker created) detection.

Not likely at all.  It will only be familiar with those forms of virus
detection Omicron station was aware, of which is likley to be only a large
percentage of those methods. The Imperium is big, very big.

However, that's probably not important seeing as it's not realy a "computer
virus" per se.

>4) All Imperial ships and any non-Imperial ship which enters the
>Imperium already have a Virus on board (Deyo Transponder) which is
>plugged into all the ships vital functions.

No, they have a Cymbeline-parasite-based chip, in other words they have a
"friendly place" for Virus.
It is not, in itself, Virus.

>5) The larger the computer architecture the smarter the Virus is.

A possible assumption, but not neccessarily supported by the literature.

>Does everyone agree with these 11 basic assumptions?

No, as stated above.

>Now if you were a scientist working at research station Omicron how
>would you make it work?

I wouldn't, I'm more responsible than that.
<grin>

>Don't say it can't because remember, at one time you couldn't sail
>around the world because it was flat and you'd fall off, and you
>couldn't break the speed of sound because it was unbreakable and you
>couldn't get a rocket into orbit because it was impossible.

Unfortunately, some things are just not possible, irrespective of how much
innovation.
Psionics is one of those things.  Therefore, it's a useful means of
supporting another impossible thing, such as Virus.
<grin>

>Work on some ideas people.

I think the psionic one is the best. No way anyone can say it doesn't work
that way, and it doesn't  contradict, and in some ways it helps explain, the
documented inconsistencies

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 02:52:24 -0500
From: Warlord <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Virus debate

At 08:58 PM 5/16/99 -0700, you wrote:

>>What do we know about Virus.

>

>5) You are correct, every canon source claims more advanced computer

>architectures creates a more intelligent Virus. This is very strange if it

>is a silicon lifeform. Higher-tech computers are smaller and use

>non-silicon technology, yet make better Viruses. Large, low-tech computers

>or power engineering equipment would use far more electronics, yet make

>worse viruses. The distinguishing feature seems to be raw processing power,

>not what the computer is made of or what it's connected to. If this is

>true, Virus must be made of processing power and not silicon.

>

>


   I probably shouldn't contribute to this discussion, but More advanced computers could be made from silicon, it would just take technology we don't have but can be done (I read too much SciFi). One tech I have heard of is making Crystalline 3D lattices. We presently make our chips in 2D more or less. I forget which book I read this in, but it does seem plausible. Imagine a Processor chip 1cm cubed with the power 10 times the power of a Cray and still be made of Silicon. Then PP 128 of them and you would have one hell of a fast computer with a fairly small footprint the more processors you add the bigger and faster it would be.


 Of course I am not a Computer engineer or anything like it in RL so I could be just reading too much SciFi.


  Later

  J&K Computers         <color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>*            
  Specializing in:                *

</color>  warlord@means.net     <color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>*
Repairs, Upgrades, Installation, Optimizing,  *

</color>                        <color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>*    
      Tutoring and Consulting.            *</color>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:09:41 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

>> >I doubt there will be very many spinning mechanical devices
>> >involved in a TL 12+ computer, and the term "DOS" will be lost
>> >in the mists of history.
>>
>> There are still disks in the TL12 computer on my desk., and underneath
Win98
>> there's still a DOS session.
>
>Your PC can do the math for a multi-parsec hyperspace jump?

Quite possibly. Do you know the required calculations ?

I have done multi-dimensional mathematics that I suspect are far more
complicated than the maths required for jump on a smaller machine than the
one I have now.

And if you had ever read Embedded Systems Journal you'd have read articles
by the guy who wrote the orbital mechanics programs for NASA back in the
sixties which had to run in computers with less than 1K of memory.

Now, you could arbitrarily say that the complexity of the math does require
more processor power than I currently have, but my machine is only a
P166MMX, nowhere near the capability of modern big iron. For that matter, I
doubt very much that the complexity is beyond that of Silcon Graphics
Reality Monster, which in itself is nowhere near today's big iron such as
the TeraFlop machine.

>Tell
>the difference between a starship hijack attempt and a couple of
>foolish passenger strolling uninvited to the bridge?

That's damn simple. A "foolish passenger" wouldn't get anywhere near the
bridge, you have to try vey hard to get that far, so anyone unauthorized on
the bridge gets met with full force.

The difficult thing is telling the difference between a real hi-jack attempt
and two teenage boys trying to get a peek at the purser in her underwear by
hacking the surveillance network. To be on the safe side, I'd write my
program to stun them anyway. They knew the risks when they tried to hack the
system, and I don't have to worry about namby-pamby liberals in the 3I.

>Predict the  location of an evading 6-G target half a light-second away
based
>on its previous pattern of evasion? Simultaneously?  With nary a
>blue-screen-of-death?

Hell, yes, Flight simulators did that on much smaller and slower computers.
And have you ever worked on an anti-radar missile system, or seen what
cruise missiles do  ?

They're all running much less powerful computers than my desktop machine,
(though they _cost_ more) and represent the same sort of difficulty as the
sort of starship programs you're talking about

>Besides, my comment about spinning mechanical devices was tautological
>for Classic Traveller, where holo crystal storage is canonical at
>TL12, IIRC.

You remember incorrectly.
There is no mention of the form storage takes in the TL tables, it merely
says that Model 6 computers are available at TL12.
Holo-crystals are a Star Trek thing, not a Travelller thing.

>> You're still working from an invalid premise. You have to realize that a
>> Traveller TL12 computer is not advanced, and is about same level of
>> advancement as the computer I'm writing this on.
>
>Well, we have another divergence here. I'm familiar with the
>suggestion that the Traveller computers don't do enough for their
>tonnage, and it's probably impossible to reconcile the fact that
>computer cost and size doesn't vary with TL, but your assumption
>that a Pentium II is TL 12 seems bogus.

It isn't if you examine what Traveller computers are able to do, which is
not very much.according to the books.
Yes, I'm aware everybody tends to play that they are better than that, and I
don;t mind if they do, I do the same.

But frankly, nothing I've seen a computer do in a Traveller game _except_
being self aware, and the ever-present "Universal Translator" ( which most
people accept as a neccessary plot device though we always used to play that
it took quite a bit of time to record and  analyse enough of the new
language), is more than a minor extrapolation beyond today's computing
capabilities, although I'm aware that many of those capabilities are quite
astonishing to most people, who are unaware of what is possible.

They can only run a few small programs that are about as complicated as the
sort of program we put into a cruise missile these days.

>Consider for a moment:
>
>- A single purchase of a ship's computer puts a terminal with
>entertainment facilities in every stateroom.

And this is described where ?
There weren't no such thing in any free trader or scout I ever served in.
A few e-texts, and a game of Tetris maybe.

Even so, no-one would be silly enough to run the crew or passengers
entertainment software on the ship's main computer, when it's far cheaper to
buy a nintendo or playstation for each stateroom, even if you have to add a
seperate terminal for the equivalent of email and browsing.

Well, at least by TL12 they'd do that, at TL 8 they'd still be playing
"Adventure" and "net-hack" on the main computer with their  green screens
(which may or may not have an effect on the ships capability, it's highy
likely the cpatain would kick all non-essential users off the net as soon as
they went to alert status) , and at TL10 they'd be using the equivalent of
Atari 800s or Amigas for their entertainment consoles.

>- Entertainment software is below the threshold of counting against
>the CPU capacity, regardless of the number of staterooms on the ship.
>
>- Cutting edge TL8 entertainment software pushes your desktop machine
>to its limits.

No, cutting edge TL12  entertainment software pushes my desktop computer to
it's limits.

TL8 entertainment software is those television ping-pong games we used to
buy in the seventies.

As far as computers are concerned, Traveller TLs equate approximately to
real world years like so :

TL7   = 1960s
TL8    = 1970s
TL10    = 1980s
TL12    = 1990s
TL14    =  2000.....

>I might be willing to grant that your desktop box has most of the
>capabilities of a single stateroom workstation -- and as such is
>well below the threshold of a single CPU point.

Even though it's actually more capable than a Model 6 as described in the
book ?

Frankie

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #634
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 17 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 635



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Doyle's Eels
re: Fleet Ops
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
re: Computer Technology
Re: Gene Bank
Re: Analog Aliens Take II
re: Analog Aliens take II
RealLift(tm) Military Clearinghouse
Re: Computer Technology
Re: FW: Jupiter's Supersonic Winds
Re: Garbage eating aliens
re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
re: Computer Technology
re: Computer Technology
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 05:29:47 -0500
From: Warlord <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

At 09:09 PM 5/17/99 +1200, you wrote:
>
>Now, you could arbitrarily say that the complexity of the math does require
>more processor power than I currently have, but my machine is only a
>P166MMX, nowhere near the capability of modern big iron. For that matter, I
>doubt very much that the complexity is beyond that of Silcon Graphics
>Reality Monster, which in itself is nowhere near today's big iron such as
>the TeraFlop machine.


   As a Ex-simulator technician (for the Air force) I would like to
conjecture that the Tonnage of a Computer is not necessarily the entire
processor. I worked on two types of Sims. One was built in the 50's and one
in the 80's. Each one accomplished the same thing (made you think you were
flying) The computer room for the one built in the 50's took up 30' by 40'
(I may be off on the dimensions) for the Processor and I.O. With the I.O.
taking up a lion share of the space. The computer room for the one built in
the 80's was 10' by 30' for the processor and I.O. 9 large racks (2 being
the processor) and control consoles. 
   So I would think that a Starship would be much more complex then a
Simulator and would a larger proportion for the I.O. And that is what I use
as an example for my players who are at least a little computer Savvy when
they ask "Why is the computer so BIG?"


>TL7   = 1960s
>TL8    = 1970s
>TL10    = 1980s
>TL12    = 1990s
>TL14    =  2000.....


  I would almost agree with this except move each one down a decade and I
would think that we are still going to be at the TL11-12 for a while till
they break the size barrier for transistors, or find a new method for
making them (Orbital factories)

later

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 07:27:41 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

> cience. Still, this provides a parameter of how Computers work in
>  the Traveller setting. What explanation can we come up with for
>  why a Computer skill has to be so wide-ranging?


Why not?  Although I am far from an expert, I know all those areas in
computing, all self-taught.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 00:12:39 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Warlord <warlord@means.net>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Monday, May 17, 1999 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: Computer Technology


>At 09:09 PM 5/17/99 +1200, you wrote:
>>
>>Now, you could arbitrarily say that the complexity of the math does
require
>>more processor power than I currently have, but my machine is only a
>>P166MMX, nowhere near the capability of modern big iron. For that matter,
I
>>doubt very much that the complexity is beyond that of Silcon Graphics
>>Reality Monster, which in itself is nowhere near today's big iron such as
>>the TeraFlop machine.
>
>
>   So I would think that a Starship would be much more complex then a
>Simulator and would a larger proportion for the I.O. And that is what I use
>as an example for my players who are at least a little computer Savvy when
>they ask "Why is the computer so BIG?"

That is a good way of handling the tonnages, and I agree most of the tonnage
should be handling IO,
Most of the space requirements for my desktop are IO, the monitor, the
keyboard, the mouse, all the plugs on the backplane , etc. and as I've
worked on aircraft myself I know the miles of cabling involved <grin>


>>TL7   = 1960s
>>TL8    = 1970s
>>TL10    = 1980s
>>TL12    = 1990s
>>TL14    =  2000.....
>
>
>  I would almost agree with this except move each one down a decade

Which way ? TL10 = 1990s ?

>and I
>would think that we are still going to be at the TL11-12 for a while  till
>they break the size barrier for transistors, or find a new method for
>making them (Orbital factories)

Well, other than that size isn't really the problem, it's heat and electron
speed (there are little lumps of tungsten on the corners of the tracks in
the Pentium to prevent too many electrons from shooting off the track and
failing to "take the corner")  , I agree we could easily hit a plateau in
silicon.

But then we'd just have to start exploring the benefits of on-chip parrallel
processing which are largely untapped due to the difficulty of writing good
paralel software and the lack of a good parrallel OS.

Or one of the many other possibilities.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 08:27:54 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Doyle's Eels

Greetings, All,

I've just finished catching up on the weekend's TML Digests, and I
must profess that I am interested in more info on Doyle's Eels.  Is
there a site where this information is available on the net?  If
not, would anyone be willing to make the info available through
appropriate means? 

Thanks in advance,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:25:51 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

Stephen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
I think that a larger amount of forces will be held back so that the enemy 
can't do the same to you.
>>>>>>>>>>
I think it's more a matter of budget being spent on defense forces (System
Defense Boats, Monitors and such) rather than forces being held back.
If you have more locations to defend, you'll spend more of your naval
budget on defense forces - and the most effective defense forces don't
have jump drives.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 14:34:11 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

At 21:09 17/05/1999 +1200, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:

<snip>

>As far as computers are concerned, Traveller TLs equate approximately to
>real world years like so :
>TL7   = 1960s
>TL8   = 1970s
>TL10  = 1980s
>TL12  = 1990s
>TL14  = 2000.....
<snip>

So what you have is a lot of description about what modern computers
can do versus your estimate of their capabilities in Traveller...
from which you "calculate" that we have TL12 computers?

Surely it would be better (esp. for an SF game) to assume that we are
at TL8, and have TL8 computers, and put the descriptions down to faulty
technobabble or some other misunderstanding?

After all, the TL14 = 2000 scale does not give the computer industry
a lot of room for expansion, unless we get Grandfather computer tech
*before* we meet the Vilani.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 07:41:06 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

>As far as computers are concerned, Traveller TLs equate approximately to
>real world years like so :
>
>TL7   = 1960s
>TL8    = 1970s
>TL10    = 1980s
>TL12    = 1990s
>TL14    =  2000.....

I have no problem with declaring our current computer technology
(1999) being around TL8 or early 9, and extrapolating from there.
Imperium TL tops out at TL15, with the odd TL16 found here and there.
According to your analysis, we're already there, meaning that the 
Imperium, over 3,000 years in the future, has computers which aren't
terribly more sophisticated than what we have now. And if you pardon
my saying so, this is a very ludicrous assumption to make -- in 3,000
years they've developed high-energy beam weapons, interstellar travel,
and other technologies that we're nowhere close to developing, yet
their computers are the same as ours??? I don't think so.

But back to the original intent of my post here. If you say that the
computers of today are TL14, then what TL would you rate the computers
found in, say, Star Trek? (Use the "current" TNG/DS9/Voyager era.)
And why wouldn't Traveller have at least the computer technology
found in the earliest episodes of the original ST series?


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:38:38 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

Warlord wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
   So I would think that a Starship would be much more complex then a
Simulator and would a larger proportion for the I.O. And that is what I use
as an example for my players who are at least a little computer Savvy when
they ask "Why is the computer so BIG?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In High Guard, your computer model acts as a direct modifier to weapons
fire. I took that to mean the tons of a computer included such I.O. 
devices as sensors, scanners and fire control devices.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:49:59 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Gene Bank

Leonard Erickson writes:
<snipped>
"But those variations may turn out to be a good starting point 
for "designing" a gene that's needed to handle something new."

	They may, but you can always keep records of all the 
	variations that you come across (and a bunch more that
	you can generate at random) in a separate file for
	further research later. On the other hand, they may not
	be any better than the 'normal' gene as a starting point
	for further research.

">         Second, some variations have
>         demonstrably no effect whatsoever on the function
>         of the protein coded.

Again, they may be useful after further manipulations."

	Not likely. Genes work by being transcribed into proteins
	that then influence the workings of the organism.
	Typically, such proteins have an active area (which
	must have a very specific structure in order to
	function 'normally') and an inactive area (which is
	essentially bulk and may have a number of different
	structures with little or no effect on the function
	of the protein). There are many changes in the inactive
	areas which are unlikely to have any measurable effect
	on the organism. Even before the genes get translated, 
	there are redundencies in the genetic code such that many
	amino acids (the building blocks of proteins) may be coded
	for in two or three different ways. In these cases the
	genetic code may be different while the protein, and any
	effects that it has on the organism, are absolutely 
	identical.

<snipped>
"> "Well, if you have it from only *one* parent, your red blood 
> cells are only a tiny bit different from normal. But that 
> "tiny bit" is enough to confer near total immunity to malaria!"
>
>         That "tiny bit" is enough to make you chronically ill,
>         but much healthier than you would be if you caught
>         malaria.

Not from what I've read. But I'm not an expert on the subject."

	If you inherit one 'normal' and one 'sickle-cell' gene,
	you will suffer slight anemia because half of your
	hemoglobin will be 'abnormal'. It should also be noted
	that having one of each type of gene does not confer
	immunity to malaria, only a higher survival rate. 
	Refer to "Evolutionary Biology" by D. J. Futuyma, p. 385.


Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 07:52:37 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > While we're on THAT topic, what preys on a Blob? The obvious answer, an
> > animal with a built-in psionic shield, seems too predictable.
> 
> Why does anything need to prey on them? They could be at the top of the
> local foodchain. When they die from disease, old age, or misadventure
> (floods, stampedes, lightning, wild fires, etc) they get recycled by
> scavengers.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 10:14:25 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Analog Aliens take II

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Scout biologist I to scout biologist II: "It eats WHAT!!? eeeeew!"

Scout biologist II gives SBI a *strange* look: "Where did you get your
training again?"

<snip>

Check out "dung beetles" in any decent text.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If both were biologists, Scout II's strange look should be expected.
Now, let's say Scout I is a linguist, astrophysicist, meteorologist,
or other specialist who doesn't spend lots of time looking at the
"icky bits".

Doesn't GURPS have a disadvantage called "Squeamish"?  ;-)

Imagine a linguist, sociologist or other sophontologist who's spent most
of his career dealing with minor races of humanity, and thinks he's
seen it all. Then he's appointed Contact Officer for a mission to meet
a very non-human species, and just plain gets grossed out to the max.

"When humans see my real face, they're induced to perform maternal
behaviours - they regurgitate their most recent meal for me! How can
you resist a thing like that!" - Sam, paraphrased from Freefall

"Alara can't even *eat* Denebian Grub Flambe, much less look
sophisticated while doing so.." - Champions, from Hero Games

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:22:26 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: RealLift(tm) Military Clearinghouse

Hey, all you merc/para-military supply officers!

Just found an *excellent* contact on Boughene for all your troop
support needs. Prices are decent and the company will even airdrop
supplies to your combat troops within 48 hours of purchase.

Guaranteed!

This week's specials are:

1. N.O.S. Imperial made Mk 19 40mm automatic, belt-fed grenade
launchers. CrImp5,500.00 ea. FOB

2. Darrian RGB-6 drum-fed 40mm grenade launchers.
CrImp4,600.00 ea. FOB

3. Imperial Issue M-17 Gas Masks. Factory Vacuum Boxes.
CrImp50.00 ea. Min. Order 100units

4. Zhodani 84mm Recoiless Rifles. New/Light Storage Wear. 100+units
CrIMP750.00 ea. FOB for lot.

5. White & International HalfTrack Vehicles. Good Running Cond. 
60units CrImp6,500.00ea FOB Min. 20units

Check 'em out out:

http://www.angelfire.com/biz/troopsupport/


[What's so cool is that this site is a great template for a Traveller
merc clearing house. What's so scary is that it's a *real site* and so
are the weekly specials listed above; I just switched the national names
to Traveller government entities. And these guys really do guarantee a
supply airdrop to combat troops within 48 hours.]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 07:30:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

On Mon, 17 May 1999, Warlord wrote:

> >TL7   = 1960s
> >TL8    = 1970s
> >TL10    = 1980s
> >TL12    = 1990s
> >TL14    =  2000.....
> 
> 
>   I would almost agree with this except move each one down a decade and I
> would think that we are still going to be at the TL11-12 for a while till
> they break the size barrier for transistors, or find a new method for
> making them (Orbital factories)

Which brings up (maybe again) the question of tech level *capability*
versus *accomplishment*. Certainly an orbital factory is *well* within
the cababiltiy of Terran science at this point, and for many years back,
however we simply have not built one (for whatever reasons).

Brannon

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:48:33 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: FW: Jupiter's Supersonic Winds

Bruce Macintosh posted:
>
>In a message dated 99-05-13 10:18:55 EDT, you write:
>
><< I've received a Galileo-related update from NASA
>which explains for all time why there will be
>*NO* fuel skimming around the poles of gas giants.
>Keep in mind while you're reading the following that
>300 miles an hour winds are strong enough to
>destroy even hardened buildings. >>
>
>These "winds" are in the upper, extremely tenuous plasma - sort
>of like Earth's ionosphere - so tenuous that they would have
>no effect on a Traveller starship.
>
>Bruce

Sheesh. How nice of NASA to leave off a "minor" detail like this.
Thanks for the info, Bruce.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:53:59 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Garbage eating aliens

Stephen posted:

<< In a message dated 99-05-16 08:08:56 EDT, you write:

<< But it does point out a diversity... "Raw fish!  They eat raw
fish!?!?"  We
 eat yogurt and can't come at raw fish?  Brings to mind some haggis...
what
 about a nice tongue sandwich?  Ox hearts?  Oooo... brainsssssss...
Looking
 at what we eat, it wouldn't surprise me what an alien might eat at all!
;^)
  >>
And then you have liver...
- - -Stephen >>

How did that old Kentucky Fried Chicken commercial go?

Oh, yeah!

"Parts is parts"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 15:02:18 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

At 01:27 PM 5/14/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>As I understood it from the artical it was true analog and base 10 like a
>slide rule.  I could be wrong though.  I read about it last year and may
>have forgotten or misremembered some of the details.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>My point was that a completely analog device wouldn't have digital
>markings at all. We add them to help us make better use of the output.
>
>The Analog Aliens I've been thinking of don't conceptualize in discrete
>numbers. If they had a slide rule, it might be marked with a color spectrum
>instead of a series of digits.
>

That is an interesting idea.  How would they transmit a magnatude in their
language though and still be able to do so in a reasonable time?.  How would
the anotate very large values like stellar distances?

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 15:02:29 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

At 11:36 AM 5/14/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Frank G. Pitt wrote:
>> [Russell Bornschlegel wrote:]
>>
>> >I doubt there will be very many spinning mechanical devices
>> >involved in a TL 12+ computer, and the term "DOS" will be lost
>> >in the mists of history.
>> 
>> There are still disks in the TL12 computer on my desk., and underneath Win98
>> there's still a DOS session.
>
>Your PC can do the math for a multi-parsec hyperspace jump? Tell 
>the difference between a starship hijack attempt and a couple of 
>foolish passenger strolling uninvited to the bridge? Predict the 
>location of an evading 6-G target half a light-second away based 
>on its previous pattern of evasion? Simultaneously? With nary a 
>blue-screen-of-death?
>
>Besides, my comment about spinning mechanical devices was tautological
>for Classic Traveller, where holo crystal storage is canonical at
>TL12, IIRC. 
>
>> You're still working from an invalid premise. You have to realize that a
>> Traveller TL12 computer is not advanced, and is about same level of
>> advancement as the computer I'm writing this on.
>
>Well, we have another divergence here. I'm familiar with the 
>suggestion that the Traveller computers don't do enough for their 
>tonnage, and it's probably impossible to reconcile the fact that 
>computer cost and size doesn't vary with TL, but your assumption
>that a Pentium II is TL 12 seems bogus.
>

Actually there may be a good reason for the lack of TL advancement.  We are
already near some pretty severe physical limits (like the speed of light in
a conducter) to processor speed.  It cound be traveller computers have hit
those barriers and not further processor speed increases are posible only
increases in the processor power through parrelleling more processors
blocks.  This would explain the size of treveller computers very well
indead.  Barriers like th espeed of light in the conduct will be very
dificult to overcome and if they are beaten the solutions are not likely to
be cheap.

>Consider for a moment:
>
>- A single purchase of a ship's computer puts a terminal with 
>entertainment facilities in every stateroom.
>
>- Entertainment software is below the threshold of counting against
>the CPU capacity, regardless of the number of staterooms on the ship.
>
>- Cutting edge TL8 entertainment software pushes your desktop machine
>to its limits. 
>
>I might be willing to grant that your desktop box has most of the
>capabilities of a single stateroom workstation -- and as such is 
>well below the threshold of a single CPU point.
>

Some current in production 'super computers' use hundreds of parralell P2s.
Perhaps Traveller main frames will follow this model.  In which case were
are at TL12+ and the traveller computer model sizes are reasonably
believable for there capabilities.  It would take a lot of parrallel systems
to achieve the level of functionallity in traveller with P2.  This would
explain the size to the systems and the lack of TL advancement because of
the light speed limit.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 15:02:41 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

At 02:20 PM 5/14/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Walter Smith wrote:
>
>>Did you ever notice that, in Traveller, the same skill covers
>operation,
>>programming, theory, and repair of computers? Why would that be?
>>What change would have had to occur in how computers work to
>>make a programmer have to know how to rebuild a computer, just
>>to do his job? Or is repairing or rebuilding a TL15 computer never more
>
>>complicated than popping prebuilt modules together?
>
>IMTU computer repair requires electronics skill and one level of
>computer, sensors repair requires electroics skill and one level of
>sensors.  This is to understand the specific operation of the equipment
>in question, but the roll is based on the electronics skill.
>
>Charles
>

Good idea, I'll also let two people work togethere to do the job.  I've
fixed equipment I could not run with the help of a competent operater.  I've
never run a machining center (and several other pieces of heavy metal
working equipment) in my life but I fixed quiet a few.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 15:02:52 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

>2) Technological advance will slow down again and the rate of
>technological progress will go back to the way it was prior to the last
>150 years (i.e. pretty darn slow). 
>
>Option 2 actually looks a lot like Traveller, hmm...
>
>
>-John Snead jsnead@netcom.com
>    
>

Yes, it does, and as far as computers go there is a very real and solid
limit to the speed of processors.  It's call the speed of light in a media.
Our fastest systems are not that far 'current speed of advancement wise'
from that limit.  There is also the problem of gate transition times, we
keep fixing that as it becomes a problem, but we will one day hit a limit
there as well.

These limit could very well explain why traveller computers are as big as
they are for the functionality they provide.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 11:17:57 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Computer Technology

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>The Analog Aliens I've been thinking of don't conceptualize in discrete
>numbers. If they had a slide rule, it might be marked with a color spectrum
>instead of a series of digits.
>

That is an interesting idea.  How would they transmit a magnatude in their
language though and still be able to do so in a reasonable time?.  How would the anotate very large values like stellar distances?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My original concept had all communication based on combinations of
shifting colors, with there being no one sender and one reciever - both
(or all) contribute to the conversation in such a way that it is difficult
to determine the origin of any particular idea or concept. Any idea, by
the time it is developed enough to be an idea, will have been contributed
to, argued for and against, modified and subject to some kind of
consensus before a human could even notice that the idea existed
at all.

The Analogs have an incredibly high-speed communication method,
but do not actually communicate that much faster than humans - 
the information density of their communications are so high that it
slows them down. Kind of like you having a 2600bps modem, and
me having a 56.6K modem. You'd think I get information faster, but
you're downloading text, I'm downloading a high-res video of a guy
reading the text. My communication method gives me far more 
information, and the ability to get information you can't get, but you'll
get simple information and basic data much faster than I will.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:32:10 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
...
>40Cr/ton.  Hmmmmmmmmm.  Book rate for unrefined fuel is 100Cr/ton.  Methinks 
>I'd get it refined if possible to increase its profit margin...

  My earlier suggestion was to have one facility or another be an industrial
refinery; starship L-Hyd by-products are someone elses needed volatiles or
feedstocks. $$$ :>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #635
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 17 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 636



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #601
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #601
GT: First In at my FLGS
Customs (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #601)
TNE Reformation Coalition Manuals
re: The P-word
Re: Analog Aliens
:> was Re: Computer Technology
Re: The P-word
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Space Dock?
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
Re: Virus Debate.
[none]
Re: analog aliens
Re: Space Dock?
Re: Computer Technology

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 12:31:52 -0400
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #601

Busy at work, so I'm behind on my digests, but....

  Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:50:34 -0400
  From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
  Subject: Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?

  > Besides, it's my understanding that a properly tuned
  > airport x-ray machine can see a WATER pistol.  Can anyone confirm this?
  > 

  Consider it confirmed.  I did a lot of airport hopping a while back and
  happened to see th x-ray screen; you can see everything in it.
  - -- 

Not quite everything.  I was taking a robot to a conference, ran it
through the X-ray machine.  Even after I explained what it was, they
were really suspicious.

I finally realized precisely why when one of them pointed at the
harmonic drive and said "What's that?"  Aaah... lots of wires,
batteries, and a switch, leading to something which had enough metal
that they _couldn't_ see into it.

They wouldn't let me on until I actually turned it on and had the
robot hopping around Logan airport.  Then I spent as much time
explaining to the crowd what it was for as I had coaxing the security
personnel to let me by.

Funny, same thing happened returning to Boston. :>

	- Robert

ObTrav:
So what does the backwater customs official do, when someone comes by
with a device that's enough tech levels higher he _can't_ verify that
it is legal, or doesn't carry contraband, or anything similar?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:01:11 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

- -----Original Message-----
From: SRKOALA@aol.com <SRKOALA@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, May 15, 1999 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: Computer Technology


> Seriously though, I'm a big fan of a *lack* of consistency myself. Then
> again, MTU contains biological, dynamically-reconfiguring computers that
> taste like trail mix or a fortune cookie when someone dries them out...
>
>xxxx
>Why?
>xxxx


Because that's what the biological material the computer's made of tastes
like when you dry it out!

Or do you mean the lack of consistency?

I don't like the idea of a canon that stifles the creativity of players and
GMs. I'm also from a more modern school of science-fiction where artificial
intelligence, genetic manipulation, nanotechnology and similar concepts not
only exist but are commonplace... even standard.

> (Okay, I borrowed that from Bruce Sterling, but it adds great color to a
> campaign... "Damn, we're out of rations and we're stuck here on this
planet
> until the impies come to rescue us... Let's cook the comp!")
>
>xxxx
>What if the computer is smart enuff to reconize what there trying to do...
>xxxx


Well, if that computer's attached to a big gun, then the diners had better
worry...

> Then again, I've broken nearly every canon law (intentionally or
> unintentionally) when running games, so maybe MTU isn't a good example. >>
>
>What canon laws?


I don't know where to begin...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:05:36 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #601

In a message dated 5/17/99 9:36:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
ringrose@ascent.com writes:

<< ObTrav:
 So what does the backwater customs official do, when someone comes by
 with a device that's enough tech levels higher he _can't_ verify that
 it is legal, or doesn't carry contraband, or anything similar?
  >>

This is a great time to point out to "hack and slash" PC's that there is some 
situations where Admin 5, Liason 5 or Legal 5 can be useful...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 10:16:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: GT: First In at my FLGS

Well folks, the Nice Man at my FLGS just called to tell me my copy 
of First In was here. Woo hoo!

Terry


_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:35:56 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Customs (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #601)

Robert wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
ObTrav:
So what does the backwater customs official do, when someone comes by
with a device that's enough tech levels higher he _can't_ verify that
it is legal, or doesn't carry contraband, or anything similar?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
He checks his regulations manual, looks over the papers, then 
adjusts his required bribe to match how rich the travellers look. :-)

Seriously, I can see where this would be a problem. A likely solution
is to have a supervisor who isn't from a backwater world posted to the
backwater starport. Either the guy wanted to move to a quiet little
planet for a semi-retirement slot, or he got exiled here for annoying 
someone.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:43:02 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: TNE Reformation Coalition Manuals

In case anyone is collecting:

I stopped by my FXLGS (Friendly Ex-Local Game Store, I have since 
moved) a few days ago, they have (among other things) the three
(first three?) Star Viking books from TNE - Path of Tears, Smash & Grab,
and Reformation Coalition Equipment Manual. They also had the
TNE record sheets book, and some more TNE stuff. The prices looked
pretty good, I think US$9 for Path of Tears, all in shrinkwrap. Email
me if you want contact information, the store will ship.

Apologies to the list if I'm directing people towards stuff that's available
everywhere and anywhere, I don't know how hard the TNE stuff is to
find new.

Walt Smith
smithw@hartwick.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 18:40:26 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: The P-word

 "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net> writes:
>PIRATES? Oh come on, you really don't think there could be pirates in the
>Third Imperium do you? I'll bet that- Hey! Who are you people?! Get out of
>my office! Let me go! What are you doing to my compu-

Splurt! Almost.. saved the keyboard.

LoL!

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 18:48:53 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
>>He asked about Pirates, ohmigawd it's starting again.....
>
>It can't be starting.
>
><checks schedule>
>
>We're still doing Virus, and next up is near-c asteroids.

Is this the alternative FTL drives bit with the wormhole timeslips?

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 19:16:33 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: :> was Re: Computer Technology

Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk> writes:
>Young pup. I refer, of course, to the old Macs which required a `Mac
>cracker' to open them (well, if you wanted to be able to close them
>again afterwards).
>
>I'd also point out that the PCs that were imposed on us at work a couple
>of years ago open in a very similar manner to the G3 PowerMacs.

One of my friends PC's was sold on an easy open Tower case like the G3
towers. Sadly, the manufacturer had failed to put in long enough cables to
allow it to open fully :-/

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 18:46:51 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: The P-word

Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com> writes:
>Nahh, its been proven that Pirates aren't economically feasible in the
>Traveller universe.
>
><smirk>

Nah... it's been proven that economics isn't feasible in the Traveller
Pirate universe.

<grin>

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 18:35:04 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>The Enigma was Electromechanical, FWIW.
>>
>
>The electrical was motors only IIRC.  They just drove the clock work.

The rotor's were manually turned, but they contained wiring which made a
circuit through to create the code. The first problem decoding the enigma
was establishing the paths.

I may go and dig out 'Station X' later.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 14:06:00 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Space Dock?

Help! Would some kind soul please state the URL for the most
current version of the "Space Dock" software/spreadsheet?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 19:40:08 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

At 06:35 PM 5/17/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>The Enigma was Electromechanical, FWIW.
>>>
>>
>>The electrical was motors only IIRC.  They just drove the clock work.
>
>The rotor's were manually turned, but they contained wiring which made a
>circuit through to create the code. The first problem decoding the enigma
>was establishing the paths.
>
>I may go and dig out 'Station X' later.
>


That's odd.  I thought the rotor's were mechanical.  Oh well It would not be
the first time my memory did not pass CRC.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 12:47:24 -0700
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Re: Virus Debate.

Traveller-digest wrote:

> I know that this agrees with TNE's description of Virus as a
> Cymbeline-derived silicon lifeform. Unfortunately, given its capabilities
> in Survival Margin and Vampire Fleets, it can't be true.
>
> 1) Virus is able to take over EMP-proof optical computers and DGP's
> "organic synaptic" computer cores. While such machines may include
> silicon-based components, they are mainly different technologies. In spite
> of this, they provide just as good, or even better, an environment for
> Virus.

I was always under the impression that they couldn't inhabit an EMP Fib computer.  I don't know about the Organic Synaptic's so I can't comment there.  IIRC nothing used pure Fib computers so that's not a huge problem, could be wrong here thought.

> If Virus was a silicon lifeform, why would it compete for the few nanograms
> of silicon in computer chips and ignore the billions of tons of silicon in
> planetary crusts?

One reason I can think of here is intelligence.  Infecting a computer makes your decendents intelligent, infecting a lone chip makes them merely animalistically intuitive.  I'd want my children to be intelligent.

> 2) Think about this a moment.  Virus is able to propagate itself purely
> electromagnetically. Unlike a Cymbeline chip, it is able to reproduce
> itself at a distance through communication channels, even sensor scans.
> Virus does not reproduce by altering circuit patterns. An uninfected
> computer and one infected by Virus are totally indistinguishable, even to
> technicians who dismantle the electronics. Sandman in Vampire Fleets was
> able to move from machine to machine without sharing a single atom from
> each of its incarnations.  Yet it was still accepted as the "same" entity.

I thought that some of the wild strains of the Cymbiline chip could "parisitize" other wild chips forcing them to rewrite their architecture from a distance.  This is true, I beleive that the basis of Virus is silicon, the spark the genesis what ever you want to call it, the Intelligence is in the hardware attached to it.  The more space it has to grow in the more intelligent it becomes.

This is a really good point, at what point does Virus graduate from a silicon entity to an electrical one...  There's a point in there somewhere.

> Whatever Virus is, it cannot be a physical, material object.
>
> 3) It does not follow that if Virus was a weapon it necessarily knows all
> methods of detection. Even if it did, this would be of no use against brand
> new detection methods.

The problem here is no one knew what what going on until it was to late.  This is where canaries and such come in.  Virus can fool the software and hardwear, where it has a problem is with new toys.

> Moreover, Virus didn't seem to be too concerned about avoiding detection
> since it did things like blow up starships and make robots go berzerk.
> People tend to notice things like this. Virus' main defense was that it is
> essentially invulnerable; physically disconnecting or even reformatting
> infected computers had no effect.

Virus seems to have had a time bomb built in, sit quietly for a week or so, send out lots of copies, then make yourself known.  THe problem here was the high mutation rate, the Virus was constantly evolving and changing.

> 5) You are correct, every canon source claims more advanced computer
> architectures creates a more intelligent Virus. This is very strange if it
> is a silicon lifeform. Higher-tech computers are smaller and use
> non-silicon technology, yet make better Viruses. Large, low-tech computers
> or power engineering equipment would use far more electronics, yet make
> worse viruses. The distinguishing feature seems to be raw processing power,
> not what the computer is made of or what it's connected to. If this is
> true, Virus must be made of processing power and not silicon.

The Virus seems to leave it's sentience pattern (personality) burned into the chips though.  Does anyone know how silicon chips are currently imprinted with circut patterns?

These are all damn good points

> << I know that this agrees with TNE's description of Virus as a
>  Cymbeline-derived silicon lifeform. Unfortunately, given its capabilities
>  in Survival Margin and Vampire Fleets, it can't be true.
>   >>
>
> could virus have started with the cymbeline chips and mutated/changed into
> something else at the imperial research station? This might explain the
> raid/orbital bombardment of cymbeline in Survival margin. SOMEBODY thought
> the chips were virus, or they were just closing loose ends (I also note that
> this was before the release of virus into the fleets in 1130...hmm). Perhaps
> virus is an artificial construct created from the cymbeline chips. I could
> see the virus' "retaliating" against the softlives who played Dr. Mengele
> with the cymbaline chips...

IIRC the raid on Cymbeline was after the Solomani had taken the planet.  It would seem Lucan was merely denying the Solomani access to the chips least they have the time to develop a sophisticated defensive system.  I think you're likely right that the Virus began as a chip and changed somewhere along the way into something far more dangerous.  A rogue electronic conciousness, perhaps.

> >You all make good points on what I agree is definitely a very arguable
> >and controversial point.  Many people don't like the Virus, some people
> >do, I admit I like the Virus I just try not to think to hard about it's
> >MO because if I did I'd have to work through all the other logic /
> >reality problems in the game as well like Jump Drive, Contra Grav,
> >Artificial Gravity, Reactionless Thrusters.  Well you get the point.
>
> Hmm, I don't mind the Virus, I just argue against those
> who try to say it's anything but a barely believable plot device.

I like the idea of AI, and lets face it all the Virus is is a plot device to bring about a sudden climatic end to a war which really had no end.  By 1130 there were only two forces who were worthy of winning, Noris and Craig, and neither were interested in the throne.  To have someone else win would merely justify the carnage that had come before.

> >With Virus the point is, it exists in the literature there for we have
> >to accept it the hard part for many of us is figuring out the "WHY" and
> >"HOW," that's what I think we should be focusing on here not the "why it
> >can't" and "how impossible it is."
>
> As far as the game is concernened, I agree.
> The problem is that some people try to justify the existence of Virus by
> using real world arguments that don't apply.
> I don't usually argue against Virus itself (though from a game point of view
> it was very heavy handed, and did destroy a hell of a lot of useful
> supplementary materiel) but against those spurious justifications.

In the process it created a place though where the PC's were suddenly far more important than they were before.  A Diplomatic mission to Alderaan in CT that failed simply ment it was time to send in the Marines and end it militarilly, that same mission in TNE has a completely new outcome if it fails because no pocket empire can afford to throw the Marines in at one planet.  The PC's actions seem to count for something more in TNE, I think that was what the point of Virus was more than anything else, to make the PC's more important.

> Again, we're not seperate by anything like that amount of time, because
> Traveller computers are not a realistic extrapolation of 5000 years of
> computer technology innovation. Even if computing technology had been
> _completely_lost_ during the Long NIght .

They're pathetic, but lets face it Traveller was invented in the 70's and the equipment generation system still has that 70's feel to it.

> Whereas today we can do far better than that, though I'd say that the
> Imperium can do better too, based on Boolk 8: Robots and Striker.

To true, unfortunately the system is somewhat set in stone for us.

> No,  they're actually much closer than that.
> Realsitically, they should be far, far far, further apart than Univac and
> modern computers.
> But according to the books they're not.

This is my problem.  They should be sentient, and if not sentient damn good fakes.

> >6)  They're also likely self programming, that is you tell them what you
> >want and they create a program based on what you've said.
>
> There is no evidence for this in the literature.

But it is a logical suggestion.

> It is true that the original basis for it is. I'm not entirely sure that the
> final result is just silicon based, it seems to act more like a compter
> program, capable of moving it's higher functions between controlled
> processing units, it's more of a programmatic life form by this point, than
> a silicon based one.

I have to agree with everyone on this point, Virus began as silicon, it sure as hell didn't end up there.

> >4) All Imperial ships and any non-Imperial ship which enters the
> >Imperium already have a Virus on board (Deyo Transponder) which is
> >plugged into all the ships vital functions.
>
> No, they have a Cymbeline-parasite-based chip, in other words they have a
> "friendly place" for Virus.
> It is not, in itself, Virus.

That was what I was trying to say, didn't come out right did it?

> I wouldn't, I'm more responsible than that.
> <grin>

I would have thought the people involved in the Manhatten project would have been to but they were just "Boy's with Toys."  I'm sure if you were into AI research and someone gave you this kind of an oppertunity we'd all jump at it.  It's exciting shit.

> Unfortunately, some things are just not possible, irrespective of how much
> innovation.
> Psionics is one of those things.  Therefore, it's a useful means of
> supporting another impossible thing, such as Virus.

This is true but you can make them more plausable.


>    I probably shouldn't contribute to this discussion, but More advanced computers could be made from silicon, it would just take technology we don't have but can be done (I read too much SciFi). One tech I have heard of is making Crystalline 3D lattices. We presently make our chips in 2D more or less. I forget which book I read this in, but it does seem plausible. Imagine a Processor chip 1cm cubed with the power 10 times the power of a Cray and still be made of Silicon. Then PP 128 of them and you would have one hell of a fast computer with a fairly small footprint the more processors you add the bigger and faster it would be.

I hate to use fiction here but What about Biosoft?

DS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 11:47:32 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: [none]

>>Besides, my comment about spinning mechanical devices was tautological
>>for Classic Traveller, where holo crystal storage is canonical at
>>TL12, IIRC.
>
>You remember incorrectly.
>There is no mention of the form storage takes in the TL tables, it merely
>says that Model 6 computers are available at TL12.
>Holo-crystals are a Star Trek thing, not a Travelller thing.

There is a reference to Holocrystals in CT: They are "first widely
available at TL 13,..." [Book 8: Robots, p20, 1st complete paragraph]

While not CT, MT clearly makes the entry of "Holocrystal Storage" for TL 13
[MT Ref's Companion, p28, 3rd Collumn "Computers/Math"]. So holocrystal
storage is DEFINITELY a "Traveller thing".

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:49:04 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: analog aliens

David Brin gives an interesting take on analog aliens in his book
Heaven's Reach (Bantam Books, ISBN:0-553-10174-9 (HC)).  Pages 129-132
talk about interaction between a human and a hydrogen breather.  The
hydrogen breather uses a form of communication that is interesting to
read.  Essentially, the being fractures off parts of itself into a
vacuole it forms inside, and then watches as those bits work out
simulations or conversations based on initial programming it gives them.
 When it is done with the conversations/simulation, it reabsorbs those
bits again.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:12:13 -0800
From: Mike Wittek <mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com>
Subject: Re: Space Dock?

David,
This is the site where I got the Space Dock software from. Goto this
link: http://www.cyberhighway.net/~abatish/sdock.html

"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:

> Help! Would some kind soul please state the URL for the most
> current version of the "Space Dock" software/spreadsheet?

- --
Mike Wittek | Vacaville, California
mailto:mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com | http://www.thelair.cnchost.com
     "Democracy isn't just the best form of government; It's the only
one even remotely worth a damn. Only democracy guarantees that people
get what they deserve."   --Zena Marley

REQ'D DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may
not be the opinion of my school or electronic courier. For that matter,
it may not be your opinion, but deal with it.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:14:29 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

I hope we can discuss this without getting into a flame-fest. I
think we're agreed on the fundamental point that there's a problem
with computer descriptions in CT; I just personally think that
your method of dealing with the problem opens up too big a can
of worms. 

If this is getting to be too much for the mailing list, I'll 
be glad to take it to e-mail.

Frank G. Pitt writes:
> >Your PC can do the math for a multi-parsec hyperspace jump?
> 
> Quite possibly. Do you know the required calculations ?
> 
> I have done multi-dimensional mathematics that I suspect are far more
> complicated than the maths required for jump on a smaller machine than the
> one I have now.
> 
> Now, you could arbitrarily say that the complexity of the math does require
> more processor power than I currently have...

That's what I'm saying: in order to rationalize the computer sizes 
and TLs, we have to assume that the jump calculations which are, IMO, 
the most fundamentally important thing the starship computer does, 
are far more complicated than typical orbital mechanics problems. 

I *don't* know the calculations required, neither does anyone else 
on Earth; but let's pretend for a moment that even the small masses 
in both the origin and destination systems have effects that must be 
accounted for, not only in relation to the ship but each in relation 
to all the others; if you assume it's an O(n^2) algorithm (i.e. time 
proportional to the square of the number of bodies), you can pick 
your n and your proportionality constant such that we can't do 
it in reasonable time today, and we will be able to at a higher TL. 

> >Tell
> >the difference between a starship hijack attempt and a couple of
> >foolish passenger strolling uninvited to the bridge?
> 
> That's damn simple. A "foolish passenger" wouldn't get anywhere near the
> bridge, you have to try vey hard to get that far, so anyone unauthorized on
> the bridge gets met with full force.

Given the deck plans of Free and Far Traders, you're going to lose
a lot of customers that way.

> >Predict the  location of an evading 6-G target half a light-second away
> based
> >on its previous pattern of evasion? 
> 
> Hell, yes, Flight simulators did that on much smaller and slower computers.
> And have you ever worked on an anti-radar missile system, or seen what
> cruise missiles do  ?

That's a very different problem than aiming a laser shot, which can't
be steered in mid-flight. A missile's starting course could be off
by half a radian without severely hurting its chances of a successful 
intercept, as long as it has some flight time to refine its trajectory. 

> >Besides, my comment about spinning mechanical devices was tautological
> >for Classic Traveller, where holo crystal storage is canonical at
> >TL12, IIRC.
> 
> You remember incorrectly.

Check the personal equipment section in (Book 1? one of the LBBs), 
under the video recorder.

> But frankly, nothing I've seen a computer do in a Traveller game _except_
> being self aware, and the ever-present "Universal Translator" ( which most
> people accept as a neccessary plot device though we always used to play that
> it took quite a bit of time to record and  analyse enough of the new
> language), is more than a minor extrapolation beyond today's computing
> capabilities, although I'm aware that many of those capabilities are quite
> astonishing to most people, who are unaware of what is possible.

I agree with you; I'm saying that rather than assume that the 3I
hasn't advanced very far beyond our 20th-century-earth capabilities, 
we should ascribe more power to the computers in Traveller. 

Since their capabilities are sketchily described anyway, I'm very 
willing to assume they can do anything I can imagine that doesn't 
conflict with canon; it seems like you're assuming they can't do 
anything that isn't explicit in canon. 

> >- A single purchase of a ship's computer puts a terminal with
> >entertainment facilities in every stateroom.
> 
> And this is described where ?

It may be mentioned in SOM; personally I wouldn't serve on a small
cramped ship if I didn't have the equivalent of a modern PC in my 
cabin. I may be making a non-canon assumption. To make the computers
in Traveller make sense, I assume that they have all sorts of bells 
and whistles, features that don't make them any better at solving 
math problems, but make them easier to use and useful for more 
things. If you've read Neal Stephenson's _The Diamond Age_, for 
instance, you could consider that one of the secondary duties of 
the TL12+ ship's computer is to act as a babysitter for very 
young passengers - and that it can do so at no detriment to its 
mission-critical features. 

There are always non-critical features that can be added to use 
up any excess CPU capability. As we say in the biz: "Andy [Grove,
ex-CEO of Intel] keeps giving us more cycles, and Bill [Gates] 
keeps using 'em up."

> Even so, no-one would be silly enough to run the crew or passengers
> entertainment software on the ship's main computer, when it's far cheaper to
> buy a nintendo or playstation for each stateroom, even if you have to add a
> seperate terminal for the equivalent of email and browsing.

Not on the main computer, but on the main computer *network*.

Staterooms are small; one terminal for games and word processing 
and mail and browsing makes more sense. For both efficiency and 
security reasons, you'll want to run communication out through 
a single channel, so all the terminals need to be linked together.
With all the terminals linked together and nothing to do through
the week of jump, game traffic over the "ship's LAN" is going to 
be natural, and the LAN's capability will expand to keep the 
game traffic from using enough bandwidth to be a problem. 

Try thinking of the tonnage of a Model/6 as a network of small 
CPUs and the space needed to sit next to them and the space to 
put the peripherals and the storage chips (or zip disks or whatever)
rather than one big metal box. 

Note that modern "big iron" such as you mention above is about
"networking" individual CPUs rather than about a single fast CPU.
Sun's slogan makes sense in Traveller: "The network is the computer."

> As far as computers are concerned, Traveller TLs equate approximately to
> real world years like so :
> 
> TL7   = 1960s
> TL8    = 1970s
> TL10    = 1980s
> TL12    = 1990s
> TL14    =  2000.....

You can't hold me to a conservative interpretation of canonical 
descriptions of Traveller computers if you're going to insist on 
that interpretation of our computer technology. 

It seems to me that in many categories of the TL charts, the 
"revolutionary" developments tend to mark TL steps, while the 
"evolutionary" ones don't. For example, "tank" is shown on the 
TL chart, but there's a world of difference between the first 
tanks of WWI and a modern M1A1 Abrams; it's analogous to the 
difference between ENIAC and a Pentium. The tank development is
about TL5 to TL8; I say that the computer development is 
also 3 or 4 TLs difference, putting us at, at the absolute upper 
limit, TL10 in computers; I'd personally vote for TL9. 

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #636
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Monday, May 17 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 637



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Virus Debate.
Extended Tech Profile of Terra
Car Rental
Re: Car Rental
Re: Slavery within Traveller
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #601
Sector Data
Re: Sector Data
Re: Sector Data
OT: Battlesphere likely
Re: Virus Debate.
Re: Sector Data 
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Garbage eating aliens
Re: Analog Aliens Take II
Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)
Re: Starship Depreciation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 15:52:30 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Virus Debate.

>This is a really good point, at what point does Virus graduate from a
>silicon entity to an electrical one...  There's a point in there somewhere.

It is a point that can lead to all kind of argument and no solution, akin
to the mind/body question in philosophy and psychology.

Here's my short story, once again.

Lucan's scientists start playing fruit fly with captured Cyberlime chips,
trying to bring them to usable intelligence. There are all types of
applications they can think of for these little beasties.

Somewhere along the way, the create a Cyberlime "Grandfather" -- a psionic
chip with powers far beyond that of it's mortal kin.

'Lil Grandfather, aka Virus, becomes an emergent entity, a being beyond the
parts that make it up. It is neither purely hardware nor purely software
nor purely psionic, but all three at the same time.

The scientists say, "Hey, wow, look at that. Now this was unexpected. We
need to study this."

And then the base gets destroyed.

And Virus gets out.

And the Imperium finally dies.

You know, I might just run a TNE campaign after all ...

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 15:47:55 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Extended Tech Profile of Terra

Fellow Travellers,

For those of you who are familiar with the extended tech profile of 
Grand Census or WBH, what would your estimate of our current tech 
profile be, circa 1999AD?

For those of you who may not be familiar with the tech profile, it
should read something like this (the numbers in this example are only 
used to identify location within the profile, not set tech levels.)

12-34567-89AB-CD-E

1) High Common TL
2) Low Common TL

3) Energy TL
4) Computers/Robotics TL
5) Communications TL
6) Medical TL
7) Environment TL

8) Land Transport TL
9) Water Transport TL
A) Air Transport TL
B) Space Transport TL

C) Personal Military TL
D) Heavy Military TL

E) Novelty TL

I don't have the lists of accomplishments used to determine 
individual TL from the extended TL tables here at work with me.  
Otherwise, I could probably come up with it on my own.  From what I 
can remember, I think we're at (and remember, this is only an 
uninformed opinion, mostly guessing here):

85-79898-7778-88-9

So, if anyone does have those TL tables available to them right now, 
what would be your best estimate of Earth's current tech profile, 
circa 1999AD?  If you don't mind, could you also include your reasons 
for making that estimate, as your knowledge in some areas may exceed 
my own, and that would cause some disparity between profiles?

The next goal, of course, after obtaining a current guess at our Tech 
Profile, is to determine a Tech Profile for Terra at the turn of the 
next century, at the point of First Contact between Terra and the 
Ziru Sirka.  Hopefully, we can at least determine some likely and 
playable ranges to work from for that time period.

Thanks in advance for any help offered.  And now, back to your 
regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.

Thanks,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 17:07:01 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Car Rental

I didn't see anything in the new travel policy saying what we're supposed to
do about insurance for rental cars. We should take it I suppose?

Also, has anyone been looking into getting a corporate account at a car rental
place?

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com
               "Software Development Productivity"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 15:21:54 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Car Rental

Ethan Henry wrote:
> 
> I didn't see anything in the new travel policy saying what we're supposed to
> do about insurance for rental cars. We should take it I suppose?
> 

Yes, especially if you know the types of characters my players like.

> Also, has anyone been looking into getting a corporate account at a car rental
> place?
> 

I am investigating this. However, the company is questioning why I want coverage
for air/rafts.



- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 15:20:10 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Slavery within Traveller

>>>> (start of quoted material)
Hmm, the US uses prisoners as a work force, what does that imply?
- - -Stephen
>>>> (end of quoted material)
I think I would view this more as a form of indentured servitude.  The
large majority (if not all) of the people who are in prison for crimes
against other people or the state have freely chosen to enter into a
"contract" with the state.  They contracted that if they were caught and
convicted of a crime, they would loose some of the benefits of society. 
At least in several concepts of criminal law there is some expectation
that the prisoner do some part towards repaying society and/or their
victims for the crime committed.  In this sense, the prisoners have
chosen to work in the prison environment under that "contract."
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 17:58:14 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #601

> They wouldn't let me on until I actually turned it on and had the
> robot hopping around Logan airport.  Then I spent as much time
> explaining to the crowd what it was for as I had coaxing the security
> personnel to let me by.
> 
> Funny, same thing happened returning to Boston. :>
> 
>         - Robert
> 

Next time use Manchester Airport.  I personally hate going down to
Logan.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 14:55:18 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Sector Data

A while back I down loaded sector data for all the imperial sectors
from a site someplace.  One of the headings of this data "PBG" which is 3
digit numbers.  Can anyone tell me what this is?
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 15:12:04 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Sector Data

They're actually 3 single digit fields:

_P_opulation multiplier: 1-9 is multiplied times the UWP pop exponent.

_B_elts: number of asteroid belts. If the mainworld is an X size, then
these are _additional_ belts, IIRC.

_G_as Giants: Number of gas giants suitable for refuelling.

David P. Summers wrote:
> 
> A while back I down loaded sector data for all the imperial sectors
> from a site someplace.  One of the headings of this data "PBG" which is 3
> digit numbers.  Can anyone tell me what this is?



- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 15:18:38 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Sector Data

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_01ED_01BEA078.8A073380
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

P - Population - the multiplier to give you a more precise numbers for =
the system population
B - Belts - the number of planetoid belts in the system
G - Gas Gians - the number of Gas Giants in the system

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: David P. Summers=20
  To: traveller@mpgn.com=20
  Sent: Monday, May 17, 1999 2:55 PM
  Subject: Sector Data


  A while back I down loaded sector data for all the imperial sectors
  from a site someplace.  One of the headings of this data "PBG" which =
is 3
  digit numbers.  Can anyone tell me what this is?
  ______________________________
  summers@alum.mit.edu
  (This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in =
California.)


- ------=_NextPart_000_01ED_01BEA078.8A073380
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>P - Population - the multiplier to give =
you a more=20
precise numbers for the system population</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>B - Belts - the number of planetoid =
belts in the=20
system</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>G - Gas Gians - the number of Gas =
Giants in the=20
system</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>douglas</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>E-Mail: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:douglas@teleport.com">douglas@teleport.com</A><BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.teleport.com/~douglas">http://www.teleport.com/~dougla=
s</A><BR>IMTU:=20
tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls<BR>People are more =
violently=20
opposed to fur than to leather because<BR>&nbsp; it's safer to harass =
rich women=20
than motorcycle gangs.<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:summers@alum.mit.edu" =
title=3Dsummers@alum.mit.edu>David P.=20
  Summers</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:traveller@mpgn.com"=20
  title=3Dtraveller@mpgn.com>traveller@mpgn.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 17, 1999 2:55 =
PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Sector Data</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>A while back I down loaded sector data for all the =
imperial=20
  sectors<BR>from a site someplace.&nbsp; One of the headings of this =
data "PBG"=20
  which is 3<BR>digit numbers.&nbsp; Can anyone tell me what this=20
  is?<BR>______________________________<BR><A=20
  href=3D"mailto:summers@alum.mit.edu">summers@alum.mit.edu</A><BR>(This =
is the=20
  net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in=20
California.)<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_01ED_01BEA078.8A073380--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:47:07 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: OT: Battlesphere likely

Off topic I know, but when browsing looking at some ol hobbies I came
across the following announcement from Hasbro, which may be of interest to
Traveller players.

Basically, the Atari Jaguar has been declared open as a system. This is
great because it means that the game 'Battlesphere' can finally be
released. Battlesphere is a space combat game with ships of varying sizes,
and runs very fast. When i used to be active on the Atari lists for the
Jag, some of the descriptions for the games sounded very Travelleresque.
Can't wait for this one:


Dom

- -------

Copy of PR stuff:
Jaguar declared an "open system" by Hasbro
From usenet: Posted by Les Caron:

Atari Gaming Headquarters is proud to announce that Hasbro has officially
released the rights to the Atari Jaguar Platform! AGH's John Hardie,
currently at the E3 expo, was handed this press release from Mark Goodreau
and Dana Henry at Hasbro yesterday:

###
Beverly, MA (May 14,1999) -
Leading entertainment software publisher, Hasbro Interactive announced
today it has released all rights that it may have to the vintage Atari
hardware platform, the
Jaguar. Hasbro Interactive acquired rights to many Atari properties,
including the legendary Centipede, Missile Command, and Pong games, in a
March 1998 acquisitiomn from JTS Corporation. This announcement will allow
software developers to create and publish software for the Jaguar system
without having to obtain a licensing agreement with Hasbro Interactive for
such platform development. Hasbro Interactive cautioned, however, that the
developers should not use the Atari trademark or logo in
connection with their games or present the games as authorized or approved
by Hasbro Interactive. "Hasbro Interactive is strictly focused on
developing and publishing entertainment software for the PC and the next
generation game consoles," said Richard Cleveland, Head of Marketing for
Hasbro Interactive's Atari Business Unit. "We realize there is a passionate
audience of diehard Atari fans who want to keep the Jaguar system alive,
and we don't want to prevent them from doing that. We will not interfere
with the efforts of software developers to create software for the Jaguar
system."
###
Regards, - Les (Co-editor AGH)
Atari Gaming Headquarters
http://www.atarihq.com

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 18:27:49 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Virus Debate.

...
>One reason I can think of here is intelligence.  Infecting a computer makes
your >decendents intelligent, infecting a lone chip makes them merely
animalistically >intuitive.  I'd want my children to be intelligent.

  A Greek god might have felt differently :)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:33:40 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Sector Data 

> A while back I down loaded sector data for all the imperial sectors
> from a site someplace.  One of the headings of this data "PBG" which is 3
> digit numbers.  Can anyone tell me what this is?

"P"opulation multiplier, Asteroid "B"elts present, "G"as giants present.

This is in MT, btw.

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:50:09 -0500
From: Warlord <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

At 12:12 AM 5/18/99 +1200, you wrote:
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Warlord <warlord@means.net>
>To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Sent: Monday, May 17, 1999 10:29 PM
>Subject: Re: Computer Technology
>
>
>>At 09:09 PM 5/17/99 +1200, you wrote:
>>>
>>>TL7   = 1960s
>>>TL8    = 1970s
>>>TL10    = 1980s
>>>TL12    = 1990s
>>>TL14    =  2000.....
>>
>>
>>  I would almost agree with this except move each one down a decade
>
>Which way ? TL10 = 1990s ?
>

 Well actually I was thinking of it like this;

TL5 = 1950 (Analog computers used in the first rockets for guidance)
TL6 = 1960 (The use of the first Discrete computers used to get men on the
moon)
TL7 = 1970 (Transistorized [solid state] computers become the norm)
TL8 = 1980 (Everything has to have some Micro computer device built in) 
            Multi Processing is more prevalent
TL9 = 1990 (Multi layering Multi and Fiber optics becomes Useable)
            Quantum chips and Protein devices are being developed
TL10= 20?? (Who really knows cause that is still in the future)
            But going by the trends today I see very slow progression until 
            software catches up with the Hardware.

  Now I base this time line on my limited knowledge of Computer history and
my Experience in the military. Oh BTW this also pertains only to Main
Frames. For Micro Computers (PC's) they emerge during the 70's at TL6 and
are currently at about TL8 IMHO. After working on large mainframes and
Mini's and my experience with PC's there just is no comparison for the Raw
number crunching of a Mainframe. I would like to see a PIII desktop try and
control an I.O. that does a little over 26 billion operations a second to
make a class 'A' simulator fly. (Hint some operations from the I.O. took 4
64 bit words to do one thing) And it was built in the 70s

>>and I
>>would think that we are still going to be at the TL11-12 for a while  till
>>they break the size barrier for transistors, or find a new method for
>>making them (Orbital factories)
>
>Well, other than that size isn't really the problem, it's heat and electron
>speed (there are little lumps of tungsten on the corners of the tracks in
>the Pentium to prevent too many electrons from shooting off the track and
>failing to "take the corner")  , I agree we could easily hit a plateau in
>silicon.

  I have always hated migrating electrons. :) 

>
>But then we'd just have to start exploring the benefits of on-chip parrallel
>processing which are largely untapped due to the difficulty of writing good
>paralel software and the lack of a good parrallel OS.

   I think some of the ones in development use multi layered MP's with some
kind of liquid to bleed off heat (like a radiator) from the separate
processors. Again I might be mixing me facts due to reading too much SciFi.


>
>Or one of the many other possibilities.
>
>Frankie
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:17:39 -0500
From: Warlord <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

At 03:02 PM 5/17/99 +0000, you wrote:
>At 11:36 AM 5/14/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>Frank G. Pitt wrote:
>>> [Russell Bornschlegel wrote:]
>>>
>>
>>Your PC can do the math for a multi-parsec hyperspace jump? Tell 
>>the difference between a starship hijack attempt and a couple of 
>>foolish passenger strolling uninvited to the bridge? Predict the 
>>location of an evading 6-G target half a light-second away based 
>>on its previous pattern of evasion? Simultaneously? With nary a 
>>blue-screen-of-death?

  I knew if I looked hard enough I would find it. In challenge #71 there is
this cool article about Laser combat in space. Gives an Idea of the
complexity of the software. I do belive one of todays Top PC's could
operate a single weapon, but not well.





>>
>>Besides, my comment about spinning mechanical devices was tautological
>>for Classic Traveller, where holo crystal storage is canonical at
>>TL12, IIRC. 
>>
>>> You're still working from an invalid premise. You have to realize that a
>>> Traveller TL12 computer is not advanced, and is about same level of
>>> advancement as the computer I'm writing this on.
>>
>>Well, we have another divergence here. I'm familiar with the 
>>suggestion that the Traveller computers don't do enough for their 
>>tonnage, and it's probably impossible to reconcile the fact that 
>>computer cost and size doesn't vary with TL, but your assumption
>>that a Pentium II is TL 12 seems bogus.
>>
>
>Actually there may be a good reason for the lack of TL advancement.  We are
>already near some pretty severe physical limits (like the speed of light in
>a conducter) to processor speed.  It cound be traveller computers have hit
>those barriers and not further processor speed increases are posible only
>increases in the processor power through parrelleling more processors
>blocks.  This would explain the size of treveller computers very well
>indead.  Barriers like th espeed of light in the conduct will be very
>dificult to overcome and if they are beaten the solutions are not likely to
>be cheap.
>
>>Consider for a moment:
>>
>>- A single purchase of a ship's computer puts a terminal with 
>>entertainment facilities in every stateroom.
>>
>>- Entertainment software is below the threshold of counting against
>>the CPU capacity, regardless of the number of staterooms on the ship.
>>
>>- Cutting edge TL8 entertainment software pushes your desktop machine
>>to its limits. 
>>
>>I might be willing to grant that your desktop box has most of the
>>capabilities of a single stateroom workstation -- and as such is 
>>well below the threshold of a single CPU point.
>>
>
>Some current in production 'super computers' use hundreds of parralell P2s.
>Perhaps Traveller main frames will follow this model.  In which case were
>are at TL12+ and the traveller computer model sizes are reasonably
>believable for there capabilities.  It would take a lot of parrallel systems
>to achieve the level of functionallity in traveller with P2.  This would
>explain the size to the systems and the lack of TL advancement because of
>the light speed limit.
>
>Charles L.
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:54:58 -0500
From: Warlord <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

At 07:30 AM 5/17/99 -0700, you wrote:
>On Mon, 17 May 1999, Warlord wrote:
>
>> >TL7   = 1960s
>> >TL8    = 1970s
>> >TL10    = 1980s
>> >TL12    = 1990s
>> >TL14    =  2000.....
>> 
>> 
>>   I would almost agree with this except move each one down a decade and I
>> would think that we are still going to be at the TL11-12 for a while till
>> they break the size barrier for transistors, or find a new method for
>> making them (Orbital factories)
>
>Which brings up (maybe again) the question of tech level *capability*
>versus *accomplishment*. Certainly an orbital factory is *well* within
>the cababiltiy of Terran science at this point, and for many years back,
>however we simply have not built one (for whatever reasons).
>

  Shoot I remember being a kid and watching the men walking on the moon and
hearing Walter Kronkite (or one of those anchors) reporting that we would
have a permanent moon base in the late 80's, and have landed men on mars also.


- -- 
 \        /  /\   |'''\  |     /'''\  |'''\  |''\ 
  \  /\  /  /__\  |___|  |    (     ) |___|  |   )
   \/  \/  /    \ |   \  |___  \___/  |   \  |__/ 
      When you can't Conquer them DESTROY them.
           warlord@emerado.polaristel.net
                warlord@means.net             

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:19:52 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Garbage eating aliens

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 04:27 AM 5/15/99 EDT, you wrote:
> 
> > Another alien that this discussion brings to mind is a recurring fellow
> >from the pages of Analog SF. Food isn't "edible" until it's what we
> >consider rotten:
> >  "I left a head of lettuce in the fridge for two months, just for you."
> > "Aww, you shouldn't have."

Ah, yes.  "To Victor Go the Spoils."

<<snip>>
> 
> Of course, I always wonder about the first guy to try beer.  "Hey guys!
> This storage jar of grain leaked, and it's now filled with a thick, syrupy
> foaming water.. let's drink it!"

I always figured that the _second_ guy to drink fermented beverages was
far braver than the first.  Imagine watching someone get drunk, without
any clue as to waht was happening, and then volunteering to try it
yourself.

<<snip sig>>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:23:09 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II

Erwin Fritz wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> The Blob's brain would be structured very differently that our brain.
> Most of its internal workings would be geared toward the projection of
> psionics. That, in itself, might be the stem of an adventure:
> 
> The adventurers are hired to capture, quietly, one of these creatures
> (who live on a Red-zoned world) for a mysterious person (who is really
> an agent of either the Psionics Institute or the Imperial Army).
> Naturally, the Blobs are able to recognize when they are being attacked,
> and can defend themselves using their powers.
> 
> While we're on THAT topic, what preys on a Blob? The obvious answer, an
> animal with a built-in psionic shield, seems too predictable.
> 
I would think that the best answer would be an organism whose nervous
system was too simple to be vulnerable to psionics.  No psi shield
required.

<<snip>>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 20:24:31 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)

> From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>

> At 04:10 PM 5/14/1999 -0700, Glenn wrote:
> >I had an idea for an adventure along these lines a while ago (while

> That very idea was used by Daniel da Cruz (?) for 'The Ayes of Texas', in 
> which the battleship Texas is rebuilt while still on display.

Is it a novel?  Written when?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:47:09 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

Frank G. Pitt wrote:
> 
> >Ships are a better model for starships than automobiles, IMO.
> >However, ships...like houses do deteriate over time becoming worth
> >less (as opposed to worthless) even if they are maintained.  I'd say
> >the useful life should be measured in decades, but probably not
> >centuries.
> 
> Canon states useful life as bing at least a century, especially for military
> ships. Look at the Kinunnir lists, for example.

This is why I postulated that the comparative life span of a vehicle, be
it automobile or starship, can be based on the length of the average
loan repayment.  An average 40 year old starship would depreciate about
as much as an average late-20th-Century automobile that is five years
old.  Assuming proper maintenance (which would increase as the vehicle
ages), there is no problem with a vehicle being quite serviceable four
or five payment-lengths after the original loan has been paid off. 
However, the vehicle would still lose value, perhaps on a declining
curve.  Of course, vehicles which have benefited from superior
maintenance will lose less value.  Similarly, well-built vehicles will
also retain their value longer, as will "collector" vehicles.

<<snip>>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #637
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 18 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 638



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)
Re: Garbage eating aliens
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Slavery within Traveller
Re: Sector Data
Re:   Car Rental
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #601
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Analog Aliens Take II
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Analog Aliens Take II
Re: Analog Aliens Take II
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Fleet Ops
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Analog Aliens
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Analog Aliens Take II
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel...
Re: You might not belive this...
Re: Insignia and Emblems
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:59:03 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)

Walter Smith wrote:
> 
><<snip>>
> 
> The spare freight lying around the starport is stuff that will go on the next
> available megacorp freighter, probably in a week or less - a free trader crew
> that can offer a possible save of a few days travel time can contract to carry
> it, but (due to the less reliable nature of the transportation) won't be able to
> charge a premium for saving the cargo owner some time. The megacorps
> lose more cargo to clerical errors than they do to tramp freighters, so
> they generally don't worry about the independent operators - besides,
> some of these tramp freighter captains are good at starting new markets
> for the megacorp to buy or bully their way into.

In addition, the tramp freighters provide a good source of trained
personnel for the megacorp shipping lines.  After all, a veteran of
tramp freighters is probably much more well-rounded than your average
megacorp exec, and his/her/its training has not cost the megacorp a
decicredit.  Besides, the chance to become skilled enough that it
becomes worth a megacorp's effort to buy a trader out is a powerful
incentive for that trader to learn and grow in skill and power.  Sort of
like the sought-after end state of the prototypical "Pocket Empires"
campaign:  become sufficiently powerful that integration into the
Imperium is on _your_ terms.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 00:09:32 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Garbage eating aliens

In a message dated 99-05-17 10:58:17 EDT, you write:

<< And then you have liver...
 - -Stephen >>
 
 How did that old Kentucky Fried Chicken commercial go?
 
 Oh, yeah!
 
 "Parts is parts"
  >>

This is before or after eating stomic?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 00:19:04 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-17 05:19:55 EDT, you write:

<< Quite possibly. Do you know the required calculations ?
 
 I have done multi-dimensional mathematics that I suspect are far more
 complicated than the maths required for jump on a smaller machine than the
 one I have now.
 
 And if you had ever read Embedded Systems Journal you'd have read articles
 by the guy who wrote the orbital mechanics programs for NASA back in the
 sixties which had to run in computers with less than 1K of memory.
 
 Now, you could arbitrarily say that the complexity of the math does require
 more processor power than I currently have, but my machine is only a
 P166MMX, nowhere near the capability of modern big iron. For that matter, I
 doubt very much that the complexity is beyond that of Silcon Graphics
 Reality Monster, which in itself is nowhere near today's big iron such as
 the TeraFlop machine. >>

If you look at the table in T4 any computer can run any programe, it just 
takes a LONG time to do so.  What race in the critter from page 91 with 
melted head?  Also is there a varashion of the research rules for T4?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 00:47:46 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Slavery within Traveller

In a message dated 99-05-17 17:31:05 EDT, you write:

<< I think I would view this more as a form of indentured servitude.  The
 large majority (if not all) of the people who are in prison for crimes
 against other people or the state have freely chosen to enter into a
 "contract" with the state.  They contracted that if they were caught and
 convicted of a crime, they would loose some of the benefits of society. 
 At least in several concepts of criminal law there is some expectation
 that the prisoner do some part towards repaying society and/or their
 victims for the crime committed.  In this sense, the prisoners have
 chosen to work in the prison environment under that "contract."
 - Joseph >>

Your right.  It costs a LOT of money to house a prisoner, you might as well 
get some money out of them, as you say: Its part of the contract.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:56:13 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Sector Data

Where did you get this data?

"David P. Summers" wrote:

> A while back I down loaded sector data for all the imperial sectors
> from a site someplace.  One of the headings of this data "PBG" which is 3
> digit numbers.  Can anyone tell me what this is?
> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu
> (This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:59:51 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:   Car Rental

> Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 17:07:01 -0400
> From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
> 
> I didn't see anything in the new travel policy saying what we're supposed
> to do about insurance for rental cars. We should take it I suppose?
> 
> Also, has anyone been looking into getting a corporate account at a car
> rental place?

Ethan, this was forwarded to me; here's a quick reply:

If you'll just look in the Naasirka operating manual, you'll find that
you're supposed to take liability and collision insurance on your rented
vehicles only if you're using your own credit card and if that card does
not also provide that coverage.  If you're using a card issued to you by
Naasirka or any operating subsidiary, appropriate insurance is provided
by the credit card company (typically NaasirkaCard, a wholly-owned
subsidiary of Naasirka LIC, but Naasirka Express may be issued to
personnel in the Solomani Rim).  If your own card already provides
coverages, don't pay for duplicative coverage; Naasirka won't pay for
it.  

Naasirka's practice is to maintain corporate accounts with the largest
purveyors of rental equipment and vehicles in each sector.  There is
generally a "trickle-down" effect whereby subsector and planetary
companies routinely extend credit and "regular customer" perquisites to
accounts with sector-wide rental companies.  Again, check the manual for
your division and the region of the Imperium in which you're planning to
travel.

If you have business travel outside the Imperium, see me.

- --Gani

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:14:39 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-17 13:06:39 EDT, you write:

<< > Seriously though, I'm a big fan of a *lack* of consistency myself. Then
 > again, MTU contains biological, dynamically-reconfiguring computers that
 > taste like trail mix or a fortune cookie when someone dries them out...
 >
 >xxxx
 >Why?
 >xxxx
 
 
 Because that's what the biological material the computer's made of tastes
 like when you dry it out!

xxxx
not quite
xxxx 

 Or do you mean the lack of consistency?

xxxx
yes
xxxx
 
 I don't like the idea of a canon that stifles the creativity of players and
 GMs. I'm also from a more modern school of science-fiction where artificial
 intelligence, genetic manipulation, nanotechnology and similar concepts not
 only exist but are commonplace... even standard.

xxxx
it is, but then a player says: I want a patrol cruiser.  Dumps a can of 
nanits on the ground, comes back in a few days and a patrol cruiser is there, 
not much for an RPG, unless they get out of control...like one story I know.
xxxx 

 > (Okay, I borrowed that from Bruce Sterling, but it adds great color to a
 > campaign... "Damn, we're out of rations and we're stuck here on this
 planet
 > until the impies come to rescue us... Let's cook the comp!")
 >
 >xxxx
 >What if the computer is smart enuff to reconize what there trying to do...
 >xxxx
 
 
 Well, if that computer's attached to a big gun, then the diners had better
 worry...

xxxx
yes the should.
xxxx
 
 > Then again, I've broken nearly every canon law (intentionally or
 > unintentionally) when running games, so maybe MTU isn't a good example. >>
 >
 >What canon laws?
 
 
 I don't know where to begin...
  >>
I think someone else covered them.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:11:11 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #601

In a message dated 99-05-17 12:36:10 EDT, you write:

<<   Consider it confirmed.  I did a lot of airport hopping a while back and
   happened to see th x-ray screen; you can see everything in it.
   - -- 
 
 Not quite everything.  I was taking a robot to a conference, ran it
 through the X-ray machine.  Even after I explained what it was, they
 were really suspicious.
 
 I finally realized precisely why when one of them pointed at the
 harmonic drive and said "What's that?"  Aaah... lots of wires,
 batteries, and a switch, leading to something which had enough metal
 that they _couldn't_ see into it.
 
 They wouldn't let me on until I actually turned it on and had the
 robot hopping around Logan airport.  Then I spent as much time
 explaining to the crowd what it was for as I had coaxing the security
 personnel to let me by.
 
 Funny, same thing happened returning to Boston. :> >>

Can you say any more about the robot?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:22:25 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 

> In addition, the tramp freighters provide a good source of trained
> personnel for the megacorp shipping lines.  After all, a veteran of
> tramp freighters is probably much more well-rounded than your average
> megacorp exec, and his/her/its training has not cost the megacorp a
> decicredit.  Besides, the chance to become skilled enough that it
> becomes worth a megacorp's effort to buy a trader out is a powerful
> incentive for that trader to learn and grow in skill and power.  Sort of
> like the sought-after end state of the prototypical "Pocket Empires"
> campaign:  become sufficiently powerful that integration into the
> Imperium is on _your_ terms.

Strange...  Merchant Prince characters are usually ex-megacorp vets who enter 
the game as crew on tramp freighters, not the other way around...

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:40:32 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In a message dated 99-05-14 12:59:38 EDT, you write:

<< The computer shop Kirsten and I use has a display of hard drives in their
 lobby.  Going from this forty pound monstrosity with a whopping 10 meg to
 their most recent addition, and drive the size of a Walkman with some
 obscene number of gigabytes.  Makes you appreciate progress. >>

And resent if for not being here sooner.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:45:00 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II

In a message dated 99-05-14 13:32:52 EDT, you write:

<< Oh yeah....but just imagine the Commodore in charge of the interdiction
 squadron.
 
 "How far from the planet can these Lumps play with the switches and
 levers in our Engine Rooms? Line of sight? You're sure of this?" >>

Hide behind a moon, no weight, they'll just move the moon...
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:45:46 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-14 13:38:27 EDT, you write:

<< My point was that a completely analog device wouldn't have digital
 markings at all. We add them to help us make better use of the output.
 
 The Analog Aliens I've been thinking of don't conceptualize in discrete
 numbers. If they had a slide rule, it might be marked with a color spectrum
 instead of a series of digits. >>

How would they store data?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:46:50 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II

In a message dated 99-05-14 13:51:09 EDT, you write:

<< Larry Niven detailed a race like this in Known Space's "Grogs", IIRC. I 
always
 meant to introduce them to my Traveller universe >>

A simular one can be found in Startrek: Probe
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:48:11 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II

In a message dated 99-05-14 14:18:33 EDT, you write:

<< Ooh I'd forgotten all about them. Didn't the Grogs have this really fast
 whiplike tongue, too?
 
 The Lumps aren't sessile, I'm visualizing something more like mobile
 blobs of something..probably vertebrates of some sort, given the size
 I'm imagining, which is .5 to 1 meter long and .25 to .5 meter wide and
 about .2 high, with a mouth at one end.
 
 Hmmmm...I think I have a Contact article coming on. Mind if I do these
 guys, Walter? You can have the Squids or your Eyeball guys...these races
 would be natural allies, and probably get along like
 gangbusters...hmmm...the Analog Empire.  >>

Virus prof.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:52:23 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-14 14:51:03 EDT, you write:

<< >I've seen some SF universes - some Heinlein, for example - where
 >computer "programmers" were more like modern-day psychologists.
 >The computer system was so complex that these "Cyberpsychs"
 >would do more teaching and reasoning with than programming. 
 >This is too far for Traveller, but I thought it was an interesting ide >>

There was an Asomive (I know I got the spelling wrong) that has something 
simular, were people do all of there training by tapes, one person askes the 
wrong question: Who made the tapes?  Quite interesting, really, something 
that might make a neat Traveller element on some planet, altho how you coult 
inigrate it to a campain I can't figure out, unless the person comes from 
that planet.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:54:58 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-17 06:34:17 EDT, you write:

<<   I would almost agree with this except move each one down a decade and I
 would think that we are still going to be at the TL11-12 for a while till
 they break the size barrier for transistors, or find a new method for
 making them (Orbital factories) >>

Quantom Computers.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:58:44 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-17 07:24:39 EDT, you write:

<< Why not?  Although I am far from an expert, I know all those areas in
 computing, all self-taught.
 --  >>
Well, it takes difrent skills to program (which I do, sometimes) repair (been 
there done that) build (only if upgrading counts) and they need difrent 
skills, the building and repair (for a TL-9, which is were we are at) is the 
same, part A into slot B.  Programing is much difrent, you need to know that 
everything does, with the programing language.  I would say that to repair or 
build a computer you need the mechanic skill and the computer skill (and pass 
both on average) to program a computer, the rules are already there.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 02:00:23 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

In a message dated 99-05-17 09:36:21 EDT, you write:

<< I think it's more a matter of budget being spent on defense forces (System
 Defense Boats, Monitors and such) rather than forces being held back.
 If you have more locations to defend, you'll spend more of your naval
 budget on defense forces - and the most effective defense forces don't
 have jump drives. >>

right, good point, same result.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 02:01:23 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-17 09:38:34 EDT, you write:

<< After all, the TL14 = 2000 scale does not give the computer industry
 a lot of room for expansion, unless we get Grandfather computer tech
 *before* we meet the Vilani. >>

Grandfather computer tech?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 02:03:27 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-17 09:46:12 EDT, you write:

<< But back to the original intent of my post here. If you say that the
 computers of today are TL14, then what TL would you rate the computers
 found in, say, Star Trek? (Use the "current" TNG/DS9/Voyager era.)
 And why wouldn't Traveller have at least the computer technology
 found in the earliest episodes of the original ST series? >>

I think someplace I saw something that said TL 14 Voice Controled.  We have 
that now (sort of, needs work) so I would say TL14, but then you have Data...
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 02:11:27 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

In a message dated 99-05-17 14:48:47 EDT, you write:

<< Is this the alternative FTL drives bit with the wormhole timeslips? >>

Ahh, simple, move ONE end of the worm hole at near C and use the time dif to 
travel back in time.  The problem comes up of how to go though the worm hole 
with out colapsing it,  you have to negat all grav forces trying to bring the 
worm hole in on its self.  once you get this fixed and have some way to move 
the worm hole at near C you have you self a time machine, there are, how 
ever, easyer ways.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 02:28:25 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-14 11:40:46 EDT, you write:

<< Maybe program modules will just be hard coded ROM in a convient package.
 That is a posibility but either way there will be an operating system to
 interface with what ever form portable storage takes. >>

Like the little electronics boards that people get when there kids?  you have 
a speaker, a power supply, a voltage regulater, a light, a swich, and a few 
other things and you can make all sorts of stuff, (alto I perfer to use a 
breadboard) this is how I see the computers in Startrek working (alto there 
are a few times when it does not work that way)
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 02:31:29 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-14 11:39:25 EDT, you write:

<< Well, maybe this will help in one area.
 
 We are today building molecular machines. Gears and motors the size of
 single cells.  Perhaps that race would develop a clock work 'chip' with
 meshing gears to replace the input and output pins on electronic chips.  At
 this scale the diference engine could be built into a wrist watch.
 
 Also if this culture does not see black and white then no question will be
 answered yes or no, only 'that appears to be the way it is in this time and
 place under these conditions as observered by those present'.  They would be
 past masters of the Hysenberg uncurtainty prenciple!  Working out a trade
 deal could take a while through translaters as all the conditions would have
 to be worked out including a 'if everything goes real Murphy on us'
 condition.  Their contracts would be interesting.  Their lawyers scary!
 Degrees of guilt would be a major part of their legal system. >>

Think about a Marrage Agreement, 6^10 pages (or something like that) 
[60,466,176] 
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 02:35:27 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II

In a message dated 99-05-17 23:27:19 EDT, you write:

<< I would think that the best answer would be an organism whose nervous
 system was too simple to be vulnerable to psionics.  No psi shield
 required. >>

Like a cockroach, I think that they are hard wired.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 02:34:41 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-17 23:23:42 EDT, you write:

<<   Shoot I remember being a kid and watching the men walking on the moon and
 hearing Walter Kronkite (or one of those anchors) reporting that we would
 have a permanent moon base in the late 80's, and have landed men on mars 
also. >>

That what happens when polyticks gets in the way.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:46:03 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
<<snips description of why megacorps would want to hire ex-tramp
freighter crewbeings>>
> 
> Strange...  Merchant Prince characters are usually ex-megacorp vets who enter
> the game as crew on tramp freighters, not the other way around...
> 
Well, sure.  After all, Book 7 was designed to create player
characters.  Not much excitement in playing a "suit."  I've only seen
one player in my life who _wanted_ to play a megacorp executive.  He
played the local Instellarms factor....CHA-CHINGG!!  (BTW, the player in
question majored in accounting, and is currently employed by one of the
"big boys" in that field.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:51:34 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-05-14 12:59:38 EDT, you write:
> 
> << The computer shop Kirsten and I use has a display of hard drives in their
>  lobby.  Going from this forty pound monstrosity with a whopping 10 meg to
>  their most recent addition, and drive the size of a Walkman with some
>  obscene number of gigabytes.  Makes you appreciate progress. >>

Ah, the good old days, when TRS-80s roamed the Earth, and cassette
players were the storage medium of choice.  These young whippersnappers
today don't realize how easy they have it....
> 
> And resent if for not being here sooner.
> -Stephen

Don't be greedy, Stephen, or you might find yourself having to learn to
program in FORTRAN.  On a mainframe.  Using punch cards.  (Been there,
done that, forgot most all of it since 1980.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 03:07:32 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

> SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > In a message dated 99-05-14 12:59:38 EDT, you write:
> > 
> > << The computer shop Kirsten and I use has a display of hard drives in their
> >  lobby.  Going from this forty pound monstrosity with a whopping 10 meg to
> >  their most recent addition, and drive the size of a Walkman with some
> >  obscene number of gigabytes.  Makes you appreciate progress. >>
> 
> Ah, the good old days, when TRS-80s roamed the Earth, and cassette
> players were the storage medium of choice.  These young whippersnappers
> today don't realize how easy they have it....
> > 
> > And resent if for not being here sooner.
> > -Stephen
> 
> Don't be greedy, Stephen, or you might find yourself having to learn to
> program in FORTRAN.  On a mainframe.  Using punch cards.  (Been there,
> done that, forgot most all of it since 1980.)

Wait til you tell 'em "Hey, the computer needs reprogramming!" and they hand 
you a shopping bag full of jumpers, a phillips screwdriver, a pair of pliers, 
and the 'chine ual'.  <grin>

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 02:25:27 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel...

Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel to 100 diam limits (was Re: Economics/
> ...
> >> I don't know what you would call "dirt cheap" but it a way to make
> >> it cheaper than having to bring fuel up from the main world.
> >
> >I think Steven would beg to differ that...
> 
>   I happen to suspect that the cheapest thing would be to get water from a
> worlds surface - fewer losses to skimming accidents over the years. However,
> I assumed that this was not an option for arguments sake - it's just too
> easy, and not universally available. GG skimming probably (?) wins overall.

I don't know yet whether this question has been addressed later in this
thread (I went a week without a working computer, and found 800+
messages once I got my new machine up and running), but:

From what sources do systems with neither standing water nor gas giants
get fuel?  Do they import it (and if so, at what kind of markup?), or
are there economically viable sources of hydrogen other than oceans
(either water or some other hydrogen-bearing compound) and gas giants? 
Comets, perhaps?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 02:37:35 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: You might not belive this...

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
> 
> At 03:56 AM 5/11/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >> In a message dated 99-05-11 03:01:16 EDT, you write:
> >>
> >> << Ruh rho, Shaggy.
> >>
> >>  Frankie
> >>   >>
> >>
> >> I'm missing something here.  What does a greek letter, a dogs (?) name and
> >> something else have to with each other?
> >
> >I *think* you missed Saturday morning cartoons.  Scooby Doo's fave line was
> >'Rhu rho...'  Talked pretty good, for a dog...
> 
> Proto Vargr?
> 
Of _course_ not.  The Vargr were created _long_ before Milieu: SD. 
Obviously a case of parallel development....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 02:50:57 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Insignia and Emblems

Christopher Thrash wrote:
> 
<<snips request for insignia and emblems>>
> >
> > Sabmiqys
> 
> It's a stylized representation of a clawed hand, covered in circuitry...
> 
> "Resistance is Futile."

"...if less than 1 ohm."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 02:59:42 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Funny thing is, I kind of miss the days when I needed to teach myself BASIC
> to get the computer to do anything...

I know exactly what you mean.  ;-)

I look at it this way:  The fact that I have learned to program in BASIC
and FORTRAN (even though I've forgotten most of the specifics), and to
work with DOS, enhances my skills in working with Whindoze.

ObTrav:  Those who are accustomed to working with "obsolete" operating
systems and programming languages (or their TL-14/15 equivalents) may
very well be in much higher demand in a post-Virus setting.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #638
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 18 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 639



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Oldies, but goodies!
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Garbage eating aliens
Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)
Re: RealLift(tm) Military Clearinghouse
Re: Customs (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #601)
Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: Custom ...
GT Far Trader:Collapsible Tanks Question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 03:21:16 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> 
> >Why a complicated solution when a simple one will fit canon? [...]
> >
> >I'm am first, last, and always an engineer (At least that is what my SO
> >says.)  KISS! is the watch world for engineers.  It mean 'Keep It Simple
> >Stupid'.  Why, because in many cases the simplest solution that meets the
> >requirements is the best and most servicable with the least unwanted side
> >effects.
> 
> Charles, do you use psionics in your Traveller games? If so, then the KISS
> explanation for Virus seems (to me) to be the psionic one. Virus is a
> psionic phenomena, a power developed in the lab in Cyberlime chips that
> enables infected systems to have all of the powers ascribed to them in TNE.
> A form of Computer Empathy, Domination, and Psychokinesis (allowing it to
> propagate by physically changing the nature of the systems it infects).

OTOH, one could also use the acronym KISS for "Keep It Stemple,
Stupid!"  The premise that the von Neumann computer paradigm is replaced
in Traveller by the so-called Stemple paradigm is the subject of an
article found, IIRC, in Joe Heck's Missouri Archives (I may be wrong;
I'm using a new machine, so I don't have any of my old bookmarks to
check this).

Bottom line:  By postulating a computing paradigm different from the von
Neumann architecture with which we are most familiar, _anything_ can
happen.  Ref's call. ;-)

<<snip>>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 03:26:22 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Oldies, but goodies!

Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> That book <<101 Cargoes>> is full os such neatnesses.  I'll never forget the look on their
> faces when they found out they were shipping feces of artists...in fragile
> glass containers no less.
> 
A pity they couldn't get a subsidy from the National Endowment for the
Arts.  They could have shipped said material _as_ art, and probably
gotten a better per-ton rate....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 20:24:31 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

>So what you have is a lot of description about what modern computers
>can do versus your estimate of their capabilities in Traveller...

No, versus what the Traveller books say Traveller computers can do.

>from which you "calculate" that we have TL12 computers?

From which it's abundantly clear that we have at least TL10 computers,
probably TL12,   possibly higher.

>Surely it would be better (esp. for an SF game) to assume that we are
>at TL8, and have TL8 computers, and put the descriptions down to faulty
>technobabble or some other misunderstanding?

You can do that if you want. Just don't try to argue that Traveller
computers are so advanced we can't understand how they work.

>After all, the TL14 = 2000 scale does not give the computer industry
>a lot of room for expansion, unless we get Grandfather computer tech
>*before* we meet the Vilani.

Er, Phil, that's because the Traveller universe is _not_our_universe_ .
In Real Life we _aren't_ going to meet the Vilani.

The whole point is that the Traveller universe as a whole does not represent
a realistic extrapolation of computer technology (unless one assumes, like
in Dune, or the Larry Niven ARM books), that there is some agency actively
suppressing computer technology.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 20:49:11 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

>>As far as computers are concerned, Traveller TLs equate approximately to
>>real world years like so :
>>
>>TL7   = 1960s
>>TL8    = 1970s
>>TL10    = 1980s
>>TL12    = 1990s
>>TL14    =  2000.....
>
>I have no problem with declaring our current computer technology
>(1999) being around TL8 or early 9, and extrapolating from there.

Problem is,  that's not what the authors of Traveller did.

They stated that Earth was TL7-8 in the seventies, and then stated that a
Model 6 was TL12.

Then, certain other things were declared to be of other Tech levels. As we
now have things that have been listed as being TL12 (and above) we are
therefore at that level now in certain technologies.

>Imperium TL tops out at TL15, with the odd TL16 found here and there.
>According to your analysis, we're already there, meaning that the
>Imperium, over 3,000 years in the future, has computers which aren't
>terribly more sophisticated than what we have now. And if you pardon
>my saying so, this is a very ludicrous assumption to make -- in 3,000
>years they've developed high-energy beam weapons, interstellar travel,
>and other technologies that we're nowhere close to developing, yet
>their computers are the same as ours??? I don't think so.

Firstly it's not an assumption. I'm basing this on what Traveller computers
are described as being able to do.

I agree that _if_ Traveller was a realistic extrapolation of 3000 years of
advances in computer technology that _would_ be a ridiculous assumption. But
Traveller is _not_ such a realistic extrapolation.

>But back to the original intent of my post here. If you say that the
>computers of today are TL14, then what TL would you rate the computers
>found in, say, Star Trek? (Use the "current" TNG/DS9/Voyager era.)

In Traveller tech levels, about TL 21 at least.
In terms of a realistic extrapoltion of 3,000 years worth of advancment,
even Star Trek is too conservative.

>And why wouldn't Traveller have at least the computer technology
>found in the earliest episodes of the original ST series?

Because it was written to not have it.

Fundamentally that's the only real reason for anything in Traveller

Anyway, as far as computer technology goes we have everything that ST-TOS
had (other than a few super weapons, such as the universal translator)  now.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:19:55 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

At 02:01 18/05/1999 EDT, SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 99-05-17 09:38:34 EDT, you write:
>
><< After all, the TL14 = 2000 scale does not give the computer industry
> a lot of room for expansion, unless we get Grandfather computer tech
> *before* we meet the Vilani. >>
>
>Grandfather computer tech?
>-Stephen

His tech progression chart added 2 TL every 10 years.
The logical conclusion was that TL22 would arrive in 2050.
TLs beyond 20 are generally considered Grandfather's Magic.
The Vilani are not due to arrive on the scene until much later.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 22:27:58 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

I hope we can discuss this without getting into a flame-fest. I
>think we're agreed on the fundamental point that there's a problem
>with computer descriptions in CT; I just personally think that
>your method of dealing with the problem opens up too big a can
>of worms.

And I think the other way opens an even bigger can of worms !
<grin>

>> Now, you could arbitrarily say that the complexity of the math does
require
>> more processor power than I currently have...
>
>That's what I'm saying: in order to rationalize the computer sizes
>and TLs, we have to assume that the jump calculations which are, IMO,
>the most fundamentally important thing the starship computer does,
>are far more complicated than typical orbital mechanics problems.

>I *don't* know the calculations required, neither does anyone else
>on Earth; but let's pretend for a moment that even the small masses
>in both the origin and destination systems have effects that must be
>accounted for, not only in relation to the ship but each in relation
>to all the others; if you assume it's an O(n^2) algorithm (i.e. time
>proportional to the square of the number of bodies), you can pick
>your n and your proportionality constant such that we can't do
>it in reasonable time today, and we will be able to at a higher TL.

However, to counter that argument, it is canonically possible for starship
navigators to do the calculations for jump _without_ a computer. Sure, it
takes them longer, but not _that_ much longer.

I do agree that it is a reasonable argument for a large computer, but it's
also plainly not a requirement for a jump, as you can also canonically jump
to unvisited systems based only on knowledge of the target star's location,
and you can equally jump to deep space where there would be no knowledge at
all of bodies smaller than stellar size.

I personally don't think you can justify anything other than a relatively
simple orbital mechanics problem based on the orbits of the the source and
destination systems, plus ( perhaps for a more "efficient" jump in a known
system) the locations of planetary bodies.  Even assuming 30 bodies at each
end n^2 is just 3600, and
you'll have trouble justifying more than a few minutes per body, let's say
10 , which with a Connection Machine of a 100 CPU's ( not a large machine by
today's standards ) is only six hours computation.

And that's for an efficient course between large systems, for the
seat-of-the-pants / slide-rule stuff we just do the two systems and take
sveral hours to calculate them by hand.

> >Tell
>> >the difference between a starship hijack attempt and a couple of
>> >foolish passenger strolling uninvited to the bridge?
>>
>> That's damn simple. A "foolish passenger" wouldn't get anywhere near the
>> bridge, you have to try vey hard to get that far, so anyone unauthorized
on
>> the bridge gets met with full force.

>Given the deck plans of Free and Far Traders, you're going to lose
>a lot of customers that way.

<grin> A "foolish passenger" that can hack the door's security system
"accidentally" ?
I'd be happy to lose such pasengers.


>> >Predict the  location of an evading 6-G target half a light-second away
>> >based on its previous pattern of evasion?
>>
>> Hell, yes, Flight simulators did that on much smaller and slower
computers.
>> And have you ever worked on an anti-radar missile system, or seen what
>> cruise missiles do  ?
>
>That's a very different problem than aiming a laser shot, which can't
>be steered in mid-flight. A missile's starting course could be off
>by half a radian without severely hurting its chances of a successful
>intercept, as long as it has some flight time to refine its trajectory.

And a laser doesn't have to worry much about leading it's target.
Fire control on a laser is far simpler than an anti-aircraft gun even.

I really only mentioned cruise missiles because what they do is far more
complicated than a laser targetting system and they do it in very small and
not very powerful computers that are throw-away.

> >Besides, my comment about spinning mechanical devices was tautological
>> >for Classic Traveller, where holo crystal storage is canonical at
>> >TL12, IIRC.
>>
>> You remember incorrectly.
>
>Check the personal equipment section in (Book 1? one of the LBBs),
>under the video recorder.

Ok, I've been proven wrong on that one, William Hostman's reference was the
first I saw.

But, according to the reference, they are widely available at TL13. Seeing
as we have them now, they're just not widely available, that would put us at
TL12, wouldn't it ?
<grin>

Actually, even I'd say that would only put us at TL11, what we have now is
only in the lab and not particularly useful yet.

>> But frankly, nothing I've seen a computer do in a Traveller game _except_
>> being self aware, and the ever-present "Universal Translator" ( which
most
>> people accept as a neccessary plot device though we always used to play
that
>> it took quite a bit of time to record and  analyse enough of the new
>> language), is more than a minor extrapolation beyond today's computing
>> capabilities, although I'm aware that many of those capabilities are
quite
>> astonishing to most people, who are unaware of what is possible.
>
>I agree with you; I'm saying that rather than assume that the 3I
>hasn't advanced very far beyond our 20th-century-earth capabilities,
>we should ascribe more power to the computers in Traveller.
>
>Since their capabilities are sketchily described anyway, I'm very
>willing to assume they can do anything I can imagine that doesn't
>conflict with canon; it seems like you're assuming they can't do
>anything that isn't explicit in canon.

Sort of, yes. Because if they _can_ do more than what canon says that opens
up an even bigger can of worms, as I mention below.

But the main reason for my argument is to invalidate claims that Traveller
computers are so advanced that we can't understand how they work. I agree I
may be guilty of pushing too strongly in that direction to prove the point,

>> >- A single purchase of a ship's computer puts a terminal with
>> >entertainment facilities in every stateroom.
>>
>> And this is described where ?
>
>It may be mentioned in SOM; personally I wouldn't serve on a small
>cramped ship if I didn't have the equivalent of a modern PC in my
>cabin. I may be making a non-canon assumption. To make the computers
>in Traveller make sense, I assume that they have all sorts of bells
>and whistles, features that don't make them any better at solving
>math problems, but make them easier to use and useful for more
>things. If you've read Neal Stephenson's _The Diamond Age_, for
>instance, you could consider that one of the secondary duties of
>the TL12+ ship's computer is to act as a babysitter for very
>young passengers - and that it can do so at no detriment to its
>mission-critical features.

Ok, I agree all of this quite possible, but to me that completely ruins the
whole Traveler universe (_far_ more so than Drop Tanks !). If you accept
computers of such capabilities you are so fundamentaly changing the social
and economic structure that there is (IMO) no way for the social, economic
and political structures as described in Traveller to continue to exist in
forms recognizable to us.

Yes, I know that sounds like a huge jump from what may seem a small change,
and I'm afraid I don't have the time to reproduce the sort of essay
neccessary to really back up that sort of statement. But I'll throw a few
concepts out for examination.

Examine what the Internet has done to America and the wired part of the
world over the last ten years. Examine what the cellular phone has done to
the entire world, most especially it's effect on land wars in Europe, and
political an military activity on the Indian sub-continent, have a look at
what's happening in the technical castes with the advent of the Palm Pilot
and similar "toys". See what's happening in Japan with the same thing.

Look what television did to America's social structure when it was used as a
babysitter.

And these are, compared to something like a "real" computer babysitter, are
all minor technological changes, but they have huge social consequences.

If people in general are willing to trust their children to a computer, then
the concept of a computerized killing machine or pilot is easy to accept,
and Travelller should be far more mechanized than it's portrayed as being.

Of course, putting children in the care of computers is what started the
Butlerian JiIhad in Dune...

>Try thinking of the tonnage of a Model/6 as a network of small
>CPUs and the space needed to sit next to them and the space to
>put the peripherals and the storage chips (or zip disks or whatever)
>rather than one big metal box.

I do, however that only explains it's size, not it's lack of power.

>Note that modern "big iron" such as you mention above is about
>"networking" individual CPUs rather than about a single fast CPU.
>Sun's slogan makes sense in Traveller: "The network is the computer."

Yep. But we can already put more computing power into one desktop-sized
orange or purple box than this Model 6 network seems to be able to provide.

>> As far as computers are concerned, Traveller TLs equate approximately to
>> real world years like so :
>>
>> TL7   = 1960s
>> TL8    = 1970s
>> TL10    = 1980s
>> TL12    = 1990s
>> TL14    =  2000.....
>
>You can't hold me to a conservative interpretation of canonical
>descriptions of Traveller computers if you're going to insist on
>that interpretation of our computer technology.

Why ?

I'm merely equating the described capability of Traveller computers to when
similar capability became available in the real world, and making a wild
guess about TL14.


>it's analogous to the
>difference between ENIAC and a Pentium. The tank development is
>about TL5 to TL8; I say that the computer development is
>also 3 or 4 TLs difference, putting us at, at the absolute upper
>limit, TL10 in computers; I'd personally vote for TL9.

Even accepting that estimation, we've gone from TL7 to TL9 (as far as
computers are concerned) in approximately fifty years, and the _rate_ of
change has not reduced yet, and is in fact continuing to increase.
Moore expected his law to be untrue by the late 1980's, it's still true ten
years later

Assuming (against the evidence ) that the rate of change _halves_ over the
next fifty years, that still puts us on TL 10.5 by 2050.

If it stays the same we're on TL 12 in 2050

If it continues accelerating, we'll be on TL 16 by then.

The most conservative estimate is TL 10 by 2050, three TLs  in 100 years,
and even that is far, far  ahead of TL 15 - TL 16 in 3000 years

More importantly, I think it conclusively demonstrates  that Traveller
computers are _not_ "so far advanced that we can't understand them"  which
is where this debate started from.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 22:56:48 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

><< Why not?  Although I am far from an expert, I know all those areas in
> computing, all self-taught.
> --  >>
>Well, it takes difrent skills to program (which I do, sometimes) repair
(been
>there done that) build (only if upgrading counts) and they need difrent
>skills, the building and repair (for a TL-9, which is were we are at) is
the
>same, part A into slot B.  Programing is much difrent, you need to know
that
>everything does, with the programing language.  I would say that to repair
or
>build a computer you need the mechanic skill and the computer skill (and
pass
>both on average) to program a computer, the rules are already there.

As someone who has gone from being a pool hustler, to house painter, to a
floor cleaner in a mental hospital, to an electrician ( 240/400V power
wiring and maintenance) , through air force avionics technician, through
electronics engineer ( servicing, designing and buillding High torque motors
and electronic controllers to go wth them, building a PC out of TTL logic
gates on bread board in my spare time), through communications network
engineer ( writing, installing, and servicing  node controllers and power
transmiters for cellular radio systems ) to writing network management
software  and billing and rating engines for large telcos, I can fully
understand why the Traveller computer skill covers both.

Anyone who can fix or design complicated hardware can do software, it's a
hell of a lot easier, it just pays more.

On the other hand, I know many so-called "programmers"  who can't change a
light bulb, and don;t even personally own a computer, but then they don't
get paid the big biccies, and they're not player characters are they ?

Any player character programmer will _definitely_ know how to design a
circuit board as well as program assembly and high level languages just like
me ! <grin>

Of course one could just say I have a high JoT rating
(that's something I haven't seen any debates over for a while.. )

Oh and sorry for the boasting, but seeing I've started I may as well keep
going.. I've also been happily married for seventeen years to a beautiful,
intelligent woman and  have four sons, of which the eldest got the prizes
for mathematics and physics last year and looks like a good candidate for
dux this year.

And I'm modest too.
<griin>

Frankly, I have no idea how all this happened, I think I owe it all to my
wife


(Now will you let go of those, please, my love ?)

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:14:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Garbage eating aliens

In mail you write:

>> Of course, I always wonder about the first guy to try beer.  "Hey guys!
>> This storage jar of grain leaked, and it's now filled with a thick, syrupy
>> foaming water.. let's drink it!"
>
> I always figured that the _second_ guy to drink fermented beverages was
> far braver than the first.  Imagine watching someone get drunk, without
> any clue as to waht was happening, and then volunteering to try it
> yourself.

Actually, I expect that drunkenness was known *long* before beer.
Animals, especially birds frequently get drunk eating fallen fruit that
has started to ferment. Having a crab apple tree in the front yard let
us watch this every fall.

So I imagine that hunter/gatherers were aware of the effects of fruit
that had gotten to the "right" stage. That likely explains *why*
someone tried beer. It may have smelled ot tasted similar. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:17:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)

In mail you write:

> What about the ship from Encounter w/ Tiber?

Sorry, I haven't read that one.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:26:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: RealLift(tm) Military Clearinghouse

In mail you write:

> Hey, all you merc/para-military supply officers!
>
> Just found an *excellent* contact on Boughene for all your troop
> support needs. Prices are decent and the company will even airdrop
> supplies to your combat troops within 48 hours of purchase.
>
> Guaranteed!
<snip>
> [What's so cool is that this site is a great template for a Traveller
> merc clearing house. What's so scary is that it's a *real site* and so
> are the weekly specials listed above; I just switched the national names
> to Traveller government entities. And these guys really do guarantee a
> supply airdrop to combat troops within 48 hours.]

In Traveller, they'd have trouble doing that for another planet in the
same system. I'd say they guarantee 10 days for anything within some
number of parsecs  (based on max jump number available). And
progressively longer for farther out.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:31:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Customs (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #601)

In mail you write:

> Robert wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> ObTrav:
> So what does the backwater customs official do, when someone comes by
> with a device that's enough tech levels higher he _can't_ verify that
> it is legal, or doesn't carry contraband, or anything similar?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> He checks his regulations manual, looks over the papers, then 
> adjusts his required bribe to match how rich the travellers look. :-)
>
> Seriously, I can see where this would be a problem. A likely solution
> is to have a supervisor who isn't from a backwater world posted to the
> backwater starport. Either the guy wanted to move to a quiet little
> planet for a semi-retirement slot, or he got exiled here for annoying 
> someone.

Given the extrality status of the starport, I'd imagine that a standard
clause in the treaty would be that the *port* either does the customs
search or helps with it. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:18:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)

In mail you write:

>> From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
>
>> At 04:10 PM 5/14/1999 -0700, Glenn wrote:
>> >I had an idea for an adventure along these lines a while ago (while
>
>> That very idea was used by Daniel da Cruz (?) for 'The Ayes of Texas', in 
>> which the battleship Texas is rebuilt while still on display.
>
> Is it a novel?  Written when?

It's the first of a *series* of novels. It came out 10-15 years back.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:37:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

In mail you write:

> Frank G. Pitt wrote:
>> 
>> >Ships are a better model for starships than automobiles, IMO.
>> >However, ships...like houses do deteriate over time becoming worth
>> >less (as opposed to worthless) even if they are maintained.  I'd say
>> >the useful life should be measured in decades, but probably not
>> >centuries.
>> 
>> Canon states useful life as bing at least a century, especially for 
>> military ships. Look at the Kinunnir lists, for example.
>
> This is why I postulated that the comparative life span of a vehicle, be
> it automobile or starship, can be based on the length of the average
> loan repayment.  An average 40 year old starship would depreciate about
> as much as an average late-20th-Century automobile that is five years
> old.  Assuming proper maintenance (which would increase as the vehicle
> ages), there is no problem with a vehicle being quite serviceable four
> or five payment-lengths after the original loan has been paid off. 
> However, the vehicle would still lose value, perhaps on a declining
> curve.  Of course, vehicles which have benefited from superior
> maintenance will lose less value.  Similarly, well-built vehicles will
> also retain their value longer, as will "collector" vehicles.

However, starships and spaceships are exposed to a *lot* less weather
than seagoing craft or autos. And the normal operating stresses will
tend to be much lower too. The only time you'll have stresses coming
from "odd" directions is while in atmosphere during landing or takeoff.

So a ship "parked" in an orbital "junkyard" will last a *long* time.
Fill it with dry nitrogen, or even just leave it open to vacuum
(depending on the ship's construction, and whether you plan to sell the
ship, or just parts).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 21:06:46 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Custom ...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
To: 'TML' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, 18 May 1999 3:56
Subject: Customs (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #601)


>Robert wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>ObTrav:
>So what does the backwater customs official do, when someone comes by
>with a device that's enough tech levels higher he _can't_ verify that
>it is legal, or doesn't carry contraband, or anything similar?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>Seriously, I can see where this would be a problem. A likely solution
>is to have a supervisor who isn't from a backwater world posted to the
>backwater starport. Either the guy wanted to move to a quiet little
>planet for a semi-retirement slot, or he got exiled here for annoying
>someone.
>
>Walt Smith
>

But in Traveller, as in reality, you don't always get "likely solutions."
You may well find a backwater supervisor too, and he not knowing either...
*and* being in a position of authority, libel to cause all manner of
troubles and delays for hapless PC's!

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 12:04:41 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: GT Far Trader:Collapsible Tanks Question

If I am reading it correctly, collapsible tanks are MUCH cheaper than fixed
tanks (i.e. it costs 400KCr for a 120DT collapsible tank rather than 160KCr
*per* DT for a fixed tank).

This makes a huge difference to the ship price (between 15 and 20 percent on a
commercial ship).

Consequently they are much more economic, as the mortgage is so much lower. Even
allowing for the loss of an extra DT of cargo space profit increases
dramatically.

There doesn't appear to be a restriction on them other than maximum G rating
when full.

So why don't all commercial ships use them?

Have I missed something?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #639
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 18 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 640



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Computer Technology
Re: Collapsible Tanks Question
re : GT Far Trader:Collapsible Tanks Question
Re: Veteran of the Psychic Wars (was Patches)
Re: Analog Aliens Take II
Re: Sector Data
Our Current Computer/Robotics TL
Analog Aliens (was re: Computer Technology)
Re: Sector Data
Re: Extended Tech Profile of Terra
Re: Car Rental
RE: Starship Depreciation
re: Car Rental
Re: Custom ...
Freight rates (Was: Drop tank numbers)
Re: RealLift(tm) Military Clearinghouse
Re: Economics of service stations
Re: Drop tank numbers
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)
Re: Oldies, but goodies!
Re: Sector Data
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 23:01:46 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <SRKOALA@aol.com>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: Computer Technology


>In a message dated 99-05-17 23:23:42 EDT, you write:
>
><<   Shoot I remember being a kid and watching the men walking on the moon
and
> hearing Walter Kronkite (or one of those anchors) reporting that we would
> have a permanent moon base in the late 80's, and have landed men on mars
>also. >>
>
>That what happens when polyticks gets in the way.

Though to be fair, it was "polyticks getting in the way" that got us on the
moon in 1969.
It wouldn't have happened with out the Soviets damaging US pride by being
first in orbit and first with a satellite.

I've read some books by the people involved at NASA at the time and they
were horrified when Kennedy made his big announncement, and several advisors
rang up and told him he should have checked with his scientific staff before
comiiting the US to something like that .

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 05:39:22 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Collapsible Tanks Question

>Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 12:04:41 +0100
>From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
>Subject: GT Far Trader:Collapsible Tanks Question
>
>If I am reading it correctly, collapsible tanks are MUCH cheaper than fixed
>tanks (i.e. it costs 400KCr for a 120DT collapsible tank rather than 160KCr
>*per* DT for a fixed tank).
>
>This makes a huge difference to the ship price (between 15 and 20 percent
on a
>commercial ship).
>
>Consequently they are much more economic, as the mortgage is so much
lower. Even
>allowing for the loss of an extra DT of cargo space profit increases
>dramatically.
>
>There doesn't appear to be a restriction on them other than maximum G rating
>when full.
>
>So why don't all commercial ships use them?
>
>Have I missed something?

Only that there is a limit on the amount of information that could be
provided in an appendix. The collapsible tank writeup in FT was there so
that I could use them in the designs, and was not meant to be
comprehensive. The full story (shamelessly nicked from HG/TCS -- I love
licenses) will read something like this:

"Collapsible Tank

"A 400,000 gal (60,000 cf) collapsible, self-sealing tank made of a light
folding polymers. Expands into empty cargo hold or space dock (which are
required, to provide support and stability). Holds 120 dtons (120 stons) of
jump fuel when full. Can be installed in 0.5 dton increments. A full tank
will rupture during maneuvers above 1.5g, spilling its contents.

"Fuel from collapsible tanks must be pumped into the normal fuel tanks
before it can be used; thus a jump made using collapsible tanks may not use
more fuel than the capacity of the normal interior fuel tanks. Pumping fuel
before a jump takes about three hours. A typical use for collapsible tanks
is to allow a short-jump ship to cross a gap in two or more jumps."

The statistics remain the same.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 23:21:32 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: re : GT Far Trader:Collapsible Tanks Question

>From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
>Subject: GT Far Trader:Collapsible Tanks Question
>
>If I am reading it correctly, collapsible tanks are MUCH cheaper than fixed
>tanks (i.e. it costs 400KCr for a 120DT collapsible tank rather than 160KCr
>*per* DT for a fixed tank).

<logical argument snipped>

>So why don't all commercial ships use them?
>
>Have I missed something?

Yeah. As I understand it, this is being errata'd.

Firstly, you cant use fuel directly from collapasible tanks to jump. It has
to go from the collapsible tanks to the main tanks, and then be used to
jump. The handwave is that only 'real' fuel tanks are capable of bleeding
the fuel to where it's needed at the correct rate (me, I say hyperspace is
allergic to neutrons, and the 'real' tankage includes all those
cryogenically-hardened nozzles and such).

Secondly, being hit in the Collapsible Tankage is Not A Good Thing. Not
much for safe areas, important for those of you who plan on getting those
nice chunky risk premiums for trading in unsafe areas.

Thirdly, regular use of collapsible tankage would probably result in a need
for maintainence and/or replacement. About 20 refills sounds about right to
me for collapsible tanks.

Ian Whitchurch 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:50:31 -0500
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Veteran of the Psychic Wars (was Patches)

>MM got along much better with Hawkwind.  He toured with them on several
>occasions, doing poetry readings at the shows.  I believe HW's live set
>"Space Ritual" has MM reading the poem that became "Veteran".  IIRC, he
>also did introductions on the Chronicle of the Black Sword tour.

He also had his own band called The Deep Fix which was featured on some of
the Hawkwind Friends and Relations albums. I don't however think that the
readings on Space Ritual was MM, I think it was Bob Calvert.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 06:16:39 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens Take II

Black ICE wrote:
> 
> Erwin Fritz wrote:
> >
> > While we're on THAT topic, what preys on a Blob? The obvious answer, an
> > animal with a built-in psionic shield, seems too predictable.
> >
> I would think that the best answer would be an organism whose nervous
> system was too simple to be vulnerable to psionics.  No psi shield
> required.

Psionic shielding only protects against telepathy and empathy, not telekinesis.

The Blobs _aren't_ telepaths, they're telekinetics. 

If you go on the dubious assumption that a single CNS structure is responsible
for all psionic talents in all species, they might have a higher incidence of
other psionic skills. I suspect, however, that wouldn't be the case, as the
psi-organ would have specialized considerably during the evolution of a
species that relied on telekinesis for all it's movement.

These things do not follow the canon psionics rules.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 06:27:56 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Sector Data

These are floating around in a number of places, and are the sector data from
the DGP Atlas of the Imperium, IIRC.

I have a set zipped up at:

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/archives/sectors.zip


Talisman wrote:
> 
> Where did you get this data?
> 
> "David P. Summers" wrote:
> 
> > A while back I down loaded sector data for all the imperial sectors
> > from a site someplace.  One of the headings of this data "PBG" which is 3
> > digit numbers.  Can anyone tell me what this is?
> > ______________________________
> > summers@alum.mit.edu
> > (This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
> 
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?
> 
>           Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 08:26:44 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL

Greetings, All,

I know that there is currently a big debate on our current computer 
TL on the TML.  This morning, before coming into work, I looked over 
the TL tables under Computers, and found very little related to 
processing speed listed under the accomplishments.  Processing speed 
is covered under equipment, etc, and demonstrate that we are above 
the original expectations of CT back in the '70s.  However, TL is 
measured more by benchmark accomplishments than by exceptional 
efficiency (except when designing vehicles, starships and other 
equipment.  :)

I feel that we are currently at TL 8, in regards to computers.  
According to the game system, TL 8 is benchmarked by massive parallel 
processing, which someone described recently on this list.  TL 9 is 
benchmarked by non-volatile memory and by voice recognition.  We have 
half of those down, so that limits our common TL to TL 8, with 
Earth's novelty tech level reaching higher in this area.  In fact, TL 
10 is benchmarked by voice transcription, which seems to indicate 
that our novelty tech level, at least in regards to computers and 
robotics, is a TL 10.

This is the answer I have found according to the game system,
directly from the TL tables in Grand Census and in MT's Referee's
Companion.  Processing speed, as used in several arguments both for
and against TL 12+ evaluations, is not listed on the technology
profile as a TL benchmark, and merely indicates that some of the
design systems are flawed in regards to processing speed and
capacity, or that we have a higher novelty TL due to that processing
speed, if you view the design systems as "fixed".  All of this is
okay with me, as it all descends from the original CT material, and
I've been cool with it for years.  That's MTU, of course.  YMMV.

Now, once we crack the non-volatile memory problem (which it may 
already be done as far as research work, and thus might affect our 
novelty tech level rating, except we already have higher) and the 
solution becomes commonplace (which has definitely not happened, 
based on the number of times I've lost documents over the years), 
then I see no problem with jumping Earth's computer/robotics tech 
level assessment to TL 10, solid.

That my two credits, for whatever it's worth to you.

Thanks for your time,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:26:07 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Analog Aliens (was re: Computer Technology)

Stephen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
<< My point was that a completely analog device wouldn't have digital
 markings at all. We add them to help us make better use of the output.
 
 The Analog Aliens I've been thinking of don't conceptualize in discrete
 numbers. If they had a slide rule, it might be marked with a color spectrum
 instead of a series of digits. >>

How would they store data?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Their initial method of storing data would be just like ours - memories.
Perhaps with a special class of society dedicated to remembering things,
like our Bards and Sages.

Writing might take them longer to develop, but when they did it might
look to us like one of those Magic Eye posters - doodles with a pattern
that stores a *lot* of data. And since divisions of any kind are alien to
them, the division between the writer and the reader would vanish as
well - anyone who reads the data would, by reading it, add to it or 
expand on it. Kind of a more elaborate version of readers scribbling notes
in the margins of books.

I imagine the idea of taking an idea and freezing it - writing it down - would
be initially hard for them to grasp, certainly harder than it was for us.
Perhaps they would initially keep data in the form of sculptures?

Analog to another Analog: "That/these/we(?) humans are willing to give
us/I/them(?) many-many-plus electronic heating units in exchange for
a/some/many copies of last/before/this(?) year's mung beetle infestation
report. He/she/they/us(?) said something about it/them/we(?) being
'beautiful art'. Hurry up and make the deal before he/they/we(?) sober up!"

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 07:37:01 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Sector Data

>People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
>  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

I'd like to see some of these PETA types try their tactics (eg,
throwing paint or a vial of blood) against some leather-clad
bikers. In fact, I'd pay money to see that and the inevitable
response...

ObTrav: are there any such groups operating in the 3I? Other than
the K'Kree, of course...


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 08:34:59 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: Extended Tech Profile of Terra

I wrote:
> I don't have the lists of accomplishments used to determine 
> individual TL from the extended TL tables here at work with me.  
> Otherwise, I could probably come up with it on my own.  From what I 
> can remember, I think we're at (and remember, this is only an 
> uninformed opinion, mostly guessing here):
> 
> 85-79898-7778-88-9

Well, after looking over the TL benchmarks this morning before coming 
in to work, I discovered that I was way off base in some of my 
rememberances of TL evaluation.  This is the actual tech profile I 
believe Terra is at today, 18 May 1999AD:

75-78987-7778-86-A

The novelty tech level is due primarily to our accomplishments under 
computer/robotics, although other fields have occasional 
accomplishments up to this level, and theoretical work at even higher 
levels.  (But I prefer to base TLs on what's actually available to 
the PCs and NPCs.)

Thanks for your time.  Now back to your regularly scheduled thread, 
already in progress...

Keep On Travellin',
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:38:50 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Car Rental

> 
> Um, Ethan, I don't think you meant to send this to TML did you?  The
> Traveller Mailing List?

Woah, how did that happen? Time to check the email alias list on Netscape...
sorry everyone & thanks Suz!

ObTrav: Misadressed Xboat messages...
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:52:36 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Starship Depreciation

Leonard Erickson writes:
<snipped>
"However, starships and spaceships are exposed to a *lot* 
less weather than seagoing craft or autos. And the normal 
operating stresses will tend to be much lower too. The only 
time you'll have stresses coming from "odd" directions is 
while in atmosphere during landing or takeoff."
<snipped>

	This is true, but spacegoing vessels probably have 
	lower tollerances than most seagoing vessels or
	automobiles. Also, bear in mind that the very oldest
	vessels are not typical. There are buildings in
	Egypt that are millenia old, but I doubt that the
	typical office tower built today will still be
	standing in 2,000 years.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:44:30 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Car Rental

Ethan Henry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> Um, Ethan, I don't think you meant to send this to TML did you?  The
> Traveller Mailing List?

Woah, how did that happen? Time to check the email alias list on Netscape...
sorry everyone & thanks Suz!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Cut to image of Ethan's professional contacts puzzling over a message
encouraging them not to take part in a piracy debate, or perhaps 
pointing out to them just how much computing power it takes to hit
an incoming missile with a starship-grade laser....  <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:59:44 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Custom ...

The Roc writes:
<snipped>
"But in Traveller, as in reality, you don't always get 
"likely solutions." You may well find a backwater 
supervisor too, and he not knowing either... *and* being 
in a position of authority, libel to cause all manner of
troubles and delays for hapless PC's!"

	"What do you mean you're confiscating my sunglasses?
	Hey, point that spear somewhere else! Where are you 
	taking me? Whaitaminite!"

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 16:21:35 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Freight rates (Was: Drop tank numbers)

Keven R. Pittsinger writes:

>>Unfortunately, the logic of this is that all freight moves across
>>the Imperium at J-1, since a J-1 ship will be cheaper than a J-2+
>>ship for any given cargo volume. The cost of shipping anything 6
>>parsecs is thus 6xJ-1, ie 6KCr/ton and takes 6 weeks.
> 
>Unless the local governments subsidise the long haul freight, which I believe 
>is the point of the 'subsidised merchant' vessels.

You're wrong there for a start. The standard arrangement for subsidizing
merchants described in CT has nothing to do with subsidizing freight rates.

>And if you wanna debate whether or not this is feasible, I refer you to any
>copy of the Wall Street Journal where you'll find out about all *KINDS* of
>subsidies the gov gives corporations if you just keep reading long enough.

So what you are saying is that ALL corporate jump-2+ traffic is heavily
subsidized by the big planetary goverments? And because freight rates
aboard corporate vessels are a flat Cr1000 per jump, shippers from worlds
so small that they don't get corporate service refuse to pay more to Free
Traders, preferring to wait for the next corporate freighter that won't be
along?
 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"Facts are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."
                - Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:22:24 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: RealLift(tm) Military Clearinghouse

Leonard Erickson posted:

<< In mail you write:

> Hey, all you merc/para-military supply officers!
>
> Just found an *excellent* contact on Boughene for all your troop
> support needs. Prices are decent and the company will even airdrop
> supplies to your combat troops within 48 hours of purchase.
>
> Guaranteed!
<snip>
> [What's so cool is that this site is a great template for a Traveller
> merc clearing house. What's so scary is that it's a *real site* and so
> are the weekly specials listed above; I just switched the national names
> to Traveller government entities. And these guys really do guarantee a
> supply airdrop to combat troops within 48 hours.]

In Traveller, they'd have trouble doing that for another planet in the
same system. I'd say they guarantee 10 days for anything within some
number of parsecs  (based on max jump number available). And
progressively longer for farther out. >>

Yeah, I couldn't figure out how they could guarantee an airlift until
I saw their section on aircraft inventory. These guys have access to
MiG-29s and Russian Tu-142 "Bear" bombers, for crying out loud!!!

In Traveller terms, these suckers would have probably have a 5000dton
"Midu Agashaam"-class Imperial Destroyer as part of their inventory.
Fully armed.

Any of you think I'm kidding? Ballistica Maximus has a very extensive
explosives section, including loaded M180 mortars. Pity their ground
vehicles section is temporarily down; I was hoping to see if they have
any T-72s available..just for rush hour in Dallas. No, really!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 16:43:11 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Economics of service stations

Keven R. Pittsinger writes:

>Considering I don't *have* an economic model.  I simply maintained that a 400 
>ton ship *and* a fueling station costs more than a 400 ton ship by itself.  

I must be getting old and forgetful. I could have sworn that several weeks
ago a number of people explained to you that, yes, a 400 T ship plus a
fuelling station costs more than a 400 T ship alone but that 1) the cost
per unit transported is lower, because you can transport a lot more units,
and 2) that, say, 10 300 T ships and a fuelling station costs less than
10 400 T ships. [Not in those exact words].



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"Facts are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."
                - Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 16:46:23 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop tank numbers

Ian Whitchurch writes:o

>>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> 
>>Like I said earlier, I was under the impression that long haul freighting
>>was pretty much subsidised.  Obviously it exists, or there would *be* no
>>Jump-3 capable ships like the subsidised liner around.
> 
>Alternativly, the State could merely let buyers and sellers agree on a
>price they are both happy with.

No, if it did that it wouldn't be The State, it would merely be... the
Imperium? 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 16:46:00 +0100
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)

In message <3.0.6.32.19990507224123.007ae8d0@mail.powersurfr.com>, cos
90 <cos90@powersurfr.com> writes
>This collection of stories would make a great web site somewhere. (I
>particularly like the one where the players decided to drop a cargo-hold
>full of water onto the warehouse... though I don't recognize the adventure.)

No great Traveller ones, but we had a Paranoia scenario where someone
was accused of being a communist - 

"You're not a communist, are you, friend Troubleshooter?"

"Of course not, comrade Computer"

There then followed a scramble to prove our loyalty to the Computer by
offing the commie clone.
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:04:22 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Oldies, but goodies!

>Peter H. Brenton wrote:
>>
><<snip>>
>>
>> That book <<101 Cargoes>> is full os such neatnesses.  I'll never forget
>>the look on their
>> faces when they found out they were shipping feces of artists...in fragile
>> glass containers no less.
>>
>A pity they couldn't get a subsidy from the National Endowment for the
>Arts.  They could have shipped said material _as_ art, and probably
>gotten a better per-ton rate....

Actually it was supposed to be art.  Nouveau, Avant-Garde art.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 08:12:23
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Sector Data

At 07:37 AM 5/18/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
>>  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
>
>I'd like to see some of these PETA types try their tactics (eg,
>throwing paint or a vial of blood) against some leather-clad
>bikers. In fact, I'd pay money to see that and the inevitable
>response...

I was in downtown SF the other day in my leather jacket and motorcycle
boots, and passed by Saks 5th Avenue, where PeTA and a few other loonie
groups were protesting.  I asked one of them why they weren't hassling me,
since I was draped in Dead Cow Skin.

The protestor hemmed and hawed, and finally complained to one of the cops
that I was harassing her.  Got to love it. I later walked by the again,
eating a hamburger, rest assured that I made production of it.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"When you're raised by the Jesuits, you
end up obedient or impertinent."
   - Asst DA Jack McCoy, _Law And Order_

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:17:23 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 02:59 AM 5/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
>ObTrav:  Those who are accustomed to working with "obsolete" operating
>systems and programming languages (or their TL-14/15 equivalents) may
>very well be in much higher demand in a post-Virus setting.
Kinda like COBOL programmers for the Y2K bug.... And here we all thought
they were obsolete (the programmers that is.  We _know_ COBOL is obsolete).
  :)

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:21:37 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

At 08:24 PM 5/18/99 +1200, you wrote:
>Er, Phil, that's because the Traveller universe is _not_our_universe_ .
>In Real Life we _aren't_ going to meet the Vilani.

Says you!  I've been talking to them since 1984.  Err.... I mean they've
been talking to me.... I mean... Never mind.... Darn, I'm gonna loose email
privileges again.....

:)

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:34:11 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

At 10:56 PM 5/18/99 +1200, you wrote:
>Anyone who can fix or design complicated hardware can do software, it's a
>hell of a lot easier, it just pays more.
>
>On the other hand, I know many so-called "programmers"  who can't change a
>light bulb, and don;t even personally own a computer, but then they don't
>get paid the big biccies, and they're not player characters are they ?
>
>Any player character programmer will _definitely_ know how to design a
>circuit board as well as program assembly and high level languages just like
>me ! <grin>

I don't know about PCs, (as in RPG) but I know plenty of brilliant, highly
paid programmers who know nothing about how the low-level hardware works.
One programmer I know quite well is a highly sought consultant in his area
and earns close to a quarter million dollars annually.  Beyond putting
expansion cards into a PC (as in IBM), he knows next to nothing about
hardware.  His 15 year old son had to set up the house network for him,
since he couldn't figure it out.  Conversely, I know plenty of Computer
Engineers that can't program anything more complex than a 4 bit adder.   

So while "computer" is an OK approximation, I vastly prefer the GT 4-tier
breakdown (operation, programming, electronics, hacking).  And before you
ask, no I don't think someone with programming automatically has a high
operation (although they should and do default).  I knew several excellent
programmers that came from Russia that took months to learn to deal with
DOS/Windows.  They were used to just writing the code and handing it to the
data entry people for transfer to the computer (often by punch cards).



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #640
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 18 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 641



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Computer Technology
re: Car Rental
Re: RealLift(tm) Military Clearinghouse
Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data)
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)
Re: Computer Technology
re: Car Rental
RE: Car Rental
Re: Fleet Ops
Re: Computer Technology
re:Sector Data
re: GT Far Trader:Collapsible Tanks Question
customs officals
re: Fleet Ops
Re: Fleet Ops
re: Car Rental
Keith Supplements Catalog Online
re: Fleet Ops
Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL
Re: one minor comment on Virus
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:46:29 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

- -----Original Message-----
From: SRKOALA@aol.com <SRKOALA@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 1:22 AM
Subject: Re: Computer Technology


>it is, but then a player says: I want a patrol cruiser.  Dumps a can of
>nanits on the ground, comes back in a few days and a patrol cruiser is
there,
>not much for an RPG, unless they get out of control...like one story I
know.


Bah... This is the argument I've heard quite a bit from the list in the
past.

It's entirely plausible, at least in my opinion, that nanotech advancement
will come in degrees. Introducing nanotech doesn't mean that you *must*
include mature, well-developed, bug-free replicators. There are other ways
that the tech can be used.

> >What canon laws?
>
>
> I don't know where to begin...
>  >>
>I think someone else covered them.


There are alot of canon laws. The two biggies that were already covered
concerned travel and communications. There are others, but they may change
depending on the person that you talk to.

Automation is one of the big sticking points for alot of people. The
Traveller books indicate that the Imperium is largely devoid of artificial
intelligence and large scale automation, so to some people you're not
playing Traveller if you utilize such things in your campaign world.

Biotechnology and extensive genetic engineering are other sticking points
that people tend to get very worked up over.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:32:27 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: re: Car Rental

Walter Smith posted:

<< Ethan Henry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> Um, Ethan, I don't think you meant to send this to TML did you?  The
> Traveller Mailing List?

Woah, how did that happen? Time to check the email alias list on Netscape...
sorry everyone & thanks Suz!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Cut to image of Ethan's professional contacts puzzling over a message
encouraging them not to take part in a piracy debate, or perhaps 
pointing out to them just how much computing power it takes to hit
an incoming missile with a starship-grade laser....  <G> >>

SPPPLOOOORRRT!  'coughcough'

ROFLMAO!

Try having your boss's boss find a set of deckplans on his
fancy new color laser printer. Good thing I had turned off
the header page.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:43:11 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: RealLift(tm) Military Clearinghouse

David J Smart wrote:

>Any of you think I'm kidding? Ballistica Maximus has a very extensive
>explosives section, including loaded M180 mortars. Pity their ground
>vehicles section is temporarily down; I was hoping to see if they have
>any T-72s available..just for rush hour in Dallas. No, really!

Dallas rush hour is not that bad, all you need is a BMP-1.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:41:08 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data)

Douglas E. Berry posted:

<< I was in downtown SF the other day in my leather jacket and
motorcycle
boots, and passed by Saks 5th Avenue, where PeTA and a few other loonie
groups were protesting.  I asked one of them why they weren't hassling
me,
since I was draped in Dead Cow Skin.

The protestor hemmed and hawed, and finally complained to one of the
cops
that I was harassing her.  Got to love it. I later walked by the again,
eating a hamburger, rest assured that I made production of it. >>

You are *so* naughty. <weg>

<snip>

<< "When you're raised by the Jesuits, you
end up obedient or impertinent."
   - Asst DA Jack McCoy, _Law And Order_ >>

Heheh. One guy I knew who went to a Jesuit school for Grades 6-12
became a very polite SEAL.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 12:42:00 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)

In a message dated 5/17/99 11:49:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
wombat@premier.net writes:

<< 
 > Strange...  Merchant Prince characters are usually ex-megacorp vets who 
enter
 > the game as crew on tramp freighters, not the other way around... >>

It's cheaper to pay a brand new 21 year old management trainee straight out 
of college (and inculcate him/her into your business' culture) than to pay a 
40 year old who has a family and demands a much higher salary (and will work 
less years for you until retiring). This is why age discrimination is rampant 
in the American workplace. I asume this consideration applies to some extent 
in the Traveller Megacorps. I could see the Megacorps severely punishing 
those who go through their training, and then quit to go independent...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 08:18:53
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)

At 04:46 PM 5/17/99 +0100, you wrote:

>No great Traveller ones, but we had a Paranoia scenario where someone
>was accused of being a communist - 
>
>"You're not a communist, are you, friend Troubleshooter?"
>
>"Of course not, comrade Computer"
>
>There then followed a scramble to prove our loyalty to the Computer by
>offing the commie clone.

I once got a promotion by exposing myself as a Commie Mutant Traitor, and
performing my own execution.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:28:57
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

At 11:21 AM 5/18/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 08:24 PM 5/18/99 +1200, you wrote:
>>Er, Phil, that's because the Traveller universe is _not_our_universe_ .
>>In Real Life we _aren't_ going to meet the Vilani.
>
>Says you!  I've been talking to them since 1984.  Err.... I mean they've
>been talking to me.... I mean... Never mind.... Darn, I'm gonna loose email
>privileges again.....

Really now.. Mar*c* Miller?  The misspelling is a dead giveaway...

(No offense to Marc, whom I admire)
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 13:12:59 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: re: Car Rental

>Walter Smith posted:
>
><< Ethan Henry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
[yadayadayada]
>SPPPLOOOORRRT!  'coughcough'
>
>ROFLMAO!

This thread definitely has as much humor value as "stupid XX tricks".

>Try having your boss's boss find a set of deckplans on his
>fancy new color laser printer. Good thing I had turned off
>the header page.

Better yet, bringing the full talents of the tech support department to
bear to make the new networked HP printer capable of printing on 11x17
paper, then having the chief techie say something like "Whew, that sure did
take a lot of man-hours to get working right, what did you need it for
anyway?".

I mean, I just made the one casual remark that I couldn't get it working,
how did I know it would take two guys 3 hours each to get it up and
running?  I just wanted it for deckplans!

Anyway, its better than finding pornographic image files being backed up
nightly on tape...

Pete

                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 13:31:44 -0400
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: RE: Car Rental

I've gotten them used to finding deckplans and stuff like that on the
printer.  Matter of fact, they bring it over and say "I think this is
yours."

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Smart, David J (David) [mailto:dasmart@lucent.com]
		Sent:	Tuesday, May 18, 1999 12:32 PM
		To:	'traveller@mpgn.com'
		Subject:	re: Car Rental

		Walter Smith posted:

		<< Ethan Henry wrote:
		>>>>>>>>>>>>
		> 
		> Um, Ethan, I don't think you meant to send this to TML did
you?  The
		> Traveller Mailing List?

		Woah, how did that happen? Time to check the email alias
list on Netscape...
		sorry everyone & thanks Suz!
		>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
		Cut to image of Ethan's professional contacts puzzling over
a message
		encouraging them not to take part in a piracy debate, or
perhaps 
		pointing out to them just how much computing power it takes
to hit
		an incoming missile with a starship-grade laser....  <G> >>

		SPPPLOOOORRRT!  'coughcough'

		ROFLMAO!

		Try having your boss's boss find a set of deckplans on his
		fancy new color laser printer. Good thing I had turned off
		the header page.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 18:46:39 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

SRKOALA@aol.com writes:
><< I think it's more a matter of budget being spent on defense forces (System
> Defense Boats, Monitors and such) rather than forces being held back.
> If you have more locations to defend, you'll spend more of your naval
> budget on defense forces - and the most effective defense forces don't
> have jump drives. >>
>
>right, good point, same result.

The version of the FFW system in T4's Imperial Squadrons ends up producing
sys def squadrons too hard for an attacker to crack. ISTR that some people
posted fixes for the system.

Interestingly, I recall reading somewhere a rule of thumb that an attacker
should outnumber the defender 3:1 at least. Would this hold true for
Traveller space combat, or is the advantage with the attacker?]

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 18:50:24 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

"Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:
>Anyway, as far as computer technology goes we have everything that ST-TOS
>had (other than a few super weapons, such as the universal translator)  now.

My ST (with TOS1.04) never had any superweapons or a universal translator.

Dom ;-)

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 19:08:02 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:Sector Data

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

>A while back I down loaded sector data for all the imperial sectors
>from a site someplace.  One of the headings of this data "PBG" which is 3
>digit numbers.  Can anyone tell me what this is?

Yes.














P - P(opulation Multiplier) ie UWP pop fig multiplied by this
B - B(elts) ie number of asteroid belts
G - G(as giants).

You surprised me with this question!

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 18:56:07 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: GT Far Trader:Collapsible Tanks Question

John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net> wrote:

>If I am reading it correctly, collapsible tanks are MUCH cheaper than fixed
>tanks (i.e. it costs 400KCr for a 120DT collapsible tank rather than 160KCr
>*per* DT for a fixed tank).
>
>This makes a huge difference to the ship price (between 15 and 20 percent on a
>commercial ship).
>
>Consequently they are much more economic, as the mortgage is so much
>lower. Even
>allowing for the loss of an extra DT of cargo space profit increases
>dramatically.
>
>There doesn't appear to be a restriction on them other than maximum G rating
>when full.
>
>So why don't all commercial ships use them?
>
>Have I missed something?

Older versions of Traveller had a pump time to transfer the fuel to
permanent tanks from the collapsibles, IIRC. This, along with the space
they occupy, could make them less viable. I also suspect that they are less
strong than the demountable units. One could postulate that there are
fatigue limits too.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 16:42:38 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: customs officals

>ObTrav:
>So what does the backwater customs official do, when someone comes by
>with a device that's enough tech levels higher he _can't_ verify that
>it is legal, or doesn't carry contraband, or anything similar?

  That's easy.  They impound it.  On a good day they impound the person too.
Strip search, cavity search, lots and lots of questions.

   Sufficent bribes can help if properly applied.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"This has the characteristic look and feel of a complete fiasco." 
                http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:54:27 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

Dom Mooney wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
Interestingly, I recall reading somewhere a rule of thumb that an attacker
should outnumber the defender 3:1 at least. Would this hold true for
Traveller space combat, or is the advantage with the attacker?]
>>>>>>>>>>>
It's sure cheaper to build a non-jump warship for defense than it is
to build a jump-capable warship for offensive operations. The attacker's
only advantages are strategic - he can focus all his offensive operations
against the defenses of one star system, defensive operations have
to be pretty spread out. Add to this that the defender has a two-week
minimum lag on getting reinforcements to a system that's under attack.

Big strategic advantages can overcome a lot of tactical disadvantages.
Take a look at the United States of America in WW2.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:35:05
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

At 06:46 PM 5/18/99 +0100, you wrote:

>Interestingly, I recall reading somewhere a rule of thumb that an attacker
>should outnumber the defender 3:1 at least. Would this hold true for
>Traveller space combat, or is the advantage with the attacker?]

Try *10*-1.  If the defender has any time to prepare, and is defending home
ground, you'll need to really pry him out.

Since defenders in Traveller Space combat aren't at the end of a rather
tenuous supply line, I'd give them the advantage.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:32:41
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: re: Car Rental

At 01:12 PM 5/18/99 -0400, you wrote:

>>Try having your boss's boss find a set of deckplans on his
>>fancy new color laser printer. Good thing I had turned off
>>the header page.
>
>Better yet, bringing the full talents of the tech support department to
>bear to make the new networked HP printer capable of printing on 11x17
>paper, then having the chief techie say something like "Whew, that sure did
>take a lot of man-hours to get working right, what did you need it for
>anyway?".

Hey, you never know where you'll find other gamers..

This morning I picked up a seemingly normal businessman.  He dove into the
Wall St. Journal while I negotiated morning traffic.  When I got an add, I
had to look up the obscure hotel the guest was at.  Getting my hotel book
out, I happened to pull out _Far Trader_.  

Guy's eyes get real wide.. "Traveller? I used to play that in college..."

Needless to say, none of my other passengers understood a damn thing all
the way to the airport (Jesse: he got a giggle out of the SFO
illustration), and he swore he was going to go out and buy all the GURPS
stuff.

Made my day.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 12:14:36 -0700
From: Jerry Paul Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Keith Supplements Catalog Online

I've put the Keith Brothers Supplements catalog online. If you'd like to
take a look, point your browser to:


www.primenet.com/~timmon/supplements.html

Cordially,
Paul Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:15:15 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
Try *10*-1.  If the defender has any time to prepare, and is defending home
ground, you'll need to really pry him out.

Since defenders in Traveller Space combat aren't at the end of a rather
tenuous supply line, I'd give them the advantage.
>>>>>>>>>>>
There's one advantage I can think of for the attacker, besides the
strategic "action easier than reaction" one: the fragility of what's
being defended.

Planets can't dodge, evade, or retreat. They pin the defenders in
certain ways, force the defenders hand. If the attacker drives hard
on the planet with everything, the defender must stop him quickly
or millions will die. The attacker can lose badly, and still leave burned
out craters where metropoli and starports used to be - losses that
will cost more, in lives and material, than the starfleet sacrificed to
inflict them.

I can see how the fragility of the planet could be a kind of defense. The 
attacker, unless he's in some Black War scenario, wants the planet intact.
As long as he wants it intact more than he wants to deny it to the
defender, the planet is (relatively) safe. This situation can change in
moments, of course.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 12:42:14 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL

Jason Kemp wrote:
> [Excellent description of the "benchmark" interpretation of
> Traveller TLs deleted]
>
> Now, once we crack the non-volatile memory problem (which it may
> already be done as far as research work, and thus might affect our
> novelty tech level rating, except we already have higher) and the
> solution becomes commonplace (which has definitely not happened,
> based on the number of times I've lost documents over the years),
> then I see no problem with jumping Earth's computer/robotics tech
> level assessment to TL 10, solid.

I'm not sure how "non-volatile memory" is defined viz. the 
TL chart, but we have a large number of non-volatile memory
solutions in current use. Your hard disk is one of them; 
flash EEPROM as found on many digital cameras is another. 

I would fully support declaring Earth, 1999 AD, to have a 
solid computer TL of 9, novelty TL of 10. I anxiously await
Frank Pitt's opinion. :)

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:55:07 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: one minor comment on Virus

> There were cyber zombies in the adventure in vampire fleets.  I do not
> recall how they came about exactly but they were there.

They're "breeds" and are plain ol humans w/ cybernetics (FF&S) put in them.  
"Cyber zombies?"  ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:55:05 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

> >He he!  I knew *this* was coming, Charles.  :-)
> >
> 
> Of course you did.  The virus as discribed is bunk!.

Says you.  Unforunately, you're not qualified to tell us bout TL9+ computers 
and while everything you say applies to the majority of TL8 computer science, 
it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand (but I'm really getting quite used 
to your TL-8 analogies.  I'm sure you'll eventually bring up some animals 
somewhere along the line, too.  Maybe something to do w/ an abacus, which is 
an appropriate analogy for what you have to compare w/ even a TL-12 computer, 
much less TL-15 or 16 or 17).  ;-)

I *knew* we'd see another display of incoherence from you, really, though the 
best is yet to come, i'm sure  ;-)  This time you were rather coherent, 
though, if narrow minded and inflexble.  You seem to be unable to get your 
mind out of the TL8 (GTL7) rut you're stuck in.  Your "experience" w/ 20th 
century computers has put u in a cage as far as 57th century computers are 
concerned.

> >Who knows?  I'd say it depends on how the comps work to begin w/, which has
> >not be detailed (nor will it).  How do GURPS TL9+ comps work?  The same as
> >GTL7s?
> >
> 
> Executable and non executable must be flaged in ANY system.  It comes down
> to the diference between data and code.  One is operated on and the otehr is
> the operater.  TL will not change this.

How do you KNOW this will apply?  This ignores even some obsuricities and 
theory from *today* much less a couple thousand years in teh future.  The 
human brain definately doesn't appear to follow that hard cut rule, and 
synaptics (the "organic cores") You can assume that computer science has 
reached a dead end w/ just incremental increases of efficiency on current 
hardware/software, etc, but that is quite sadly lacking in imagination.  
You've always been stuck in TL-8, though, it seems.

Even playing along w/ you, Virus is "inside" the computer.  Inside it's 
world, it can manipulate the flags as easily as you can scratch your ass.  At 
TL-11+ computers are no longer deterministic.  Ignoring everything in 
between, for a moment, at TL-17 computers are explicity able in canon to be 
able to program through the hardware only (B8: Robots, MT's Ref Companion, 
etc etc).  Whether this is backwards compatible w/ lower tech level computers 
can well be the subject of a mean debate, though it's an apparent presumption 
(to a limit) of Virus, as written.  Even modifying that to be synaptics 
required, etc doesn't hurt the concept (or effect or implementation) of Virus.

> >Unknown.  Anti-virus software (which is said in Survival Margin to actually
> >be strains Virus itself, by the time of the Collapse) is still coded and
> >"made" by people outside of the system, whereas Virus itself is actually
> >inside the system and runs circles around it (if not coopting it to it's 
own
> >usage).  There is an electronic combat system in Vampire Fleets for them to
> >duel.
> >
> 
> That is a load of CRAP! for several reasons.

heh heh.  Easy there, khihe.  Don't blow a blood vessel.
 
> First, an instruction runs at a fixed rate determined by the clock rate of
> the exectuting system.  The viruses instruction are no different that those
> of the system itself.  They run at the same speed because it is the system
> that set the instruction list.  That is why you have to recompile programs
> for different platforms.  The instruction sets are fixed by the command
> processors.

Again, trapped in TL-8.  There is NO Virus "instruction."  Virus *lives* 
inside the system.  As a power surge, free-floating program, or whatever.  
Those same little electrical pulses that make you the... sophont... known as 
Charles Prevatte, maybe.
You can have no argument against synaptics since you don't know how they work 
(and are a ready made Bill Gates if you do...).

> Second, inorder for the virsus to become executable it would have to be
> flaged as an execuable.  Any security system will moniter the executables
> list for that very reason.  As long as the virus is data it is in supended
> animation and can take no action.

Virus can switch the flags.  Like waving your hand.  It can also burn it's 
own circutry and disconnect your security system (probably taking over the 
ICE, ala HIV and T-cells) or cut routes around the security system, assuming 
they'd have any effect to begin with.

> Third, programs today are being assembled by smart compilers that optomise
> the code for the system they were design to run on.  These compilers have
> millions of hours of experience in compiling to these systems.  I find it
> hard to believe that the virus with little or no experience with the systems
> being attacked can match purpose built optomising compilers.

"Today."  Course, playing along w/ you, Survival Margin (pg 75) says that the 
Virus was already extensively trained/designed to take over every standard 
Imperial compute configuration (which had been standardized in an "Imperial 
Data Package which covered everything from graphite pencils to radial tires 
to starship software").  For non Imperial computers, once inside a peripheral 
systme, Virus would watch how they worked.  It would do *nothing* after 
carving out it's "hidey hole" except watch how the OS worked and learn how to 
manipulate it.

Remember, one of the core principle of Virus is for it to be able to burn 
it's own circutry over existing circuity, based on the method of the 
Cymbeline predator, just on a larger scale.  *Hardware* not software 
modification.  Once it's in the system, that's the first thing it does.  
Shutting down and reformating, by whatever method the computers do that is 
fine, but a Virus will come right out of it's hidey hole and reinfect.  Alot 
quicker than you can blink your eyes (though sometimes I imagine u do that 
pretty slow).  : P

> >> 3) Who tells the recieving unit that the assembled code is an executable?
> >
> >It's not an "executable."  Stop thinking in TL8 (GTL7) terms.  Say that
> >computers don't operate like anything you're familiar with.  For one, they
> >have organic cores, and I doubt you have experience w/ them.
> >
> 
> That is strawman crap.  There will always be a delineation between data and

To be a strawman, I would have to have put that up for you to knock it down, 
which wasn't the case.  Stop using words because they look cool to you.  ;-)  
I'll stop short of accusing u of plagarism.  ;-)

> code.  Unless you can explain how to 'execute' the Encyclopedea Britannica!

No crap.  But do you live "inside" a computer?  Nope (though I'm starting to 
wonder. lol).  What does data and code "look" like on the "inside?"  If you 
could directly manipulate it w/ your "will" or "hand" or whatever it would be 
intuitive to you.  Too bad it's not.

> Just out of curiousity, fow much assebly code have you written?  If you have
> not written any then most of what I have just said will not make anty sence
> to you.  The fact is processors MUST have their instruction fed to them in
> the exactly correct format or they will error out into an error handling
> system (if they do not crash or hang.)

I haven't written any, though I've taken a CS class or 3, it does make "anty" 
sense to me.  I'm not debating anything you're saying (though I could take 
out some theories, but it seems others have beat me to it) about *todays* 
computer theory nor even the basic principles.  You're completely closed 
minded in allowing any improvisation around them based on your narrowminded 
view (and absurd conclusions).  Have you joined the anti-Drop Tank ranks?  :-)

> >> 4) What sane person would let unknown persons remote load a progam and
> >> remote ececute it on their ships main computer?
> >
> >Noone did it voluntarily or even finding out till many months later.
> 
> They had to!  As long as the virus was 'data' it was inactive.  To run, it
> had to be executed.  Basic security procedures would not allow an unlisted
> and unverified executable run on a military system.

They had to?  Remember there's a transponder that's linked to the main 
computer?  Straight from transponder chatter (way before any squawks) to the 
main comp, to a hidey hole.  Even ships w/ a mute can't stop their ships 
transponder from reading others.  It's still infectible, just can't infect 
until the mute is turned off.

> >Transponder (which consists of two lobotimized cymbeline predators) chatter
> >(w/ direct access to commo and computers) was the primary vector of
> >transmission.  Virus is not a "program."  It's a life form that lives in
> >electronics.  The next vector was computer controlled tight beam commo
> >(accuracies measured in attoradians, doppler shift correction, encoding and
> >decoding, etc).
> >
> 
> NOT RELAVENT.  If it is the 'chip lifeform' it must have physical contact

It's surely "relavent" in that it isn't a "chip lifeform" either.  It's eons 
above them evolutionary, as Lucan's scientists did in the lab (they had an 
extraordinary mutation rate, according to Survival Margin).  It's an 
electronic lifeform.  Get enough space in a signal (and/or series of signals) 
hidden in the tremendous amounts of data required for tightbeam commo from 
hundreds of thousands of km, and it's actually moving to the new system.  No 
"executable" to run.  It's actually "jumped" to the new system (actually 
replicated, since the original personality has stayed in it's system). 

Remember, the transponder method of infection completely circumvents *all* of 
your objections (though they don't hold water against the way Virus works, 
just on your (incorrect) interpretation of it).  Every ship w/ a transponder 
was ready made for the Virus, though unintentionally.  The SDG suite was a 
familiar location (being a lobotmized embryonic Cymbeline predator) in an 
alien electronics system in which to grow and develop and proceed *directly* 
into the ship's computer.

> and the proper enviroment to overwrite the circuits.  If it come over the
> comm it is a program that must run to realign the neural network to have the
> same effect.  If it must run it has to be seen by the system as an
> executable file.  That means the code inside that file must be error free
> for the system that it is to run on, have executable status, and on a secure
> system it must be on the run list with the correct check sum or CRC as a
> minimum.  If I were the Sysop, I would require that it also be in ROM
> storage and that it be run fron that ROM storage or if it were a learning
> program then it would have to have an unbroken evolution history back to the
> ROM version that is in storage and pass a history profile checksum and/or 
CRC.

Unfortunately, you the Sysop, are told to shut your hole and plug the 
transponder into your computer to comply with Imperial regulations.  

> >> 5) Are there no computer security people in the traveller universe?
> >
> >Sure, but they're at an inherent disadvantage operating outside of their 
own
> >evironment against a life form in it's own.  Especially when they don't 
know
> >it's there and find they have no computer references to viruses or 
combating
> >them (the first thing Virus would do is delete or corrupt such 
information).
> >This is in the "dormant" phase.
> >
> 
> And any secure system worth the name would detect the change with it's next
> CRC pass and set off alarms.

What changes?  There are no checksums.  Blah blah.  Get out of your TL-8 
computer prison.  This was mentioned by Survival Margin too.  You have read 
the book, haven't you?  lol.  Or at least "When Empires Fall?"  The only 
thing visible would've been power spikes as Virus was cutting new circutry.  
Noone but Lucan's scientists would've known what it meant, though.  It's 
inconceivable fo ryou to believe the last paragraph of Survival Margin, pg 
74?  The relevant sentence is, for teh sake of brevity, "In the realm of 
measure, counter-measure, counter-counter-measure, 
counter-counter-counter-measure, there is always a small window of 
opportunity for the latest system."  

> As for the programers being 'out of their enviroment', yes and no.  Even
> with just a consol the only diference is the speed scale and the person has
> the advantage of haveing all the technical data on the system.  The virus is
> in a strage new enviroment it's self.  With a neural jack and military ICE
> the programer is ready for WAR!

Now you're bringing neural jacks into it?  Let Virus infect the programmer?? 
lol

> Nope, see above.  There will aways be a difference between data and code.
> The code MUST be in the processors command code format.  Data does not have
> to be.

*Have to be* but *could* be.  To say nothing of the fact that Virus might be 
able to switch the flags, even if there was the set difference.

> >> 9) The only way the the virus could reconfigure the computers circuitry 
is
> >> if the circuitry was designed to be reconfigured during operation, like a
> >
> >Which it is.
> >
> 
> But the virus must be an executable to do so.

When you're reconfiguring the physical circutry, this is not a problem, 
ignoring your TL-8 rut.  ;-)

> >> 10) FIBs would be immune as well as their composition is as alien to the
> >> chips as is our human biology.
> >
> >Only for the low tech computers.  The rest operates the same (synaptics, 
self
> >programming, etc).
> >
> 
> And the FIB will load all it's programs from it's own ROM to start with and
<snip>
 
It's the same.  They operate the same.  Part of Imperial standardization.  
Besides, most ships w/ Fb comps don't have St comps (what's the point?  If 
you're expecting EMP, your St's will be shut down...)

> >> shielded hard wired backups to all critical systems.  These would also be
> >> immune to the virus as they would have to be EM shielded and EM is the
> >> method of infection for the virus.
> >
> 
> >It is?  It's news to me.  lol.
> >
> 
> IT'S THE EMERGENCY BACK UP!  Of course it will be as fail safe and protected

Easy there, khihe.   Just yanking your chain.  Besides the fact, that wasn't 
what I was referring to (but EM shielding stopping a Virus transmission- all 
u need to do is yank out your transponder and not accept the tightbeam commo).

> >> I personally love the idea of the virus.  It's a great villain.  It can
> >> still be very deadly even with the logical limitaions that is should 
have.
> >> It is smart and can be patient.  It can be even worse than discribed if
> >> played that way even with the limitaions it suffers from.  I've always
> >> though the virus got a bum rap.  If properly thought out it could have 
been
> >> the boogyman of traveller.  Instead of the grab control of everything and
> >> kill story that was presented it could have been the 'ghost in the 
machine'
> >> that first infiltrated nearly everything before reaking havok.  This way 
it
> >
> >That's *exactly* how it happened.  The infiltration was done for *months*
> >while the Virus was reproducing like mad.  It developed so fast initially
> >because it was inserted directly into Dulinor's flagship's main computer,
> >because he thought he had "weapons data" from one of Lucan's Black War
> >projects and wanted to analyize it.  From there, it immediately deleted all
> >references to computer viruses and how to combat them and proceeded to 
> > spread though his entire fleet.  Lucan's fleet likewise was infected as 
they
> >intercepted the transmissions.  In any case, they all had SDG transponders
> >(w/ a mute) htat made further infection (and reinfection) easy.  The 
Collapse
> >wasn't for many months afterwards, after they had further spread to 
starports
> >control towers (w/ their own transponder), merchant traffic (ditto), etc, 
in
> >teh Safe's (as Dulinor's messangers went back to Ilelish, Lucan's back to
> >Capital, etc).
>
> 
> I read that and that was not what I was refering to.  I ment that the virus
> did not infiltrate far enough into sociaty to strike a death blow.  It

Your quote contradicts that:
<<the boogyman of traveller.  Instead of the grab control of everything and
kill story that was presented it could have been the 'ghost in the machine'
that first infiltrated nearly everything before reaking havok.  This way it>>

> showed it's hand to early.  It stared killing ships with two weeks, IIRC.

Two weeks?  Where you came up w/ that is beyond me.  LOL.  Not from Survival 
Margin, though if you count malfuctions (misjumps) it could.  It didn't 
"kill" ships ala Vampires till the Collapse (months afterwards), AFAIK.

> >> could have taken secret control of the automated factories and wrote it's
> >> code into systems as they were being built.  It would have been 
simplicity
> >> itself to set a date say 5 years after it's first release for D-day.  The
> >> sudden attack everywhere at teh same time would have been far more 
effective
> >> than what happened in cannon and more believeable as well.
> >
> >Um... that's exactly how it happened.  Reread Survival Margin, please.  
What
> >you describe matches exactly Survival Margin pg 74 and 75.  I don't know 
what
> >"cannon" you've been reading..
> 
> I did, that is not how it is documented.  It jumped mainly through the comm

It is too.  You want me to quote the whole thing?  Or is this another book 
not "available" to you to participate in the discussion and you're faking the 
funk?

> system ant that is where I have the problem.  I'm not saying that a 'seed'
> could not be past imbeded in some program that would in time infect
> thousands of systems.  I'm saying the what is atributed to the virus is not
> the pattern that such a weapon would take.  The infection was first to fast

Design one and prove it.  Well... You'll just refuse to put up or shut up.  

> and second not pervasive enough.  There was never an explaination of how it
> got arround the security systems.  There are hundred of small mistakes that

There was too.  You obviously didn't catch it (duh), though, and i'm hardly 
surprised by your inattention to detail, which I've become used to.  It's 
explicitly explained on pg 78, 2nd column, 3rd paragraph.  Must've missed it, 
huh?

> just add up to incansistances that make the virus as is unbelieveable.

Hundreds huh?  Care to list em?  None of your "incansistances" hold any 
water.  Strawmen?  That's the ticket.


Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #641
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 18 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 642



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

[Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
Re: Keith Supplements Catalog Online
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
Re: Keith Supplements Catalog Online 
Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL
Re: Psionic Virus (Was:A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans)
Re: Virus debate
Re: Virus debate
Re: Sector Data
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 16:00:06 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

At 03:20 AM 5/13/99 EDT, SKROALLA@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 99-05-13 03:06:52 EDT, you write:
>
><< That's nothing ! <grin>
> 
> We used to do voice and waveform synthesis by clicking the cassete motor
> relay at the approrpriate frequency ! >>
>
>You could do voice synthesis with a motor, got any tips for doing it in
BASIC 
>or C++?
>-Stephen
>

Well, on the TRS-80 or Apple ][ there was a poke statement in the basic
interpreter, so you would convert your assembly language to decimal DATA
statements, and POKE it into memory. On the apple at least, you could 
control the motor from basic by using PEEK and POKE statements, since 
the I/O was memory mapped. All I remember now was that FF69 was the same
as getchar().

I do remember you could put an AM radio tuned to 540 (the lowest frequency)
next to your TRS-80, and could time the loops in a basic program to output
interference enough to play music

What is C++? I didn't even hear of C until I got my Apple IIgs (late 80s).


- -- 
Should've been dead on a Sunday morning
banging my head / no time for mourning
ain't got no time  -- Creed
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:24:00 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Keith Supplements Catalog Online

Jerry Paul Sanders posted: 

<<< I've put the Keith Brothers Supplements catalog online. If you'd
like to
take a look, point your browser to:


www.primenet.com/~timmon/supplements.html

Cordially,
Paul Sanders >>>


Thanks for the update, Paul. The info on the site above is greatly
appreciated. Looking forward to getting the goods even if it is
late summer!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 16:23:49 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

>You're still working from an invalid premise. You have to realize that a
>Traveller TL12 computer is not advanced, and is about same level of
>advancement as the computer I'm writing this on.

You have synaptics in your home computer?  Can it calculate a jump?  Where'd 
u get it from?  :-)  Though it may fit the definition of a CT TL12 computer, 
it doubtfully is TL-12 as far as ...better... (:::donning asbestos loin 
cloth:::) versions of Traveller treat it.  ;-)  

>Traveller is _not_ a high tech universe when it comes to computer tech,
>social science, nanotech or biotech .(and possibly several other things as
>well )

Only if you tip toe around such things and wish to overdefine them.  

Biotech could well be presumable in the background (at least proteus viruses 
and panimmunity, etc... not much in GURPS: Biotech beyond the GTL12 hurts 
Traveller's background IMO, which is happily the Imperiums limit- though GT 
could have a helluva time w/ the TL-16/GTL13 worlds out there, of which there 
are more than a few).  The cloning and geneering *IS* canon already.  
Nanotech never "pans out" as much as sci-fi authors drool (though IMTU it 
does work pretty good as a fluid, kinda like the T1000 or Odo, but even that 
is TL17+ (a few "colonies" running around in what was Imperial Space).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 16:30:42 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 

> In a message dated 5/17/99 11:49:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> wombat@premier.net writes:
> 
> << 
>  > Strange...  Merchant Prince characters are usually ex-megacorp vets who 
> enter
>  > the game as crew on tramp freighters, not the other way around... >>
> 
> It's cheaper to pay a brand new 21 year old management trainee straight out 
> of college (and inculcate him/her into your business' culture) than to pay a 
> 40 year old who has a family and demands a much higher salary (and will work 
> less years for you until retiring). This is why age discrimination is rampant 
> in the American workplace. I asume this consideration applies to some extent 
> in the Traveller Megacorps. I could see the Megacorps severely punishing 
> those who go through their training, and then quit to go independent...

Gee, sounds about what they're doing to my character in Roger Barr's PBEM.  
<grin>  Ex-Sharushid corporado who got tired of being passed over and bounced 
around, so decided to pack it after 20 years, only to discover they could 
legally screw him outta his pension because they'd sent him to the minor 
legues a couple times, and he needed 20 years with the parent company.  <grin>

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 16:38:54 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Keith Supplements Catalog Online 

> I've put the Keith Brothers Supplements catalog online. If you'd like to
> take a look, point your browser to:
> 
> 
> www.primenet.com/~timmon/supplements.html
> 
> Cordially,
> Paul Sanders

Paul, I already have Letters of Marque.  Can I get the extras if I order just 
the rest of the package, or do I have to get them all in one swell foop?

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:59:43 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL

From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>

> Jason Kemp wrote:
> > [Excellent description of the "benchmark" interpretation of
> > Traveller TLs deleted]
> >
> > Now, once we crack the non-volatile memory problem (which it may
> > already be done as far as research work, and thus might affect our
> > novelty tech level rating, except we already have higher) and the
> > solution becomes commonplace (which has definitely not happened,
> > based on the number of times I've lost documents over the years),
> > then I see no problem with jumping Earth's computer/robotics tech
> > level assessment to TL 10, solid.
> 
> I'm not sure how "non-volatile memory" is defined viz. the 
> TL chart, but we have a large number of non-volatile memory
> solutions in current use. Your hard disk is one of them; 
> flash EEPROM as found on many digital cameras is another. 

IIRC, non-volatile memory in Traveller does not refer to storage
media such as hard drives, disks, CD-ROMS, etc.  The concept, as I
understand it, seems to indicate that the RAM of the system is
non-volatile.  In other words, you could remove the power from a
computer in the midst of processing a complex equation, then later
(much later, even) restore power to the system, and the computer
would pick right up where it left off, in mid-calculation.  That's
the concept I remember being described (and thus the reason why
simply unplugging a Virus-ridden system won't deactivate the Virus),
but then again, my own memory has been rather faulty of late, so it
might help to check that out.  Specific details/descriptions are
listed under Book 8: Robots, Grand Census, and MT Ref's Companion. 
If I have misunderstood it, and the examples you've provided fit the
description of that classification, then I agree with your assessment
below, and we're looking at TL 9, with a novelty tech level of TL 10.
  Until I've had a chance to look it up, however, I will stand by my
TL 8/novelty TL 10 evaluation earlier.  I am prepared to accept the
change if I have indeed misunderstood the reference, though.

> I would fully support declaring Earth, 1999 AD, to have a 
> solid computer TL of 9, novelty TL of 10. I anxiously await
> Frank Pitt's opinion. :)

For the record, while I don't like the Virus concept and the 
storyline that went along with it, I must admit that the Virus _as I 
understand it_ does seem to remain "internally consistent" with the 
Traveller milieu technology, _as described by the various Traveller 
products over the last two decades_.  I can also see why people have 
difficulty with it due to the current nature and capacities of the 
computer industry.  I personally don't like the Virus concept and 
find certain faults with it in a Real World (tm) sense, but _within 
the Traveller milieu as described by Traveller products_, I must 
admit that it is "internally consistent."

Fortunately for me, the Virus struck the Traveller milieu after the 
time periods I prefer to play in, and thus, is not that great a 
concern to me.  Should that change, for some reason, then I'll deal 
with it, Berserker style, or skip it by carrying my milieu through 
the Long Dark Night (AKA the Second Long Night) in which the Virus is 
effectively eradicated, and pull out the Fourth Imperium.  Or I could 
follow the GT official alternate timeline, where there exists little 
need to develop and release the Virus, and bypass that 
situation all-together.  MTU, of course, YMMV.

Thanks for your time.  I now return you to your regularly scheduled 
thread, already in progress...

Keep On Travellin',
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 17:15:52 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Psionic Virus (Was:A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans)

<snip>

> This is the best expanation of Virus I have ever read.  It neatly cuts the 
ground out 
> from under all the "Virus can't do that arguments."  You may need to rule 
if only 

Those stink anyways.  ;-)

> "life" can have Psionics in your Traveller universe.  If so then Virus is
> alive & can therefore be detercted psionically via lifesense which is one 
of the 
> longest range psionic powers.  This may have significant implications in 
detecting 
> Virus.  However canon reference to using Computer Empathy to combat Virus
> suggest it is more difficult than that.

Well there's already a canon (Smash & Grab) mention of Virus possessing 
psionics... or at least emulating psionic effects (see RSBs Ref's Section 
discussion of psionics).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 17:23:17 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Virus debate

> I've been listening in over the past week or so on the "Great Virus
> Debate" waiting for it to devolve into the "Great Virus Flame War"
> something which generally seems to happen on about week number three.

Yeah.  Especially now that I have time for email.  :-)

> You all make good points on what I agree is definitely a very arguable
> and controversial point.  Many people don't like the Virus, some people
> do, I admit I like the Virus I just try not to think to hard about it's
> MO because if I did I'd have to work through all the other logic /
> reality problems in the game as well like Jump Drive, Contra Grav,
> Artificial Gravity, Reactionless Thrusters.  Well you get the point.

Well u're a TNE'er so AG and Reactionless Thrusters are already out.  :-)  
CG, at least in FF&S, doesn't appear *too* far fetched (the "nullification" 
method). 

> With Virus the point is, it exists in the literature there for we have
> to accept it the hard part for many of us is figuring out the "WHY" and
> "HOW," that's what I think we should be focusing on here not the "why it
> can't" and "how impossible it is."

Yeah, but you have people who, just like with drop tanks and any other 
innovation on the Traveller, who just don't want it to work.  Ironically, 
it's alot of the same people, w/ the same dead arguments.  :-)

> 1)  They're still using silicon.

Mmm... i don't think so.  Definately have "organic cores" and synaptics 
floating around in any case.  Maybe for the case.  ;-)  

> 2)  They're likely considerably faster, however the tables presented in
> FF&S 1 and 2 really don't bear this out.  They're larger, heavier, more
> expensive and only give you a maintenance modifier that's in the
> neighborhood of three times more effective.

Well that's for starship models that have a helluva lot more to do.  A more 
appropriate analogy is maybe the implant computers from FF&S.  It'd be nice 
if we had some sizes on these.  See the article Jon Goff did on computers, on 
his website.

> What do we know about Virus.
> 
> 1) It's a silicon based life form.

It's primitive cave man ancestor was a silicon based life form.

> 2) It is capable of imprinting it's pattern on other pieces of silicon
> from a distance.

The "cave chip" ancestor.

> 3) It has been engineered as a weapon and as such is familiar with all
> Imperial methods of virus (hacker created) detection.

Engineered to TL16-17 (the canonical level of AI, according to numerous 
sources: B8, MT Ref's Comp, etc etc).

I don't necessarily agree w/ the rest, either, though am willing to quibble.  
Still have about 20 digests to go through...  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 17:34:21 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Virus debate

> If Virus was a silicon lifeform, why would it compete for the few nanograms
> of silicon in computer chips and ignore the billions of tons of silicon in
> planetary crusts?

Maybe not in a usable form.  Virus is eons (evolutionarily) from the 
Cymbeline predator.  Why didn't the cymbeline predator inhabit the entire 
planet?  I don't have that adventure...

> 2) Think about this a moment.  Virus is able to propagate itself purely
> electromagnetically. Unlike a Cymbeline chip, it is able to reproduce
> itself at a distance through communication channels, even sensor scans.

Sensor scans is mentioned as "theoretical" in Survival Margin, but not 
established definately anywhere.  In fact, SM notes that it *hasn't* happened 
(at least known).

> Virus does not reproduce by altering circuit patterns. An uninfected
> computer and one infected by Virus are totally indistinguishable, even to

Except for the "hidey hole" which is an explicity mention everywhere Virus is 
mentioned beyond just its personality. There's also "firewalling" to protect 
against an invading strain ala Vampire Fleet's electronic combat system.

> technicians who dismantle the electronics. Sandman in Vampire Fleets was
> able to move from machine to machine without sharing a single atom from
> each of its incarnations.  Yet it was still accepted as the "same" entity.

Sandman's a little different.  The only times he moves systems is in the end. 
 To "prove" himself, he *says* he deletes himself from the Skywatch system.  
Who's to say he doesn't have another backup/clone?  :-)  I know it's 
presented that he didn't, but would you trust humans that much, if u were him?

> Moreover, Virus didn't seem to be too concerned about avoiding detection
> since it did things like blow up starships and make robots go berzerk.
> People tend to notice things like this. Virus' main defense was that it is

It didn't do that until it was in most systems for *months* being deciedly 
unobtrusive in the meantime, especially so it watch silently and see how 
everything worked.

> essentially invulnerable; physically disconnecting or even reformatting
> infected computers had no effect.

Because of the "hidey hole."  

> 4) Ignoring the issue of why enemy goverments would use Imperial black
> boxes to identify all their ships, or why a transponder would be "plugged

Noone has every said all their ships, just the ones that want to enter the 
Imperial borders.  Course, this gets messy pretty quick, anyways.  ;-)

> into all the ships vital functions", virus can't be the Deyo chip. If it

Not into all vital functions, just to the main computer, which Traveller has 
always had pluged into everything anyways.  Especially in the SoM, though I 
don't buy that fully, so neither should u.  ;-)

> was, every ship would already have Virus on board and would not need to be
> "infected" to become active. The billions of other electronic devices
> without Deyo transponders would have been immune. This is not how Virus
> works. While the Deyo chips may provide an efficient access point to Virus,
> it can no more be Virus than an automobile can be human because humans use
> them for transportation.

The Deyo chips is just a "familiar" and very convenient place for Virus to 
infect.  Not necessary, though. 

> Since computer damage does not totally incapacitate the ship under any
> Traveller combat rules, starships must not be completely controlled by one
> single computer. Things like drives, weapons systems, and sensors would be
> computers in their own right and require being infected separately.
> Infected transponders must be only a tiny part of any Virus control.

The SoM has each main system having a "local CPU," which does make sense.  
Also a direct connect to the main computers.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:50:12 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Sector Data

Mon, 17 May 1999 23:56:13 -0500, Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>

I have moved twice since I accessed it 5 years ago, but they
had pointers and it apparently ended up at....
ftp://mac9.ucc.nau.edu/pub/Misc/rpg/traveller/sectors/

>Where did you get this data?
>
>"David P. Summers" wrote:
>
>> A while back I down loaded sector data for all the imperial sectors
>> from a site someplace.  One of the headings of this data "PBG" which is 3
>> digit numbers.  Can anyone tell me what this is?

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 22:02:21 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

>I *knew* we'd see another display of incoherence from you, really, though the 
>best is yet to come, i'm sure  ;-)  This time you were rather coherent, 
>though, if narrow minded and inflexble.  You seem to be unable to get your 
>mind out of the TL8 (GTL7) rut you're stuck in.  Your "experience" w/ 20th 
>century computers has put u in a cage as far as 57th century computers are 
>concerned.
>


And your reliance to techno-magic is equallity predictable.  It works
because YOU say it does.  You argue against logic with the 'logic' that
future systems are so far beyond us that we can not understand them.  BUNK!
Logic is logic regardless of the media.  A computer in order to be called a
computer must be able to evaluate mathamatical and logical operations as
that is part of the definition.  That set curtain limits whether you like it
or not.



>> >Who knows?  I'd say it depends on how the comps work to begin w/, which has
>> >not be detailed (nor will it).  How do GURPS TL9+ comps work?  The same as
>> >GTL7s?
>> >
>> 
>> Executable and non executable must be flaged in ANY system.  It comes down
>> to the diference between data and code.  One is operated on and the otehr is
>> the operater.  TL will not change this.
>
>How do you KNOW this will apply?  This ignores even some obsuricities and 
>theory from *today* much less a couple thousand years in teh future.  The 

No, it does not.  Please quote your source, recongised technical journals
only please.

>human brain definately doesn't appear to follow that hard cut rule, and 

Wrong again.  Nerves are two state devices acording to current research.



>Even playing along w/ you, Virus is "inside" the computer.  Inside it's 
>world, it can manipulate the flags as easily as you can scratch your ass.  At 

Not as sensor data it can not.  Until it is up and running as an executeable
it's in limbo like a person in a low birth.  Data does nothing it is worked
upon.



>> That is a load of CRAP! for several reasons.
>
>heh heh.  Easy there, khihe.  Don't blow a blood vessel.
>

You need not worry.  I am not upset.  It is a load of crap.
 
>> First, an instruction runs at a fixed rate determined by the clock rate of
>> the exectuting system.  The viruses instruction are no different that those
>> of the system itself.  They run at the same speed because it is the system
>> that set the instruction list.  That is why you have to recompile programs
>> for different platforms.  The instruction sets are fixed by the command
>> processors.
>
>Again, trapped in TL-8.  There is NO Virus "instruction."  Virus *lives* 
>inside the system.  As a power surge, free-floating program, or whatever.  
>Those same little electrical pulses that make you the... sophont... known as 
>Charles Prevatte, maybe.
>You can have no argument against synaptics since you don't know how they work 
>(and are a ready made Bill Gates if you do...).
>

Of course I do.  The concept is at least a decade old.  Hardware and
software implementations have been in use atleast that long.  Where have you
been?  Don't you keep up?  Oh, maybe the real name is the problem.  They are
called neural nets now.

>> Second, inorder for the virsus to become executable it would have to be
>> flaged as an execuable.  Any security system will moniter the executables
>> list for that very reason.  As long as the virus is data it is in supended
>> animation and can take no action.
>
>Virus can switch the flags.  Like waving your hand.  It can also burn it's 
>own circutry and disconnect your security system (probably taking over the 
>ICE, ala HIV and T-cells) or cut routes around the security system, assuming 
>they'd have any effect to begin with.
>

And exactly what is YOUR technical reasoning behind this?  How did it go
from senor data 'like a picture' to a program that has OS level systems
resorces?  And do not say because it's alive.  That is to much like saying
it's magic.  You are alive, that does not give you absolute control over the
entire earth and all that tread upon it which is what you are saying the
virus has in it's world.

>> Third, programs today are being assembled by smart compilers that optomise
>> the code for the system they were design to run on.  These compilers have
>> millions of hours of experience in compiling to these systems.  I find it
>> hard to believe that the virus with little or no experience with the systems
>> being attacked can match purpose built optomising compilers.
>
>"Today."  Course, playing along w/ you, Survival Margin (pg 75) says that the 

And you have yet to PROVE that the rules of today will NOT apply.  You
insist my real world model is wrong and expect me to take your word only for
it yet you refuse to even contempate that todays' model might hold up or
that we are much higher that TL8 in computer technology.

>Virus was already extensively trained/designed to take over every standard 
>Imperial compute configuration (which had been standardized in an "Imperial 
>Data Package which covered everything from graphite pencils to radial tires 
>to starship software").  For non Imperial computers, once inside a peripheral 

Agreed. I already said that a concideravle level of standardization was
required or the virus would have been harmless.

>systme, Virus would watch how they worked.  It would do *nothing* after 
>carving out it's "hidey hole" except watch how the OS worked and learn how to 
>manipulate it.
>

That's putting the cart before the horse.  It would have to have a very good
knowledge of the OS to make that hidey hole.

>Remember, one of the core principle of Virus is for it to be able to burn 
>it's own circutry over existing circuity, based on the method of the 
>Cymbeline predator, just on a larger scale.  *Hardware* not software 

And that in itself is not posible based on the discription in the adventure!
The chips have to have DIRECT contact with the silicon it was to take over.

>modification.  Once it's in the system, that's the first thing it does.  
>Shutting down and reformating, by whatever method the computers do that is 
>fine, but a Virus will come right out of it's hidey hole and reinfect.  Alot 
>quicker than you can blink your eyes (though sometimes I imagine u do that 
>pretty slow).  : P
>

That's where you're first operation is a total memory purge.  If a section
can't be purged you physically remove it.

>> >> 3) Who tells the recieving unit that the assembled code is an executable?
>> >
>> >It's not an "executable."  Stop thinking in TL8 (GTL7) terms.  Say that
>> >computers don't operate like anything you're familiar with.  For one, they
>> >have organic cores, and I doubt you have experience w/ them.
>> >
>> 
>> That is strawman crap.  There will always be a delineation between data and
>
>To be a strawman, I would have to have put that up for you to knock it down, 
>which wasn't the case.  Stop using words because they look cool to you.  ;-)  
>I'll stop short of accusing u of plagarism.  ;-)
>

It is a strawman concept because it is unsuportable and a diversion form the
basic concepts.  If you prefer I call it something else.  I'll use the term
I prefer instead of the more polite one, It's CRAP!  Look up the word
computer.  It is a curtain thing based on it's definition.  It has to be
that thing or it is not a computer.  If we are discussing 'a not computer'
you could be right.

>> code.  Unless you can explain how to 'execute' the Encyclopedea Britannica!
>
>No crap.  But do you live "inside" a computer?  Nope (though I'm starting to 
>wonder. lol).  What does data and code "look" like on the "inside?"  If you 
>could directly manipulate it w/ your "will" or "hand" or whatever it would be 
>intuitive to you.  Too bad it's not.
>

OK, you asked for it.  Prepare to have your logic destroyed.

I 'live' in this world.  I do not have the power to take control of any
aspect of it that I choose to because there are rules that are bigger than I
am that define the world and what I am.  I can not change those rules.  Just
as the virus can not change the fact that it is ONLY a very high tech.
program that must be running for it to take any action.  Untill it is
running it is like I would be in a low birth (if such existed.  I am
inserting this because of your unpleasent habit of twisting any short cut a
person takes in responding to you to try and boondoggle, humiliate, taunt,
or generally belittle them into conceeding the point to you just so they can
egnore all your future posts)

>> Just out of curiousity, fow much assebly code have you written?  If you have
>> not written any then most of what I have just said will not make anty sence
>> to you.  The fact is processors MUST have their instruction fed to them in
>> the exactly correct format or they will error out into an error handling
>> system (if they do not crash or hang.)
>
>I haven't written any, though I've taken a CS class or 3, it does make "anty" 

So now you are taking cheep shots at my typographical errors?  What's next
spelling?

>sense to me.  I'm not debating anything you're saying (though I could take 
>out some theories, but it seems others have beat me to it) about *todays* 

Not so far, be my quest.  I design computers for a living.  I have dozens
system designs under my belt.

>computer theory nor even the basic principles.  You're completely closed 
>minded in allowing any improvisation around them based on your narrowminded 
>view (and absurd conclusions).  Have you joined the anti-Drop Tank ranks?  :-)
>

Of course not.  The use of drop tanks is a logical extention within what is
known of the system, though their 'logic' depend greatly on your assumptions
of the implications of canonal sources.  I am neutral in the drop tank
debate until I find a canonal 'smoking gun' if such exists.

>> >> 4) What sane person would let unknown persons remote load a progam and
>> >> remote ececute it on their ships main computer?
>> >
>> >Noone did it voluntarily or even finding out till many months later.
>> 
>> They had to!  As long as the virus was 'data' it was inactive.  To run, it
>> had to be executed.  Basic security procedures would not allow an unlisted
>> and unverified executable run on a military system.
>
>They had to?  Remember there's a transponder that's linked to the main 
>computer?  Straight from transponder chatter (way before any squawks) to the 
>main comp, to a hidey hole.  Even ships w/ a mute can't stop their ships 
>transponder from reading others.  It's still infectible, just can't infect 
>until the mute is turned off.
>

If the transponder has execute acess to the main computer you are correct.
That computer is toast.  If the transponder is a 'chip entity' then it can
become the 'hidey hole' itself.  I've said this in my own theory of virus
operation.  Are you reading all of this and the related threads or are you
just skimming?  I am NOT anti-virus.  I am just trying to better define it.
In fact if anything I think canon has the virus greatly underpowered.  It
behaves very stupidly.

>> >Transponder (which consists of two lobotimized cymbeline predators) chatter
>> >(w/ direct access to commo and computers) was the primary vector of
>> >transmission.  Virus is not a "program."  It's a life form that lives in
>> >electronics.  The next vector was computer controlled tight beam commo
>> >(accuracies measured in attoradians, doppler shift correction, encoding and
>> >decoding, etc).
>> >
>> 
>> NOT RELAVENT.  If it is the 'chip lifeform' it must have physical contact
>
>It's surely "relavent" in that it isn't a "chip lifeform" either.  It's eons 
>above them evolutionary, as Lucan's scientists did in the lab (they had an 

If so them why is it so stupid?  It's different I give you that.  More
advanced, I dout it.

>extraordinary mutation rate, according to Survival Margin).  It's an 
>electronic lifeform.  Get enough space in a signal (and/or series of signals) 
>hidden in the tremendous amounts of data required for tightbeam commo from 
>hundreds of thousands of km, and it's actually moving to the new system.  No 
>"executable" to run.  It's actually "jumped" to the new system (actually 
>replicated, since the original personality has stayed in it's system). 
>

That stuff is data.  Gata does not control anything directly.  It would be
as if you swallowed a glass vile of poison.  As long as the glass is intact
you are safe.

>Remember, the transponder method of infection completely circumvents *all* of 
>your objections (though they don't hold water against the way Virus works, 

I said that serveral times.

>just on your (incorrect) interpretation of it).  Every ship w/ a transponder 

Prove it is (incorrect).

Every 3I ship except pirates, yes.

>was ready made for the Virus, though unintentionally.  The SDG suite was a 
>familiar location (being a lobotmized embryonic Cymbeline predator) in an 
>alien electronics system in which to grow and develop and proceed *directly* 
>into the ship's computer.
>
>> and the proper enviroment to overwrite the circuits.  If it come over the
>> comm it is a program that must run to realign the neural network to have the
>> same effect.  If it must run it has to be seen by the system as an
>> executable file.  That means the code inside that file must be error free
>> for the system that it is to run on, have executable status, and on a secure
>> system it must be on the run list with the correct check sum or CRC as a
>> minimum.  If I were the Sysop, I would require that it also be in ROM
>> storage and that it be run fron that ROM storage or if it were a learning
>> program then it would have to have an unbroken evolution history back to the
>> ROM version that is in storage and pass a history profile checksum and/or 
>CRC.
>
>Unfortunately, you the Sysop, are told to shut your hole and plug the 
>transponder into your computer to comply with Imperial regulations.  
>

I've said that the transponder is the back door into the system.

>> >> 5) Are there no computer security people in the traveller universe?
>> >
>> >Sure, but they're at an inherent disadvantage operating outside of their 
>own
>> >evironment against a life form in it's own.  Especially when they don't 
>know
>> >it's there and find they have no computer references to viruses or 
>combating
>> >them (the first thing Virus would do is delete or corrupt such 
>information).
>> >This is in the "dormant" phase.
>> >
>> 
>> And any secure system worth the name would detect the change with it's next
>> CRC pass and set off alarms.
>
>What changes?  There are no checksums.  Blah blah.  Get out of your TL-8 

So that system is so ADVANCED, and yet a basic technique used as far back as
1950 would protect it against this virus and it is not used.  Yeah, right.
They did not lobotomize the 'chips', they lobotomised the 3Is engineers!

>computer prison.  This was mentioned by Survival Margin too.  You have read 

I own a copy of the book.  There is not mention of the nature of the
security systems.  CRC is NEVER mentioned.

>the book, haven't you?  lol.  Or at least "When Empires Fall?"  The only 
>thing visible would've been power spikes as Virus was cutting new circutry.  

Which would trip the overcurrent, and/or watchdog system on any reasonable
designed system.

>Noone but Lucan's scientists would've known what it meant, though.  It's 

In the first few months, true.  Also if the burn in power were from the
transponder's curcuits the transponder controled by the virus could cover
those spikes particularly if it did the 'burn in' while in system and hide
the surges as transmitter bursts.

>inconceivable fo ryou to believe the last paragraph of Survival Margin, pg 
>74?  The relevant sentence is, for teh sake of brevity, "In the realm of 
>measure, counter-measure, counter-counter-measure, 
>counter-counter-counter-measure, there is always a small window of 
>opportunity for the latest system."  
>

Actually, no.  That applies only under a narrow set of conditions in the
real world.  A true secured system is all but unbeatable to hackers and
viruses (in the real world).  The transponder makes ship systems NOT secure
so this does not apply.

>> As for the programers being 'out of their enviroment', yes and no.  Even
>> with just a consol the only diference is the speed scale and the person has
>> the advantage of haveing all the technical data on the system.  The virus is
>> in a strage new enviroment it's self.  With a neural jack and military ICE
>> the programer is ready for WAR!
>
>Now you're bringing neural jacks into it?  Let Virus infect the programmer?? 
>lol
>

Exactly!  If he looses, it is a posiblity.

>> Nope, see above.  There will aways be a difference between data and code.
>> The code MUST be in the processors command code format.  Data does not have
>> to be.
>
>*Have to be* but *could* be.  To say nothing of the fact that Virus might be 

True, I've said that.  You are way behind on this discussion.

>able to switch the flags, even if there was the set difference.
>

Not until it can execute!  Codes change flags, not data.

>> >> 9) The only way the the virus could reconfigure the computers circuitry 
>is
>> >> if the circuitry was designed to be reconfigured during operation, like a
>> >
>> >Which it is.
>> >
>> 
>> But the virus must be an executable to do so.
>
>When you're reconfiguring the physical circutry, this is not a problem, 
>ignoring your TL-8 rut.  ;-)
>

True, but you still have not explained how the virus in the SEALED
transponder gained physical direct access to the computers bare silicon
which is required of the chips lifeforms as state in the canon that
introduced them.

>> >> 10) FIBs would be immune as well as their composition is as alien to the
>> >> chips as is our human biology.
>> >
>> >Only for the low tech computers.  The rest operates the same (synaptics, 
>self
>> >programming, etc).
>> >
>> 
>> And the FIB will load all it's programs from it's own ROM to start with and
><snip>
> 
>It's the same.  They operate the same.  Part of Imperial standardization.  
>Besides, most ships w/ Fb comps don't have St comps (what's the point?  If 
>you're expecting EMP, your St's will be shut down...)
>

And the burn in to the 'chips' would not work on the FIBs.  Different
materials and no physical contact, only light pipes.

>> >> shielded hard wired backups to all critical systems.  These would also be
>> >> immune to the virus as they would have to be EM shielded and EM is the
>> >> method of infection for the virus.
>> >
>> 
>> >It is?  It's news to me.  lol.
>> >
>> 
>> IT'S THE EMERGENCY BACK UP!  Of course it will be as fail safe and protected
>
>Easy there, khihe.   Just yanking your chain.  Besides the fact, that wasn't 
>what I was referring to (but EM shielding stopping a Virus transmission- all 
>u need to do is yank out your transponder and not accept the tightbeam commo).
>

As I have said.




>> 
>> I read that and that was not what I was refering to.  I ment that the virus
>> did not infiltrate far enough into sociaty to strike a death blow.  It
>
>Your quote contradicts that:
><<the boogyman of traveller.  Instead of the grab control of everything and
>kill story that was presented it could have been the 'ghost in the machine'
>that first infiltrated nearly everything before reaking havok.  This way it>>
>
>> showed it's hand to early.  It stared killing ships with two weeks, IIRC.
>
>Two weeks?  Where you came up w/ that is beyond me.  LOL.  Not from Survival 
>Margin, though if you count malfuctions (misjumps) it could.  It didn't 
>"kill" ships ala Vampires till the Collapse (months afterwards), AFAIK.
>

Yes, survival margin.  Read the history of the first fleet infected.  Ships
had to be abbandonded or disappear in jump within a few weeks.

>> >> could have taken secret control of the automated factories and wrote it's
>> >> code into systems as they were being built.  It would have been 
>simplicity
>> >> itself to set a date say 5 years after it's first release for D-day.  The
>> >> sudden attack everywhere at teh same time would have been far more 
>effective
>> >> than what happened in cannon and more believeable as well.
>> >
>> >Um... that's exactly how it happened.  Reread Survival Margin, please.  
>What
>> >you describe matches exactly Survival Margin pg 74 and 75.  I don't know 
>what
>> >"cannon" you've been reading..
>> 
>> I did, that is not how it is documented.  It jumped mainly through the comm
>
>It is too.  You want me to quote the whole thing?  Or is this another book 
>not "available" to you to participate in the discussion and you're faking the 
>funk?
>

I do not understand the above.  I have Vampire fleets for curtain and
survival margin,  IIRC.  I'm trying to fill in the gaps.

>> system ant that is where I have the problem.  I'm not saying that a 'seed'
>> could not be past imbeded in some program that would in time infect
>> thousands of systems.  I'm saying the what is atributed to the virus is not
>> the pattern that such a weapon would take.  The infection was first to fast
>
>Design one and prove it.  Well... You'll just refuse to put up or shut up.  
>

First, I would NEVER write a virus.  I am NOT that stupid!  Secong you would
just say it TL8 not TL13 so what is the point?  Sence you are not willing to
let current TL act as proof NO real world test will prove anything.

>> and second not pervasive enough.  There was never an explaination of how it
>> got arround the security systems.  There are hundred of small mistakes that
>
>There was too.  You obviously didn't catch it (duh), though, and i'm hardly 
>surprised by your inattention to detail, which I've become used to.  It's 
>explicitly explained on pg 78, 2nd column, 3rd paragraph.  Must've missed it, 
>huh?
>

What book?  SM?  I save this and check it next week.

As for detail YOU miss the part about 'physical contact' being required and
the silicon is specified as the specific media.

>> just add up to incansistances that make the virus as is unbelieveable.
>
>Hundreds huh?  Care to list em?  None of your "incansistances" hold any 
>water.  Strawmen?  That's the ticket.
>
>
>Gary
>

I agree, under your assumption any "incansistances" would be strawmen as
they are inconsistant with todays technology.  Though I could be wrong in
that as the spread on the virus was also curtailed by the limits of jump and
the time before the first generation of the virus self distructed.


By the way if you want my spelling to improve you should include the correct
spelling when you quote my pour spelling.  I;m an engineer not an english
major.  If you want to push in that area, I'll turn your text over to my SO.
She has her masters in English.  You are a doofer compared to her.  She does
the proof reading for me when I need to release something more formal than
email on a hobbie mail server.

By the way sorry for the random snips.  My mail editer has an momory limit
for the length of one email.  I needed to make room for my responces.

Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #642
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 18 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 643



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Sector Data
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #640
Please, PLEASE unsubscribe me from your mailing list! 
re: Car Rental
Re: Sector Data...
Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)
Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL
Re: RealLift(tm) Military Clearinghouse...
Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)
4 Sale: Various odds & ends...
Analog Aliens Take 2
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Sector Data 
Re: Non-volatile memory...
Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)
MT enhanced character generation
Re: Computer Technology
Use of the Term "Gold-Plated [tm]"
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Computer Technology
Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)
Re: Computer Technology
Book Seven (was...Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I))
OTU Cannon (was "Re: Computer Technology")
Fwd: [Fwd: an American joke]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:13:18 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Sector Data

Ahhh...so that's where the old NAU archive ended up! Glad to see it
wasn't lost!

David P. Summers wrote:
> 
> Mon, 17 May 1999 23:56:13 -0500, Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
> 
> I have moved twice since I accessed it 5 years ago, but they
> had pointers and it apparently ended up at....
> ftp://mac9.ucc.nau.edu/pub/Misc/rpg/traveller/sectors/
> 
> >Where did you get this data?
> >
> >"David P. Summers" wrote:
> >
> >> A while back I down loaded sector data for all the imperial sectors
> >> from a site someplace.  One of the headings of this data "PBG" which is 3
> >> digit numbers.  Can anyone tell me what this is?
> 
> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu
> (This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 16:19:41 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #640

>>>> (begin quoted material)
Now, once we crack the non-volatile memory problem (which it may 
already be done as far as research work, and thus might affect our 
novelty tech level rating, except we already have higher) and the 
solution becomes commonplace (which has definitely not happened, 
based on the number of times I've lost documents over the years), 
then I see no problem with jumping Earth's computer/robotics tech 
level assessment to TL 10, solid.

That my two credits, for whatever it's worth to you.

Thanks for your time,
Jason
>>>> (end quoted material)
One of the Star Trek:TNG novels visits the issue of non-volotile memory
in computers (Title:  Survivors).  The idea was that Federation
computers use memory that can't be changed, only added to.  So, when you
delete a file, it still exists, there is just a pointer to the file
saying it is deleted and to ignore it.  That is actually true of most
magnetic media today, but with magnetic media you can overwrite old
data.  Only physical destruction of memory structures would actually
"delete" a file in this type of non-volotile memory.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 18:50:45 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Please, PLEASE unsubscribe me from your mailing list! 

unsubscribe from mailing list PLEASE!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 23:29:10 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Car Rental

"Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> wrote:
>Better yet, bringing the full talents of the tech support department to
>bear to make the new networked HP printer capable of printing on 11x17
>paper, then having the chief techie say something like "Whew, that sure did
>take a lot of man-hours to get working right, what did you need it for
>anyway?".
>
>I mean, I just made the one casual remark that I couldn't get it working,
>how did I know it would take two guys 3 hours each to get it up and
>running?  I just wanted it for deckplans!

;-)


A0 roll fed colour 600 dpi Ink jet at work....

Maybe I should do some deckplans ;-/

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:24:18 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Sector Data...

- -----Original Message-----
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, 18 May 1999 11:50
Subject: Re: Sector Data


>>People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
>>  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
>
>I'd like to see some of these PETA types try their tactics (eg,
>throwing paint or a vial of blood) against some leather-clad
>bikers. In fact, I'd pay money to see that and the inevitable
>response...
>
>ObTrav: are there any such groups operating in the 3I? Other than
>the K'Kree, of course...
>
>

No doubt there is... use our imagination and there will be hundreds!

- --  The Roc
     (Save the whales, collect the set)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 18:05:51 -0500
From: Jason Kemp <flynn1@centurion.flash.net>
Subject: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)

I wrote previously:

>IIRC, non-volatile memory in Traveller does not refer to storage
>media such as hard drives, disks, CD-ROMS, etc.  The concept, as I
>understand it, seems to indicate that the RAM of the system is
>non-volatile.  In other words, you could remove the power from a
>computer in the midst of processing a complex equation, then later
>(much later, even) restore power to the system, and the computer
>would pick right up where it left off, in mid-calculation.  That's
>the concept I remember being described (and thus the reason why
>simply unplugging a Virus-ridden system won't deactivate the Virus),
>but then again, my own memory has been rather faulty of late, so it
>might help to check that out.  Specific details/descriptions are
>listed under Book 8: Robots, Grand Census, and MT Ref's Companion. 
>If I have misunderstood it, and the examples you've provided fit the
>description of that classification, then I agree with your assessment
>below, and we're looking at TL 9, with a novelty tech level of TL 10.
>  Until I've had a chance to look it up, however, I will stand by my
>TL 8/novelty TL 10 evaluation earlier.  I am prepared to accept the
>change if I have indeed misunderstood the reference, though.

Now that I'm home, I can look up the description of non-volatile memory.
Here goes:

From Book 8, Robots, pg 18, under the Robot Brain:
Tech Level 9:  Non-volatile computer memories become common, so that no
power supply is needed to preserve data when the computer is shut off.
Computers can now be stored powerless for years, and yet pick up where they
left off as soon as power is resumed.

From MT's Referee's Companion, pg 30:
Tech Level 9 (circa 2010):  Non-volatile computer memories become common,
so that no power supply is needed to preserve data when the computer is
shut off.  Computers can now be stored powerless for years, and yet pick up
where they left off as soon as power is resumed.  Practical superconductors
allow a significant increase in processing speeds.

While the language of the text could be liberally interpretted to cover
storage media, I am pre-disposed to interpret the above to refer to the
actual memory accessed and utilized by the CPU, as both texts refer to
storage media specifically as data storage, not memory.

So I still feel we're at Computer/Robotics TL8, with a big step towards TL
10 going on.  Once the non-volatile memory situation exists, we have the
remaining benchmarks for TL 9, and once voice transcription becomes
commonplace, we'll be at TL 10.

Thanks,
Jason

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 18:53:23 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL

>
> IIRC, non-volatile memory in Traveller does not refer to storage
> media such as hard drives, disks, CD-ROMS, etc.  The concept, as I
> understand it, seems to indicate that the RAM of the system is
> non-volatile.  In other words, you could remove the power from a
> computer in the midst of processing a complex equation, then later
> (much later, even) restore power to the system, and the computer
> would pick right up where it left off, in mid-calculation.

My uncle had a feature in his computer that burned the memory into a
specific section of his hard drive and when it booted up, everything was
reloaded into memory.  Even disregarding that (which is a software fix),
we've got eeprom (sp?) which allows you to electronically program and
reprogram a chip.  REALLY expensive, but doable.  I don't know how fast
that is, but if one assumes the relatively slow eeprom memory is standard
aboard starships (for safety concerns) then it explains their cost and low
efficiency.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:13:47 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: RealLift(tm) Military Clearinghouse...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Smart, David J (David) <dasmart@lucent.com>
To: 'traveller@mpgn.com' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, 19 May 1999 12:36
Subject: Re: RealLift(tm) Military Clearinghouse


Was there a URL for this mob, I must have missed it if there was?

- --  The Roc


>
>Any of you think I'm kidding? Ballistica Maximus has a very extensive
>explosives section, including loaded M180 mortars. Pity their ground
>vehicles section is temporarily down; I was hoping to see if they have
>any T-72s available..just for rush hour in Dallas. No, really!
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 17:14:50 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)

Jason Kemp wrote:
> 
> So I still feel we're at Computer/Robotics TL8, with a big step towards TL
> 10 going on.  Once the non-volatile memory situation exists, we have the
> remaining benchmarks for TL 9, and once voice transcription becomes
> commonplace, we'll be at TL 10.

Just to be a bit contrarian, here...while there are software solutions,
notably Dragon systems' stuff, that does _primitive_ voice
transcription...it is limited, and needs a prolonged training period.

We're a _heck_ of a long way from walking up to a computer and saying:

 "Aye, computair, Chief Engineer Scott here. Print me out a wee copy of
those jump drive 12b slash 6, no make that 12b slash 7 control module
plans on the big printer over there by the Xerox machine. No, I dinna
need it in 3D, I want the flat schematics."

and getting what you want.

_That_ is TL-10 voice transcrption: where you can use any computer
essentially all the time using voice not a keyboard.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 17:08:04 -0700
From: Jerry Paul Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: 4 Sale: Various odds & ends...

Now that spring semester has ended and I am waiting for the summer one to
start, I have time to clean out my closet. I have the following Traveller
items for sale (this is not an auction). 

*****

Classic Traveller Supplements

	Alien Module 1: "Aslan"
	$12 (Good condition)

	Alien Module 3: "Vargr"
	$12 (Good condition)

	Alien Module 8: "Darrians"
	$12 (Good condition)

MegaTraveller Magazines

	Travellers' Digest 11
	$10 (Good condition)
	
	Travellers' Digest 12
	$8 (Partial cover seperation, otherwise good condition)	

	Travellers' Digest 14
	$10 (Good condition)

MegaTraveller Computer Games 

	MegaTraveller 1: "The Zhodani Conspiracy"
	$12 (DOS & Amiga disks, boxed, excellent condition)
	
	MegaTraveller 2: "Quest for the Ancients"	 
	$12 (DOS & Amiga disks, boxed, excellent condition) 

*****

Well sell either individually, or the entire lot for $85 (a $3 savings).
Postage is $3 for a single item, or $5 for the first three items ordered. 
If you buy the entire lot, then postage is free (a $10 savings).

Please email all inquires to me off of the list at: timmon@primenet.com

Cordially,
Paul Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:53:36 -0400
From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
Subject: Analog Aliens Take 2

Hmmm...planet Ajax sounds a bit like Singapore, which has piss detectors in
their elevators, which, if piss is detected, automatically lock the doors
and go to the ground floor to await the police.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 01:19:22 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

On Tue, 18 May 1999 07:07:11 -0400, Black ICE
<wombat@premier.net> wrote:

>OTOH, one could also use the acronym KISS for "Keep It Stemple,
>Stupid!"  The premise that the von Neumann computer paradigm is replaced
>in Traveller by the so-called Stemple paradigm is the subject of an
>article found, IIRC, in Joe Heck's Missouri Archives (I may be wrong;
>I'm using a new machine, so I don't have any of my old bookmarks to
>check this).

The Traveller Solution Series, #1.  Definitely can be found at
Freelance Traveller, under "Doing It My Way".

URL http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
or  http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm

That doesn't mean that it's _not_ in The Missouri Archives, just
that this is the place where I'm dead certain it _is_.


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 21:09:31 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Sector Data 

> Ahhh...so that's where the old NAU archive ended up! Glad to see it
> wasn't lost!
> 
> David P. Summers wrote:
> > 
> > Mon, 17 May 1999 23:56:13 -0500, Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
> > 
> > I have moved twice since I accessed it 5 years ago, but they
> > had pointers and it apparently ended up at....
> > ftp://mac9.ucc.nau.edu/pub/Misc/rpg/traveller/sectors/
> > 
> > >Where did you get this data?
> > >
> > >"David P. Summers" wrote:
> > >
> > >> A while back I down loaded sector data for all the imperial sectors
> > >> from a site someplace.  One of the headings of this data "PBG" which is 3
> > >> digit numbers.  Can anyone tell me what this is?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

I notice there's no Reavers' Deep info there...
- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 11:26:47 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Non-volatile memory...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, 19 May 1999 10:43
Subject: Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)


>Jason Kemp wrote:
>>
>> So I still feel we're at Computer/Robotics TL8, with a big step towards
TL
>> 10 going on.  Once the non-volatile memory situation exists, we have the
>> remaining benchmarks for TL 9, and once voice transcription becomes
>> commonplace, we'll be at TL 10.
>
>Just to be a bit contrarian, here...while there are software solutions,
>notably Dragon systems' stuff, that does _primitive_ voice
>transcription...it is limited, and needs a prolonged training period.
>
>We're a _heck_ of a long way from walking up to a computer and saying:
>
> "Aye, computair, Chief Engineer Scott here. Print me out a wee copy of
>those jump drive 12b slash 6, no make that 12b slash 7 control module
>plans on the big printer over there by the Xerox machine. No, I dinna
>need it in 3D, I want the flat schematics."
>
>and getting what you want.
>
>_That_ is TL-10 voice transcrption: where you can use any computer
>essentially all the time using voice not a keyboard.
>

Hey!  Except for the Scott ID, that's exactly how computers IMTU used to
work... knew I should have copy righted that ;^)  But furthermore, if there
was more than one computer in the room/area, depending on the chore
required, your direction or tone of voice, the computers could tell which
one you were talking to!  Other than that, you had to name them... one ego
tripper in my old campaign used to call his consol "Slut" so he could be
anywhere within earshot of it and say, "hey Slut, I want..."  I don't know
if we have that right now?  Perhaps those who are certain about our future
developments compared to Traveller TL could look in whatever crystal ball
they have and tell us when next year (or the year after?) we should expect
that?

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 21:12:06 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology (was re: A 12-Step...)

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
>  SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> ><< And don't forget the difference engine.  IIRC They finished it and it
> >works.
> > I've worked with several of these beasties.  Most people do not know it but
> > there are quite a few of this out there in industry or at least they were.
> > The problems are implimentation and cost.  They are amazing bits of design
> > engineering though.
> 
> >What are they?
> 
> Mechanical computers. Charles Babbage's one was recently built by the
> Science Museum in London. Check out the Gibson (and Sterling?) novel 'The
> Difference Engine'.
> 
<<catching up on a week's worth of TML>>

Another interesting fictional reference to the Difference Engine can be
found in Michael Flynn's novel _In the Kingdom of the Blind_, in which a
secret society, with insights provided by beyond-bleeding-edge
technology (the Difference Engine in the mid-19th century, more modern
computers since), struggle to mold the world into their own image (or at
least to mold it for their own convenience and profit).

<<snip sig>>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 19:28:49 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: MT enhanced character generation

Has anyone made enhanced character generation rules for all the careers?
Like Pirates, Rogues, Scientists, Law Enforceres, etc...

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 21:48:32 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Wayne Ewart wrote:
> >
> 
> > If only is was the next morning.
> > My groups games will start on a Friday (all with a good "buzz" going by
> > 10ish) and play through till sunrise or later Sunday(still with a good
> > "buzz" going) Then it's nap time till X-Files and back to bed.
> 
> Ouch! I'm not a young man anymore...more importantly, I don't have a
> young liver anymore ;-)
> 
That, sir, is because you have failed to recognize the most important
characteristic of the human liver.  It is more similar to muscles than
to other organs.  If you fail to exercise it, it remains soft and
flabby.  If, on the other hand, you exercise it on a daily basis, its
strength increases, and it becomes _hard_.  [Like a hockey puck  >;-)]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 22:10:07 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Use of the Term "Gold-Plated [tm]"

Recently, on the TML, several posters have used the term "Gold-Plated
[tm] when referring to unusually expensive items.

The Legal Department of AuricTech Shipyards objects strenuously to the
use of the term "Gold-Plated [tm]" when referring to drop tanks, or any
other item or product not designed or produced by AuricTech Shipyards. 
The term "Gold-Plated [tm]" is an integral part of our trademarked
slogan, "Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for Copper-Plated problems."  Please
refrain from using this term in the future, or AuricTech Shipyards'
Trademark Enforcement Division shall be forced to act in defense of our
trademarks.  With custom-designed enforcement vessels, if necessary.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 99 21:57:02 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

On 05/18/99 at 01:51 AM,  Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> said:

>Don't be greedy, Stephen, or you might find yourself having to learn
>to program in FORTRAN.  On a mainframe.  Using punch cards.  (Been
>there, done that, forgot most all of it since 1980.)

You know, I still use I, J, K, etc as integer counting variables
when I program.  ;-> That much of Fortran has stuck with me all
these years. 

Eris,
    passing programming habits to a new generation.
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 99 21:42:42 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

On 05/18/99 at 02:34 AM,  SRKOALA@aol.com said:

><< Shoot I remember being a kid and watching the men walking on the
moon and hearing Walter Kronkite (or one of those anchors) reporting
that we would have a permanent moon base in the late 80's, and have
landed men on mars also.  >>

>That what happens when polyticks gets in the way.

Ah, yes!  

Poly means many, and Ticks are parasitic blood-sucking insects.

Poly-Ticks - many parasitic blood-sucking insects.

Yes, I think you're on to something there.  ;-p

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 99 22:21:47 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)

On 05/17/99 at 10:18 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>>> That very idea was used by Daniel da Cruz (?) for 'The Ayes of Texas', in 
>>> which the battleship Texas is rebuilt while still on display.
>>
>> Is it a novel?  Written when?

>It's the first of a *series* of novels. It came out 10-15 years back.

I read the first two, were there others in that series?

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 21:58:10 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Matt Clonfero wrote:
> >
> 
> > b. The Imperium uses Mac-descended computers! You need a special tool to
> > open one, and the only way of fixing it is to replace the
> > motherboard/holomatrix/insert pseudo-random techspeak here.
> 
> Ahhh thbbbbt! All I need to open _my_ mac are my fingers, and some clear space
> to do so (If you saw my office right now yould immediately see that the latter
> is the bigger, possibly insoluble part of the problem ;-)
> 
> And I suppose you fix your manly-man PC by cracking the chips and resoldering
> gates, huh? :-P

Of _course_ not!  I fix my Wintel machine by buying a _new_ one, as God
and Andy Groves __intended__!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 99 21:54:05 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Book Seven (was...Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I))

On 05/18/99 at 01:46 AM,  Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> said:

>Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

>> Strange...  Merchant Prince characters are usually ex-megacorp vets who enter
>> the game as crew on tramp freighters, not the other way around...
 
>Well, sure.  After all, Book 7 was designed to create player
>characters.  Not much excitement in playing a "suit."  I've only seen
>one player in my life who _wanted_ to play a megacorp executive.  He
>played the local Instellarms factor....CHA-CHINGG!!  (BTW, the player
>in question majored in accounting, and is currently employed by one
>of the "big boys" in that field.)

Hey, I've been meaning to ask.  How different is the Merchant Prince
*book* from the JTAS insert?  I never bought Merchant Prince
because I had the Journal..what am I missing?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 22:20:03 -0400
From: T Green <tgreen3@tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: OTU Cannon (was "Re: Computer Technology")

In a message dated 99-05-15 19:23:18 EDT, 
"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

> The big Laws of Traveller Canon are:
> 1. Interstellar travel takes one week, no matter the distance [up to 6
parsecs].
> 2. Travel is the fastest form of communication.
> 
> Those two are about it...

Uhh, Douglas?  How 'bout...

3) Local delegation of Imperial authority to the Imperial nobility to cope
with #1 + #2

4) Public J-4 xboat network [leaving J-6 relays for covert CT/MT-era
Imperial use]

5) Empires rise, fall, ... <repeat>

6) "Major races" [discovered jump drive on their own] vs "minor races"

7) Psionics

- --- "The Imperium", 
    Marc C. Miller and Frank Chadwick,
    {Different Worlds}, Aug/Sep 1980

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 23:36:01 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: [Fwd: an American joke]

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In a message dated 99-05-11 10:08:37 EDT, Riderta writes:

<< . .Can a pizza get to your house faster than an ambulance.
 
 > >>Only in America. . .are there handicap parking places in front >>of a 
skating rink... >> >>Only in America. . .do drugstores make the sick walk all 
the >>way to the back of the store to get their prescriptions. >> >>Only in 
America. . .do people order double cheese burgers, a >>large fry, and a diet 
coke. . . >> >>Only in America. . .do banks leave both doors open and then 
>>chain the pens to the counters. . . >> >>Only in America. . .do we leave 
cars worth thousands of >>dollars in the driveway and leave useless junk in 
the garage. . . >> >>Only in America. . .do we use answering machines to 
screen >>calls and call waiting so we won't miss a call from someone we 
>>didn't want to talk to in the first place. . . >> >>Only in America. . .do 
we buy hot dogs in packages of ten and >>buns in packages of eight. . . >> 
>>Only in America. . .do we use the word "politics" to describe >>the process 
so well,  "Poli" in Latin meaning  "many" and "tics" >>meaning "blood-sucking 
creatures". . . >> >>Only in America do they have drive-up ATM machines with 
>>Braille lettering! >>

I though you might like to see this.  If it is off topic flame on, it a 
little cool down here.
- -Stephen

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Subject: Fwd: [Fwd: an American joke]
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From: "Holly Powell" <nater49@hotmail.com>
To: jfitzpatrick@discovision.com, gwydeven@csis.org, jbyles@dcdu.com,
  jeff.slabaugh@bglobal.com, kristin@ofpi.com, lenglema@mail.csis.org,
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Subject: an American joke
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. .Can a pizza get to your house faster than an ambulance.

> >>Only in America. . .are there handicap parking places in front >>of a skating rink... >> >>Only in America. . .do drugstores make the sick walk all the >>way to the back of the store to get their prescriptions. >> >>Only in America. . .do people order double cheese burgers, a >>large fry, and a diet coke. . . >> >>Only in America. . .do banks leave both doors open and then >>chain the pens to the counters. . . >> >>Only in America. . .do we leave cars worth thousands of >>dollars in the driveway and leave useless junk in the garage. . . >> >>Only in America. . .do we use answering machines to screen >>calls and call waiting so we won't miss a call from someone we >>didn't want to talk to in the first place. . . >> >>Only in America. . .do we buy hot dogs in packages of ten and >>buns in packages of eight. . . >> >>Only in America. . .do we use the word "politics" to describe >>the process so well,  "Poli" in Latin meaning  "many" and "tics" >>meaning "blood-sucking creatur!
!
!
es". . . >> >>Only in America do they have drive-up ATM machines with >>Braille lettering!


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #643
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 19 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 644



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: MT enhanced character generation
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Use of the Term "Gold-Plated [tm]"
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: OTU Cannon (was "Re: Computer Technology")
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #639
Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Use of the Term "Gold-Plated [tm]"
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Book Seven
Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel...
Re: Economics of service stations
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Car Rental
Re: Price of Freight
Space Combat Question
Re: OTU Cannon (was "Re: Computer Technology")
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Price of Freight 
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Use of the Term "Gold-Plated [tm]"
What is canon?  What are its forms?
MT enhanced character generation
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 23:50:40 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 09:57 PM 5/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
>You know, I still use I, J, K, etc as integer counting variables
>when I program.  ;-> That much of Fortran has stuck with me all
>these years. 
>
>Eris,
>    passing programming habits to a new generation.

The disturbing thing here is that I _always_ use i, j, and k as mu integer
counters, and I've _never_ even read a piece of FORTRAN code.  (I think I
saw some in a textbook once....)  So the passing has been successful.

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 23:39:19 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: MT enhanced character generation

In a message dated 99-05-18 22:31:01 EDT, you write:

<< Has anyone made enhanced character generation rules for all the careers?
 Like Pirates, Rogues, Scientists, Law Enforceres, etc... >>

Is this like the special duty for something?  Is there a version of that for 
T4?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 00:14:03 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In a message dated 99-05-18 23:21:08 EDT, you write:

<< >Don't be greedy, Stephen, or you might find yourself having to learn
 >to program in FORTRAN.  On a mainframe.  Using punch cards.  (Been
 >there, done that, forgot most all of it since 1980.)
 
 You know, I still use I, J, K, etc as integer counting variables
 when I program.  ;-> That much of Fortran has stuck with me all
 these years. 
 
 Eris,
     passing programming habits to a new generation.
 --  >>
I use more discriptive names, like StarX or StarY or Name$ ect, ahh the joys 
of modern technology.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 00:15:20 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Use of the Term "Gold-Plated [tm]"

In a message dated 99-05-18 23:14:12 EDT, you write:

<< Recently, on the TML, several posters have used the term "Gold-Plated
 [tm] when referring to unusually expensive items.
 
 The Legal Department of AuricTech Shipyards objects strenuously to the
 use of the term "Gold-Plated [tm]" when referring to drop tanks, or any
 other item or product not designed or produced by AuricTech Shipyards. 
 The term "Gold-Plated [tm]" is an integral part of our trademarked
 slogan, "Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for Copper-Plated problems."  Please
 refrain from using this term in the future, or AuricTech Shipyards'
 Trademark Enforcement Division shall be forced to act in defense of our
 trademarks.  With custom-designed enforcement vessels, if necessary. >>

Gold-Plated, no dout.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 23:19:17 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 05/18/99 at 01:51 AM,  Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> said:
> 
> >Don't be greedy, Stephen, or you might find yourself having to learn
> >to program in FORTRAN.  On a mainframe.  Using punch cards.  (Been
> >there, done that, forgot most all of it since 1980.)
> 
> You know, I still use I, J, K, etc as integer counting variables
> when I program.  ;-> That much of Fortran has stuck with me all
> these years.
> 
Or, from the "You may be a wirehead..." list:

"...if, upon hearing the term 'G-string', your first thought is an
alphanumeric variable."

BTW, my training in FORTRAN actually proved useful in my career as a US
Army interrogator.  Seems I was working as an OPFOR interrogator, when I
encountered a SERE  (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape) student
whose cover story involved being a computer programmer.  I asked him, in
my bad fake foreign accent, what languages he knew.  When he said that
he knew FORTRAN, I asked him to write a _very_ simple program in FORTRAN
(it should have taken maybe five lines of code).  When he failed to
produce, I wrote the program for him, dropped my bad fake foreign
accent, and asked him what his _real_ job was.  _Such_ a lovely sight!

ObTrav:  How many Traveller referees out there have players who know how
to interrogate captured NPCs?  Not many, I'd bet....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 23:30:10 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: OTU Cannon (was "Re: Computer Technology")

T Green wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-05-15 19:23:18 EDT,
> "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
> 
> > The big Laws of Traveller Canon are:
> > 1. Interstellar travel takes one week, no matter the distance [up to 6 parsecs].
> > 2. Travel is the fastest form of communication.
> >
> > Those two are about it...
> 
> Uhh, Douglas?  How 'bout...
> 
> 3) Local delegation of Imperial authority to the Imperial nobility to cope
> with #1 + #2
> 
> 4) Public J-4 xboat network [leaving J-6 relays for covert CT/MT-era
> Imperial use]
> 
> 5) Empires rise, fall, ... <repeat>
> 
> 6) "Major races" [discovered jump drive on their own] vs "minor races"
> 
> 7) Psionics
> 
Citizen Berry mentioned the two most important factors in maintaining
the "feel" of Traveller, without regard for campaign setting.  Factors 3
through 7 are essential to the _Official_ TU, but are not necessary for
the feel of the game as such.

One can, for instance, run a Milieu: Interstellar Wars campaign in which
factors 3, 4, 6, and 7 above are unimportant.  OTOH, the key factors of
travel time and communication speed _must_ be maintained for the game to
be recognizably Traveller.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 22:38:06 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #639

>>I have no problem with declaring our current computer technology
>>(1999) being around TL8 or early 9, and extrapolating from there.
>
>Problem is,  that's not what the authors of Traveller did.
>
>They stated that Earth was TL7-8 in the seventies, and then stated that a
>Model 6 was TL12.
>
>Then, certain other things were declared to be of other Tech levels. As we
>now have things that have been listed as being TL12 (and above) we are
>therefore at that level now in certain technologies.

Such as? The Imperium has robotics which are considerably more
sophisticated than what we have now. If our computer tech were TL12,
where are the robots? Advanced robotics of the kind we see in Traveller
(eg, security robots) would require sophisticated computer tech --
tech which I still maintain is beyond us now.

>>Imperium TL tops out at TL15, with the odd TL16 found here and there.
>>According to your analysis, we're already there, meaning that the
>>Imperium, over 3,000 years in the future, has computers which aren't
>>terribly more sophisticated than what we have now. And if you pardon
>>my saying so, this is a very ludicrous assumption to make -- in 3,000
>>years they've developed high-energy beam weapons, interstellar travel,
>>and other technologies that we're nowhere close to developing, yet
>>their computers are the same as ours??? I don't think so.
>
>Firstly it's not an assumption. I'm basing this on what Traveller computers
>are described as being able to do.

I've pored through my CT, MT, and TNE sources, and I find nothing that
supports your contention. If you base your contention that our computers
are TL12 simply because of how fast they are and/or how much storage
capacity they have, you're missing the bigger picture. I could just as
easily say that a Formula 1 race car is of a higher TL than my Chevy
Cavalier because it can go faster (an observation which would also apply
to a Formula 1 race car from 1960), or that a Mack truck is a higher TL
because it can hold more.

>>And why wouldn't Traveller have at least the computer technology
>>found in the earliest episodes of the original ST series?
>
>Because it was written to not have it.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

>Fundamentally that's the only real reason for anything in Traveller
>
>Anyway, as far as computer technology goes we have everything that ST-TOS
>had (other than a few super weapons, such as the universal translator)  now.

Really? We have computers that can control the matter/anti-matter intermix
so that the ship doesn't explode? We have computers that can search a 
database of great huge reams of data -- something on the order of the
data contained in an average university library -- and find the result in
several seconds, just by having the user say out loud, "Computer! Find this
data!"? We have computers that can do the incredibly complex calculations
that would be required -- to say nothing of the data processing requirements
- -- to run a transporter?

Get real.

But if you're going to hide behind (your interpretation of) the rules, then
so can I. Here are some examples from the TNE equipment list:

Medical Scanner, Computer: This larger, hand-held version of the pocket
med scanner takes rapid readings just like its smaller cousin, and thus it
greatly reduces the time spent on a Medical (Diagnosis) task. The larger
scanner differs from the pocket version in that this handheld model includes
a complete expert system diagnosis computer, which allows individuals with
little or no medical skill to diagnose and treat illness and injury.
TL: 12 (page 334, TNE rulebook)

Battle Computer: Man-portable battle co-ordination system, capable of
collecting intelligence estimates, providing approximations of enemy
forces, and suggesting tactics. 
TL:9 (page 341)

The TNE rulebook (page 340) also describes Language Translators, a TL12
device, which is essentially a computer with specific software for a
very specific purpose.

We have NONE OF THESE now.

I'm willing to concede that some of our cutting-edge comp tech is at
around TL10, as someone else suggested in a very well-written post.
But the idea that Earth 1999 computers are Traveller TL12 is not one
that stands up to analysis. When the original Traveller LBBs were
written, computers were still not part of everyday life on a hands-on
basis. They are now. That's when we crossed from TL7 to TL8. TL12
is still a long way away.


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 00:37:12 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

In a message dated 99-05-18 16:03:12 EDT, you write:

<< What is C++? I didn't even hear of C until I got my Apple IIgs (late 80s). 
>>

C++ is the improved version of C
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 22:52:18 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

>As for detail YOU miss the part about 'physical contact' being required and
>the silicon is specified as the specific media.

If physical contact was a requirement, then how did Virus propagate itself
through the TNS news feed? Just a question.


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 22:25:14 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Use of the Term "Gold-Plated [tm]"

>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Use of the Term "Gold-Plated [tm]"
>
>Recently, on the TML, several posters have used the term "Gold-Plated
>[tm] when referring to unusually expensive items.
>
>The Legal Department of AuricTech Shipyards objects strenuously to the
>use of the term "Gold-Plated [tm]" when referring to drop tanks, or any
>other item or product not designed or produced by AuricTech Shipyards. 
>The term "Gold-Plated [tm]" is an integral part of our trademarked
>slogan, "Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for Copper-Plated problems."  Please
>refrain from using this term in the future, or AuricTech Shipyards'
>Trademark Enforcement Division shall be forced to act in defense of our
>trademarks.  With custom-designed enforcement vessels, if necessary.

 i) the Serendip Combine doesn't seem to have an intellectual property rights
treaty with you. Bite Us!
 ii) we mock your piddly T4/TNE/MT designs. We respect only HG2 designs!
 iii) for the delivery of one gross of Mod/7+ fib computers at a 12.5%
premium and parts contract for ten years at same terms we will not only
deliver the miscreant responsible for mis-using your trademark but also
supply a dozen slav^h^h indentured servants of suitable qualifications to
administer whippings for your edification and amusement. Presumably said
whippings will be of the aforementioned miscreant, but we're inclined to
be open-minded and not inquire into your personaly proclivities.

          Yours, etc.
                The Serendip Combine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 01:26:33 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In a message dated 99-05-18 02:55:02 EDT, you write:

<< Ah, the good old days, when TRS-80s roamed the Earth, and cassette
 players were the storage medium of choice.  These young whippersnappers
 today don't realize how easy they have it....
 > 
 > And resent if for not being here sooner.
 > -Stephen
 
 Don't be greedy, Stephen, or you might find yourself having to learn to
 program in FORTRAN.  On a mainframe.  Using punch cards.  (Been there,
 done that, forgot most all of it since 1980.)
 >>

No! Don't even joke about that!
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 01:31:48 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Book Seven

> On 05/18/99 at 01:46 AM,  Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> said:
> 
> >Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> >> Strange...  Merchant Prince characters are usually ex-megacorp vets who enter
> >> the game as crew on tramp freighters, not the other way around...
>  
> >Well, sure.  After all, Book 7 was designed to create player
> >characters.  Not much excitement in playing a "suit."  I've only seen
> >one player in my life who _wanted_ to play a megacorp executive.  He
> >played the local Instellarms factor....CHA-CHINGG!!  (BTW, the player
> >in question majored in accounting, and is currently employed by one
> >of the "big boys" in that field.)
> 
> Hey, I've been meaning to ask.  How different is the Merchant Prince
> *book* from the JTAS insert?  I never bought Merchant Prince
> because I had the Journal..what am I missing?

Beats the zark outta me.  I've got Book 7, but I *don't* have that copy of JTAS.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 22:43:46 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel...

>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Re: Cheap ways of getting fuel...
...
>>From what sources do systems with neither standing water nor gas giants
>get fuel?  Do they import it (and if so, at what kind of markup?), or
>are there economically viable sources of hydrogen other than oceans
>(either water or some other hydrogen-bearing compound) and gas giants? 
>Comets, perhaps?

  If they have to import it then they have to pay as though the L-Hyd is
imported cargo; however, drop tanks can also radically reduce the cost of
this service as previously indicated.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 22:44:22 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of service stations

>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Economics of service stations
...
>I must be getting old and forgetful. I could have sworn that several weeks
>ago a number of people explained to you that, yes, a 400 T ship plus a
>fuelling station costs more than a 400 T ship alone but that 1) the cost
>per unit transported is lower, because you can transport a lot more units,
>and 2) that, say, 10 300 T ships and a fuelling station costs less than
>10 400 T ships. [Not in those exact words].

  Something like that. I think we may have more info to encourage people
to see the evils of drop tanks before too long.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 01:58:01 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-18 06:25:23 EDT, you write:

<< His tech progression chart added 2 TL every 10 years.
 The logical conclusion was that TL22 would arrive in 2050.
 TLs beyond 20 are generally considered Grandfather's Magic.
 The Vilani are not due to arrive on the scene until much later. >>

Then what is this about TL 15 being the average in I3?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 01:29:56 -0400
From: "johannes" <johannes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Car Rental

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
To: TML <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Monday, May 17, 1999 5:07 PM
Subject: Car Rental


> I didn't see anything in the new travel policy saying what we're supposed
to
> do about insurance for rental cars. We should take it I suppose?
>
> Also, has anyone been looking into getting a corporate account at a car
rental
> place?
>

Hee, hee, hee!  You must have taken a wrong turn somewhere!  (Let's beat him
up and take his wallet!)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 23:43:12 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Price of Freight

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Price of Freight 
...
>>   So if KCr 1/Dt _isn't_ the only rate that can be charged for shipping then
>> the whole "market rate premium for express service" argument is over? That
>> means that we can get back to what the CT trade system would look like once
>> drop tanks completed their ascendance.
>
>I see the 1KCr/ton rate to be the absolute rock bottom limit that *nobody*
will go below.  But with competition being what it is, I see it as the most
common price as well.  When you've got X ships competing for X-1 lots of
freight, you have to underbid to get the contract.

  But what if someone can actually make an acceptable profit at Cr 950/Dt?
Is there a reason why they don't even try to drive out their (inefficient)
competitors? 

  And meanwhile, some inexplicable mechanism makes people IYTU pay Cr 1000/Dt
for J-1 (and J-2?) jumps in series when a single J-3+ at a price over Cr 1000
per Dt would actually be cheaper? Would there be a reason for that in the OTU?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 02:56:10 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Space Combat Question

Hi,
As you may now I just got my T4 book.  On web pages I have seen tables like 
the fallowing:
Area  Surface hits                  internal explosion

1     1-4 radar ant, 5 maser ant,   electronics
      6 Avionics ant
2     1 radio ant, 2-5 HRT ant,     1-6 quarters, 7-18 gunnery, 19 hold
      6 airlock                     20 engineering
3                                   1-10 engineering, 11-20 hold
4-17  1-12 large cargo hatch (area  hold
      7 only)                       hold
18    1 air lock                    1-8 hold, 9-20 engineering
19-20                               engineering

What do the mean, what are the for and how do I create them for T4, and how 
do I use them?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 03:04:38 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: OTU Cannon (was "Re: Computer Technology")

In a message dated 99-05-19 00:33:49 EDT, you write:

<< Citizen Berry mentioned the two most important factors in maintaining
 the "feel" of Traveller, without regard for campaign setting.  Factors 3
 through 7 are essential to the _Official_ TU, but are not necessary for
 the feel of the game as such.
 
 One can, for instance, run a Milieu: Interstellar Wars campaign in which
 factors 3, 4, 6, and 7 above are unimportant.  OTOH, the key factors of
 travel time and communication speed _must_ be maintained for the game to
 be recognizably Traveller. >>

Thanks for pointing that all out.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 03:06:55 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In a message dated 99-05-19 00:22:41 EDT, you write:

<< ObTrav:  How many Traveller referees out there have players who know how
 to interrogate captured NPCs?  Not many, I'd bet.... >>

The blow torch and heavy wire cutters seem to do a good job:)
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 03:08:32 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In a message dated 99-05-18 23:57:12 EDT, you write:

<< The disturbing thing here is that I _always_ use i, j, and k as mu integer
 counters, and I've _never_ even read a piece of FORTRAN code.  (I think I
 saw some in a textbook once....)  So the passing has been successful. >>

When I started progaming I used a then b then c then (guess what).  But I'm 
beyond that now, now I use more discriptive names.
- -Stephen, a passing failure

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 03:18:32 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Price of Freight 

> >I see the 1KCr/ton rate to be the absolute rock bottom limit that *nobody*
> will go below.  But with competition being what it is, I see it as the most
> common price as well.  When you've got X ships competing for X-1 lots of
> freight, you have to underbid to get the contract.
> 
>   But what if someone can actually make an acceptable profit at Cr 950/Dt?
> Is there a reason why they don't even try to drive out their (inefficient)
> competitors? 

What do you considder acceptable?
 
Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 03:21:19 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

> In a message dated 99-05-19 00:22:41 EDT, you write:
> 
> << ObTrav:  How many Traveller referees out there have players who know how
>  to interrogate captured NPCs?  Not many, I'd bet.... >>
> 
> The blow torch and heavy wire cutters seem to do a good job:)
> -Stephen

Keeping them awake for a few days, getting them seriously disoriented by 
drugs, etc, works even better.  Problem with torture is, if the person you're 
trying to use it on has been trained fairly well, it'll just make them focus 
on *not* giving you the info you seek.  Pretty soon, all you can do is kill 
'em.  Then you're out the information *and* the time you used on them.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 00:18:47 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Use of the Term "Gold-Plated [tm]"

> From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
> Subject: Use of the Term "Gold-Plated [tm]"
> 
> Recently, on the TML, several posters have used the term "Gold-Plated
> [tm] when referring to unusually expensive items.
> 
> The Legal Department of AuricTech Shipyards objects strenuously to the
> use of the term "Gold-Plated [tm]" when referring to drop tanks, or any
> other item or product not designed or produced by AuricTech Shipyards. 
> The term "Gold-Plated [tm]" is an integral part of our trademarked
> slogan, "Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for Copper-Plated problems."  Please
> refrain from using this term in the future, or AuricTech Shipyards'
> Trademark Enforcement Division shall be forced to act in defense of our
> trademarks.  With custom-designed enforcement vessels, if necessary.

No doubt AuricTech Shipyards' litigation counsel will send them a
Gold-Plated (tm) bill for their services.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 00:25:26 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: What is canon?  What are its forms?

> From: T Green <tgreen3@tampabay.rr.com>

> Uhh, Douglas?  How 'bout...
> 
> 3) Local delegation of Imperial authority to the Imperial nobility to cope

I've deleted most of the discussion.  I just want to not what a pleasure
it is to see the beginnings of a discussion about canon itself.  What is
canon?  What are its sources?  What forms does it take?  

This discussion is about the last question.  Doug was stating the only
points of canon necessary to play Traveller.  T. Green followed with a
list of points necessary to play Traveller in the Official Traveller
Universe ("OTU").  T. Green's points don't actually affect any rules;
you can play Traveller as published perfectly well without regard to the
OTU.  You can make up your own background and ignore the OTU completely,
but if you want to use the rules (notably starship design and trade
rules), you have to keep travel time to one jump per week and
communication to the speed of travel.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 00:16:11 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: MT enhanced character generation

> From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
> Subject: MT enhanced character generation
> 
> Has anyone made enhanced character generation rules for all the careers?
> Like Pirates, Rogues, Scientists, Law Enforceres, etc...

I'm sure that they've all been done, but maybe not by members of this
list.  I did lawyers, artists, and police a long time ago (for CT, I
think), but doubt that I have the handwritten notes.  (Do you remember
handwriting?  It's a very old technology in which the user holds an
ink-based or graphite-based printer in his or her hand and puts the
output directly onto paper.  No CPU and no power source are needed. 
Handwriting was later supplemented by typing, in which a direct
keyboard-printer interface called a typewriter put the output onto
paper.  Again, there was no CPU, and some typewriters had power
("electric typewriters") while others did not ("manual" or, sometimes,
"portable" typewriters).)  Where was I?  My friend James Polk did a
great enhanced character generation table for pirates, but I don't know
where he is, and I didn't make a copy.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 03:43:15 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

In a message dated 99-05-19 03:29:48 EDT, you write:

<< Keeping them awake for a few days, getting them seriously disoriented by 
 drugs, etc, works even better.  Problem with torture is, if the person 
you're 
 trying to use it on has been trained fairly well, it'll just make them focus 
 on *not* giving you the info you seek.  Pretty soon, all you can do is kill 
 'em.  Then you're out the information *and* the time you used on them. >>

At about the thing from Kardenal (sp?) or the Krimlin (sp?) it was a sensory 
depervashion chamber.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #644
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 19 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 645



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fleet Ops
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Sector Data
Re: Veteran of the Psychic Wars (was Patches)
Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL
re: Car Rental
Phantom Menace
Re: Economics of service stations
A plea for cinema restraint...
Prisoners, questioning there of was:Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)
re: Price of Freight
Earth Tech
re: A 12-Step Program for Virus fans
Ballistica Maximus Corporation
GT: Far Trader trade routes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 03:46:28 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

In a message dated 99-05-18 14:13:39 EDT, you write:

<< The version of the FFW system in T4's Imperial Squadrons ends up producing
 sys def squadrons too hard for an attacker to crack. ISTR that some people
 posted fixes for the system.
 
 Interestingly, I recall reading somewhere a rule of thumb that an attacker
 should outnumber the defender 3:1 at least. Would this hold true for
 Traveller space combat, or is the advantage with the attacker?] >>

What about EM masking and then when they arn't paying atenchion send missiles 
and what not up there thruster plates?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 03:54:21 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-18 11:55:48 EDT, you write:

<< >it is, but then a player says: I want a patrol cruiser.  Dumps a can of
 >nanits on the ground, comes back in a few days and a patrol cruiser is
 there,
 >not much for an RPG, unless they get out of control...like one story I
 know.
 
 
 Bah... This is the argument I've heard quite a bit from the list in the
 past.
 
 It's entirely plausible, at least in my opinion, that nanotech advancement
 will come in degrees. Introducing nanotech doesn't mean that you *must*
 include mature, well-developed, bug-free replicators. There are other ways
 that the tech can be used.

xxxx
So, maybe it just builds the little pieces and then you put them to geather?
xxxx
 

 > >What canon laws?
 >
 >
 > I don't know where to begin...
 >  >>
 >I think someone else covered them.
 
 
 There are alot of canon laws. The two biggies that were already covered
 concerned travel and communications. There are others, but they may change
 depending on the person that you talk to.
 
 Automation is one of the big sticking points for alot of people. The
 Traveller books indicate that the Imperium is largely devoid of artificial
 intelligence and large scale automation, so to some people you're not
 playing Traveller if you utilize such things in your campaign world.

xxxx
Consitering what we have done in the past centurey with automation I would 
say that limited AI and automatic crew members would be posible, if every 
exsensive.
xxxx

 
 Biotechnology and extensive genetic engineering are other sticking points
 that people tend to get very worked up over. >>

There is a good artical out there some place that talks about it, it seems to 
go a good job talking about the impications that it could bring.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 03:58:52 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-18 07:17:00 EDT, you write:

<< Though to be fair, it was "polyticks getting in the way" that got us on the
 moon in 1969.
 It wouldn't have happened with out the Soviets damaging US pride by being
 first in orbit and first with a satellite.
 
 I've read some books by the people involved at NASA at the time and they
 were horrified when Kennedy made his big announncement, and several advisors
 rang up and told him he should have checked with his scientific staff before
 comiiting the US to something like that . >>

Yeah, but then if fizzeld once we won.  Now all we need is someone to make us 
run a new race.  Hmm, some large disk just landed in my back yard and gray 
critters are coming out, yes, that will do.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 04:01:33 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-18 07:07:29 EDT, you write:

<< As someone who has gone from being a pool hustler, to house painter, to a
 floor cleaner in a mental hospital, to an electrician ( 240/400V power
 wiring and maintenance) , through air force avionics technician, through
 electronics engineer ( servicing, designing and buillding High torque motors
 and electronic controllers to go wth them, building a PC out of TTL logic
 gates on bread board in my spare time), through communications network
 engineer ( writing, installing, and servicing  node controllers and power
 transmiters for cellular radio systems ) to writing network management
 software  and billing and rating engines for large telcos, I can fully
 understand why the Traveller computer skill covers both.
 
 Anyone who can fix or design complicated hardware can do software, it's a
 hell of a lot easier, it just pays more. >>

Hmm, I'm not shure,  it seems to me that the skills nessary to build a 
complicated peace of hardware (say a mother board) is a heck of a lot difrent 
from writing Falcon 4.0
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:06:34 +0100
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Sector Data

> > I have moved twice since I accessed it 5 years ago, but they
> > had pointers and it apparently ended up at....
> > ftp://mac9.ucc.nau.edu/pub/Misc/rpg/traveller/sectors/

Fantastic, the only problem being that who ever owns it has turned it off for
the night :-(

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typos, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 20:04:17 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Veteran of the Psychic Wars (was Patches)

>>MM got along much better with Hawkwind.  He toured with them on several
>>occasions, doing poetry readings at the shows.  I believe HW's live set
>>"Space Ritual" has MM reading the poem that became "Veteran".  IIRC, he
>>also did introductions on the Chronicle of the Black Sword tour.
>
>He also had his own band called The Deep Fix which was featured on some of
>the Hawkwind Friends and Relations albums. I don't however think that the
>readings on Space Ritual was MM, I think it was Bob Calvert.

According to the record cover it was Bob, but I'm afraid I didn't attend the
concert, so can't confirm it.
There was someone making funny noises in the background .....

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 20:38:02 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL

>I know that there is currently a big debate on our current computer
>TL on the TML.  This morning, before coming into work, I looked over
>the TL tables under Computers, and found very little related to
>processing speed listed under the accomplishments.  Processing speed
>is covered under equipment, etc, and demonstrate that we are above
>the original expectations of CT back in the '70s.  However, TL is
>measured more by benchmark accomplishments than by exceptional
>efficiency (except when designing vehicles, starships and other
>equipment.  :)

Please don't take this as a personal attack, but which version of Traveller
were you looking at ?

The only mention in the CT TL tables in the computing column after the
computer is invented is the model number of the computer, and that equates
purely to processing power, speed and size.

I don't see a Tech Level table in the MegaTraveller books, and in the
listings most "high tech" stuff is either TL10 or TL12. All of the stuff I
saw in a quick skim that was listed as TL10, we have already, and we have
some of the TL 12 stuff

I don't have the TNE rules, so can't check that.

In T4, TL9 is _explicitly_ listed as 1990 - 2000, and somehow TL10  becomes
"interstellar community" which sort of implies we should be implementing
stardrive next decade <grin>

Again, in the equipment lists we have everything listed as TL10, most of
what's listed as TL11,
( inertial nav is TL11 according to that book , someone obviously didn't
tell Sperry-Rand ! )
and the only TL12 item I found was a grav belt, which obvioulsy we don't
have.

>I feel that we are currently at TL 8, in regards to computers.
>According to the game system, TL 8 is benchmarked by massive parallel
>processing, which someone described recently on this list.

Again, which game system are you talking about ?

<snip>
>Now, once we crack the non-volatile memory problem (which it may
>already be done as far as research work, and thus might affect our
>novelty tech level rating, except we already have higher)  and the
>solution becomes commonplace (which has definitely not happened,

Actually, we have non-volatile memory, and we've had it for years, at least
since the early eighties when I first started programming devices that had
it. It's in general use all over the world in comsumer appliances, cars,.
etc. any application that truly requires it. It's known as EEPROM or
Electronically Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory, if my acronym memory
is correct

True, because of it's cost it is usually used for the purpose the name
describes, but physically it is non-volatole memory amd _could_ be used for
main ram on a slower processor if you have the money to throw at it . I
believe the NASA laptop the GRiD Compass had a section of RAM mapped to a
form of EEPROM.

But most people don't need it,  and it costs far more per K than normal RAM
so most people don't use it.

Frankie.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 04:44:57 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

- -----Original Message-----
From: SRKOALA@aol.com <SRKOALA@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 4:01 AM
Subject: Re: Computer Technology


> It's entirely plausible, at least in my opinion, that nanotech advancement
> will come in degrees. Introducing nanotech doesn't mean that you *must*
> include mature, well-developed, bug-free replicators. There are other ways
> that the tech can be used.
>
>xxxx
>So, maybe it just builds the little pieces and then you put them to
geather?
>xxxx


That's one option. There are others. Nanotech can work best as additional
background color. As an example, anagathics have traditionally been assumed
by most canon or semi-canon sources to simply be an ingested chemical that
keeps the taker from aging. However, anagathics could actually be groups of
nanites that help to keep the body young. It could be a series of genetic
treatments. It could be all of them. Different types of anagathics may be
available in different places. They may have various side effects. Some
types might be cheaper or more painful than others. Maybe some are illegal
on certain planets.

Some of the advances may be somewhat invisible to the players, but may have
very real effects for their characters. Imagine extremely light climbing
cables that are treated with countless nanites that constantly keep the
material strong and  pliable. Maybe the cords will not work in extremely
cold temperatures. This could make for some interesting situations.

The advances in manufacturing inherent in nanotechnology could go hand in
hand with established canon technologies with no major problems.

>Consitering what we have done in the past centurey with automation I would
>say that limited AI and automatic crew members would be posible, if every
>exsensive.


Automation is here. It's here to stay. It's only going to get more advanced
as time goes on. There's alot of interesting research being done into the
discipline of automation right now. In real life it has revolutionized
nearly every aspect of our society, and it will continue to do so.

There's a belief that with AI levels of automation, people will become
extinct or useless. I'm not sure that I agree. After all, once nuclear
warheads were married with rocket technology, everybody assumed that a
world-devestating nuclear war was right around the corner. We're still
waiting on that one.

> Biotechnology and extensive genetic engineering are other sticking points
> that people tend to get very worked up over. >>
>
>There is a good artical out there some place that talks about it, it seems
to
>go a good job talking about the impications that it could bring.


Biotech is an extremely exciting and interesting addition to
science-fiction. So much becomes possible.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:53:17 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

>>Anyway, as far as computer technology goes we have everything that ST-TOS
>>had (other than a few super weapons, such as the universal translator)
now.
>
>My ST (with TOS1.04) never had any superweapons or a universal translator.

Damn !
You are really good at ruining keyboards., Dom.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:05:11 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL

>I would fully support declaring Earth, 1999 AD, to have a
>solid computer TL of 9, novelty TL of 10. I anxiously await
>Frank Pitt's opinion. :)

Yeah, alright.
Having just read that TL9 is 1990s according to T4, you wouldn't be
conceding much.

I reserve the right to  argue other things for the hell of if I feel like it
though
<grin>

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:22:37 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: re: Car Rental

At 13:12 18/05/1999 -0400, "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> wrote:
>>Walter Smith posted:
>>
>><< Ethan Henry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>[yadayadayada]
>>SPPPLOOOORRRT!  'coughcough'
>>
>>ROFLMAO!
<snip>
>Better yet, bringing the full talents of the tech support department to
>bear to make the new networked HP printer capable of printing on 11x17
>paper, then having the chief techie say something like "Whew, that sure did
>take a lot of man-hours to get working right, what did you need it for
>anyway?".
<snip>

A couple of years ago, one of the SFB players at my club needed some
ship system displays photocopied. In a generous mood the club chairman
offered to help.
IMO his offer was a bit abused but a few weeks later he handed over a
couple of *thousand* photocopies (ie several copies of each page of
about 10 books).

	"How long did that take?" we enquired.

	"No time at all, I just booked a couple of hours overtime
	 for one of the clerks." came the reply.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 07:25:06 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Phantom Menace

If you want to see the movie with NO prior exposure, then treat this message 
as a Spoiler. If you've even seen the theater trailers, I'm not giving 
anything away...

- -10
- -9
- -8
- -7
- -6
- -5
- -4
- -3
- -2
- -1
0

I _almost_ want to put Light Sabers in my Traveller game after seeing this. 
Almost. The trailers do not come close to portraying the intensity of the 
actual duels...

The reviewers are obviously not xenobiologist-wannabees. Jar-Jar is not 
nearly as annoying as they all seem to think.

The pod race is stunning, and unlike light sabers, pod-racing will fit into 
Traveller just fine. The race announcer must be lampooning _someone_, I'm 
just not sure who. Pit Droids definitely go into MY next game...

Worth the money. No question.

GC

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:40:52 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of service stations

At 22:44 18/05/1999 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:
>>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>Subject: Re: Economics of service stations
>...
>>I must be getting old and forgetful. I could have sworn that several weeks
>>ago a number of people explained to you that, yes, a 400 T ship plus a
>>fuelling station costs more than a 400 T ship alone but that 1) the cost
>>per unit transported is lower, because you can transport a lot more units,
>>and 2) that, say, 10 300 T ships and a fuelling station costs less than
>>10 400 T ships. [Not in those exact words].
>
>  Something like that. I think we may have more info to encourage people
>to see the evils of drop tanks before too long.

Be afraid, be very afraid!

I have visions of this "more info" involving large spreadsheets, possibly
posted to a website.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:26:49 EDT
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: A plea for cinema restraint...

Folks:

A request for restraint! The Phantom Menace comes out today, and I'm sure a 
lot of list members actually saw it last night or will see it Real Soon Now. 
Could you please restrain comments that will spoil the plot for those of us 
with time constraints, or who live in countries that won't see the film for a 
while, etc.

This will hopefully keep the list from being flooded with OT items like the 
late, great, lamented Starship Troopers festival...

Of course, ship designs, T(put in your favorite edition version)-rendered 
characters from the film, etc., are welcome. Heck, my first Traveller 
campaign was heavily influenced by the first SW movie and (even more so) Alan 
Dean Foster's novel "Splinter of the Mind's Eye". So bring them on, just 
don't reveal too much, please!

Fred Kiesche
(Traveller Since 1977)
(Star Wars Fan Since 1977--saw the each of the three movies first day of 
release, which was of course, before I had Significant Commitments!)
(Amateur Astronomer Since 1965 or Thereabouts)
(Diespamer@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:12:15 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Prisoners, questioning there of was:Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

SRKOALA@aol.com keys in the following in hex by flipping switches:
>In a message dated 99-05-19 00:22:41 EDT, you write:
><< ObTrav:  How many Traveller referees out there have players who know how
> to interrogate captured NPCs?  Not many, I'd bet.... >>
>The blow torch and heavy wire cutters seem to do a good job:)

     Find a good book on the Spetsnaz for lessons in field questioning.
Truely frightening stuff.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of a free 
state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be 
infringed.  -- http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:13:31 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

SRKOALA@aol.com punches holes in cards to produce:
>In a message dated 99-05-18 16:03:12 EDT, you write:
><< What is C++? I didn't even hear of C until I got my Apple IIgs (late 80s). 
>C++ is the improved version of C

No, Assembly is the improved version of C.

C++ is just C with Object Oriented support kludged in. :-)



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"This has the characteristic look and feel of a complete fiasco." 
                http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 13:19:26 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 10:52 PM 5/18/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>As for detail YOU miss the part about 'physical contact' being required and
>>the silicon is specified as the specific media.
>
>If physical contact was a requirement, then how did Virus propagate itself
>through the TNS news feed? Just a question.
>
>

And a good one.  The original chips required physical contact.  It wasn't
untill they 'mutated' it into the virus that it suddenly gained all the
powers of both a virus and the original chips.  Canon does not explain the
mechanism.  I tend to think, like others, that it must be a psionic power as
it is inexplicable otherwise and that saves having to think about it.  The
virus as written never made sence to me.  In some ways it has powers and
abilities it should not in others it is to week and downright stupid in it's
behavior.  Perhaps the indistructable undead serial killer from pop cinima
would be a good model for the virus.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 13:19:37 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)

>So I still feel we're at Computer/Robotics TL8, with a big step towards TL
>10 going on.  Once the non-volatile memory situation exists, we have the
>remaining benchmarks for TL 9, and once voice transcription becomes
>commonplace, we'll be at TL 10.
>
>Thanks,
>Jason
>
>

We have NOV-RAM today.  NOn Volital RAM.  I've been using it in designs for
the last 5 years or so.  It comes in many styles a formats.  There are even
plug-in convertions for SRAM.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:28:44 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Price of Freight

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  And meanwhile, some inexplicable mechanism makes people IYTU pay Cr 1000/Dt
for J-1 (and J-2?) jumps in series when a single J-3+ at a price over Cr 1000
per Dt would actually be cheaper? Would there be a reason for that in the OTU?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Reason: for a starship, the biggest expense is time. Time between 
mortgage payments, time between crew paydays, time between 
maintenance layovers. Compared to that, the difference in cost between
jump-2 worth of fuel and jump-3 worth of fuel is negligible.

There is the cargo space lost by hauling around an unused jump-1
worth of fuel, that could either be a matter of modular construction
(same hull, different pods for different routes) or factored out in 
mass production - they built so many jump-3 hulls that they cost less
to run than a jump-2 ship, even on a jump-2 route. (Granted, that would
be a truly massive production run.)

With time as the highest operating expense, it doesn't matter how
many parsecs, just how many jumps. Thus every destination one
jump away from the origin effectively (for a large enough organization)
costs the same. 

Therefore, if a shipper has a destination jump-3 away, he'll put it on 
a jump-3 ship. He'll only put it on a jump-2 or jump-1 ship for multiple
jumps if something makes the jump-3 ships temporarily unavailable.
Then the shipper has to decide if it's worth a premium to ship early,
or if he should wait for the next jump-3 ship.

That jump-1 Free Trader will cost him Cr3000/dtn to get his cargo to
a destination jump-3 away, because he has to hire each dtn for three
jumps of the Free Trader's most expensive bit of overhead - *time*.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:51:26 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Earth Tech

The Computer Technology thread has pointed out some interesting
things.

Our computer technology, and perhaps several other technologies
at the present day have exceeded the expectations of Traveller Tech
level. We've gone nowhere, AFAIK, in the field of anti-gravity.

Note the major area of research the Solomani have canonically lagged
behind in: Gravitics tech.

Can you imagine a technology more crucial to a race's conquest of
space? You can't even start on jump drive until you live beyond the
100D limit. The difference between an orbital society based on 
thrust and one based on gravitics will be astonishing. No wonder, for
all our computer and biotech accomplishments, the Ziru Sirka 
thought of us as primitive.

The Ziru Sirka is a space-based empire. Their view of an alien culture's
tech will be most highly colored by that culture's space flight 
accomplishments. 

The Solomani, once they took over the Ziru Sirka, probably liked the myth
of their low-tech grandparents defeating the high-tech Vilani - a "real
human" wins because he is a "real human", not because of fancier
gadgets, or so the myth will go - thus the Ziru Sirka view of a low-tech
Earth persists, even in histories re-written by the Solomani conquerors.

As long as Earth has tech advancement holes where gravitics and jump 
drive are, we will be considered in the TL8 range overall, at least by
Traveller standards. Anything better we pull off would be discounted as
"cunning gadgets" by any race that did have gravitics and jump drive,
at least if that race were as space-oriented as the Vilani.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:12:39 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: A 12-Step Program for Virus fans

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
And a good one.  The original chips required physical contact.  It wasn't
untill they 'mutated' it into the virus that it suddenly gained all the
powers of both a virus and the original chips.  Canon does not explain the
mechanism.  I tend to think, like others, that it must be a psionic power as
it is inexplicable otherwise and that saves having to think about it.  The
virus as written never made sence to me.  In some ways it has powers and
abilities it should not in others it is to week and downright stupid in it's
behavior.  Perhaps the indistructable undead serial killer from pop cinima
would be a good model for the virus.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It was definitely a nightmare. Just looking at "before and after" subsector
maps, with all those charnel house star systems - trillions dead, in 
manners ranging from your coffee machine murdering you with a
steam explosion to a whole world dying when the atmosphere plants
exploded. It was chilling just to read it.

I haven't run any scenarios set during the main Virus incursion. You
fight your way out of an apartment building where everything from the
television set to the front door is trying to kill you, surrounded by 
screams and the smell burning flesh, and find that the city outside is
worse. Then ortillery starts hitting all around you, and you see the 
reentry fires of the Highport heading right for you.

You probably die before you find out that it isn't some kind of (human)
invasion, it's not a Black War raid. It isn't just your city, not just your
planet, not even just your particular frontier -  the whole of human space
is like this now. There's nowhere to run. That was just too big for me
to put a bunch of players in the middle of right then.

I don't see any problem with Virus maintaining both the original 
hardware-burning ability and the "ghost in the machine" ability. 
It willsimply retain the former in it's "memory banks", use it as 
possible - even use variants of it, like access to a ROM burner or
the config routines of a reconfigurable computer core. It wants to
burn itself permanently into as much computer media as possible,
it will live as a ghost if it can't.

Probably a very paranoid and desperate ghost, until it feels safe by
making a permanent source for itself.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:23:43 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Ballistica Maximus Corporation

A few people have asked me for the URL of the
merc clearinghouse (my description) site I found.

It's at: http://www.angelfire.com/biz/troopsupport/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 07:41:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: GT: Far Trader trade routes

In Far Trader, if you have three of the same level of route going 
between two systems, you upgrade that to the next level route.
Basicaly,
you are adding 1.0 to the BTN that the three smaller routes shared.
It is more general in talking about if there is enough trade to 
equal a minor route in smaller BTN's to give it a minor trade route.

What about if you have three BTN's in the, say 4 range. A 4, 4 and 4.5.
What would you say about treating like their larger bretherin and 
adding 1 to them and making one 5? The same if it were 4, 4.5 and 4.5.
Would this be an acceptable interpritation of the rules for deterining 
the complete pass through trade in an area?

Terry Mixon
_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #645
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 19 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 646



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Book Seven
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Phantom Menace
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Real World Travelling
re: Fleet Ops
Re: Sector Data
Re: Computer Technology
A plea for cinema restraint...
Prisoners, questioning thereof
Re: Phantom Menace
Re: Space Combat Question
Re: Phantom Menace
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Price of Freight 
Re: OTU Cannon (was "Re: Computer Technology")
re: Price of Freight
Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL
Re: Prisoners, questioning thereof
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Sector Data
Re:GT Far Trader:Collapsible Tanks Question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 07:45:07 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Book Seven

> Hey, I've been meaning to ask.  How different is the Merchant Prince
> *book* from the JTAS insert?  I never bought Merchant Prince
> because I had the Journal..what am I missing?

The character generation is somewhat different - the categories of characters,
for example. (I remember being disappointed that I couldn't properly generate
the same Oberlindes "Interface Line" captain with Merchant Prince - I think
he got relegated to a "subsector line" or suchlike with a worse choice of
skills.)

And it had some trade rules, but now that we all have Far Trader they're
redundant...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 07:52:13 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

For 'regular' variables, I name like that, you have to, but in all my 

for i = 1 to 10
	...
end for

constructs, I use i,j,k. quicker to type.

Come to think about it, as Julian said, I think I've seen that regularly in
textbooks for a number of different languages. 

Then again, I've written programs for my ancient Sharp calculator/PC (it had
4k of memory and BASIC in ROM) and could call a variable anything I wanted,
it's  just that only the first two characters mattered. ISTR (it's been a
loong time since I had the ol' II+ out of the closet) that Applesoft Basic
followed the same convention.


SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:

> I use more discriptive names, like StarX or StarY or Name$ ect, ahh the joys
> of modern technology.
> -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 11:07:42 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Phantom Menace

- -----Original Message-----
From: GypsyComet@aol.com <GypsyComet@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 7:31 AM
Subject: Phantom Menace


>If you want to see the movie with NO prior exposure, then treat this
message
>as a Spoiler. If you've even seen the theater trailers, I'm not giving
>anything away...
>
>-10
>-9
>-8
>-7
>-6
>-5
>-4
>-3
>-2
>-1
>0
>
>I _almost_ want to put Light Sabers in my Traveller game after seeing this.
>Almost. The trailers do not come close to portraying the intensity of the
>actual duels...
>
>The reviewers are obviously not xenobiologist-wannabees. Jar-Jar is not
>nearly as annoying as they all seem to think.
>
>The pod race is stunning, and unlike light sabers, pod-racing will fit into
>Traveller just fine. The race announcer must be lampooning _someone_, I'm
>just not sure who. Pit Droids definitely go into MY next game...
>
>Worth the money. No question.


The special effects were worth the money. I thought the storyline was
severely lacking. I'm glad I'm not the only one who was quite fond of the
pit droids. For the record, the announcer appears to be a send-up of Bob
Uecker's (sp?) announcer from the baseball farce "Major League."

It was a pleasant experience, but not a rewarding one. The visual tapestry
was fantastic though. I *love* seeing vast, sprawling science-fiction cities
and from that angle the film didn't disappoint.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 00:27:18 +0100
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In message <4.1.19990511112816.0098dd80@postoffice5.mail.cornell.edu>,
Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> writes
>Before Newton nobody could do Calculus.

Except Leibnitz...
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:13:01 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Real World Travelling

I'm going to be in Las Vegas tomorrow.  If you know of interesting game
shops or other activities related to Traveller or science fiction,
please advise (probably off-list).  After that, I'm going to the Grand
Canyon for a few days.

I'll post a report to the list if I experience anything of interest.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:35:14
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

At 03:15 PM 5/18/99 -0400, you wrote:

>There's one advantage I can think of for the attacker, besides the
>strategic "action easier than reaction" one: the fragility of what's
>being defended.
>
>Planets can't dodge, evade, or retreat. They pin the defenders in
>certain ways, force the defenders hand. If the attacker drives hard
>on the planet with everything, the defender must stop him quickly
>or millions will die. The attacker can lose badly, and still leave burned
>out craters where metropoli and starports used to be - losses that
>will cost more, in lives and material, than the starfleet sacrificed to
>inflict them.

If raw destruction is what you want, you can achieve by planetoid
bombardment (hey kids, let's get the near-c rock AND Virus debates going at
once!)

Assuming you want to capture the planet relatively intact, and especially
need orbital facilities like shipyards to be functional, the advantage
shifts to the defender.

>I can see how the fragility of the planet could be a kind of defense. The 
>attacker, unless he's in some Black War scenario, wants the planet intact.
>As long as he wants it intact more than he wants to deny it to the
>defender, the planet is (relatively) safe. This situation can change in
>moments, of course.

As I've said before, if a world is incapable of supporting human life, it
will surrender to any fleet that comes along.  The is too much danger of a
stray shot killing the entire population.  A world that has a habitle
biosphere will need to be reduced in detail by ground troops.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:17:52 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Sector Data

> From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>

> > > ftp://mac9.ucc.nau.edu/pub/Misc/rpg/traveller/sectors/
> 
> Fantastic, the only problem being that who ever owns it has turned it off
> for the night :-(

I found the same problem.  I guess that means I have to access it during
work hours.

>    Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,

>    My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typos, and poetic license

Don't forget transcription errors -- there is no apostrophe in "theirs"
(unless Tennyson invoked poetic license to put one there, but I don't
remember it).

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:28:48 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

> Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 04:44:57 -0400
 
> That's one option. There are others. Nanotech can work best as additional
> background color. As an example, anagathics have traditionally been assumed
> by most canon or semi-canon sources to simply be an ingested chemical that
> keeps the taker from aging. However, anagathics could actually be groups of
> nanites that help to keep the body young. It could be a series of genetic
> treatments. It could be all of them. Different types of anagathics may be
> available in different places. They may have various side effects. Some
> types might be cheaper or more painful than others. Maybe some are illegal
> on certain planets.

I like this idea.  As I recall, the best anagathics in the Imperium were
made from the sperm or roe of the tree kraken (which lives only on a few
worlds in the Spinward Marches), and were used by the Emperor himself
(that's mentioned in some of the early GDW adventures).  The
introduction of these synthetics might lead to all sorts of societal
dislocation, as people of ordinary means become able to find and buy
them.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:36:44 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: A plea for cinema restraint...

> Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:26:49 EDT
> From: Diespamer@aol.com

> A request for restraint! The Phantom Menace comes out today, and I'm sure a

I'm with Fred.  I won't see this for at least a couple of weeks, so if
you're posting spoilers, please mark them conspicuously.  (Rob Morse
wrote in his column in the San Francisco Chronicle that the trailers are
totally false advertising; the movie is actually the low-budget art film
Lucas has always wanted to make, and consists entirely of the main
characters sitting in a starport bar talking about life, the universe,
and the future of film -- sort of "My Dinner With Obi-Wan".  We can only
hope.)

> Of course, ship designs, T(put in your favorite edition version)-rendered 
> characters from the film, etc., are welcome. Heck, my first Traveller 
> campaign was heavily influenced by the first SW movie and (even more so)

We should remember our roots.  If I remember the interview correctly,
Marc Miller and Loren Wiseman saw the first Star Wars movie together and
drew much inspiration for Traveller from it.  (They both post to the
list, so they'll surely correct me if I'm wrong.)

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:38:40 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Prisoners, questioning thereof

> From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
> Subject: Prisoners, questioning there of was:Re: A 12-Step Program for
> Virus Fans

> ><< ObTrav:  How many Traveller referees out there have players who know how
> > to interrogate captured NPCs?  Not many, I'd bet.... >>

>      Find a good book on the Spetsnaz for lessons in field questioning.
> Truely frightening stuff.

I guess it's a little different from cross-examination during a
deposition?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:44:35
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Phantom Menace

At 07:25 AM 5/19/99 EDT, you wrote:
>If you want to see the movie with NO prior exposure, then treat this message 
>as a Spoiler. If you've even seen the theater trailers, I'm not giving 
>anything away...
>
>-10
>-9
>-8
>-7
>-6
>-5
>-4
>-3
>-2
>-1
>0
>
>I _almost_ want to put Light Sabers in my Traveller game after seeing this. 
>Almost. The trailers do not come close to portraying the intensity of the 
>actual duels...
>
>The reviewers are obviously not xenobiologist-wannabees. Jar-Jar is not 
>nearly as annoying as they all seem to think.

Oh yes he is.  Try seeing the movie if you are hearing impaired.  I
couldn't understand a single word that thing said, as all of his dialogue
was right in a range that I'm blanked on.  He came across as an annoying
whine.  Add in the constant level of backround noise and loud f/x, and I'm
lucky I read a synopsis before going in.

>The pod race is stunning, and unlike light sabers, pod-racing will fit into 
>Traveller just fine. The race announcer must be lampooning _someone_, I'm 
>just not sure who. Pit Droids definitely go into MY next game...

Sounded to me like the TNN announcers for NASCAR.

- -- 

Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"When you're raised by the Jesuits, you
end up obedient or impertinent."
   - Asst DA Jack McCoy, _Law And Order_

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:49:35
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Space Combat Question

At 02:56 AM 5/19/99 EDT, you wrote:
>Hi,
>As you may now I just got my T4 book.  On web pages I have seen tables like 
>the fallowing:
>Area  Surface hits                  internal explosion
>
>1     1-4 radar ant, 5 maser ant,   electronics
>      6 Avionics ant
>2     1 radio ant, 2-5 HRT ant,     1-6 quarters, 7-18 gunnery, 19 hold
>      6 airlock                     20 engineering
>3                                   1-10 engineering, 11-20 hold
>4-17  1-12 large cargo hatch (area  hold
>      7 only)                       hold
>18    1 air lock                    1-8 hold, 9-20 engineering
>19-20                               engineering
>
>What do the mean, what are the for and how do I create them for T4, and how 
>do I use them?

Those are combat tables for _Brilliant Lances_, which was the combat system
for _Traveller: The New Era_.  This is well worth finding, as it's one of
the better space combat systems around.

Andy Akins was supposed to come out with a revision of his spreadsheet that
would include stats for both BL and the companion game _Battle Rider_, but
he's been enslaved by a cute baby.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:59:34 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Phantom Menace

>>If you want to see the movie with NO prior exposure, then treat this
>message
>>as a Spoiler. If you've even seen the theater trailers, I'm not giving
>>anything away...
>>
>>-10
>>-9
>>-8
>>-7
>>-6
>>-5
>>-4
>>-3
>>-2
>>-1
>>0

>The special effects were worth the money. I thought the storyline was
>severely lacking.

And the less than stellar performances/character development. Although I
thought the Liam Neelson CGG really did look like him, the Ewan McGregor
one looked kind of washed out on Tattooine. Still, it's amazing what they
can do with computers, nowadays.

To me, the most compelling character was the Queen's bodyguard. He actually
seemed to be alive and not a computer-generated action figure that ... huh?
... uh, what do you mean they used live actors?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:06:14 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 12:27 AM 5/19/99 +0100, you wrote:
>In message <4.1.19990511112816.0098dd80@postoffice5.mail.cornell.edu>,
>Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> writes
>>Before Newton nobody could do Calculus.
>
>Except Leibnitz...

If Liebnitz is who I think he is, then this is true.  But he was an almost
exact contemporary of Newton.  And  my point holds.  Before Newton/Liebnitz
no one could do Calculus.

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:17:04 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

> We should remember our roots.  If I remember the interview correctly,
> Marc Miller and Loren Wiseman saw the first Star Wars movie together and
> drew much inspiration for Traveller from it.  (They both post to the
> list, so they'll surely correct me if I'm wrong.)
>
> --Glenn

In Challenge # 29 "A Decade of Traveller" Loren Wiseman wrote about how he
and Marc had gone to see Star Wars right after they began working on
Traveller.

I'll type it up if I can get permission.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:29:34 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Price of Freight 

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Price of Freight 
>
>> >I see the 1KCr/ton rate to be the absolute rock bottom limit that *nobody*
>> will go below.  But with competition being what it is, I see it as the most
>> common price as well.  When you've got X ships competing for X-1 lots of
>> freight, you have to underbid to get the contract.
>> 
>>   But what if someone can actually make an acceptable profit at Cr 950/Dt?
>> Is there a reason why they don't even try to drive out their (inefficient)
>> competitors? 
>
>What do you considder acceptable?

  Bundles of unarked bills, small denominations...  .. oh, reasons?
Maybe the laws prevent it - maybe custom does. I'd just like to see
a case made for a believable reason for the OTU.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:45:18 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: OTU Cannon (was "Re: Computer Technology")

T Green wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-05-15 19:23:18 EDT,
> "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
> 
> > The big Laws of Traveller Canon are:
> > 1. Interstellar travel takes one week, no matter the distance [up to 6
> parsecs].
> > 2. Travel is the fastest form of communication.
> >
> > Those two are about it...
> 
> Uhh, Douglas?  How 'bout...
> 
> 3) Local delegation of Imperial authority to the Imperial nobility to cope
> with #1 + #2

#3 isn't so much a big law as it is one logical solution to governance
arising out of #'s 1 and 2
 
> 4) Public J-4 xboat network [leaving J-6 relays for covert CT/MT-era
> Imperial use]

Depends, in M0 or TNE that is _not_ true...again, this is derived from
#'s 1 and 2: That he who controlls the speed of communication controls
information.
 
> 5) Empires rise, fall, ... <repeat>

Hey, you forgot: <_rinse_ and repeat> ;-)

> 6) "Major races" [discovered jump drive on their own] vs "minor races"

A political distinction and hangover from the 1st Imperium...it is not a
law as much as a fragment of the background, and debateable, given that
_all_ of the major races' Jump drives are essentially identical, there
is strong (IMHO) circumstantial evidence that their 'discovery' by the
major races are in fact reverse engineering of found Ancient Artifacts.
Gramps seeded the universe with jump drive 'plans'; the 'major' races
simply managed to hide the fact that they found the drive. The Hivers,
in fact _did_ develop a jump drive entirely on their own..it was an
inferior drive, more related to stutterwarp than 'true' jump drives.
When they recovered a 'true' drive from a human ship (IIRC) they rapidly
incorporated the superior design into their ships.

More evidence is the canon fact that, although they are classed as
'major' by everyone, and even appear on Droyn Coyns as a major race, the
Aslan, in fact, got Jump drive from a wrecked solomani starship.

This idea is also supported by the fact that Droyne jump drives (though
'handmade and the best known') are of the _same_ design, and the Droyne,
as far as anyone can tell have indeed had Jump drive since Grandfathjers
time, they just have a _real strong_ racial disincentive to creating
interstellar empires. (Something about the Final War...I don't know
_why_ they might be somewhat afraid of _that_ ;-) In fact, it's entirely
possible, given the vast destruction accompanying the Final War, that
Grandfather manipulated the surviving Droyne population to eliminate the
drive to Empire and innovation. Perhaps this is a consequence of the
Coyns that is unknown to _anyone_, maybe even the Droyne.

> 7) Psionics

Which are clearly listed as optional in all versions of Traveller. The
OTU background includes psionics, but here we're talking about
underlying postulates that govern any reasonably non-divergent TU. 

Those two laws are the Big Ones from which all else can be derived.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:53:37 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Price of Freight

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Price of Freight
...
>  And meanwhile, some inexplicable mechanism makes people IYTU pay Cr 1000/Dt
>for J-1 (and J-2?) jumps in series when a single J-3+ at a price over Cr 1000
>per Dt would actually be cheaper? Would there be a reason for that in the OTU?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
...
>That jump-1 Free Trader will cost him Cr3000/dtn to get his cargo to
>a destination jump-3 away, because he has to hire each dtn for three
>jumps of the Free Trader's most expensive bit of overhead - *time*.

  I agree. That's my point in the Price of Freight thread; you may face
some disagreement, though.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:14:36 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL

Frank G. Pitt wrote:
> 

> Actually, we have non-volatile memory, and we've had it for years, at least
> since the early eighties when I first started programming devices that had
> it. It's in general use all over the world in comsumer appliances, cars,.
> etc. any application that truly requires it. It's known as EEPROM or
> Electronically Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory, if my acronym memory
> is correct

It is also far too slow to be used in main memory space, and has a
limited write cycle: you can only erase it and re-write it so many
times, as anyone with a well-used digital camera with a flash card can
tell you.

Further, while reading memory is low power, and storing it is no-power,
_writing_ it is much higher power. that makes it hot and current
- -hungry.

Typically EEPROM is used to store a few tens to a few k of configuration
parameters, and as such is analogous to a solid state disk rather than
memory.



- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:21:06 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Prisoners, questioning thereof

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
>
> >      Find a good book on the Spetsnaz for lessons in field questioning.
> > Truely frightening stuff.
> 
> I guess it's a little different from cross-examination during a
> deposition?
> 

Only if Rod Elliot isn't involved, I would imagine:

"Tell me sir, when were you first aware of Mr. Thursby's plans to
embezzle the pension funds...Oh, never mind the small giggling girl in
the corner. No, that's...aaahhh....a prototype toy a client is having
her test.

"You're correct, sir, it _does_ make rather an ominous whining noise. 

KA-WHOOOM!!!! aaaaiiieeeeeeee!

"Sir, sir, please compose yourself...I told you it was a prototype, they
don't have all the bugs worked out yet. Now, the sooner we get to the
truth the sooner we can all leave. Yes I know the smoke is rather acrid,
and I'm _truly_ sorry about your associates arm, but rest assured, the
stump should heal nicely, as it's thoroughly cauterized."



- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:42:17 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

The problem you all seem to have is that you are arguing materials
technology, not computer technology. We can - and do - make computers with
different materials, from valves to microchips, but modern computers are all
Turing machines - which can be built, if you are really desperate, with
clockwork and paper tape. And, of course, the whole point is that they can
*all* do exactly the same calculations and processes - eventually.

Analogue computers are not Turing devices - at least not usually - but are
seldom used any more. In TL terms we have made only three advances in
computers - creating them, analogue devices and Turing devices. Since our
systems were originally defined as TL 6 or so, then all the window dressing
and speed differences we have made with our materials technology might - but
only might - put us at TL 7 now. Maybe TL 8 at a pinch.

Quantum devices - also not Turing machines - would be a further advance, but
don't exist yet. The only other advance in sight is the development of
self-organising, self-aware devices (thinking machines). We are on the
threshold of both, so just maybe we are at TL 9 going on TL 10, but more
likely at TL 8, going on TL 9. You are mostly looking at the way we are
'packaging' what we have been able to do for many years, rather than any
real advances in what we can do. A tad over-optimistic about our technology.

[Previous posts snipped]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:30:16 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Sector Data

A repeat of an earlier post, but I have the same sector data zipped up
at:

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/archives/sectors.zip

(it's about a 300k zip file containg all sectors)


Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
> > From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
> 
> > > > ftp://mac9.ucc.nau.edu/pub/Misc/rpg/traveller/sectors/
> >
> > Fantastic, the only problem being that who ever owns it has turned it off
> > for the night :-(
> 
> I found the same problem.  I guess that means I have to access it during
> work hours.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:42:39 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re:GT Far Trader:Collapsible Tanks Question

>>So why don't all commercial ships use them?
>>Have I missed something?

>Yeah. As I understand it, this is being errata'd.

>Firstly, you cant use fuel directly from collapasible tanks to jump. It has
>to go from the collapsible tanks to the main tanks, and then be used to
>jump. The handwave is that only 'real' fuel tanks are capable of bleeding
>the fuel to where it's needed at the correct rate 

I suspected as much but didn't like to invoke my own handwave in case I started
an "Economics of Collapsible Tanks" thread :-)

>Secondly, being hit in the Collapsible Tankage is Not A Good Thing. Not
>much for safe areas, important for those of you who plan on getting those
>nice chunky risk premiums for trading in unsafe areas.

Well, they are inside the hull and are only full on the way to the jump point,
so not that much of a liability, especially if you do a running jump.

>Thirdly, regular use of collapsible tankage would probably result in a need
>for maintainence and/or replacement. About 20 refills sounds about right to
>me for collapsible tanks.

They would need to last at least 50 refills to actually work out cheaper than
fixed tanks.

Presumably they would be useable for any bulk liquid or powder transport, if
such an opportunity presented itself. 

Hmmmm, ISS beer contract anyone?  Probably need a fair size fleet for that :-)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #646
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 19 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 647



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

more expensive
Re: Modular Cutter
Fw: Re:GT Far Trader:Collapsible Tanks Question
Re: Book Seven 
Re: 3I raising military forces
Re: Real World Travelling
Re: Computer Technology
re: Fleet Ops
Pricing Floors
My spreadsheet
Phantom Menace (No Spoilers)
Re: Phantom Menace (No Spoilers)
Re: Phantom Menace (No Spoilers)
Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
Re: Slavery within Traveller
Re: Computer Technology
Re: MT enhanced character generation
My Web Page - Check it out
Re: Phantom Menace (No Spoilers)
Re: Price of Freight
Re: Phantom Menace (No Spoilers)
One StarWars request: NO SPOILERS, no info, no nothing!
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:43:43 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: more expensive

Hi Jid-Jid:

I checked with both Hertz and Avis.  The price is about double if we
return the car at Flagstaff, Arizona (the nearest rental location to the
Grand Canyon).  For example, Hertz would charge about $150 for each day
(Thursday and Monday), for a total of $300.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 15:11:29 +0300
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi>
Subject: Re: Modular Cutter

First of all, thanks for all these ideas.

- ----------
> From: GypsyComet@aol.com
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Modular Cutter
> Date: 14. toukokuuta 1999 23:26
> 
> Jussi_K._Kenkkil <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi> asks:
> 

- ------bzzzzzz--------
> 
> >>   -Pressurized Shelter (long-term LS for eight)
> >
> >What is the arrangement of the living spaces?
> >
> >How is the quarters module arranged? Are there horizontal floors? Or is
it
> >divided to 5 or 6 sections with the outer hull as floor?
> 
>  The module depicted is built to ground, and has one deck with
> the same gravitic orientation as the rest of the cutter. The module is
> a 15m long cylinder the same diameter as the cutter (6m)
> 
I gather that the other modules will follow the same 1 floor plan. Or do
some differ?

> >How are the modules connected? Are ther airlocksa at both ends? One end?
In
> >the ends and the middle? At which positions can they be connected?
> 
>  It has airlocks at each end and four double occupancy staterooms.
> Internal power and storage make it self-sufficient, though not
> mobile, for months at a time.
> 

This means that they'll need multi-airlocked connector modules, if any
larger space station is planned. Something with 1 at each end and 3-6
radially placed.

> >
> >I'm making an adventure that will have a research base constructed of
> >modules, and also a ships that is specially designed for haulig enough
> >modules for a portable base.
> >
> 
>  Such a ship could carry several Cutters for the setup work and have a
> cargo bay or revolver-bay loaded with the modules, including modules
> specifically built for laboratory space and some meant as expandable
> connectors between full-size modules. Larger pieces like a central
> dome with module connection points around it might be amusing, too...
> 

I was thinking on the lines of a revolver bay with 6 modules per section.
Because of the basic module shape the connectors will also follow it. And
instead of a different shaped central dome I think I'll use one made of
several modules that are designed to be linked into one larger cylinder.

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 11:18:24 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Fw: Re:GT Far Trader:Collapsible Tanks Question

>>Thirdly, regular use of collapsible tankage would probably result in a
need
>>for maintainence and/or replacement. About 20 refills sounds about right
to
>>me for collapsible tanks.

>They would need to last at least 50 refills to actually work out cheaper
than
>fixed tanks.

>Presumably they would be useable for any bulk liquid or powder transport,
if
>such an opportunity presented itself.

>Hmmmm, ISS beer contract anyone?  Probably need a fair size fleet for that
:-)

As a GM, this presents me with so many *EVIL* possibilities, I'll just HAVE
to use it!  The concept of a engineer failing his skill roll while
reconfiguring the fuel tanks for cargo is *just* delicious!!  (CAPT to ENGR:
"What do you mean, a valve got left open??")

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:00:10 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Book Seven 

> > Hey, I've been meaning to ask.  How different is the Merchant Prince
> > *book* from the JTAS insert?  I never bought Merchant Prince
> > because I had the Journal..what am I missing?
> 
> The character generation is somewhat different - the categories of characters,
> for example. (I remember being disappointed that I couldn't properly generate
> the same Oberlindes "Interface Line" captain with Merchant Prince - I think
> he got relegated to a "subsector line" or suchlike with a worse choice of
> skills.)
> 
> And it had some trade rules, but now that we all have Far Trader they're
> redundant...

We don't *ALL* have FT.  <grin>  I'm still hobbling along with the original T&S rules.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:30:04 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

>         Mileau 0 says that there is a core "Imperial Army" and a "Sylean
> Cadre" both of which train native batttalions up to Imperial Standards, and
> the local battalions that have been equiped and trained to Imperial Standards
> are used to form the major maneuver elements.  So it seems to me that
> Imperial Army units are indeed just the best trained and equipped local units
> which can be called up by the Emperor at need.   The texts thus far published
> don't provide the mechanism or legal standards for this call up.

A lot of things change in 1100 years.

IMHO, The Sylean Cadre core of the Imperial Army in Milieu 0,
would eventually become primarily a bureacracy, responsible for
maintaining the standards and training of the entire Imperial Army.
By 1100, each sector, or at least domain, should have its own
Military Academy (such as the Military College of Mora, GT:BtC p. 115),
but there would still be *The* Imperial Military Academy (at Arpaget in
T4.1/5).

[There are chargen implications here - it should be more difficult to
enter the Imperial Academy, than other Military Colleges.  Off the
top of my head I'd say admission should be:

The Imperial Military Academy: [T4.1 Beta material]
Prereqs: End 8+, Int 8+, Edu 4+, Soc 8+, Age 19-
Admission: 5-; DM -2 if Int A+

A Domain or Sector Military Academy or College:
Prereqs:  End 8+, Int 8+, Edu 4+, Soc 7+, Age 19-
Admission:  6-;  DM -2 if Int A+

A Planetary or Subsector Military Academy of College:
Prereqs: End 7+, Int 7+, Edu 4+, Soc 6+, Age 19-
Admission: 6-;  DM -2 if Int 9+

I'd have a similar system for Naval Academys.

Alternatively:  You could base the determination of which
Military Academy is entered based on the roll for THE
Imp. Military Academy.  Fail by 1, Domain/Sector;
Fail by 2, Subsector/Planet (maybe with a required
term of Army service as well).  This may be merited by
the integrated nature of the military bureaucracies.
E.G., Eneri Soldier, a native of Rhylanor, attempts to enroll
in the Imperial Military Academy.  He has no DMs and rolls
a 6 on the enlistment roll.  He is informed by the Imperial
Army that there is no space for him in the next class, but
that there is a spot open at the Military College of Mora,
which he may have.]

To ensure uniformity of training and standards, the Sylean Cadre
would command those institutions as well as serving some function
with larger unit sizes for the same purposes.  In this way, with little
real trouble, I think these desk soldiers would be members of the
Sylean Cadre.

I would distinguish this from the Emperor's Guard, or whatever
name is appropriate, which IMTU would be an elite unit comprised
of combat veterans from throughout the Imperium.  Surviving soldiers
in these units would go on to teach at military acade

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:39:14 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Real World Travelling

In a message dated 99-05-19 11:22:30 EDT, you write:

<< I'm going to be in Las Vegas tomorrow.  If you know of interesting game
 shops or other activities related to Traveller or science fiction,
 please advise (probably off-list).  After that, I'm going to the Grand
 Canyon for a few days.
 
 I'll post a report to the list if I experience anything of interest.
 
 --Glenn >>

If you come across a copy of FF&S(T4) that is at a good price pick it up and 
I'll buy if from you.
Good luck and have fun!
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:50:03 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-19 04:50:45 EDT, you write:

<< 
 That's one option. There are others. Nanotech can work best as additional
 background color. As an example, anagathics have traditionally been assumed
 by most canon or semi-canon sources to simply be an ingested chemical that
 keeps the taker from aging. However, anagathics could actually be groups of
 nanites that help to keep the body young. It could be a series of genetic
 treatments. It could be all of them. Different types of anagathics may be
 available in different places. They may have various side effects. Some
 types might be cheaper or more painful than others. Maybe some are illegal
 on certain planets.

xxxx
Darn, I missed that! The reson that we age is that part of our DNA gets lost 
(at least thats how I have hard it) and broken down during copying, this 
woult negate that, briliant!
xxxx 

 Some of the advances may be somewhat invisible to the players, but may have
 very real effects for their characters. Imagine extremely light climbing
 cables that are treated with countless nanites that constantly keep the
 material strong and  pliable. Maybe the cords will not work in extremely
 cold temperatures. This could make for some interesting situations.

xxxx
yeah, and you would not have brush your teath.
xxxx
 
 The advances in manufacturing inherent in nanotechnology could go hand in
 hand with established canon technologies with no major problems.
 
 >Consitering what we have done in the past centurey with automation I would
 >say that limited AI and automatic crew members would be posible, if every
 >exsensive.
 
 
 Automation is here. It's here to stay. It's only going to get more advanced
 as time goes on. There's alot of interesting research being done into the
 discipline of automation right now. In real life it has revolutionized
 nearly every aspect of our society, and it will continue to do so.

xxxx
Yeap.
xxxx
 
 There's a belief that with AI levels of automation, people will become
 extinct or useless. I'm not sure that I agree. After all, once nuclear
 warheads were married with rocket technology, everybody assumed that a
 world-devestating nuclear war was right around the corner. We're still
 waiting on that one.

xxxx
Lets hope we keep weighting
xxxx
 
 > Biotechnology and extensive genetic engineering are other sticking points
 > that people tend to get very worked up over. >>
 >
 >There is a good artical out there some place that talks about it, it seems
 to
 >go a good job talking about the impications that it could bring.
 
 
 Biotech is an extremely exciting and interesting addition to
 science-fiction. So much becomes possible. >>

Oh, I agree
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:06:22 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
As I've said before, if a world is incapable of supporting human life, it
will surrender to any fleet that comes along.  The is too much danger of a
stray shot killing the entire population.  A world that has a habitle
biosphere will need to be reduced in detail by ground troops.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That, of course, will hold true as long as the attacker wants to take the
world (relatively) intact. Even a world with a habitable biosphere will have 
point targets worth BCr or TCr - well, they may cover large areas, but will 
still be "point targets" compared to the area a starfleet can burn. A TL15 
planet that's lost it's starport, top ten spaceports, top ten population centers
and top ten factory complexes will certainly suffer a loss in ability to 
support the war effort, and may even suffer a degradation in  tech level.

If the invader had a plan long-term enough, this could be a viable strategy - 
say, the High Archon's orders to the Admiral of the Invasion Fleet: 
"Do no damage that can't be fixed in a century or two, we might want to
add that planet to our empire someday. Yes, remove it from their war
effort for *this* war, but don't make the planet uninhabitable. I know those
factories and such could be useful to us, but we plan on this war being
over - one way or the other - long before we could invade that planet
and get the factories working for *us*."

It sucks to go to war with someone, and discover that they're playing
by a very different set of rules than you're used to.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:17:10 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Pricing Floors

>  But what if someone can actually make an acceptable profit at Cr 950/Dt?
>Is there a reason why they don't even try to drive out their (inefficient)
>competitors?
>
>  And meanwhile, some inexplicable mechanism makes people IYTU pay Cr 1000/Dt
>for J-1 (and J-2?) jumps in series when a single J-3+ at a price over Cr 1000
>per Dt would actually be cheaper? Would there be a reason for that in the OTU?
>

Probably the same reasons that Doctors seem to all have their billing set
to Medicaid/Medicare coverage plus co-payment, or maximum insurance
"Customary and Reasonable" plus copayment... The vast majority seem to be
subsidized by governments; many government subsidies prevent you from
charging more than their fixed rate, but likewise, do not require a lowest
bidder situation.

If the prices are established by imperial payment schedules, and the
imperium constitutes 30% or more of shipping, you can bet almost everyone
will be around those numbers. Since we know that the TAS rates match up,
I'd figure some 30-60% covered rates.

As for the longer jump mechanism, there is no incentive for carriers to
have J3 vessels, under subsidy rates, so there won't be many, and they will
be booked up quick...

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 99 20:50:31 +0000
From: igor@truserve.com
Subject: My spreadsheet

> Andy Akins was supposed to come out with a revision of his spreadsheet that
> would include stats for both BL and the companion game _Battle Rider_, but
> he's been enslaved by a cute baby.

No really, he's telling the truth...I would have it done, except for the hypnotic 
cooing of her royal highness, Rebecca Anne Akins....

..truthfully, I have done some work on the BL/BR stats for the spreadsheet but have 
been slowed down by the birth of my daughter, my chemotherapy, and graduating from 
college. All very time intensive things, to be sure. But as soon as I've got it done, 
I'll tell the list.

I promise. No, really. I wouldn't lie...

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                           |
| Home: igor@truserve.com - www.truserve.com/~igor/ - AOL IM: Iowa Akins |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - www.cms-gt.com/ - AOL IM: CMS Andya           |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+      |
|       vi+ da+                                                          |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+        |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                               |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:12:11 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Phantom Menace (No Spoilers)

Imagine my surprise when I discovered The Phantom Menace Running on my TV
last night! I'll make a few comments, but won't give away oany of the
plot...

First of all, it had nothing to do with Star Wars, and didn't even seem to
be especially futuristic. It all took place on this desert planet, and
everything seemed to revolve around a cantina called "Rick's Cafe
Americaine." The leads were played by Humphrey Bogart and Claude Rains, and
Ingrid Bergman was the love interest.

Frankly, I was disappointed. No decent special effects, the costumes were
nothing like the previous SW movies, and the whole thing was done in black
and white.

Loren "Perhaps I've been working too hard" Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 14:21:44 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Phantom Menace (No Spoilers)

Loren Wiseman wrote:
> 

> First of all, it had nothing to do with Star Wars, and didn't even seem to
> be especially futuristic. It all took place on this desert planet, and
> everything seemed to revolve around a cantina called "Rick's Cafe
> Americaine." The leads were played by Humphrey Bogart and Claude Rains, and
> Ingrid Bergman was the love interest.
>

"The Force is just the Force...
...A Droid is just a droid..."

<Thwack><OWCH> Ok ok I'll stop, just don't 
<thwack><OWCH> use that thing on me anymore!!!

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 14:36:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Phantom Menace (No Spoilers)

On Wed, 19 May 1999, Loren Wiseman wrote:

> First of all, it had nothing to do with Star Wars, and didn't even seem to
> be especially futuristic. It all took place on this desert planet, and
> everything seemed to revolve around a cantina called "Rick's Cafe
> Americaine." The leads were played by Humphrey Bogart and Claude Rains, and
> Ingrid Bergman was the love interest.

I don't think you'll find the one playing in theaters to be superior in
any way at all to the version you describe.  ;)

Brannon

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:31:26 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

Mark Urbin wrote:

>>C++ is the improved version of C
>
>No, Assembly is the improved version of C.
>
>C++ is just C with Object Oriented support kludged in. :-)

Ah, C++. A language with all the power of assembly - and all the
readability of assembly ;>

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:02:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Slavery within Traveller

>You made some very good points, and I was impressed by the numbers that you
>used to back up your argument.  One point which I do dispute is your
>contention that many people in the US are convicted every year for slavery.
>I'm pretty alert to all those sweatshop/indentured servitude stories that hit
>the news. I feel that it supports my proposition that institutional "slavery"
>has tended to be eliminated as technology has progressed.  Criminals will
>always coerce and victimize whoever they can, they always have and probably
>always will.  However, note that what you cited as current day evidence is
>criminal activity, abhored by most, and prosecuted often.
>Economic serfdom, Corporate worlds and all those Feudal Technocracies, hmmm,
>now that's another thing!  :-)

A couple of years ago the Guardian ran a story about sweatshop-type
operations using contract labour, being run in US protectorates. Apparently
they had armed guards and barbed wire to keep people inside (until they had
paid off their transportation costs, and any additional costs for
room-and-board).

The reason for doing this in a US protectorate was that the clothing then
could have a "Made in the USA" label.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:02:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

>>Besides, my comment about spinning mechanical devices was tautological
>>for Classic Traveller, where holo crystal storage is canonical at
>>TL12, IIRC.
>
>You remember incorrectly.
>There is no mention of the form storage takes in the TL tables, it merely
>says that Model 6 computers are available at TL12.
>Holo-crystals are a Star Trek thing, not a Travelller thing.

If you treat DGP material as canon, then holocrystals are canon.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 00:23:23 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: MT enhanced character generation

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 99-05-18 22:31:01 EDT, you write:
>
> << Has anyone made enhanced character generation rules for all the careers?
>  Like Pirates, Rogues, Scientists, Law Enforceres, etc... >>
>
> Is this like the special duty for something?  Is there a version of that for
> T4?
> -Stephen

I'm working on just such a thing, but I've been distracted and out of
town for a bit.  I'm on the downhill side but just barely.  Once I'm caught up
with work, I'll have something to show.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:13:22 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: My Web Page - Check it out

Its up!
goto http://members.aol.com/srkoala/index.html
- -Stephen
Questions, comments, ect, please

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:13:20
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Phantom Menace (No Spoilers)

At 04:12 PM 5/19/99 -0600, you wrote:

>Loren "Perhaps I've been working too hard" Wiseman

Loren, y'all live in Texas now, and it's getting on towards summer.  They
wear those hats for a *reason*.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:29:26 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Price of Freight

Keven R. Pittsinger writes:

>>>I see the 1KCr/ton rate to be the absolute rock bottom limit that *nobody*
>>>will go below.  But with competition being what it is, I see it as the most
>>>common price as well.  When you've got X ships competing for X-1 lots of
>>>freight, you have to underbid to get the contract.
>> 
>>   But what if someone can actually make an acceptable profit at Cr 950/Dt?
>>Is there a reason why they don't even try to drive out their (inefficient)
>>competitors? 
> 
>What do you considder acceptable?
  
6.25% of my investment would do me nicely.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 17:28:24 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: Phantom Menace (No Spoilers)

Leave Loren alone.
 Its not even HOT here yet.
Though he may have been struck by lightening during our recent rash of
thunderstorms :)

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: Phantom Menace (No Spoilers)


>At 04:12 PM 5/19/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>Loren "Perhaps I've been working too hard" Wiseman
>
>Loren, y'all live in Texas now, and it's getting on towards summer.  They
>wear those hats for a *reason*.
>--
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:39:09 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: One StarWars request: NO SPOILERS, no info, no nothing!

Please, 
if possible, do not mention ANY part of the plot, CGI, characters, etc. of
the new Star Wars movie on this list, without including a 45 line spoiler
space.

I want to see that movie unspoilt, fresh, new, without any information and 
dont want to have to stop reading the TML to do so.

An yes, it does s*ck knowing that Ill have to wait *at least* till August,
19th 
to see it over here!

So please, be kind to a poor European!
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:48:30 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

At 08:26 AM 5/19/99 EDT, Fred Kiesche wrote:
>characters from the film, etc., are welcome. Heck, my first Traveller 
>campaign was heavily influenced by the first SW movie and (even more so)
Alan 
>Dean Foster's novel "Splinter of the Mind's Eye". So bring them on, just 

Since I was 10 in 1977, I didn't rush out to see Star Wars. I was however, 
reading Heinlen, Niven, Clarke, Pournelle, and anyone else I could get my
hands on. Traveller fit right into this "Golden Age of Science Fiction",
no light sabres, no creatures living in vacuums, lasers were light beams and
didn't make the noise you get when you hit a cable supporting a telephone
pole with a piece of metal, and when ships exploded in space: they made no
noise!

I didn't see Star Wars until I was in my 20's, and was not surprised that
what I had read about it was true: It did more damage to science fiction
than any other movie before or since. (Now Bladerunner, Outlands? (Sean 
Connery, Jupiter), 2001, ... they were SF movies!)


- -- 
Should've been dead on a Sunday morning
banging my head / no time for mourning
ain't got no time  -- Creed
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #647
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 20 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 648



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Computer Technology
re: : A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Price of Freight 
Re: Price of Freight 
Press Release from Sansterre
Re: Economics of service stations 
what goes around comes around
GT Type P (Corsair)?
Re: My Web Page - Check it out
Re: Phantom Menace (No Spoilers)
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Light Sabers (no star wars spoilers)
Re: : A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Light Sabers (no star wars spoilers)
Re: Analog Aliens
Re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Re: MT enhanced character generation
Re: Light Sabers (no star wars spoilers)
Re: Light Sabers (no star wars spoilers)
Re: Light Sabers (no star wars spoilers)
Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)
Re: One StarWars request: NO SPOILERS, no info, no nothing!
Re: Space Combat Question
Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)
Query
Re: _Brilliant Lances_
Re: anagathics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:20:20 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

"Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:
>>>Anyway, as far as computer technology goes we have everything that ST-TOS
>>>had (other than a few super weapons, such as the universal translator)
>now.
>>My ST (with TOS1.04) never had any superweapons or a universal translator.
>Damn !
>You are really good at ruining keyboards., Dom.

Sorry :-/

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:23:57 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: : A plea for cinema restraint...

 Diespamer@aol.com writes:

>A request for restraint! The Phantom Menace comes out today, and I'm sure a
>lot of list members actually saw it last night or will see it Real Soon Now.
>Could you please restrain comments that will spoil the plot for those of us
>with time constraints, or who live in countries that won't see the film for a
>while, etc.

Seconded....
>(Traveller Since 1977)
Aged six in 77, and saw it twice with my dad.

>(Star Wars Fan Since 1977--saw the each of the three movies first day of
>release, which was of course, before I had Significant Commitments!)

Have booked 16th July 99 (UK release date) off with the SO's permission to
go and see it with some friends.
Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:21:37 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Price of Freight 

> Keven R. Pittsinger writes:
> 
> >>>I see the 1KCr/ton rate to be the absolute rock bottom limit that *nobody*
> >>>will go below.  But with competition being what it is, I see it as the most
> >>>common price as well.  When you've got X ships competing for X-1 lots of
> >>>freight, you have to underbid to get the contract.
> >> 
> >>   But what if someone can actually make an acceptable profit at Cr 950/Dt?
> >>Is there a reason why they don't even try to drive out their (inefficient)
> >>competitors? 
> > 
> >What do you considder acceptable?
>   
> 6.25% of my investment would do me nicely.

Is a 6.25% return at 950/ton possible?

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:24:41 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Price of Freight 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Price of Freight 
> >
> >> >I see the 1KCr/ton rate to be the absolute rock bottom limit that *nobody*
> >> will go below.  But with competition being what it is, I see it as the most
> >> common price as well.  When you've got X ships competing for X-1 lots of
> >> freight, you have to underbid to get the contract.
> >> 
> >>   But what if someone can actually make an acceptable profit at Cr 950/Dt?
> >> Is there a reason why they don't even try to drive out their (inefficient)
> >> competitors? 
> >
> >What do you considder acceptable?
> 
>   Bundles of unarked bills, small denominations...  .. oh, reasons?
> Maybe the laws prevent it - maybe custom does. I'd just like to see
> a case made for a believable reason for the OTU.

OK.  Got any numbers showing profitability at 950/ton with a normal (i.e., 
*NOT* a 'drop tank special') ship?

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:25:44 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Press Release from Sansterre

Dateline: Jokelyn, Limon/Reft Sector

The courier vessel RSN _Outreach_ arrived in the Jokelyn system today, 
bearing reports from the government of Sansterre (Old Islands/Reft Sector) 
that the entire Islands Cluster had inexplicably moved to a war footing. 
Due to the extreme isolation of the Islands Cluster from the Imperium,
no independent confirmation of the situation is available at this time.

There was little detailed information presented to the media, but 
representatives of the Sansterrean government were said to be meeting
with the Imperial Governor in charge of the Jokelyn outpost. Other 
Sansterrean diplomats were seen boarding an Imperiallines charter
vessel, said to be bound for the Imperial Navy Base at Rampart
(Limon/Reft Sector) and points deeper within the Imperium. There are
also reports, though unconfirmed, that representatives of at least two
major StarMerc organizations were travelling with the Sansterrean party. 

A press release from a Sansterrean spokesophont follows:
- --------------------------------
"The free peoples of Sansterre have been deeply disturbed by the 
current troubles in the Islands Cluster. Once upon a time, we were
all peaceful worlds, seperated by distance but bound together by
our common roots. Our time of war came with the introduction of
the Jump Drive, but the Imperium aided us in redressing the balance
and bringing peace to the cluster, a peace that has been long and
fruitful. 

Now, there is again the rattlings of sabers, the passage of warships.
It is apparent that, once more, we must ask the aid of our peace-loving
neighbors, the Third Imperium, in bringing a just peace to the spacelanes
of the Cluster. Let our history bring us closer, and mutual action make
us allies in this chaotic time.

The government of Sansterre hereby volunteers itself to the cause of 
peace in the Islands Cluster. With the technological and material aid
of the mighty Imperium, we know that the Sansterrean Fleet can
seperate the belligerent and demilitarize the militant. It will be a long,
hard struggle, but with fortitude and cooperation we will see the end of
war and a just peace in the Cluster, for all our children and our
childrens' children.

Thor Heyrden
Ambassador of Her Majesty's Government
Sansterre
- -----------------------------


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:31:11 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of service stations 

> Keven R. Pittsinger writes:
> 
> >Considering I don't *have* an economic model.  I simply maintained that a 400 
> >ton ship *and* a fueling station costs more than a 400 ton ship by itself.  
> 
> I must be getting old and forgetful. I could have sworn that several weeks
> ago a number of people explained to you that, yes, a 400 T ship plus a
> fuelling station costs more than a 400 T ship alone but that 1) the cost
> per unit transported is lower, because you can transport a lot more units,
> and 2) that, say, 10 300 T ships and a fuelling station costs less than
> 10 400 T ships. [Not in those exact words].

I was talking *startup costs*.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:47:53 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: what goes around comes around

> From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>

> I checked with both Hertz and Avis.  The price is about double if we

Maybe some virus or psionic effect or near-c rock is causing emails
pertaining to rental cars to be erroneously sent to the Traveller
Mailing List.  First Ethan, now me.  Hmmm....

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 17:25:14 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: GT Type P (Corsair)?

Anyone have the GT stats for this ship? (can't wait for GT:Starships!  Does 
this violate the no P-word policy? :)

Mike
P.S. Thanks to all those math gurus who have posted ship stats...Those of us 
who can't add are eternally thankful!!


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 20:34:39 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: My Web Page - Check it out

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Its up!
> goto http://members.aol.com/srkoala/index.html
> -Stephen
> Questions, comments, ect, please

Well it's bare-bones so far.  I viewed it with Netscape Communicator
4.60 and your MIDI failed to play - Netscape was fooled into thinking it
needed to search for a new plug-in, which it didn't find.

So I fired up Internet Explorer 5.0 and it responded with "The data that
the plugin requested, did not download properly."

What's "mars.mid" sound like?  Is it from "Holst : The Planets"?

- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 20:37:14 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Phantom Menace (No Spoilers)

> Leave Loren alone.
>  Its not even HOT here yet.
> Though he may have been struck by lightening during our recent rash of
> thunderstorms :)
> 

Dang!  We just had a thunderstorm today, here in New Hampshire.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:54:13 -0500
From: Mark A Nordstrand <markn@visi.com>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

> You know, I still use I, J, K, etc as integer counting variables
> when I program.  ;-> That much of Fortran has stuck with me all
> these years. 
> 
> Eris,
>     passing programming habits to a new generation.

Ah, but the real test is if you still use the default floating point
variables.  I (fortunately) have had many many years of C to eradicate 
those from my habits and have fallen into the d and f (double and 
float) variation.  FWIW, I'm pretty i j and k are used in thoughout
K&R.

(and this is probably the only thing constructive I could post to 
this thread).

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 20:02:34 -0500
From: Mark A Nordstrand <markn@visi.com>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

(well, shucks, I can contribute something else to this thread)

> Or, from the "You may be a wirehead..." list:
> 
> "...if, upon hearing the term 'G-string', your first thought is an
> alphanumeric variable."

I still always think of 'the next string high than a d-string.'
Having played bass, I've always wondered if that was the origin of
that item.....

And as another synchronis aside, when the mention of i j and k was
made, I thought of cursor movement....

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:38:46 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Light Sabers (no star wars spoilers)

With all the excitement of Star Wars, I know my players are going to be
wanting Light Sabers... is their any scientific way these could be possible?
Even if by handwave? Something believable... I know it can be easy to except
a little fantasy... but if their was a way to do and have it work in the
regular background...

I was thinking of Marines that had light saber tradition rather than
cutlass. ...or even a close combat weapon for troops in battle dress. I was
considering (MT stats) of having a Dmg of 3 and Pen of 20 (Like a TL laser
rifle)

What about ancient artifiacts? Certainly the ancients could have devised
light sabers... I guess all it would really take is high power cells that
fit in the size of a flashlight. ...of course, this opens up a whole nother
can of worms with "blasters" and other high energy weapons. ...but a find at
an ancients site would eliminate their being common place.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:30:45 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: : A plea for cinema restraint...

>
> Have booked 16th July 99 (UK release date) off with the SO's permission to
> go and see it with some friends.
> Dom
>

I consider myself lucky. My wifes friends brother who knows a guy that works
at the theater (this sounds silly) convinced his manager that if he presold
400 tickets they would make an extra showing of Star Wars on Saturday at
7:30am. I snatched up 6 tickets before they were all gone. I didn't think
I'd see the movie for atleast a month after it came out... I never would
have though I'd see it on the fourth day.

As for all the critics... I don't care. I'm going to go see the new Star
Wars and it'll be good no matter what. :-)

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:22:28 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Light Sabers (no star wars spoilers)

Shawn Campbell wrote:
> 
> With all the excitement of Star Wars, I know my players are going to be
> wanting Light Sabers... is their any scientific way these could be possible?
> Even if by handwave? Something believable... I know it can be easy to except
> a little fantasy... but if their was a way to do and have it work in the
> regular background...

One way to work light-sabre-like weapons into a Traveller setting,
without doing _too_ much damage to the technological setting, is to
postulate that a light sabre is actually a set of monomolecular
filaments, held rigid by a visible gravitic beam.  Since Traveller has
gravitic manipulation, and monomolecular filaments are not _too_
implausible, one can avoid the problems that might arise from, say, a
laser-based light sabre (e.g., why does it only reach out to a meter or
so in length...).  This would also explain such oddities as the fact
that one light sabre can block another.  It could even be stretched to
the point of explaining the _sound_ of a light sabre moving through the
air....

<<snip>>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:26:40 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

Juliean Galak wrote:
> 
> At 09:32 AM 5/15/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >  You know, pirates could probably use drop tanks to deply from their
> >hidden tribe bases to their interdiction stations, and thus have full
> >internal tankage to return to base.
> >
> >  No doubt the tanks could be refurbished by the same facilities that
> >handle annual maintenance, combat repairs, and new builds.
> 
> To prevent retaliation from Imperial forces, they can fire automated jump
> torps loaded with Virus eggs (or whatever they are called) against nearby
> Imperial bases.
> 
> They can also use near-c rocks to hold world's hostage.
> 
> Furthermore, they are actually employed by Strephon's clone.
> 
> Did I miss anything?

Yes.  You forgot to mention that the pirates in question are actually
lesbian Aslan, using TL-15 tech recovered from 2d Imperium [Rule of Man]
ruins....  >;-)

<<snip>>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:28:20 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: 3I Raising Military Forces

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 5/15/99 1:42:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:
> 
> << Wow; you know you legionary history. You cleared up a lot of questions I
>  had...
>   >>
> 
>         Well, that's my business.
> 
>                         Dave Nelson

Ave!  Ave Nelson!  Ave Nelson Imperator!  ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:04:20 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: MT enhanced character generation

In a message dated 99-05-19 18:18:33 EDT, you write:

<< I'm working on just such a thing, but I've been distracted and out of
 town for a bit.  I'm on the downhill side but just barely.  Once I'm caught 
up
 with work, I'll have something to show. >>

 Cool, I can't weight to see it!
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:19:46 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Light Sabers (no star wars spoilers)

What if the beam of the light sabre is sheathed in a gravitic
containment field?
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:27:16 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Light Sabers (no star wars spoilers)

So, how would you set the damage/penetration for this idea? (based on MT
rules)

...and what's a monomolecular filament?

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

Black Ice wrote:
> One way to work light-sabre-like weapons into a Traveller setting,
> without doing _too_ much damage to the technological setting, is to
> postulate that a light sabre is actually a set of monomolecular
> filaments, held rigid by a visible gravitic beam.  Since Traveller has
> gravitic manipulation, and monomolecular filaments are not _too_
> implausible, one can avoid the problems that might arise from, say, a
> laser-based light sabre (e.g., why does it only reach out to a meter or
> so in length...).  This would also explain such oddities as the fact
> that one light sabre can block another.  It could even be stretched to
> the point of explaining the _sound_ of a light sabre moving through the
> air....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:27:07 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Light Sabers (no star wars spoilers)

At 07:38 PM 5/19/99 -0700, you wrote:
>What about ancient artifiacts? Certainly the ancients could have devised
>light sabers... I guess all it would really take is high power cells that
>fit in the size of a flashlight. ...of course, this opens up a whole nother
>can of worms with "blasters" and other high energy weapons. ...but a find at
>an ancients site would eliminate their being common place.

Power cells aren't the problem.  The problem is to get a beam of energy to
limit itself to a specific length and be solid against itself!  Just a
flashlight laser won't do.  It would have a long range and if you tried to
parry it with itself, the beams would just cross (uhmm... that's a
different movie... oh well...).  You really need to make something entirely
different...  Maybe high-energy plasma contained by a gravitic field?  and
the gravitic fields can't pass through each other?  (The plasma, of course,
is just there for the cool glow...)

I really think the only way to do this is with a total handwave (Ancients
tech _is_ a total handwave).  IMHO, light sabres are inappropriate to the
Traveller universe, but YMMV.  For a (slightly) less handwaved version,
consider monowire or hyperdense weapons.  when wielded by a battlesuited
trooper they can be quite effective.

Or play the Star Wars RPG, which is fun too.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:35:53 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)

In a message dated 99-05-18 07:11:32 EDT, you write:

<< > What about the ship from Encounter w/ Tiber?
 
 Sorry, I haven't read that one.
  >>

It's a cool book about several generashions of astronoughts.  It starts with 
a ship leaving Earth under matter/anti-matter drive, it then goes back to the 
launching of the US hab to the space station and the crash.  I don't rember 
were it goes from there, but I'm rereading the book so, I'll post to the list 
what I get done with the book.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:58:40 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: One StarWars request: NO SPOILERS, no info, no nothing!

Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de> requests:

>Please, 
>if possible, do not mention ANY part of the plot, CGI, characters, etc. of
>the new Star Wars movie on this list, without including a 45 line spoiler
>space.
>
>I want to see that movie unspoilt, fresh, new, without any information and 
>dont want to have to stop reading the TML to do so.
>

>So please, be kind to a poor European!
>Volker


 Can't promise a complete blackout, but I'll try to be circumspect and give
lots of warning...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:57:41 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Space Combat Question

At 02:56 AM 5/19/99 EDT, you wrote:
>Hi,
>As you may now I just got my T4 book.  On web pages I have seen
tables like 
>the fallowing:
>Area  Surface hits                  internal explosion
>
>1     1-4 radar ant, 5 maser ant,   electronics
>      6 Avionics ant
>2     1 radio ant, 2-5 HRT ant,     1-6 quarters, 7-18 gunnery, 19
hold
>      6 airlock                     20 engineering
>3                                   1-10 engineering, 11-20 hold
>4-17  1-12 large cargo hatch (area  hold
>      7 only)                       hold
>18    1 air lock                    1-8 hold, 9-20 engineering
>19-20                               engineering
>
>What do the mean, what are the for and how do I create them for T4,
and how 
>do I use them?


	These are damage tables for TNE or Brilliant Lances. For surface
hits, you roll 1d20 to see which area you hit. Then consult the SH
column to find out what's in that area. If there's something there,
roll again to see what you hit, or if you missed everything that was
in that area (they don't necessarily occupy the whole area: on a roll
of 18, above, the air lock only occupies a small part. On a roll of 1
you hit the airlock, otherwise just the bare hull). If you damage
something, subtract its damage rating from the attack. If the
remaining damage is greater than zero, there's enough energy left to
go into the armor. Multiply the armor by the weapon's penetration
rating to determine how much of the attack is absorbed by the hull,
and subtract that from the remaining damage. If anything is left
over, the attack penetrates to the corresponding internal location
(18, in this case). Roll again to see which portion of the internal
space you hit, and apply remaining damage there.

	If you're using a meson gun, ignore surface hits and armor, and
proceed directly to internal explosions.

	To create the table: buy FF&S (v1) or Brilliant Lances.

- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:14:42 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)

At 10:21 PM 5/18/1999 -0500, Eris wrote:
>On 05/17/99 at 10:18 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>
> >>> That very idea was used by Daniel da Cruz (?) for 'The Ayes of 
> Texas', in
> >>> which the battleship Texas is rebuilt while still on display.
> >>
> >> Is it a novel?  Written when?
>
> >It's the first of a *series* of novels. It came out 10-15 years back.
>
>I read the first two, were there others in that series?
I believe that there were three books in the series, but it was a long time 
ago, in a galaxy far, far aw...I mean packed away in a box somewhere.

Jimmy Simpson
       nimrodd@fastlane.net

"... you may all go to hell
and I will go to Texas."
                       -David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:35:24 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Query

>They would need to last at least 50 refills to actually work out cheaper than
>fixed tanks.
>
>Presumably they would be useable for any bulk liquid or powder transport, if
>such an opportunity presented itself. 
>
>Hmmmm, ISS beer contract anyone?  Probably need a fair size fleet for that :-)

  Don't they just recycle it?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:36:00 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: _Brilliant Lances_

>Subject: Re: Space Combat Question
...
>Those are combat tables for _Brilliant Lances_, which was the combat system
>for _Traveller: The New Era_.  This is well worth finding, as it's one of
>the better space combat systems around.

  Titan Games just got in a copy for $23 US (IIRC).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:36:13 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: anagathics

>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
>Subject: Re: Computer Technology
...
>I like this idea.  As I recall, the best anagathics in the Imperium were
>made from the sperm or roe of the tree kraken (which lives only on a few
>worlds in the Spinward Marches), and were used by the Emperor himself
>(that's mentioned in some of the early GDW adventures).  The
>introduction of these synthetics might lead to all sorts of societal
>dislocation, as people of ordinary means become able to find and buy them.  

  Read Christopher Rowley's "The Black Ship" et al. (actually read any or all
of his SF, but I would say that...)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #648
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 20 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 649



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Space Combat Question
Re: My Web Page - Check it out
Re: Space Combat Question
Re: Prisoners, questioning there of was:Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Light Sabers (no star wars spoilers)
Re: Economics of service stations 
Re: Spreadsheet for GURPS
Fw: Star Wars vs. Titanic
Re: Price of Freight
Shipping costs recap
Re: Price of Freight 
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Re: : A plea for cinema restraint...
On Virus, etc.
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Shipping costs recap
Re: Phantom Menace
Re: Phantom Menace
Re: _Brilliant Lances_
Re: Fw: Star Wars vs. Titanic
Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)
Re: 3I raising military forces

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 01:38:17 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Space Combat Question

In a message dated 99-05-20 01:16:58 EDT, you write:

<< 	These are damage tables for TNE or Brilliant Lances. For surface
 hits, you roll 1d20 to see which area you hit. Then consult the SH
 column to find out what's in that area. If there's something there,
 roll again to see what you hit, or if you missed everything that was
 in that area (they don't necessarily occupy the whole area: on a roll
 of 18, above, the air lock only occupies a small part. On a roll of 1
 you hit the airlock, otherwise just the bare hull). If you damage
 something, subtract its damage rating from the attack. If the
 remaining damage is greater than zero, there's enough energy left to
 go into the armor. Multiply the armor by the weapon's penetration
 rating to determine how much of the attack is absorbed by the hull,
 and subtract that from the remaining damage. If anything is left
 over, the attack penetrates to the corresponding internal location
 (18, in this case). Roll again to see which portion of the internal
 space you hit, and apply remaining damage there.
 
 	If you're using a meson gun, ignore surface hits and armor, and
 proceed directly to internal explosions.
 
 	To create the table: buy FF&S (v1) or Brilliant Lances.
  >>
Sound like it is not to hard to adapt for T4.  I assume that you just take 
the total area and take the percentage that each componet takes up, and the 
same for internal?  The question is what order do I but them in?  If there is 
an order to put them in what modifiers are there for it?  
Does the damage that the hull abosords get subtracted from the armor rating?  
and does this use the real values or the USD values?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 01:58:27 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: My Web Page - Check it out

In a message dated 99-05-19 20:31:37 EDT, you write:

<< Well it's bare-bones so far.  I viewed it with Netscape Communicator
 4.60 and your MIDI failed to play - Netscape was fooled into thinking it
 needed to search for a new plug-in, which it didn't find.

xxxx
It's something to do with the server, I think.
xxx 

 So I fired up Internet Explorer 5.0 and it responded with "The data that
 the plugin requested, did not download properly."
 
 What's "mars.mid" sound like?  Is it from "Holst : The Planets"? >>

Yeap, so far the only othe person who has identified it.  After the 26th I'll 
have time to more.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 02:11:58 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Space Combat Question

In a message dated 99-05-19 11:57:20 EDT, you write:

<< Those are combat tables for _Brilliant Lances_, which was the combat system
 for _Traveller: The New Era_.  This is well worth finding, as it's one of
 the better space combat systems around.
 
 Andy Akins was supposed to come out with a revision of his spreadsheet that
 would include stats for both BL and the companion game _Battle Rider_, but
 he's been enslaved by a cute baby.
 --  >>

Do you think that it adds anything to the game?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 02:16:39 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Prisoners, questioning there of was:Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In a message dated 99-05-19 09:17:38 EDT, you write:

<<      Find a good book on the Spetsnaz for lessons in field questioning.
 Truely frightening stuff. >>

Ah, them, nasty guys.  Most liky a good book to have any way, for those realy 
mean and cut thought spec opts.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 23:26:40 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Light Sabers (no star wars spoilers)

>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Re: Light Sabers (no star wars spoilers)
...
>One way to work light-sabre-like weapons into a Traveller setting,
>without doing _too_ much damage to the technological setting, is to
>postulate that a light sabre is actually a set of monomolecular
>filaments, held rigid by a visible gravitic beam.  Since Traveller has
...

  A variable sword! Is the battery rated for 53 years? :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 23:28:11 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of service stations 

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of service stations 
...
>> I must be getting old and forgetful. I could have sworn that several weeks
>> ago a number of people explained to you that, yes, a 400 T ship plus a
>> fuelling station costs more than a 400 T ship alone but that 1) the cost
>> per unit transported is lower, because you can transport a lot more units,
>> and 2) that, say, 10 300 T ships and a fuelling station costs less than
>> 10 400 T ships. [Not in those exact words].
>
>I was talking *startup costs*.

  Which are at best only marginally relevant to the issue.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 23:36:18 -0800
From: Mike Wittek <mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com>
Subject: Re: Spreadsheet for GURPS

I made a slight error on this request. It is Corel Quattro Pro format not
Paradox format.

Mike Wittek wrote:

> All:
> I am looking for a spreadsheet for the VEHICLES book, so I can design
> starships and weapons for GURPS: TRAVELLER. I would prefer Corel Paradox
> format, but I could use Excel format. Anyone know where I can find such
> a spreadsheet?

Thanks,
- --
Mike Wittek | Vacaville, California
mailto:mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com | http://www.thelair.cnchost.com
     "Democracy isn't just the best form of government; It's the only one
even remotely worth a damn. Only democracy guarantees that people get what
they deserve."   --Zena Marley

REQ'D DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may not
be the opinion of my school or electronic courier. For that matter, it may
not be your opinion, but deal with it.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:07:37 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Fw: Star Wars vs. Titanic

>>Reasons why Star Wars is better than Titanic
>>--------------------------------------------
>>
>>+ Titanic's big, but it doesn't have hyperdrive.
>>
>>+ Star Wars has way cooler action figure potential.
>>
>>+ Yoda could use the Force to lift Titanic out of the water.
>>
>>+ Leia is a princess, a senator, a freedom fighter, and Jedi material;
>>  Rose is just marriage bait.
>>
>>+ Ewoks throw better parties than either first class or steerage.
>>
>>+ When flying towards the Titanic, Wedge can't say "Look at the size of
>>  that thing!" and really mean it.
>>
>>+ It would be much scarier to get chased around the boat by a raving
>>  madman with a lightsaber as opposed to a handgun.
>>
>>+ Titanic is egalitarian by portraying poor people as sympathetic
>>  characters. Star Wars is egalitarian by promoting bug-eyed amphibians to
>>  Admiral.
>>
>>+ Said bug-eyed amphibious Admiral manages NOT to lose his ship.
>>
>>+ We know Cal is the bad guy because he sneers at the poor and treats his
>>  fiancee like property. We know Darth Vader is the bad guy because he
>>  strangles people and blows up planets for fun.
>>
>>+ Leo can dance, but can he fly an X-wing?
>>
>>+ There are always enough escape pods in Star Wars.
>>
>>+ Do you know what the Empire does to self-proclaimed "kings of the
>>  world"?
>>
>>+ If Luke were handcuffed to a pipe below decks in a sinking ship, he
>>  would use the Force to get the key.
>>
>>+ "I'd rather be his whore than your wife" just doesn't have the same
>>   sting as "I'd rather kiss a Wookie."
>>
>>+ Han is frozen in carbonite and turned into a wall ornament. Leo simply
>>  freezes.
>>
>>+ We knew the boat was gonna sink. But who could've anticipated "Luke... I
>>  am your father"?
>>
>>+ Han Solo would've missed the iceberg.
>>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:08:33 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Price of Freight

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Price of Freight 
...
>Is a 6.25% return at 950/ton possible?

  You mean you haven't run the numbers?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:28:08 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Shipping costs recap

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Price of Freight 
...
>> >> >I see the 1KCr/ton rate to be the absolute rock bottom limit that
*nobody*
>> >> will go below.  But with competition being what it is, I see it as the
most
>> >> common price as well.  When you've got X ships competing for X-1 lots of
>> >> freight, you have to underbid to get the contract.
...
>OK.  Got any numbers showing profitability at 950/ton with a normal (i.e., 
>*NOT* a 'drop tank special') ship?

  The format following should be easily recognizable by now - I even put in
the correct USP for the F-5! A close look at the drop tank numbers will show
a very ironic trend :)  Last time I checked Cr ~465 was lower than Cr 950.

F-1 1kt JumpExpressCo Main Liner XR-A411121-050000-55000-0  MCr 187.2  1kt TL F
        Cargo=728. Passengers=17. LHyd=110. EP=10. Agility=0. Low=0. Crew=8.

F-5 1kt JumpExpressCo Fast Liner XR-A451552-050000-85000-0  MCr 452.4  1kt TL F
        Cargo=196. Passengers=17. LHyd=550. EP=50. Agility=1. Low=0. Crew=10.

  Calculations are approximate - maintenance at 0.1%, wages, life support, 
and fuel are ignored below. Cargo charge is low, as some portion of revenue
is from passage charged at a similar premium.
 Unit  Mortgage/a.  basic rev./a.  Premium  Cargo charge
  F-1   MCr  9.36      MCr 31.08      -69%     > Cr   305
  F-5   MCr 22.62      MCr 12.46      >82%     > Cr 1,820

DROP TANKS - 50% cost recovery of tanks:
 Unit  Ops. Cost/a.  basic rev./a.  Premium  Cargo charge
  F-1   MCr 11.11      MCr 34.58      -67%     > Cr   350
  F-5   MCr 31.37      MCr 32.20      = 0%     ~ Cr 1,000
        
        Steven Hudson

    ** JumpExpressCo - When Too Fast Is Never Enough!(tm) **

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 03:31:37 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Price of Freight 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Price of Freight 
> ...
> >Is a 6.25% return at 950/ton possible?
> 
>   You mean you haven't run the numbers?

Nope.  I told you.  I'm not an economist.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:39:38 -0700
From: "James W. Brewer" <jwbrewer@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In a message dated 99-05-19 00:22:41 EDT, you write:

<< ObTrav:  How many Traveller referees out there have players who know how
 to interrogate captured NPCs?  Not many, I'd bet.... >>

I was always taught that a field phone and some commo wire will do wonders,
just don't get caught.  Of course players always seem to like to shoot
people to make someone else talk.  In a Real World(tm) situation a friend
turned over two prisoners for interogation to the intel officer for the
unit he was attached to as an advisor only to see him shoot the older one
of the pair to encourage the other.  The younger prisoner was then willing
to tell him everything including the fact that he had just shot the local
force Bn CO.

Jim Brewer    

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:35:07 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: 3I Raising Military Forces

>> << Wow; you know you legionary history. 
>> 
>>         Well, that's my business.
>> 
>>                         Dave Nelson
>
>Ave!  Ave Nelson!  Ave Nelson Imperator!  ;-)

Nos morituri, te salutamus  !

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:53:47 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: : A plea for cinema restraint...

>Seconded....
>>(Traveller Since 1977)
>Aged six in 77, and saw it twice with my dad.
>
>>(Star Wars Fan Since 1977--saw the each of the three movies first day of
>>release, which was of course, before I had Significant Commitments!)
>
>Have booked 16th July 99 (UK release date) off with the SO's permission to
>go and see it with some friends.

NZ release date is June 10, how come UK is so far behind ?

My eldest son is going to the very first showing with his mates, which is at
12.05am, just after midnight. The rest of the family is going 5.45pm with
about 30 of my roleplaying mates and their families, thanks to one of our
number who went down at 5.00am on the day ticket sales started.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:01:26 "GMT"
From: "robocon@ozemail.com.au" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: On Virus, etc.

Virus is a... virus that affects Cymbeline 'chip' lifeforms,
or computers using elements based on the Cymbeline
creatures in their architecture.
IMTU, when the 'chips' were discovered, problems surrounding
synaptic processor design were solved - the 'chips'
were copied!
Dynamically reconfigurable hardware is part of what
is 'under the hood' of the typical Imperial Tech Level
machine.
Virus is a mutagen - in sufficiently advanced machines,
intelligence occurs from aggressive remodelling.
Most computers become insane as a result...

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer


__________________________________________________________
Message sent by MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 04:11:33 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In a message dated 99-05-20 03:40:31 EDT, you write:

<< I was always taught that a field phone and some commo wire will do wonders,
 just don't get caught.  Of course players always seem to like to shoot
 people to make someone else talk.  In a Real World(tm) situation a friend
 turned over two prisoners for interogation to the intel officer for the
 unit he was attached to as an advisor only to see him shoot the older one
 of the pair to encourage the other.  The younger prisoner was then willing
 to tell him everything including the fact that he had just shot the local
 force Bn CO. >>

What is the deal with the field phone and commo wire?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:08:14 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

One comment :

>Analogue computers are not Turing devices -
>
>Quantum devices - also not Turing machines -

Both of these _are_ Turing machines, they are just different implementations
of the same concept
The original layman's description of a Turing machine,  the one talking
about paper tapes and such, describes an analogue device.

There's a reason the Turing universal machine is called that, it's because
_any_ machine, can be desribed by it, irrespective of how it is constructed.

I would agree they don't have a  von Neumann  architecture, but that's a
different thing, it may be that which you are thinking of.

>Quantum devices - also not Turing machines -
>would be a further advance, but  don't exist yet.

Not entirely true. The SQuID is a quantum device and was originally produced
in the 1980's

>The only other advance in sight is the development of
>self-organising, self-aware devices (thinking machines).

Which, btw, are also Turing machines. (just extremely complex ones)
And which has already been done at least once on this planet.
<grin>

>We are on the threshold of both, so just maybe we are at TL 9 going on TL
10, but more
>likely at TL 8, going on TL 9. You are mostly looking at the way we are
>'packaging' what we have been able to do for many years, rather than any
>real advances in what we can do. A tad over-optimistic about our
technology.

I think you're being a bit hard, AI is TL16 according to Traveler, so if
we're on the threshold of it, even TL10 sounds a bit low.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 04:20:06 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Shipping costs recap

In a message dated 99-05-20 03:31:49 EDT, you write:

<<     ** JumpExpressCo - When Too Fast Is Never Enough!(tm) ** >>

You don't happen to have a jump-20 pcs, do you?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 04:27:58 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Phantom Menace

In a message dated 99-05-19 11:56:41 EDT, you write:

<< >If you want to see the movie with NO prior exposure, then treat this 
message 
 >as a Spoiler. If you've even seen the theater trailers, I'm not giving 
 >anything away...
 >
 >-10
 >-9
 >-8
 >-7
 >-6
 >-5
 >-4
 >-3
 >-2
 >-1
 >0
 >
 >I _almost_ want to put Light Sabers in my Traveller game after seeing this. 
 >Almost. The trailers do not come close to portraying the intensity of the 
 >actual duels...
 >
 >The reviewers are obviously not xenobiologist-wannabees. Jar-Jar is not 
 >nearly as annoying as they all seem to think.
 
 Oh yes he is.  Try seeing the movie if you are hearing impaired.  I
 couldn't understand a single word that thing said, as all of his dialogue
 was right in a range that I'm blanked on.  He came across as an annoying
 whine.  Add in the constant level of backround noise and loud f/x, and I'm
 lucky I read a synopsis before going in.
 
 >The pod race is stunning, and unlike light sabers, pod-racing will fit into 
 >Traveller just fine. The race announcer must be lampooning _someone_, I'm 
 >just not sure who. Pit Droids definitely go into MY next game...
 
 Sounded to me like the TNN announcers for NASCAR. >>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 04:28:18 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Phantom Menace

In a message dated 99-05-19 11:56:41 EDT, you write:

<< >If you want to see the movie with NO prior exposure, then treat this 
message 
 >as a Spoiler. If you've even seen the theater trailers, I'm not giving 
 >anything away...
 >
 >-10
 >-9
 >-8
 >-7
 >-6
 >-5
 >-4
 >-3
 >-2
 >-1
 >0
 >
 >I _almost_ want to put Light Sabers in my Traveller game after seeing this. 
 >Almost. The trailers do not come close to portraying the intensity of the 
 >actual duels...
 >
 >The reviewers are obviously not xenobiologist-wannabees. Jar-Jar is not 
 >nearly as annoying as they all seem to think.
 
 Oh yes he is.  Try seeing the movie if you are hearing impaired.  I
 couldn't understand a single word that thing said, as all of his dialogue
 was right in a range that I'm blanked on.  He came across as an annoying
 whine.  Add in the constant level of backround noise and loud f/x, and I'm
 lucky I read a synopsis before going in.
 
 >The pod race is stunning, and unlike light sabers, pod-racing will fit into 
 >Traveller just fine. The race announcer must be lampooning _someone_, I'm 
 >just not sure who. Pit Droids definitely go into MY next game...
 
 Sounded to me like the TNN announcers for NASCAR. >>

Were did you get a synopsis?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 04:31:45 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: _Brilliant Lances_

In a message dated 99-05-20 01:38:54 EDT, you write:

<< >Those are combat tables for _Brilliant Lances_, which was the combat 
system
 >for _Traveller: The New Era_.  This is well worth finding, as it's one of
 >the better space combat systems around.
 
   Titan Games just got in a copy for $23 US (IIRC).
  >>

How Detailed is the combat?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 03:18:48
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Star Wars vs. Titanic

At 12:07 AM 5/20/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Reasons why Star Wars is better than Titanic

Excuse me?

Kate Winslet naked.  Nuff said.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 05:20:35 -0500
From: Warlord <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)

At 06:05 PM 5/18/99 -0500, you wrote:

>I wrote previously:

>

>>IIRC, non-volatile memory in Traveller does not refer to storage

>>media such as hard drives, disks, CD-ROMS, etc.  The concept, as I

>>understand it, seems to indicate that the RAM of the system is

>>non-volatile.  In other words, you could remove the power from a

>>computer in the midst of processing a complex equation, then later

>>(much later, even) restore power to the system, and the computer

>>would pick right up where it left off, in mid-calculation.  That's

>>the concept I remember being described (and thus the reason why

>>simply unplugging a Virus-ridden system won't deactivate the Virus),

>>but then again, my own memory has been rather faulty of late, so it

>>might help to check that out.  Specific details/descriptions are

>>listed under Book 8: Robots, Grand Census, and MT Ref's Companion. 

>>If I have misunderstood it, and the examples you've provided fit the

>>description of that classification, then I agree with your assessment

>>below, and we're looking at TL 9, with a novelty tech level of TL 10.

>>  Until I've had a chance to look it up, however, I will stand by my

>>TL 8/novelty TL 10 evaluation earlier.  I am prepared to accept the

>>change if I have indeed misunderstood the reference, though.

>

>Now that I'm home, I can look up the description of non-volatile memory.

>Here goes:

>

>>From Book 8, Robots, pg 18, under the Robot Brain:

>Tech Level 9:  Non-volatile computer memories become common, so that no

>power supply is needed to preserve data when the computer is shut off.

>Computers can now be stored powerless for years, and yet pick up where they

>left off as soon as power is resumed.


  Well we do have that now (its been around since the early 60's. Its called..

core ram (it uses iron ferrite cores on a matrix of lines) once the data is written it stays till changed. But it is really too bulky to use in todays PC's but can still be used on Mainframes.


>>From MT's Referee's Companion, pg 30:

>Tech Level 9 (circa 2010):  Non-volatile computer memories become common,

>so that no power supply is needed to preserve data when the computer is

>shut off.  Computers can now be stored powerless for years, and yet pick up

>where they left off as soon as power is resumed.  Practical superconductors

>allow a significant increase in processing speeds.

>

>While the language of the text could be liberally interpretted to cover

>storage media, I am pre-disposed to interpret the above to refer to the

>actual memory accessed and utilized by the CPU, as both texts refer to

>storage media specifically as data storage, not memory.

>

>So I still feel we're at Computer/Robotics TL8, with a big step towards TL

>10 going on.  Once the non-volatile memory situation exists, we have the

>remaining benchmarks for TL 9, and once voice transcription becomes

>commonplace, we'll be at TL 10.

>

>Thanks,

>Jason

>

>

>

- -- 

J&K Computers     | <color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Come Check out
the New Revolution in Internet Business

</color>warlord@means.net |      
<color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>At</color>
<underline><color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby</color></underline><color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param> </color>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:37:52 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

At 15:30 19/05/1999 -0400, Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:

<snip>

>I would distinguish this from the Emperor's Guard, or whatever
>name is appropriate, which IMTU would be an elite unit comprised
>of combat veterans from throughout the Imperium.  Surviving soldiers
>in these units would go on to teach at military acade

This is like a "French Old Guard" model but there are others:

	Third in line children of the nobility (the first in line become
	a planetary governors, the second in line become fleet admirals)
	This would help tie the Imperial family to the nobility,
	alough it does risk the possibility of advancement by
	assassination.

	A hereditary guard, this would promote the loyalty of the guard
	to the Emperor. The guard has no loyalty to the nobility.
	Dismissal from the Guard would be a punishment that destroyed
	the birthright of all your successive generations.

	A "standard" mercenary ticket. Allows the optimisation of cost
	versus performance. (The TL16 unit from FFW would be my choice.)
	This would surely fit the ethos of "economics is everything."

	One small planet, particularly noted for its fighters (because
	its a frontier world with severe geography) provides the
	guard who uphold not only their own honour but that of their
	entire planet.

I believe that all of the above methods have been used by countries
here on Earth. The main problem of using combat veterans is that:
	(a) it weakens the units they are drawn from,
	(b) they might not be the most suitable for the ceremonial
	    standing around that is required,
	(c) you end up with all your best troops in a unit that is
	    too valuable/high profile to use in combat.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #649
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 20 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 650



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Fwd: Megatraveller ship design
Re: Phantom Menace (No Spoilers)
Re: 3I raising military forces
Re: Phantom Menace (No Spoilers)
Re: One StarWars request: NO SPOILERS, no info, no nothing!
Re: Fw: Star Wars vs. Titanic
Light Sabers in MT
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Fun things to do with a field phone
Re: Grounding a starship
Non-volatile memory and Voice Transcription
Re: Light Sabers (no star wars spoilers)
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
ADMIN: Movie Stuff and Off Topic Posts
Re: Star Wars vs. Titanic
Macromolecules
ADMIN:  List Changes a commin'

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 05:04:38 PDT
From: "Freelance Traveller" <freetrav@hotmail.com>
Subject: Fwd: Megatraveller ship design

Vincent Gioscia <vinsgt@vgernet.net> wrote to Freelance Traveller:

>Is a progaram available for generation of starship using the
>megatraveller rules?  I can't seem to find one.  Or is a coach or step by 
>step example available anywhere?

Can anyone help this gentleman?

- --
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm
freetrav@hotmail.com



_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:07:01 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Phantom Menace (No Spoilers)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 5:16 PM
Subject: Phantom Menace (No Spoilers)


>Imagine my surprise when I discovered The Phantom Menace Running on my TV
>last night! I'll make a few comments, but won't give away oany of the
>plot...


Lucky guy. I had to pay $7.50 to see it.

>First of all, it had nothing to do with Star Wars, and didn't even seem to
>be especially futuristic. It all took place on this desert planet, and
>everything seemed to revolve around a cantina called "Rick's Cafe
>Americaine." The leads were played by Humphrey Bogart and Claude Rains, and
>Ingrid Bergman was the love interest.


Yes. That pretty much sums it up.

>Frankly, I was disappointed. No decent special effects, the costumes were
>nothing like the previous SW movies, and the whole thing was done in black
>and white.


Lucas obviously was going for more of a "classic film" feel with this one.
Did you know that Ronald Reagan was originally supposed to play Rick in The
Phantom Menace?


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
Looking for other Traveller players in your area?
Looking to run a PBEM game? Check out:
http://www.pil.net/~semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 07:41:22 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

> One small planet, particularly noted for its fighters (because
> its a frontier world with severe geography) provides the
> guard who uphold not only their own honour but that of their
> entire planet.

Can you say "Sardukar"?  How about "Fremen"?
Very good examples of this from Classic Literature :)
TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -
>I believe that all of the above methods have been used by countries
>here on Earth. The main problem of using combat veterans is that:
> (a) it weakens the units they are drawn from,
> (b) they might not be the most suitable for the ceremonial
>     standing around that is required,
> (c) you end up with all your best troops in a unit that is
>     too valuable/high profile to use in combat.
>
>Phil Kitching
>--
>  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
>  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
> "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 06:12:55 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Phantom Menace (No Spoilers)

Brannon W. Boren wrote:

> On Wed, 19 May 1999, Loren Wiseman wrote:
>
> > First of all, it had nothing to do with Star Wars, and didn't even seem to
> > be especially futuristic. It all took place on this desert planet, and
> > everything seemed to revolve around a cantina called "Rick's Cafe
> > Americaine." The leads were played by Humphrey Bogart and Claude Rains, and
> > Ingrid Bergman was the love interest.
>
> I don't think you'll find the one playing in theaters to be superior in
> any way at all to the version you describe.  ;)

No, Not really. Good movie, High end grade B.

- --
Evyn...
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 06:15:13 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: One StarWars request: NO SPOILERS, no info, no nothing!

Volker Greimann wrote:

> Please,
> if possible, do not mention ANY part of the plot, CGI, characters, etc. of
> the new Star Wars movie on this list, without including a 45 line spoiler
> space.
>
> I want to see that movie unspoilt, fresh, new, without any information and
> dont want to have to stop reading the TML to do so.
>
> An yes, it does s*ck knowing that Ill have to wait *at least* till August,
> 19th
> to see it over here!
>
> So please, be kind to a poor European!






































Why?

- --
Evyn...
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:18:18 -0500
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Star Wars vs. Titanic

Ah, gotta disagree - Portman in anything is far nicer on the eyes than
Winslet in nothing...

(Hmmm... meybe we can distract the V war with a silly war on this!)


William

At 12:07 AM 5/20/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Reasons why Star Wars is better than Titanic

Excuse me?

Kate Winslet naked.  Nuff said.
- - -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry


- -- 
Live without fear; your Creator loves you       
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good	    
road and may God's blessing be with you always. 
St. Claire

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:20:42 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Light Sabers in MT

> From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
> Subject: Light Sabers (no star wars spoilers)
> 
> With all the excitement of Star Wars, I know my players are going to be
> wanting Light Sabers... is their any scientific way these could be possible?
> Even if by handwave? Something believable... I know it can be easy to except
> a little fantasy... but if their was a way to do and have it work in the
> regular background...
> 
> I was thinking of Marines that had light saber tradition rather than
> cutlass. ...or even a close combat weapon for troops in battle dress. I was
> considering (MT stats) of having a Dmg of 3 and Pen of 20 (Like a TL laser
> rifle)
> 
> What about ancient artifiacts? Certainly the ancients could have devised
> light sabers... I guess all it would really take is high power cells that
> fit in the size of a flashlight. ...of course, this opens up a whole nother
> can of worms with "blasters" and other high energy weapons. ...but a find at
> an ancients site would eliminate their being common place.

IMTU, the Darrians once held a monastic order of Zen-like 
quasi-psionic martial artists, simply called "Artists" in the 
current parlance.  Kind of a cross between the Jedi Knights and the 
Siblings of the Shroud (from Steve Perry's Matador series), these 
Darrian Artists held much the same role in society as the Jedi do in 
the Star Wars milieu.  After the "Maghiz" (sp?), much of the 
technology to build "plasma sabers" was lost, except to a small 
handful of masters who had limited access to the process of building 
the sabers.  These secrets have been passed down from generation to 
generation, and only a few surviving Artists remain.  Most Artists 
follow the Quest of Enlightment, while their enemies, a distant 
branch of Artists known collectively as the Hand, follow the Path of 
Darkness.  (I never got around to coming up with better sounding 
Darrian names for them.  My apologies.)

Their "plasma sabers" were based on the premise from the Darrian CT 
Alien Module that depicted a TL 16ish art form called plasma 
sculptures.  Plasma sculptures use gravitic fields to control the 
flow of plasma to arrive at some very beautiful and potentially 
deadly artforms.  Used in a military capacity, a small hand-held 
generator was designed to produce a sword-like field of plasma, which 
was rather devastating in its effectiveness.  (Thankfully, they are 
not mass-produced.)

Some say that the Order of the Artists may be making a return to 
Darrian culture, but not with the recognition that they once had.  
Only time will tell.

As for game system stats (weapon stats, chargen notes, etc), I have 
them buried somewhere at home.  If anyone's interested, I'll attempt 
to find them and present them.  They are, however, in MT format, and 
I may have to convert them.  I can do the chargen, but I don't use 
the T4 combat system, and so don't know how to convert the sabers 
over.  Any thoughts on that would be cool to see.

Thanks,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 07:38:56 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

>I didn't see Star Wars until I was in my 20's, and was not surprised that
>what I had read about it was true: It did more damage to science fiction
>than any other movie before or since. (Now Bladerunner, Outlands? (Sean 
>Connery, Jupiter), 2001, ... they were SF movies!)

I very much doubt that either Blade Runner or Outland would have been made
without the success of Star Wars to pave the way. Before Star Wars, there
was very little SF being made on film. 2001 was a rare exception, and that
was in 1968, 10 years before Star Wars. What Star Wars did was to show
the powers-that-be in the movie industry that one could make money in SF
films, which was thought to be too small of a niche market beforehand.

Incidentally, it was the success of Star Wars which also made Paramount
decide to turn Star Trek into what became a series of big-screen films
rather than go ahead with a second tv series with the original cast...


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 07:48:09 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

><< ObTrav:  How many Traveller referees out there have players who know how
> to interrogate captured NPCs?  Not many, I'd bet.... >>
>
>I was always taught that a field phone and some commo wire will do wonders,
>just don't get caught.  Of course players always seem to like to shoot
>people to make someone else talk.  In a Real World(tm) situation a friend
>turned over two prisoners for interogation to the intel officer for the
>unit he was attached to as an advisor only to see him shoot the older one
>of the pair to encourage the other.  The younger prisoner was then willing
>to tell him everything including the fact that he had just shot the local
>force Bn CO.

In the first session of the GURPS Traveller campaign which I started
recently, 
the PCs had busted up a drug-manufacturing plant and had captured some of the 
people responsible, including a minor planetary official who required
hospitalization. The day after the capture, one of the PCs went to interrogate
said official... when the official remained uncooperative, the PC took out a 
small bag of iridescent white powder (looking very much like the finished
product of the drug processing plant) and threatened to spike the official's
IV with it. The official spilled his guts and told him everything... at which
point the PC started eating the poweder, which turned out to be just some
powdered candy...


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:47:21 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fun things to do with a field phone

G'day all,

On 20/5/99 Stephen said :

>What is the deal with the field phone and commo wire?

It's one of the fun tricks you can play on recruits.  Get them to hold down
the bit that the phone sits in (cradle ??) while spinning the handle on the
side to power the thing.  Ho ho ho.

ObTrav : One would imagine in an era of "wonder-drugs" and other neato
stuff, the idea of gaining info from someone by force may have fallen by
the wayside ?

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:52:37 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: Grounding a starship

Greetings all,

I know this thread is a week old, but what the hell !

On 14/5/99, David Smart sayeth :

>ObTrav: Although hi-TL ships usually don't have to worry about
>damage like this, there *are* critters on various planets which
>can do incredible damage once onboard. One of the old JTAS's
>has a creature feature (I'm a poet and didn't know it :) on
>an eel/worm which digests various light metals, including
>shipboard circuitry.

There are already critters like this in use in the mining industry.  Some
ores are extremely difficult to recover the desired mineral from (gold from
arsenopyrites spring to mind).  There has been a fair bit of work done with
various greeblies in an attempt to get them to eat and remove the gangue
minerals.  Such an organism could cause huge amounts of damage to a ship.
Te he he he ....

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:56:27 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Non-volatile memory and Voice Transcription

Greetings, All,

Pardon me, but I am combining several posts together for my response 
to this thread.  Sorry if it throws anyone off, but I'm trying to 
conserve bandwidth.

> From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
> Subject: Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL
> 
> Please don't take this as a personal attack, but which version of
> Traveller were you looking at ?

No offense taken.  For Computer/Robotics TL information, I am looking 
in the CT LBB Book 8:Robots, under the article entitled the Computer 
Brain; CT's Grand Census extended benchmark Technology profiles, 
divided into specific branches of technological concerns; and MT's 
Referee's Companion, in the Technology article.  In another post, I 
gave some specific page numbers, if you need them.

> The only mention in the CT TL tables in the computing column after
> the computer is invented is the model number of the computer, and
> that equates purely to processing power, speed and size.

That would be CT LBB2 or LBB3, right?  (Can't remember which one.  My 
bad.)  Under the extended tables of CT's Grand Census, the computer 
model numbers have been allocated to the "associated technologies" 
column, meaning that these are additional technological achievements 
commonly associated with a technology, but are not the benchmark 
technologies used to determine TL classification under those 
categories.  That was my viewpoint on my assumptions.  Based solely 
on the limited TL profiles granted very early on in CT, without 
looking at later LBBs and additional supplements, then model is the 
sole determinant of computing power.  Using that aspect only, you are 
entirely correct in assuming a current TL12 for computers.  However, 
I like the more evolved extended TL tables based on accomplishment of 
benchmark technology, which tends to put processing power as an 
associated technology, not as a determining factor in achieving TL 
classification.  A matter of preferences.  MTU only, YMMV.

> I don't see a Tech Level table in the MegaTraveller books...

See MT Referee's Companion for more details on technological 
advances.  It's under the Technology article.

> I don't have the TNE rules, so can't check that.

Neither do I, but if such info exists, it is most assuredly based on 
the CT material as set forth by Grand Census and, for matters of 
computers and robotics, Book 8: Robots.

> In T4, TL9 is _explicitly_ listed as 1990 - 2000, and somehow TL10 
> becomes "interstellar community" which sort of implies we should be
> implementing stardrive next decade <grin>

Such year ranges are given as guidelines only, and it explicitly 
states such in the text explaining the tech tables.

<sarcasm>

If we don't have stardrive technology in ten years, then I would
like to make a motion that we consider the dates listed on the tech
level table of CT, etc, to be guidelines the authors _wished_ we'd
be at by then, and ignore them as references for determining current
or advanced technology within our Traveller games.

</sarcasm>

Even canon supports the fact that they are guidelines, as the OTU has 
Earth gaining this technology in 2087AD, not 1990-2000, as Jump-1 (TL 
9) is explicitly listed under the tech tables.

Just an observation.

> Actually, we have non-volatile memory, and we've had it for years,
> at least since the early eighties when I first started programming
> devices that had it. It's in general use all over the world in
> comsumer appliances, cars,. etc. any application that truly requires
> it. It's known as EEPROM or Electronically Erasable Programmable
> Read Only Memory, if my acronym memory is correct
> 
> True, because of it's cost it is usually used for the purpose the
> name describes, but physically it is non-volatole memory amd _could_
> be used for main ram on a slower processor if you have the money to
> throw at it . I believe the NASA laptop the GRiD Compass had a
> section of RAM mapped to a form of EEPROM.

Point taken on the non-volatile memory.  Obviously, the technology 
exist, but I don't see it as commonplace.  However, if you believe 
that it is sufficient to qualify for the TL 9 benchmark, as described 
(material quoted in a previous post), then that's cool.  We're at TL 
9, with novelty technology at TL 10, possibly higher, based on your 
assessment of the equipment available at TL 10, 11 and 12.

> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)
> 
> Jason Kemp wrote:
> > 
> > So I still feel we're at Computer/Robotics TL8, with a big step towards TL
> > 10 going on.  Once the non-volatile memory situation exists, we have the
> > remaining benchmarks for TL 9, and once voice transcription becomes
> > commonplace, we'll be at TL 10.
> 
> Just to be a bit contrarian, here...while there are software solutions,
> notably Dragon systems' stuff, that does _primitive_ voice
> transcription...it is limited, and needs a prolonged training period.

<Rest of Bruce's excellent example of TL10 Voice recognition snipped>

Exactly my point.  The technology is in its infancy, but it is there. 
 Once it becomes capable of our perceptions of TL10 Voice Recognition 
and once it becomes commonplace, as your example described, then we 
will have made that transitional benchmark regarding TL10 advancement 
under the Computer/Robotics technology.  We are still a long way from 
it, but not that far away, all things considered.  :)

Thanks for the entertaining discussions, everyone.  This has been 
very cool.

In Service,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:06:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: Re: Light Sabers (no star wars spoilers)

> With all the excitement of Star Wars, I know my players are going to be
> wanting Light Sabers... is their any scientific way these could be possible?
> Even if by handwave? Something believable... I know it can be easy to except
> a little fantasy... but if their was a way to do and have it work in the
> regular background...
> 
I had once upon a time worked a light saber into the game.  I used a slightly
modified version of the "SnapShot" and added blasters and light sabers.  

The biggest problem is that they go out of scope from Traveller's Sci-Fi 
background to more of a "Space Opera/Science Fantasy" setting.  The weapons
really didn't fit in.  I'm in Texas now and my books are at home in NC.
If I can find my "Chart", I will try to upload the data.  I built a chart 
mixing in weapon and shield adjustments to form a simple look up table.
It was something like: (I'm making this up, just showing you the layout)

Weapon Damage  No Armor       Cloth        Battle Dress
               C  S  M  L     C  S  M  L   C  S  M  L
9mm    2D      3  5  9  11    5  9  11 15  9  13 18 21

The CSML is the range (Close, Short, Medium, Long) and the number is what you have
to roll on 2d6 + mods to score the Damage in data.  Its been several years since
I have even looked at the stuff.

Any way, back to your question, what might be more practice is to introduce a 
mono-filimant or vibro-blade.

A scientific way to build one is to have a mono-filimant wire attached to a spool
and a mirror.  When you turn the light saber on, the energy pushes the mirror out
to the length of the mono-filimant wire.  The mirror and one built into the handle
act as a focusing reflector to concentrate the beam.

However it would be an energy sword.  A light saber in the hands of a jedi does
a lot more than hack through things.  I don't want to spoil the movie for any one,
but the light saber is a most interesting tool.  These things are a lot harder
to build into Traveller.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:18:33 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

- -----Original Message-----
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint


>I very much doubt that either Blade Runner or Outland would have been made
>without the success of Star Wars to pave the way. Before Star Wars, there
>was very little SF being made on film. 2001 was a rare exception, and that
>was in 1968, 10 years before Star Wars. What Star Wars did was to show
>the powers-that-be in the movie industry that one could make money in SF
>films, which was thought to be too small of a niche market beforehand.


There were plenty of sci-fi films before Star Wars came along. You can take
a peek at the internet movie database if you don't believe me
 http://www.imdb.com ). Much of the sci-fi films of the era (between the
late 60s and the late 70s) dealt with apocalyptic themes, either what might
happen after we blew ourselves up, or how we would get around to blowing
ourselves up... some films were about what might happen if we didn't blow
ourselves up but what might happen if we continued to become dehumanized.
That genre was beginning to dry up by the time that Star Wars was made.
Historically, a good number of sci-fi films either carried a message or
conveyed some sort of social commentary.

In one fell swoop Lucas proved that a sci-fi movie could be brainless (and I
mean that in a nice way) and lots of rip-roaring fun. Although I've never
heard Lucas's own comment on the subject, I don't think it's an accident
that the introductory text to Star Wars starts with "A long time ago, in a
galaxy far, far away..."  It was futuristic, but it wasn't the future.

The good guys were really good[1] and the bad guys were really evil, unlike
alot of the movies from that era.

The popularity of Star Wars is a mixed blessing for sci-fi (and movies in
general). While it paved the way for films like Blade Runner and a host of
others, it also paved the way for stuff like Independence Day and
Armageddon. Whiz bang special effects could be substituted for story, plot
and character development...

Not that Saturday Afternoon Matinee films are a bad thing. Sometimes it's
fun to leave your brain at the door and watch lots of explosions and
gorgeous effects.

[1] Note: Despite the supposedly egalitarian society of the rebellion all
sentients are not created equal. Everybody but Chewbacca gets a medal for
their work against the empire at the end of Star Wars. Maybe the good guys
aren't really as nice as we think they are.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:22:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: ADMIN: Movie Stuff and Off Topic Posts

All of us here are sci-fi fans.  No doubt, most of us have already 
scene the movie or will see it by the weekend.  Star Wars may have
been the catylist that pulled us into the genre to begin with.

The Traveller Mailing List seems like a natural gathering point
for this discussion, however its not.  Its about talking about
Traveller.

Considering that some of us may not get to see the movie for a
while, and the fact that it is off topic, I would like to encourage
restraint from postings that do not directly relate to Traveller.
For instance, compairing Coruscant to Capital/Core would probably
be an ok topic.  Discussing Darth Maul and his role is not ok.

Thanks for your help!
Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 07:24:57 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Star Wars vs. Titanic

How bout Leia in that golden bikini...

> At 12:07 AM 5/20/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >>>Reasons why Star Wars is better than Titanic
> 
> Excuse me?
> 
> Kate Winslet naked.  Nuff said.
> -- 
> 
> Doug Berry
> dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:21:51 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Macromolecules

With the talk of nanotechnology, I got to thinking about going in the other
direction, bigger molecules.  Theoretically, would it be possible to do any
or all of the below:

1.  Create a single molecule that is visible to the naked eye

2.  Create said molecule so that its physical shape would be useable in
some facet of industrial society, ie. a hull plate that would use
adheasives or fasteners to secure it?

3.  What would the upper limit on size be?  Could a complete vehicle shell
be constructed out of one molecule with the aid of nanotech?

Comments?

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:31:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: ADMIN:  List Changes a commin'

On Wednesday, May 26, we will be moving the lists and the ftp Archive
at MPG-Net to new servers in the North Carolina office.  Basically,
we are going to turn off recept of new messages around 9AM EDT, allow
any in progress messages to finish.  Then we will tarball up everything
and move it to a much faster, modern and manageable system in NC.

When the data is there, we will turn it back on, but considering the
size of the FTP archive, it may take most of the day to move.

We will say good bye to a nearly 8 year old DecStation 5000 
that is on its last legs, and saying help to a Pentium II
350 that has a lot more disk space!!!

The posting and admin addresses wont change.  Other than some
downtime, there shouldn't be any noticable differences.

Rob

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #650
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 20 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 651



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: 3I raising military forces
Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)
"First In" hits Dallas, TX
Racism in Traveller (was r: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Phantom Menace
Re: Macromolecules
First In review
shameless plug...   SETI@Home
IIS Emblems
Re: Macromolecules
Spetznaz
Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX
Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX
RE: ADMIN:  List Changes a commin'
Re: GT Type P (Corsair)?
RE: Light Sabers
Re: Computer Technology
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
Re: Fw: Star Wars vs. Titanic
Re: Virus debate
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:32:03 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

At 07:41 20/05/1999 -0500, "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net> wrote:
>> One small planet, particularly noted for its fighters (because
>> its a frontier world with severe geography) provides the
>> guard who uphold not only their own honour but that of their
>> entire planet.
>
>Can you say "Sardukar"?  How about "Fremen"?
>Very good examples of this from Classic Literature :)

I knew you* would make that assumption.

Actually, I was thinking of Switzerland.


*ie someone in the TML

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 07:42:36 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)

Warlord wrote:
> Well we do have that now (its been around since the early 60's. Its called..
> core ram (it uses iron ferrite cores on a matrix of lines) once the data is written it stays till changed. But it is really too bulky to use in todays PC's but can still be used on Mainframes.
> 

Well, no , not unless it was a very, VERY old mainframe. Modern mainframes use
conventional DRAM.

Amazingly enough I was going to post about that this morning. I'm reading
"Where Wizards Stay Up Late: The Origins of the Internet" and they were
describing very first routers, IMPs (Interface Message Processors) which were
Honeywell 516 minicomputers with 12k of core memory. The authors said that the
average personal computer, if it used the same core memory as theoriginal
IMP's, would cover a football field. They would configure and test them at BBN
in Massachusetts, turn them off, and ship them to whereever they were being
installed. They would then , basically plug them in and turn them on, and
they'd start up right where they were turned off in Mass. 

However, that got me to wondering. They're doing some amazing things with 'not
quite nano'technology these days, microscopic gears, electric cars half the
size of a rice grain, arrays of aimable mirrors, etc. I wonder whether ferrite
core memory would work on that scale. While this would _still_ be a lot more
powerhungry and larger than conventional ram, it would be a lot smaller than
any handmade core memory (and it was _all_ hand made...I don't think they ever
automated that process). It would make computers much larger. It would also be
a severe bitchkitty to make, at least the first few times. Fortunately it
doesn't depend on round conductors, so I would think it could be done using
current etching and deposition technology. But IANAEE, so I don't know.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:43:12 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: "First In" hits Dallas, TX

Hooray! Just picked up "First In" last night.
I hope to post a review this weekend for your
amusement and flaming.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:42:58 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Racism in Traveller (was r: A plea for cinema restraint)

Chris Seamans wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
[1] Note: Despite the supposedly egalitarian society of the rebellion all
sentients are not created equal. Everybody but Chewbacca gets a medal for
their work against the empire at the end of Star Wars. Maybe the good guys
aren't really as nice as we think they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This was "explained" in the Marvel Comic-book adaptation of the movie.
In a caption during the medals ceremony, it is mentioned that 
Chewbacca will get his medal later on - he was simply "too tall" for the
princess to put it on him herself. How's that for a cover-up? ;-)

ObTrav: Overt and covert racism in the Third Imperium. Is that Virushi
never going to be recognized as the most accomplished surgeon in
known space, just because he isn't human? I know there is that 
Major Race/Minor Race division going on, but is the 3I materialistic
enough to not care, at least on an individual basis, what species
someone is?

Will Naasirka make a Bwap it's CFO (or even CEO), because that
sophont is a once-per-generation genius at financial planning? Or will
this financial genius have to advance by being the "advisor" of an
appropriate human pawn, a racially-acceptable front man?

Adventure Seed: A Bwap has worked for a decade to make his boss
look good. Now his boss is CEO of a major corp, and has decided
it doesn't fit a corporate leader's image to have a "Newt" tagging along
everywhere. The Bwap advisor is cut out of decision-making, and
eventually (due to the hubris of the new CEO) released from the company
all together. Such rude behaviour is not to be tolerated, of course.
This Bwap decides to use his complete knowledge of the corp's
operations to both humiliate the CEO and make himself (and his
new friends, the PC's) either very rich or very dead.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:56:20 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Phantom Menace

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 99-05-19 11:56:41 EDT, you write:
>
> << >If you want to see the movie with NO prior exposure, then treat this
> message
>  >as a Spoiler. If you've even seen the theater trailers, I'm not giving
>  >anything away...
>  >
>  >-10
>  >-9
>  >-8
>  >-7
>  >-6
>  >-5
>  >-4
>  >-3
>  >-2
>  >-1
>  >0
>  >
>  >I _almost_ want to put Light Sabers in my Traveller game after seeing this.
>  >Almost. The trailers do not come close to portraying the intensity of the
>  >actual duels...
>  >
>  >The reviewers are obviously not xenobiologist-wannabees. Jar-Jar is not
>  >nearly as annoying as they all seem to think.
>
>  Oh yes he is.  Try seeing the movie if you are hearing impaired.  I
>  couldn't understand a single word that thing said, as all of his dialogue
>  was right in a range that I'm blanked on.  He came across as an annoying
>  whine.  Add in the constant level of backround noise and loud f/x, and I'm
>  lucky I read a synopsis before going in.

I am not hearing impaired and I found it hard to hear the dialogue over the
background noise.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:03:49 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Macromolecules

At 10:21 AM 5/20/99 -0400, you wrote:
>3.  What would the upper limit on size be?  Could a complete vehicle shell
>be constructed out of one molecule with the aid of nanotech?

Think General Products hulls from Niven.

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:08:44 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: First In review

My First In arrived last night. I'd give it an A+. I loved the detailed 
description of the different branches of the service...it went beyond Book 
6. The two adventures at the end of the book were great too..as well as the 
adventures seeds. Plus the new 3,000 ton crusier was welcome addition to the 
scout fleet..since I'm running a scout campaign I couldn't wait! :)


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:02:21 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: shameless plug...   SETI@Home

From the CNET shareware dispatch.

CLOSE ENCOUNTERS

The search for extraterrestrial life is not an easy task. In order to
detect the weakest signals that may lie within data collected by radio
telescopes, an incredible amount of computing power is required. Instead
of contracting a super-computer for the job, SETI@home (the Search for
Extraterrestrial Intelligence at Home) has created a screensaver that
will harness the power of thousands of Internet-connected computers in
its quest for alien intelligence. The project wants to borrow some of
your PC's processing cycles; using the Internet, the screensaver will
request a chunk of data gathered from the Arecibo telescope in Puerto
Rico, analyze it, and report the results back to SETI. The analysis takes
place only when your system is idle, so the program never impacts your
work or play. The software keeps track of where each piece of work is
done, so if your PC is involved in the detection, you can be listed as a
co-discoverer.

FACT FILE:
Program name:   SETI@home
Version:        1.0
Size:           700K
Developed by:   SETI@home
License:        freeware
Requirements:   Windows 95/98/NT

We are not alone:

http://dispatch.shareware.com/cgi-bin/flo?x=dgmYKEEwouug

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:19:48 -0400
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: IIS Emblems

Ok, I picked up First In yesterday and am now reading it.  How long before
somebody makes up these emblems in gif or jpg?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:24:28 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Macromolecules

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
> 
> With the talk of nanotechnology, I got to thinking about going in the other
> direction, bigger molecules.  Theoretically, would it be possible to do any
> or all of the below:
> 
> 1.  Create a single molecule that is visible to the naked eye

Yes...they're called diamonds. Also synthetic rubies, sapphires, etc. Nylon
monofilament is a monomolecular structure.

> 2.  Create said molecule so that its physical shape would be useable in
> some facet of industrial society, ie. a hull plate that would use
> adheasives or fasteners to secure it?

Yes, they're using synthetic gems in all sorts of industrial applications.
Nylon monofilament is used in a host of applications.

> 3.  What would the upper limit on size be?  Could a complete vehicle shell
> be constructed out of one molecule with the aid of nanotech?

Actually, I know where you're leading, to Niven's General Products Monohulls.

The problem is, even if you did make a gigantic monomolecular polymer mass, it
would not be much stronger, if at all, than conventional polymers of the same
mass. Molecular bonds can be strong on a _molecular_ scale, but on a macro
scale they're still pretty weak.

Nylon monofilament _is_ strong, but on a macro scale it's relatively easy to break.

In many cases Van Der Waals forces are stronger. If you tear a piece of paper 
or break a monofilament fishing line you're breaking molecular bonds, mostly
covalent bonds, as you tear the fiber(s). 

If you poke through a piece of polyethylene film, you're breaking primarily
Van Der Waals forces (if I remember my organic chemistry) as such polymer
films are exssentially, spaghetti-like aggregates of long molecular chains
which get the majority of their strength from Van Der Waals attraction of the
uncharged polymer strands. You're poushing your way through the mass of
strands whihc slowly give way to your finger. If you poke through it with a
sharp objct you go through it far more easily.

Niven Sinclair monofilament, and GP Monohulls have their bonds artificially
strengthened, somehow, and so are equivalent to bonded superdense. Yes you
_can_ make starship hulls from bonded superdense all in one piece.  The
problem then arises: what do you do when you have to access something from the
outside? Do you dissolve the entire hul? Cut holes in it and and re-weld them
somehow, Or do you build the thing out of separate fastened sections so you
can get at stuff 60 years down the line when you have to replace the Jump Drive.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:25:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Spetznaz

> <<      Find a good book on the Spetsnaz for lessons in field questioning.
>  Truely frightening stuff. >>

(while questioning a captured Soviet commando)
"SPETZNAZ?! Sounds like a bathroom cleanser!"
  --'Adventure Joe' Hunter, DIAMOND OF DOOM

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:48:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX

> Hooray! Just picked up "First In" last night.
> I hope to post a review this weekend for your
> amusement and flaming.

Are there any good gaming stores in the Dallas Area.
I'm stuck in Grapevine for a few more days and some
good reading would be nice.

(Directions from Grapevine would be nice as well)

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:54:27 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX

At 11:48 AM 5/20/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> Hooray! Just picked up "First In" last night.
>> I hope to post a review this weekend for your
>> amusement and flaming.
>
>Are there any good gaming stores in the Dallas Area.
>I'm stuck in Grapevine for a few more days and some
>good reading would be nice.

You guys do know that you can just mail-order the book directly from SJG,
right?

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:56:44 -0500
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: ADMIN:  List Changes a commin'

On Thursday, 20 May 1999 09:31, Rob Miracle [SMTP:rwm@mpgn.com] wrote:
> We will say good bye to a nearly 8 year old DecStation 5000 
> that is on its last legs, and saying help to a Pentium II

Saying 'help'?

Y'know - my dec alphas need much less care than my intel boxes also. :-)

 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   |   vargr1@jcn1.com
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | dmoody@bridge.com
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:14:36 -0400
From: John Macek <macek@erols.com>
Subject: Re: GT Type P (Corsair)?

> From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
> Subject: GT Type P (Corsair)?

Here's one I put together when I first bought GT.  It's really a
frontier prospecting vessel that might easily fall into the hands of
P-----s.  The numbers should be okay, but I must warn you that I'm not a
gearhead.


Enerison Spaceworks "Fred C. Dobbs" Class Heavy Prospector

			Modules	Volume	Area	Mass	Cost(MCr)	Spaces	Crew
400 Ton USL Hull		200,000	25,000	25	1.25		400
Turrets (4)			3,200	3.3	0.1624			4	4
TL10 Lasers (9)					108	9.27
Sandcasters (3)					15	0.74 
Armor DR 160					200	2.4
Sealed							0.282
Basic Bridge		1			8.6	4.0		2.5	5
Engineering		1			4.1	0.32		1	1
J Drive 2		12			48	37.2		12		
Jump Tank		80			104	12.8		80
M Drive			59			193.8	9.12		59
Low Berths (4)		1			2	0.22		0.5
Staterooms (9)		9			24	0.12		36
"Rockdock" (100t)	200			1	0.005		200
Utility			1			11.5	0.3		1
Lab (Geology)		1			10	1		2	2
Fuel Processor		2			2.2	1.7		2
						-----	------		------	-----
						760.5	80.8894		0	12

Enerison Spaceworks has been manufacturing vessels for slightly over one
hundred years.  Their most 
famous design is the "Fred C. Dobbs" class, a typical example of a large
belt prospector.  Having 
been in service for decades, the "Dobbs" class has a favorable
reputation among the belter 
community.  Standard onboard facilities include a geology lab used to
examine ores and a fuel 
processor capable of refining enough fuel for a jump 1 in 2.5 hours. 
But the most noted feature of 
the "Dobbs" is its large spacedock/cargo bay, affectionately termed the
rockdock.   With its doors 
opened to space, and with skillful and careful maneuvering on the part
of both pilot inside the ship 
and vacc suited belters outside, the rockdock is quite capable of
swallowing whole asteroids. 



Hope it works for you, at least until GT Starships comes out.

John
ps - if the above column justification gets scrambled, I'd be more than
happy to email you the original
document.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:13:43 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Light Sabers

Shawn Campbell writes:
<snipped>
"With all the excitement of Star Wars, I know my players are 
going to be wanting Light Sabers... is their any scientific 
way these could be possible? Even if by handwave? Something 
believable... I know it can be easy to except a little 
fantasy... but if their was a way to do and have it work in the
regular background..."

	IMTU there are plasma torches that have short 'blades'
	of plasma that are magnetically confined. Naturally, 
	metal disrupts the magnetic confinement and releases
	some of the plasma. These tools tend to be heavy and 
	unsuitable as weapons, but even a lightweight version 
	with a long 'blade' would not allow parries.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:47:39 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

Frank G. Pitt wrote:

>>Analogue computers are not Turing devices -
>>
>>Quantum devices - also not Turing machines -
>
>Both of these _are_ Turing machines, they are just different implementations
>of the same concept
>The original layman's description of a Turing machine,  the one talking
>about paper tapes and such, describes an analogue device.
>
>There's a reason the Turing universal machine is called that, it's because
>_any_ machine, can be desribed by it, irrespective of how it is constructed.

Surely, a Turing Machine can describe an analogue computer; but an
analogue computer need not be able to describe a Turing Machine.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:20:59 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

Chris Seamans wrote:
> 

> In one fell swoop Lucas proved that a sci-fi movie could be brainless (and I
> mean that in a nice way) and lots of rip-roaring fun. Although I've never
> heard Lucas's own comment on the subject, I don't think it's an accident
> that the introductory text to Star Wars starts with "A long time ago, in a
> galaxy far, far away..."  It was futuristic, but it wasn't the future.

Lucas has repeatedly stated that the main inspiration for Star Wars were
the old 'Saturday Matinee' adventure movies and serials. As such, Star
Wars has got a lot more in common with "Captain Blood" and "Robin Hood"
(the Errol Flynn version) than it does "2001", "Silent Running" or
"Planet of the Apes", 'social message' films each and every one.

Star Wars is better pigeonholed as Science Fantasy, but stating that it
was the 'death' of Science Fiction films is a load of hogwash. It didn't
do that any more than Apocalypse Now killed the heroic War Movie genre,
even though popular film _still_ resonates mightily with the tone and
imagery that Apocalypse set, much as Star Wars did for SF film. 

If I _ever_ see another ripoff opening shot of sillohuetted helicopters
moving in slow motion, moody music not quite drowning out the 'whop'
'whop' 'whop' of the blades, I'll scream,even though, in its way that is
as powerful an establishing shot as the entrance of the Imperial Cruiser
is to Star Wars. Witness the number of people ripping it off.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 18:21:10 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Star Wars vs. Titanic

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>At 12:07 AM 5/20/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>>>Reasons why Star Wars is better than Titanic
>Excuse me?
>Kate Winslet naked.  Nuff said.

She was better in BBCTV's 'Jude' and it had a depressing ending ;-)

As in Hardy and 'the Obscure'.

Star Wars vs Titanic? Maybe
Empire Strikes Back vs Titanic, ESB wins.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:34:59 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Virus debate

> could virus have started with the cymbeline chips and mutated/changed into
> something else at the imperial research station? This might explain the

That's *precisely* what happened.  Survival Margin (pgs 69-71 or thereabouts).

> raid/orbital bombardment of cymbeline in Survival margin. SOMEBODY thought

Mmm... SM is pretty clear Lucan did that, just because he didn't want anyone 
trying to do any parallel r&d.

> the chips were virus, or they were just closing loose ends (I also note that
> this was before the release of virus into the fleets in 1130...hmm). Perhaps
> virus is an artificial construct created from the cymbeline chips. I could

Yeah, kinda.  The Cymbeline chips are the ancestors of Virus.

> see the virus' "retaliating" against the softlives who played Dr. Mengele
> with the cymbaline chips...

Yup, that's why there's an "evangelical doomslayer" strain that goes coreward 
along the Vampire Highway to go "kill Lucan."


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:34:55 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

> >How do you KNOW this will apply?  This ignores even some obsuricities and
> >theory from *today* much less a couple thousand years in teh future.  The
> 
> No, it does not.  Please quote your source, recongised technical journals
> only please.

Of course, I don't have any journals from the future... but you might want to 
check since u seem to have access.  ;-)  Others have already brought up the 
concepts I had in mind...  Bout 10-15 digests ago IIRC...

> >human brain definately doesn't appear to follow that hard cut rule, and
> 
> Wrong again.  Nerves are two state devices acording to current research.

"Current research" is hardly without debate.

> >Even playing along w/ you, Virus is "inside" the computer.  Inside it's
> >world, it can manipulate the flags as easily as you can scratch your ass.  
At
> 
> Not as sensor data it can not.  Until it is up and running as an executeable
> it's in limbo like a person in a low birth.  Data does nothing it is worked
> upon.

Sensor data?  What are you talking about?  It has physically come along (in 
whatever state it's in... as EM energy) by commo, to either the transponder 
or the tight beam commo system, thence into the main computer (both of which 
have a connection).  It's not in a data format.  Excepting "eggs."

> >Again, trapped in TL-8.  There is NO Virus "instruction."  Virus *lives*
> >inside the system.  As a power surge, free-floating program, or whatever.
> >Those same little electrical pulses that make you the... sophont... known 
as
> >Charles Prevatte, maybe.
> >You can have no argument against synaptics since you don't know how they 
> > work (and are a ready made Bill Gates if you do...).
> >
> 
> Of course I do.  The concept is at least a decade old.  Hardware and
> software implementations have been in use atleast that long.  Where have you
> been?  Don't you keep up?  Oh, maybe the real name is the problem.  They are
> called neural nets now.

All right!  Well when u hit the 10 billion mark, don't forget to contribute 
to Traveller. ;-)
Put "traveller" in front of "synaptics."

> >> Second, inorder for the virsus to become executable it would have to be
> >> flaged as an execuable.  Any security system will moniter the executables
> >> list for that very reason.  As long as the virus is data it is in 
supended
> >> animation and can take no action.
> >
> >Virus can switch the flags.  Like waving your hand.  It can also burn it's
> >own circutry and disconnect your security system (probably taking over the
> >ICE, ala HIV and T-cells) or cut routes around the security system, 
assuming
> >they'd have any effect to begin with.
> >
> 
> And exactly what is YOUR technical reasoning behind this?  How did it go
> from senor data 'like a picture' to a program that has OS level systems

I've never called it sensor data "like a picture."  I don't recognise anyone 
having said anything like that, actually, though I've went through about 30 
digests in a maybe 2 or 3 hours.

> resorces?  And do not say because it's alive.  That is to much like saying
> it's magic.  You are alive, that does not give you absolute control over the
> entire earth and all that tread upon it which is what you are saying the
> virus has in it's world.

No.  Virus is consistent with the internal rules that have been attributed to 
it.  Not whether it makes to TL-8 computer science.

> >> Third, programs today are being assembled by smart compilers that 
optomise
> >> the code for the system they were design to run on.  These compilers have
> >> millions of hours of experience in compiling to these systems.  I find it
> >> hard to believe that the virus with little or no experience with the 
systems
> >> being attacked can match purpose built optomising compilers.
> >
> >"Today."  Course, playing along w/ you, Survival Margin (pg 75) says that 
the
> 
> And you have yet to PROVE that the rules of today will NOT apply.  You
> insist my real world model is wrong and expect me to take your word only for
> it yet you refuse to even contempate that todays' model might hold up or
> that we are much higher that TL8 in computer technology.

Since you're the one attempting to debunk it, you have to prove that they 
will.  Of course, it's impossible either way.  I just happen to think the cs 
in your Traveller game is boring.   We're not much higher than TL-9 (canon 
for optical data storage) or maybe 10 in computer tech (as a novelty maybe) 
today.  That we're TL-12 or higher is ludicrous given the attributes (though 
not the corny 70s capabilities from CT) ascribed to Traveller starship 
computers (especially as opposed to personal hand/wristcomps of which there 
has has been little).

> >Virus was already extensively trained/designed to take over every standard
> >Imperial compute configuration (which had been standardized in an "Imperial
> >Data Package which covered everything from graphite pencils to radial tires
> >to starship software").  For non Imperial computers, once inside a 
peripheral
> 
> Agreed. I already said that a concideravle level of standardization was
> required or the virus would have been harmless.

Given the homogenous state of not just Imperial space, but practically 
everyone except the Vargr and Aslan (though much more than Vargr, due to 
clans, etc), it's equally likely the others are too.  Those are precisely the 
areas that Virus was slower, precisely due to those reasons.

> >systme, Virus would watch how they worked.  It would do *nothing* after
> >carving out it's "hidey hole" except watch how the OS worked and learn how 
to
> >manipulate it.
> >
> 
> That's putting the cart before the horse.  It would have to have a very good
> knowledge of the OS to make that hidey hole.

It's physically altering the circuitry to make the hideyhole. Don't need to 
know anything about the OS.  It watches and learns after it's safe.  No 
(noticable) activity till it's ready to take control.  That's where it's 
relation to the Cymbeline predator plays in, though it is not an exact 
Cymbeline predator.

> >Remember, one of the core principle of Virus is for it to be able to burn
> >it's own circutry over existing circuity, based on the method of the
> >Cymbeline predator, just on a larger scale.  *Hardware* not software
> 
> And that in itself is not posible based on the discription in the adventure!
> The chips have to have DIRECT contact with the silicon it was to take over.

Virus is not the chip, though.  It's a distant descendant.  It doesn't need 
the chip body anymore.  It's capabilites operate on the similar manner, but 
not identically.  It's evolved more.  Could u buy that?  Or at least think 
bout it?

> >modification.  Once it's in the system, that's the first thing it does.
> >Shutting down and reformating, by whatever method the computers do that is
> >fine, but a Virus will come right out of it's hidey hole and reinfect.  
Alot
> >quicker than you can blink your eyes (though sometimes I imagine u do that
> >pretty slow).  : P
> >
> 
> That's where you're first operation is a total memory purge.  If a section
> can't be purged you physically remove it.

That's what the hidey hole is hardwired to prevent.

> >> That is strawman crap.  There will always be a delineation between data 
and
> >
> >To be a strawman, I would have to have put that up for you to knock it 
down,
> >which wasn't the case.  Stop using words because they look cool to you.  
;-)
> >I'll stop short of accusing u of plagarism.  ;-)
> >
> 
> It is a strawman concept because it is unsuportable and a diversion form the
> basic concepts.  If you prefer I call it something else.  I'll use the term

What you call a strawman is not a strawman.  A strawman is something put up 
to be knocked down.  Something to lure u in deeper.  U want to call apples 
oranges lemme know and i'll play.  Randomly changing the definition words can 
be fun.  Especially when you don't tell the other guy... ;-) 

> computer.  It is a curtain thing based on it's definition.  It has to be
> that thing or it is not a computer.  If we are discussing 'a not computer'
> you could be right.

Whatever works, slick.  :-)  As has been mentioned, an abacus fits the 
dictionary definition of computer. 

Computer (kem pyoot 'er) n.  a person or thing that computers; specif., a 
machine that performs rapid often complex calculations or compiles, 
correlates, and selects data: see also analog computer, digital computer, 
synaptic computer.

Ok.  The last one is my addition. ;-)

That's alot of room for Virus to fit in.

> >No crap.  But do you live "inside" a computer?  Nope (though I'm starting 
to
> >wonder. lol).  What does data and code "look" like on the "inside?"  If you
> >could directly manipulate it w/ your "will" or "hand" or whatever it would 
be
> >intuitive to you.  Too bad it's not.
> >
> 
> OK, you asked for it.  Prepare to have your logic destroyed.

Ooooo.... my logic is going to be "destroyed."  ;-) 

> as the virus can not change the fact that it is ONLY a very high tech.
> program that must be running for it to take any action.  Untill it is
> running it is like I would be in a low birth (if such existed.  I am

That's the fundamental problem w/ your understanding of Virus.  It is not a 
program.  The name "virus" is a misnomer.  It's a life form that lives in 
electronics like a fish lives in water.  The Cymbeline chip is it's greatly 
primitive and distant ancestor.

> inserting this because of your unpleasent habit of twisting any short cut a
> person takes in responding to you to try and boondoggle, humiliate, taunt,
> or generally belittle them into conceeding the point to you just so they can
> egnore all your future posts)

You're catching on.  ;-)  j/k.  

> >I haven't written any, though I've taken a CS class or 3, it does make 
"anty"
> 
> So now you are taking cheep shots at my typographical errors?  What's next
> spelling?

Nah.  Just yanking your chain.  I do typos and deliberate (and lazy) 
modifications like "u" for "you", etc all the time.  Course I type pretty 
fast (bout 90 wpm) and just don't care to run it through aohell's spell 
checker (slows things down on my dinosaur computer).

> >sense to me.  I'm not debating anything you're saying (though I could take
> >out some theories, but it seems others have beat me to it) about *todays*
> 
> Not so far, be my quest.  I design computers for a living.  I have dozens
> system designs under my belt.

Not w/ synaptics, you don't.  Nor with holographic crystal storage.  Nor 
with... etc, etc.   I respect what you do, but you're mistaking that things 
will never change or develop.  It's entirely possible you're right, but 
that's pretty durned boring for a far future rpg IMO.

> become the 'hidey hole' itself.  I've said this in my own theory of virus
> operation.  Are you reading all of this and the related threads or are you
> just skimming?  I am NOT anti-virus.  I am just trying to better define it.
> In fact if anything I think canon has the virus greatly underpowered.  It
> behaves very stupidly.

Well I have gone through a large volume of bandwidth in a relatively short 
period.  That latest email was almost entirely done before the thread had 
progressed (immediately upon receipt), but I make it a point to edit for 
outright hostility and my propensity to "boondoggle, humiliate, taunt, and 
belittle."  :-)

> >> >Transponder (which consists of two lobotimized cymbeline predators) 
chatter
> >> >(w/ direct access to commo and computers) was the primary vector of
> >> >transmission.  Virus is not a "program."  It's a life form that lives in
> >> >electronics.  The next vector was computer controlled tight beam commo
> >> >(accuracies measured in attoradians, doppler shift correction, encoding 
and
> >> >decoding, etc).
> >> >
> >>
> >> NOT RELAVENT.  If it is the 'chip lifeform' it must have physical contact
> >
> >It's surely "relavent" in that it isn't a "chip lifeform" either.  It's 
eons
> >above them evolutionary, as Lucan's scientists did in the lab (they had an
> 
> If so them why is it so stupid?  It's different I give you that.  More
> advanced, I dout it.

Cause it's crazy?  Cause it wasn't done when it was accidently released?  The 
thing you haven't been grasping is it's not just a Cymbeline predator.  It's 
beyond it.  The capabilities are based on, but not identical to.  Though, of 
course, I disagree on your particular identification of "stupid" qualities.

> >extraordinary mutation rate, according to Survival Margin).  It's an
> >electronic lifeform.  Get enough space in a signal (and/or series of 
signals)
> >hidden in the tremendous amounts of data required for tightbeam commo from
> >hundreds of thousands of km, and it's actually moving to the new system.  
No
> >"executable" to run.  It's actually "jumped" to the new system (actually
> >replicated, since the original personality has stayed in it's system).
> >
> 
> That stuff is data.  Gata does not control anything directly.  It would be
> as if you swallowed a glass vile of poison.  As long as the glass is intact
> you are safe.

It's an electronic life form.  Not data.  Read my original quote, coupled 
with bits from above.

> Every 3I ship except pirates, yes.

Heh.  U wanna go there?  ;-)

> >computer prison.  This was mentioned by Survival Margin too.  You have read
> 
> I own a copy of the book.  There is not mention of the nature of the
> security systems.  CRC is NEVER mentioned.

Ahem.  Briefly mentioned in Pg 78. 2nd column, 3rd paragraph.

> >the book, haven't you?  lol.  Or at least "When Empires Fall?"  The only
> >thing visible would've been power spikes as Virus was cutting new circutry.
> 
> Which would trip the overcurrent, and/or watchdog system on any reasonable
> designed system.

It would say 

> >Noone but Lucan's scientists would've known what it meant, though.  It's
> 
> In the first few months, true.  Also if the burn in power were from the

That's all it took.  It spread and spread and spread until practically 
everyone was infected, before the tech started to rebel.  If you got the news 
about the rebeling technology, you got the Virus (since the Xboat network got 
infected, too, as well as Dulinor and Lucan's fleets, and the couriers sent 
back to report, etc).

> real world.  A true secured system is all but unbeatable to hackers and
> viruses (in the real world).  The transponder makes ship systems NOT secure
> so this does not apply.

Tight beam commo.  

> >When you're reconfiguring the physical circutry, this is not a problem,
> >ignoring your TL-8 rut.  ;-)
> > 
> 
> True, but you still have not explained how the virus in the SEALED
> transponder gained physical direct access to the computers bare silicon
> which is required of the chips lifeforms as state in the canon that
> introduced them.

From the transponder through the direct and unimpeded access to the main 
computers.  Or from the tight beam commo system with same endpoint.

> >> And the FIB will load all it's programs from it's own ROM to start with 
and
> ><snip>
> >
> >It's the same.  They operate the same.  Part of Imperial standardization.
> >Besides, most ships w/ Fb comps don't have St comps (what's the point?  If
> >you're expecting EMP, your St's will be shut down...)
> >
> 
> And the burn in to the 'chips' would not work on the FIBs.  Different
> materials and no physical contact, only light pipes.

more like cable, isn't it?  Anyways there would still be the main boards, etc 
(or whatever the equivalent is).  Those aren't "light pipes."

> >> showed it's hand to early.  It stared killing ships with two weeks, IIRC.
> >
> >Two weeks?  Where you came up w/ that is beyond me.  LOL.  Not from 
Survival
> >Margin, though if you count malfuctions (misjumps) it could.  It didn't
> >"kill" ships ala Vampires till the Collapse (months afterwards), AFAIK.
>
> 
> Yes, survival margin.  Read the history of the first fleet infected.  Ships
> had to be abbandonded or disappear in jump within a few weeks.

That's different than turning into a Vampire.  They did not do that.  Your 
memory is faulty.  Plus, those two fleets were an exception because the Virus 
was purposely beamed straight into Dulinors main comp (and SM explicitly says 
he disregarded advise against data contamination) because he wanted to 
analyze the "weapons data" not realizing he had the actual weapon.

> >> >Um... that's exactly how it happened.  Reread Survival Margin, please. 
What
> >> >you describe matches exactly Survival Margin pg 74 and 75.  I don't know
> >> >what "cannon" you've been reading..
> >>
> >> I did, that is not how it is documented.  It jumped mainly through the 
comm
> >
> >It is too.  You want me to quote the whole thing?  Or is this another book
> >not "available" to you to participate in the discussion and you're faking 
the
> >funk?
>
> 
> I do not understand the above.  I have Vampire fleets for curtain and
> survival margin,  IIRC.  I'm trying to fill in the gaps.

I told you the pages and book.  I'll quote the whole thing if you need me to.

> As for detail YOU miss the part about 'physical contact' being required and
> the silicon is specified as the specific media.

Didn't miss it at all.  It can have physical contact, as we talk about in the 
"sealed black box" part above.

> By the way if you want my spelling to improve you should include the correct
> spelling when you quote my pour spelling.  I;m an engineer not an english
> major.  If you want to push in that area, I'll turn your text over to my SO.
> She has her masters in English.  You are a doofer compared to her.  She does
> the proof reading for me when I need to release something more formal than
> email on a hobbie mail server.

lol.  I'm just yanking your chain.  I certainly have typos now and then.  A 
"doofer?" ;-)

> By the way sorry for the random snips.  My mail editer has an momory limit
> for the length of one email.  I needed to make room for my responces.

It's ok by me.  


Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #651
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 20 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 652



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

"First In"
Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data)
RE: IISS Emblems
Re: IIS Emblems
Re: During the Collapse (was: A 12-Step Program for Virus fans)
Re: _Brilliant Lances_
Re: Shipping costs recap
Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX
Re: Phantom Menace
Star Wars --- update
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:43:16 EDT
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: "First In"

Greetings:

I'm guessing this is on the way. I got a UPS notification from SJG that an 
order was shipped, and this is my only outstanding item.

Oddly, though, I got a second UPS notification (different tracking number), 
so I'm guessing that they shipped me two copies by mistake, sigh. We'll see.

Looking forward to the book, the scout supplements were always among my 
favorites!

Fred Kiesche
(e-mail: Diespamer@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 12:56:11 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data)

Heheheheh, I went to high school with a guy who became a Ranger.  He was
in New York, in civvie clothes one day, when some poor fool tried to mug
him.  Needless to say, the mugger was left in a crumpled heap while he
called the cops.  Was a very polite fellow indeed.


Jim Clem
Helix:  I once heard about a prototype reactor that lost its plasma
containment.  It made
a huge bang and flash of light when it started up.
Florence:  Yes.  Its one of the few cases of an existing product becoming
vaporware!

On Tue, 18 May 1999 11:41:08 -0500 "Smart, David J (David)"
<dasmart@lucent.com> writes:
>
>Heheh. One guy I knew who went to a Jesuit school for Grades 6-12
>became a very polite SEAL.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:05:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: RE: IISS Emblems

> Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:19:48 -0400
> From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
> Subject: IIS Emblems
> 
> Ok, I picked up First In yesterday and am now reading it.  How long before
> somebody makes up these emblems in gif or jpg?

Can I safely assume that SJG used the emblems I designed for them?
I haven't heard a peep from Loren since I put them up on my web
server for him.

As for making them available in GIF or JPG, you only need to get Loren's
permission and I'll make the original images avaiable for download.

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:18:37 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: IIS Emblems

Clint Fishback posted:
>
>Ok, I picked up First In yesterday and am now reading it.  How long before
>somebody makes up these emblems in gif or jpg?

Oh...I'd say by tomorrow night. ;-)

What *I* want to see is an external view of the new 400-ton Courier.
The deckplans look rather wicked.

(Helloooo, Jeeesseeee!...please?please?please?  'whimper whimper')

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:26:17 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: During the Collapse (was: A 12-Step Program for Virus fans)

> exploded. It was chilling just to read it.
> 
> I haven't run any scenarios set during the main Virus incursion. You
<snip>

Derek Stanley, who's here on and the on TNE-RCES posted this once upon a 
time.  Though i haven't asked permission, i'm relatively sure Derek won't 
have a problem (and can flay me later if he does).

I ran an adventure once awhile after I read this.  Was hella fun, though also 
had large elements of tragedy.  


Gary
- ---


I've been doing a great deal of thinking about the effects of the
collapse and I think we're taking a great deal of things for granted.

********************************************************************

Imagine if you will.  You're living on the planet Nubnub near the core
of some Imperial noble's territory.  Now there's a war that's been going
on for nearly a decade, you've never really seen the war, well not much
just a few beat up ships and injured soldiers on the Vid's, pictures of
war but nothing local.  One morning you wake up on your own, damn alarm
didn't go off because there's a power outage.  Now this isn't out of the
ordinary so you're not terribly alarmed.  You pick up the phone, or
whatever the local equivilant is to tell your boss you're going to be
late and you notice that the phone acting up, this wierd sqealie noise.

So you hustle it to get to work, cold shower, water heater operates off
electric power.  Cold cereal, you close the fidge quickly, don't wan't
to lose any of that cold air.  You'd prefer hot oatmeal but the cookers
are all electic so you suffer in silence.  Rushing out to your grav-car
you notice that the local traffic net is down and there's only a
fraction of the traffic you'd expect to see on a monday morning.  Five
minutes later you show up at the office, no power again, what you
thought was just a local outage seems to have effected the whole city.
So you walk up the thirty floors to your office, there's no coffee, no
tea just cold water.  None of the computers work, due in large part to
the power outage so you and your friends sit around for most of the day
listening to a portable radio someone abandoned in the lunchroom decades
ago.  One of the girls had a spare set of battaries in her desk and
aparntly the radio station is running off a generator in their basement.

You start to hear stories, apparently the main powerplant for the city
went critical sometime during the night and destroyed most of the
underwater parts of the town.  Emergency vehicles are everywhere trying
to put out fires caused by drivers trying to log onto the traffic net
and having their cars go wild and apparently a huge chunk of the
Whiteside Arcology collapsed in the middle of the night when all three
sets of back up gravitic generators failed to come on line.  Things are
looking bad so you and the people from work decide to pool your
resources and spent the night at Dale's place because at least he has an
emergency generator.

On your way home the sky is thick with smoke, somethings really wrong
and you watch in horror as a public transit airfilm jumps it's tracks
and tears through four blocks of industrial complex and residential
housing.  At home you quickly throw all you're perishable's into a bag
for transport to Dale's house, working quickly you grab some clothes and
a heavy parka, winter's just around the corner and you never know how
cold it might get tonight.

Two hours later you show up at Dale's.  Three of the ten of the ten from
the office never show up.  The fires continue on through the night, you
watch in horror as the cities secondary power plant suddenly comes on
line.  Lights up half the city to a million candle power before going
critical and nuking the entire south side in a blinding flash of
supercritical plasma.

Four day's later you're begining to run low on food, the police had
instituted a dusk till dawn curfu in an attempt to control the rioters.
Dale suggests making a quick trip to your house to grab all your canned
food and the remainder of the hydrogen from your grav-car's fuel tank to
keep the generator running.  When you get home you discover that most of
your neighborhood has been systematically looted, a two day old corpse
lies in your living room and anything of value has been systematically
removed.  Fortunately they were just after material goods and not food
so you quickly clear out the cupboards and basement.  Dale for some
reason grabs all your knives, an old fashioned set of binoculars your
grandfather gave you before scooping all the medical supplies he can
find in your bathroom.  Though you ask him why, Dale just grunts and
tells you to grab the warmest clothes you can find.  Twenty minutes late
you finish loading up his truck when Edward and Delilah return from
scouting out your neighbors houses.  Dale looks happy with their prizes
and you all hop back into the truck for the return trip.

On the fifth day things have gone from bad to worse, the authorities
stopped trying to put out the fires when chuncks of the orbital A-Class
starport began falling out of orbit.  Though much of it burned up on
re-entry a large chunk of it fell on the mountians to the south carving
out a kilometer long scar in the planets surface and starting thousands
of fires.

It's now ten days since the power went out.  The sky is dark now, and
the smell of smoke is everywhere.  Pieces of the starport still streak
across the skies at regular intervals.  Dale shut off the generator
nearly a week ago and packed you all up into his truck with the remains
of your food and supplies.  The looters had showed up the day before
that and you'd killed ten of them before they finally fled, Dale decided
he'd had enough and it was time to leave.

It's been fifteen day's now the burned out wreckage of a thousand car
pile up chokes the Freeway in front of you.  That first body in your
house shocked you, you couldn't help but throw up, you've seen so many
bodies now they don't even phase you.  Sarah from accouting still
cringes but you're numb.  You have to abandon the truck and start
walking

Nearly a month has passed, you count yourself among the lucky, you're
still alive, finding food has become increasingly difficult and the
canned food you started with ran out over a week ago.  A pair of soldier
joined up with you last week their unit had been over run by a starving
mob.  They've got rifles and some extra ammunition, your handgun's
running preciously low.  The hill top you're standing on overlooks a
small town burned to the ground.  A dozen empty vehicles lay abandoned
on the side of the road.  To conserve his lighter Dale's been pulling
one of the lenses out of your binoculars and using it to light fires.
He's a pretty smart guy that Dale, you probably wouldn't have made it
this far without him, but winter's approaching and you still don't have
any shelter or long term supplies.  Dale says not to worry, but you
can't help it.

The first snow fell last night, you feel pretty sorry for anyone not in
door's like you and the rest of Dale's people.  Dale knew about this
small town nestled in a remote valley near the northern edge of the
mountians, he had friends there, family you might say.  Dale had always
been afraid it might come to something like this so him and a group of
his Scout Service buddies had made arraingements.  Stockpiled enough
supplies for a season, seed, some weapons and even a few other
essentials.  It's been more than two months since you've had the
electricity to shave, but at least you're safe here, for a while at
least.  Who knows about tommorow, but today at least you're safe, warm
and alive.  Thats more than you can say for half the people on your
planet and winter's just coming.

********************************************************************

Think about it carefully, you've got no power, how many things do you
rely on that use power?

Could you make power?  How?

Could you aquire food?  How about perserve it?

What would you consider the bare essentials for survival?  The clothes
on your back?  The clothes in your closet?  A gun?  A knife?

How long could you survive on a weeks rations?  How would you build
shelter?  Keep warm?  Could you start a fire with the contents of your
pockets?  What about in two months when your lighter runs out of fuel,
what would you do then?

Think about it and we're only TL8, now imagine falling from TL15.  Look
at the contents of your pockets.  Key's flat little pieces of metal yet
we're totally screwed with out them, imagine if everything your life
depended on suddenly stopped working.  What would happen then?

DS

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:31:49 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: _Brilliant Lances_

>From: SRKOALA@aol.com
>Subject: Re: _Brilliant Lances_
...
>How Detailed is the combat?

  Too (IMHO).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:31:59 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Shipping costs recap

...
><<     ** JumpExpressCo - When Too Fast Is Never Enough!(tm) ** >>
>
>You don't happen to have a jump-20 pcs, do you?

 Funny you should ask - we're looking for lab anim^h^h ...test pilots :>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:37:03 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX

Rob, you posted:

>> Hooray! Just picked up "First In" last night.
>> I hope to post a review this weekend for your
>> amusement and flaming.
>
>Are there any good gaming stores in the Dallas Area.
>I'm stuck in Grapevine for a few more days and some
>good reading would be nice.
>
>(Directions from Grapevine would be nice as well)
>
>Rob

Hey! Welcome to Dallas!

The *best* gaming store is in Valley View Mall located on
the north service road of Highway 635 and just east of the
North Dallas Tollway.

Step 1)  Get a map of Dallas if you don't have one; you'll
             need it.
Step 2)  Your goal is to get on 635 and go east towards
             Dallas. You probably need to take 121 to 114, &
             then to 635 but check your map.
Step 3)  Once you're on 635 going east, go *past* the
             Tollway and take the Montfort exit.
Step 4)  Take a left onto Montfort (go north) and the
             huge place to your right is the mall.
Step 5)  Park on the south side of the mall.
Step 6)  Enter the mall and look for a store called
             "The Gamechest".
Step 7)  Ask to speak to Kevin; I've had him put your
             name on a copy of "First In" and hide it behind
             the counter.  BTW, there is NO obligation to buy.

You can call the Gamechest at (972) 490-7814 if you need
better directions. If the Mall is too far out of your way,
feel free to just not show up; they'll put the copy back in
stock in a few days.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:36:40 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Phantom Menace

> If you want to see the movie with NO prior exposure, then treat this message
> as a Spoiler. If you've even seen the theater trailers, I'm not giving
> anything away...
> 
> -10
> -9
> -8
> -7
> -6
> -5
> -4
> -3
> -2
> -1
> 0
> 
> I _almost_ want to put Light Sabers in my Traveller game after seeing this.
> Almost. The trailers do not come close to portraying the intensity of the
> actual duels...

I know what you mean.  That lightsaber fight was incredible.  Unfortunately, 
I had spoiled the outcome by skimming a bit of a graphic novel beforehand.  : 
|  

Also makes me want to do some musings on Traveller psionics.  ;-)  Also to 
whip out my "Tales of the Jedi Companion" by WEG.

> The reviewers are obviously not xenobiologist-wannabees. Jar-Jar is not
> nearly as annoying as they all seem to think.

I'd have to agree. I didn't find him very amusing till he got his tongue 
numbed.  Then I actually noticed I was laughing at alot of his scenes.  He 
was hilarious as a "general," too.  His hijinks actually saved alot of 
Gungans...

As far as understanding him... I could understand bout half of what he said.  
I listen to a 120mm main gun go off nearby all too often, too and have 
notoriously bad hearing.

> The pod race is stunning, and unlike light sabers, pod-racing will fit into
> Traveller just fine. The race announcer must be lampooning _someone_, I'm
> just not sure who. Pit Droids definitely go into MY next game...

I dunno bout the next game... but definately coming up.  Course, I've already 
done speederbikes and swoops.  ;-)

>Worth the money. No question.

I concur.  I've heard alot of people bashing hte plot (and we all know how 
valuable the opinion of professional critics are, don't we?), but it did 
accomplished any possible goals it had.  Did it well, in fact.  It's actually 
too subtle in places IMO, though not if, as it seems, it's drawing on 
knowledge of the Episodes IV through VI.

The cinematography is outstanding, w/o a doubt.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:26:13 PDT
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: Star Wars --- update

With all the hype around the Phantom Menace.  Just a reminder from the 
Toronto Public Libraries there is a book which may interest many on this 
list...
Science of Star Wars:  an astrophysist's independent examination of space 
travel, aliens, planets, and robots as portrayed in the Star Wars Films and 
Books
Author:  Jeanne Cavelos
St. Martin's Press
ISSBN:  0312209584
aviable at most branches


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:38:44 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 01:34 PM 5/20/99 EDT, you wrote:
>> >How do you KNOW this will apply?  This ignores even some obsuricities and
>> >theory from *today* much less a couple thousand years in teh future.  The
>> 
>> No, it does not.  Please quote your source, recongised technical journals
>> only please.
>
>Of course, I don't have any journals from the future... but you might want to 
>check since u seem to have access.  ;-)  Others have already brought up the 
>concepts I had in mind...  Bout 10-15 digests ago IIRC...
>

YOU said 'today' so I asked for sources.

>> >human brain definately doesn't appear to follow that hard cut rule, and
>> 
>> Wrong again.  Nerves are two state devices acording to current research.
>
>"Current research" is hardly without debate.
>

There are those that debate that we went to the moon and that the earth is
flat also...

>> >Even playing along w/ you, Virus is "inside" the computer.  Inside it's
>> >world, it can manipulate the flags as easily as you can scratch your ass.  
>At
>> 
>> Not as sensor data it can not.  Until it is up and running as an executeable
>> it's in limbo like a person in a low birth.  Data does nothing it is worked
>> upon.
>
>Sensor data?  What are you talking about?  It has physically come along (in 
>whatever state it's in... as EM energy) by commo, to either the transponder 
>or the tight beam commo system, thence into the main computer (both of which 
>have a connection).  It's not in a data format.  Excepting "eggs."
>

OK, we can drop that then.

>> >Again, trapped in TL-8.  There is NO Virus "instruction."  Virus *lives*
>> >inside the system.  As a power surge, free-floating program, or whatever.
>> >Those same little electrical pulses that make you the... sophont... known 
>as
>> >Charles Prevatte, maybe.
>> >You can have no argument against synaptics since you don't know how they 
>> > work (and are a ready made Bill Gates if you do...).
>> >
>> 
>> Of course I do.  The concept is at least a decade old.  Hardware and
>> software implementations have been in use atleast that long.  Where have you
>> been?  Don't you keep up?  Oh, maybe the real name is the problem.  They are
>> called neural nets now.
>
>All right!  Well when u hit the 10 billion mark, don't forget to contribute 
>to Traveller. ;-)

Well, perhaps we you hit 10 you'll be able to understand my posts...

>Put "traveller" in front of "synaptics."
>

Very nice way to avoid being proven wrong, change the conditions everytime
you are shown to be wrong.

>> >> Second, inorder for the virsus to become executable it would have to be
>> >> flaged as an execuable.  Any security system will moniter the executables
>> >> list for that very reason.  As long as the virus is data it is in 
>supended
>> >> animation and can take no action.
>> >
>> >Virus can switch the flags.  Like waving your hand.  It can also burn it's
>> >own circutry and disconnect your security system (probably taking over the
>> >ICE, ala HIV and T-cells) or cut routes around the security system, 
>assuming
>> >they'd have any effect to begin with.
>> >
>> 
>> And exactly what is YOUR technical reasoning behind this?  How did it go
>> from senor data 'like a picture' to a program that has OS level systems
>
>I've never called it sensor data "like a picture."  I don't recognise anyone 
>having said anything like that, actually, though I've went through about 30 
>digests in a maybe 2 or 3 hours.
>

Sorry, wrong puncation.  The 's was suposed to be ,s to set aside an appositive.

>> resorces?  And do not say because it's alive.  That is to much like saying
>> it's magic.  You are alive, that does not give you absolute control over the
>> entire earth and all that tread upon it which is what you are saying the
>> virus has in it's world.
>
>No.  Virus is consistent with the internal rules that have been attributed to 
>it.  Not whether it makes to TL-8 computer science.
>

No it isn't, the chips required physical contact with silicon to begin with.

>> >> Third, programs today are being assembled by smart compilers that 
>optomise
>> >> the code for the system they were design to run on.  These compilers have
>> >> millions of hours of experience in compiling to these systems.  I find it
>> >> hard to believe that the virus with little or no experience with the 
>systems
>> >> being attacked can match purpose built optomising compilers.
>> >
>> >"Today."  Course, playing along w/ you, Survival Margin (pg 75) says that 
>the
>> 
>> And you have yet to PROVE that the rules of today will NOT apply.  You
>> insist my real world model is wrong and expect me to take your word only for
>> it yet you refuse to even contempate that todays' model might hold up or
>> that we are much higher that TL8 in computer technology.
>
>Since you're the one attempting to debunk it, you have to prove that they 
>will.  Of course, it's impossible either way.  I just happen to think the cs 
>in your Traveller game is boring.   We're not much higher than TL-9 (canon 
>for optical data storage) or maybe 10 in computer tech (as a novelty maybe) 
>today.  That we're TL-12 or higher is ludicrous given the attributes (though 
>not the corny 70s capabilities from CT) ascribed to Traveller starship 
>computers (especially as opposed to personal hand/wristcomps of which there 
>has has been little).
>

And how is methodology going to make it boring?  It's drama, or the lack of
it that makes things boring not the lack of realizim.

>> >Virus was already extensively trained/designed to take over every standard
>> >Imperial compute configuration (which had been standardized in an "Imperial
>> >Data Package which covered everything from graphite pencils to radial tires
>> >to starship software").  For non Imperial computers, once inside a 
>peripheral
>> 
>> Agreed. I already said that a concideravle level of standardization was
>> required or the virus would have been harmless.
>
>Given the homogenous state of not just Imperial space, but practically 
>everyone except the Vargr and Aslan (though much more than Vargr, due to 
>clans, etc), it's equally likely the others are too.  Those are precisely the 
>areas that Virus was slower, precisely due to those reasons.
>

Of course.  The model I presented would act that way as well.

>> >systme, Virus would watch how they worked.  It would do *nothing* after
>> >carving out it's "hidey hole" except watch how the OS worked and learn how 
>to
>> >manipulate it.
>> >
>> 
>> That's putting the cart before the horse.  It would have to have a very good
>> knowledge of the OS to make that hidey hole.
>
>It's physically altering the circuitry to make the hideyhole. Don't need to 
>know anything about the OS.  It watches and learns after it's safe.  No 

The OS is the method that would be needed to make tyhe change.  If it did
not control the OS it could not make the burn without direct physical
contact with the silicon, as I have said.

>(noticable) activity till it's ready to take control.  That's where it's 
>relation to the Cymbeline predator plays in, though it is not an exact 
>Cymbeline predator.
>

It not even remotely close.

>> >Remember, one of the core principle of Virus is for it to be able to burn
>> >it's own circutry over existing circuity, based on the method of the
>> >Cymbeline predator, just on a larger scale.  *Hardware* not software
>> 
>> And that in itself is not posible based on the discription in the adventure!
>> The chips have to have DIRECT contact with the silicon it was to take over.
>
>Virus is not the chip, though.  It's a distant descendant.  It doesn't need 
>the chip body anymore.  It's capabilites operate on the similar manner, but 
>not identically.  It's evolved more.  Could u buy that?  Or at least think 
>bout it?
>

No, not at all.  It violated to many laws of physics.  The only way the
virus could act like that is if it has psionic powers, Traveller's 'magic'.

>> >modification.  Once it's in the system, that's the first thing it does.
>> >Shutting down and reformating, by whatever method the computers do that is
>> >fine, but a Virus will come right out of it's hidey hole and reinfect.  
>Alot
>> >quicker than you can blink your eyes (though sometimes I imagine u do that
>> >pretty slow).  : P
>> >
>> 
>> That's where you're first operation is a total memory purge.  If a section
>> can't be purged you physically remove it.
>
>That's what the hidey hole is hardwired to prevent.
>

You REMOVE the subsytem with the hidey hole as you could not change the
information in that area.  That's why I said you REMOVE it.  No more hidey
hole.  That curcuit board went out the airlock.

>> >> That is strawman crap.  There will always be a delineation between data 
>and
>> >
>> >To be a strawman, I would have to have put that up for you to knock it 
>down,
>> >which wasn't the case.  Stop using words because they look cool to you.  
>;-)
>> >I'll stop short of accusing u of plagarism.  ;-)
>> >
>> 
>> It is a strawman concept because it is unsuportable and a diversion form the
>> basic concepts.  If you prefer I call it something else.  I'll use the term
>
>What you call a strawman is not a strawman.  A strawman is something put up 
>to be knocked down.  Something to lure u in deeper.  U want to call apples 
>oranges lemme know and i'll play.  Randomly changing the definition words can 
>be fun.  Especially when you don't tell the other guy... ;-) 
>

Semantics again.  Ok I'll call it crap from now on.

>> computer.  It is a curtain thing based on it's definition.  It has to be
>> that thing or it is not a computer.  If we are discussing 'a not computer'
>> you could be right.
>
>Whatever works, slick.  :-)  As has been mentioned, an abacus fits the 
>dictionary definition of computer. 
>

No it does not.  Have you read it?  The abacus is a memnonic tool for the
human that is using it, not a computer as it performs no actions of its' own.

>Computer (kem pyoot 'er) n.  a person or thing that computers; specif., a 
>machine that performs rapid often complex calculations or compiles, 
>correlates, and selects data: see also analog computer, digital computer, 
>synaptic computer.
>
>Ok.  The last one is my addition. ;-)
>

and the abacus does not fit your definition as it does not perform any
calculation.  The person does.  An abacus is a substitute for pen and paper.

>That's alot of room for Virus to fit in.

How?  I do not understand your reference.

>
>> >No crap.  But do you live "inside" a computer?  Nope (though I'm starting 
>to
>> >wonder. lol).  What does data and code "look" like on the "inside?"  If you
>> >could directly manipulate it w/ your "will" or "hand" or whatever it would 
>be
>> >intuitive to you.  Too bad it's not.
>> >
>> 
>> OK, you asked for it.  Prepare to have your logic destroyed.
>
>Ooooo.... my logic is going to be "destroyed."  ;-) 
>
>> as the virus can not change the fact that it is ONLY a very high tech.
>> program that must be running for it to take any action.  Untill it is
>> running it is like I would be in a low birth (if such existed.  I am
>
>That's the fundamental problem w/ your understanding of Virus.  It is not a 
>program.  The name "virus" is a misnomer.  It's a life form that lives in 
>electronics like a fish lives in water.  The Cymbeline chip is it's greatly 
>primitive and distant ancestor.
>

Look you are mixing your paradiums.  If it is not a program it can not
'possess' a computer without physical contact to burn itself in.  If it is
transmited it is a program.  

There is no third state unless you are preposing a purely energy creature,
like a ghost, that just happens to need a host like a computer.  If that is
your paradium them it is a psionic entity as I suggested.

>> inserting this because of your unpleasent habit of twisting any short cut a
>> person takes in responding to you to try and boondoggle, humiliate, taunt,
>> or generally belittle them into conceeding the point to you just so they can
>> egnore all your future posts)
>
>You're catching on.  ;-)  j/k.  
>

It that is supposed to be a joke, I do not find it funny.  If you are not
willing to discuss this rationally then we have nothing to discuss.

>> >I haven't written any, though I've taken a CS class or 3, it does make 
>"anty"
>> 
>> So now you are taking cheep shots at my typographical errors?  What's next
>> spelling?
>
>Nah.  Just yanking your chain.  I do typos and deliberate (and lazy) 
>modifications like "u" for "you", etc all the time.  Course I type pretty 
>fast (bout 90 wpm) and just don't care to run it through aohell's spell 
>checker (slows things down on my dinosaur computer).
>
>> >sense to me.  I'm not debating anything you're saying (though I could take
>> >out some theories, but it seems others have beat me to it) about *todays*
>> 
>> Not so far, be my quest.  I design computers for a living.  I have dozens
>> system designs under my belt.
>
>Not w/ synaptics, you don't.  Nor with holographic crystal storage.  Nor 
>with... etc, etc.   I respect what you do, but you're mistaking that things 
>will never change or develop.  It's entirely possible you're right, but 
>that's pretty durned boring for a far future rpg IMO.
>

Why do you think it is boring?  What limits do you think it would put on the
virus that would make it boring.  You must be skimming my posts.  One of my
complaints is that the virus is not a powerfull as it should be.  It should
be much worse than it is portrayed.

Also Traveller chose to discribe the virus in 20th century terms.  As the
authers made that choice I would say that is pretty much how it works.  The
authers also use other 20th century terms to discribe traveller computers so
those terms must be acurate as the writter are the creaters of cannon.

>> become the 'hidey hole' itself.  I've said this in my own theory of virus
>> operation.  Are you reading all of this and the related threads or are you
>> just skimming?  I am NOT anti-virus.  I am just trying to better define it.
>> In fact if anything I think canon has the virus greatly underpowered.  It
>> behaves very stupidly.
>
>Well I have gone through a large volume of bandwidth in a relatively short 
>period.  That latest email was almost entirely done before the thread had 
>progressed (immediately upon receipt), but I make it a point to edit for 
>outright hostility and my propensity to "boondoggle, humiliate, taunt, and 
>belittle."  :-)
>

So I noticed.

>> >> >Transponder (which consists of two lobotimized cymbeline predators) 
>chatter
>> >> >(w/ direct access to commo and computers) was the primary vector of
>> >> >transmission.  Virus is not a "program."  It's a life form that lives in
>> >> >electronics.  The next vector was computer controlled tight beam commo
>> >> >(accuracies measured in attoradians, doppler shift correction, encoding 
>and
>> >> >decoding, etc).
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> NOT RELAVENT.  If it is the 'chip lifeform' it must have physical contact
>> >
>> >It's surely "relavent" in that it isn't a "chip lifeform" either.  It's 
>eons
>> >above them evolutionary, as Lucan's scientists did in the lab (they had an
>> 
>> If so them why is it so stupid?  It's different I give you that.  More
>> advanced, I dout it.
>
>Cause it's crazy?  Cause it wasn't done when it was accidently released?  The 
>thing you haven't been grasping is it's not just a Cymbeline predator.  It's 

I know, the Cybeline chips made good sence.  The virus does not.

>beyond it.  The capabilities are based on, but not identical to.  Though, of 
>course, I disagree on your particular identification of "stupid" qualities.
>

And what do you find incansistant about the virus?

>> >extraordinary mutation rate, according to Survival Margin).  It's an
>> >electronic lifeform.  Get enough space in a signal (and/or series of 
>signals)
>> >hidden in the tremendous amounts of data required for tightbeam commo from
>> >hundreds of thousands of km, and it's actually moving to the new system.  
>No
>> >"executable" to run.  It's actually "jumped" to the new system (actually
>> >replicated, since the original personality has stayed in it's system).
>> >
>> 
>> That stuff is data.  Gata does not control anything directly.  It would be
>> as if you swallowed a glass vile of poison.  As long as the glass is intact
>> you are safe.
>
>It's an electronic life form.  Not data.  Read my original quote, coupled 
>with bits from above.
>

So it is an 'electrical' ghost and able to manipulate it's energy 'body' to
cause the effect discribed?  If so then your discrition is self consistant
as logical.  What I would like to know is what creature they crossed with
the chips to give it this property.

>> Every 3I ship except pirates, yes.
>
>Heh.  U wanna go there?  ;-)
>

Not really, I conseeded that one fairly quickly once Bruce and some others
pointed out the numbers.  Pirates can last long in the trade lanes.  They
have to stick to the backwaters.  I agree with the 'sunbeard declaration'.
Frankly if I was in the pirates shoes, I take up smuggling.

>> >computer prison.  This was mentioned by Survival Margin too.  You have read
>> 
>> I own a copy of the book.  There is not mention of the nature of the
>> security systems.  CRC is NEVER mentioned.
>
>Ahem.  Briefly mentioned in Pg 78. 2nd column, 3rd paragraph.
>

I'll try to look it up this weekend.  No promises though, I'm going to the
beach with my SO and may not get arround to it.

>> >the book, haven't you?  lol.  Or at least "When Empires Fall?"  The only
>> >thing visible would've been power spikes as Virus was cutting new circutry.
>> 
>> Which would trip the overcurrent, and/or watchdog system on any reasonable
>> designed system.
>
>It would say 
>

What happened here????

>> >Noone but Lucan's scientists would've known what it meant, though.  It's
>> 
>> In the first few months, true.  Also if the burn in power were from the
>
>That's all it took.  It spread and spread and spread until practically 
>everyone was infected, before the tech started to rebel.  If you got the news 
>about the rebeling technology, you got the Virus (since the Xboat network got 
>infected, too, as well as Dulinor and Lucan's fleets, and the couriers sent 
>back to report, etc).
>
>> real world.  A true secured system is all but unbeatable to hackers and
>> viruses (in the real world).  The transponder makes ship systems NOT secure
>> so this does not apply.
>
>Tight beam commo.  
>

Depends on your assumptions.  With analog controls of the commo gear the
virus would not have a curcuit it could subvert.

>> >When you're reconfiguring the physical circutry, this is not a problem,
>> >ignoring your TL-8 rut.  ;-)
>> > 
>> 
>> True, but you still have not explained how the virus in the SEALED
>> transponder gained physical direct access to the computers bare silicon
>> which is required of the chips lifeforms as state in the canon that
>> introduced them.
>
>From the transponder through the direct and unimpeded access to the main 
>computers.  Or from the tight beam commo system with same endpoint.
>

That is not PHYSICAL contact.  It has to be Silicon to silicon according to
the adventure that introduced the chips.

>> >> And the FIB will load all it's programs from it's own ROM to start with 
>and
>> ><snip>
>> >
>> >It's the same.  They operate the same.  Part of Imperial standardization.
>> >Besides, most ships w/ Fb comps don't have St comps (what's the point?  If
>> >you're expecting EMP, your St's will be shut down...)
>> >
>> 
>> And the burn in to the 'chips' would not work on the FIBs.  Different
>> materials and no physical contact, only light pipes.
>
>more like cable, isn't it?  Anyways there would still be the main boards, etc 
>(or whatever the equivalent is).  Those aren't "light pipes."
>

Yes they are.  That is how you get a system immune to the emp.  It all works
on light.  In effect it's light based transiters.  They would be emmune to
the burn in effect as they do not conduct electricity in the logic and
memory curcuits.  A Virus controled computer could probably kill the FIB if
it couls gain control of robots or the main power bus controlers, assuming
the FIB is powered when not in use.  If not then only a physical attack
could take out the FIB.

>> >> showed it's hand to early.  It stared killing ships with two weeks, IIRC.
>> >
>> >Two weeks?  Where you came up w/ that is beyond me.  LOL.  Not from 
>Survival
>> >Margin, though if you count malfuctions (misjumps) it could.  It didn't
>> >"kill" ships ala Vampires till the Collapse (months afterwards), AFAIK.
>>
>> 
>> Yes, survival margin.  Read the history of the first fleet infected.  Ships
>> had to be abbandonded or disappear in jump within a few weeks.
>
>That's different than turning into a Vampire.  They did not do that.  Your 
>memory is faulty.  Plus, those two fleets were an exception because the Virus 
>was purposely beamed straight into Dulinors main comp (and SM explicitly says 
>he disregarded advise against data contamination) because he wanted to 
>analyze the "weapons data" not realizing he had the actual weapon.
>

The first virus was the suicider stain.  The vampires are a group of
different strains.  Suiciders do not last long.

>> >> >Um... that's exactly how it happened.  Reread Survival Margin, please. 
>What
>> >> >you describe matches exactly Survival Margin pg 74 and 75.  I don't know
>> >> >what "cannon" you've been reading..
>> >>
>> >> I did, that is not how it is documented.  It jumped mainly through the 
>comm
>> >
>> >It is too.  You want me to quote the whole thing?  Or is this another book
>> >not "available" to you to participate in the discussion and you're faking 
>the
>> >funk?
>>
>> 
>> I do not understand the above.  I have Vampire fleets for curtain and
>> survival margin,  IIRC.  I'm trying to fill in the gaps.
>
>I told you the pages and book.  I'll quote the whole thing if you need me to.
>

No, they are at home.  I work on the road.  I'll check this weekend.

>> As for detail YOU miss the part about 'physical contact' being required and
>> the silicon is specified as the specific media.
>
>Didn't miss it at all.  It can have physical contact, as we talk about in the 
>"sealed black box" part above.
>

That is not physical contact.  See the chip adventure for how they
reproduce.  It has to be silicon to silicon contact.

>> By the way if you want my spelling to improve you should include the correct
>> spelling when you quote my pour spelling.  I;m an engineer not an english
>> major.  If you want to push in that area, I'll turn your text over to my SO.
>> She has her masters in English.  You are a doofer compared to her.  She does
>> the proof reading for me when I need to release something more formal than
>> email on a hobbie mail server.
>
>lol.  I'm just yanking your chain.  I certainly have typos now and then.  A 
>"doofer?" ;-)
>

Golf term for someone that is not very good at golf.

>> By the way sorry for the random snips.  My mail editer has an momory limit
>> for the length of one email.  I needed to make room for my responces.
>
>It's ok by me.  
>

Thanks.


Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #652
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 20 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 653



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fw: Star Wars vs. Titanic
Re: Light Sabers (no star wars spoilers) 
Re: ADMIN: Movie Stuff and Off Topic Posts
Re: ADMIN: Movie Stuff and Off Topic Posts 
Re: Classic Traveller
Re: shameless plug...   SETI@Home
Re: Classic Traveller
Re: shameless plug...   SETI@Home
Re: Fleet Ops
Re: shameless plug...   SETI@Home
The art and science of lightsabers  (Was Re: Light Sabers)
Re: A Plea for Cinema Restraint
Subject: Re: Book Seven
Carrots for the living dead
Re: _Brilliant Lances_
Re: Shipping costs recap
TL interpretation
Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX
Pricing Floors
Re: Query
Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)
Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX
Re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Re: : A plea for cinema restraint...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:54:51 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Star Wars vs. Titanic

> Kate Winslet naked.  Nuff said.

Huh?  where?!  WHERE?!!!!
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:49:26 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Light Sabers (no star wars spoilers) 

> > With all the excitement of Star Wars, I know my players are going to be
> > wanting Light Sabers... is their any scientific way these could be possible?
> > Even if by handwave? Something believable... I know it can be easy to except
> > a little fantasy... but if their was a way to do and have it work in the
> > regular background...
> > 
> I had once upon a time worked a light saber into the game.  I used a slightly
> modified version of the "SnapShot" and added blasters and light sabers.  

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...
 
> The biggest problem is that they go out of scope from Traveller's Sci-Fi 
> background to more of a "Space Opera/Science Fantasy" setting.  The weapons
> really didn't fit in.  I'm in Texas now and my books are at home in NC.
> If I can find my "Chart", I will try to upload the data.  I built a chart 
> mixing in weapon and shield adjustments to form a simple look up table.
> It was something like: (I'm making this up, just showing you the layout)

Cool.  Love to see it.  But I don't see a light saberish weapon as being out 
of the scope of Traveller; AAMOF, I see Traveller as a great canvas *FOR* a 
'space opera' setting.  Where else can a handful of people affect things on a 
Galaxy-wide basis?
 
> Weapon Damage  No Armor       Cloth        Battle Dress
>                C  S  M  L     C  S  M  L   C  S  M  L
> 9mm    2D      3  5  9  11    5  9  11 15  9  13 18 21
> 
> The CSML is the range (Close, Short, Medium, Long) and the number is what you have
> to roll on 2d6 + mods to score the Damage in data.  Its been several years since
> I have even looked at the stuff.
> 
> Any way, back to your question, what might be more practice is to introduce a 
> mono-filimant or vibro-blade.
> 
> A scientific way to build one is to have a mono-filimant wire attached to a spool
> and a mirror.  When you turn the light saber on, the energy pushes the mirror out
> to the length of the mono-filimant wire.  The mirror and one built into the handle
> act as a focusing reflector to concentrate the beam.

One of my players in my first campaign ended up with a 'plasma blade'.  It was 
heavy (about 3 kilos), and created a 'blade' of plasma contained in a 
projected magnetic field from the 'hilt'.  Took 1 combat round for the 'blade' 
to extend or retract.  Did about as much damage as a laser rifle, needed 
strength *and* dex to weild properly.  And the girl didn't know it, but you 
were *supposed* to wear a special glove (not included!!) to keep your hand 
from 'cooking' from the discharge.  It could be 'active' for about 15 mins on 
1 charge, could be recharged from a standard power tap in a starship in about 
an hour (adapter not included!!).  It was a TL16 artifact IIRC, produced in aa 
culture to spinward of the Imperium that emphasised dueling and honor...
 
> However it would be an energy sword.  A light saber in the hands of a jedi does
> a lot more than hack through things.  I don't want to spoil the movie for any one,
> but the light saber is a most interesting tool.  These things are a lot harder
> to build into Traveller.

Her plasma blade could deflect other plasma blades, of course.  Though it 
*wouldn't* deflect a plasma gun burst or anything (course, I didn't tell *HER* 
that!!!!).  First time she pulled & used it on somebody, the target said "What 
the hell *IS* that???", to which she replied "Efficient." and promptly burnt 
him to the ground.  Needless to say, they weren't that common a gadget...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:08:16 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Movie Stuff and Off Topic Posts

Rob Miracle wrote:
> 
> All of us here are sci-fi fans.  No doubt, most of us have already
> scene the movie or will see it by the weekend.  Star Wars may have
> been the catylist that pulled us into the genre to begin with.
> 
> The Traveller Mailing List seems like a natural gathering point
> for this discussion, however its not.  Its about talking about
> Traveller.

Actually, I originally joined for Classic Traveller, but I realize no
one plays that anymore, so I just glean what I can from the list (there
are tons of good ideas here) and convert it.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:03:20 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Movie Stuff and Off Topic Posts 

> > All of us here are sci-fi fans.  No doubt, most of us have already
> > scene the movie or will see it by the weekend.  Star Wars may have
> > been the catylist that pulled us into the genre to begin with.
> > 
> > The Traveller Mailing List seems like a natural gathering point
> > for this discussion, however its not.  Its about talking about
> > Traveller.
> 
> Actually, I originally joined for Classic Traveller, but I realize no
> one plays that anymore, so I just glean what I can from the list (there
> are tons of good ideas here) and convert it.

Yeah, some of us *DO* still play CT.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:12:21 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
> Actually, I originally joined for Classic Traveller, but I realize no
> one plays that anymore, so I just glean what I can from the list (there
> are tons of good ideas here) and convert it.

Bite your tongue!  Then visit www.downport.com and check out the "CT
Resurgence" link.  And if you really get an itch to play, I'll load up the
back of my Buick and trundle "down south" for a session.  We might even be
able to get a few old timers from the Boston area to join us, what?

The CT Maine-iac :-)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SwordWorlder
http://www.downport.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:19:51 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: shameless plug...   SETI@Home

Thank you, I had originally signed up for this but never got an email
that it was finally available.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:32:48 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller

"C. Michael (Swordy)" wrote:
> 

> Bite your tongue!  Then visit www.downport.com and check out the "CT
> Resurgence" link.  And if you really get an itch to play, I'll load up the
> back of my Buick and trundle "down south" for a session.  We might even be
> able to get a few old timers from the Boston area to join us, what?
> 
> The CT Maine-iac :-)
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> SwordWorlder
> http://www.downport.com

My main character, "Lucas Trask", is a sword worlder as well.  :)

Yeah, load the car up and come down.  I'm in Manchester, New Hampshire.

- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:26:33 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: shameless plug...   SETI@Home

Just a quick note...the link provided earlier only gets you to the Win95
version. Go to:

http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu

for the Mac and Unix (A variety of ports) versions.

Jory Earl wrote:
> 
> Thank you, I had originally signed up for this but never got an email
> that it was finally available.
> --
> ___________________________________________________________
>  J-Man
>  ICQ# 2843475
>  Email : j-man@iname.com
>  Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
> ___________________________________________________________

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:28:08 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Fleet Ops
...
>The problem I'm seeing is the usual one for starship combat games
>of any scale: why not put your entire fleet in one big pile? 
>
>You go to an enemy system, you put all your fleet in one big task force.
>Unless the defender has a massive numerical superiority, you defeat
>every seperate point in the system he's trying to defend - five or ten
>little battles instead of one big one. 
...

  I may have missed something later in this thread, but why not restrict
each grouping to one "in-system box (/location) per week? TCS already does
this already (in part) with the refuelling rules.

  By adopting this a spread out defense forces the attacker to estimate
resources needed at each target (based on limited tac-intel) without even
knowing whether a given targets defenders are indeed outclassed or whether
they will to stay put for the supposed battle - the safest disengagement
by acceleration is when your enemy is decelerating and you head off at an
acute angle to their course :>

  And that's before allowing for defending SDB's sitting quietly in a
position to interfere with an action.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:30:21 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: shameless plug...   SETI@Home

Cool.   thanks.


Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Just a quick note...the link provided earlier only gets you to the Win95
> version. Go to:
>
> http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu
>
> for the Mac and Unix (A variety of ports) versions.
>
> Jory Earl wrote:
> >
> > Thank you, I had originally signed up for this but never got an email
> > that it was finally available.
> > --
> > ___________________________________________________________
> >  J-Man
> >  ICQ# 2843475
> >  Email : j-man@iname.com
> >  Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
> > ___________________________________________________________
>
> --
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:37:07 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: The art and science of lightsabers  (Was Re: Light Sabers)

Ian Ferguson wrote:

> Shawn Campbell writes:
> <snipped>
> "With all the excitement of Star Wars, I know my players are
> going to be wanting Light Sabers... is their any scientific
> way these could be possible? Even if by handwave? Something
> believable... I know it can be easy to except a little
> fantasy... but if their was a way to do and have it work in the
> regular background..."

> Peez

This page attempts to explain and examine them in detail.

http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/ls/sabres.htm

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:25:12 -0400
From: "Shade" <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: A Plea for Cinema Restraint

>Since I was 10 in 1977, I didn't rush out to see Star Wars. I was however,
>reading Heinlen, Niven, Clarke, Pournelle, and anyone else I could get my
>hands on. Traveller fit right into this "Golden Age of Science Fiction",
>no light sabres, no creatures living in vacuums, lasers were light beams
and
>didn't make the noise you get when you hit a cable supporting a telephone
>pole with a piece of metal, and when ships exploded in space: they made no
>noise!
>
>I didn't see Star Wars until I was in my 20's, and was not surprised that
>what I had read about it was true: It did more damage to science fiction
>than any other movie before or since. (Now Bladerunner, Outlands? (Sean
>Connery, Jupiter), 2001, ... they were SF movies!)


This was the problem I was explaining to people here at my game session last
Saturday.  Star Wars, and this new movie is no exception, is NOT science
fiction.  It is fantasy.  Pure and simple.

It takes place in space, past that, thats it.

Shade

BTW, I saw the movie and I loved it.  You just have to go with the right
frame of mind :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:39:26 CEST
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Subject: Re: Book Seven

>And it had some trade rules, but now that we all have Far Trader >they're 
>redundant...
>
>Bruce

Could you please tell my FLGS that? (Someone in Sweden been able
to find Far Trader? I got all the other GT stuff really fast)

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:37:47 CEST
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Carrots for the living dead

I've been trying to figure this out for a long time.

>Jussi_K._Kenkkil <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi>
>"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

Translation Swedish->English
"Don't give carrots to the living dead."

Just why shouldn't you....

...since they already see in the dark.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:19:33 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: _Brilliant Lances_

 
> How Detailed is the combat?

There are 400 surface, and 400 volume hit areas for every ship.

(1d20 broad areas, with 1d20 distinctions within--though most are
1-10 hold, 11-15 fuel, 16-20 Lab kind of things)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:20:19 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Shipping costs recap

Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
> ...
> ><<     ** JumpExpressCo - When Too Fast Is Never Enough!(tm) ** >>
> >
> >You don't happen to have a jump-20 pcs, do you?
> 
>  Funny you should ask - we're looking for lab anim^h^h ...test pilots :>

Why not combine the two concepts?  I'm sure that laboratory mice bent on
global domination could find a way to use jump-20 ships in a bid for
_galactic_ overlordship....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 00:30:37 CEST
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: TL interpretation

Lately there have been a lot of discussions about TL:s and which piece
of technology is TL:That or TL:Other. I'm specially thinking about
the various computer treads and the Terra TL tread. I think much of
the problem is caused by the different interpretations of capabilities of 
the TL is caused by the way TL have been described.

I'm now thinking about several posters (no malice intended but I think your 
reasoning is faulty) who have claimed that todays computers are TL10-12) or 
that Earth's novelty TL is 10. It often seems like they have looked at the 
TL description and said:

- - Well, voice control of a computer is TL10. We have computers/programs that 
can handle voice control therefore we have computer TL:10.

I have a friend who had a, IIRC, 486 20MHz (back in the good old days)
that used voice recognition. Would this mean that a 486 is a TL:10
computer? Of course it wouldn't.

Voice control at TL7-8 (whatever a 486 should be) and other supposedly 
higher TL items (the F-117 for example) are mostly either experimental, 
"cutting edge" or novelty tech. They are however still TL7-9 something. 
Disclaimers for slip-ups, truth is strangers fiction, 22 year old edition of 
our favourite game etc apply. (Hey this game is older than me! :) Wonder if 
it will outlast me?)

Most if not all the TL descriptions I have seen (I got TNE, T4, GT and some 
MT) give me the impression of describing _common_ technologies not the first 
introduction of said technology. By TL10 the mouse/keyboard have been 
replaced by voice control thats why it has been described as a TL10 
technology.

Novelty tech is novelty tech and doesnt rate a special mentioning in the 
description of TL:s so there is really no canon TL for those.

The other problem is that the OTU and many other (personal) TUs have 
different assumptions on, for example, how hard AI is to achieve but that is 
another ballgame and YTU can be anything you like. It is however difficult 
to come to a consensus when everyone uses different assumptions and so we 
get endless series of 30k mails about these subjects.

Now I will stop before this turns into another 30k post.

Patrik
"What flavour of Traveller do you want to play today"
Holmstrm


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:19:42 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX

Rob Miracle wrote:

> > Hooray! Just picked up "First In" last night.
> > I hope to post a review this weekend for your
> > amusement and flaming.
>
> Are there any good gaming stores in the Dallas Area.
> I'm stuck in Grapevine for a few more days and some
> good reading would be nice.
>
> (Directions from Grapevine would be nice as well)
>
> Rob

Look up Lone Star Comics in the phone book.
Several locations - one should be close.
But I'd call about Gurps stuff.
The other two places I know are in North Dallas
in Prestonwood Mall and Valley View Mall.
Don't recall the names.


- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 00:35:45 CEST
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Pricing Floors

>Probably the same reasons that Doctors seem to all have their >billing set 
>to Medicaid/Medicare coverage plus co-payment, or
>maximum insurance "Customary and Reasonable" plus copayment... The >vast 
>majority seem to be subsidized by governments; many government >subsidies 
>prevent you from charging more than their fixed rate, but >likewise, do not 
>require a lowest bidder situation.
>
>If the prices are established by imperial payment schedules, and the
>imperium constitutes 30% or more of shipping, you can bet almost >everyone 
>will be around those numbers. Since we know that the TAS >rates match up, 
>I'd figure some 30-60% covered rates.

I haven't seen a canon mentioning of this ever. It would be important enough 
to be warrant a line or two somewhere. The Imperium subsidies
ships not tickets so the supply/demand/cost of interstellar traffic should 
determine the price of the ticket.

>As for the longer jump mechanism, there is no incentive for carriers >to 
>have J3 vessels, under subsidy rates, so there won't be many, and >they 
>will be booked up quick...

If they fill up quickly you definitely have a market thus they would be 
(more) common.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>


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Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 00:35:59 CEST
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Query

>>They would need to last at least 50 refills to actually work out >>cheaper 
>>than fixed tanks.
>>
>>Presumably they would be useable for any bulk liquid or powder 
>> >>transport, if such an opportunity presented itself.
>>
>>Hmmmm, ISS beer contract anyone?  Probably need a fair size fleet >>for 
>>that :-)
>
>Don't they just recycle it?

Hush! Don't expose the secret of American beer....Ohh, did you mean the 
tanks?

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:57:01 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)

>>>> (begin quoted material)
However, that got me to wondering. They're doing some amazing things
with 'not
quite nano'technology these days, microscopic gears, electric cars half
the
size of a rice grain, arrays of aimable mirrors, etc. I wonder whether
ferrite
core memory would work on that scale. While this would _still_ be a lot
more
powerhungry and larger than conventional ram, it would be a lot smaller
than
any handmade core memory (and it was _all_ hand made...I don't think
they ever
automated that process). It would make computers much larger. It would
also be
a severe bitchkitty to make, at least the first few times. Fortunately
it
doesn't depend on round conductors, so I would think it could be done
using
current etching and deposition technology. But IANAEE, so I don't
know.
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>>>> (end quoted material)
One possible technology that might fit what you are thinking of is
Magnetic Domain Memory (at least that is the name that sticks in my
memory).  It is also called "bubble memory."  This was supposed to be
the next big memory wave in the early 80s, but never came about for some
reason.  Probably the sticking point was that it was significantly more
expensive, and the initial demand wasn't high enough to get
manufacturing streamlined and large scale.  I understand that a limited
amount is still made for some military applications, but haven't heard
specific units it might be in.  Bubble memory is also non-volotile, and
could be turned off and turned back on at the exact same point in a
calculation (no hard drive needed).
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:43:02 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX

>>> Hooray! Just picked up "First In" last night.
>>> I hope to post a review this weekend for your
>>> amusement and flaming.
>>
>>Are there any good gaming stores in the Dallas Area.
>>I'm stuck in Grapevine for a few more days and some
>>good reading would be nice.
>
>You guys do know that you can just mail-order the book directly from
>SJG, right?
>

 Yes, but as I tell the other game company that I do mail order business 
with, I prefer to support my local game store(s) whenever possible. Mail 
Order is nice, but without the FLGS this industry will just be dust very 
quickly...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:07:28 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: 3I Raising Military Forces

In a message dated 5/19/99 11:32:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
wombat@premier.net writes:

<<                        Dave Nelson
 
 Ave!  Ave Nelson!  Ave Nelson Imperator!  ;-)
  >>

It's nice when someone "gets" my screenname, it's actually a nice bilingual 
pun.

	Ave Nelso is Latin for "Hail Nelson", but it's also "Dave Nelson" 
minus the first and last letter, so its easy for people to remember (one way 
or the other depending on to whom I speak).

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:12:16 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: : A plea for cinema restraint...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Shawn Campbell <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 10:43 PM
>
>I consider myself lucky. My wifes friends brother who knows a guy that
works
>at the theater (this sounds silly) convinced his manager that if he presold
>400 tickets they would make an extra showing of Star Wars on Saturday at
>7:30am. I snatched up 6 tickets before they were all gone. I didn't think
>I'd see the movie for atleast a month after it came out... I never would
>have though I'd see it on the fourth day.
>
>As for all the critics... I don't care. I'm going to go see the new Star
>Wars and it'll be good no matter what. :-)
>
>Shawn Campbell


I have a good friend who's wife is a theater manager.  She got the movie in
Monday and was required to put their two copies (two of the fourplex cinema
showing it) which she spliced together all the reals.  She then had to
preview the movies to make sure they were okay. She had her husband invite
about twenty of us in for a sneak preview on Tuesday morning (a day ahead of
release.)  No lines, no crowds and a day early, first time it ever happened
to me.  The group that went chipped in and got them a gift certificate at a
good restaraunt as token of our appreciation.

I was NOT disappointed.  It was Star Wars, nothing more, nothing less and I
had a great time as did my friends I watched it with.

Thom Harris

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #653
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 20 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 654



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Re: Fw: Star Wars vs. Titanic
Query
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
Re: ADMIN:  List Changes a commin'
Re: Query
Re: OTU Cannon (was "Re: Computer Technology")
Re: Shipping costs recap 
Re: Fw: Star Wars vs. Titanic 
Re: _Brilliant Lances_
Re: Classic Traveller
Re: Shipping costs recap
Re: Car Rental
Re: Car Rental
Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)
Re: Sector Data
Re: Analog Aliens
Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)
Re: You might not belive this...
Boston area headcount
"no one plays CT anymore" / sick (CT) ideas
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Classic Traveller
Re: Boston area headcount
Re: Analog Aliens
Re: You might not belive this...
Re: _Brilliant Lances_
Re: ADMIN:  List Changes a commin'
Materials

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:14:56 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: 3I Raising Military Forces

In a message dated 5/20/99 3:44:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
frankie@mundens.gen.nz writes:

<< 
 >Ave!  Ave Nelson!  Ave Nelson Imperator!  ;-)
 
 Nos morituri, te salutamus  !
 
 Frankie
  >>

	gratias vobis ago.     viri veri estis omnes!

			Dave N

	ObTrav:   Rule OF Man:   ROM,   ROME, a coincidence, I think not.
		Traveller in Latin  "Peregrinus"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:16:36 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fw: Star Wars vs. Titanic

In a message dated 5/20/99 6:26:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< 
 Excuse me?
 
 Kate Winslet naked.  Nuff said.
 --  >>

	I didn't see Titanic, but Princess Leia in gold bikini wasn't too 
shaby either.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:21:21 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Query

  Is there errata for B:6 Scouts anywhere?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:20:30 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

In a message dated 5/20/99 9:41:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
cos90@powersurfr.com writes:

<< out the success of Star Wars to pave the way. Before Star Wars, there
 was very little SF being made on film. 2001 was a rare exception, and that
 was in 1968, 10 years before Star Wars. >>

	Hey, what about the Charlton Heston Sci-Fi fest of late 60's, early 
70's:
	"Planet of the Apes, Omega Man, Soylent Green"

					Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:38:55 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: ADMIN:  List Changes a commin'

- -----Original Message-----
From: Moody, Danny M. <DMoody@bridge.com>
To: 'traveller@mpgn.com' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 12:01 PM


>On Thursday, 20 May 1999 09:31, Rob Miracle [SMTP:rwm@mpgn.com] wrote:
>> We will say good bye to a nearly 8 year old DecStation 5000
>> that is on its last legs, and saying help to a Pentium II
>Saying 'help'?
>
>Y'know - my dec alphas need much less care than my intel boxes also. :-)
>
> -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --


I just got my hands on a DEC ALPHA 21164 LX mother board and a 600Mhz EV56
CPU.  I will be loading LINUX on it Monday.  I work in the prototype lab at
Compaq in the Alpha Developement Group.  We are building Dual Processor
21264 (64 bit CPU) computers using up to 4 gig of ram running from 466Mhz to
667Mhz on the EV6 CPU.  We actually have fired up a few using a special
cooling system to 1,000Mhz in tests using the EV67 CPU.

I'll let the TML know how my project goes with LINUX system.

Thom Harris

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:45:33 -0700
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Query

> >
> >Don't they just recycle it?
> 
> Hush! Don't expose the secret of American beer....Ohh, did you mean the 
> tanks?
> 
RONFLMAOSTC

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:46:58 -0400
From: T Green <tgreen3@tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: OTU Cannon (was "Re: Computer Technology")

At 11:30 PM 5/18/99 -0500, Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
>T Green wrote:
>> 
>> In a message dated 99-05-15 19:23:18 EDT,
>> "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
>> 
>> > The big Laws of Traveller Canon are:
>> > 1. Interstellar travel takes one week, no matter the distance [up to 6 
>> >    parsecs].
>> > 2. Travel is the fastest form of communication.
>> >
>> > Those two are about it...
>> 
>> Uhh, Douglas?  How 'bout...
>> 
>> 3) Local delegation of Imperial authority to the Imperial nobility to cope
>> with #1 + #2
>> 
>> 4) Public J-4 xboat network [leaving J-6 relays for covert CT/MT-era
>> Imperial use]
>> 
>> 5) Empires rise, fall, ... <repeat>
>> 
>> 6) "Major races" [discovered jump drive on their own] vs "minor races"
>> 
>> 7) Psionics
>> 
>Citizen Berry mentioned the two most important factors in maintaining
>the "feel" of Traveller, without regard for campaign setting.  Factors 3
>through 7 are essential to the _Official_ TU, but are not necessary for
>the feel of the game as such.
>
>One can, for instance, run a Milieu: Interstellar Wars campaign in which
>factors 3, 4, 6, and 7 above are unimportant.  OTOH, the key factors of
>travel time and communication speed _must_ be maintained for the game to
>be recognizably Traveller.

Hmmm.   I'll grant you both that #3 and #4 are peculiar to CT and MT, and
that I just got bit by #5.  <blush>

Let's call #6 a draw, BUT even in Milleau Zero you've got to put up with #7:

   Just how do you maintain operational security in the vicinity of a
   Psionics Institute?

   How do you keep your PC's butt from getting stomped by that little
   bird-like Droyne who flat-out was _not_ there a second ago?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:06:28 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Shipping costs recap 

> Steven Hudson wrote:
> > 
> > ...
> > ><<     ** JumpExpressCo - When Too Fast Is Never Enough!(tm) ** >>
> > >
> > >You don't happen to have a jump-20 pcs, do you?
> > 
> >  Funny you should ask - we're looking for lab anim^h^h ...test pilots :>
> 
> Why not combine the two concepts?  I'm sure that laboratory mice bent on
> global domination could find a way to use jump-20 ships in a bid for
> _galactic_ overlordship....

Pinky, I think I'm going to have to hurt you now...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:09:08 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Star Wars vs. Titanic 

> In a message dated 5/20/99 6:26:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> dberry@hooked.net writes:
> 
> << 
>  Excuse me?
>  
>  Kate Winslet naked.  Nuff said.
>  --  >>
> 
> 	I didn't see Titanic, but Princess Leia in gold bikini wasn't too 
> shaby either.

Nice legs, but a little light in the chest area...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:52:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: _Brilliant Lances_

>>From: SRKOALA@aol.com
>>Subject: Re: _Brilliant Lances_
>...
>>How Detailed is the combat?
>
>  Too (IMHO).

No, it ran smooth enough, and quite fast too. The problem is that the
explanations in the rulebook are poorly written, and it requires jumping
around too many pages to check everything. As well, the ship record sheets
should have come pre-filled-out for the ships used in the scenarios.

Shalom & I found that when we got to the third game we were playing at a
fairly fast clip, to the stage where filling in the record sheets before
the game was a significant portion of play time (which we solved by filling
in a sheet for each ship type, and xeroxing).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:17:57 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller

At 04:32 PM 5/20/1999 -0400, J-Man wrote:

>My main character, "Lucas Trask", is a sword worlder as well.  :)
Hmmm...and where might that be from?


Jimmy Simpson
       nimrodd@fastlane.net

"You can get more with a kind word
      and a 2 x 4,
than you can with just a kind word."
                          -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:08:00 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Shipping costs recap

>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
...
>Why not combine the two concepts?  I'm sure that laboratory mice bent on
>global domination could find a way to use jump-20 ships in a bid for
>_galactic_ overlordship....

  I don't know - I'm more familiar with lab rats, and the only thing they 
seem to want power for is to punish their profs/supervisors :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 18:44:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Car Rental

In mail you write:

> Better yet, bringing the full talents of the tech support department to
> bear to make the new networked HP printer capable of printing on 11x17
> paper, then having the chief techie say something like "Whew, that sure did
> take a lot of man-hours to get working right, what did you need it for
> anyway?".
>
> I mean, I just made the one casual remark that I couldn't get it working,
> how did I know it would take two guys 3 hours each to get it up and
> running?  I just wanted it for deckplans!

Well, I'm just glad that I got an HP 7475A plotter (A & B sized paper)
*cheap* some years back. 

BTW, does anyone have nice plans in HPGL format sized for B sized paper?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 18:47:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Car Rental

In mail you write:

> "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> wrote:
>>Better yet, bringing the full talents of the tech support department to
>>bear to make the new networked HP printer capable of printing on 11x17
>>paper, then having the chief techie say something like "Whew, that sure did
>>take a lot of man-hours to get working right, what did you need it for
>>anyway?".
>>
>>I mean, I just made the one casual remark that I couldn't get it working,
>>how did I know it would take two guys 3 hours each to get it up and
>>running?  I just wanted it for deckplans!
>
> ;-)
>
>
> A0 roll fed colour 600 dpi Ink jet at work....
>
> Maybe I should do some deckplans ;-/

At one place I used to work, if I'd asked nicely (and supplied my own
paper, no doubt) I'm pretty sure the guys in drafting might have let me
use the E size plotter and the blueprint machine. 

Of course, E sized plans are just a bit hard to use on a normal table. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 18:52:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: adventure seed (was Re: Starship Depreciation)

In mail you write:

> On 05/17/99 at 10:18 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>
>>>> That very idea was used by Daniel da Cruz (?) for 'The Ayes of
>>>> Texas', in which the battleship Texas is rebuilt while still on
>>>> display.

>>> Is it a novel?  Written when?
>
>>It's the first of a *series* of novels. It came out 10-15 years back.
>
> I read the first two, were there others in that series?

There were at least 3, possibly 4. (Damn, I hate having most of my
books in storage)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 18:54:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sector Data

In mail you write:

>>People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
>>  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
>
> I'd like to see some of these PETA types try their tactics (eg,
> throwing paint or a vial of blood) against some leather-clad
> bikers. In fact, I'd pay money to see that and the inevitable
> response...

Mercedes Lackey has a *wonderful* short story with such types trying to
free some "cloned" dinosaurs. It's titled "Last Rights" and is in the
"Fiddler's Fair" collection. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:02:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 99-05-17 14:48:47 EDT, you write:
>
> << Is this the alternative FTL drives bit with the wormhole timeslips? >>
>
> Ahh, simple, move ONE end of the worm hole at near C and use the time
> dif to travel back in time.  The problem comes up of how to go though
> the worm hole with out colapsing it,  you have to negat all grav
> forces trying to bring the worm hole in on its self.  once you get
> this fixed and have some way to move the worm hole at near C you have
> you self a time machine, there are, how ever, easyer ways.

Well, actually we are now fairly certain that wormhole based time
travel won't worked. Someone (Stephen Hawking?) has shown that once
there's a time difference between the ends, moving them close enough to
travel even *microseconds* into the past will cause an effect similar
to Hawking radiation in black holes. In this case instead of the event
horizon causing the virtual particles to become real, it's the wormhole
allowing them to go to a different time. And the energy output in
*this* case has a positive feedback effect, such that the energy will
cascade until the wormhole is destroyed. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:11:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL

In mail you write:


> IIRC, non-volatile memory in Traveller does not refer to storage
> media such as hard drives, disks, CD-ROMS, etc.  The concept, as I
> understand it, seems to indicate that the RAM of the system is
> non-volatile.  In other words, you could remove the power from a
> computer in the midst of processing a complex equation, then later
> (much later, even) restore power to the system, and the computer
> would pick right up where it left off, in mid-calculation.

Congratulations. You described Magnetic Core memory. 

However, unless the CPU *and* program* are designed for it, what you
describe can't happen. You see, the *cpu* is not non-volatile. And it
is what stores things like current program state, and the address that
the program is currently processing.

In fact, I don't think a non-volatile CPU is possible, or at the very
least not *desirable*.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 18:41:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)

In mail you write:

> No great Traveller ones, but we had a Paranoia scenario where someone
> was accused of being a communist - 
>
> "You're not a communist, are you, friend Troubleshooter?"
>
> "Of course not, comrade Computer"

I have to ask. Was this a slip of the lip, or deliberate?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:08:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: You might not belive this...

In mail you write:

> Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
>> 
>> At 03:56 AM 5/11/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> >> In a message dated 99-05-11 03:01:16 EDT, you write:
>> >>
>> >> << Ruh rho, Shaggy.
>> >>
>> >>  Frankie
>> >>   >>
>> >>
>> >> I'm missing something here.  What does a greek letter, a dogs (?) name 
> and
>> >> something else have to with each other?
>> >
>> >I *think* you missed Saturday morning cartoons.  Scooby Doo's fave line 
> was
>> >'Rhu rho...'  Talked pretty good, for a dog...
>> 
>> Proto Vargr?
>> 
> Of _course_ not.  The Vargr were created _long_ before Milieu: SD. 
> Obviously a case of parallel development....

Want to bet? Scooby Doo was *originally* late 60s/early 70s. Traveller
wasn't until 1977.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 22:28:48 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Boston area headcount

I'm actually just west of 495, 50 Km due West of Boston.

The Space Vermin (our group) does have some members closer in:
Newton, Waltham, JP.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
          You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:31:36 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: "no one plays CT anymore" / sick (CT) ideas

>From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
>Subject: Re: ADMIN: Movie Stuff and Off Topic Posts
...
>Actually, I originally joined for Classic Traveller, but I realize no
>one plays that anymore, so I just glean what I can from the list (there
>are tons of good ideas here) and convert it.
>- -- 

  What do you mean "no one plays CT anymore"?  <grrr>

  And there are some sick ideas too...

  At TL F you can actually make asteroid-hulled freighters that are more
efficient than anything except a dispersed (open-frame) hull - and has
superior integral armour at no cash cost. Also good for people who can't
afford higher start up costs (-25%) but don't expect to need the ~800 Dt
payload of a typical 1 kt F-1. Amusingly, at yet higher TL's these units
become _more_ competitive as the lower power plant costs make the lower
payload % more acceptable.

F-1 1kt JumpExpressCo Liner Rock RZ-A811121-350000-55000-0  MCr 139.92  1kt TL F
        Cargo=528. Passengers=17. LHyd=110. EP=10. Agility=0. Low=0. Crew=8.

  Calculations are approximate - maintenance at 0.1%, wages, life support, 
and fuel are ignored below. Cargo charge is low, as some portion of revenue
is from passage charged at a similar premium.
 Unit  Mortgage/a.  basic rev./a.  Premium  Cargo charge
  F-1   MCr  9.36      MCr 31.08      -69%     > Cr   305
  F-1r  MCr  7.0       MCr 24.08      -70%     > Cr   305
        
        Steven Hudson

    ** JumpExpressCo - When Too Fast Is Never Enough!(tm) **

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:29:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

In mail you write:

> Since I was 10 in 1977, I didn't rush out to see Star Wars. I was however, 
> reading Heinlen, Niven, Clarke, Pournelle, and anyone else I could get my
> hands on. Traveller fit right into this "Golden Age of Science Fiction",
> no light sabres, no creatures living in vacuums, lasers were light beams and
> didn't make the noise you get when you hit a cable supporting a telephone
> pole with a piece of metal, and when ships exploded in space: they made no
> noise!
>
> I didn't see Star Wars until I was in my 20's, and was not surprised that
> what I had read about it was true: It did more damage to science fiction
> than any other movie before or since. (Now Bladerunner, Outlands? (Sean 
> Connery, Jupiter), 2001, ... they were SF movies!)

Outlands flunks due to the "explosive decompression" scenes. It
*doesn't* work that way.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:02:47 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller

Jimmy Simpson wrote:
> 
> At 04:32 PM 5/20/1999 -0400, J-Man wrote:
> 
> >My main character, "Lucas Trask", is a sword worlder as well.  :)
> Hmmm...and where might that be from?
> 
> Jimmy Simpson

Space Viking, by H. Beam Piper
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:05:46 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Boston area headcount

Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> I'm actually just west of 495, 50 Km due West of Boston.
> 
> The Space Vermin (our group) does have some members closer in:
> Newton, Waltham, JP.
> 
Cool!  We'll have to hook up sometime and do some gaming.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:09:59 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

What about moving your wormhole back n forth around a counter-rotating
pair of quantum strings at near C velocity?
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:36:07 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: You might not belive this...

In a message dated 99-05-20 22:34:10 EDT, you write:

<< > Of _course_ not.  The Vargr were created _long_ before Milieu: SD. 
 > Obviously a case of parallel development....
 
 Want to bet? Scooby Doo was *originally* late 60s/early 70s. Traveller
 wasn't until 1977. >>

The Vargr are preparing us for there advantual arivle on our planet, hmm I 
smell a near future campain here, or is that just the artychokes needing more 
water?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:41:12 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: _Brilliant Lances_

In a message dated 99-05-20 18:21:09 EDT, you write:

<< > How Detailed is the combat?
 
 There are 400 surface, and 400 volume hit areas for every ship.
 
 (1d20 broad areas, with 1d20 distinctions within--though most are
 1-10 hold, 11-15 fuel, 16-20 Lab kind of things)
  >>

WOW, how are the hits alocated?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:40:03 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: ADMIN:  List Changes a commin'

In a message dated 99-05-20 20:45:01 EDT, you write:

<< UPP-8D9B85 -- >>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:46:55 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Materials

Not long ago someone posted a list of building and construction
materials with associated prices. I can't find it again...could
whoever posted it tell me how I can locate a copy?
  

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #654
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 21 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 655



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Express
Re: _Brilliant Lances_
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
Re: Classic Traveller 
Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX
Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL
Skill Clusters
Re: : A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX
Re: Express
Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX
Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Shipping costs recap 
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Analog Aliens
Re: Brilliant Lances
more sick (CT) ideas
Re: _Brilliant Lances_
Re: _Brilliant Lances_
Re: Brilliant Lances
Re: _Brilliant Lances_
Re : Computer Technology
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D) 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:46:57 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Express

> ** JumpExpressCo - When Too Fast Is Never Enough!(tm) **

TARDIS Express--
When it absolutely has to be there before you sent it.
  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:39:05 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: _Brilliant Lances_

In a message dated 99-05-20 21:53:36 EDT, you write:

<< No, it ran smooth enough, and quite fast too. The problem is that the
 explanations in the rulebook are poorly written, and it requires jumping
 around too many pages to check everything. As well, the ship record sheets
 should have come pre-filled-out for the ships used in the scenarios.

xxxx
Where have I seen this before, oh Starfleet Battles, as detailed as it was it 
is my fealing that it got to the point were the extra details destroyed the 
game, as a war game, as a rpg it needed something else.
xxxx
 
 Shalom & I found that when we got to the third game we were playing at a
 fairly fast clip, to the stage where filling in the record sheets before
 the game was a significant portion of play time (which we solved by filling
 in a sheet for each ship type, and xeroxing). >>

Okay, just how detailed is the game?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:54:55 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

>>I very much doubt that either Blade Runner or Outland would have been made
>>without the success of Star Wars to pave the way. Before Star Wars, there
>>was very little SF being made on film. 2001 was a rare exception, and that
>>was in 1968, 10 years before Star Wars. What Star Wars did was to show
>>the powers-that-be in the movie industry that one could make money in SF
>>films, which was thought to be too small of a niche market beforehand.
>
>There were plenty of sci-fi films before Star Wars came along. You can take
>a peek at the internet movie database if you don't believe me
> http://www.imdb.com ).

Oh, I believe you. I *know* there were plenty of SF films before Star Wars.
But a large number of them were B-movies, and by 1970 they were a dying
breed. Sure, there was the odd "mainstream" SF film such as 2001 or
Silent Running, but the real explosion in SF filmmaking for the mainstream
theatrical releases came after Star Wars.

Restricting the IMDB's search engine to include only movies made in the 
USA and excluding anything made for television, in 1976, the year before 
Star Wars was released, there were 5 movies classed as SF. In 1978, the 
year after Star Wars, the number climbs to 13. In 1987, ten years after
Star Wars, there were 32. (In 1998, 39.) Going by decades, 1966-1976
had 105 (yes, I know that's an 11-year span). 1978-1988, 232.

>Much of the sci-fi films of the era (between the
>late 60s and the late 70s) dealt with apocalyptic themes, either what might
>happen after we blew ourselves up, or how we would get around to blowing
>ourselves up... some films were about what might happen if we didn't blow
>ourselves up but what might happen if we continued to become dehumanized.
>That genre was beginning to dry up by the time that Star Wars was made.
>Historically, a good number of sci-fi films either carried a message or
>conveyed some sort of social commentary.

Just for fun, I used IMDB's search engine to get a list of SF movies
from 1960 to 1970. Movies with messages or some sort of social commentary
include The Astro-Zombies (1969), Attack of the Giant Leeches (1960),
The Brain That Wouldn't Die (1962), The Beast of Yucca Flats (1961), and
Mars Needs Women (1966). 

Seriously, there were a lot of good SF films in that era. But for every 
Charly (1968, based on the classic SF story "Flowers for Algernon") or 
Fantastic Voyage (1966), there were dozens of films like Frankenstein 
Meets The Space Monster (1965) or Zontar The Thing From Venus (1966). 

Star Wars made SF on film acceptable and accessible to the mainstream
moviegoing audience, breaking it out of the genre.

>The good guys were really good[1] and the bad guys were really evil, unlike
>alot of the movies from that era.

I don't know. Though I haven't seen it, I'm sure that the title character
of Zontar The Thing From Venus wasn't the good guy...

>The popularity of Star Wars is a mixed blessing for sci-fi (and movies in
>general). While it paved the way for films like Blade Runner and a host of
>others, it also paved the way for stuff like Independence Day and
>Armageddon. Whiz bang special effects could be substituted for story, plot
>and character development...

If "90% of everything is crap", as someone once put it, then the other 10%
is worth watching. More SF films = more "crap", but also more good stuff
as well.

BTW, I myself have a personal movie-review website, with capsule reviews
of nearly 1,000 films, with a disproportionately large percentage of them
being SF films...
	http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn/movies/
if anyone is interested. 

Sorry to go off topic like that, but I couldn't let the original post of
this thread go unchallenged... :)

- -- g


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 00:13:40 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller 

> At 04:32 PM 5/20/1999 -0400, J-Man wrote:
> 
> >My main character, "Lucas Trask", is a sword worlder as well.  :)
> Hmmm...and where might that be from?

Straight outta H. Beam Piper's 'Space Viking'.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:26:00
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX

At 11:54 AM 5/20/99 -0400, you wrote:

>You guys do know that you can just mail-order the book directly from SJG,
>right?

Yes, but supporting your local game store is a Good Thing, since game
stores are how we get new people into this hobby.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 00:30:49 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL

At 07:11 PM 5/20/99 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>
>> IIRC, non-volatile memory in Traveller does not refer to storage
>> media such as hard drives, disks, CD-ROMS, etc.  The concept, as I
>> understand it, seems to indicate that the RAM of the system is
>> non-volatile.  In other words, you could remove the power from a
>> computer in the midst of processing a complex equation, then later
>> (much later, even) restore power to the system, and the computer
>> would pick right up where it left off, in mid-calculation.
>
>Congratulations. You described Magnetic Core memory. 
>
>However, unless the CPU *and* program* are designed for it, what you
>describe can't happen. You see, the *cpu* is not non-volatile. And it
>is what stores things like current program state, and the address that
>the program is currently processing.
>
>In fact, I don't think a non-volatile CPU is possible, or at the very
>least not *desirable*.
>

I was thinking about this too, but how about having the RESET be
different than the power. Then when my home experiences a power 
outage I don't reboot when I turn the computer on (and lose whatever
I was working on), I just resume where I left off.

Of course if this were not possible (at any tech level), a software
solution could be implemented similar to the clean/dirty flag on your
hard drive.
- -- 
Should've been dead on a Sunday morning
banging my head / no time for mourning
ain't got no time  -- Creed
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 00:37:35 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Skill Clusters

What happens when you roll on the Char Gen and you get something like 
Bussness, a skill cluster, do you then chose a sub skill or do you get 
level-0 in all skills (in that cluster)?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:31:26
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: : A plea for cinema restraint...

At 08:12 PM 5/20/99 -0400, you wrote:

>I have a good friend who's wife is a theater manager.  She got the movie in
>Monday and was required to put their two copies (two of the fourplex cinema
>showing it) which she spliced together all the reals.  She then had to
>preview the movies to make sure they were okay. She had her husband invite
>about twenty of us in for a sneak preview on Tuesday morning (a day ahead of
>release.)  No lines, no crowds and a day early, first time it ever happened
>to me.  The group that went chipped in and got them a gift certificate at a
>good restaraunt as token of our appreciation.

When Kirsten was still a manager at the Centurt Park Googleplex in Redwood
City, they held a similar viewing for Jurrasic Park.  The CP sits at the
edge of a slat water marsh, and the building attracts rodents.  Big ones.

Remember the scene where the lady paleobotanist finds the engineer's arm?
At that moment a huge rat decided to run down the wall and on to the arms
of one of the other managers.

I have never heard so loud a shriek in my life.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:48:06
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

At 07:38 AM 5/20/99 -0600, you wrote:

>I very much doubt that either Blade Runner or Outland would have been made
>without the success of Star Wars to pave the way. Before Star Wars, there
>was very little SF being made on film. 2001 was a rare exception, and that
>was in 1968, 10 years before Star Wars. 

Huh?  Here are a few films made between 2001:ASO and Star Wars

Planet of the Apes (and sequels) (1968-74)
Andromeda Strain (1971)
The Omega Man (1971)
Silent Running (1971)
Soylent Green (1973)
Dark Star (1973)
Westworld (1973)
Rollerball (1975)
Logan's Run (1976)
Wizards (1977)

I know I'm missing a few, but the early/mid seventies were a great time for
SF on film.

A tip o'the helmet to the Internet Movie Database:

http://www.imdb.com/





- -- 

Douglas E. Berry            dberry@hooked.net 
   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html   

"I'm just like anybody else, I want to be a non-conformist too." 
                                     -Lenny Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 00:46:39 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX

At 07:43 PM 5/20/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>>> Hooray! Just picked up "First In" last night.
>>>> I hope to post a review this weekend for your
>>>> amusement and flaming.
>>>
>>>Are there any good gaming stores in the Dallas Area.
>>>I'm stuck in Grapevine for a few more days and some
>>>good reading would be nice.
>>
>>You guys do know that you can just mail-order the book directly from
>>SJG, right?
>>
>
> Yes, but as I tell the other game company that I do mail order business 
>with, I prefer to support my local game store(s) whenever possible. Mail 
>Order is nice, but without the FLGS this industry will just be dust very 
>quickly...

Oh this is certainly true.  It's just that after a month of having some
book on "Special order" I get tired of waiting.  Of course the day after I
order it he gets a copy in....  

My post was mostly for people that seem to have chronic trouble obtaining
SJG products because they are in an area without good game stores (like
mine....).  It seems silly to drive several hours to a game store for
something you can mail order.  But if you are willing to do that to support
the industry, kudos to you.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 00:48:46 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Express

In a message dated 99-05-20 23:51:41 EDT, you write:

<< TARDIS Express--
 When it absolutely has to be there before you sent it. >>

I'd pay good money for something that could do that!
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 00:50:52 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX

In a message dated 99-05-21 00:30:27 EDT, you write:

<< Yes, but supporting your local game store is a Good Thing, since game
 stores are how we get new people into this hobby. >>

hypnotic sigestion is another way.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 00:52:52 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL

In a message dated 99-05-21 00:33:35 EDT, you write:

<< I was thinking about this too, but how about having the RESET be
 different than the power. Then when my home experiences a power 
 outage I don't reboot when I turn the computer on (and lose whatever
 I was working on), I just resume where I left off.

xxxx
What would be SO nice...
xxxx
 
 Of course if this were not possible (at any tech level), a software
 solution could be implemented similar to the clean/dirty flag on your
 hard drive. >>

what about a constant updating system for all open files?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:50:36
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

At 07:29 PM 5/20/99 PST, you wrote:

>Outlands flunks due to the "explosive decompression" scenes. It
>*doesn't* work that way.

Leonard, was this the *only* problem you had with High Noon on Io, err..
Outland(ish)?
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 22:05:56 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Shipping costs recap 

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Shipping costs recap 
>
>> Steven Hudson wrote:
...
>Pinky, I think I'm going to have to hurt you now...

  Hey! That was a misattribution! But you'll probably be unhappy with the
new shipping figures - I may have found a small glitch to have fun with...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 99 00:08:31 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

On 05/19/99 at 07:52 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:

>For 'regular' variables, I name like that, you have to, but in all my


>for i = 1 to 10
>	...
>end for

>constructs, I use i,j,k. quicker to type.

>Come to think about it, as Julian said, I think I've seen that
>regularly in textbooks for a number of different languages. 

Of course you have...who do you think wrote those textbooks?  Old programmers that started with Fortran. ;->

Eris,
    I have to try *very* hard not to use 2 digit years, too. ;->
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 01:13:05 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

In a message dated 99-05-21 01:01:39 EDT, you write:

<<  >Outlands flunks due to the "explosive decompression" scenes. It
 >*doesn't* work that way.
 
 Leonard, was this the *only* problem you had with High Noon on Io, err..
 Outland(ish)?
 >>

Whats wrong with them (the scenes)?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 01:14:24 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

In a message dated 99-05-20 22:34:00 EDT, you write:

<< Well, actually we are now fairly certain that wormhole based time
 travel won't worked. Someone (Stephen Hawking?) has shown that once
 there's a time difference between the ends, moving them close enough to
 travel even *microseconds* into the past will cause an effect similar
 to Hawking radiation in black holes. In this case instead of the event
 horizon causing the virtual particles to become real, it's the wormhole
 allowing them to go to a different time. And the energy output in
 *this* case has a positive feedback effect, such that the energy will
 cascade until the wormhole is destroyed.  >>

Shucks, no all we need is an energy eliminator, do you happen to have one?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 01:19:55 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Brilliant Lances

><< > How Detailed is the combat?
 >
 >There are 400 surface, and 400 volume hit areas for every ship.
 >
 >(1d20 broad areas, with 1d20 distinctions within--though most are
> 1-10 hold, 11-15 fuel, 16-20 Lab kind of things)
 > >>
>
>WOW, how are the hits alocated?
>

 During combat or contruction?

 Combat uses a weighted chart with about half of the surface locations 
listed. Which chart you roll on is determined by facing.

 Construction allocation is done by assigning enough spots to all surface 
features. The number of spots on the chart that, say, a large cargo hatch 
takes up is calculated by dividing the total surface area by 20 and then by 
20 again. This gives two numbers which represent the surface area of the 
primary chart locations and of any needed subdivisions.

 This may sound complex, but if you do ship design with any of the Traveller 
systems other than Book 2, then this part of TNE ship design is trivial...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:58:19 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: more sick (CT) ideas

  FWIW, there should be a (/range of) J# at which an asteroid-hulled
freighter can use drop tanks and be more efficient than a conventional-
hulled ship. As it happens rock hulls are only marginally worthwhile at
TL F for J-1, and are _bad_ at every other performance level.

 Unit  Mortgage/a.  basic rev./a.  Premium  Cargo charge
  F-1   MCr  9.36      MCr 31.08      -69%     > Cr   305
  F-1r  MCr  7.0       MCr 24.08      -70%     > Cr   305
  F-2   MCr 12.16      MCr 26.53      -54%     > Cr   460
  F-2r  MCr  9.80      MCr 19.53      -49%     > Cr   505
  F-3   MCr 16.21      MCr 21.66      -25%     > Cr   750
  F-4   MCr 19.01      MCr 17.11      >12%     > Cr 1,120
  F-5   MCr 22.62      MCr 12.46      >65%     > Cr 1,820
  F-6   MCr 25.66      MCr  8.12     >216%     > Cr 3,160

DROP TANKS - includes cost of _disposable_ tanks in operating cost (& mortgage):
 Unit  Ops. Cost/a.  basic rev./a.  Premium  Cargo charge
  F-3   MCr 26.71      MCr 32.16      -17%     > Cr   830
  F-3r  MCr 24.35      MCr 25.16       -3%     > Cr   970
  F-4   MCr 33.01      MCr 31.11       >6%     > Cr 1,060
  F-5   MCr 40.12      MCr 32.20      >25%     > Cr 1,250
  F-6   MCr 46.66      MCr 31.36      >49%     > Cr 1,490
  F-6r  MCr 44.36      MCr 24.36      >82%     > Cr 1,490

  OK - there isn't such a niche using disposable tanks; although they might
be close to metal-hulled drop tank using J1-2 ships it's hardly relevant as
those are much more expensive to operate than internal tankage ships unless
drop tanks are made effectively re-usable (an exceedingly bad idea, IMHO).

F-1 1kt JumpExpressCo Liner Rock RZ-A811121-350000-55000-0  MCr 139.92  1kt TL F
        Cargo=528. Passengers=17. LHyd=110. EP=10. Agility=0. Low=0. Crew=8.

F-2 1kt JumpExpressCo Freighter  MT-A421221-350000-55000-0  MCr 243.12  1kt TL F
        Cargo=598. Passengers=17. LHyd=220. EP=20. Agility=1. Low=0. Crew=8.

F-3 1kt JumpExpressCo Fast Liner FM-A431342-070000-75000-0  MCr 324.2  1kt TL F 
        Cargo=459. Passengers=17. LHyd=330. EP=30. Agility=1. Low=0. Crew=9

F-4 1kt JumpExpressCo Fast Liner FM-A441442-070000-75000-0  MCr 380.2  1kt TL F 
        Cargo=329. Passengers=17. LHyd=440. EP=40. Agility=1. Low=0. Crew=9

F-5 1kt JumpExpressCo Fast Liner XR-A451552-050000-85000-0  MCr 452.4  1kt TL F
        Cargo=196. Passengers=17. LHyd=550. EP=50. Agility=1. Low=0. Crew=10.

F6 1kt JumpExpress Express Liner XR-A461662-000000-80000-0  MCr 513.2  1kt TL F
        Cargo=72.  Passengers=17. LHyd=660. EP=60. Agility=1. Low=0. Crew=8.

  Steven Hudson

    ** JumpExpressCo - When Too Fast Is Never Enough!(tm) **

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 01:01:34 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: _Brilliant Lances_

 
> >>How Detailed is the combat?
> >
> >  Too (IMHO).
> 
> No, it ran smooth enough, and quite fast too. The problem is that the
> explanations in the rulebook are poorly written, and it requires jumping

As much as I liked BL, I got to think it was too detailed in ways it
shouldn't be. Facing was important in damage resolution and fire,
for example, but i dont think it should have been given 30minute
turns--I ended up liking the notion of "Batteries Bearing" better.

Also, from a scaling standpoint it was odd that a scout ship had 400
surface hit locations, but so would a destroyer 10 times the size.
But still fun.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 01:04:45 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: _Brilliant Lances_

 
>  There are 400 surface, and 400 volume hit areas for every ship.
>  
>  (1d20 broad areas, with 1d20 distinctions within--though most are
>  1-10 hold, 11-15 fuel, 16-20 Lab kind of things)
>   >>
> 
> WOW, how are the hits alocated?


Um, 

>  (1d20 broad areas, with 1d20 distinctions within--though most are
>  1-10 hold, 11-15 fuel, 16-20 Lab kind of things)
>   >>

There are 1d20 big areas, so you roll to hit surface area 2 say,
then roll a d20 to see what part of that area you hit. The latter
roll looks like my example above (with different systems in the
different areas. if there is noting on the surface you see if it can
penetrate and then do damage inside.

- -merrick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 03:22:40 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Brilliant Lances

In a message dated 99-05-21 01:29:34 EDT, you write:

<<  During combat or contruction?
 
  Combat uses a weighted chart with about half of the surface locations 
 listed. Which chart you roll on is determined by facing.
 
  Construction allocation is done by assigning enough spots to all surface 
 features. The number of spots on the chart that, say, a large cargo hatch 
 takes up is calculated by dividing the total surface area by 20 and then by 
 20 again. This gives two numbers which represent the surface area of the 
 primary chart locations and of any needed subdivisions.
 
  This may sound complex, but if you do ship design with any of the Traveller 
 systems other than Book 2, then this part of TNE ship design is trivial... >>

Now I think I may just want Brilliant Lances and FF&S(TNE)
- -STephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 03:24:17 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: _Brilliant Lances_

In a message dated 99-05-21 03:05:31 EDT, you write:

<< Um, 
 
 >  (1d20 broad areas, with 1d20 distinctions within--though most are
 >  1-10 hold, 11-15 fuel, 16-20 Lab kind of things)
 >   >>
 
 There are 1d20 big areas, so you roll to hit surface area 2 say,
 then roll a d20 to see what part of that area you hit. The latter
 roll looks like my example above (with different systems in the
 different areas. if there is noting on the surface you see if it can
 penetrate and then do damage inside. >>

Must have missed that part.  Thanks, is anyone working on something simular 
for T4?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 07:55:49 "GMT"
From: "robocon@ozemail.com.au" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Computer Technology

An intriguing thread.
Some numbers to consider :-
Your desktop computer has perhaps 10 million linear
switching elements (transistors).
The human brain has 10^11 neurones, each with an average of
1000 synapses. Some neurones in the visual cortex synapse
to 10000-50000 other neurons!

Charles P. : Neurons are trinary or ternary devices (no
impulse, excitatory "+1" and inhibitory "-1" potentials). The 
biology is fascinating, but not in the immediate sphere
of discourse of the TML.


If we rate the desktop machine as "1", and increase
computer complexity (by switching element count) by
10X per Tech Level, we get computers equivalent in
complexity to human brains by TL 14.
This rough calculation ignores the several orders of magnitude increase
in the number of possible paths an impulse could
take through our synaptic network vs. the Wintel system.

<random musing>
I'd go for a 10X increase in computing power per Tech
Level. This tracks back pretty well to the first
machines (TL 5 machines ~1/1000 the capacity of TL 8)..
and does the least damage to canon.
</random musing>

Looking for a system to simplify rating computers and robot brains, I remain

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
[The neuron count figures are the ones being bandied
about in my current professional reading].

"Define and Conquer" - a un-named Logical Positivist

__________________________________________________________
Message sent by MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 04:07:20 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D) 

> In mail you write:
> 
> > No great Traveller ones, but we had a Paranoia scenario where someone
> > was accused of being a communist - 
> >
> > "You're not a communist, are you, friend Troubleshooter?"
> >
> > "Of course not, comrade Computer"
> 
> I have to ask. Was this a slip of the lip, or deliberate?

Definitely sounds like a great scene, though.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #655
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 21 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 656



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Stupid RPG Tricks (Top Secret) 
Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)
Re: Macromolecules
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL
Re: Fun things to do with a field phone
Re: Grounding a starship
Re: Spetznaz
Re: Computer Technology
FLGS in Harvard area
Re: Boston area headcount
Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)
re: Macromolecules
Classic Traveller
re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: _Brilliant Lances_
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Skill Clusters
re: no one plays CT anymore
Vilani Accent
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
Re: Brilliant Lances
Re: no one plays CT anymore

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 02:56:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Stupid RPG Tricks (Top Secret) 

Never had a Traveller one but there was one in a Top Secret 
game, years ago.

Two players arrive in middle eastern country to spy on a 
suspected terrorist. At the airport, the two of them 
(who are brothers in real life so knew each other better 
than most) were asked first searched then asked some simple 
questions by the custom agent. 

"Americans, eh? Are you here as tourists?"

Brother one: "Yes."  And brother two: "No"

They look at each other across the gaming table and try 
again.

Brother One: "No." And brother two: "Yes."

Perfectly timed and completely simultainious both times.

Customs agent: "I think you had best come with me. Guards!"

Terry






_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:58:48 +1200
From: "Mike Smith" <mjsmith@staff.salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

Hey hey hey hey hey!

Us 'old fogies' (quarter-century-old's) learned to program real code in
Assembler, ditched Pascal 'cause the 'puter teachers thought it was a good
idea to learn it, and became way too familiar with rogue pointers...  At
least C lets you stuff it up worse, quicker :)

> >>C++ is the improved version of C
> >No, Assembly is the improved version of C.
> >C++ is just C with Object Oriented support kludged in. :-)
> Ah, C++. A language with all the power of assembly - and all the
> readability of assembly ;>

Thats rough.  OOS is another acronym for occupational overuse syndrome, ya
know.  Its also the best thing that ever happened to C, apart from being
born from A and B...  Anyone actually *remember* Kerningham and Richie? :P

ObTrav[ish]:  The scene in star trek [something-or-other] where Scottie
picks up a mouse and starts trying to chat to it - kind-of makes the
'antique computer' skill more useful, huh?  Would you be able to plug a TL15
optical-thingy into a TL9 +/- 5v, +/- 12v box?

Mike.

*the difference between theory and practice is smaller in theory than in
practice* - unknown

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 01:24:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)

In mail you write:

> One possible technology that might fit what you are thinking of is
> Magnetic Domain Memory (at least that is the name that sticks in my
> memory).  It is also called "bubble memory."  This was supposed to be
> the next big memory wave in the early 80s, but never came about for some
> reason.  Probably the sticking point was that it was significantly more
> expensive, and the initial demand wasn't high enough to get
> manufacturing streamlined and large scale.  I understand that a limited
> amount is still made for some military applications, but haven't heard
> specific units it might be in.  Bubble memory is also non-volotile, and
> could be turned off and turned back on at the exact same point in a
> calculation (no hard drive needed).

I have an Intel "experimentors kit" for Bubble Memory. It has a 256k
(byte) module. It's a bout the size of a pack of cigarettes and is
*heavy* (several *ounces*). It's also slower than even an *old* hard
drive.

Mag Bubble is just fast *sequential* storage medium.

However, as I posted a wek or so back, they now exploring other types
of magnetic memory that *are* workable on microchips.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 01:29:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Macromolecules

In mail you write:

> With the talk of nanotechnology, I got to thinking about going in the other
> direction, bigger molecules.  Theoretically, would it be possible to do any
> or all of the below:
>
> 1.  Create a single molecule that is visible to the naked eye

These already exist. They are called "crystals". I've handled a single
molecule of silicon that was 6 feet long and a couple of inches thick!

> 2.  Create said molecule so that its physical shape would be useable in
> some facet of industrial society, ie. a hull plate that would use
> adheasives or fasteners to secure it?

See the above.

> 3.  What would the upper limit on size be?  Could a complete vehicle shell
> be constructed out of one molecule with the aid of nanotech?

Single molecules aren't as "special" as many SF stories have led us to
believe. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 03:50:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

In mail you write:

> At 07:29 PM 5/20/99 PST, you wrote:
>
>>Outlands flunks due to the "explosive decompression" scenes. It
>>*doesn't* work that way.
>
> Leonard, was this the *only* problem you had with High Noon on Io, err..
> Outland(ish)?

It's the one I still remember. I'm sure the plot was full of the usual
holes. But the decompression scenes were *painfully* wrong.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 03:51:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 99-05-21 00:33:35 EDT, you write:
>
> << I was thinking about this too, but how about having the RESET be
>  different than the power. Then when my home experiences a power 
>  outage I don't reboot when I turn the computer on (and lose whatever
>  I was working on), I just resume where I left off.
>
> xxxx
> What would be SO nice...
> xxxx
>  
>  Of course if this were not possible (at any tech level), a software
>  solution could be implemented similar to the clean/dirty flag on your
>  hard drive. >>
>
> what about a constant updating system for all open files?

1985: TRS-80 Model 100 (first practical laptop)

The 100 could be turned off in the middle of a program and would resume
when you powered it back up. It also had an autoshutdown feature based
on time & system inactivity. As well as the ability for a program to
turn off the system.

The Model 200 a year or two later had the ability to not only shutdown
under program control, but also to set a time to restart! 

Of course, these aren't "true" power downs. The RAM and CPU state were
preserve by *very* low power "standby" modes. This used about twice the
power of being *truly* off (which still had power applied to the RAM,
as it used a RAM based file system). 

But the system would run for 8-20 hours on 4 AA batteries. It'd
maintain everything on "standby" for several *months*, and maintain
files in the "off" state for at least a year. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 03:59:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fun things to do with a field phone

In mail you write:

> G'day all,
>
> On 20/5/99 Stephen said :
>
>>What is the deal with the field phone and commo wire?
>
> It's one of the fun tricks you can play on recruits.  Get them to hold down
> the bit that the phone sits in (cradle ??) while spinning the handle on the
> side to power the thing.  Ho ho ho.

About 60-90 volts of fun. 

I happen to own a field phone (and if the guy I loaned it too doesn't
return it soon, I may hook him up to it).

> ObTrav : One would imagine in an era of "wonder-drugs" and other neato
> stuff, the idea of gaining info from someone by force may have fallen by
> the wayside ?

The trouble is, it's *far* too easy to "induce" allergies to drugs. So
anybody with *good* secrets will go into shock and die if you try truth
drugs on them.

Then you get into the realm of "idiosyncratic drug reactions". A good
example being Miles Vorkosigan's reaction to fast-penta. :-)

For those not familar with the books, when Miles gets dosed with
fast=penta instead of being forced to answer truthfully, he babbles.
Extensively. But not about what you asked him. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 04:04:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Grounding a starship

In mail you write:

>>ObTrav: Although hi-TL ships usually don't have to worry about
>>damage like this, there *are* critters on various planets which
>>can do incredible damage once onboard. One of the old JTAS's
>>has a creature feature (I'm a poet and didn't know it :) on
>>an eel/worm which digests various light metals, including
>>shipboard circuitry.
>
> There are already critters like this in use in the mining industry.  Some
> ores are extremely difficult to recover the desired mineral from (gold from
> arsenopyrites spring to mind).  There has been a fair bit of work done with
> various greeblies in an attempt to get them to eat and remove the gangue
> minerals.  Such an organism could cause huge amounts of damage to a ship.
> Te he he he ....

And they are also being developed to leach dangerous metals from
tailings piles so as to prevent groundwater contamination.

So if a ship lands near the wrong *old* mining site, leftover "cleanup"
bacteria could be a real problem. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 01:33:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Spetznaz

In mail you write:

>
>> <<      Find a good book on the Spetsnaz for lessons in field questioning.
>>  Truely frightening stuff. >>
>
> (while questioning a captured Soviet commando)
> "SPETZNAZ?! Sounds like a bathroom cleanser!"
>   --'Adventure Joe' Hunter, DIAMOND OF DOOM

If you are going to have an NPC do the questioning "off camera", have
him ask to be left along with the prisoner (who shouls be tied to a
chair or table). As the door is closing, tell the PCs that he's taking
what looks to be an ordinary teaspoon (ie small spoon for use at the
table *not* a measuring spoon) from a pocket. And mention that the
prisoner looks scared out of his wits when he sees the spoon.

After the door closes, have the sound of the NPC talking quietly (ie
you can't understand anything he says). And lots of *loud* pleading
from the prisoner. Then more quiet talk. Finally, have *loud* screams
from the prisoner, followed by sobbing. 

The prisoner *should* talk about this point, unless he's a real hard
case. If not, go for more screams. At this point it's unlikely he'll
talk. But any *other* prisoners in the room are likely to spill their
guts. 

Anybody care to guess what the NPC did? No fair replying if you've read
the Horseclans book where Milo describes this trick.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:27:34 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

>>There's a reason the Turing universal machine is called that, it's because
>>_any_ machine, can be desribed by it, irrespective of how it is
constructed.
>
>Surely, a Turing Machine can describe an analogue computer; but an
>analogue computer need not be able to describe a Turing Machine.

Of course.

Any _particular_ Turing machine is highly unlikely to be a universal Turing
machine, which is a theoretical construct  with the word "infinite" in it in
at least one place.

For those people who like thinking about these things, here's a question I
got on a post graduate exam paper, as near as I can remember it. I remember
it because I was one of the few to get it exactly right, which surprised me
a bit.

Consider four machines.

1 has both finite tape size and finite number of states
2. has an infinte number of states, but a finite tape.
3. has a finite number of states but at an infinte tape size
4. has both infinite tape and infinite states.

List the machines in order of ability and state why


Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:03:22 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: FLGS in Harvard area

I'm visiting Harvard for a few days. Do any of you know of any good
FLGS in the Harvard area?


Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 08:03:53 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Boston area headcount

I'm in Waltham real close to the Rt.2 and 128 intersection.  There are four
or five others....(Pete, Jo?) with Pete running a game of his own.

Thom Harris

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 10:34 PM
Subject: Boston area headcount

>I'm actually just west of 495, 50 Km due West of Boston.
>
>The Space Vermin (our group) does have some members closer in:
>Newton, Waltham, JP.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>eclipse@ultranet.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 08:05:43 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> > One possible technology that might fit what you are thinking of is
> > Magnetic Domain Memory (at least that is the name that sticks in my
> > memory).  It is also called "bubble memory."  This was supposed to be
> > the next big memory wave in the early 80s, but never came about for some
> > reason.  Probably the sticking point was that it was significantly more
> > expensive, and the initial demand wasn't high enough to get
> > manufacturing streamlined and large scale.  I understand that a limited
> > amount is still made for some military applications, but haven't heard
> > specific units it might be in.  Bubble memory is also non-volotile, and
> > could be turned off and turned back on at the exact same point in a
> > calculation (no hard drive needed).
>
> I have an Intel "experimentors kit" for Bubble Memory. It has a 256k
> (byte) module. It's a bout the size of a pack of cigarettes and is
> *heavy* (several *ounces*). It's also slower than even an *old* hard
> drive.
>
> Mag Bubble is just fast *sequential* storage medium.
>
> However, as I posted a wek or so back, they now exploring other types
> of magnetic memory that *are* workable on microchips.

Well when you concider the vast size of Traveller computers compared to their
computing power, that size problem makes sense.  If, for some reason, you
*MUST* have absolutely non-volatile memory and battery back up isn't good
enough, then you use the bulky, slow and expensive non-volatile stuff.  But if
you can afford to have some down time, like say in a flight computer, the
cheaper, less bulky stuff can be used.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 08:53:57 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Macromolecules

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yes you
_can_ make starship hulls from bonded superdense all in one piece.  The
problem then arises: what do you do when you have to access something from the
outside? Do you dissolve the entire hul? Cut holes in it and and re-weld them
somehow, Or do you build the thing out of separate fastened sections so you
can get at stuff 60 years down the line when you have to replace the Jump Drive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You do what Niven did. Build the invulnerable hull with an access hatch
hole and a hole for the power feed and control feed runs. Put everything
but a life support package - drives, cargo, *everything* - on modules
outside the invulnerable hull. The hull's only job is to protect the
passengers, remember.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:05:42 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Classic Traveller

Jory Earl writes:
"Actually, I originally joined for Classic Traveller, but I 
realize no one plays that anymore, so I just glean what I 
can from the list (there are tons of good ideas here) and 
convert it."

	I guess I'm "no one" since I continue to stubbornly
	play good ol' Classic Traveller. I consider anything
	after the 3 LBB's to be optional ideas, and I mostly
	mine the TML for more such ideas. Keep the faith!

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:16:05 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

Charles Prevatter wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The first virus was the suicider stain.  The vampires are a group of
different strains.  Suiciders do not last long.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It's unclear how many "strains" were in the original transmission.
Remember, as much data as possible was beamed over the the
flagship - it could well have included primitive suicider strains, more
advanced vampire strains, even strains that had evolved beyond the
knowledge of the original researchers. Everything from images of 
original Cymbeline predator chips to the later, weapons-grade variants
could have been in those data files.

The suicider strains would have had some of the earliest and most
evident manifestations - they are the simplest strains, and thus 
probably reassemble and run themselves sooner than other strains
will. 

Considering the mutation rate of the strains, it's even possible that all
forms of Virus came from one suicider strain - it errored out to copy
itself repeatedly instead of copy once then suicide, some of the copies
evolved as they were rebuilding themselves in other computers.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 06:20:54
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: _Brilliant Lances_

At 01:01 AM 5/21/99 -0600, you wrote:

>Also, from a scaling standpoint it was odd that a scout ship had 400
>surface hit locations, but so would a destroyer 10 times the size.
>But still fun.

Except that the scout would probably have some survace target on every
square meter, while the destroyer would have streches of bare armor that
could take a hit without losing some vital antenna.

That's one of the things I liked about BL, you can scrub off surface
features and win a fight without ever penetrating the enemy armor belt.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 06:24:09
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

At 01:13 AM 5/21/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 99-05-21 01:01:39 EDT, you write:
>
><<  >Outlands flunks due to the "explosive decompression" scenes. It
> >*doesn't* work that way.
> 
> Leonard, was this the *only* problem you had with High Noon on Io, err..
> Outland(ish)?
> >>
>
>Whats wrong with them (the scenes)?

People don't explode in vacuum.  If you have a lung full of air, you might
rupture your lungs when the otside pressure drops to zero, but not bursting
eyeballs, etc., as shown in Outland.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 06:26:22
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Skill Clusters

At 12:37 AM 5/21/99 EDT, you wrote:
>What happens when you roll on the Char Gen and you get something like 
>Bussness, a skill cluster, do you then chose a sub skill or do you get 
>level-0 in all skills (in that cluster)?

Choose one skill out of the cluster.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:28:14 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: no one plays CT anymore

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  At TL F you can actually make asteroid-hulled freighters that are more
efficient than anything except a dispersed (open-frame) hull - and has
superior integral armour at no cash cost. Also good for people who can't
afford higher start up costs (-25%) but don't expect to need the ~800 Dt
payload of a typical 1 kt F-1. Amusingly, at yet higher TL's these units
become _more_ competitive as the lower power plant costs make the lower
payload % more acceptable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I kind of like asteroid ships - must be those Saturday mornings wasted
watching _Jason of Star Command_ and _Space Academy_(?). :-)

IMTU, I don't allow a class discount on asteroid hulls. Each rock has
different centers of gravity, fracture lines, overall shape, etc., so it
didn't seem appropriate that mass-production techniques would apply
as written. In some ways, each asteroid ship must be custom made.

I don't think this would break the cost savings Steven is talking about
though.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 08:36:43 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Vilani Accent

Greetings, Fellow Travellers,

Next wednesday, my gaming group will begin their actual sojourn to 
Barnard's Star, arriving in-system and encountering the Vilani for 
the very first time.  :)

As a referee who likes to be prepared, I wanted to ask the TML what 
their thoughts of the sound of a Vilani accent might be.  I try to do 
different voices and mannerisms for major NPCs; I think it adds to 
the distinction of the characters for the PCs.  (_The Phantom Menace_ 
has some good examples of this.  The Trade Federation aliens sound 
like American caricatures of Hispanic accents, and Jar Jar Binks 
reminds me of a combination of a bad Jamaican accent and a child 
learning to read by pronouncing all vowels as long vowels, using 
wrong tenses, etc.)

I understand that Old High Vilani has some similarities in sound and 
sentence structure to ancient Sumerian.  Since I can't find a 
language tape on Ancient Sumerian, does anyone have any suggestions 
of an accent and/or speech pattern I could emulate for the Vilani?

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

Keep On Travellin',
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:58:37 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint


>Star Wars is better pigeonholed as Science Fantasy, but stating that it
>was the 'death' of Science Fiction films is a load of hogwash. It didn't
>do that any more than Apocalypse Now killed the heroic War Movie genre,
>even though popular film _still_ resonates mightily with the tone and
>imagery that Apocalypse set, much as Star Wars did for SF film.


1.) I never said that Star Wars was the death of sci-fi films. I merely said
it's a mixed blessing... for *all* films, not just science-fiction. Story
and character development are rare animals these days, and often the bigger
the SFX budget, the less we see of those beasts.

2.) The difference between science-fiction and science-fantasy is an
academic one, at best. It's all fiction, and it's all fantasy.

ObTrav: What is the face of science-fiction like in the Imperium? Where do
Imperials see themselves in 10, 20, 50, 100 or 200 years? What social trends
are there that show up in their science-fiction? Where do they see their
technology a few years down the line? Do they have quasi-modern "conspiracy
thrillers" and the like?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 07:21:46 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Brilliant Lances

Construction allocation is done by assigning enough spots to all surface
>features. The number of spots on the chart that, say, a large cargo hatch
>takes up is calculated by dividing the total surface area by 20 and then by
>20 again. This gives two numbers which represent the surface area of the
>primary chart locations and of any needed subdivisions.

>This may sound complex, but if you do ship design with any of the Traveller
>systems other than Book 2, then this part of TNE ship design is trivial...

ALthough "custom hit charts for each ship" is a cute idea, it was a painful
step in the design process - you can write a spreadsheet to automate
everything else in the design, but not the hit chart (at least not unless
you're as good as Andrew Akins, and even he hasn't done it yet.)

Nice things about BL: an interesting variant on vector movement (somewhat
simpler than Mayday, but made complex again by tracking ship facing as
well as movement direction.) Tracking ship facing makes for more tactical
flavour in combats with short-ranged weapons. Semi-reasonable sensor rules.

Bad things: maybe a hair too complex in resolving damage (you had to look
at a bizzare table to convert the damage rating of your weapon into a
number of "minor" or "major" hits - rating the weapons directly on this
scale would have speeded things up.) Badly laid-out ship record sheets.
Classic GDW problem with using Really Big Counters and REally Big Hexes
so that the map is physically huge but game-scale undersized (as a
result the sensor rules don't matter for military ships, which can detect
each other past the edge of the map.)

Still, overall, a very nice game. Recommended for campaings with lots of
space combat. With a little tweaking you can split ship management up
(seperate pilot and gunnery officer and sensor officer and maybe captain)
to give a party of PCs something to do.

Bruce
Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:34:07 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: no one plays CT anymore

In a message dated 5/21/99 6:39:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU writes:

<< I kind of like asteroid ships - must be those Saturday mornings wasted
 watching _Jason of Star Command_ and _Space Academy_(?). :-)
 
 IMTU, I don't allow a class discount on asteroid hulls. Each rock has
 different centers of gravity, fracture lines, overall shape, etc., so it
 didn't seem appropriate that mass-production techniques would apply
 as written. In some ways, each asteroid ship must be custom made.
 
 I don't think this would break the cost savings Steven is talking about
 though.
  >>

I always loved Rock and Pebble from Adventure to Zhodane. I would rather have 
Rock for a PC ship than a scout/courier...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #656
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Friday, May 21 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 657



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Macromolecules
Re: During the Collapse
First In/Dallas info
Re: Spetznaz
Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX (BUY it in shops, not direct)
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Artists' Brands: Plasma Swords
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Brilliant Lances
TNE running commentary...
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Darrian Artists: MT Chargen (long)
Traveller Webring
RE: Traveller Webring
Darrian Artists Vs The Irklansa
Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL) 
Re: no one plays CT anymore 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 00:41:22 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: Macromolecules

G'day,

On 20/5/99 Bruce Johnson said:

>> 1.  Create a single molecule that is visible to the naked eye
>
>Yes...they're called diamonds. Also synthetic rubies, sapphires, etc. Nylon
>monofilament is a monomolecular structure.

Umm, actually any naturally occurring mineral can be a single crystal.
There have been single crystals of quartz (SiO2) found up to one metre in
length.  Many synthetic materials can also be grown into a single crystal.
Some turbine blades, IIRC, have been grown out of a single crystal to add
malleability and strength to the material, as well as lowering the
brittleness.

>> 2.  Create said molecule so that its physical shape would be useable in
>> some facet of industrial society, ie. a hull plate that would use
>> adheasives or fasteners to secure it?
>
>Yes, they're using synthetic gems in all sorts of industrial applications.
>Nylon monofilament is used in a host of applications.

Due to nylon being one long polymer chain.

>> 3.  What would the upper limit on size be?  Could a complete vehicle shell
>> be constructed out of one molecule with the aid of nanotech?
>
>Actually, I know where you're leading, to Niven's General Products Monohulls.
>
>The problem is, even if you did make a gigantic monomolecular polymer
mass, it
>would not be much stronger, if at all, than conventional polymers of the same
>mass. Molecular bonds can be strong on a _molecular_ scale, but on a macro
>scale they're still pretty weak.

*snipped*

>Niven Sinclair monofilament, and GP Monohulls have their bonds artificially
>strengthened, somehow, and so are equivalent to bonded superdense. Yes you
>_can_ make starship hulls from bonded superdense all in one piece.  The
>problem then arises: what do you do when you have to access something from
the
>outside? Do you dissolve the entire hul? Cut holes in it and and re-weld them
>somehow, Or do you build the thing out of separate fastened sections so you
>can get at stuff 60 years down the line when you have to replace the Jump
Drive.

Part of the problem would also be actually growing the things.  Most of the
larger crystals made in an artificial environment (lab, factory, etc) have
to be cooled at exactly the right rate for them to grow.  While I can
forsee advances in cooling technology and mass production/industrialisation
that would possibly allow this, the laws that govern the production of
metals/polymers are fairly well set in stone.

Cutting holes in the structure would also make it inherently weaker.  Given
the outward pressure on any hull in space, cutting square holes without any
form of reinforcement is just asking for disaster.  Witness the Comet
disasters in the 60's (???) when square window holes resulted in fractures
and ultimately the loss of several aircraft.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 00:41:39 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: During the Collapse

G'day,

On 20/5/99, Gray said :

*big snip*

>Think about it carefully, you've got no power, how many things do you
>rely on that use power?
>
>Could you make power?  How?
>
>Could you aquire food?  How about perserve it?
>
>What would you consider the bare essentials for survival?  The clothes
>on your back?  The clothes in your closet?  A gun?  A knife?
>
>How long could you survive on a weeks rations?  How would you build
>shelter?  Keep warm?  Could you start a fire with the contents of your
>pockets?  What about in two months when your lighter runs out of fuel,
>what would you do then?
>
>Think about it and we're only TL8, now imagine falling from TL15.  Look
>at the contents of your pockets.  Key's flat little pieces of metal yet
>we're totally screwed with out them, imagine if everything your life
>depended on suddenly stopped working.  What would happen then?

Sounds like any number of TW:2000 games .....

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:48:03 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: First In/Dallas info

As of last night at the Game Chest, my gaming group and I bought 
the last two First In books on the shelf ... and the last Who's Who.  
You may want to call there to ensure they have some before 
dropping in.  Sorry :)

Looking at the book:

I really, really like the cover art.  I don't know why I like it so much, 
but I do.  Good Job Mr. Chaffee.

Looking through the book:

I find it well organized.  I have only spent about an hour reading it 
(up to the system creation areas) but I didn't find any typos (which 
really don't bother me all that much anyway).  It seemed to be well 
written and the art was just enough to add depth to the experience.  
This book is a welcome addition to my rapidly expanding GT library.

Thanks all who contributed to make it a success.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 11:02:19 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Spetznaz

Leonard Erickson writes:
<snipped>
"Anybody care to guess what the NPC did? No fair replying 
if you've read the Horseclans book where Milo describes 
this trick."

	A number of things come to mind, but the most obvious
	would be to scoop out an eye. You don't need fancy
	equipment to inflict suffering, just a little
	depravity ;->

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:41:02 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX (BUY it in shops, not direct)

>>Are there any good gaming stores in the Dallas Area.
>>I'm stuck in Grapevine for a few more days and some
>>good reading would be nice.
>
>You guys do know that you can just mail-order the book directly from SJG,
>right?
Yes, but to increase the overall visibility / prerformance of the GT-Line
we need to ensure that the SHOPS carry the books
If we all go and direct order, the shops will sell less, order less, and
so, less people 
will be exposed to the books. Classic death-spiral.
Which is why i am still willing to wait for the shipment to the stores in
Germany to arrive.
(Aliens 1 being the latest in the stores over here)
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:43:06 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

>People don't explode in vacuum.  If you have a lung full of air, you might
>rupture your lungs when the otside pressure drops to zero, but not bursting
>eyeballs, etc., as shown in Outland.
But when the movie was made, most people believed vacuum would do just that.
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:19:44 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Artists' Brands: Plasma Swords

The Plasma Sword (AKA The Artist's Brand)
*** System: MegaTraveller ***

The Artist's Brand is a TL16 personal melee weapon based off of the
personal military applications of pre-Maghiz Darrian Plasma Art.
Used by a reclusive Darrian order of psionic martial artists, the 
Artist's Brand initially appears as a silver cylinder approximately 
0.3 to 0.4 meters in length (12"-16"), with a black padded grip along 
the lower half of the cylinder.  An impellor disk caps the upper end 
of the cylinder, and a number of configurable controls exist on one 
side of the cylinder, between the grip and the impellor disk. 
Artist's Brands usually possess a D-ring or similar connection at the 
lower base of the cylinder, to enable the weapon to be carried from a 
belt or baldric.

When activated, the impellor disk projects a brand of plasma
approximately a meter (3' 4") in length, which is held in check by
gravitic fields generated from the impellor plate as well.  Close
proximity to the brand's "edge" produces a feeling of heat. 
Actually breaking the brand's surface exposes the obstruction to the
intense heat and destructive force of the plasma contained within
the gravitic fields.

While the Artist's Brand makes a highly effective personal weapon,
the configurable controls allows for the user to adjust the overall
length of the Brand, making it an effective tool at times.  Due to
its high penetration, the Brand can, over time, be used to cut
through the interior bulkheads of a starship, although the superior
armor of a starship's external hull would take longer to penetrate. 

The average Brand can remain active for up to an hour, and requires 
four hours of recharging from an external power source (using a 
recharger pack) to become fully charged again.

Artist's Brands are very hard to find, as the secrets of their 
construction belong to members of the Darrian Order of Artists, and 
is passed down only to trained members of the Order.  As Artists 
consider it a grave dishonor to the Order and to themselves to allow 
a non-believer to possess a Brand, they will often take great risks 
to retrieve or destroy a Brand in the hands of a non-believer, and 
extend great honor to one who returns the Brand of a fallen comrade. 
 While rare, Brands can occassionally be found on the black market, 
starting at ten times the value listed below, and are sought after by 
exotic weapon collectors for their rarity and efficiency.

The use of the Brand in combat requires the Sabre skill, which should 
be considered part of the Blade Combat cascade skill group.  Only 
Artists with a Sabre skill of 3 or greater are taught how to 
construct a Brand.  Until then, an Artist must depend on his/her 
Master for a Brand.

To construct a Brand from raw components:
Difficult, Gravitics, Mechanics, 1 day (fateful, hazardous)
Referee:  The character should have a Sabre skill of 3+, or increase 
the difficulty one level.  The use of components of TL15 or less 
increases the difficulty by one per TL drop.  This task is effected 
normally by adverse work conditions, inappropriate parts, etc.  If 
unsuccessful, the amount of damage determined from failure will be 
the amount of damage inflicted when first activated, as the Brand 
discharges and melts the interior of the weapon into useless slag.

To construct a Brand Recharger from raw components:
Routine, Gravitics, Mechanics, 1 hour (fateful, hazardous)
Referee:  The character should have a Sabre skill of 3+, or increase
the difficulty one level.  The use of components of TL15 or less
increases the difficulty by one per TL drop.  This task is effected
normally by adverse work conditions, inappropriate parts, etc.  If
unsuccessful, the amount of damage determined from failure will be the
amount of damage inflicted when the Recharger is first activated, as 
it causes the Brand to discharge and melts the interior of the weapon 
into useless slag.

Combat Statistics:
Plasma Sword:  Penetration 15, Damage 4, Block 2

(TML Statistics:  Penetration 20, Damage 3, Block 2.  I prefer the 
lower pen and higher damage, since interior bulkheads are AV30, while 
external hulls are AV40, and I wanted it harder to cut through the 
outside of a ship than an interior bulkhead.)

Equipment Statistics:

Plasma Sword:  TL 16, Mass 2.5 kg, Volume ~1.2 L, Cr 30,000
Plasma Sword Recharger:  TL 16, Mass 2.0 kg, Volume 1.0 L, Cr 1,000

[Disclaimer:  Anyone is allowed to use the information herein for 
campaigns, etc.  The only two things I ask are: 1) you have fun with 
it, and 2) if you use the concept of the Darrian Artists in a 
publication or on a website, I just want an honorable mention. 
Thanks.]

Enjoy,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 11:23:16 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, May 21, 1999 9:39 AM


>At 01:13 AM 5/21/99 EDT, you wrote:
>>In a message dated 99-05-21 01:01:39 EDT, you write:
>>
>><<  >Outlands flunks due to the "explosive decompression" scenes. It
>> >*doesn't* work that way.
>>
>> Leonard, was this the *only* problem you had with High Noon on Io, err..
>> Outland(ish)?
>> >>
>>
>>Whats wrong with them (the scenes)?
>
>People don't explode in vacuum.  If you have a lung full of air, you might
>rupture your lungs when the otside pressure drops to zero, but not bursting
>eyeballs, etc., as shown in Outland.
>--
>
>Doug Berry


Actually when all pressure is removed the gasses in your body start
expanding, including those in your veins.  At JUST 5,000 feet they double in
pressure inside your body.  Every 5-10,000 feet they double again. I would
think that if you stepped out in vacuum you would probably explode.  It very
well could mean that your eyeballs pop out because they are expanding
rapidly with all the blood in and around them. Who knows positively what
happens to the human body in vacuum.  I certainly don't want to be the one
used to find out.  I went through the Air Force High Altitude Pressure
Chamber in Wiesbaden Germany and the smell as they lowered the pressure was
pretty bad as everyone was farting and belching to beat the band.  I seem
to recall they said that above 50,000 feet your blood would literally boil
from all the gas pressure building up in your ENTIRE body.

Thom Harris

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 11:59:53 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

At 11:27 PM 5/21/99 +1200, you wrote:
>Consider four machines.
>
>1 has both finite tape size and finite number of states
>2. has an infinte number of states, but a finite tape.
>3. has a finite number of states but at an infinte tape size
>4. has both infinite tape and infinite states.
>
>List the machines in order of ability and state why

Well, this is beyond my knowledge of the field (I've only studied state
machines with finite number of states), but my guess is that 1 is the
weakest, followed by 3, which of course is the "normal" Turing machine.
I'd guess that 2 and 4 are identical, since with infinite state I don't
think the tape matters much.  Am I right?  What's the real answer?

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 99 16:07:00 +0000
From: igor@truserve.com
Subject: Re: Brilliant Lances

> ALthough "custom hit charts for each ship" is a cute idea, it was a painful
> step in the design process - you can write a spreadsheet to automate
> everything else in the design, but not the hit chart (at least not unless
> you're as good as Andrew Akins, and even he hasn't done it yet.)

Oh now that sounds like a challenge...I'll see what I can do :)

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                           |
| Home: igor@truserve.com - www.truserve.com/~igor/ - AOL IM: Iowa Akins |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/ - AOL IM: CMS AndyA    |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+      |
|       vi+ da+                                                          |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+        |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                               |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:02:28 EDT
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: TNE running commentary...

Greetings All:

Would the participants in the great TNE/Computer debate please try to trim 
their various replies a bit more? It seems that these messages take up about 
50% of a digest (usually just a single message), and most of each individual 
message seems to be multiple-resnips (going back several messages) of 
previous material.

I would also urge you all to refrain from personal attacks, use of various 
curse words, etc., given the diverse nature of our reading population.

Remember: It's only a game. We can all certainly be polite, concise and civil 
when we discuss it!

Many thanks for your thoughtful consideration to this request!

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:07:25
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

At 04:43 PM 5/21/99 +0200, you wrote:
>
>>People don't explode in vacuum.  If you have a lung full of air, you might
>>rupture your lungs when the otside pressure drops to zero, but not bursting
>>eyeballs, etc., as shown in Outland.

>But when the movie was made, most people believed vacuum would do just that.

When the movie was made, people had access to twenty years of
high-altitude/vacuum testing done by NASA and the USAF.  The facts weren't
to hard to find.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 11:35:20 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Darrian Artists: MT Chargen (long)

The Artists, Darrian Psionic Martial Artists Character Generation

*** System: MegaTraveller ***

The Order of the Enlightened Art existed on Darrian before the
Maghiz, as advisors to nobles and protectors of the Darrian
populace. With the Maghiz and the insuing collapse in technology and
society, the Artists found themselves becoming extinct.  Where once
a proud and honorable Order stood, the surviving Artists of the
Maghiz retreated into a more monastic existence.  The numbers of the
Order became less and less over the generations, until only a mere
handful remain today.  A few Orders have kept the Artists'
traditions alive in Darrian space over the centuries, but have 
remained secluded until recently.  In 1109, a prominent noble of the 
Darrian subsector was assassinated with the traditional weapon of the 
Artists, the plasma sword known as the Artist's Brand.  Determined to 
resolve the dishonor on Artists everywhere, Grandmaster Kon'l of 
Darrian began investigating the attack. His hard work uncovered a 
rogue Order, called the Black Hand of the Maghiz, or simply the Hand. 
 The Hand now uses the teachings of the old Artist Order to perform 
assassinations and obtain political power.  The Order of the 
Enlightened Art and the Black Hand of the Maghiz are now mortal 
enemies, and are often found behind the scenes, working to hinder one 
another and destroy their rival's Order.

The following basic character generation system can be used to 
develop members of the Artists or the Hand.  It is handled exactly 
like the prior careers from the MegaTraveller Player's Manual, except 
that beginning characters determine their psionics score at the 
beginning of character creation.  If the character successfully 
enlists into this career, then determine the psionic talents the 
character can possibly learn using the normal process described 
in the book (they may have none), and give the character skill level 
one in each talent.

Skills are earned as normal:  2 for the first term, 1 per term 
thereafter.  One skill for commission, one skill per promotion, and 
one skill per special duty.  Making a commission, promotion, or 
special duty roll by four or more grants an additional skill level, 
as well.

Artists

Enlistment:  10+ (DM+1 if Int A+, DM+2 if Psi 8+)
Draft:  N/A
Survival:  6+ (DM+2 if Dex 8+)
Commission:  10+ (DM+1 if Psi 9+)
Promotion:  8+ (DM+1 if Int A+)
Special Duty:  4+
Reenlistment:  5+

Physical Training Skill Table
1. _Physical_
2. +1 Dex
3. _Physical_
4. Sabre
5. _Vice_
6. Leadership

Service Skill Table
1. _Gun Combat_
2. _Vehicle_
3. _Technical_
4. Survival
5. Sabre
6. _Psionics_

Education Skill Table
1. _Space_
2. _Space Tech_
3. _Technical_
4. Leadership
5. _Interpersonal_
6. _Psionics_

Advanced Education Table (must have Edu 8+)
1. _Academic_
2. _Space_
3. _Space Tech_
4. _Interpersonal_
5. _Inborn_
6. _Psionics_

Automatic Skills:
Artist (1st term):  Sabre-1
Master, 1st Degree:  Instruction-1

Rank Table:
01  Master, 1st Degree
02  Master, 2nd Degree
03  Master, 3rd Degree
04  Master, 4th Degree
05  High Master
06  Grand Master

Cash Benefits (DM+1 if Gambling-1+ or Prospecting-1+)
1.  1,000Cr
2.  1,000Cr
3.  2,000Cr
4.  5,000Cr
5.  10,000Cr
6.  20,000Cr
7.  50,000Cr

Material Benefits (DM+1 if Rank O5+)
1.  Mid Passage
2.  Mid Passage
3.  Sabre
4.  Sabre
5.  +2 Edu
6.  +2 Int
7.  High Passage

New Cascade Skill Group:
Psionics:  Upon receiving this skill group, the character must select 
to increase one of their psionic talents by one skill level, or they 
may select to gain a skill level one in a psionic talent they do not 
yet know (with the exception of the Special talent.  If a character 
doesn't have the predisposition for Special psionic talents upon 
character creation, it's really difficult to obtain training to bring 
it out after initial training.)

[Disclaimer:  Anyone is allowed to use the information herein for
campaigns, etc.  The only two things I ask are: 1) you have fun with
it, and 2) if you use the concept of the Darrian Artists in a
publication or on a website, I just want an honorable mention.
Thanks.]

In Service,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:44:10 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Traveller Webring

I was running around the Traveller Webring last night and noticed several 
sites that were not being very good about being on a "ring" (not having the 
Ring graphic on the incoming page, and not having any obvious leads to get to 
it; that sort of thing). Has anyone else noticed this, and is there anything 
we can do about it?

GC

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:54:04 -0400
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller Webring

I've seen that before, not just limited to the Traveller webring.  Two
thoughts on how to handle.  First, email the webmaster of the offending site
and point out the oversight.  Second, email the person in charge of the
webring pointing out the sites that do not have the link.

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	GypsyComet@aol.com [mailto:GypsyComet@aol.com]
		Sent:	Friday, May 21, 1999 12:44 PM
		To:	traveller@mpgn.com
		Subject:	Traveller Webring

		I was running around the Traveller Webring last night and
noticed several 
		sites that were not being very good about being on a "ring"
(not having the 
		Ring graphic on the incoming page, and not having any
obvious leads to get to 
		it; that sort of thing). Has anyone else noticed this, and
is there anything 
		we can do about it?

		GC

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:35:53 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Darrian Artists Vs The Irklansa

Greetings, All,

For those of you who like the concept of the Darrian Artists, and are
considering their use in the Spinward Marches, I have another thought
regarding integrating them into YTU.  Not too long ago, I learned of
the Irklansa (JTAS #23) here on the TML, a sect of psionic ninja
types.  It might be worthwhile to consider using the Irklansa in
addition to, or in place of, the Black Hand of the Maghiz, as an
enemy of the Order of the Enlightened Art.  While they do not use the
Artists' Plasma Swords, the Irklansa also have their secrets and
their code of honor to observe.  The cultural conflicts might be very
interesting and, as the Irklansa are located within the Imperium
proper, you are not as tied to a Darrian-centric campaign as the
original scenario I described might lead to.  Also, the use of the
Irklansa ties into the canonical OTU a bit better, which may or may
not be a good thing, depending on your viewpoint. :) 

Just another thought on a possible plot idea.

Enjoy,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:24:45 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL) 

> In mail you write:
> 
> > One possible technology that might fit what you are thinking of is
> > Magnetic Domain Memory (at least that is the name that sticks in my
> > memory).  It is also called "bubble memory."  This was supposed to be
> > the next big memory wave in the early 80s, but never came about for some
> > reason.  Probably the sticking point was that it was significantly more
> > expensive, and the initial demand wasn't high enough to get
> > manufacturing streamlined and large scale.  I understand that a limited
> > amount is still made for some military applications, but haven't heard
> > specific units it might be in.  Bubble memory is also non-volotile, and
> > could be turned off and turned back on at the exact same point in a
> > calculation (no hard drive needed).
> 
> I have an Intel "experimentors kit" for Bubble Memory. It has a 256k
> (byte) module. It's a bout the size of a pack of cigarettes and is
> *heavy* (several *ounces*). It's also slower than even an *old* hard
> drive.

They had a project in one of the Color Computer mags back then about using a 
256K bubble module or 2 for external storage.  It's been a few zillion years 
since I got rid of them all (and right now, I wish I *haddn't*; there was an 
article on simulation programming I could rilly use right about now...), so I 
couldn't tell you what all was involved besides the modules, a wire wrap card, 
& a few ICs for glue.
 
Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:35:27 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: no one plays CT anymore 

> I kind of like asteroid ships - must be those Saturday mornings wasted
> watching _Jason of Star Command_ and _Space Academy_(?). :-)

Yeah.  Jonathan Harris ('Lost In Space's Dr Smith) found out he could make a 
living getting residuals from working in sci fi.  <grin>
 
> IMTU, I don't allow a class discount on asteroid hulls. Each rock has
> different centers of gravity, fracture lines, overall shape, etc., so it
> didn't seem appropriate that mass-production techniques would apply
> as written. In some ways, each asteroid ship must be custom made.

That makes sense to me.
 
Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #657
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 21 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 658



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: no one plays CT anymore 
Re: Macromolecules
FLGS in Harvard area
Dallas Gaming Store (was Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX)
Materials In Robots
Re: ADMIN: Movie Stuff and Off Topic Posts
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
Playing CT
Re: OTU Cannon (was "Re: Computer Technology")
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
Re: ADMIN: Movie Stuff and Off Topic Posts
Re: Playing CT
Re: Traveller Webring
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
Re: Traveller Webring 
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
Canon ref to Aslan & K'Kree ship colors?
Re: Traveller Webring
Heavy Fighter from Supp 9
Re: Traveller Webring 
TML?
Re: Analog Aliens
Re: Boston area headcount
Re: Skill Clusters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:40:20 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: no one plays CT anymore 

> In a message dated 5/21/99 6:39:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU writes:
>  IMTU, I don't allow a class discount on asteroid hulls. Each rock has
>  different centers of gravity, fracture lines, overall shape, etc., so it
>  didn't seem appropriate that mass-production techniques would apply
>  as written. In some ways, each asteroid ship must be custom made.
>  
>  I don't think this would break the cost savings Steven is talking about
>  though.
>   >>
> 
> I always loved Rock and Pebble from Adventure to Zhodane. I would rather have 
> Rock for a PC ship than a scout/courier...

IIRC, Pebble was *also* a hollow rock.  Mebbe not the best choice for a boat 
that has to land...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 20:54:17 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Macromolecules

On 20/5/99 Bruce Johnson said:
 
> >> 1.  Create a single molecule that is visible to the naked eye
> >
> >Yes...they're called diamonds. Also synthetic rubies, sapphires, etc. Nylon
> >monofilament is a monomolecular structure.

Meaning that the typical Cyberpunk monomolecular cable which cuts 
*anything* is absurd?

Carlos.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:11:31 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: FLGS in Harvard area

Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no> write:
>I'm visiting Harvard for a few days. Do any of you know of any good
>FLGS in the Harvard area?

I'll take a stab at you meaning Harvard University in Cambridge, MA.

Right in Harvard Square, in the Garage Mall, Pandemonium Books & Games.
http://www.tiac.net/users/pandemo/



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:02:25 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Dallas Gaming Store (was Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX)

Bloo posted:

<<
Rob Miracle wrote:

> > Hooray! Just picked up "First In" last night.
> > I hope to post a review this weekend for your
> > amusement and flaming.
>
> Are there any good gaming stores in the Dallas Area.
> I'm stuck in Grapevine for a few more days and some
> good reading would be nice.
>
> (Directions from Grapevine would be nice as well)
>
> Rob

Look up Lone Star Comics in the phone book.
Several locations - one should be close.
But I'd call about Gurps stuff.
The other two places I know are in North Dallas
in Prestonwood Mall and Valley View Mall.
Don't recall the names.
>>

Lone Star Comics definitely is a decent
chain in Dallas and they're starting to
ramp up their GURPS inventory (finally!).

However, Valley View Mall's game store,
called the Game Chest, carries every
GURPS supplement in print. G:T is turning
into a big seller for them (YES!)

Prestonwood Mall shut down completely last
year and will be bulldozed. The store that was
there, Games Unique, has moved to a location
on Arapaho just west of Hillcrest. They
have copies of a number of TNE supplements
in stock, including the Regency Sourcebook
and the one covering Regency combat vehicles.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 13:39:40 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Materials In Robots

Ever wonder just how hi-TL robots might move their appendages without
embarassingly low TL pulleys and cables? Well, here you go. The
following excerpts are from an article posted by the ScienceDaily
located at:

 http://207.153.213.131/releases/1999/05/990521055614.htm

This is a good example of how limited nanotech can be used in
the Imperium.


First Artificial Muscle Arrays From Carbon Nanotubes 

New developed sheets of single-walled nanotubes were shown by
scientists from the Max Planck Institute for Solid State Research
in Stuttgart/Germany, from the USA, Australia and Italy, to generate
higher stresses than natural muscle and higher strains than
high-modulus ferroelectrics (Science 21 May 1999). 

<snip>

Carbon nanotubes are very thin and long tubes. Their diameter is only
one or a few nanometers, which means that they are not thicker than
typical molecules, and their length can be several micrometers and
even millimeters. In electronics, these nanotubes are discussed as
quantum wires and quantum dots. They can be used as components of
nanostructured field effect transistors and single electron
transistors. Their mechanical strength enables applications in
nanocomposite materials and, because of the large surface area per
weight, nanotubes are good candidates for all sorts of gas absorption,
including hydrogen storage for sustainable energy supplies. 

From X-ray investigations of graphite we know that the honeycomb
lattice expands if the graphitic sheets are electrically charged.
Quantumchemical calculations predict that this is also true for carbon
nanotubes: The tubes will increase their length if we change the number
of electrons sitting on a tube. This effect can be used for
electromechanical actuators. Actuators are the moving parts in robotics
("artificial muscles").

<snip>

The actuator effect of carbon nanotubes has been demonstrated by a
multinational cooperation, funded by DARPA and lead by Ray Baughman,
involving teams at AlliedSignal Inc. in Morristown, USA, at the
University of Wollongong in Australia, the University of Pisa in Italy,
the University of Florida in Gainesville, Fl, USA, the Georgetown
University in Washington DC, and the Max Planck Institute for Solid State
Research in Stuttgart, Germany. For this purpose, a strip of bucky paper
has been dipped in salt water and electrochemically charged by changing
the potential to +/- 1V versus a standard electrode.

[Note: Bucky paper is a free standing film of bundles of nanotubes.]

The length expansion has been made visible by sticking the bucky paper
on a piece of inert material (e. g. scotch tape). If the bucky paper
expands, the bi-strip bends and the motion can easily be seen by the naked
eye. 

Therefore, the new actuators open a vast field of potential applications,
both by using bucky paper as a macroscopic material, and by using ropes
or even individual carbon nanotubes for micro and nano actuator devices. 

[The original news release can be found at
 http://www.mpg.de/news99/news26_99.htm ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:29:33 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Movie Stuff and Off Topic Posts

On Thu, 20 May 1999 16:08:16 -0400 Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com> writes:
>
>Actually, I originally joined for Classic Traveller, but I realize no
>one plays that anymore, so I just glean what I can from the list 
>(there
>are tons of good ideas here) and convert it.

Oh, some of us still honor the one true Traveller

8^)

Jim Clem
Helix:  I once heard about a prototype reactor that lost its plasma
containment.  It made
a huge bang and flash of light when it started up.
Florence:  Yes.  Its one of the few cases of an existing product becoming
vaporware!

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:41:59 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

On Thu, 20 May 1999 20:20:30 EDT AveNelso@aol.com writes:
>In a message dated 5/20/99 9:41:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
>cos90@powersurfr.com writes:
>
><< out the success of Star Wars to pave the way. Before Star Wars, 
>there
> was very little SF being made on film. 2001 was a rare exception, and 
>that
> was in 1968, 10 years before Star Wars. >>
>


Huh??  I dont think so.  Hmmmm, lez see

1920s (?)
Metropolis ( a _wonderful_ silent film, ala blade runner, if you ever can
find it, watch it )
Frau im Mond ( another silent film )

1930s and 40s (?)
The Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers serials ( if you can include SW, then
these count as well )

1950s
War of the Worlds
Forbidden Planet
The Thing ( the original film version )

1960s
Silent Running ( well, maybe, too close to the 60's pop culture in space
perhaps )

Any others anyone knows of?

Jim Clem
Helix:  I once heard about a prototype reactor that lost its plasma
containment.  It made
a huge bang and flash of light when it started up.
Florence:  Yes.  Its one of the few cases of an existing product becoming
vaporware!

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:42:40 EDT
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Playing CT

Greetings:

Interestingly enough, CT (or a modification, maybe "almost MT" would be the 
way to categorize it) is what I'll be using in my upcoming campaign (if 
player interest continues).

The reason: Familiarity on my part, familiarity on the part of the player's 
recruited so far, availability of material. I floated the possibility of 
using GURPS: Traveller, no real interest (yes to background, no to learning 
another rules system). So, we'll probably use a variation of CT with some 
stuff from DGP's magazine and supplements (the task system and such).

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:42:45 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: OTU Cannon (was "Re: Computer Technology")

	Don't forget,   Marines use Cutlasses

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 13:58:12 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

j a c wrote:
> 
> Any others anyone knows of?
> 
>

Well, how about Alien? Wasn't that made in 1977 or so? I remember that vaguely,
because Jaws and Alien were playing at the same theater. My best friend and I
paid for Alien, and then when that was done we snuck next door and saw Jaws.

I know Alien is more of a horror show than sci-fi, but it made a lasting
impression on me, and had one of the best catch-phrases:

In outer space nobody can hear you scream.



- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:00:13 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Movie Stuff and Off Topic Posts

In a message dated 5/21/99 3:43:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
journeyman2000@juno.com writes:

<< 
 Oh, some of us still honor the one true Traveller
  >>

	You know, now that I've seen Andy SLack's Vehicle Combat rules from 
the old White Dwarf article, I'm consierding playing Classic Traveller again, 
I mean I still find that the Traveller Book was one of the classiest, 
cleanest and most complete RPG rulebook I've ever seen.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 13:14:48 -0700
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Playing CT

> The reason: Familiarity on my part, familiarity on the part of the
player's
> recruited so far, availability of material. I floated the possibility of
> using GURPS: Traveller, no real interest (yes to background, no to
learning
> another rules system). So, we'll probably use a variation of CT with some
> stuff from DGP's magazine and supplements (the task system and such).
>
> Fred Kiesche
>
That sounds like what most people I new play.

Wayne Ewart (CT/HG Templer wanna-be)
wewart@home.com
ICQ 22113294

Give a man fire, he'll be warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for life!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:19:28 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Webring

> I've seen that before, not just limited to the Traveller webring.  Two
> thoughts on how to handle.  First, email the webmaster of the offending site
> and point out the oversight.  Second, email the person in charge of the
> webring pointing out the sites that do not have the link.
> 
I've never been invited to join it, and although I support Classic
Traveller, I don't know how I can put up anything better than you guys
already have.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 13:15:55 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

Here's my listing...I've picked movies I thought met the criteria of
decent sf films:

j a c wrote:
> 
> 1920s (?)
> Metropolis ( a _wonderful_ silent film, ala blade runner, if you ever can
> find it, watch it )
> Frau im Mond ( another silent film )

HG Wells "Things to Come"

> 
> 1930s and 40s (?)
> The Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers serials ( if you can include SW, then
> these count as well )

Looking at the Internet Movie Database...there's not much else!

> 1950s
> War of the Worlds
> Forbidden Planet
> The Thing ( the original film version )

Aaack! You forgot:

"The Day The Earth Stood Still"
"Invasion of the Body Snatchers"
"Destination Moon"
"Them"
"When Worlds Collide"

plus:
"1984" (the original one)
"The Blob"
 
And the winner of the coveted Golden Turkey for worst film of all time:

"Plan 9 from Outer Space"

> 
> 1960s
> Silent Running ( well, maybe, too close to the 60's pop culture in space
> perhaps )

Silent Running was 1972.

"The Day of the Triffids"
"Colossus: The Forbin Project" 
"Village of the Damned"
"Farenheight 451"
"Fantastic Voyage"
"Marooned"
"Moon Zero Two"
"Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea"

and , of course, the great cinematic masterpiece

"Santa Claus versus the Martians"!


1970-1976

"A Boy and His Dog"
"A Clockwork Orange"
"Westworld" and it's sequel "Futureworld"
"Dark Star"!!!!!!!
"Logan's Run"
"The Man Who Fell to Earth"
"Omega Man"
"Rollerball"
"Solaris" 
(a russian film adatation of the Stanislaw Lem book...it is a haunting
film see it twice, you'll miss things the first time around)
"Soylent Green"
"Stepford Wives"
"THX-1138" (duh!)
"Zardoz"





- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:27:18 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

>Well, how about Alien? Wasn't that made in 1977 or so?

1979

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:28:35 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Webring 

> > I've seen that before, not just limited to the Traveller webring.  Two
> > thoughts on how to handle.  First, email the webmaster of the offending site
> > and point out the oversight.  Second, email the person in charge of the
> > webring pointing out the sites that do not have the link.
> > 
> I've never been invited to join it, and although I support Classic
> Traveller, I don't know how I can put up anything better than you guys
> already have.

All I did was concentrate on *one* sector in *one* time frame and build from there.  The result?  Hyphen gave me 4 stars, & I'm not *DONE* yet.  <grin>

*ANYBODY* can do this.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:45:23 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

"Joseph R. Dietrich" wrote:
> 
> >Well, how about Alien? Wasn't that made in 1977 or so?
> 
> 1979
> 
> Ciao,
> 

Jaws must have been rereleased then, in order for me to sneak into it at the
theatre. Oh well, I stand corrected.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:00:07 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Canon ref to Aslan & K'Kree ship colors?

Hey gang,

Got another tight deadline and ***ZERO*** extra time to do any research in
my own archives.  Question is:  Is there a canon reference to the "standard"
colors of Aslan & K'Kree ships?  I'm trying to rush some pictures for G:T
"Aslan & K'Kree".

Best & Thanks as Always,
Jesse
www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
"Striving to Produce a Better (Illustrated) Traveller Universe" (tm)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:13:07 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Webring

> All I did was concentrate on *one* sector in *one* time frame and build from there.  The result?
> Hyphen gave me 4 stars, & I'm not *DONE* yet.  <grin>
> 
> *ANYBODY* can do this.
> 
At the risk of sounding pendantic, I think I have little to offer s
group like this.  Most of the posts are far more intelligent than I am,
especially the gear-head stuff.  I'm forced mainly to be a lurker here
because the ideas are better than my own.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:10:16 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Heavy Fighter from Supp 9

In CT Supplement 9 (Fighting Ships) there is an entry for a Heavy Fighter
(50dton) that seems to be the main fighter carried by the Tigress, the
Atlantic, and a bunch of others.  Does anyone know if this class of
fighters ever had a class name?

Thanks,



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- -- 
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:19:30 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Webring 

> > All I did was concentrate on *one* sector in *one* time frame and build from there.  The result?
> > Hyphen gave me 4 stars, & I'm not *DONE* yet.  <grin>
> > 
> > *ANYBODY* can do this.
> > 
> At the risk of sounding pendantic, I think I have little to offer s
> group like this.  Most of the posts are far more intelligent than I am,
> especially the gear-head stuff.  I'm forced mainly to be a lurker here
> because the ideas are better than my own.

So?  Most of my site was assembled from the works of others.  I melded a few other ideas I shamelessly took (and fully credited) in, and came up with some flashy starmaps using a freeware program that I put a link to.

It's not hard.  Just don't give up before you start.  And you'll know you had a good contribution to the effort when somebody *else* starts looting your files for *their* site.  (Hi, Derek!  <grin>)

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:34:26 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: TML?

BTW, I myself have a personal movie-review website, with capsule reviews
of nearly 1,000 films, with a disproportionately large percentage of them
being SF films...
	http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn/movies/
if anyone is interested.

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:49:11 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Shucks, no all we need is an energy eliminator, do you happen to have one?
> -Stephen

Yes, I do.  It's called "Monday mornings."  :-p

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 02:43:58 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Boston area headcount

Mark Urbin wrote:

> I'm actually just west of 495, 50 Km due West of Boston.
>
> The Space Vermin (our group) does have some members closer in:
> Newton, Waltham, JP.

I'm in Boston proper.  Have no idea where 495 is.
Strictly a pedestrian these days.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 02:48:34 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Skill Clusters

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:

> What happens when you roll on the Char Gen and you get something like
> Bussness, a skill cluster, do you then chose a sub skill or do you get
> level-0 in all skills (in that cluster)?
> -Stephen

T4, p.37
Cluster = pick 1
Cascade = pick 1, all other skills in cascade at -1 from picked skill.

The only Cascades are:
Aircraft
Blade Combat
Gun Combat

Spacecraft (Pilot and Ship's Boat) is a hybrid:  Its cascade if you pick
Pilot, its cluster if you take Ship's Boat, i.e,
Ship's Boat Skill Level = Pilot Skill Level -1.



- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #658
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 21 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 659



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: FLGS in Harvard area
[OT] For Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: no one plays CT anymore
Re: During the Collapse
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Spetznaz
Re: Macromolecules
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #658
Re: Monomolecules
Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
Gearhead question
Re: Boston area headcount
Re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Re: Gearhead question
Re: Skill Clusters
Re: Analog Aliens
Re: Skill Clusters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:41:50 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: FLGS in Harvard area

Tommy Grav wrote:

> I'm visiting Harvard for a few days. Do any of you know of any good
> FLGS in the Harvard area?
>
> Tommy Grav

Harvard Garage - Just west of Hardvard Square.
Go to the Second level.
Across the hall from Newberry Comics.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:15:37 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: [OT] For Carlos Alos-Ferrer

Carlos.

I can't send mail out to the BTE list.
Its something on my end.  Don't know what.

I am receiving though.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 02:52:05 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

[Snip movie list]

> I know I'm missing a few, but the early/mid seventies were a great time for
> SF on film.

Totally agree!  In fact, I would say that it was just these movies
that paved the way for Star Wars Episode 4.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:26:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

In mail you write:

> 1950s
> War of the Worlds
> Forbidden Planet
> The Thing ( the original film version )

All of which are pretty much in debt to "Destination: Moon" which was
very loosely based on Heinlein's "Rocket Ship Galileo" and had Heinlein
as technical advisor.

And keep in mind the *biggy* "The Conquest of Space". This was a
psuedo-documentary on how we'd build a space station, go to the moon,
and then on to Mars.

> 1960s
> Silent Running ( well, maybe, too close to the 60's pop culture in space
> perhaps )

"Robinson Crusoe on Mars". A lot of hokey stuff (especially the "air
rocks" and "air pills") but still interesting. You could even
transplant it to Traveller without too much trouble.

"Marooned", based loosely on the *original* version of "Marooned" by
Martin Caidin. After the film a new edition was released that matched
the film. Your basic "astronauts in orbit, and the reentry pack won't
fire" story.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:49:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

In mail you write:

> Hey hey hey hey hey!
>
> Us 'old fogies' (quarter-century-old's) learned to program real code in
> Assembler, ditched Pascal 'cause the 'puter teachers thought it was a good
> idea to learn it, and became way too familiar with rogue pointers...  At
> least C lets you stuff it up worse, quicker :)

Somewhere, I have (or used to have, it may be on the HD that died a few
years back) a Pascal "code obfuscator". What it does is goes thru and
changes all variable, constant, function and procedure names to
arbitrary character strings (AAAAA AAAAB AAAAAC etc). Then it removes
all indentation from the code. And finally, it combines short lines
into long ones (after all the ";" is the statement seperator), while
removing any blank lines. Oh yeah, it removes all comments too. 

It started out as a way to turn "sensitive" code into something that
could be sent into Borland to demonstrate a compiler bug without giving
away anything important. 

It got "expanded" so that the more paranoid programmers could supply
source code to units without too much risk of their ideas being stolen.

>> >>C++ is the improved version of C
>> >No, Assembly is the improved version of C.
>> >C++ is just C with Object Oriented support kludged in. :-)
>> Ah, C++. A language with all the power of assembly - and all the
>> readability of assembly ;>
>
> Thats rough.  OOS is another acronym for occupational overuse syndrome, ya
> know.  Its also the best thing that ever happened to C, apart from being
> born from A and B...  Anyone actually *remember* Kerningham and Richie? :P

I've got their book somewhere. Someday I'll have to finish it.

> ObTrav[ish]:  The scene in star trek [something-or-other] where Scottie
> picks up a mouse and starts trying to chat to it - kind-of makes the
> 'antique computer' skill more useful, huh?  Would you be able to plug a TL15
> optical-thingy into a TL9 +/- 5v, +/- 12v box?

As a general rule, plugging something into something 2 TLs older will
*fry* the newer device. Examples:

Hook a 20ma current loop device to RS-232.
Hook RS-232 to TTL
Hook 5v TTL to 3v TTL

Obviously, this breaks down when you go from electronics to photonics. 

BTW, the IBM 2311 disk drive used *hydraulics* to drove the head
positioning mechanism!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:43:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

In mail you write:

> Actually when all pressure is removed the gasses in your body start
> expanding, including those in your veins.  At JUST 5,000 feet they double in
> pressure inside your body.  Every 5-10,000 feet they double again.

Nope. Totally false. The pressure inside your body matches the pressure
*outside*. At sea level, that's 15 psi. 

If you get dumped from a 15 psi habitat into a vacuum, the pressure
inside will *still* be 15 psi, dropping rapidly. 

> I would
> think that if you stepped out in vacuum you would probably explode.  It very
> well could mean that your eyeballs pop out because they are expanding
> rapidly with all the blood in and around them. Who knows positively what
> happens to the human body in vacuum.  I certainly don't want to be the one
> used to find out.

We've got *tons* of experimental data on chimps, as well as some human
data from a few accidents. 

> I went through the Air Force High Altitude Pressure
> Chamber in Wiesbaden Germany and the smell as they lowered the pressure was
> pretty bad as everyone was farting and belching to beat the band.

That *is* one thing that will happen. You'll damn near *spray* out the
contents of your colon. 

> I seem
> to recall they said that above 50,000 feet your blood would literally boil
> from all the gas pressure building up in your ENTIRE body.

Long before that happens, you'll pass out from lack of oxygen. And it
actually takes a fair amount of time for bubbles to form in your blood,
because the circulatory system is pretty well isolated from the
outside. 

But skin is a *lot* tougher than we given it credit for. It'll hold
together, even though you *will* swell up pretty bad. 

Col. Kittinger holds the record for a parachute jump. He exited a
pressurized capsule carried by a balloon somewhere around 100,000 feet.
That's more than high enough to be a vacuum as far as physiological
effects are concerned. He was wearing a standard Air Force high
altitude suit. But he forgot to put on the gloves before jumping (or
they got torn away as he jumped, I forget which)

It takes 55 seconds to drop from 100,000 feet to 50,000 feet. So his
hands got *lots* of exposure to vacuum. The effects were swelling due
to fluid entrapment, lots of burst capillaries in the surface layers,
and a bit of damage similar to bruising. 

And the other studies tend to bear this out. You won't get a lot of
damage even with prolonged exposure. At least not *externally*.
Internally, some time *after* you lose conciousness, your lungs will
fill with fluid and said fluid will start to boil. Your eyes will dry
out, and maybe even start to freezing. And there's a chance of things
like ruptured lungs if you tried to hold your breath, or ruptured
intestines if you tried not to let everything go out the other end. 

BTW, that *is* the one really "unglamorous" side to being a member of
the "Vacuum breathers" club. The mess in your pants. At least it'll be
vacuum dried as it comes out. 

Oh yeah, I *can* see something like a fresh scar from abdominal surgery
popping open under the stress. *that* would be ugly.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:01:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: no one plays CT anymore

In mail you write:

> Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>   At TL F you can actually make asteroid-hulled freighters that are more
> efficient than anything except a dispersed (open-frame) hull - and has
> superior integral armour at no cash cost. Also good for people who can't
> afford higher start up costs (-25%) but don't expect to need the ~800 Dt
> payload of a typical 1 kt F-1. Amusingly, at yet higher TL's these units
> become _more_ competitive as the lower power plant costs make the lower
> payload % more acceptable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I kind of like asteroid ships - must be those Saturday mornings wasted
> watching _Jason of Star Command_ and _Space Academy_(?). :-)
>
> IMTU, I don't allow a class discount on asteroid hulls. Each rock has
> different centers of gravity, fracture lines, overall shape, etc., so it
> didn't seem appropriate that mass-production techniques would apply
> as written. In some ways, each asteroid ship must be custom made.
>
> I don't think this would break the cost savings Steven is talking about
> though.

I still like the idea in the old SF novel "Gallagher's Glacier". It
involves an "asteroid" hulled ship. Made of *ice*. 

It's a great idea. The ice makes tunneling easy, and you can use it for
fuel. 

He spun the ship for gravity, and as time went on, all the rooms and
corridors tended to work their way towards the outer hull. And a void
appeared in the center. So every once in a while he'd melt surface ice
and pump it back to the center. And he'd then re "drill" the corridors.
The rooms could be moved by judicious melting and levering. 

Oh yeah, he smuggled. The customs inspectors never quite figured out
the idea that he could make a compartment in the ice that wasn't
attached to *anything* and then later, spend a few hours digging to it
to unload. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:09:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: During the Collapse

In mail you write:

>>Think about it carefully, you've got no power, how many things do you
>>rely on that use power?
>>
>>Could you make power?  How?

Solar cells, wind or water generator. (all of which I intend to have
eventually) 

>>Could you aquire food?  How about perserve it?

Yes, to some extent. Huntiung I can do. And with care, my ammo supply
will last a *long* time (I've got 1000 rounds).

Preserving? I know how to smoke meat. And if I can find salt, I can
always salt it (I'm not counting on being able to get to the coast)

Drying works for a lot of veggies. And we do have a fair number of nut
trees in the vicinity.

But veggies *will* be one of the things I'd have to look hard for.

>>What would you consider the bare essentials for survival?  The clothes
>>on your back?  The clothes in your closet?  A gun?  A knife?

More stuff than I currently have. If I can combine with a few friends,
we'll be in pretty good shape. 

>>How long could you survive on a weeks rations?

A *long* time, though I wouldn't like it. I'm rather overweight, so as
long as I have some vitamins and water, I could keep going. I wouldn't
*like* it, but it'd be possible.

>>How would you build shelter?

I've got the "tarp" type "rescue blankets". Add some brush, and that
would do for a start. Next we progress to a lean to. Or find a good
rock overhang. For that matter, I know where there's a dugout shelter
in the woods that could be refurbished without too much trouble. Or I
could build one (basicly, dig a hole, line with pine branches or the
like, place poles or small logs over the top, annd branches, cover with
dirt, leave hole at side for entrance). Sod huts work in areas with few
trees.


>>Keep warm?  Could you start a fire with the contents of your
>>pockets?  What about in two months when your lighter runs out of fuel,
>>what would you do then?

I have a kit that contains a *large* magnifying glass (which I have
used to start fires), to different sets of "flint" and steel, both
magnesium powder and chunk magnesium to shave for "tinder", a "solar
cigarette lighter" which is basicly a curved mirror with a bracket to
hold something at the focus. It'll work for tinder just as well as it
would for cigarettes. 

It's also *possible* (though not recommended) to start a fire with a
cartridge. 

I still need to lay in a supply of tinder for the tinderbox, as well as
make a "fire carrier". Being in the SCA is sometimes useful. :-)

Oh yeah,. I also have a waterproff container of matches, but that's
cheating. 

>>Think about it and we're only TL8, now imagine falling from TL15.  Look
>>at the contents of your pockets.  Key's flat little pieces of metal yet
>>we're totally screwed with out them, imagine if everything your life
>>depended on suddenly stopped working.  What would happen then?

There will *always* be both "survivalist" types, and folks into various
sorts of "historical recreation". And things like boy scouts. All of
these people will have large chunks of the knowledge and equipment
required to keep going after things go to hell. 

Even so, most won't make it. They'll either succumb to bandits, or run
into a situation they *weren't* able to handle. But some will make it.
*Which* ones make it could have quite an effect on the future of the
world. 

Consider worlds were the "survivalist" and "militia" types managed to
make it thru.

Now consider one where the "boy scouts" wound up as the dominant
"culture". 

And how about ones where the historical recreationists did? (SCA
crossed with buckskinners?). 

Or where the Amish were the surivors (actually, I'm not sure that they
are *quite* that self sufficient). 

Now consider the results of all these societies after they make it
*back* from the "Long Night". I can see cultures that decide *not* to
go with anything that isn't maintainable with *local* resources. By
that, I mean "within a days walk/ride". 

And others that do allow higher tech stuff but only as long as they've
got measures in place to do without it if it breaks. Imagine a planet
where for a week each season, they drop the high tech stuff and make
sure that the standby methods work. Or where they've *got* modern
conveniences, but mostly live in small towns and villages set up so
they can do without at need. 

BTW, that last one, combined with a bit of camoflage for the high tech
stuff, would make a *great* defence against raiders. Look like you
don't have anything beyond "chicken stealing" for the "Space Viking"
types to go after, and most will leave you alone. 

Hmmm. This *could* explain some of the low tech worlds. They don't
*want* a higher TL. That's a pretty alien viewpoint for us, but look at
the Amish. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:38:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 99-05-21 01:01:39 EDT, you write:
>
> <<  >Outlands flunks due to the "explosive decompression" scenes. It
>  >*doesn't* work that way.
>  
>  Leonard, was this the *only* problem you had with High Noon on Io, err..
>  Outland(ish)?
>  >>
>
> Whats wrong with them (the scenes)?

Everything. They basicly had vacuum turn you into a pile of shredded
meat. Doesn't work that way. Your skin is a so-so grade of *leather*.
Upon exposure to a vacuum, you'll get fluid trapped in the tissues just
under the skin, leading to *lots* of swelling. You'll also get burst
capillaries near the surface. Fresh cuts may bleed into vacuum (an
astronaut accidentally punctured his glove and his hand on an EVA on
the Shuttle. They only discovered it after the mission when they found
blood in the glove liner)

Eyeballs will have *lots* of burst capillaries, and may bulge out some.
You'll have some *real* problems with abdominal bloating, and you'll be
spraying gas, liquids and solids out your ass.

But only the flimsier surface features on your body are going to have
any chance of rupturing badly. And even *they* won't look like the
messes they showed in Outland.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:40:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Spetznaz

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
> <snipped>
> "Anybody care to guess what the NPC did? No fair replying 
> if you've read the Horseclans book where Milo describes 
> this trick."
>
>         A number of things come to mind, but the most obvious
>         would be to scoop out an eye. You don't need fancy
>         equipment to inflict suffering, just a little
>         depravity ;->

Well, you're more depraved than I am. I and my friends had encountered
folks being *threatened* with a spoon in a couple of books and not been
able to figure what the threatr was. Not until we read the rather
graphic description of actually *doing* it. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:35:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Macromolecules

In mail you write:

> On 20/5/99 Bruce Johnson said:
>  
>> >> 1.  Create a single molecule that is visible to the naked eye
>> >
>> >Yes...they're called diamonds. Also synthetic rubies, sapphires, etc. 
> Nylon
>> >monofilament is a monomolecular structure.
>
> Meaning that the typical Cyberpunk monomolecular cable which cuts 
> *anything* is absurd?

There are *two* problems with that idea. First, it takes *effort* to
cut hard materials. 

Second, you'd better have the cable *anchored* to something harder than
what you are cutting. 

Piano wire and monofilament fishing line both demonstrate the problem
nicely. With the fishing line, it's quite possible to cut yourself. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:55:24 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #658

> Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:40:20 -0400
> From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: no one plays CT anymore
> 
> > I always loved Rock and Pebble from Adventure to Zhodane. I would rather have
> > Rock for a PC ship than a scout/courier...
> 
> IIRC, Pebble was *also* a hollow rock.  Mebbe not the best choice for a boat
> that has to land...

I recall differently. Pebble was a "traditional" round-ended 
cylinder.

- -RB

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:57:38 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Monomolecules

> On 20/5/99 Bruce Johnson said:
> 
> > >> 1.  Create a single molecule that is visible to the naked eye
> > >
> > >Yes...they're called diamonds. Also synthetic rubies, sapphires, etc.
> Nylon
> > >monofilament is a monomolecular structure.

I don't believe this is the case, either for the gems or 
the nylon. Cite?

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 21:38:04 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

At 03:49 PM 5/21/99 -0800, you wrote:
>> Thats rough.  OOS is another acronym for occupational overuse syndrome, ya
>> know.  Its also the best thing that ever happened to C, apart from being
>> born from A and B...  Anyone actually *remember* Kerningham and Richie? :P

Actually, there never was an "A", just a "B".  As for K&R, I taught myself
C in four hours by reading that book cover to cover.  C++ took more doing... 

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:18:04 -0400
From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
Subject: Gearhead question

If a ship design places a self contained thruster (like a fusion rocket) on
the outside of a hull, does the volume of the thruster count with the volume
of the hull when determining Gs of thrust?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:26:02 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Boston area headcount

> > Newton, Waltham, JP.
> 
> I'm in Boston proper.  Have no idea where 495 is.
> Strictly a pedestrian these days.
> 

495 is an hour north on highway route 93 from Boston.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 21:45:22 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: 3I Raising Military Forces

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> While at Ft. Benning, I served in the 3rd Battalion, 7th Infantry
> (Cottonbalers), one of the oldest units in the Army.  Even though our
> first battalion was in Germany, and out second in Texas somewhere, we had
> pride in our unit, especially compared to those cream puffs in the 1/29th.
> 
> We were told of the exploits of Cottonbalers through the years, had the
> origin of the unit nickname repeated endlessly (it goes back the Battle of
> New Orleans), and saluted our officers with "Willing and Able, Sir!", our
> regimental motto.  I don't think one guy in ten could quote the 197th
> Infantry Brigade's motto (Forever Faithful), but we had no trouble
> operating inside the system.

I always thought that the 197th's motto was "dick in a vise", based on
their unit patch.  ;-)  BTW, were you with the 197th during the Gulf
War?  (I was attached to the brigade S-2 section as an interrogator.)

From my (admittedly limited) experience working with infantry units,
battalions of the 82d Airborne Division, each of whose brigades were
"regiment-pure" as regards infantry battalions, displayed more
regimental pride than other infantry battalions, which belonged to
brigades containing units of more than one regiment.

ObTrav:  IMHO, keeping soldiers assigned to the same regiment, all
battalions of which are in the same brigade, would be _much_ easier than
similar assignments in the US Army circa  AD 1999.  After all, according
to FFW, all regular Imperial Army units of corps size or smaller add up
to less than two field armies, while there are eight numbered Imperial
Field Armies.  Given units of such size, serving together, maintaining
regimental cohesion seems a simple matter.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:01:52 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Gearhead question

Chris Peers wrote:
> 
> If a ship design places a self contained thruster (like a fusion rocket) on
> the outside of a hull, does the volume of the thruster count with the volume
> of the hull when determining Gs of thrust?

It surely does.  After all, the thruster still has to push _itself_
along with the rest of the ship.

Using High Guard, the acceleration of a ship is a TL-based percentage of
the ship's volume.  External drives would still require volume, and thus
would affect acceleration.

In FF&S2 (and, I suspect, in FF&S1), acceleration is based on mass,
rather than volume.  In this case, the mass of the thruster would need
to be accelerated, and would again affect ship performance.

Bottom line is, TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:25:31 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Skill Clusters

In a message dated 99-05-21 20:14:17 EDT, you write:

<< T4, p.37
 Cluster = pick 1
 Cascade = pick 1, all other skills in cascade at -1 from picked skill.
 
 The only Cascades are:
 Aircraft
 Blade Combat
 Gun Combat
 
 Spacecraft (Pilot and Ship's Boat) is a hybrid:  Its cascade if you pick
 Pilot, its cluster if you take Ship's Boat, i.e,
 Ship's Boat Skill Level = Pilot Skill Level -1. >>

Thanks, I wonder why I missed that.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:26:12 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Analog Aliens

In a message dated 99-05-21 17:52:32 EDT, you write:

<< > Shucks, no all we need is an energy eliminator, do you happen to have 
one?
 > -Stephen
 
 Yes, I do.  It's called "Monday mornings."  :-p
 
  >>

Now all we have to do us put one of the ship and away we go.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:33:44 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Skill Clusters

In a message dated 99-05-21 09:39:51 EDT, you write:

<<  >What happens when you roll on the Char Gen and you get something like 
 >Bussness, a skill cluster, do you then chose a sub skill or do you get 
 >level-0 in all skills (in that cluster)?
 
 Choose one skill out of the cluster.
 >>

Thanks
- -Stephen

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #659
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 22 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 660



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Hard SF (was Re: A plea...)
Traveller Calendar / Campaign Log Program
Re: Heavy Fighter from Supp 9
Re: 3I Raising Military Forces
Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Canon ref to Aslan & K'Kree ship colors?
Re: Gearhead question
Re: OTU Cannon (was "Re: Computer Technology")
Re: Traveller Webring
Re: Heavy Fighter from Supp 9
Re: Traveller Calendar / Campaign Log Program
Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
re: no one plays CT anymore
Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Computer Technology
Re: Gearhead question
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: no one plays CT anymore 
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #658 
CT...
Re: no one plays CT anymore 
Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)
Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Heavy Fighter from Supp 9

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:45:23 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Hard SF (was Re: A plea...)

At 03:38 PM 5/21/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> In a message dated 99-05-21 01:01:39 EDT, you write:

Right, just like that...

I have to tell you that the reason this thread started:

ObTrav: Traveller really kept a hard science fiction background,
and though I was young and believed in Jump drives, stasis swords
(a Niven thing) and it made perfect sense that there would be
galactic empires, that was what attracted me to Traveller most.

I have been lately thinking that IMTU there will no longer 
be empires (well, there currently aren't, but that is only because
there are only 5 colonies), and Jump drives will start working 
somewhat like rec.arts.sf.science, or the physics faq says they
should.

My suspension of disbelief gets harder to invoke...



- -- 
Should've been dead on a Sunday morning
banging my head / no time for mourning
ain't got no time  -- Creed
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 21:08:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Subject: Traveller Calendar / Campaign Log Program

For those who are interested in such things, I just finished
work on a rpg calendar / campaign log program which includes
the Imperial calendar we all know and love. Just thought I'd
mention it here in case anyone wants to check it out. It can
be had at my new rpg programs page which is at:

http://www.rpghost.com/jimv

thanks... -Jim

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 00:53:14 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Heavy Fighter from Supp 9

- ----------
> From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Heavy Fighter from Supp 9
> Date: Friday, 21 May, 1999 5:10 PM
> 
> In CT Supplement 9 (Fighting Ships) there is an entry for a Heavy Fighter
> (50dton) that seems to be the main fighter carried by the Tigress, the
> Atlantic, and a bunch of others.  Does anyone know if this class of
> fighters ever had a class name?

It's got the exact same USP as the Sylean class heavy fighter listed in The
Spinward Marches Campaign; probably the same design.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 21:59:30
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: 3I Raising Military Forces

At 09:45 PM 5/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>I always thought that the 197th's motto was "dick in a vise", based on
>their unit patch.  ;-)  BTW, were you with the 197th during the Gulf
>War?  (I was attached to the brigade S-2 section as an interrogator.)

Nope, the "Bite The Bullet Brigade" is what we called it, and I was long
gone by the time of the Gulf War.

>ObTrav:  IMHO, keeping soldiers assigned to the same regiment, all
>battalions of which are in the same brigade, would be _much_ easier than
>similar assignments in the US Army circa  AD 1999.  After all, according
>to FFW, all regular Imperial Army units of corps size or smaller add up
>to less than two field armies, while there are eight numbered Imperial
>Field Armies.  Given units of such size, serving together, maintaining
>regimental cohesion seems a simple matter.

One advantage of mixed regiment brigades is survivability.  A brigade in a
n isolated post can be wiped out without taking an old and honored unit
with it.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:08:59
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

At 01:15 PM 5/21/99 -0700, Bruce wrote:

>Here's my listing...I've picked movies I thought met the criteria of
>decent sf films:

>1970-1976

>"Dark Star"!!!!!!!

OK, how many of us thin Dark Star is the ultimate Traveller movie?  A bunch
of nut cases in a scout ship with a bomb only a Referee could love.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:16:32
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Canon ref to Aslan & K'Kree ship colors?

At 02:00 PM 5/21/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Hey gang,
>
>Got another tight deadline and ***ZERO*** extra time to do any research in
>my own archives.  Question is:  Is there a canon reference to the "standard"
>colors of Aslan & K'Kree ships?  I'm trying to rush some pictures for G:T
>"Aslan & K'Kree".

I've looked and I cannot find any reference to standard color schemes.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:19:48
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Gearhead question

At 10:18 PM 5/21/99 -0400, you wrote:
>If a ship design places a self contained thruster (like a fusion rocket) on
>the outside of a hull, does the volume of the thruster count with the volume
>of the hull when determining Gs of thrust?

Since acceleration is determined by mass, yes.  In the design sequence,
items held by grapples do count against the total displacement of the
craft.  The Camel Frieghter on my webpage (plug) is listed as a 1200 ton
ship, but it's really a 600 ton ship with the ability to attacj 600 tons of
cargo pods.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:21:30
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: OTU Cannon (was "Re: Computer Technology")

At 03:42 PM 5/21/99 EDT, you wrote:
>
>	Don't forget,   Marines use Cutlasses

You have a better sport for Marines cooped up onboard cramped assault ships?
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:27:31
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Webring

At 05:13 PM 5/21/99 -0400, you wrote:

>At the risk of sounding pendantic, I think I have little to offer s
>group like this.  Most of the posts are far more intelligent than I am,
>especially the gear-head stuff.  I'm forced mainly to be a lurker here
>because the ideas are better than my own.

Hell, my website was originally just Traveller: The Silly Era.  Most of
that was culled of the list.  Today my site includes:

The Silly Era.  Still mostly the work of other list members

The Departure Lounge.  Slavaged for the wreck of the IG pages, and my own
wanderings on the web

Gridlore Technologies.  My own ship designs, and the weapons pages mostly
converted from 3G3.

T4 Errata.  Pulled directly off of IG.

Software.  None of it by me.  I just host it.

Marine ranks.  This is the one page where every single item comes directly
from my imagination and work.


- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 01:29:59 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Heavy Fighter from Supp 9

In a message dated 99-05-22 01:05:08 EDT, you write:

<< It's got the exact same USP as the Sylean class heavy fighter listed in The
 Spinward Marches Campaign; probably the same design.
 
 Tom Schoene
  >>

Is this the same fighter from Starships (The artwork almost made up for the 
rest of the book)?  
- -Stephen
P.S. how would I go about designing a missile rack that can fire 1 missile at 
a time and then another missile needs to be reloaded, each missile would do 
1/2 damage?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 01:39:45 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller Calendar / Campaign Log Program

In a message dated 99-05-22 00:11:53 EDT, you write:

<< For those who are interested in such things, I just finished
 work on a rpg calendar / campaign log program which includes
 the Imperial calendar we all know and love. Just thought I'd
 mention it here in case anyone wants to check it out. It can
 be had at my new rpg programs page which is at:
 
 http://www.rpghost.com/jimv
  >>

At least the I-Calender gets rid of the anoying question "is this a leap 
year?"
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 17:42:52 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

>> know.  Its also the best thing that ever happened to C, apart from being
>> born from A and B...  Anyone actually *remember* Kerningham and Richie?
:P

Ken Ritchie turned up one day at my university CS department just to say hi
to one of the profs, and the secretarty asked who he was. Also an old
workmate of mine used to work with him at White Sands before he went to
Bell.

>I've got their book somewhere. Someday I'll have to finish it.

You mean you haven't got it commmited to memory?
Can't be a real programmer then.
<grin>

That, Stroustrup's "The C++ Programming Language"  and the ARM are the
bibles of eighties and early nineties software development.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:58:10 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: no one plays CT anymore

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: no one plays CT anymore
...
>>  At TL F you can actually make asteroid-hulled freighters that are more
>>efficient than anything except a dispersed (open-frame) hull - and has
...
>IMTU, I don't allow a class discount on asteroid hulls. Each rock has
>different centers of gravity, fracture lines, overall shape, etc., so it
>didn't seem appropriate that mass-production techniques would apply
>as written. In some ways, each asteroid ship must be custom made.
>
>I don't think this would break the cost savings Steven is talking about though.

  If it's just on the hull then no - and there shouldn't (IMHO) be a discount
on the hull-work. According to the rules there is a discount on the rest of
the ship (the drives/plant being all that really counts), which probably makes
a fair chunk of sense - they're merely adjusting the configurations of some
components to fit any variations that drilling the "hull" couldn't deal with;
later stages of most ship-building processes have had issues liek this.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 17:50:15 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

>Actually, there never was an "A", just a "B".

"B" is derived from BCPL, which is why there was no "A",


>As for K&R, I taught myself C in four hours by reading that book cover to
cover

Ditto. In order to complete a computer assignment at university

>.  C++ took more doing...

Not surprisingly, it's a far more complex language, being a superset of C

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 17:52:04 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

>>"Dark Star"!!!!!!!
>
>OK, how many of us thin Dark Star is the ultimate Traveller movie?  A bunch
>of nut cases in a scout ship with a bomb only a Referee could love.

Well, other than "Aliens", yep.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 18:01:22 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

>>Consider four machines.
>>
>>1 has both finite tape size and finite number of states
>>2. has an infinte number of states, but a finite tape.
>>3. has a finite number of states but at an infinte tape size
>>4. has both infinite tape and infinite states.
>>
>>List the machines in order of ability and state why
>
>Well, this is beyond my knowledge of the field (I've only studied state
>machines with finite number of states), but my guess is that 1 is the
>weakest, followed by 3, which of course is the "normal" Turing machine.
>I'd guess that 2 and 4 are identical, since with infinite state I don't
>think the tape matters much.  Am I right?  What's the real answer?

You got it.

That's why I said I was surprised I was one of the few who got it, I though
more people would realize, as you did, that 2 & 4 are identical.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 17:20:26 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Gearhead question

>From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Gearhead question
>
>If a ship design places a self contained thruster (like a fusion rocket) on
>the outside of a hull, does the volume of the thruster count with the volume
>of the hull when determining Gs of thrust?

Volume should only be important with Gs of thrust when you are using volume
as a proxy for mass. Mass is what gets pushed - volume is only relevant for
jump drive efficiency.

I'd rule the answer should definitly be 'yes', regardless of whether or not
the boost pack is being dropped before jump or not.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 16:51:15 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, 21 May 1999 3:36
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint


>
>Lucas has repeatedly stated that the main inspiration for Star Wars were
>the old 'Saturday Matinee' adventure movies and serials. As such, Star
>Wars has got a lot more in common with "Captain Blood" and "Robin Hood"
>(the Errol Flynn version) than it does "2001", "Silent Running" or
>"Planet of the Apes", 'social message' films each and every one.
>

Wasn't it based on a Japanese samurai movie?  The name escapes me at the
moment, but I'm sure I've heard that and seen the movie...?

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 02:44:24 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: no one plays CT anymore 

> I still like the idea in the old SF novel "Gallagher's Glacier". It
> involves an "asteroid" hulled ship. Made of *ice*. 

I missed that book.  But in the 'Trigon Discontinuity', some ancient Solomani 
made starships out of an ice isomer.  Since their culture roamed Terra, a 
*lot* of their technology was ice-based because it was readily availiable.  
<grin>
 
> It's a great idea. The ice makes tunneling easy, and you can use it for
> fuel. 

<nod>  Bit rough on re-entries, though...
 
> He spun the ship for gravity, and as time went on, all the rooms and
> corridors tended to work their way towards the outer hull. And a void
> appeared in the center. So every once in a while he'd melt surface ice
> and pump it back to the center. And he'd then re "drill" the corridors.
> The rooms could be moved by judicious melting and levering. 
> 
> Oh yeah, he smuggled. The customs inspectors never quite figured out
> the idea that he could make a compartment in the ice that wasn't
> attached to *anything* and then later, spend a few hours digging to it
> to unload. :-)

All he had to do was drop some dirt or something in the water and it wouldn't be visible any more.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 02:45:17 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #658 

> > > I always loved Rock and Pebble from Adventure to Zhodane. I would rather have
> > > Rock for a PC ship than a scout/courier...
> > 
> > IIRC, Pebble was *also* a hollow rock.  Mebbe not the best choice for a boat
> > that has to land...
> 
> I recall differently. Pebble was a "traditional" round-ended 
> cylinder.

Beats me.  It's been over a decade since I saw a copy of it.  A *lotta* brain 
damage has happened since then.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 17:01:32 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: CT...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, 21 May 1999 6:12
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Movie Stuff and Off Topic Posts



>
>Actually, I originally joined for Classic Traveller, but I realize no
>one plays that anymore, so I just glean what I can from the list (there
>are tons of good ideas here) and convert it.
>

When I get a loan of my old LBB's again, and the other stuff with it, I'll
be playing CT again!


- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 03:11:44 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: no one plays CT anymore 

> >From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
> >Subject: re: no one plays CT anymore
> ...
> >>  At TL F you can actually make asteroid-hulled freighters that are more
> >>efficient than anything except a dispersed (open-frame) hull - and has
> ...
> >IMTU, I don't allow a class discount on asteroid hulls. Each rock has
> >different centers of gravity, fracture lines, overall shape, etc., so it
> >didn't seem appropriate that mass-production techniques would apply
> >as written. In some ways, each asteroid ship must be custom made.
> >
> >I don't think this would break the cost savings Steven is talking about though.
> 
>   If it's just on the hull then no - and there shouldn't (IMHO) be a discount
> on the hull-work. According to the rules there is a discount on the rest of
> the ship (the drives/plant being all that really counts), which probably makes
> a fair chunk of sense - they're merely adjusting the configurations of some
> components to fit any variations that drilling the "hull" couldn't deal with;
> later stages of most ship-building processes have had issues liek this.

I dunno.  I see Walt's point on this, & I'm tempted to agree with him.  Rocks 
are just too randomly constructed.  No two are alike.  The class discount I'd 
always regarded as having to do with that shipyard's familiarity with the 
nuances of the class design.  I.E., if they discover that you *have* to lay 
down the control fibers in the bulkhead *before* you mount the fusion bottle 
and button up the hull instead of trying to snake them through after the 
bottle's been mounted & discovering that it just won't go, then you know that 
in the next ship of that class, you lay the fibers down first.  They won't get 
any where *near* the precision that a metal hull will give them as far as 
parts placement goes.  I'm not talking precision on the order of 0.0001 mm, 
I'm talking precision on the order of mebbe .5 mm.  I just don't see an 
asteroid being able to get down to this level of tolerance.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 03:40:14 -0500
From: Warlord <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)

At 07:42 AM 5/20/99 +0000, you wrote:

>Warlord wrote:

>> Well we do have that now (its been around since the early 60's. Its called..

>> core ram (it uses iron ferrite cores on a matrix of lines) once the data is 

>>written it stays till changed. But it is really too bulky to use in todays PC's 

>>but can still be used on Mainframes.

>> 

>

>Well, no , not unless it was a very, VERY old mainframe. Modern mainframes use

>conventional DRAM.


  Some Military systems and older businesses still have computers with core ram in them. It takes decades for some systems to be upgraded.

  Oh one of the other advantages of core ram (if I remember correctly Please correct me if I am wrong) is that low to mid EMP blasts have no effect on this type where as CMOS and EPROM would be fried with even a low level EMP or Electro Static exposer.


>However, that got me to wondering. They're doing some amazing things with 'not

>quite nano'technology these days, microscopic gears, electric cars half the

>size of a rice grain, arrays of aimable mirrors, etc. I wonder whether ferrite

>core memory would work on that scale. While this would _still_ be a lot more

>powerhungry and larger than conventional ram, it would be a lot smaller than

>any handmade core memory (and it was _all_ hand made...I don't think they ever

>automated that process). It would make computers much larger. It would also be

>a severe bitchkitty to make, at least the first few times. Fortunately it

>doesn't depend on round conductors, so I would think it could be done using

>current etching and deposition technology. But IANAEE, so I don't know.

>


 With sub micron stuff they could make it today (be really really expensive) and would be susceptible to Static and EMP.

   

- -- 

   Joe Kirby      | <color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Come Check out
the New Revolution in Internet Business

</color>warlord@means.net |      
<color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>At</color>
<underline><color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby</color></underline><color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param> </color>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:51:28 +0100
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)

In message <990520.184128.2N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>, Leonard
Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes
>In mail you write:
>
>> No great Traveller ones, but we had a Paranoia scenario where someone
>> was accused of being a communist - 
>>
>> "You're not a communist, are you, friend Troubleshooter?"
>>
>> "Of course not, comrade Computer"
>
>I have to ask. Was this a slip of the lip, or deliberate?
>
An unfortunate Freudian.
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 09:28:15 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:
> 
> >>"Dark Star"!!!!!!!
> >
> >OK, how many of us thin Dark Star is the ultimate Traveller movie?  A bunch
> >of nut cases in a scout ship with a bomb only a Referee could love.
> 
> Well, other than "Aliens", yep.

I don't know... my players and most of my games seemed to degenerate
into "Space Balls". At least until we stopped drinking beer during game
sessions ;>
- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 08:13:11 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Heavy Fighter from Supp 9

- ----------
> From: SRKOALA@aol.com
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Heavy Fighter from Supp 9
> Date: Saturday, 22 May, 1999 1:29 AM
> 
> In a message dated 99-05-22 01:05:08 EDT, you write:
> 
> << It's got the exact same USP as the Sylean class heavy fighter listed
in The
>  Spinward Marches Campaign; probably the same design.
>  
>  Tom Schoene
>   >>
> 
> Is this the same fighter from Starships (The artwork almost made up for
the 
> rest of the book)?  

Not a clue.  I don't think I have this book.

> -Stephen
> P.S. how would I go about designing a missile rack that can fire 1
missile at 
> a time and then another missile needs to be reloaded, each missile would
do 
> 1/2 damage?

??? Most missile racks are designed to be reloaded with full-sized
missiles. Why wold you want to use a smaller one? 

The details of this sort of thing depend heavily on what design rules
you're using, and there are several to choose from. I'm really only doing
GT, where this isn't really worth bothering (a GT missile rack has 70+
reloads.)


Tom Schoene

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #660
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 23 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 661



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Monomolecules
Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)
Re: Traveller Webring
Re: Canon ref to Aslan & K'Kree ship colors?
Re: Traveller Webring
Re: FLGS in Harvard area
Asteroid-hulled non-starships
Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
note from your local public library
Star Wars inspirations (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint...)
Re: Traveller Webring
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
re: TML?
Re: Heavy Fighter from Supp 9
Re: _Brilliant Lances_
OT - Astronomy in Classroom
Your own site (was Re: Traveller Webring)
The Planets
Re:Missiles and stuff
Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: _Brilliant Lances_
Deckplan Index updated
Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: no one plays CT anymore

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 08:15:07 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

- ----------
> From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
> Date: Saturday, 22 May, 1999 2:51 AM
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
> Date: Friday, 21 May 1999 3:36
> Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint
> 
> 
> >
> >Lucas has repeatedly stated that the main inspiration for Star Wars were
> >the old 'Saturday Matinee' adventure movies and serials. 
[snip]
> 
> Wasn't it based on a Japanese samurai movie?  The name escapes me at the
> moment, but I'm sure I've heard that and seen the movie...?
> 

There are some plot elements borrowed from _Hidden Fortreess_ but to say
that _Star Wars_ is based on _Hidden Fortress_ is stretching the point
pretty far.  The style is pure matinee adventure movie and very, very
different from _Hidden Fortress_.  

There are other sources too.  Some of the space combat scenes are taken
from various war movies, including one line that's a direct homage to _The
Dam Busters_.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 07:08:21 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Monomolecules

Russell Bornschlegel wrote:

> > > >Yes...they're called diamonds. Also synthetic rubies, sapphires, etc.
> > Nylon
> > > >monofilament is a monomolecular structure.
> 
> I don't believe this is the case, either for the gems or
> the nylon. Cite?

Well, for diamond, I have seen them. At the Tucson Gem and Mineral Show a few
years back (one of the worlds largest) I saw a number of 'perfect' octahedral
diamond crystals: you only get a crystal of the base crystalling form with a
single crystal. All the bonds in a diamond are covalent bonds, ergo, a single
perfect crystal of diamond is a single molecule. Manmade diamonds are also
single molecules.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 14:49:39 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

Come on....their alien was really cool, especially when the used a syringe
on it and went off around the ship like a punctured baloon.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 22 May 1999 10:57
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)


>
>>>"Dark Star"!!!!!!!
>>
>>OK, how many of us thin Dark Star is the ultimate Traveller movie?  A
bunch
>>of nut cases in a scout ship with a bomb only a Referee could love.
>
>Well, other than "Aliens", yep.
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 07:16:03 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Non-volatile memory (was Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL)

Warlord wrote:
> 

> >Well, no , not unless it was a very, VERY old mainframe. Modern mainframes use
> >conventional DRAM.
> 
> Some Military systems and older businesses still have computers with core ram in them. It takes decades for some systems to be upgraded.
> Oh one of the other advantages of core ram (if I remember correctly Please correct me if I am wrong) is that low to mid EMP blasts have no effect on this type where as CMOS and EPROM would be fried with even a low level EMP or Electro Static exposer.

I'm not sure...EMP would induce currents in all of the lines, which in some
cores are quite long. I would suspect that ramdom currents passing through the
wires would scramble them quite well, as it didn't take much current to flip a
bit. Things with longer conductors are _more_ susceptible to EMP currents than
small ones, as the current induced by a given EMP is proportional to the
conductor length. The reason modern solid state electronics are susceptible is
that they are simply unable to handle uch current at all. Th reason tube-based
electronics are resistant to EMP is that they're self-limiting, after a
certain point, all more current does is make the thing glow a little brighter.
They also handle quite high currents anyway, which is why they are good for
high current switching applications.

> With sub micron stuff they could make it today (be really really expensive) and would be susceptible to Static and EMP.

You're probably right. Though the expense _would_ go down as production increased.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 14:31:30 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller Webring

On Fri, 21 May 1999 20:11:19 -0400, Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
wrote:

>> I've seen that before, not just limited to the Traveller webring.  Two
>> thoughts on how to handle.  First, email the webmaster of the offending site
>> and point out the oversight.  Second, email the person in charge of the
>> webring pointing out the sites that do not have the link.
 
>I've never been invited to join it, and although I support Classic
>Traveller, I don't know how I can put up anything better than you guys
>already have.

As far as I know, you don't have to be _invited_ to join the
webring, and you don't have to put up a superfantastic site - it
just has to be a site supporting the topic of the ring - that is,
any version of Traveller.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 14:34:51 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Canon ref to Aslan & K'Kree ship colors?

On Fri, 21 May 1999 20:11:19 -0400, "Jesse DeGraff"
<fenris@slip.net> wrote:

>Got another tight deadline and ***ZERO*** extra time to do any research in
>my own archives.  Question is:  Is there a canon reference to the "standard"
>colors of Aslan & K'Kree ships?  I'm trying to rush some pictures for G:T
>"Aslan & K'Kree".

There are none that I'm aware of; the only thing I can recall
concerning ship markings is that Aslan have lots of Trokh
curlicues (male script) along edges, module joins, and so on.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 14:41:47 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller Webring

On Fri, 21 May 1999 20:11:19 -0400, Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
wrote:

>> All I did was concentrate on *one* sector in *one* time frame and build from there.  The result?
>> Hyphen gave me 4 stars, & I'm not *DONE* yet.  <grin>
 
>> *ANYBODY* can do this.
 
>At the risk of sounding pendantic, I think I have little to offer s
>group like this.  Most of the posts are far more intelligent than I am,
>especially the gear-head stuff.  I'm forced mainly to be a lurker here
>because the ideas are better than my own.

That's what _I_ thought concerning myself lo these many years
ago.  It's a crock, although I didn't start to realize it until
the early RICE papers started to draw reactions from other
people...

Jory, a word of advice - take your ideas and POST THEM.  Ask what
people think.  Decide whether their comments are worth anything.
Revise as you feel necessary.  Post again.  Post questions about
things you're not clear on.  Post your ideas.  Post stories about
what happens at your gaming sessions.  We're not better than you;
we're just most of us here longer.  Now, prove it!
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 1999 10:35:46 -0400
From: Scott E Kullberg <sekullbe@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: FLGS in Harvard area

Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com> writes:

> Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no> write:
> >I'm visiting Harvard for a few days. Do any of you know of any good
> >FLGS in the Harvard area?
> 
> I'll take a stab at you meaning Harvard University in Cambridge, MA.
> 
> Right in Harvard Square, in the Garage Mall, Pandemonium Books & Games.
> http://www.tiac.net/users/pandemo/
> 

Down Massachusetts Ave. a couple of blocks (towards MIT & Boston)
there's The Games People Play. Not as good for RPG stuff but lots more
boardgames.

- -- 
Scott E Kullberg <*>  sekullbe@{mediaone.net|mit.edu} --><--

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 08:26:02 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Asteroid-hulled non-starships

  As an aside, it suddenly occurs to me that metal-hulled non-Jump ships
should lose to in-system rocks; the hull is such a major cost component
that even a dispersed (MCr -50%) configuration costs 10-20% more. And in
this context it's only the drives (M&P) that affect cost, so simply slotting
a pre-assembled module into a prepared cavity in the rocks rear surface
would provide the needed cost advantage from the series discount.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 08:37:48
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

At 02:49 PM 5/22/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Come on....their alien was really cool, especially when the used a syringe
>on it and went off around the ship like a punctured baloon.

Well, it *was*...
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 10:24:25 PDT
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: note from your local public library

In the Toronto Public Library (where I work) we have recieved a book 
entitled:
The Science of Star Wars : An Astrophysicists Independent Examination of 
Space Travel, Aliens, Planets, and Robots as protrayed in the Star Wars 
films and books
author:  Jeanne Cavelos
St Martin's Press, 1999

Not a bad little book written more at pop science level or even juvenelle 
literature but its classified as adult.  Some traveller players would 
probably find it simple but at least is a start.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 11:35:10 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Star Wars inspirations (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint...)

The Roc wrote:
> >Lucas has repeatedly stated that the main inspiration for Star Wars were
> >the old 'Saturday Matinee' adventure movies and serials [...snip...]
> 
> Wasn't it based on a Japanese samurai movie?  The name escapes me at the
> moment, but I'm sure I've heard that and seen the movie...?

Kurosawa's _The Hidden Fortress_, I think, provided most 
of the plot, and, oddly enough, the characters of C3PO and 
R2D2. But that of course was not the sole inspiration; the 
aforementioned adventure movies and Campbell's nonfiction 
myth-analysis book _The Hero With A Thousand Faces_ were 
critical to the development of Star Wars.

Now, of course, the most important inspirations to draw 
upon for Star Wars movies are marketing's plans for adorable
toys. *cough*

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 14:40:22 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Webring

> Jory, a word of advice - take your ideas and POST THEM.  Ask what
> people think.  Decide whether their comments are worth anything.
> Revise as you feel necessary.  Post again.  Post questions about
> things you're not clear on.  Post your ideas.  Post stories about
> what happens at your gaming sessions.  We're not better than you;
> we're just most of us here longer.  Now, prove it!

Thanks, I areally appreciate that.  When I first started this list a
year and a half ago, I did ask some pretty off-the-wall
things like Very High Tech stuff..  Got some great replies from the
list.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 21:41:02 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

Leonard Erickson wrote:

<snip long discussion on effects of vacuum exposure>

> But skin is a *lot* tougher than we given it credit for. It'll hold
> together, even though you *will* swell up pretty bad. 

<snip> 

> And the other studies tend to bear this out. You won't get a lot of
> damage even with prolonged exposure. At least not *externally*.
> Internally, some time *after* you lose conciousness, your lungs will
> fill with fluid and said fluid will start to boil. Your eyes will dry
> out, and maybe even start to freezing. And there's a chance of things
> like ruptured lungs if you tried to hold your breath, or ruptured
> intestines if you tried not to let everything go out the other end. 

I recall an old Arthur C. Clarke's short story (don't recall 
which, maybe in the "Solar Wind" antology) where a *lot* of 
people had to leave a spaceship to save their lifes and board 
another, in hard vacuum. For whatever the reason ,there was no way to 
connect both starships, and only a few vacc suits around.

As the story went, somebody convinced the people about the toughness 
of their skin, and convinced them to expel all possible air  of their 
lungs, close their eyes, and "jump" through vacuum from one ship to 
the other, for a short vacuum exposition...

Makes you remember who the masters of hard SF were.. and makes for an 
interesting Traveller situation.
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 20:41:27 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: TML?

SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:

>BTW, I myself have a personal movie-review website, with capsule reviews
>of nearly 1,000 films, with a disproportionately large percentage of them
>being SF films...
>	http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn/movies/
>if anyone is interested.

Apologies - this was meant to go to a friend with the URL, not back to the
TML :-/

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 16:55:55 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Heavy Fighter from Supp 9

In a message dated 99-05-22 09:41:42 EDT, you write:

<< > Is this the same fighter from Starships (The artwork almost made up for
 the 
 > rest of the book)?  
 
 Not a clue.  I don't think I have this book.
 
 > -Stephen
 > P.S. how would I go about designing a missile rack that can fire 1
 missile at 
 > a time and then another missile needs to be reloaded, each missile would
 do 
 > 1/2 damage?
 
 ??? Most missile racks are designed to be reloaded with full-sized
 missiles. Why wold you want to use a smaller one? 
 
 The details of this sort of thing depend heavily on what design rules
 you're using, and there are several to choose from. I'm really only doing
 GT, where this isn't really worth bothering (a GT missile rack has 70+
 reloads.) >>

What I'm going for is a fighter (10-20 ton) that has a few light missiles for 
shooting at other fighters.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 17:49:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: _Brilliant Lances_

>At 01:01 AM 5/21/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>Also, from a scaling standpoint it was odd that a scout ship had 400
>>surface hit locations, but so would a destroyer 10 times the size.
>>But still fun.
>
>Except that the scout would probably have some survace target on every
>square meter, while the destroyer would have streches of bare armor that
>could take a hit without losing some vital antenna.
>
>That's one of the things I liked about BL, you can scrub off surface
>features and win a fight without ever penetrating the enemy armor belt.
>--
>
>Doug Berry

And a destroyer has a lot more scrubbable targets, too.  While with a
scout, every hit nails something vital. (At least, it does when _I'm_
piloting the scout.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 17:49:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: OT - Astronomy in Classroom

My physics class voted to do an optional unit on astronomy, which isn't in
the textbook. (I finished the core units faster than any other teacher.)

I've dug out some nice drawings on the web of things like the HR diagram,
the Sun's lifecyclem black holes, and so on. The problem is that they are
all in colour, and the computer I have to use at work (a Windows NT box)
has no graphics program installed, and only a B&W printer for making
overheads.  (Yes, the software loadout _was_ selected by a committee of
bureaucrats, rather than the users. Why did you have to ask?)

Can someone please recommend some good web sites that have simple drawings
of this type of thing, preferably simple line art?  Many thanks in advance.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 18:06:07 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Your own site (was Re: Traveller Webring)

At 05:13 PM 5/21/99 -0400, you wrote:

>At the risk of sounding pendantic, I think I have little to offer a
>group like this.  Most of the posts are far more intelligent than I am,
>especially the gear-head stuff.  I'm forced mainly to be a lurker here
>because the ideas are better than my own.

 Here's an easy one. Start with ONE page which is your own
personal launchpad to the Traveller websites you find most
useful/fun/whatever. Do this as a page instead of as a set
of browser bookmarks. If the page duplicates Traveller
Webring sites completely, so be it. If it contains even ONE
site beyond the Webrings related to Traveller (like NASAs
public stuff, for example, or that SOF site mentioned last
week) then you have a useful site for others to peruse.

 One of the easiest ways to give the site content (as opposed
to links) is to organized some portion of your own play
notes. The "Worlds of the Spinward Main" page on my
site is a good example. It started as my own collation of
published info-bits about the worlds my players were likely
to visit (or had visited), and acquired other notes as play
progressed. Names, places and events that make them
YOUR worlds. Sure, my versions of these worlds isn't
the one, true version since "G:T Behind the Claw," but
so what? It's the reality my players know, and it is
interesting and useful to us, and hopefully to others.

 GC

http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html
 and follow the Campaign or Essays links

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 23:31:38 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: The Planets

Hi all,

Those of you in the UK who are following the BBC TV series 'The Planets'
(the ten part 1hour episode tour of the solar system on at the moment) may
be interested in this.

The Internet Bookshop http://www.bookshop.co.uk/ has it at a 40% discount
on the tie in book from the 19.99 RRP (it works out at 14.98 with P&P).

Cheers,

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 10:17:24 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re:Missiles and stuff

A
>From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: Re: Heavy Fighter from Supp 9
>
>- --
>??? Most missile racks are designed to be reloaded with full-sized
>missiles. Why wold you want to use a smaller one? 
>
>The details of this sort of thing depend heavily on what design rules
>you're using, and there are several to choose from. I'm really only doing
>GT, where this isn't really worth bothering (a GT missile rack has 70+
>reloads.)

This number of reloads is precisely why I'd be looking to redesign the
missile bay into something smaller and potentially single-use.

My Gurps guru is designing something on these lines, but imagine if you
have 10 reloads, 2 firing ports and 2 crewstations. You double your combat
RoF, and lets face it, who could use all 70 reloads anyway ?

Of course, missiles are insanely design-system dependant - do people want a
repost of the Famile Spofulam Anti-Shipping Missile/Customs Cutter (comes
with three warheads - det laser, conventional laser and auditor) ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 19:07:52 -0500
From: Mark A Nordstrand <markn@visi.com>
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

> >"Dark Star"!!!!!!!
> 
> OK, how many of us thin Dark Star is the ultimate Traveller movie?  A bunch
> of nut cases in a scout ship with a bomb only a Referee could love.

Or how many characters I've played named Pinback?

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 19:56:13 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: _Brilliant Lances_

At 05:49 PM 5/22/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>At 01:01 AM 5/21/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>
>>>Also, from a scaling standpoint it was odd that a scout ship had
400
>>>surface hit locations, but so would a destroyer 10 times the size.
>>>But still fun.
>>
>>Except that the scout would probably have some survace target on
every
>>square meter, while the destroyer would have streches of bare armor
that
>>could take a hit without losing some vital antenna.
>>
>>That's one of the things I liked about BL, you can scrub off
surface
>>features and win a fight without ever penetrating the enemy armor
belt.
>>--
>>
>>Doug Berry
>
>And a destroyer has a lot more scrubbable targets, too.  While with
a
>scout, every hit nails something vital. (At least, it does when
_I'm_
>piloting the scout.)


	It really *doesn't* matter that each hit location is much bigger on
the destroyer than it is on the scout. What matters is the chances of
hitting a specific item. And since that depends on the *proportion*
of the item's area to the overall area of that ship, this scaling is
*correct*.  Anything else would be broken ...  And note that,
proportionally, a single antenna winds up with a much smaller hit
probability on a destroyer than on the scout.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 20:32:36 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Deckplan Index updated

The big Deckplan Index at my site has been updated to include all of the 
Challenges and the contents of T4: Starships. Any further info anyone may 
have regarding _published_ Traveller deckplans is welcome...

 Now a question: Would those who use that list prefer it stay a reference for 
Traveller deckplans specifically, or would the addition of plans from other 
games that are useable in Traveller be a welcome addition. The first things 
that come to mind are several Star Wars RPG articles and supplements...

GC

http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 23:46:48 -0400
From: T Green <tgreen3@tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

At 05:42 PM 5/22/99 +1200, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:

>That, Stroustrup's "The C++ Programming Language"  and the ARM are the
>bibles of eighties and early nineties software development.

I've always maintained that Stroustrup called his language "C++" instead
of "++C" as fair warning that he hadn't finished tinkering with it yet.   


- --------
For the non-C types on the list:  "C" followed "B" alphabeticly, but "C++"
followed "C" because "C" has an "increment operator" written as "++".

It makes a difference whether the "++" appears before or after a variable:

           Start with x = 3, then...

     y = x++;                   y = ++x;

     x holds 4                  x holds 4
     y holds 3                  y holds 4

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 00:38:25 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

In a message dated 5/22/99 4:54:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, markn@visi.com 
writes:

<< Dark Star"!!!!!!!
 > 
 > OK, how many of us thin Dark Star is the ultimate Traveller movie?  A bunch
 > of nut cases in a scout ship with a bomb only a Referee could love.
 
 Or how many characters I've played named Pinback?
 
 Mark >>

Darkstar and Silent Running get my votes for best space movies...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 21:53:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: no one plays CT anymore

In mail you write:

>> I still like the idea in the old SF novel "Gallagher's Glacier". It
>> involves an "asteroid" hulled ship. Made of *ice*. 
>
>> It's a great idea. The ice makes tunneling easy, and you can use it for
>> fuel. 
>
> <nod>  Bit rough on re-entries, though...

That's what shuttles and landers are for. :-)

  
>> He spun the ship for gravity, and as time went on, all the rooms and
>> corridors tended to work their way towards the outer hull. And a void
>> appeared in the center. So every once in a while he'd melt surface ice
>> and pump it back to the center. And he'd then re "drill" the corridors.
>> The rooms could be moved by judicious melting and levering. 
>> 
>> Oh yeah, he smuggled. The customs inspectors never quite figured out
>> the idea that he could make a compartment in the ice that wasn't
>> attached to *anything* and then later, spend a few hours digging to it
>> to unload. :-)
>
> All he had to do was drop some dirt or something in the water and it 
> wouldn't be visible any more.

Ever seen large chunks of *natural* ice? It's a whitish translucent
material. It ain't clear.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #661
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 23 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 662



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
Re:Missiles and stuff
Re: Missiles and stuff 
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
Re: Hard SF (was Re: A plea...)
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: no one plays CT anymore
Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX (BUY it in shops, not direct)
Re: no one plays CT anymore 
Re: no one plays CT anymore
Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 
Re: no one plays CT anymore 
Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 
Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 
Re: A plea for cinematic restraint
questions on Rogue CharGen
Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Deckplan Index updated
Re: Traveller Webring

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 17:26:39 +1200
From: "Mike Smith" <mjsmith@staff.salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

> >As for K&R, I taught myself C in four hours by reading that book cover to
> cover
> Ditto. In order to complete a computer assignment at university

And spent the next five years refining your skills, yes?

> >Actually, there never was an "A", just a "B".
> "B" is derived from BCPL, which is why there was no "A",

A few years ago I had a book by the head(?) of the C++ team (Bjarne
Strousup?) about the derivations through to C++ - really interesting
reading.

A refers to assembly, B refers to 'B' computer programming language.  Ken
Thompson decided A sucked (not platform independant) while writing unix on
the PDP-7, and up popped 'B'.  Dennis Ritchie upskilled 'B' and they renamed
it to 'C' about the same year I was born <grin>.  Famous last words "This
capability [C's low-level-high-level-mix], however, can cause problems if
the programmer is not careful".

A+Ken->B
B+Ritchie+Kernigan->C
C + SIMULA + little bits of algol and ada -> C++

The hardest thing I found going from C to C++ was working out just why it
was *better* than what I had (note the upgrade obtrav here).  It started
with single-line comments and function pre-declarations.  Operator
overloading made me really want to use it, then classes became kinda
addictive.  Funny how it took another two or three years after its inception
to actually catch on - I remember looking at it around 1990, iirc.  Ansi
didn't stamp (on) it until about 1989.

> Somewhere, I have (or used to have, it may be on the HD that died a few
> years back) a Pascal "code obfuscator". What it does is goes thru and
> changes all variable, constant, function and procedure names to
> arbitrary character strings (AAAAA AAAAB AAAAAC etc). Then it removes
> all indentation from the code. And finally, it combines short lines
> into long ones (after all the ";" is the statement seperator), while
> removing any blank lines. Oh yeah, it removes all comments too.

I wrote a C version of that - called corncob (CORNy Code OBfuscator) - did
the BBS circuit, not really the internet.  Remember those 'do the most in x
lines without it looking like anything recognisable' competitions?  I wrote
it for that :)  Some other bugger wrote a code-un-obfuscator as well, that
commented things too...

> As a general rule, plugging something into something 2 TLs older will
> *fry* the newer device. Examples:
> Hook a 20ma current loop device to RS-232.
> Hook RS-232 to TTL
> Hook 5v TTL to 3v TTL
One of my areas in RL is making 1999 stuff plug into 1960's stuff -
interfaces and the like - such as plugging Westinghouse 0/-16v
26-bit-wide-busses into telephone modems for CAD systems.  I guess that
third-device interfacing will always be possible regardless of the TL gap.

> BTW, the IBM 2311 disk drive used *hydraulics* to drove the head
> positioning mechanism!

Ouch!  It would suck if the positioning feedback mechanism stuck <grin>
Re-aligning the first voice-coil 8" drives was fun - get the opto in the
wrong place and they could almost break the housing off the back of the
drive!  Not what you'd call minimum moving mass heads :)  Bloody hurt when
you got a finger in the wrong place, too.

Mike.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 00:50:34 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re:Missiles and stuff

>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: Re:Missiles and stuff
.
>Of course, missiles are insanely design-system dependant - do people want a
>repost of the Famile Spofulam Anti-Shipping Missile/Customs Cutter (comes
>with three warheads - det laser, conventional laser and auditor) ?

  Aren't a couple of those immoral?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 04:15:56 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Missiles and stuff 

> >From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
> >Subject: Re:Missiles and stuff
> ...
> >Of course, missiles are insanely design-system dependant - do people want a
> >repost of the Famile Spofulam Anti-Shipping Missile/Customs Cutter (comes
> >with three warheads - det laser, conventional laser and auditor) ?
> 
>   Aren't a couple of those immoral?

Only if they're not married.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 19:23:58 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

Greeting Sophonts,

On 21/5/99, Doug said :

>When the movie was made, people had access to twenty years of
>high-altitude/vacuum testing done by NASA and the USAF.  The facts weren't
>to hard to find.

Let's not forget artistic licence now.  "Dante's Peak", not a bad yarn
after all is said and done, showed both kinds of lava flowing out of the
same vent.  That's never actually happened on Earth.  Still, good effects,
and effects are one of the major points of selling sci-fi films.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 22:04:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Hard SF (was Re: A plea...)

In mail you write:

> ObTrav: Traveller really kept a hard science fiction background,
> and though I was young and believed in Jump drives, stasis swords
> (a Niven thing) and it made perfect sense that there would be
> galactic empires, that was what attracted me to Traveller most.
>
> I have been lately thinking that IMTU there will no longer 
> be empires (well, there currently aren't, but that is only because
> there are only 5 colonies), and Jump drives will start working 
> somewhat like rec.arts.sf.science, or the physics faq says they
> should.

How is that? The only problem with Jump drive that I'm aware of is the
way Traveller *assumes* simultaneity across distance.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 22:11:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> <snip long discussion on effects of vacuum exposure>
>
>> But skin is a *lot* tougher than we given it credit for. It'll hold
>> together, even though you *will* swell up pretty bad. 
>
> <snip> 
>
>> And the other studies tend to bear this out. You won't get a lot of
>> damage even with prolonged exposure. At least not *externally*.
>> Internally, some time *after* you lose conciousness, your lungs will
>> fill with fluid and said fluid will start to boil. Your eyes will dry
>> out, and maybe even start to freezing. And there's a chance of things
>> like ruptured lungs if you tried to hold your breath, or ruptured
>> intestines if you tried not to let everything go out the other end. 
>
> I recall an old Arthur C. Clarke's short story (don't recall 
> which, maybe in the "Solar Wind" antology) where a *lot* of 
> people had to leave a spaceship to save their lifes and board 
> another, in hard vacuum. For whatever the reason ,there was no way to 
> connect both starships, and only a few vacc suits around.

You'll find it in the novel "Earthlight". It's also in one of the
stories about constructing the first space station. There's an
accident, and some of the modules break loose. By the time they've
managed to reach them, one is getting low on air due to a slow leak. 

> As the story went, somebody convinced the people about the toughness 
> of their skin, and convinced them to expel all possible air  of their 
> lungs, close their eyes, and "jump" through vacuum from one ship to 
> the other, for a short vacuum exposition...

Based on his experiences scuba diving, he realized that 15 psi of
pressure difference is the same regardless of the *absolute* pressures
involved. So the effects of sudden exposure to vacuum are mostly the
same as those of being brought to the surface suddenly from 30 feet
down. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 21:57:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: no one plays CT anymore

In mail you write:

> I dunno.  I see Walt's point on this, & I'm tempted to agree with
> him.  Rocks are just too randomly constructed.  No two are alike.
> The class discount I'd always regarded as having to do with that
> shipyard's familiarity with the nuances of the class design.  I.E.,
> if they discover that you *have* to lay down the control fibers in
> the bulkhead *before* you mount the fusion bottle and button up the
> hull instead of trying to snake them through after the bottle's been
> mounted & discovering that it just won't go, then you know that in
> the next ship of that class, you lay the fibers down first.  They
> won't get any where *near* the precision that a metal hull will give
> them as far as parts placement goes.  I'm not talking precision on
> the order of 0.0001 mm, I'm talking precision on the order of mebbe
> .5 mm.  I just don't see an asteroid being able to get down to this
> level of tolerance.

Sorry, but we can get that sort of tolerance in cutting rock *now*.
Check out the amount of error in joining up various recent tunneling
projects like the Chunnel. Over a span of *miles* the error was only a
few inches.

Lasers are very useful. They let you measure distances with extreme
accuracy, and maintain straight bores with equal accuracy.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 11:43:13 +0200
From: "Jens Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: "First In" hits Dallas, TX (BUY it in shops, not direct)

On Fri, 21 May 1999 16:41:02 +0200, Volker Greimann wrote:

>
>>>Are there any good gaming stores in the Dallas Area.
>>>I'm stuck in Grapevine for a few more days and some
>>>good reading would be nice.
>>
>>You guys do know that you can just mail-order the book directly from SJG,
>>right?
>Yes, but to increase the overall visibility / prerformance of the GT-Line
>we need to ensure that the SHOPS carry the books
>If we all go and direct order, the shops will sell less, order less, and
>so, less people 
>will be exposed to the books. Classic death-spiral.
>Which is why i am still willing to wait for the shipment to the stores in
>Germany to arrive.
>(Aliens 1 being the latest in the stores over here)
>Volker

Hi Volker,

I`ve bought GT Hardcover, Aliens I, Far Trader (47,5 DM) and Star Mercs here in Hannover/Germany! Does Your Gaming shop don't 
have access to G Ware from Vincennes?

Jens, Germany

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 07:23:00 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: no one plays CT anymore 

> In mail you write:
> 
> > I dunno.  I see Walt's point on this, & I'm tempted to agree with
> > him.  Rocks are just too randomly constructed.  No two are alike.
> > The class discount I'd always regarded as having to do with that
> > shipyard's familiarity with the nuances of the class design.  I.E.,
> > if they discover that you *have* to lay down the control fibers in
> > the bulkhead *before* you mount the fusion bottle and button up the
> > hull instead of trying to snake them through after the bottle's been
> > mounted & discovering that it just won't go, then you know that in
> > the next ship of that class, you lay the fibers down first.  They
> > won't get any where *near* the precision that a metal hull will give
> > them as far as parts placement goes.  I'm not talking precision on
> > the order of 0.0001 mm, I'm talking precision on the order of mebbe
> > .5 mm.  I just don't see an asteroid being able to get down to this
> > level of tolerance.
> 
> Sorry, but we can get that sort of tolerance in cutting rock *now*.
> Check out the amount of error in joining up various recent tunneling
> projects like the Chunnel. Over a span of *miles* the error was only a
> few inches.

But those tunnels aren't flying around in space.  What I'm saying is, an 
asteroid probably isn't gonna be homogenous throughout itself.  There's going 
to be flaws and defects.  They'll have to be taken into account.  And not 
every rock will have the same defects in the same places.  Some of these 
defects will affect the strength of the rock around them.  IMNSFBHO, that's 
why the 20% wasted space rule is there.  If you can't place a vital component 
like a manuver drive or a fusion bottle in the exact location as every other 
boat in the class because of a structural defect in the rock, you're going to 
have to work a bit longer to place it.  Otherwise, it could crack the rock 
from the added stress.
 
> Lasers are very useful. They let you measure distances with extreme
> accuracy, and maintain straight bores with equal accuracy.

True.  But you're not drilling a tunnel for an aqueduct or a car tunnel, you're boring out a random chunk of raw rock for a space/star ship.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 00:03:51 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: no one plays CT anymore

>> IIRC, Pebble was *also* a hollow rock.  Mebbe not the best choice for a boat
>> that has to land...

>I recall differently. Pebble was a "traditional" round-ended cylinder.

Pebble is a standard cylindrical 25 DT ships boat that also operates as a fuel
shuttle. It holds 10 DT of fuel, 4.5 DT of cargo, and 5 passengers.

Converting it into GT gives:

Design: GTL 10, 25-ton SL Hull, DR 100, Cockpit/Systems, 4 Maneuver, 10 Fuel, 
 0.5 Passenger Couches (capacity 6)

Statistics: Emass 52.8, Lmass 75.3, MCr 5.55, HP +5250, Hull Size Modifier +6
            Accel 2.12 Gs (3.03 Empty), Jump 0, Air Speed 1852

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 07:44:53 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 

>   As an aside, it suddenly occurs to me that metal-hulled non-Jump ships
> should lose to in-system rocks; the hull is such a major cost component
> that even a dispersed (MCr -50%) configuration costs 10-20% more. And in
> this context it's only the drives (M&P) that affect cost, so simply slotting
> a pre-assembled module into a prepared cavity in the rocks rear surface
> would provide the needed cost advantage from the series discount.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

I can see them as cheep monitors in systems where you *need* heavy metal but don't want jump-capable ships, like on picket duty in an interdicted system like Coventry (Reavers' Deep 1723), an exile colony for the Confederacy of Duncinae.  I can even see a couple 'factory ships' building these cheep monitors on site in the end user's system, packing in the needed components like computers, armaments, and drives, and manufacturing other things like bulkheads and wiring on site.

Whatcha think?

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 07:47:43 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: no one plays CT anymore 

> In mail you write:
> 
> >> I still like the idea in the old SF novel "Gallagher's Glacier". It
> >> involves an "asteroid" hulled ship. Made of *ice*. 
> >
> >> It's a great idea. The ice makes tunneling easy, and you can use it for
> >> fuel. 
> >
> > <nod>  Bit rough on re-entries, though...
> 
> That's what shuttles and landers are for. :-)

You could *possibly* land an ice hull, if you sprayed it down with ablative 
foam first, and didn't mind it melting on you on the ground.

> >> He spun the ship for gravity, and as time went on, all the rooms and
> >> corridors tended to work their way towards the outer hull. And a void
> >> appeared in the center. So every once in a while he'd melt surface ice
> >> and pump it back to the center. And he'd then re "drill" the corridors.
> >> The rooms could be moved by judicious melting and levering. 
> >> 
> >> Oh yeah, he smuggled. The customs inspectors never quite figured out
> >> the idea that he could make a compartment in the ice that wasn't
> >> attached to *anything* and then later, spend a few hours digging to it
> >> to unload. :-)
> >
> > All he had to do was drop some dirt or something in the water and it 
> > wouldn't be visible any more.
> 
> Ever seen large chunks of *natural* ice? It's a whitish translucent
> material. It ain't clear.

But you *can* see the outlines of stuff if it's less than a foot or 2 inside the ice, or it's a *BIG* object.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 08:33:39 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

> Darkstar and Silent Running get my votes for best space movies...:-)

I've never seen Darkstar, or know what its about.  But Silent Running, I
grabbed that on DVD as soon as it came out.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 00:23:46 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

>> >As for K&R, I taught myself C in four hours by reading that book cover
to
>> cover
>> Ditto. In order to complete a computer assignment at university
>
>And spent the next five years refining your skills, yes?

Not really. C wasn't any different than any other procedural language
available at the time, it was merely a matter of learning the syntax, and a
few idioms. After that, all the skills I used in Pascal, assembly, and other
procedural, languages were applicable.

C++ was much harder to master, because to use it properly you have to
understand a different programming paradigm, which at the time no-one really
understood, and many still don't. The number of C programmers now claiming
to be programming in C++ but still writing C code is larger than you might
think.

>> >Actually, there never was an "A", just a "B".
>> "B" is derived from BCPL, which is why there was no "A",
>
>A few years ago I had a book by the head(?) of the C++ team (Bjarne
>Strousup?) about the derivations through to C++ - really interesting
>reading.

Then Bjarne Stroustrup was either telling a fable or is just wrong.

>A refers to assembly,

Maybe, but that has no relevance to the derivation of the name C

>B refers to 'B' computer programming language.  Ken
>Thompson decided A sucked (not platform independant) while writing unix on
>the PDP-7, and up popped 'B'

Which was based on BCPL, a language Ken liked.

>Dennis Ritchie upskilled 'B' and they renamed it to 'C' about the same year
I was born <grin>.

And the reason they named it 'C" is because it was the next letter in the
name of BCPL. There is a reference in the C FAQ to a transcript of a talk
where either Thompson or Ritchie explains the origins of the name C.

There were considerations at the time C++ came out that it should have been
called 'P', but as there was a thing known as the 'P-code' interpreter
running around at the time, so it would have been too confusing.

Oh, and BTW, I was programming in Algol -W about the time you were born
<grin>

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 08:44:16 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

> C++ was much harder to master, because to use it properly you have to
> understand a different programming paradigm, which at the time no-one really
> understood, and many still don't. The number of C programmers now claiming
> to be programming in C++ but still writing C code is larger than you might
> think.

What do you mean by this?  All my experience is mainly in BASIC, with a
little script language (QmodemPro and Telemate Script), but I bought
Visual C++ 6.0 a bit ago planning to learn it.  Did I get in over my
head?
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 06:44:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 

- --- "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >   As an aside, it suddenly occurs to me that metal-hulled non-Jump
> ships
> > should lose to in-system rocks; the hull is such a major cost
> component
> > that even a dispersed (MCr -50%) configuration costs 10-20% more.
> And in
> > this context it's only the drives (M&P) that affect cost, so simply
> slotting
> > a pre-assembled module into a prepared cavity in the rocks rear
> surface
> > would provide the needed cost advantage from the series discount.
> 
> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
> 
> I can see them as cheep monitors in systems where you *need* heavy
> metal but don't want jump-capable ships, like on picket duty in an
> interdicted system like Coventry (Reavers' Deep 1723), an exile
> colony for the Confederacy of Duncinae.  I can even see a couple
> 'factory ships' building these cheep monitors on site in the end
> user's system, packing in the needed components like computers,
> armaments, and drives, and manufacturing other things like bulkheads
> and wiring on site.
> 
> Whatcha think?

That actually sounds very economical and reasonable. One heck of a, if 
you will excuse the pun, 'niche' market. <g>

Terry
_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 10:19:28 EDT
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 

I've always figured that a natural progression would take place wherever you 
have belters mining the asteroids.

1)  A mine is established on an asteroid.
2)  The miners over time tunnel into the asteroid, and set up living quarters 
in the tunnels after use. 
3)  The population expands, and as the mine plays out, the place takes on the 
aspects of a town adrift in the belt.
4)  At some point, the townfolk obtain a big honkin surplus drive unit, 
changing them from a town into a ship capable of moving throughout the system 
in search of trade and profit.
5)  Given time, and it might be a few centuries, if the town/ship has been 
successful, a jump drive goes in, and they become interstellar traders.

 I've always figured that given several centuries of incremental 
improvements, asteroid ships would be pretty common.

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 08:38:22 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinematic restraint

>R2D2. But that of course was not the sole inspiration; the 
>aforementioned adventure movies and Campbell's nonfiction 
>myth-analysis book _The Hero With A Thousand Faces_ were 
>critical to the development of Star Wars.
>
>Now, of course, the most important inspirations to draw 
>upon for Star Wars movies are marketing's plans for adorable
>toys. *cough*

Isn't it sad when the primary focus of an artistic endeavour is
the potential for marketing tie-ins? I remember a segment from the
Garfield cartoon series in which Garfield wakes up in the wrong
cartoon, a futuristic SF show with giant robots. At one point, when
Garfield is causing much collateral damage with a giant robot, one
of the characters says something about "the toy company will not be
pleased".

ObTrav: Toys in the Imperium. Are there toys like Imperial Navy
or Marines action figures? Perhaps based on a popular fictional
character in one of the services, a 54th-century G.I. Joe? I can
see it now -- G.I. Giiragu action figures, with allies such as an
Ithklur commando, and enemies such as a Zhodani operative complete
with turban and glowing eyes to designate his evil psi powers at 
work...

(I can also imagine plush, furry, stuffed toy Hivers...)


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 08:46:37 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: questions on Rogue CharGen

I have a draft copy of the T4.1 Rogue career. In it there is a table
called 'Plus and Minus'. Can anyone tell me what this table is for?

Also, Rogues can "masquerade" in different professions. As referee, I
decided that a Rogue, after declaring a desire to masquerade, still had
to make the enlistment roll that career in order to successfully
masquerade in it. Was that right? 
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 07:51:29 -0700
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

> > Darkstar and Silent Running get my votes for best space movies...:-)
>
> I've never seen Darkstar, or know what its about.  But Silent Running, I
> grabbed that on DVD as soon as it came out.
> --

I come at it the other way. Although I know of Silent Running, I've never
seen it. Darkstar, however, I saw on the TV late one night and have used
what I remember of it in most of my Traveller games. Orbital surfing dude.

Wayne Ewart (CT/HG Templer wanna-be)

wewart@home.com
ICQ 22113294

Give a man fire, he'll be warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for life!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 07:59:27 -0700
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplan Index updated

> The big Deckplan Index at my site has been updated to include all of the
> Challenges and the contents of T4: Starships. Any further info anyone may
> have regarding _published_ Traveller deckplans is welcome...
>
>  Now a question: Would those who use that list prefer it stay a reference
for
> Traveller deckplans specifically, or would the addition of plans from
other
> games that are useable in Traveller be a welcome addition. The first
things
> that come to mind are several Star Wars RPG articles and supplements...
>
> GC
>
> http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html
Please do, any new ships (as long as I only bend cannon a little) will
always be welcome.

Wayne Ewart (CT/HG Templer wanna-be)

wewart@home.com
ICQ 22113294

Give a man fire, he'll be warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for life!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 11:35:38 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Webring

jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin) writes:

On Fri, 21 May 1999 20:11:19 -0400, Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
wrote:
>> I've seen that before, not just limited to the Traveller webring.  Two
>> thoughts on how to handle.  First, email the webmaster of the offending site
>> and point out the oversight.  Second, email the person in charge of the
>> webring pointing out the sites that do not have the link.
>I've never been invited to join it, and although I support Classic
>Traveller, I don't know how I can put up anything better than you guys
>already have.

As far as I know, you don't have to be _invited_ to join the
webring, and you don't have to put up a superfantastic site - it
just has to be a site supporting the topic of the ring - that is,
any version of Traveller.

That's correct. I've two sites up on the webring (BITS and my own, which is
somewhat content lacking at the moment).

Just follow the link to the webring homepage and follow the log on procedure.

Some of the older webring pages still point at the old ring homepage, but
the links from http://www.bits.org.uk/ (on the webring symbol and in the
jumpsites page) are current.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #662
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 23 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 663



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The Planets
Re: questions on Rogue CharGen
Artists needed
Re: questions on Rogue CharGen
Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships
Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships
Re: FLGS in Harvard area
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: questions on Rogue CharGen
Re: questions on Rogue CharGen
Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Spear Carriers and Joe Genero
Re: _Brilliant Lances_
Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero 
Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 
BayCon and Denny's
Gaming stores in Canada's Lake Ontario area.
Re: no one plays CT anymore
Re: no one plays CT anymore
Re: _Brilliant Lances_

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 17:02:37 +0100 (BST)
From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: The Planets

Dom sent:

>Those of you in the UK who are following the BBC TV series 'The Planets'
>(the ten part 1hour episode tour of the solar system on at the moment)
>may be interested in this.

>The Internet Bookshop http://www.bookshop.co.uk/ has it at a 40% discount
>on the tie in book from the 19.99 RRP (it works out at 14.98 with P&P).

I'd advise folks to have a look at the book in their local bookshop first.
I had a gander at it and it didn't impress me at all. The series is ok,
but there are quite a few omissions and misleading statements thrown in -
and 70's NASA graphics beat what it's got any day.

Eamon.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 12:32:57 -0400
From: "Alan M. Nuss" <amnuss@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: questions on Rogue CharGen

This is a reply I recieved from marc Miller

Subject:          Re: more questions
    Date:          Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:31:28 EST
   From:          FarFuture@aol.com
      To:           amnuss@earthlink.net


In a message dated 11/21/98 6:36:46 AM Central Standard Time,
amnuss@earthlink.net writes:

<< Rouge character generation:  When do you use the 'Plus and Minus'
 table?  Does 'CS'
 mean Cold Sleep?  What exactly does 'Masquerade Position' refer to? >>

Roll on that table once during each term while in Masquerade. CS= Cold
Sleep
and increases physical age. Masq position means commission or promotion
if
available.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 11:50:12 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Artists needed

I have reached a desparate situation with the art for GURPS Traveller Alien
Races 2, and need assistance.

1 I need someone who can execute publishable deckplans within a week. six
pages would be ideal, but if you can only complete one by 1 June, that
would be helpful.

2: I need one or more people who can do me some sample Aslan and K'kere
ideographs. Someone with a caligraphic pen and a few spare hours...

3. If you can draw a repectable Aslan or K'kree, and think you can do one
or more illos by 1 June, get in touch with me.

Please contact me asap at

                         lkw@io.com

and cc:               gdwgames@aol.com





Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 10:07:12
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: questions on Rogue CharGen

At 08:46 AM 5/23/99 -0600, you wrote:

>Also, Rogues can "masquerade" in different professions. As referee, I
>decided that a Rogue, after declaring a desire to masquerade, still had
>to make the enlistment roll that career in order to successfully
>masquerade in it. Was that right? 

I would say no, since he's impersonating the career, he shouldn't be held
to their standards.

"Hmm.. I've never heard of "Dewey, Cheatum And Howe Lines", but your papers
are in order, welcome aboard, Pilot!"

"Uh, thanks.. d'ya think I could get some simulator time?  Ya see, I'm
not.. umm.. familiar with this make.."
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 10:36:50 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships

>From: KenRoney@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 
...
>4)  At some point, the townfolk obtain a big honkin surplus drive unit, 
>changing them from a town into a ship capable of moving throughout the system 
>in search of trade and profit.
>5)  Given time, and it might be a few centuries, if the town/ship has been 
>successful, a jump drive goes in, and they become interstellar traders.

  The difficulty I have is that at this point (#5) the townsfolk are flat out
better off buying a starship - their "ship" (well, "rock") will cost a fortune
to equip with proper power plant and jump drives, with no series discount and
a pathetic cost:payload ratio once you remove the volume dedicated to their
permanent living quarters and economy.

  OTOH, it must have been done occasionally if only for social/cultural
reasons; I wonder if you can rent a battle-rider tender if yoy ask nicely?

  Hmm, rock - Fraggle Rock?...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 10:38:34 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 
...
>I can see them as cheep monitors in systems where you *need* heavy metal /...

  I have to entertain some doubts as to whether anyone would actually do
something as strange as build asteroid-hulled warships...

ANTEATER-Class Battle Rider				
        BR-M9213F3 - J91106 - 84Q08-0   BCr 28.44148    39800 tons
	  batts	      1   1   1V1 V	                Crew = 300.
	  bearing     1   1   1S1 S	
        LHyd = 1194.  EP = 1194.  Agility = 0.  Marines = 457.
        Unstreamlined. Backup computer (F) and screens. V = 29.

  Steven Hudson

 ** Serendip Construction Systems:
      - When You Absolutely, Positively Have To Be The Last One Standing!(tm) **

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 14:43:41 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: FLGS in Harvard area

Also down Mass Ave. just across the bridge going into Boston is the "The
Complete Strategist".  At least it used to be there.

Thom Harris

- -----Original Message-----
From: Scott E Kullberg <sekullbe@mediaone.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, May 22, 1999 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: FLGS in Harvard area


>Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com> writes:
>
>> Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no> write:
>> >I'm visiting Harvard for a few days. Do any of you know of any good
>> >FLGS in the Harvard area?
>>
>> I'll take a stab at you meaning Harvard University in Cambridge, MA.
>>
>> Right in Harvard Square, in the Garage Mall, Pandemonium Books & Games.
>> http://www.tiac.net/users/pandemo/
>>
>
>Down Massachusetts Ave. a couple of blocks (towards MIT & Boston)
>there's The Games People Play. Not as good for RPG stuff but lots more
>boardgames.
>
>--
>Scott E Kullberg <*>  sekullbe@{mediaone.net|mit.edu} --><--
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 15:52:08 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

Carlos Alos-Ferrer writes:
<snipped>
"I recall an old Arthur C. Clarke's short story (don't recall 
which, maybe in the "Solar Wind" antology) where a *lot* of 
people had to leave a spaceship to save their lifes and board 
another, in hard vacuum. For whatever the reason ,there was no 
way to connect both starships, and only a few vacc suits around.

As the story went, somebody convinced the people about the 
toughness of their skin, and convinced them to expel all possible 
air of their lungs, close their eyes, and "jump" through vacuum 
from one ship to the other, for a short vacuum exposition..."
<snipped>

	Was that the same story that revolved around a war between
	Terra/Luna and the colonies on the other planets? As I 
	recall, the protagonist was assigned to discover a
	suspected spy operating at an astronomic research
	facility on Luna. IIRC there is a great battle scene in
	which highly mobile out-planet ships attack a base on Luna
	that is protected by a mirror-like force field. The spy was
	communicating with the out-planets in a clever manner,
	revealed at the end of the story.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 16:05:10 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

In a message dated 5/23/99 12:43:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:

<< 
 Darkstar and Silent Running get my votes for best space movies...:-)
 
  >>
SILENT RUNNING?,  gaccck! Uggg that was awful!

			Dave Nelson   

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 15:36:17 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

Ah, but Silent running gave us "droids" did it not?

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -----Original Message-----
From: AveNelso@aol.com <AveNelso@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, May 23, 1999 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)


>In a message dated 5/23/99 12:43:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:
>
><<
> Darkstar and Silent Running get my votes for best space movies...:-)
>
>  >>
>SILENT RUNNING?,  gaccck! Uggg that was awful!
>
> Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 15:01:16 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: questions on Rogue CharGen

"Alan M. Nuss" wrote:
> 
> This is a reply I recieved from marc Miller
> 
> 
> Roll on that table once during each term while in Masquerade. CS= Cold
> Sleep
> and increases physical age. Masq position means commission or promotion
> if
> available.
> 
> Marc

Many thanks. That clears it up. Too late for the character my player
rolled up, though.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 15:03:48 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: questions on Rogue CharGen

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> At 08:46 AM 5/23/99 -0600, you wrote:
> 
> >Also, Rogues can "masquerade" in different professions. As referee, I
> >decided that a Rogue, after declaring a desire to masquerade, still had
> >to make the enlistment roll that career in order to successfully
> >masquerade in it. Was that right?
> 
> I would say no, since he's impersonating the career, he shouldn't be held
> to their standards.
> 
> "Hmm.. I've never heard of "Dewey, Cheatum And Howe Lines", but your papers
> are in order, welcome aboard, Pilot!"
> 
> "Uh, thanks.. d'ya think I could get some simulator time?  Ya see, I'm
> not.. umm.. familiar with this make.."

I can see a Rogue masquerading as a pilot for a few months like this,
but for an entire four-year term? That seems a bit far-fetched to me.

What if he masquerades as a member of the Imperial Navy? Think _anyone_
could fake that for a four-year term?

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 13:58:29 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

From: AveNelso@aol.com <AveNelso@aol.com>

> Darkstar and Silent Running get my votes for best space movies...:-)
>
>  >>
>SILENT RUNNING?,  gaccck! Uggg that was awful!


    Silent Running was great.  The Forests were only one one ship, Bruce
Dern was great as an insane crewman who saves the trees & kills his fellow
crewmembers.  Hughy, Dewy, & Louie are great, proto-R2D2s.  The ships look
good & real.  That movie has everything, excepting big budget special
effects & that makes it all the more better to me.  It seems more real to
me, more gritty because you do not have aliens attacking & it is a perfect
movie for seeing what TL-9 ships look like.
    And do not get me started on Darkstar, Benson, Arizona, or the talking
bomb.  Loved that movie as well.  Almost the perfect movie for Traveller.
And, the talking bomb steals the show for me.
    As to Star Wars, well I have to admit I compare every movie I see to it
because it was the first movie I ever saw.  And, while it did have great
special effects, I am not a big FX fan.  I do like FX, but Star Wars, even
with its FX, Silent Running, & Dark Star are about the characters & story.
You can retell Star Wars in almost any time period you want to name, as well
as Silent Running, but I cannot see you doing it with Darkstar.  Sorry, but
it is a SF film all the way.

> Dave Nelson


    I bid you peace.

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 17:27:35 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero

A question.

	How do you folks handle "spear carriers",  i.e., nameless brigands, 
enemy soldiers,  pir---err scratch that one, hireling soldiers in mercenary 
campaigns.

	My practice has been to make them incarnations of "Joe Genero", with 
stats being 7 across the board for the physical stats, with  INT, ED and SOC 
sometimes a point or two lower for criminal types.  I used something likee 
the draft T4.1 for assigning skills--i.e., most are one term  or two terms 
with skills assigned from correct lists.

	I have been thinking, however, that for mercenary hirelings and other 
soldiers, that perhaps they should have physical stats of 8 or so, and I''ve 
seen some soldiers in published adventures with really high DEX or STR for 
everyone in the unit.

	I think it would be nice to have a standard set of NPC's to  use in 
these situations, and have made sevarl versions myself over the years, but 
keep running into problems--such as are soldiers "average guys STR 7"  or is 
that a rating more in line for shopkeepers and clerks?

	So my question is, just how do you handle setting up your "Spear 
Carriers" in your actual games, what works and what doesn't?

		Dave Nelson 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 15:51:23 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: _Brilliant Lances_

 
> 	It really *doesn't* matter that each hit location is much bigger on
> the destroyer than it is on the scout. What matters is the chances of
> hitting a specific item. And since that depends on the *proportion*
> of the item's area to the overall area of that ship, this scaling is
> *correct*.  Anything else would be broken ...  And note that,
> proportionally, a single antenna winds up with a much smaller hit
> probability on a destroyer than on the scout.

True, but what about on a Battleship where a single surface feature
might well be smaller than the smallest hit area. Then you chances
of hitting it are over estimated. Another factor is that a hit area
on a large ship could easily  be as large as the presented area of a
smaller ship--can you then aim at scout sized areas on the
battleship? :-) (good for fighters)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 17:48:05 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero 

> A question.
> 
> 	How do you folks handle "spear carriers",  i.e., nameless brigands, 
> enemy soldiers,  pir---err scratch that one, hireling soldiers in mercenary 
> campaigns.
> 
> 	My practice has been to make them incarnations of "Joe Genero", with 
> stats being 7 across the board for the physical stats, with  INT, ED and SOC 
> sometimes a point or two lower for criminal types.  I used something likee 
> the draft T4.1 for assigning skills--i.e., most are one term  or two terms 
> with skills assigned from correct lists.
> 
> 	I have been thinking, however, that for mercenary hirelings and other 
> soldiers, that perhaps they should have physical stats of 8 or so, and I''ve 
> seen some soldiers in published adventures with really high DEX or STR for 
> everyone in the unit.
> 
> 	I think it would be nice to have a standard set of NPC's to  use in 
> these situations, and have made sevarl versions myself over the years, but 
> keep running into problems--such as are soldiers "average guys STR 7"  or is 
> that a rating more in line for shopkeepers and clerks?
> 
> 	So my question is, just how do you handle setting up your "Spear 
> Carriers" in your actual games, what works and what doesn't?


I've been known to pull mine straight out of '1001 Characters', or just think 
for a minute or two about what they'd carry, throw 2D6 four times for their 
physical stats & intelligence, then 1D6-2 for appropriate skills for the 
weapon they're carrying.  I write it down on a 3x5.  I 'gear' 'em up with a 
1D6; 1-3, no armour.  4, jack, 5, mesh, 6 cloth.  I don't worry about their 
EDU or SOC; they ain't likely to be around after the PCs get done with them.  
This gives me a quick assortment of spearchuckers with variable weapons 
skills.  If a particular chucker wants to do something out of the normal, like 
call for backup, I roll 2D6 against his INT.  Under, he thinks of it.  Over 
it, he doesn't.  "GM specials', i.e., clues like maps or pieces of hardware, i 
just give 'em.  I *WANT* the PCs to get the 'specials' for whatever reasons 
cross my warped lil mind...  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 17:59:21 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 
> ...
> >I can see them as cheep monitors in systems where you *need* heavy metal /...
> 
>   I have to entertain some doubts as to whether anyone would actually do
> something as strange as build asteroid-hulled warships...
> 
> ANTEATER-Class Battle Rider				
>         BR-M9213F3 - J91106 - 84Q08-0   BCr 28.44148    39800 tons
> 	  batts	      1   1   1V1 V	                Crew = 300.
> 	  bearing     1   1   1S1 S	
>         LHyd = 1194.  EP = 1194.  Agility = 0.  Marines = 457.
>         Unstreamlined. Backup computer (F) and screens. V = 29.

A Jump 2 battle rider?????  Whyfor????

The idea for building came about after reading about the increased security at Coventry (Reavers' Deep 1723) when they exiled a popular admiral after he attempted a coup.  They'd want more ships around it to keep any supporters or rescuer wannabes away, but *not* want to commit massive fleet resources on a long-term basis (about a hundred years; long enough to *ensure* the admiral was dead, dead, DEAD).  They don't have to be jump-capable.  They really *DON'T* want them to be jump-capable just in case the exiles *do* manage a breakout and escape offworld.  And they want them *cheap* so they don't break the bank.  I can see them using surplus components a TL or two lower than the Confederation's mainstream for them as well; they don't have to be cutting edge, they just have to *work*.  They wouldn't need 6G monitors for rocks in orbit.  1G rocks are just fine.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 18:57:40 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: BayCon and Denny's

Jesse is again temporarily off the net.  We're both still planning on making 
BayCon...he may not make the Denny's gathering though.  Is there a set date 
and time?  I'll have about 3-4 people with me I believe.  Some one let me 
know.  Email me at TASCelt@aol.com

Thanks,

Todd

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 20:05:12 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Gaming stores in Canada's Lake Ontario area.

Hey.  Next week I plan on circumnavigating Lake Ontario, with Canadian
stops to include Ottawa, Toronto, and Niagara Falls.  Are there any
particularly interesting FLGS in those cities or in the areas between them?
 Especially stores that carry a lot of old and out of print material
(Traveller or other RPGs)?

Thanks,


          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 17:23:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: no one plays CT anymore

In mail you write:

>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> >> I still like the idea in the old SF novel "Gallagher's Glacier". It
>> >> involves an "asteroid" hulled ship. Made of *ice*. 
>> >
>> >> It's a great idea. The ice makes tunneling easy, and you can use it for
>> >> fuel. 
>> >
>> > <nod>  Bit rough on re-entries, though...
>> 
>> That's what shuttles and landers are for. :-)
>
> You could *possibly* land an ice hull, if you sprayed it down with ablative 
> foam first, and didn't mind it melting on you on the ground.

Land in the polar areas. Of course, you'd still have trouble with it
melting from *pressure* due to it's own weight.

>> >> He spun the ship for gravity, and as time went on, all the rooms and
>> >> corridors tended to work their way towards the outer hull. And a void
>> >> appeared in the center. So every once in a while he'd melt surface ice
>> >> and pump it back to the center. And he'd then re "drill" the corridors.
>> >> The rooms could be moved by judicious melting and levering. 
>> >> 
>> >> Oh yeah, he smuggled. The customs inspectors never quite figured out
>> >> the idea that he could make a compartment in the ice that wasn't
>> >> attached to *anything* and then later, spend a few hours digging to it
>> >> to unload. :-)
>> >
>> > All he had to do was drop some dirt or something in the water and it 
>> > wouldn't be visible any more.
>> 
>> Ever seen large chunks of *natural* ice? It's a whitish translucent
>> material. It ain't clear.
>
> But you *can* see the outlines of stuff if it's less than a foot or 2 inside 
> the ice, or it's a *BIG* object.

It was pretty big, with the rooms well spread out.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 17:07:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: no one plays CT anymore

In mail you write:

>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > I dunno.  I see Walt's point on this, & I'm tempted to agree with
>> > him.  Rocks are just too randomly constructed.  No two are alike.
>> > The class discount I'd always regarded as having to do with that
>> > shipyard's familiarity with the nuances of the class design.  I.E.,
>> > if they discover that you *have* to lay down the control fibers in
>> > the bulkhead *before* you mount the fusion bottle and button up the
>> > hull instead of trying to snake them through after the bottle's been
>> > mounted & discovering that it just won't go, then you know that in
>> > the next ship of that class, you lay the fibers down first.  They
>> > won't get any where *near* the precision that a metal hull will give
>> > them as far as parts placement goes.  I'm not talking precision on
>> > the order of 0.0001 mm, I'm talking precision on the order of mebbe
>> > .5 mm.  I just don't see an asteroid being able to get down to this
>> > level of tolerance.
>> 
>> Sorry, but we can get that sort of tolerance in cutting rock *now*.
>> Check out the amount of error in joining up various recent tunneling
>> projects like the Chunnel. Over a span of *miles* the error was only a
>> few inches.
>
> But those tunnels aren't flying around in space.  What I'm saying is,
> an asteroid probably isn't gonna be homogenous throughout itself.
> There's going to be flaws and defects.  They'll have to be taken into
> account.  And not every rock will have the same defects in the same
> places.  Some of these defects will affect the strength of the rock
> around them.  IMNSFBHO, that's why the 20% wasted space rule is
> there.  If you can't place a vital component like a manuver drive or
> a fusion bottle in the exact location as every other boat in the
> class because of a structural defect in the rock, you're going to
> have to work a bit longer to place it.  Otherwise, it could crack the
> rock from the added stress.
  
Actually, there's every reason believe that a rocky or nickel iron
asteroid *will* be quite homogenous. That's because of the way they are
formed. Essentially, when they first accumulate out of "dust" in the
early stages of system formation, there's enough radioactivity that the
heat first melts the "ice" and lets the stony and metallic components
settle to the center. Then they metal and the stony and metal
components sort out by density. The asteroid then cools over millenia,
giving you a quite well annealed hunk of rock & metal with an icy
shell. 

The ice won't stick around in the inner system. And collisions will
break off large chunks. These days, we'll have broken off chunks,
bodies that have had chunks broken off, bodies that hit hard enough to
fuse but not hard enough to shatter, and finally, "gravel banks" -
bodies that consist of a lot of smaller pieces held together by their
mutual gravitational attraction.

Only the first two types are going to be suitable for building ships
from. And flaws can easily be detected by "echo sounding" the rock. But
given the nature of the rock, and the types of collisions, I'd bet that
the flaws will tend to be major or insignificant, with nothing
inbetween. 

The 20% waste space is simply the space required to give a *big* safety
margin for structural integrity. 

>> Lasers are very useful. They let you measure distances with extreme
>> accuracy, and maintain straight bores with equal accuracy.
>
> True.  But you're not drilling a tunnel for an aqueduct or a car tunnel, 
> you're boring out a random chunk of raw rock for a space/star ship.

Ah! But it *won't* be random! No more than a sculptor starts with a
random chunk of rock. It'll be selected for the size and shape. Then
they'll attach some probes and sonar map the interior. After that,
they'll start killing the spin (a job that will take a while and some
skilled workers). And then they move it to where the construction will
take place. 

They map the interior *before* spinning down and before moving because
a major flaw could result in the rock coming apart during either
operation. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 21:16:28 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: _Brilliant Lances_

At 03:51 PM 5/23/99 -0600, you wrote:
> 
>> 	It really *doesn't* matter that each hit location is much bigger
on
>> the destroyer than it is on the scout. What matters is the chances
of
>> hitting a specific item. And since that depends on the
*proportion*
>> of the item's area to the overall area of that ship, this scaling
is
>> *correct*.  Anything else would be broken ...  And note that,
>> proportionally, a single antenna winds up with a much smaller hit
>> probability on a destroyer than on the scout.
>
>True, but what about on a Battleship where a single surface feature
>might well be smaller than the smallest hit area. Then you chances

	IIRC that's why the table generally doesn't go down to "single"
items--TNE groups things together for the damage tables, and once you
hit a group, then you pick which item you hit. For example, the chart
won't list "Port Laser Turret #3."  Instead, it has entries for
"Weapon."  Then you decide _which_ weapon is hit.


	Still, I'm sure there are flaws in this scheme ... but it comes damn
close. Every system below full simulation will have pathological
cases. If your megatanker only has a single weapon, I suppose a
purely mechanical generation of the damage tables would leave it
invulnerable.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #663
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 24 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 664



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint) 
Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 
Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero
Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 
Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships
Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 
Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero
Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Mileau 0.
Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero
Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
Re: no one plays CT anymore
Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
Re:Missiles and stuff
Planets...
Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero...
Re: Mileau 0.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 21:30:15 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

In a message dated 5/23/99 1:10:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, AveNelso@aol.com 
writes:

<< 
 SILENT RUNNING?,  gaccck! Uggg that was awful! >>

different tastes....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 21:43:10 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint) 

> In a message dated 5/23/99 1:10:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, AveNelso@aol.com 
> writes:
> 
> << 
>  SILENT RUNNING?,  gaccck! Uggg that was awful! >>
> 
> different tastes....

Actually, I kinda liked it.  The sci fi was a bit forced, but I still liked it.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 18:57:34 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 
...
>> ANTEATER-Class Battle Rider				
>>         BR-M9213F3 - J91106 - 84Q08-0   BCr 28.44148    39800 tons
>> 	  batts	      1   1   1V1 V	                Crew = 300.
>> 	  bearing     1   1   1S1 S	
>>         LHyd = 1194.  EP = 1194.  Agility = 0.  Marines = 457.
>>         Unstreamlined. Backup computer (F) and screens. V = 29.
>
>A Jump 2 battle rider?????  Whyfor????

  The same reason why properly designed SDV's will have them in a drop-tank
friendly universe - vastly increased strategic flexibility for trivial cost
in cash and performance. IIRC my "Rabid Poodle" from last fall used this as
well. Another good reason (IMHO) why drop-tanks should be shown the door.

  Oh, and with the accompanying tanker(s) it's still both cheaper _and_ more
powerful (i.e., cost-effective) than an internal tankage warship.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 18:54:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero

In mail you write:

>>       I think it would be nice to have a standard set of NPC's to
>> use in these situations, and have made sevarl versions myself over
>> the years, but keep running into problems--such as are soldiers
>> "average guys STR 7"  or is that a rating more in line for
>> shopkeepers and clerks?
 
>>       So my question is, just how do you handle setting up your
>> "Spear Carriers" in your actual games, what works and what doesn't?

> I've been known to pull mine straight out of '1001 Characters', or
> just think for a minute or two about what they'd carry, throw 2D6
> four times for their physical stats & intelligence, then 1D6-2 for
> appropriate skills for the weapon they're carrying.  I write it down
> on a 3x5.  I 'gear' 'em up with a 1D6; 1-3, no armour.  4, jack, 5,
> mesh, 6 cloth.  I don't worry about their EDU or SOC; they ain't
> likely to be around after the PCs get done with them.
  
> This gives me a quick assortment of spearchuckers with variable
> weapons skills.  If a particular chucker wants to do something out of
> the normal, like call for backup, I roll 2D6 against his INT.  Under,
> he thinks of it.  Over it, he doesn't.  "GM specials', i.e., clues
> like maps or pieces of hardware, i just give 'em.  I *WANT* the PCs
> to get the 'specials' for whatever reasons cross my warped lil
> mind...  <grin>

I used to get NPCs several ways. First off, I had a computer program
that could generate characters (don't ask, it was for a different
system, and is buried somewhere). I'd generate a few more random
characters every week or when I was bored.

I'd also swipe NPCs from published adventures. And finally, I'd keep
the sheets of PCs who got killed or left the game.

So I'd have cards for each character in a file box, divided by class.
And by "how good" they were. That is, low stats and skills first,
better ones later.

Any that survived encounters got their stats (and gear where
applicable) adjusted accordingly, and put back in the box. Ones that
were killed, just got put back in (but facing backwards, so I wouldn't
re use them unless I ran low).

When it seemed right, I added any "quirks" (often the result of random
reaction rolls, or "throwaway" stuff from interacting with PCs) to the
card. At some point I might have given them a "real" name and a full
fledged character sheet. 

But the basic idea is to start with lots of *semi-generic* NPCs, and
let them *acquire* "personality" in play. Most won't. But a few will. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 18:49:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

In mail you write:

>> As a general rule, plugging something into something 2 TLs older will
>> *fry* the newer device. Examples:
>> Hook a 20ma current loop device to RS-232.
>> Hook RS-232 to TTL
>> Hook 5v TTL to 3v TTL

> One of my areas in RL is making 1999 stuff plug into 1960's stuff -
> interfaces and the like - such as plugging Westinghouse 0/-16v
> 26-bit-wide-busses into telephone modems for CAD systems.  I guess that
> third-device interfacing will always be possible regardless of the TL gap.

Yeah, but at times you'll wonder why you bothered. :-) 

>> BTW, the IBM 2311 disk drive used *hydraulics* to drove the head
>> positioning mechanism!
>
> Ouch!  It would suck if the positioning feedback mechanism stuck <grin>
> Re-aligning the first voice-coil 8" drives was fun - get the opto in the
> wrong place and they could almost break the housing off the back of the
> drive!  Not what you'd call minimum moving mass heads :)  Bloody hurt when
> you got a finger in the wrong place, too.

Well, as I recall, there were *definite* "limiters" built-into the
mechanism. 

The whole thing was about the size of a dishwasher. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 22:15:55 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 
> ...
> >> ANTEATER-Class Battle Rider				
> >>         BR-M9213F3 - J91106 - 84Q08-0   BCr 28.44148    39800 tons
> >> 	  batts	      1   1   1V1 V	                Crew = 300.
> >> 	  bearing     1   1   1S1 S	
> >>         LHyd = 1194.  EP = 1194.  Agility = 0.  Marines = 457.
> >>         Unstreamlined. Backup computer (F) and screens. V = 29.
> >
> >A Jump 2 battle rider?????  Whyfor????
> 
>   The same reason why properly designed SDV's will have them in a drop-tank
> friendly universe - vastly increased strategic flexibility for trivial cost
> in cash and performance. IIRC my "Rabid Poodle" from last fall used this as
> well. Another good reason (IMHO) why drop-tanks should be shown the door.

That's assuming you'd *want* jump-capable ships on picket duty in an 
interdicted system.  If you're trying to keep the indigs safely sealed up in 
there, you *DON'T* want them to have access to jump drive, so you *wouldn't* 
put them on the picket ships.  This way, if the indigs *should* capture a 
picket ship, they can't jump out of the system.

Keven

 
>   Oh, and with the accompanying tanker(s) it's still both cheaper _and_ more
> powerful (i.e., cost-effective) than an internal tankage warship.
- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 19:57:09 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 
...>
>I can see them as cheep monitors in systems where you *need* heavy metal
but don't want jump-capable ships, like on picket duty in an interdicted
system like Coventry (Reavers' Deep 1723), an exile colony for the
Confederacy of Duncinae.  I can even see a couple 'factory ships' building
these cheep monitors on site in the end user's system, packing in the needed
components like computers, armaments, and drives, and manufacturing other
things like bulkheads and wiring on site.

  You do realize of course that such vessels (which are, after all, building
a non-starship in the subject system) would make anti-piracy infrastructure
much easier to install and maintain?

  :>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 23:01:18 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 
> ...>
> >I can see them as cheep monitors in systems where you *need* heavy metal
> but don't want jump-capable ships, like on picket duty in an interdicted
> system like Coventry (Reavers' Deep 1723), an exile colony for the
> Confederacy of Duncinae.  I can even see a couple 'factory ships' building
> these cheep monitors on site in the end user's system, packing in the needed
> components like computers, armaments, and drives, and manufacturing other
> things like bulkheads and wiring on site.
> 
>   You do realize of course that such vessels (which are, after all, building
> a non-starship in the subject system) would make anti-piracy infrastructure
> much easier to install and maintain?


Yer point?

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 00:43:11 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
> 
> A question.
> 
>         How do you folks handle "spear carriers",  i.e., nameless brigands,
> enemy soldiers,  pir---err scratch that one, hireling soldiers in mercenary
> campaigns.
> 

I do it the hard way - I roll them all up as I would PC's, but with a
little less 'fleshing out'.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 00:55:45 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

"Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:
> 
> > In a message dated 5/23/99 1:10:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, AveNelso@aol.com
> > writes:
> >
> > <<
> >  SILENT RUNNING?,  gaccck! Uggg that was awful! >>
> >
> > different tastes....
> 
> Actually, I kinda liked it.  The sci fi was a bit forced, but I still liked it.

I liked it too.  It's a classic movie and Bruce Dern did d dern good job
acting like an ecology nut.  :)
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 18:01:34 +0000
From: Bradley Houston <brhoust@juno.com>
Subject: Mileau 0.

>
>>         Mileau 0 says that there is a core "Imperial Army" and a 
>"Sylean

<<<Big SNIP>>>>

I keep hearing about Mileau 0.  Can someone please let me know who the
publisher was and when it was printed?

Thanks!

Brad

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 01:25:37 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Legate Legion <legate@futureone.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, May 23, 1999 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)


>You can retell Star Wars in almost any time period you want to name, as
well
>as Silent Running, but I cannot see you doing it with Darkstar.  Sorry, but
>it is a SF film all the way.


Every plot element from Dark Star can be told in just about any time period.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 01:34:05 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero

- -----Original Message-----
From: AveNelso@aol.com <AveNelso@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, May 23, 1999 5:34 PM
Subject: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero


>A question.
>
> How do you folks handle "spear carriers",  i.e., nameless brigands,
>enemy soldiers,  pir---err scratch that one, hireling soldiers in mercenary
>campaigns.


Characters in games I run rarely employ hirelings. However, for NPCs in
general I usually generates lists. When I run Traveller games, I usually
have several pages of names: terran first names and last names, usually from
a variety of different cultures and languages. I also have a page or two of
vilani names. I categorize first names by gender usually...

I also usually have lists of stats in case an NPC is important enough to
warrant their use. When the time comes that I need stats and a name I just
pick them and random and *voila*... Instant NPC. It works well enough for
me. My players usually can't tell the difference between a scripted NPC (one
that I've specifically written into the adventure) and an off-the-cuff NPC,
so I guess I'm doing something right.

If I'm caught completely unaware, it's not hard to just pop stats out of my
head.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 23:36:11 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

>I liked it too.  It's a classic movie and Bruce Dern did d dern good job
>acting like an ecology nut.  :)


    Bruce Dern was acting like a nut?  I thought he was nuts.  *weg*

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 02:35:43 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

At 05:50 PM 5/22/99 +1200, you wrote:
>>Actually, there never was an "A", just a "B".
>"B" is derived from BCPL, which is why there was no "A",
yup.

>>As for K&R, I taught myself C in four hours by reading that book cover to
>cover
>Ditto. In order to complete a computer assignment at university
Also Ditto.  I took a 1 credit three week class in C.  Read K&R before the
first lecture.  Finished the final project before I left the first
Lecture...  Too bad it was Pass/Fail...

>>.  C++ took more doing...
>
>Not surprisingly, it's a far more complex language, being a superset of C

Yup.  The book I learned that from was "The Late Night Guide to C++" by
Chapman.  Great 1st C++ book, it assumes that you are already a competent
programmer, so it doesn't go through "This is what a variable is" that many
other intro to a language books do.  And then of course the Stroustrup
books ("The C++ programming language" and the ARM).  

ObTrav: What are the standard reference works that every programmer (and by
extension, every starship) would have handy?  What material do they cover?


          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:50:28 +1200
From: "Mike Smith" <mjsmith@staff.salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

> >> >Actually, there never was an "A", just a "B".
> >> "B" is derived from BCPL, which is why there was no "A",

> >A few years ago I had a book by the head(?) of the C++ team (Bjarne
> >Strousup?) about the derivations through to C++ - really interesting
> >reading.

> Then Bjarne Stroustrup was either telling a fable or is just wrong.

> >A refers to assembly,
> Maybe, but that has no relevance to the derivation of the name C

Only in its heritage.  Assembly ain't that portable, you might say.

> >B refers to 'B' computer programming language.  Ken
> >Thompson decided A sucked (not platform independant) while writing unix
on
> >the PDP-7, and up popped 'B'
>
> Which was based on BCPL, a language Ken liked.

Which *was* BCPL ('B' Computer programming language)

> There were considerations at the time C++ came out that it should have
been
> called 'P', but as there was a thing known as the 'P-code' interpreter
> running around at the time, so it would have been too confusing.

I thought the 'P' code as short for pseudo-code, i.e. half-compiled.  I've
got a script language I wrote based on that idea (more like good ol'
m-basic, really) where keywords and variable names are precompiled for
speed.  I'm in the process of converting it to windows to preserve a bunch
of old code...  Back then I didn't comment things enough (a trick that
younger players shouldn't forget).

> Oh, and BTW, I was programming in Algol -W about the time you were born
> <grin>

Hmmm...  Not Y2K consulting now, are you? :)

Mike.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 01:37:46 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: no one plays CT anymore

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: no one plays CT anymore 
...
>> the ship (the drives/plant being all that really counts), which probably
makes
>> a fair chunk of sense - they're merely adjusting the configurations of some
>> components to fit any variations that drilling the "hull" couldn't deal with;
>> later stages of most ship-building processes have had issues liek this.
>
>I dunno.  I see Walt's point on this, & I'm tempted to agree with him.  Rocks 
>are just too randomly constructed.  No two are alike.  The class discount I'd 
>always regarded as having to do with that shipyard's familiarity with the 
>nuances of the class design.  I.E., if they discover that you *have* to lay 
...
>any where *near* the precision that a metal hull will give them as far as 
>parts placement goes.  I'm not talking precision on the order of 0.0001 mm, 
>I'm talking precision on the order of mebbe .5 mm.  I just don't see an 
>asteroid being able to get down to this level of tolerance.

  I was assuming that having everything be within a couple feet of where they
might be on another ship of the class would work - it's the same drives going
in the same places, and I doubt that the precise placement of conduits will
matter that much (or that the supposed exact copies produced by sentients in
normal shipyards would be that nearly identical either).

  As it happens asteroid-hulled starships make for uneconomic freighters at
TL E and below, and there would likely only be a few newly built at TL F -
it's sufficiently odd to not be worth the dubious benefit, although there's
probably a case to be made for a novelty passenger liner or ten.

  FWIW, the rules are currently quite explicit that warships do get the
discount.

        Steven Hudson

The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"
        (but Space 1889 is quite cool, too)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 09:43:01 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

At 15:49 21/05/1999 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>Somewhere, I have (or used to have, it may be on the HD that died a few
>years back) a Pascal "code obfuscator". What it does is goes thru and
>changes all variable, constant, function and procedure names to
>arbitrary character strings (AAAAA AAAAB AAAAAC etc). Then it removes
>all indentation from the code. And finally, it combines short lines
>into long ones (after all the ";" is the statement seperator), while
>removing any blank lines. Oh yeah, it removes all comments too. 

Many years ago (12?) I was looking through some commercial software
written in basic that had done something similar.
The difference was that this version of basic was case sensitive
(the variable AAAAA was distinct from AAAAa, etc.) so it only
had one variable name...

The compression utility also played tricks like the max line length was
255 characters (plus 1 byte to hold the line length) but the internal
format replaced each basic keyword with a 1 byte token so that the lines
were more than 255 characters long when displayed on screen.

from a different machine:

	LET X = VAL(1)

sums it up I believe.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 05:24:37 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re:Missiles and stuff

At 10:17 AM 5/23/99 +1100, you wrote:
>My Gurps guru is designing something on these lines, but imagine if you
>have 10 reloads, 2 firing ports and 2 crewstations. You double your combat
>RoF, and lets face it, who could use all 70 reloads anyway ?

While in PC situations you usually only need a couple of shots, remember
that in a protracted military situation a warship may need to expend
hundreds of missiles and maintain the ability to fire for hours at a time.
And at least IMTU, most ship weapons the PCs have started out as military
designs (whether surplus or just a "New! Special Civilian Model!").  So the
70+ reloads makes sense to me.

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 07:11:59 EDT
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Planets...

Greetings:

And of course, for those who have telescopes...both Mars and Venus are still 
in good positions for actual viewing!

While Mars has passed it's best opposition point, and is starting to recede 
in size again, you can still get some good views if the atmosphere is steady 
(not true today in NJ, where it's clouds, rain and hail expected!).

Venus has been yielding some very good sights (it's the very bright "star" in 
the western sky, around 1/3 up, while Mars is the not quite as bright reddish 
"star" in the eastern sky--Mars is parallel to another dimmer but slightly 
reddish real star, that might help you pinpoint it). Some folks (using 
colored filters) have reported seeing streaks in the dark portion of the 
disk--there's a lot of debate, like the canal debate of whether these are 
real or not!

Coming up to bat later this summer will be Mercury (in the low morning sky) 
and Jupiter (in the low morning sky now, but gradually getting higher and 
higher each morning before dawn).

You don't need a huge telescope to see details on some of these (plus 
Saturn). A "mixed lens/mirror" design such as a Cat or a Mak as small as 90mm 
will give you good views of these, plus the stars and galaxies and the moon 
(of course). Refractors as small as 70mm will be useable, and reflectors as 
small as 4" can work on some of these targets. Of course, "aperture is power" 
and the bigger the scope, the better the view. My point is that you don't 
need the 200 inch Hale telescope to see things!

And it's kind of neat to see this stuff and show it to your players of your 
Traveller game!

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 22:05:48 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, 24 May 1999 2:46
Subject: Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero


>
>
>AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> A question.
>>
>>         How do you folks handle "spear carriers",  i.e., nameless
brigands,
>> enemy soldiers,  pir---err scratch that one, hireling soldiers in
mercenary
>> campaigns.
>>
>

I used to do a combo of ways:-

1)  Really fleshed out, to return often or key regular (ship's crew) NPC's
I'd roll just like a normal PC in every way.
2)  Just like the NPC supplements did it.
3)  Un-used NPC's from adventures, magazines, or that other's had rolled up
for me.
4)  Winged it.  If I needed some and didn't have any within reach (left at
home when at another venue, or in the study and I was to lazy/busy to walk
down the hall), I'd roll 3-sets of 2D6 and wing the rest according to the
situation... not always difficult to do ;^)

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 05:03:07 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Mileau 0.

Imperium games...can't remember when it was published...around 1996

>From: Bradley Houston <brhoust@juno.com>
>Reply-To: traveller@mpgn.com
>To: traveller@mpgn.com
>Subject: Mileau 0.
>Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 18:01:34 +0000
>
> >
> >>         Mileau 0 says that there is a core "Imperial Army" and a
> >"Sylean
>
><<<Big SNIP>>>>
>
>I keep hearing about Mileau 0.  Can someone please let me know who the
>publisher was and when it was printed?
>
>Thanks!
>
>Brad


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #664
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 24 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 665



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Asteroid Hulls (was re: no one plays CT anymore)
re: Asteroid-Hulled non-starships
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
Re: Non-volatile memory 
Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
GT: Far Trader Trade Routes, try two.
GT: Far Trader Trade Routes, try two.
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
Re: BayCon and Denny's
Re: Hard SF (was Re: A plea...)
Re: questions on Rogue CharGen
Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships
Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Hard SF (was Re: A plea...)
Missle acceleration
re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero
Re: Missle acceleration
NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
JimV's Calendar program...
Benson?
Corporate structure

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 08:50:44 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Asteroid Hulls (was re: no one plays CT anymore)

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sorry, but we can get that sort of tolerance in cutting rock *now*.
Check out the amount of error in joining up various recent tunneling
projects like the Chunnel. Over a span of *miles* the error was only a
few inches.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
IIRC, they custom-built the tunneling devices for the Chunnel and
abandoned at least one of them in place. ;-)

Leonard again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Lasers are very useful. They let you measure distances with extreme
accuracy, and maintain straight bores with equal accuracy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I was thinking in terms of each asteroid used as a hull being slightly
different - different densities for different areas, the center of gravity
is thirty meters to the left of *here* so the axis of *this* thruster has to 
be tilted five degrees *this way*, *that* piece of the rock has some
funny magnetic properties, so we have to chop it out and that will mean
too much of the fuel spaces are on *this* side, that kind of thing. If you're 
going to chop and shape the nickel-iron asteroids all to the same shape
and internal structure, you're spending more on them than towing and
fusion tunneling, IMO. That's why I think of each asteroid ship as custom-
built, because each asteroid should have it's own idiosyncrasies.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 08:59:52 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Asteroid-Hulled non-starships

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I can see them as cheep monitors in systems where you *need* heavy metal /...

  I have to entertain some doubts as to whether anyone would actually do
something as strange as build asteroid-hulled warships...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I've got a few in the Islands Cluster campaign we're running by email.
I'm trying them as Monitors, I just wanted to experiment with the 
highest armor available in the game at the TL. Armored planetoid
with a honkin' big spinal mount, and most incoming meson fire will
hit solid rock. "Star Fist", anyone? <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 09:08:15 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

Erwin Fritz posted:
>
>j a c wrote:
>> 
>> Any others anyone knows of?
>> 
>
>Well, how about Alien? Wasn't that made in 1977 or so? I remember that
vaguely,
>because Jaws and Alien were playing at the same theater. My best friend
and I
>paid for Alien, and then when that was done we snuck next door and saw
Jaws.
>
>I know Alien is more of a horror show than sci-fi, but it made a
lasting
>impression on me, and had one of the best catch-phrases:
>
>In outer space nobody can hear you scream.

And don't forget "Aliens", the sequel to "Alien".  "Aliens", IMO, was
not only
hard-core sci-fi, it was hardcore _Traveller_.  From what I can remember
of
the Colonial Marines characters, the writer just had to have played
Traveller
at some point in his life.

One of the best one-liners from that show that's a permanent part
of my campaigns occurred when the Marines were ordered to continue a
hostile-area patrol without ammo. One of them replied:

     What are we supposed to use?  Harsh language?

Hmmm..I think I'll warm up the ol' VCR tonight.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 07:11:43 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Non-volatile memory 

Last night I finally got to the May issue of Scientific American, and lo and
behold, there was a short article about the race to build NV Ram. There are a
number of promising approaches, and a lot of companies are really pushing
forward on this because there's expected to be a huge demand for this stuff as
digital cameras, smart cards, and PDAs become more commonplace. They have 8ns
stuff in the lab right now on GaAS substrates, and one researcher is claiming
they could have eight-bit commercial samples (on silicon) available this year.

One design they talked about has the  potential to be a cheap (or cheaper)
than conventional ram to make, can be made on a wide variety of substrates,
not just silicon, and can work 5 to ten times faster than conventional RAM.
(They didn't say whether that was all at once) That's sub-nanosecond timing.
Just what we'll need for those gigahertz processors coming through the pipe.

(pp17-18, May 1999 Scientific American V280 No. 5)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 10:33:25 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

> The compression utility also played tricks like the max line length was
> 255 characters (plus 1 byte to hold the line length) but the internal
> format replaced each basic keyword with a 1 byte token so that the lines
> were more than 255 characters long when displayed on screen.

Commodore BASIC did that too.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 07:15:30 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

> One of the best one-liners from that show that's a permanent part
> of my campaigns occurred when the Marines were ordered to continue a
> hostile-area patrol without ammo. One of them replied:
>
>      What are we supposed to use?  Harsh language?

One of my favorite lines from Aliens went something like this:

"I don't know if your up on current evens man, but we just got our asses
kicked!"

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 09:00:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: GT: Far Trader Trade Routes, try two.

I never recieved any input on this question so I will 
make a second try at asking for assistance.

In the GT: Far Trader bood, it mentions that you should 
follow the route of heaviest trade when presented with two 
choices. What about when that will cause the trade to 
drop down on the trade chart? At low levels, that probably 
would make little to no differnence but as you rise, that 
can make a significant monitary amount per year. I am guessing 
that it would matter on a BTN of 5 and above. At a 5, it 
seems that some enterprising soul would be willing to comit 
his free trader to the 100KCr - 500KCr traffic. Below that it 
seems too little to matter. Above this, it cerainly seems 
like they would not go a longer route if it lost half a 
million credits, or more, in trade, per year. Opinions?  

Also, Far Trader mentions that if there is no trade route, 
but enough trade for a minor route to give it one. My question 
there is, can I use the same sort of combining of multiple 
trade routes of the same size into a larger one as is done 
with the main routes? The book has three minor routes becoming 
one feeder route. The way I have that figured, since the rule 
is not specific, is that if there are two BTN's of 8 and one 8.5, 
they become one 9.0. If it were two 8.5 and one 8.0, they would 
become one 9.5. Is that a valid interpritation? I would use 
the smaller trade routes in the same way, combining similar small 
routes into one of the next rough integer up. Three 4.0 would become 
one 5.0. two 4.5 and one 4.0 would become a 5.5. Is that a valid 
rules interpretation? 

I need to know these things so as to create a valid picture of 
all the trade in the sector. There is a lot of trade below the 
minor level and combined it would make an impact on the overall 
map.

Thanks for any input.

Terry Mixon 
_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 09:00:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: GT: Far Trader Trade Routes, try two.

I never recieved any input on this question so I will 
make a second try at asking for assistance.

In the GT: Far Trader bood, it mentions that you should 
follow the route of heaviest trade when presented with two 
choices. What about when that will cause the trade to 
drop down on the trade chart? At low levels, that probably 
would make little to no differnence but as you rise, that 
can make a significant monitary amount per year. I am guessing 
that it would matter on a BTN of 5 and above. At a 5, it 
seems that some enterprising soul would be willing to comit 
his free trader to the 100KCr - 500KCr traffic. Below that it 
seems too little to matter. Above this, it cerainly seems 
like they would not go a longer route if it lost half a 
million credits, or more, in trade, per year. Opinions?  

Also, Far Trader mentions that if there is no trade route, 
but enough trade for a minor route to give it one. My question 
there is, can I use the same sort of combining of multiple 
trade routes of the same size into a larger one as is done 
with the main routes? The book has three minor routes becoming 
one feeder route. The way I have that figured, since the rule 
is not specific, is that if there are two BTN's of 8 and one 8.5, 
they become one 9.0. If it were two 8.5 and one 8.0, they would 
become one 9.5. Is that a valid interpritation? I would use 
the smaller trade routes in the same way, combining similar small 
routes into one of the next rough integer up. Three 4.0 would become 
one 5.0. two 4.5 and one 4.0 would become a 5.5. Is that a valid 
rules interpretation? 

I need to know these things so as to create a valid picture of 
all the trade in the sector. There is a lot of trade below the 
minor level and combined it would make an impact on the overall 
map.

Thanks for any input.

Terry Mixon 
_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 09:08:53
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

At 07:15 AM 5/24/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> One of the best one-liners from that show that's a permanent part
>> of my campaigns occurred when the Marines were ordered to continue a
>> hostile-area patrol without ammo. One of them replied:
>>
>>      What are we supposed to use?  Harsh language?
>
>One of my favorite lines from Aliens went something like this:
>
>"I don't know if your up on current evens man, but we just got our asses
>kicked!"

"Hudson, this little girl survived a lot longer than eight weeks!"

"Great, put her in charge"

and of course:

"I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be
sure."
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 09:13:48
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: BayCon and Denny's

At 06:57 PM 5/23/99 EDT, you wrote:
>Jesse is again temporarily off the net.  We're both still planning on making 
>BayCon...he may not make the Denny's gathering though.  Is there a set date 
>and time?  I'll have about 3-4 people with me I believe.  Some one let me 
>know.  Email me at TASCelt@aol.com

The First Annual TML Vilani BBQ at Denny's will be Friday, May 28th, at
around 1800.  This time is very flexible.  Anybody who is attending should
contact me by Wednesday to let me know how many folks you'll be coming with.


- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 12:00:53 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: Hard SF (was Re: A plea...)

At 10:04 PM 5/22/99 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> there are only 5 colonies), and Jump drives will start working 
>> somewhat like rec.arts.sf.science, or the physics faq says they
>> should.
>
>How is that? The only problem with Jump drive that I'm aware of is the
>way Traveller *assumes* simultaneity across distance.
>

Hmm... I wrote before thinking. The jump drives do work similarly to
what The Quick and Dirty rec.arts.sf.science FAQ 
http://www.sirius.com/~treitel/rass/qdfaq.html 
which pretty much points to The Relativity and FTL Travel FAQ on
this point
http://www.physics.purdue.edu/~hinson/ftl/FTL_StartingPoint.html

say they should, but I get a hokey feeling about the 100 diameter
limit (what does the diameter of a planet have to do with it's effect
on space-time?) and the fact that it takes one week to jump any
distance, no matter what the power of the j-drive. hmm...

But in Ringworld, someone who has just returned from a century long
ramjet missions says to someone (Frederick Wu?) "Our theories say
the speed of light cannot be exceeded.", and he replies, "We have
different theories." I thought that was amusing.
- -- 
Should've been dead on a Sunday morning
banging my head / no time for mourning
ain't got no time  -- Creed
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 09:33:22
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: questions on Rogue CharGen

At 03:03 PM 5/23/99 -0600, you wrote:

>I can see a Rogue masquerading as a pilot for a few months like this,
>but for an entire four-year term? That seems a bit far-fetched to me.
>
>What if he masquerades as a member of the Imperial Navy? Think _anyone_
>could fake that for a four-year term?

Ever hear of Stanley Clifford Weyman?  In the early 20th Century, he
successfully impersonated state department officials, Naval officers from
several different countries, An Army Air Corps officer, a doctor, a member
of the Royal Court of Norway.. and those are the ones we know about!

His finest moment came in 1926, when he was the "doctor" for Rudolph
Valentino's girlfriend, Pola Negri.  In this guise, he was interviewed by
dozens of newspapers, and even signed Valentino's death certificate!

The only thing that tripped him up was his greed and love of publicity..
sooner or later he either stole too much, or attracted too much attention.
A more circumspect faker could pass for years.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 09:50:13 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships 
.
>>   You do realize of course that such vessels (which are, after all, building
>> a non-starship in the subject system) would make anti-piracy infrastructure
>> much easier to install and maintain?
>
>Yer point?

 I just thought that a renewed piracy debate would go well with the Virus war :>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 12:02:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships

>>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>>Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships
>...
>>I can see them as cheep monitors in systems where you *need* heavy metal /...
>
>  I have to entertain some doubts as to whether anyone would actually do
>something as strange as build asteroid-hulled warships...

IIRC, in the first edition of High Guard there was a limit on how much
armour you could add to a ship. Asteroid armour didn't count against this,
so when you combined the two armours asteroid hulls had the maximum armour
(at a given tech level).

Mind you, I could be wrong...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 09:59:44 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 07:15 AM 5/24/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >> One of the best one-liners from that show that's a permanent part
> >> of my campaigns occurred when the Marines were ordered to continue a
> >> hostile-area patrol without ammo. One of them replied:
> >>
> >>      What are we supposed to use?  Harsh language?
> >
> >One of my favorite lines from Aliens went something like this:
> >
> >"I don't know if your up on current evens man, but we just got our asses
> >kicked!"
> 
> "Hudson, this little girl survived a lot longer than eight weeks!"
> 
> "Great, put her in charge"
> 
> and of course:
> 
> "I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be
> sure."

"Game over! We're cheetos man!"

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 09:36:17
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Dark Star (was:Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

At 08:33 AM 5/23/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> Darkstar and Silent Running get my votes for best space movies...:-)
>
>I've never seen Darkstar, or know what its about.

Dark Star is a wildly funny and dark low-budget film about the crew of the
Dark star, a ship sent out to to destroy planets that are in rogue orbits
and might threaten otherwise habital planets.

They've been out there for *years*, and are all a little nuts.  But they
only have one more bomb to drop.. if they can convince it to leave the bomb
bay!
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 10:07:19 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Hard SF (was Re: A plea...)

Rob Brady wrote:
> 
> I get a hokey feeling about the 100 diameter
> limit (what does the diameter of a planet have to do with it's effect
> on space-time?) and the fact that it takes one week to jump any
> distance, no matter what the power of the j-drive. hmm...

Well, actually, there's been considerable discussion about this on the
list, and it turns out that tidal force (the rate of change if the
gravity field) is probably a better indicator of where you can jump
safely. For the average planet that works out to just about 100
diameters. Go to the archives and search on 'tidal flux' it'll eb in
there somewhere, but I don't have it handy So the "100 diameter rule" is
a rough rule of thumb.

one week per any distance is handwaved away by supposing that we're
jumping to different energy levels in jump space...like electron shells
in atoms, there are definte whole 'jump numbers', but the transition to 
and from each jump number to the ground state in our universe is the
same, regardless of what level you jumped at.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 13:41:14 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Missle acceleration

In book 2 it was never mentioned, but what would the acceleration
of a missle be? The seem to assume that the missle hits on the
turn it is fired, but I always played a 1G acceleration and a
homing device on the target ship. This would act something like
a modern dogfight, where a ship with a good manuever rating
would be able to dodge a missle.

Since then, I've watched a couple of specials on the history
channel, and seen a number of missles on the news, so I was 
thinking - if a gunner (perhaps pilot?) was guiding the missle
dodging could be more difficult.

Of course I am talking about the vector based starship combat
system from LBB #2.

And if I really wanted to get in trouble I could bring up
jump torpedoes with warheads instead of mail. They could be
programmed with system and world maps. You would then have
a J-space cruise missle. But I won't mention it, because I
don't believe in jump torpedoes.


- -- 
Should've been dead on a Sunday morning
banging my head / no time for mourning
ain't got no time  -- Creed
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:51:34 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero

AveNelso@aol.com writes:
>	How do you folks handle "spear carriers",  i.e., nameless brigands,
>enemy soldiers,  pir---err scratch that one, hireling soldiers in mercenary
>campaigns.

I use the npc stats given in ACQ's draft - Doug, do you want to put a
summary of the table here?

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 11:02:24 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Missle acceleration

> In book 2 it was never mentioned, but what would the acceleration
> of a missle be? The seem to assume that the missle hits on the
> turn it is fired, but I always played a 1G acceleration and a
> homing device on the target ship. This would act something like
> a modern dogfight, where a ship with a good manuever rating
> would be able to dodge a missle.

I don't have my LBBs with me, but I seem to recall that missiles have a 6G
accel, and for game purposes, hit the turn after they are fired.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 13:45:17 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

>One of my favorite lines from Aliens went something like this:
>
>"I don't know if your up on current evens man, but we just got our asses
>kicked!"


As a referee, my favorite line from a sci fi movie: "Apology accepted,
Captain Needa."

The evil emperor Lucan often used a line similar to this in a Star Warsish
Megatraveller game I ran some while ago now (Star Wars: The Shattered
Imperium). After seeing TPM, I am certain this is to be the next type of
game I'll run. After the upcoming Morrow Project: Reign of Steel campaign I
have planned, that is. A MARS team on an Earth ruled by robots -- woo hoo!

OT: Is there a living Morrow Project mailing list somewhere?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 15:12:22 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

At 01:45 PM 5/24/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>One of my favorite lines from Aliens went something like this:
>>
>>"I don't know if your up on current evens man, but we just got our asses
>>kicked!"
>
>
>As a referee, my favorite line from a sci fi movie: "Apology accepted,
>Captain Needa."
>
>The evil emperor Lucan often used a line similar to this in a Star Warsish
>Megatraveller game I ran some while ago now (Star Wars: The Shattered
>Imperium). After seeing TPM, I am certain this is to be the next type of
>game I'll run. After the upcoming Morrow Project: Reign of Steel campaign I
>have planned, that is. A MARS team on an Earth ruled by robots -- woo hoo!
>
>OT: Is there a living Morrow Project mailing list somewhere?

Certainly!

There are three MP lists, and the directions for joining may be found at:

http://www.transdata.ca/~ggore/morrow.htm

Kurt (whos is doing four seperate teams in a Morrow Project/MegaTraveller
crossover with some Hiver manipulation for spice!)

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 14:21:30 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: JimV's Calendar program...

Fellow Sophonts,

I've just downloaded and checked out Jim V's Calendar program, and I 
like it a lot.  Not only can I use the Gregorian calendar for my 
First Contact campaign info, but it also has the Imperial Calendar 
for games set in a more traditional Traveller setting.  (And it's 
versatile enough to handle adding a new calendar designed for my 
fantasy world, the next time I set up to run games in it.)

Thanks very much, Jim.  I've also enjoyed your Galactic 2.4, and am 
eagerly awaiting the development of the next version.  Combined with 
Stuart Ferris' World Builder Deluxe, the two make it very easy to 
create and keep up with a sector's worth of data or more, as detailed 
as the PCs want to get.  :)

Enjoy,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 15:56:04 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Benson?

>    And do not get me started on Darkstar, Benson, Arizona, or
>the talking bomb.  Loved that movie as well.  Almost the perfect
>movie for Traveller. And, the talking bomb steals the show for
>me.

Never seen Darkstar, but what's this about Benson, Arizona? I
grew up about 10 miles away from there...
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 15:56:47 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Corporate structure

     The recent discussion on the command structure of the
Imperial Army and Navy brings to mind some thoughts on
megacorporate structure.  Although these are usually less
strictly organized than the military, hierarchies have some
similarities wherever they occur.  Here are some suggestions:

     Most corporations, whatever their line of business, have the
equivalent of an "enlisted" class.  These are the ordinary
laborers or wage-earners.  

"Ranks" would be:
E1 Laborer
     (Unskilled or semi-skilled employees, skill level 0 or 1)
E2 Skilled
     (Regular employees, usually skill level 2)
E3 Assistant Foreman
     (skill level 2 or 3)
E4 Foreman
E5 Senior Foreman
Possibly higher ranks in larger organizations.

Professionals
     Some organizations consist chiefly of skilled professionals,
such as engineers, physicians, lawyers, or accountants.  These
positions usually require college level education and skill level
2, with appropriate certification by some credential-recognizing
body.  If employees, these are more often salaried than wage-
earning.

O1 Trainee
O2 Journeyman
O3 Senior Journeyman

Supervisors
     Most organizations also have an "officer" class, which
consists of salaried professionals.  These are either promoted
from laboring positions, or transferred from professional trainee
(O1) or higher positions after a couple of years of staff
experience.

O1 Assistant Supervisor
O2 Supervisor
O3 Shift Supervisor

Both
     Above O4, the professional and supervisory tracks merge, and
follow the T4 Bureacrat career titles as in Pocket Empires. Only
the titles are the same: the particular skills vary from one
profession or corporation to another.

O4 Assistant Manager
O5 Manager
O6 Senior Manager
O7 Executive
O8 Senior Executive
O9 Assist. Director
O10 Director.

The names of these ranks would differ from one profession to
another and from one company to another, but most organizations
have something similar.

Employees are also organized into groups of various sizes.

1. Crew. 2 to 6 employees, led by an E2 or E3. (O2 or O3 for
professional offices).
Typically one vehicle, one machine, a small retail establishment,
or professional office. Independent entrepreneurs and business
owners (even 1 person offices) are considered at least O2.

2. Team.  2 to 5 Crews: 10-25 employees. Led by an E3 to E5,  or
O1 or O2, depending on the job and the company. (O3 or O4 for
professionals)
Companies using unskilled labor often use large labor crews of 20
or so with a small supervisory crew. Complex tasks such as
production lines will use teams composed of crews of different
specialists.  Professional organizations make one of these a
secretarial or administrative crew. If composed of workers of one
specialty, a team is more often called a "staff".  Niche and
specialty manufacturers are often of this size.

3. Shift. 3 to 6 teams, 50-100 employees. Led by an O3 or O4,
assisted by E4, E5.  (O4 or O5 for professionals)
A common maximum for workers at one site at one time. A shift
will usually include teams of various types. Usually include
administrative and maintenance crews. Medium-size retailers,
small industrial and manufacturers.

4. Site. 3 to 6 shifts, 200-400 employees. Usually led by an O5.
Shifts are sometimes actually differentiated by location rather
than time. Common size for a large retail establishment.

5. Plant. 2 to 6 sites, 600-1500 employees. Usually led by O6.
Medium-scale industrial or manufacturing establishments.

6. Works.  2000 employees or more. Only the largest industries
have this many employees at any one site. These are major
employers and there should be no more than one or two of these
per million population or so.
 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #665
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 24 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 666



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: ADMIN: Movie Stuff and Off Topic Posts
Re: Benson?
re: Benson?
re: Asteroid-Hulled non-starships
PCs Playing Themselves As Characters
re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships
Re: Benson?
Re: Hard SF (was Re: A plea...)
OT: Morrow Project Mailing List
RE:  JimV's Calendar program...
Re: Gaming stores in Canada's Lake Ontario area.
Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero
re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
Re: Corporate structure
Re: JimV's Calendar program...
Re: Aslan ship color
Confederation log 1.7
Re: Benson?
Re: Asteroid-Hulled non-starships
Re: Hard SF (was Re: A plea...)
Re: Asteroid Hulls (was re: no one plays CT anymore)
Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 14:15:16 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Movie Stuff and Off Topic Posts

>>>> (begin quoted material)
Actually, I originally joined for Classic Traveller, but I realize no
one plays that anymore, so I just glean what I can from the list
(there
are tons of good ideas here) and convert it.
- - -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
>>>> (end qouted material)
There certainly are several people on this list who still primarily
play in the Classic era, and probably a few who still even use the rules
from those rulebooks.  I am one of those who focus on the Classic era,
but I am one of the heretics who use a different ruleset for the
mechanics (a blend of Runequest and the MT task rules).
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 13:22:23 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Benson?

From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Benson?


>>    And do not get me started on Darkstar, Benson, Arizona, or
>>the talking bomb.  Loved that movie as well.  Almost the perfect
>>movie for Traveller. And, the talking bomb steals the show for
>>me.
>
>Never seen Darkstar, but what's this about Benson, Arizona? I
>grew up about 10 miles away from there...


    There is a song in Darkstar, called Benson Arizona.  Anyway, I live in
Phoenix, AZ.  So I made the obscure referance.  *weg*

Legate Legion
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:24:14 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Benson?

Legate Legion wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>Never seen Darkstar, but what's this about Benson, Arizona? I
>grew up about 10 miles away from there...


    There is a song in Darkstar, called Benson Arizona.  Anyway, I live in
Phoenix, AZ.  So I made the obscure referance.  *weg*
>>>>>>>>
Isn't there a large meteor crater near the town mentioned in the song?
In the movie _Starman_, I think they had the Starman land (and leave)
from that crater. It made me think the crater was either famous, or the
makers of _Starman_ really liked _Dark Star_.

I always thought it was "Winslow Arizona", but my hearing was never
very good.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 13:36:50 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Asteroid-Hulled non-starships

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Asteroid-Hulled non-starships
.
>I've got a few in the Islands Cluster campaign we're running by email.
>I'm trying them as Monitors, I just wanted to experiment with the 
>highest armor available in the game at the TL. Armored planetoid
>with a honkin' big spinal mount, and most incoming meson fire will
>hit solid rock. "Star Fist", anyone? <G>

  I thought that your Barrier Class Defense Planetoid only had a
(respectable) armour USP of G?

The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"
        (but Space 1889 is quite cool, too)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 15:48:11 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters

Greetings, All,

For some strange reason this weekend, I had the bizarre thought of 
preparing a UPP describing myself in Traveller terms for my Project 
StarRise website.  (I think it was someone's sig file that finally 
latched on to the creative side of my brain; either that, or it was 
the article in Traveller's Digest 21, which described the staff of TD 
in Traveller terms.  Not sure which.  :)  It brought to mind some 
games I've played in and run in the past where the players played 
themselves expressed in the game system's statistics.

Not having done this in Traveller, I thought I would ask if anyone 
has run a game like that under any generation of the Traveller 
rules (including GURPS, although I've been there and done that, but 
not in a Traveller setting), set somehow in a Traveller milieu?  What 
was your gaming experience like?

(Despite how bizarre the idea might sound, most of the people who
have played in my "Play Yourself" games had a great time, despite the
fact that they may have entered play with a character background they
would otherwise not have played.  You get a lot of roleplaying 
fun and character development under this approach.  I've also had a 
blast playing versions of myself in AD&D, GURPS and HERO systems.)

Anyway, just some wandering thoughts I had.  Thanks for your time.  I 
now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, already in 
progress...

Happy Travelling,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:45:14 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>I've got a few in the Islands Cluster campaign we're running by email.
>I'm trying them as Monitors, I just wanted to experiment with the 
>highest armor available in the game at the TL. Armored planetoid
>with a honkin' big spinal mount, and most incoming meson fire will
>hit solid rock. "Star Fist", anyone? <G>

  I thought that your Barrier Class Defense Planetoid only had a
(respectable) armour USP of G?
>>>>>>>>>>
Wow, someone's actually reading the my designs... <G>

Named after famous reefs and other maritime hazards from Earth Oceans
and Terran maritime mythology, btw...Scylla, Maelstrom, etc.

As I said, it was an experiment. I tried it with the maximum armor rating,
had a volume problem, used a spreadsheet to optimize things downward
a bit, used the space left over from rounding to fit in a fighter wing.

It should be interesting to see how they do. Their agility is pretty low,
but they should take a while to go down. Since HG doesn't use
firing ship's agility as a modifier, they make a nice and stable
weapons platform for those Meson spinal mounts of theirs. <G>

Of course, the Sansterrean Defense Fleet would be happy to complete
the campaign with no shots fired in anger.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 14:05:22 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Benson?

Walter Smith wrote:
> 
> Legate Legion wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >Never seen Darkstar, but what's this about Benson, Arizona? I
> >grew up about 10 miles away from there...
> 
>     There is a song in Darkstar, called Benson Arizona.  Anyway, I live in
> Phoenix, AZ.  So I made the obscure referance.  *weg*
> >>>>>>>>
> Isn't there a large meteor crater near the town mentioned in the song?

The song is "Benson, Arizona", but the famous meteor crater is Meteor
Crater, far to the north. It's just off I-40 about 30-40 miles east of
Flagstaff. I do believe it is closest to Winslow, which is a bit farther
east IIRC.

Quote from my wife, who I dragged to see it on a recent vacation: "GO
BACK!! It's just a big HOLE in the ground" ;-)

I have NO clue why that song is in Darkstar, unless someone associated
with the movie is from there. It was original for the movie, too, IIRC.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 17:22:24 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: Hard SF (was Re: A plea...)

At 10:07 AM 5/24/99 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Rob Brady wrote:
>> 
>> I get a hokey feeling about the 100 diameter
>> limit (what does the diameter of a planet have to do with it's effect
>> on space-time?) and the fact that it takes one week to jump any
>> distance, no matter what the power of the j-drive. hmm...
>
>Well, actually, there's been considerable discussion about this on the
>list, and it turns out that tidal force (the rate of change if the
>gravity field) is probably a better indicator of where you can jump
>safely. For the average planet that works out to just about 100
>diameters. Go to the archives and search on 'tidal flux' it'll eb in
>there somewhere, but I don't have it handy So the "100 diameter rule" is
>a rough rule of thumb.

I found the 'FAQ' and I like it. I wish it was in the TML done to death
section... Then I would have never asked the question.

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/personal/traveller/jump.html
- -- 
Should've been dead on a Sunday morning
banging my head / no time for mourning
ain't got no time  -- Creed
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 14:24:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: OT: Morrow Project Mailing List

On Mon, 24 May 1999, Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:

> OT: Is there a living Morrow Project mailing list somewhere?

///CONFIRM CONFIRM CONFIRM///

PROJECT COMMUNICATION SET TO CHANNEL:
MP@nostromo.gate.net
for the Morrow Project Mailing List

Also available: MP Gearhead List. Inquire at above for specifics.

///SECURE COMMUNICATIONS LINK///
///END END END///


- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:33:57 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: RE:  JimV's Calendar program...

Jason Kemp
Subject:
>
>I've just downloaded and checked out Jim V's Calendar program, and I 
>like it a lot.  Not only can I use the Gregorian calendar for my 
>First Contact campaign info, but it also has the Imperial Calendar 
>for games set in a more traditional Traveller setting.  (And it's 
>versatile enough to handle adding a new calendar designed for my 
>fantasy world, the next time I set up to run games in it.)
>
>Thanks very much, Jim.  I've also enjoyed your Galactic 2.4, and am 
>eagerly awaiting the development of the next version.  Combined with 
>Stuart Ferris' World Builder Deluxe, the two make it very easy to 
>create and keep up with a sector's worth of data or more, as detailed 
>as the PCs want to get.  :)

AMEN!! These three pieces of software have made
my running a campaign *so* much easier it's
incredible.

You can even have two separate calenders for players
and the GM by placing copies of the Calendar software
in separate subdirectories and building a shortcut
to each one. This allows a GM to toggle between the
two during play (assuming he/she has access to a
desk/laptop during play).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 17:45:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Gaming stores in Canada's Lake Ontario area.

>Hey.  Next week I plan on circumnavigating Lake Ontario, with Canadian
>stops to include Ottawa, Toronto, and Niagara Falls.  Are there any
>particularly interesting FLGS in those cities or in the areas between them?
> Especially stores that carry a lot of old and out of print material
>(Traveller or other RPGs)?

The best stop would be Fandom II, in Ottawa.

In Toronto I'd recommend Hairy Tarantula. Julie and Leon are great folks,
and are sensible about discounts if you buy a lot of stuff and pay by cash
or direct debit.

Hm. Could this be an excuse for a Traveller Pub Night in Toronto?  There
are several of use here. When do you expect to be in Hogtown?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 17:45:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero

>>>       So my question is, just how do you handle setting up your
>>> "Spear Carriers" in your actual games, what works and what doesn't?
[snip]
>I used to get NPCs several ways. First off, I had a computer program
>that could generate characters (don't ask, it was for a different
>system, and is buried somewhere). I'd generate a few more random
>characters every week or when I was bored.

I've still got my program for generating MegaTraveller characters. Select
the career, click the generate button, and out comes a fully-generated
character, complete with physical description, psychological profile, and
motivations. Options allow for limiting the terms served (to get a bunch of
young grunts, say, instead of retired generals) and batch generation.

All you need is a Mac and a postcard....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 14:55:56
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero

At 06:51 PM 5/24/99 +0100, you wrote:

>I use the npc stats given in ACQ's draft - Doug, do you want to put a
>summary of the table here?

Table 14: NPC Characteristics

Type	UPP	APP	Morale	Skill
Green	6767xx	14	7	1
Regular	7787xx	14	11	2
Veteran	8898xx	17	14	4
Elite	9AA9xx	22	17	6

APP is Action Point Pool, which determines the actions a character/NPC can
execute each round.  Morale is the target number for moral based tasks.
This table is slanted towards combat-centered folks.  An award winning
researcher m=ight be Green, but have an EDU of F and Skill-5 in his area.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 23:04:50 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

"Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com> writes:
>And don't forget "Aliens", the sequel to "Alien".  "Aliens", IMO, was
>not only
>hard-core sci-fi, it was hardcore _Traveller_.  From what I can remember
>of
>the Colonial Marines characters, the writer just had to have played
>Traveller
>at some point in his life.

I'd disagree here. Aliens is hard-core 2300AD, not Traveller (with the
possible exception of the Chamax).

Alien:Resurrection is hard core Traveller (which is sad, considering that
it is the weakest of the four). The PC's, sorry, mercenaries behave just
like a typical Traveller group. Shame it was played for humour though. I
prefered Alien^3 to Resurrection (I know some will disagree).

Dom


- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 15:16:46 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Corporate structure

[snippage]
>
>      Most corporations, whatever their line of business, have the
> equivalent of an "enlisted" class.  These are the ordinary
> laborers or wage-earners.
>
> "Ranks" would be:
> E1 Laborer
>      (Unskilled or semi-skilled employees, skill level 0 or 1)
> E2 Skilled
>      (Regular employees, usually skill level 2)
> E3 Assistant Foreman
>      (skill level 2 or 3)
> E4 Foreman
> E5 Senior Foreman
> Possibly higher ranks in larger organizations.


Interesting, but I would break the rank structures up a bit more.  E1-E3
being unskilled/apprenticeship, E4-E6 being skilled/journeyman and E7-E9
being master/supervisory.

Then the 'O' levels could be reserved for management, O1-O3 being managers
(day to day responsibility), O4-O6 being operations (focusing on quarter and
yearly goals), O7-O9 being corporate officers (VP and up) focusing on the
long term goals and directions of the company.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 17:12:14 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: JimV's Calendar program...

Where can I look at this software?


"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:

> Jason Kemp
> Subject:
> >
> >I've just downloaded and checked out Jim V's Calendar program, and I
> >like it a lot.  Not only can I use the Gregorian calendar for my
> >First Contact campaign info, but it also has the Imperial Calendar
> >for games set in a more traditional Traveller setting.  (And it's
> >versatile enough to handle adding a new calendar designed for my
> >fantasy world, the next time I set up to run games in it.)
> >
> >Thanks very much, Jim.  I've also enjoyed your Galactic 2.4, and am
> >eagerly awaiting the development of the next version.  Combined with
> >Stuart Ferris' World Builder Deluxe, the two make it very easy to
> >create and keep up with a sector's worth of data or more, as detailed
> >as the PCs want to get.  :)
>
> AMEN!! These three pieces of software have made
> my running a campaign *so* much easier it's
> incredible.
>
> You can even have two separate calenders for players
> and the GM by placing copies of the Calendar software
> in separate subdirectories and building a shortcut
> to each one. This allows a GM to toggle between the
> two during play (assuming he/she has access to a
> desk/laptop during play).

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:38:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael A Newman <manst4+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Aslan ship color

There is a reference to Alsan ship coloration in DGP's Solomani and Aslan.
The description of the Clan Transport reads: "The sight of one of these
ships is unforgettable.  The large, bulbous hull is usually painted in
fiery orange and reds.  Ornate yoyeaokhtef (calligraphic script) snake
along the surface, curling between contours."  Hope this is in time.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:02:35 -0700
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Confederation log 1.7

Howdy all.

I'm starting to think I need a real name for this game as opposed to
simply "The Confederation of Nightrim."  maybe Sinners or "Badges?  We
don't need no stinking badges!"...  Or something like that.

Anyway the whole point of this letter is to let you all know that last
nights session went well, involved some gunplay, and lasted nearly 5
hours so there's 20 pages of data log for you all to read through.

Once again, please excuse the spelling, and enjoy your read.

http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Logbook/1_7.html

DS
http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Home.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 19:02:55 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Benson?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
To: 'TML' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, May 24, 1999 4:39 PM
Subject: re: Benson?


>Isn't there a large meteor crater near the town mentioned in the song?
>In the movie _Starman_, I think they had the Starman land (and leave)
>from that crater. It made me think the crater was either famous, or the
>makers of _Starman_ really liked _Dark Star_.


Dark Star was done by John Carpenter and Dan O'Bannon. Starman was done by
John Carpenter. I'd like to think that John Carpenter liked his own film. ;)

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
Looking for other Traveller players in your area?
Looking to run a PBEM game? Check out:
http://www.pil.net/~semo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:38:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Asteroid-Hulled non-starships

In mail you write:

>>   I have to entertain some doubts as to whether anyone would actually do
>> something as strange as build asteroid-hulled warships...
>
> I've got a few in the Islands Cluster campaign we're running by email.
> I'm trying them as Monitors, I just wanted to experiment with the 
> highest armor available in the game at the TL. Armored planetoid
> with a honkin' big spinal mount, and most incoming meson fire will
> hit solid rock. "Star Fist", anyone? <G>

I figure that "fortresses" built into kilometer thick or better nickel
iron bodies ought to be a feature of many systems. Give them minimal
thruster capability (say .001 g) both to move them from the belt, and
to prevent them being stationary targets for *big* kinetic kill
projectiles. Small ones they can pretty much ignore. 

And with such *huge* bodies, if you can keep the interior layout a
secret, meson fire is going to be *really* ineffective. You'll have to
either fire at random, or else try laying down a pattern of fire
throughout the entire volume of the body. That'll take a *long* time.
And since it can mount a *bigger* meson gun, you'll be in range before
it is. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:44:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Hard SF (was Re: A plea...)

In mail you write:

> At 10:04 PM 5/22/99 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>> there are only 5 colonies), and Jump drives will start working 
>>> somewhat like rec.arts.sf.science, or the physics faq says they
>>> should.
>>
>>How is that? The only problem with Jump drive that I'm aware of is the
>>way Traveller *assumes* simultaneity across distance.
>>
>
> Hmm... I wrote before thinking. The jump drives do work similarly to
> what The Quick and Dirty rec.arts.sf.science FAQ 
> http://www.sirius.com/~treitel/rass/qdfaq.html 
> which pretty much points to The Relativity and FTL Travel FAQ on
> this point
> http://www.physics.purdue.edu/~hinson/ftl/FTL_StartingPoint.html
>
> say they should, but I get a hokey feeling about the 100 diameter
> limit (what does the diameter of a planet have to do with it's effect
> on space-time?)

I'm one of the folks that says it's just a "rule of thumb". The *real*
limit is based on the curvature of space being below a certain limit.
It's just that for typical planetary *densities*, that limit works out
to about 100 diameters. 

If you want to work out the formula for yourself, work out this:
	X=M/R^3

Where M = 1 earth mass and R = 10 and 100 diameters of a size 8 planet.
That'll give you the curvature value for those two distances. Then you
can work out the "real" limits for other bodies by plugging into this:
	R=cuberoot(X/M)

You'll get the same "10 diam" and "100 diam" answers for planets with
"standard density" as given in the rules. For things like stars and gas
giants, that have *lower* densities, the limits will be much closer in.

> and the fact that it takes one week to jump any
> distance, no matter what the power of the j-drive. hmm...

"Obviously" a quantum effect of some sort. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:25:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Asteroid Hulls (was re: no one plays CT anymore)

In mail you write:

> I was thinking in terms of each asteroid used as a hull being slightly
> different - different densities for different areas, the center of gravity
> is thirty meters to the left of *here* so the axis of *this* thruster has to 
> be tilted five degrees *this way*, *that* piece of the rock has some
> funny magnetic properties, so we have to chop it out and that will mean
> too much of the fuel spaces are on *this* side, that kind of thing. If 
> you're 
> going to chop and shape the nickel-iron asteroids all to the same shape
> and internal structure, you're spending more on them than towing and
> fusion tunneling, IMO. That's why I think of each asteroid ship as custom-
> built, because each asteroid should have it's own idiosyncrasies.

Remember, these bodies aren't *like* terestrial rocks. These formed
from a single melt, cooling slowly. No intrusions of other rock types.

The stony types may have a transition from one type of rock to another
(different minerals crystallize out of the melt at different temps, and
there is a gravity gradient to let the crystals settle to the bottom of
the melt). Though such transitions are likely places for the rock to
have seperated when a collision spalls chunks off of the colliding
bodies. 

Nickel iron bodies are going to be *very* uniform. And for ship sized
bodies, you can set up solar mirrors to *melt* the nickel iron and let
it cool at an ideal rate for annealing. That eliminates cracks and
flaws. It does add to the construction time, but that's about it.

BTW, when you chop out that "odd" chunk of rock, what's to stop you
from *filling in* the space with rock you've removed from elsewhere?
With *current* technology, you could rig a "plasma sprayer" that'd
spray droplets of molten rock into the cavity, where they'd quickly
fuse with the rock. You just spray back and forth and build up a layer
of "normal" rock. The end result will be a "patch" of nice, uniform
rock. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 21:51:44 EDT
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters

It's pretty easy to sit down and convert the PCs into Traveller characters.  
I got the idea years ago after watching "High Risk", a pretty cheesy late 
70's movie in which a gaggle of down on their luck ordinary joes head down to 
South America to rip off the Mr Big of the cocaine cartel.  For me, the key 
was that character generation was a group activity where the players had 
ample opportunity to challenge some of the players delusions of grandeur, but 
also allowed the players real world skills to come to the fore.  It does help 
if you have an interesting group, as we always did.  
As a general rule, I'd tell them that the average adult is a 7 in all stats, 
then we'd go from there.  For skills we used the rule thumb that a level 0 
implied familiarity (i.e. a Red Cross certificate for first aid allowed a 
medic-0) up to 3-4 for professional level knowledge.  Very seldom did anyone 
push for more.  

After creating the stats, I'd set the stage by telling them that it was a 
saturday night and they had gathered for some Traveller action, then reveal 
my secret plan which would make them all rich.  The trick was, the plane was 
leaving in 3 hours, and if we missed it the scheme would collapse.  That 
started it with a bang and helped to prevent too much "organizing" by the 
players.

A few fond memories include:

The frantic hustle to prepare, as players maxed out their credit cards buying 
gear, swiped guns from family members, and assembled a motley assortment of 
camoflage and costumes.  I was always impressed that at least one guy would 
insist on staying comfortable in shorts and t-shirt while the rest did their 
best commando impressions.

"I" almost always got killed, and the players usually agreed I had it coming 
for getting them into such a spot.

The guy (not a regular member of the group) who wanted to know what his 
social standing was based on the fact that he grew up in one of the most 
depressed areas of town, dropped out of high school, was dishonorably 
discharged from the Army, worked in a travelling carnival for several years 
before going on unemployment.  The group consensus was "2".  

The time the players opened the safe and were in a hurry to leave.  I said 
that it was so packed with money that it would take several minutes to stow 
in their bags. Then, the guy who was a bagboy at the local market forcefully 
said "I have a Sacking skill of 4", so they were soon packed and gone.

Numerous examples of the use of weapons, riding beasts, and attempting 
communication, in other languages, and parachuting with no skill.

The time I returned it to Traveller's sci-fi purpose by allowin them to get 
deep in trouble, and then allowing the aliens from Pournele's "Janissaries" 
to show up offering them such a deal!

The use of flaming attack chickens to provide for a distraction.

The player, a real estate saleman in real life who took along the tools of 
his trade, and bluffed his way into the baddies compund by showing up and 
knocking on the door.

I could go on, but won't.  I can say that they guys I know always love these 
sessions, and look forward to them as special events.  I recommend that you 
give em a try.



 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #666
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 25 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 667



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters
Re: Asteroid Hulls (was re: no one plays CT anymore) 
Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters
Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero
Re:  Spear Carriers and Joe Genero
Re: Missle acceleration
Earthlight
Re: Dark Star
Re: Dark Star
Re: Asteroid-Hulled non-starships
Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters
Re: GT: Far Trader Trade Routes, try two.
Re: Missiles and stuff
Aliens/Traveller
Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships
Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters
Re: Asteroid Hulls (was re: no one plays CT anymore)
Re: Corporate structure

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:16:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

In mail you write:

> At 01:45 PM 5/24/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>>One of my favorite lines from Aliens went something like this:
>>>
>>>"I don't know if your up on current evens man, but we just got our asses
>>>kicked!"
>>
>>
>>As a referee, my favorite line from a sci fi movie: "Apology accepted,
>>Captain Needa."
>>
>>The evil emperor Lucan often used a line similar to this in a Star Warsish
>>Megatraveller game I ran some while ago now (Star Wars: The Shattered
>>Imperium). After seeing TPM, I am certain this is to be the next type of
>>game I'll run. After the upcoming Morrow Project: Reign of Steel campaign I
>>have planned, that is. A MARS team on an Earth ruled by robots -- woo hoo!
>
> Kurt (whos is doing four seperate teams in a Morrow Project/MegaTraveller
> crossover with some Hiver manipulation for spice!)

I've never played MP, but a roomie ran it for a while. He had me help
him with details on a surprise for the players. A *functional* Thor
system (orbit to ground kinetic kill). 

I don't know if it was on automatic or being run by baddies on the
ground. But it certainly scared the hell out of his players. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 22:27:21 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

At 06:16 PM 5/24/99 -0800, you wrote:

>> Kurt (whos is doing four seperate teams in a Morrow Project/MegaTraveller
>> crossover with some Hiver manipulation for spice!)
>
>I've never played MP, but a roomie ran it for a while. He had me help
>him with details on a surprise for the players. A *functional* Thor
>system (orbit to ground kinetic kill). 
>
>I don't know if it was on automatic or being run by baddies on the
>ground. But it certainly scared the hell out of his players. 

We did the Thor routine in one of the campaigns.  After it snuffed their
base, on player remarked, "Now that I gotta have!"

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 21:46:59 -0500
From: "William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters

heh... The only time I played one was a ADD campaign; the DM had said, the
week before, that he'd be doing it. The kicker was we could only take along
with us what we were carrying on us at the time. Being a college student
who'd just gotten out of the active army, I was feeling a bit smarmy.

Let's see... I trying to get on the School fencing team - hence I had my
stainless steel (conned into being +1 ;) sabre along, a very nice Gerber
dagger (stainless steel as well - also covered by the +1 con ;), and most
importantly, one of those "how things work" encyclopedias; this one was on
weapons. It had a nice cut away of both a wheel lock and a flintlock as well
as a valid recipe for black powder...

Let us simply say that continents economy was rather _different_ after we'd
been there 20 years...

(Oh, I also had a copy of the original version (pre RPG justifying) of
"Authentic Thaumaturgy" (SP? The checker barfs on that for some funny
reason... ;'p  ) Said GM also got lead by the nose to give me a 1st and a
2nd level spell. Forget off had what they were, but they _helped_ several
times...)

I could never get away with that much in a Trav Play yourself - going up
TL's is Much more hairy than going down. Still, I think I could play a
"interesting" TL7 "Barbarian" for a while...   ;'> Gack - Anyone up to a
Play Yourself PBEM???




> It's pretty easy to sit down and convert the PCs into Traveller characters.
(snip)

William
- --
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com
road and may God's blessing be with           |
you always.                                   |
St. Claire                                    |

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 22:42:16 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroid Hulls (was re: no one plays CT anymore) 

> In mail you write:
> 
> > I was thinking in terms of each asteroid used as a hull being slightly
> > different - different densities for different areas, the center of gravity
> > is thirty meters to the left of *here* so the axis of *this* thruster has to 
> > be tilted five degrees *this way*, *that* piece of the rock has some
> > funny magnetic properties, so we have to chop it out and that will mean
> > too much of the fuel spaces are on *this* side, that kind of thing. If 
> > you're 
> > going to chop and shape the nickel-iron asteroids all to the same shape
> > and internal structure, you're spending more on them than towing and
> > fusion tunneling, IMO. That's why I think of each asteroid ship as custom-
> > built, because each asteroid should have it's own idiosyncrasies.
> 
> Remember, these bodies aren't *like* terestrial rocks. These formed
> from a single melt, cooling slowly. No intrusions of other rock types.

Maybe.  We don't know for sure yet.
 
> BTW, when you chop out that "odd" chunk of rock, what's to stop you
> from *filling in* the space with rock you've removed from elsewhere?
> With *current* technology, you could rig a "plasma sprayer" that'd
> spray droplets of molten rock into the cavity, where they'd quickly
> fuse with the rock. You just spray back and forth and build up a layer
> of "normal" rock. The end result will be a "patch" of nice, uniform
> rock. 

I'm not sure this would be as strong as the original rock.  We'll have to see this one happen in real before I'll believe it...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 20:02:00 -0700
From: James Brewer <jwbrewer@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

<<From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net> >>



At http://www.en.com/users/flynn/Morrow/morrow.html "Morrow Project Prime
Base" you can find two Morrow Project Mailing Lists.

Phil Cottrell's ComSAT News Letter mailing list is a source of some good
information on new developements in the Morrow Project Universe. To
subscribe just click on the link and ask Phil to add you to the
list.<<MP-request@nostromo.gate.net>>
The Morrow Project Mailing List is a great place to exchange ideas with
other players and Project Directors. To join please click the link, and
mail the listserver. Dont forget to leave the subject line blank, and don't
include a sig file.<<MP-request@nostromo.gate.net>>

                        Your message body should read: add (your Email
address) MP

If you have any problems, please e-mail the list administrator Randy
Vice.<<damocles@nostromo.gate.net>>"

Jim Brewer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 23:08:52 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters

There's a neat section in the T4.1  drafts that allow you to rate yourself in 
Traveller terms, I think it'd be a great addition to the T5 rulebook.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 23:03:34 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero

In a message dated 5/24/99 6:03:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< 
 Table 14: NPC Characteristics
 
 Type	UPP	APP	Morale	Skill
 Green	6767xx	14	7	1
 Regular	7787xx	14	11	2
 Veteran	8898xx	17	14	4
 Elite	9AA9xx	22	17	6 >>


		Ah-HA!  That's the sort of thing I was looking for!   
Methinks I will like ACQ.
	This is the sort of thing that's great for merc scenarios, so you can 
have a general idea of the effectiveness of unit memebers, Thanks.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 13:31:02 +1000
From: "ab" <ab@rossmack.com>
Subject: Re:  Spear Carriers and Joe Genero

This is an idea taken from Victory Games' James Bond 007 RPG:

It uses two pre-generated tables, one with a list of attributes, another
with a list of skills.  Different tables are pre-generated for different NPC
types.  Usually the entries clustered around the middle of the table are
more common than the ones at the extremes.


(1)  Roll 2d6 twice:  first for attributes, second for skills.

(2)  Modify attributes and skills by desired NPC level.

(3)  Use common sense to force-fit to situation.  (eg:  Substitute Laser
Carbine skill with Shotgun if that's what you feel the NPCs would be armed
with.)

Example:

Guards and Soldiers Table

Attributes
2     ST:  9  EN:  8  DX:  A  IN:  8  ED:  6  SO:  7
3     ST:  8  EN:  9  DX:  9  IN:  9  ED:  7  SO:  8
         :
         :
12     ST:  A  EN:  9  DX:  8  IN:  8  ED:  9  SO:  7

NPC Level:  Novice: -2  Experienced:  0  Veteran:  +2


Skills
2     Rifle-2, Grav-1, Recon-1, Blade-1
3     SMG-3, ATV-1, Blade-2, Brawling-1
         :
         :
12   Laser Carbine-2, Small Boat-1, Survival-2, Cutlass-3

NPC Level:  Novice: -1  Experienced:  0  Veteran:  +1


As to what is an appropriate level to rig the tables at - I usually consider
that typical military types will have slightly superior physical stats (say
888777 or 898777) while typical sedentary workers will have slightly
decreased physical stats.  (say 666887 or 565898).

Elite military types will tend to also have all stats elevated (say 9A99A7
or BA8898).

On the whole however, I find that spear carriers with 777777 stats can be
much more of a challenge than CCD9B9 if the 777777's are played as trained
and therefore act intelligently versus highly rated but stupidly portrayed
NPCs.  Overriding all this is the requirement that the NPCs be so balanced
as to give the players an enjoyable and appropriate challenge.

- -AB

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 13:31:18 +1000
From: "ab" <ab@rossmack.com>
Subject: Re: Missle acceleration

Rob Brady wrote:

>In book 2 it was never mentioned, but what would the acceleration
of a missle be?

Page 41 of the Traveller Deluxe rules (y'know, the one with a
one-dimensional range band system instead of vectors) states "...missiles
move as if they were ships with maneuver drive-6."

- -AB

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 13:30:48 +1000
From: "ab" <ab@rossmack.com>
Subject: Earthlight

Ian Ferguson wrote:

>Was that the same story that revolved around a war between
>Terra/Luna and the colonies on the other planets? As I 
>recall, the protagonist was assigned to discover a
>suspected spy operating at an astronomic research
>facility on Luna. IIRC there is a great battle scene in
>which highly mobile out-planet ships attack a base on Luna
>that is protected by a mirror-like force field. The spy was
>communicating with the out-planets in a clever manner,
>revealed at the end of the story.

Yes.  Clarke's description of the battle is excellent.

- -AB

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 13:31:10 +1000
From: "ab" <ab@rossmack.com>
Subject: Re: Dark Star

Chris Seamans wrote:

>Every plot element from Dark Star can be told in just about any time
period.

A self-aware thermonuclear device postulates a fairly advanced tech level.

- -AB

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 00:00:01 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Dark Star

- -----Original Message-----
From: ab <ab@rossmack.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, May 24, 1999 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: Dark Star


>Chris Seamans wrote:
>
>>Every plot element from Dark Star can be told in just about any time
>period.
>
>A self-aware thermonuclear device postulates a fairly advanced tech level.


And so does a Death Star... which was my point.

I'm willing to accept that Star Wars is the peasant hero myth cycle and can
be told in any time period or genre. There are plenty of mythological and
literary parallels to Dark Star. I'm not going to go any further because it
is beyond the scope of the list and a potential spoiler for folks who
haven't seen this excellent film. If you'd like to discuss this further, I'd
be glad to in e-mail.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 21:28:37 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Asteroid-Hulled non-starships

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Asteroid-Hulled non-starships
...
>And with such *huge* bodies, if you can keep the interior layout a
>secret, meson fire is going to be *really* ineffective. You'll have to
>either fire at random, or else try laying down a pattern of fire
>throughout the entire volume of the body. That'll take a *long* time.
>And since it can mount a *bigger* meson gun, you'll be in range before
>it is. :-)

  If the attacking meson gun is big enough then the main issue will be
one of light lag and its effects on firing solutions, in which case the
effectively stationary weapon platform may still lose to even a single
battlewagon.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 22:33:59 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters

The superhero RPG "Villains & Vigilantes", which had its heyday back 
in the 1980's, had the players do just that -- according to the rules, 
the players used their own selves as templates for their super characters 
(then had a bunch of random tables for power generation). 

Most of the time, we ignored this rule and just rolled the stats 
randomly, but we did try once to do a super group based on the rules.
What I was most afraid of beforehand was having arguments about what
levels our stats are. ("I do *so* have a 14 Intelligence!") (on a 3d6
scale, with 10 as the baseline for the "average" person). What we got
was quite the opposite... ("You're a very personable kind of guy, I 
don't see why you can't have a 16 Charisma...") 

More recently, some fellow gamers and I came up with the GURPS advantages
and disadvantages for ourselves and a few other people we knew. (eg, "Bad
Sight" for myself, being blind as a post without glasses or contacts. Also
a 5-point caffiene addiction.) But we never actually used that in a game.

ObTrav (sort of): the challenge in using the players themselves as PCs
in a Traveller game is how to get the characters to jump forward in time
nearly 3500 years to the time of the Imperium...  :)

Turning this around: has anyone reading this ever run (or been in) a
scenario in which the Imperium-era PCs wound up travelling back in time
to present-day Earth?


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:18:06 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: GT: Far Trader Trade Routes, try two.

>From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
>Subject: GT: Far Trader Trade Routes, try two.
>
>I never recieved any input on this question so I will 
>make a second try at asking for assistance.
>
>In the GT: Far Trader bood, it mentions that you should 
>follow the route of heaviest trade when presented with two 
>choices. What about when that will cause the trade to 
>drop down on the trade chart? At low levels, that probably 
>would make little to no differnence but as you rise, that 
>can make a significant monitary amount per year. I am guessing 
>that it would matter on a BTN of 5 and above. At a 5, it 
>seems that some enterprising soul would be willing to comit 
>his free trader to the 100KCr - 500KCr traffic. 

That level of trade is only 10-50 dtons a year - the other thing to think
of is the holding costs. Sure, you could wait until the bi-annual
Boondocks-Back'O'Bourke Express comes around, or you could send it the long
way on the monthly freighter from Boondocks to Big Smoke, and then from Big
Smoke to Back'O'Bourke. This might be more expensive, but if it's fifteen
months faster ...

>Below that it 
>seems too little to matter. Above this, it cerainly seems 
>like they would not go a longer route if it lost half a 
>million credits, or more, in trade, per year. Opinions?  
>
>Also, Far Trader mentions that if there is no trade route, 
>but enough trade for a minor route to give it one. My question 
>there is, can I use the same sort of combining of multiple 
>trade routes of the same size into a larger one as is done 
>with the main routes? The book has three minor routes becoming 
>one feeder route. The way I have that figured, since the rule 
>is not specific, is that if there are two BTN's of 8 and one 8.5, 
>they become one 9.0. If it were two 8.5 and one 8.0, they would 
>become one 9.5. Is that a valid interpritation? 

I'd say no. The two 8.5s would add to about GCr 1.5 - bottom of the 9.0
level. You could add ten 8.0 routes (total GCr 2.5), and still be in about
the middle of 9.0 territory with GCr 4.0.

The three-for-one is a bit of an approximation. It's a log scale, so three
MCr250/8.0s should add to a MCr 750/8.5 (a "frequent minor" route) rather
than to a MCr1000/9.0 "feeder" route.

>I would use 
>the smaller trade routes in the same way, combining similar small 
>routes into one of the next rough integer up. Three 4.0 would become 
>one 5.0. two 4.5 and one 4.0 would become a 5.5. Is that a valid 
>rules interpretation? 

As a general case, I'd say no. Two x.5 routes should round up to x+1, but
you need ten x.0s or five x.0s and a x.5 to turn into an x+1.

>
>I need to know these things so as to create a valid picture of 
>all the trade in the sector. There is a lot of trade below the 
>minor level and combined it would make an impact on the overall 
>map.

Because of the log scale, I'm inclined to think it wouldnt have that much
of an effect. You would need about a hundred 6.0 routes to turn into one 8.0.

I'm very interested in what you come out with btw :)

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:01:05 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Missiles and stuff

>From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
>Subject: Re:Missiles and stuff
>
>At 10:17 AM 5/23/99 +1100, you wrote:
>>My Gurps guru is designing something on these lines, but imagine if you
>>have 10 reloads, 2 firing ports and 2 crewstations. You double your combat
>>RoF, and lets face it, who could use all 70 reloads anyway ?
>
>While in PC situations you usually only need a couple of shots, remember
>that in a protracted military situation a warship may need to expend
>hundreds of missiles and maintain the ability to fire for hours at a time.
>And at least IMTU, most ship weapons the PCs have started out as military
>designs (whether surplus or just a "New! Special Civilian Model!").  So the
>70+ reloads makes sense to me.

The key to a successful missile attack is to overload the target's point
defense. The number of missiles a target can deal with is often known as
it's "saturation number". Generally speaking, a target can deal with up to
it's saturation number until the cows come home, but saturation number plus
one will equal one hit, saturation number plus two will equal two hits etc
etc.

Therefore, the key isnt so much sustainability of fire, but getting enough
missiles onto the target in a small enough window of time to saturate their
defenses and hurt them.

Thus for starship combat, you want to maximise RoF at the expense of
sustainability. Doing anything else than this just results in their
point-defense crews getting target practice.

Ian Whitchurch 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:23:20 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Aliens/Traveller

- -----Original Message-----
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, 25 May 1999 8:19
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint


>"Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com> writes:
>>And don't forget "Aliens", the sequel to "Alien".  "Aliens", IMO, was
>>not only
>>hard-core sci-fi, it was hardcore _Traveller_.  From what I can remember
>>of
>>the Colonial Marines characters, the writer just had to have played
>>Traveller
>>at some point in his life.
>
>I'd disagree here. Aliens is hard-core 2300AD, not Traveller (with the
>possible exception of the Chamax).
>
>Alien:Resurrection is hard core Traveller (which is sad, considering that
>it is the weakest of the four). The PC's, sorry, mercenaries behave just
>like a typical Traveller group. Shame it was played for humour though. I
>prefered Alien^3 to Resurrection (I know some will disagree).
>
>Dom
>

From what I read before the release of Aliens4, the makers and writers
wanted to pretend that Aliens3 never happened in the 4th movie... I was
hoping, but they mad reference to it, so it wasn't a dream sequence or
anything...

From what I was lead to believe, mostly hard-core sci-fi buffs really loved
it (as they needed a s/f fix... anything man!!!!!), but that's not a bad
thing either.  Cinifex (spelling?) at the time, said they never made 3 the
way it was intended, and didn't even film 30% of the script!  Maybe it could
have been great.

I do agree that A4 was the most Traveller-like of the lot!  The humour was
less than what one might find in an actual RPG session of any game.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:53:55 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships

At 12:02 24/05/1999 -0400, Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>IIRC, in the first edition of High Guard there was a limit on how much
>armour you could add to a ship. Asteroid armour didn't count against this,
>so when you combined the two armours asteroid hulls had the maximum armour
>(at a given tech level).

correct, at TL15 you can have metal armour 15, factor 18 if it is a planetoid
and factor 21 for a buffered planetoid.

Buffered planetoids also have the best configuration defence against
Meson Guns of any armoured ship (ie better than needle/wedge, almost
as good as dispersed structure.)

The downside is having to move all that "rock" around (35% waste space).

This is true for High Guard 2nd edition as well.

However, if you're using FF&S or later, you move the ship around by mass
instead of volume, so things should improve. Against this, the upper limits
on metal armour disappear.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 00:26:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters

In mail you write:

> It's pretty easy to sit down and convert the PCs into Traveller characters.  

The only time I played in such a game, the GM handed us character
sheets. 

> After creating the stats, I'd set the stage by telling them that it was a 
> saturday night and they had gathered for some Traveller action, then reveal 
> my secret plan which would make them all rich.  The trick was, the plane was 
> leaving in 3 hours, and if we missed it the scheme would collapse.  That 
> started it with a bang and helped to prevent too much "organizing" by the 
> players.

We were playing D&D and the "setup" was being told that during a game
one of us made the usual disparging remarks about "gods" after beating
one (we'd been playing in the same campaign for 10 years, we actually
had *non*-munchlins that copuld take on that sort of thing). Anyway,
the roof peels back and a voice says "You think it's easy?" and we wake
up in a D&D world.

> A few fond memories include:
>
> The frantic hustle to prepare, as players maxed out their credit
> cards buying gear, swiped guns from family members, and assembled a
> motley assortment of camoflage and costumes.

Don't try this with me sand my friends. We could oufit a few mercs
without going out and buying *anything*. And my late friend the
gunsmith had all sorts of stuff we'd never be able to buy.

> The time the players opened the safe and were in a hurry to leave.  I said 
> that it was so packed with money that it would take several minutes to stow 
> in their bags. Then, the guy who was a bagboy at the local market forcefully 
> said "I have a Sacking skill of 4", so they were soon packed and gone.

I love it!

> Numerous examples of the use of weapons, riding beasts, and attempting 
> communication, in other languages, and parachuting with no skill.

In the D&D game, the GM learned the hard way that some of us had lots
of obscure stuff memorized. For example, not only was I able to
describe how to make gunpowder from *scratch*, I also knew how to make
various acids, and several other things. 

I made a small fortune by building explosion proof lamps for the local
miners. You basicly order "cloth of copper" *gauze* from the weavers
guild, and use it as screening around the flame. I also introduced
carbide lamps (have a mage throw some lightning bolts into a trench
full of mixed coke and limestone. The result is calcium carbide). 

> The time I returned it to Traveller's sci-fi purpose by allowin them to get 
> deep in trouble, and then allowing the aliens from Pournele's "Janissaries" 
> to show up offering them such a deal!

Our GM started getting worried when I proved that I remembered enough
of the process to be able to produce phosgene with a bit of trial and
error. The final straw was when I and a physics major started planning
on how to build a nuclear reactor. We planned on handling work in "hot"
zones by using expendable personnel. Mostly orcs and condemned
criminals. Our bombs would have been low yield, and dirty as hell. But
they'd have worked. 

The GM decided we should do something else... :-)


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 00:44:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Asteroid Hulls (was re: no one plays CT anymore)

In mail you write:

>> BTW, when you chop out that "odd" chunk of rock, what's to stop you
>> from *filling in* the space with rock you've removed from elsewhere?
>> With *current* technology, you could rig a "plasma sprayer" that'd
>> spray droplets of molten rock into the cavity, where they'd quickly
>> fuse with the rock. You just spray back and forth and build up a layer
>> of "normal" rock. The end result will be a "patch" of nice, uniform
>> rock. 
>
> I'm not sure this would be as strong as the original rock.  We'll have to 
> see this one happen in real before I'll believe it...

They use essentially the same process to make synthetic rubies and
sapphires for things like bearing. They are plenty strong.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 12:06:48 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Corporate structure

At 15:56 24/05/1999 -0400, Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com> wrote:

<snip>

>6. Works.  2000 employees or more. Only the largest industries
>have this many employees at any one site. These are major
>employers and there should be no more than one or two of these
>per million population or so.

This should be highly tech level dependent.

Rare at low tech, at industrial age tech multi-thousand employee
sites should be quite common and form a significant proportion of
the workforce.
As tech increases, diversity of production and the improved ability
for remote working reduces the size of a works.

A balance to this are works (such as an office block) where many
companies share the same building.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #667
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 25 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 668



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
re: Dark Star
Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Good-bye for now
re: PC's Playing Themselves as Characters (OT)
RE: quips
Re: Boston area headcount
Re: GT: Far Trader Trade Routes, try two.
Re: Boston area headcount
Re: Boston area headcount
re: Car Rental
RE: Missle acceleration
Re: Fwd: Megatraveller ship design
RE: PCs playing themselves as characters
Re: Boston area headcount
Re: questions on Rogue CharGen
Re: JimV's Calendar program...
"Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Boston area headcount

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 12:34:26 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters

At 15:48 24/05/1999 -0600, "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us> wrote:

<snip>

>Not having done this in Traveller, I thought I would ask if anyone 
>has run a game like that under any generation of the Traveller 
>rules (including GURPS, although I've been there and done that, but 
>not in a Traveller setting), set somehow in a Traveller milieu?  What 
>was your gaming experience like?

Not in Traveller, but in Call of Cuthulu (and not all the players,
but the fax repairman played a fax repairman with very similar
skills and stats.

I'd used some of his workmates as NPCs but found the player-NPC
interaction somewhat lacking...

...there was no sense of regret or sadness when he found
his boss' mutilated body...

...nor at the loss of the rest of his workmates.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 00:51:05 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

>>Well, how about Alien? Wasn't that made in 1977 or so? 

Coincidentally, it was released 25 years ago from today.

But it's still a good movie. 

>And don't forget "Aliens", the sequel to "Alien".  "Aliens", IMO, was
>not only hard-core sci-fi, it was hardcore _Traveller_.  

I agree completely. 

>One of the best one-liners from that show that's a permanent part
>of my campaigns occurred when the Marines were ordered to continue a
>hostile-area patrol without ammo. One of them replied:
>
>     What are we supposed to use?  Harsh language?

And of course the all-time favourite exchange  :

"Hey Vasquez, anyone ever istaken you for a man ?"
"No. How about you ?"

Or :

"Hey lieutenant, is this another bug-hunt ?"
"There may be a xenomorph involved."
"It's a bug hunt."

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 00:53:20 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

>One of my favorite lines from Aliens went something like this:
>
>"I don't know if your up on current evens man, but we just got our asses
>kicked!"

Followed more or less by  the classic "Game over, man"

Showing that  video games are designed to create marines. 

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 08:58:17 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Dark Star

AB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>Every plot element from Dark Star can be told in just about any time
period.

A self-aware thermonuclear device postulates a fairly advanced tech level.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Replace it with a polite, but fanatical soldier - who happens to have his
finger on the button of a regular atomic bomb. 

It's the bomb's job to destroy something so that others will be saved.
This mission has become confused - the bomb believes the self-
sacrifice is important, rather than the desired end result (a safe star
system). This perverted ethic of self-sacrifice is common in war
stories - the officer who is determined to die with honor and glory,
rather than do his job, for example.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 00:59:22 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

>>I've never played MP, but a roomie ran it for a while. He had me help
>>him with details on a surprise for the players. A *functional* Thor
>>system (orbit to ground kinetic kill). 
>>
>>I don't know if it was on automatic or being run by baddies on the
>>ground. But it certainly scared the hell out of his players. 
>
>We did the Thor routine in one of the campaigns.  After it snuffed their
>base, on player remarked, "Now that I gotta have!"

I always liked the weapon from Akira for such games. 

You should see the fights over the hand-held target designator !

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:17:29 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Good-bye for now

I'm going off-list for about 2 weeks as I will be traveling (with just one
l, unfortunately) and have very sporadic email access.  If anyone needs to
get in touch with me, try private email, I don't know how often I'll be
able to check it, but I'll try.


          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:21:58 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: PC's Playing Themselves as Characters (OT)

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In the D&D game, the GM learned the hard way that some of us had lots
of obscure stuff memorized. For example, not only was I able to
describe how to make gunpowder from *scratch*, I also knew how to make
various acids, and several other things. 

I made a small fortune by building explosion proof lamps for the local
miners. You basicly order "cloth of copper" *gauze* from the weavers
guild, and use it as screening around the flame. I also introduced
carbide lamps (have a mage throw some lightning bolts into a trench
full of mixed coke and limestone. The result is calcium carbide). 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I had a GM try taking our D&D players, as themselves, to a fantasy
land on a quest. Some of us knew chemical formulas for things like
gunpowder, and we brought along backpacks full of books and
chemicals swiped from a local college laboratory. Some of us had
read the Cross-Time Engineer series, so we were ready to *rule*!

Our GM had done some reading as well. After we crossed over, I
looked at one of our books - and found the writing to be illegible (as
per _Doomfarers of Coramonde_ and _Starfollowers of Coramonde_).
It was like I had crippling dyslexia, though later I found I could read
the local "common tongue". Perhaps we could have had a mage or
cleric cast a read languages spell to decode the books, but that
didn't do us much good at the time.

Then we looked at the chemicals. Some of them had changed color,
or smell. A few had things moving in them, some kind of energy or
bizarre lifeform. Yeah, we had some basic knowledge of chemistry...
unfortunately for us, the reigning materials science of this world was
magically-oriented alchemy. We didn't stay there long enough to
figure out the rules of alchemy, it seemed that the rules of chemistry
worked for some things (brewing, baking, tanning, metalworking) but not
others (explosives, mainly). And when they didn't work, they usually
didn't work in a spectacular and unpredictable fashion.
(For "spectacular and unpredictable", read "embarrasing and dangerous")

We had a rifle, two shotguns and a couple of pistols, with a couple of
hundred rounds of ammo each. For some unknown reason, the bullets
that were already made worked - we just couldn't make more gunpowder.
Instead of being high-tech rulers of the planet, we were a bunch of
know-nothing zero-level wimps with some noisy ranged weapons.
By the time the GM took pity on us and sent us home (by having us
meet our own characters), we were more than ready to go.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:37:40 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: quips

Douglas E. Berry writes:
"Hudson, this little girl survived a lot longer than eight weeks!"

"Great, put her in charge"

and of course:

"I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be
sure."

	HE: "...have you ever been mistaken for a man?"
	SHE: "No, have you?"

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:43:16 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Boston area headcount

>I'm in Waltham real close to the Rt.2 and 128 intersection.  There are four
>or five others....(Pete, Jo?) with Pete running a game of his own.

My game is in hibernation (recharging the creativity batteries) but it's
not far below the surface.

We have 6 Traveller players on the hook, including Jo Grant and Kenji
Shwartz, of list (and published) fame.  Note we are, in fact,, playing
games twice a week (most of us); an AD&D game by Jo, and my Traveller
campaign which, while on hiatus, is replaced by a GURPS (Cyberpunkish - but
toned down) campaing run by another person.

All are either in Cambridge, Allston, Medford, or Malden.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 06:46:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Far Trader Trade Routes, try two.

- --- Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
 
> >In the GT: Far Trader bood, it mentions that you should 
> >follow the route of heaviest trade when presented with two 
> >choices. What about when that will cause the trade to 
> >drop down on the trade chart? At low levels, that probably 
> >would make little to no differnence but as you rise, that 
> >can make a significant monitary amount per year. I am guessing 
> >that it would matter on a BTN of 5 and above. At a 5, it 
> >seems that some enterprising soul would be willing to comit 
> >his free trader to the 100KCr - 500KCr traffic. 
> 
> That level of trade is only 10-50 dtons a year - the other thing to
> think
> of is the holding costs. Sure, you could wait until the bi-annual
> Boondocks-Back'O'Bourke Express comes around, or you could send it
> the long
> way on the monthly freighter from Boondocks to Big Smoke, and then
> from Big
> Smoke to Back'O'Bourke. This might be more expensive, but if it's
> fifteen
> months faster ...

So at what point you you put the break where it becomes worth it 
to have a dedicated tiny route?
  
> >Also, Far Trader mentions that if there is no trade route, 
> >but enough trade for a minor route to give it one. My question 
> >there is, can I use the same sort of combining of multiple 
> >trade routes of the same size into a larger one as is done 
> >with the main routes? The book has three minor routes becoming 
> >one feeder route. The way I have that figured, since the rule 
> >is not specific, is that if there are two BTN's of 8 and one 8.5, 
> >they become one 9.0. If it were two 8.5 and one 8.0, they would 
> >become one 9.5. Is that a valid interpritation? 
> 
> I'd say no. The two 8.5s would add to about GCr 1.5 - bottom of the
> 9.0
> level. You could add ten 8.0 routes (total GCr 2.5), and still be in
> about
> the middle of 9.0 territory with GCr 4.0.

So you say that it should always round up to the low end of 
the spectrum?
 
> The three-for-one is a bit of an approximation. It's a log scale, so
> three
> MCr250/8.0s should add to a MCr 750/8.5 (a "frequent minor" route)
> rather
> than to a MCr1000/9.0 "feeder" route.

While that might be so, that is not how the rules read. They talk 
about jumping up to the next highest route type, not the next highest 
BTN. I am working on a cannon trade map. I have to use the rules as 
closely as I can. If the rule needs to be errata'd, great. I can live
with that. If not, then I need to find out the way that our Traveller 
Economists think this needs to  be. As written, it is unclear and 
limiting my ability to work up a detailed map.
 
> >I would use 
> >the smaller trade routes in the same way, combining similar small 
> >routes into one of the next rough integer up. Three 4.0 would become
> >one 5.0. two 4.5 and one 4.0 would become a 5.5. Is that a valid 
> >rules interpretation? 
> 
> As a general case, I'd say no. Two x.5 routes should round up to x+1,
> but
> you need ten x.0s or five x.0s and a x.5 to turn into an x+1.

Then I would certainly be open to a valid method of combining them as
written into the rules. If the above is a valid mesthod, then the
combining of large routes needs to be changed to match. Otherwise, it 
becomes an excercise in futility.
 
> >I need to know these things so as to create a valid picture of 
> >all the trade in the sector. There is a lot of trade below the 
> >minor level and combined it would make an impact on the overall 
> >map.
> 
> Because of the log scale, I'm inclined to think it wouldnt have that
> much
> of an effect. You would need about a hundred 6.0 routes to turn into
> one 8.0.

Not acording to the examples above. 10 6.0's, 2 6.5's, 10 7.0, and 2 
7.5's. That might seem far fetched but as I am seeing right now just
how many lower level routes go from one place to another, it is not out
of 
the realm of posibility. And if our Economist folks do decide that the 
rule needs to remain as it is and incoperates the lower level routes as
well, that will have a large impact, as well.

You can see why it is very relevent to the question. On these small 
matters, the path and addition of small route (and large one's now 
that you mention them) swings the balance of trade in a subsector. 
 
> I'm very interested in what you come out with btw :)
 
I will be most happy to share the results once I am done.

Once I have the rules correct and work it out by hand, then I can 
try my hand with the database I have finished and see if I can create a

set of queries that will do it correctly. That is my end goal.

Terry
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:44:57 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Boston area headcount

>Mark Urbin wrote:
>
>> I'm actually just west of 495, 50 Km due West of Boston.
>>
>> The Space Vermin (our group) does have some members closer in:
>> Newton, Waltham, JP.
>
>I'm in Boston proper.  Have no idea where 495 is.
>Strictly a pedestrian these days.

People I know inside the greater Boston area refer to the area outside 495
as "Sleestac Territory" and the farthest out MBTA stop as "the last pylon".

If you understand these references, you watched too much TV (on Saturday)
in the 70s.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:47:09 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Boston area headcount

>> > Newton, Waltham, JP.
>>
>> I'm in Boston proper.  Have no idea where 495 is.
>> Strictly a pedestrian these days.
>>
>
>495 is an hour north on highway route 93 from Boston.

Damn, its never an hour!  It's a half hour at non-rush hour and 1 1/2 to 2
hours from 3:30 to 7pm weekdays.

Oh, and its three hours on fridays in the summer before a long weekend,
being the route to Vacationlands to the North.

Obtrav (at last) Jump Points never get congested, but starports do I bet.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:49:11 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: re: Car Rental

>
>A0 roll fed colour 600 dpi Ink jet at work....
>
>Maybe I should do some deckplans ;-/

Is that one of those really long ones?

Where I used to work there were some printers for the NMR machine Data.
Six feet across and as long as you want it.  I was drooling over those
things - It's a good thing they were never publickly accessable on the
network.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:56:01 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Missle acceleration

Rob Brady writes:
"In book 2 it was never mentioned, but what would the acceleration
of a missle be?"
<snipped>

	IMTU the standard homing missile takes off at 12G. I based
	this on the fact that missiles always hit even 6G ships, so
	I just doubled 6G. I don't keep track of exactly where the 
	missiles are, but I calculate the expected time to impact
	from the initial range and relative velocity. I also 
	heretically allow laser fire on missiles at any range, but
	with nasty DM's. Of course, there are slower missiles (6G,
	2D hits) and faster ones (18G, 1 hit).

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:55:54 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Megatraveller ship design

>Vincent Gioscia <vinsgt@vgernet.net> wrote to Freelance Traveller:
>
>>Is a progaram available for generation of starship using the
>>megatraveller rules?  I can't seem to find one.  Or is a coach or step by
>>step example available anywhere?
>
>Can anyone help this gentleman?

I have an Excel 5.0 spreadsheet that works relatively well.

For various copyright reasons I feel I must inform you that, to use it, you
really need the Megatraveller Referee's Manual.

The spreadsheet can be downloaded in its latest public form at;

http://web.mit.edu/pbrenton/www/mtsdpb10.zip

Someday I'll get around to uploading a newer version and will inform the
list when done.

There are several other MT spreadsheets out there, but I do not recall ever
seeing a standalone program.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 10:02:10 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: PCs playing themselves as characters

Leonard Erickson writes:
<snipped>
"In the D&D game, the GM learned the hard way that some 
of us had lots of obscure stuff memorized. For example, 
not only was I able to describe how to make gunpowder from 
*scratch*, I also knew how to make various acids, and 
several other things."
<snipped>

	This can be a problem in Traveller (even just running
	a regular game with people who know more than you do
	can be challenging), but it should never be a problem
	in AD&D. After all, magic doesn't work in the Real 
	World(tm), so why should chemistry work in the AD&D
	world?

	GM: "Yes, you have the correct formula. Yes, you
	mixed it correctly. No, it does not explode."

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 10:09:13 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Boston area headcount

> People I know inside the greater Boston area refer to the area outside 495
> as "Sleestac Territory" and the farthest out MBTA stop as "the last pylon".
> 
> If you understand these references, you watched too much TV (on Saturday)
> in the 70s.
> 
> Pete
> 
> 

So am I a sleestac if I'm in Manchester, NH?  :)
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 08:11:39 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: questions on Rogue CharGen

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> >I can see a Rogue masquerading as a pilot for a few months like this,
> >but for an entire four-year term? That seems a bit far-fetched to me.
> >
> >What if he masquerades as a member of the Imperial Navy? Think _anyone_
> >could fake that for a four-year term?
> 
> Ever hear of Stanley Clifford Weyman?  In the early 20th Century, he
> successfully impersonated state department officials, Naval officers from
> several different countries, An Army Air Corps officer, a doctor, a member
> of the Royal Court of Norway.. and those are the ones we know about!
> 

Hmmm. Okay, I must tell myself: It's only a game. I won't require enlistment
rolls for the masquerade roll.



- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:10:34 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: JimV's Calendar program...

Talisman posted:
>
>Where can I look at this software?

Jim Vassilakos' Galactic 2.4 software and Calendar
software is at:

http://www.rpghost.com/jimv/


Stuart Ferris' World Builder's Handbook Deluxe software
is at:

http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

Choose Stuart's "TAS Resource Centre" link.


NOTE: Both require a PC (i.e. won't run on a Mac). Also,
Stuart is in the process of making a major upgrade to
his software; you may want to wait a couple of weeks
before downloading his stuff.

For Mac-based software, check out Rob Prior's talented
work at the BITS site:

http://www.bits.org.uk/

Makes me wish I had a Mac. 'sigh'

BTW, everyone, there's one caveat with using Jim's Galactic
with Stuart's WBD software. Galactic is DOS based; WBD is
for Win95/98. WBD can write all its info to text files
readable by Galactic *but* WBD uses the _long_ naming
conventions allowed by Windows. Galactic can only read
standard DOS-named files (i.e. 8 characters. followed by a
period, followed by 3 characters).

That means all WBD-generated system data file names need
to be changed to fit DOS's limitations. Given that there
are an average of 9 bodies per system and there are about,
what, 500 systems just in the Spinward Marches, that's
*alot* of files to rename.

And neither Windows95/95 nor DOS provides a pattern-based
"Find & Replace" function/command. So we're talking at
least 12 hours of keyboard work..and I'm a *fast*
keyboarder (calling me a "typist" will a near-C rock lobbed
at you).

A gaming buddy of mine has offered to write a Perl routine
which should be able to perform this function. I'll let
you all know how it goes, if you're interested.

David Smart
Software Engineer
Lucent Technologies

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:15:42 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

SD Mooney  posted:
>
>"Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com> writes:
>>And don't forget "Aliens", the sequel to "Alien".  "Aliens", IMO, was
>>not only
>>hard-core sci-fi, it was hardcore _Traveller_.  From what I can remember
>>of
>>the Colonial Marines characters, the writer just had to have played
>>Traveller
>>at some point in his life.
>
>I'd disagree here. Aliens is hard-core 2300AD, not Traveller (with the
>possible exception of the Chamax).
>
>Alien:Resurrection is hard core Traveller (which is sad, considering that
>it is the weakest of the four). The PC's, sorry, mercenaries behave just
>like a typical Traveller group. Shame it was played for humour though. I
>prefered Alien^3 to Resurrection (I know some will disagree).

Well, I have to admit, you're absolutely right on all counts, Dom.

Of course, I was playing in a military Traveller campaign at the time
Aliens was showing so it hit very close to home for my group at
the time.

But, gamewise, you're absolutely right.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 10:26:48 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Boston area headcount

At 09:44 AM 5/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>Mark Urbin wrote:
>>
>>> I'm actually just west of 495, 50 Km due West of Boston.
>>>
>>> The Space Vermin (our group) does have some members closer in:
>>> Newton, Waltham, JP.
>>
>>I'm in Boston proper.  Have no idea where 495 is.
>>Strictly a pedestrian these days.
>
>People I know inside the greater Boston area refer to the area outside 495
>as "Sleestac Territory" and the farthest out MBTA stop as "the last pylon".
>
>If you understand these references, you watched too much TV (on Saturday)
>in the 70s.

 I kinda wish they would re-release some of those old shows, especially Ark-II.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #668
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 25 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 669



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

The CryoCampaign (Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #668
Traveller Adventures in ABQ, NM Area
Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero
Re: Gaming stores in Canada's Lake Ontario area.
Re: A plea for cinema restraint
Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters
Turnover of Imperial Companies
Re: BayCon and Denny's
Re: Corporate Structure
Re: Corporate Structure
Re: Boston area headcount 
Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
(no subject)
re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero
re: PC's Playing Themselves as Characters (OT)
Re: no one plays CT anymore 
Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships
Re: JimV's Calendar program...
Re: Gaming stores in Canada's Lake Ontario area.
T5 jump rules
Re: PC's Playing Themselves as Characters (OT)
Re: PC's Playing Themselves as Characters (OT)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:29:38 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: The CryoCampaign (Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters)

Glenn St Germain asked:

> ObTrav (sort of): the challenge in using the players themselves as PCs
> in a Traveller game is how to get the characters to jump forward in time
> nearly 3500 years to the time of the Imperium...  :)

Well, two methods immediately jump to mind:  temporal stasis (Ancient 
technology) and cryogenics (low berths.)  The discover of an Ancient 
device that no one else has found or will find for 3500 years is, 
IMHO, pretty lame.  That can be worked around by having some "greys" 
pick the PCs up one night and experiment on the device using them as 
guinea pigs.  But it's still weak, and hard to fit into canon.

Low berths are also a bit rough on canon, but otherwise they are the 
ideal option.  Traveller Digest 21 covers the use of such technology, 
and offers the social aspects of low berthing by "Timers," those 
individuals who, for whatever reasons, decide to invest some money 
and put themselves into cold sleep for a period of time.  Some are 
longterm "Timers" staying under for decades or centuries.  The oldest 
Timer Society started in the late 2200's (Terran dating) here in the 
Terran system, and continues until the Imperial present of 1120 
(Imperial dating) and beyond.  Some of the original members of 
this Timer Society were those who had been placed into cryogenic 
suspension for illnesses that could not be treated in the early 21st 
century.  (The article actually lists the early 2010's, but research 
was probably done before, and the PCs could have been "volunteered" 
for the process.)

According to the article, a person under Cold Sleep loses one point
from one physical characteristic per 25 years of suspension,
recoverable by 1d6 days of hospitalization per point lost after the
person is revived.  Death results is all physical characteristics
reach zero.  Thus, longterm cryogenics use can be dangerous, so the
PCs would have to wake up every so often.  As the average person has
physical characteristics of 777, then that means death occurs after 
(21*25=) 525 years suspension for Joe Genero.  My guess is that most 
Timer Clubs would bring people around every 400 years, just to insure 
their survivability.  This gives the GM an opportunity to run 
vignettes of different time periods for the PCs, showing them 
first-hand the transition of humanity and interstellar civilization 
over time.  This process would also give the players a greater sense 
of connection and continuity with the background of the 3I, and gives 
the GM the chance to explore some aspects of the OTU that he hasn't 
had the chance to examine.

Now, according to the article, the last of the original Cold Sleep
survivors that made up the first Timer Club died in -1999 (Imperial
dating).  To get around this point, when the PCs are revived at some
time before this date, they could be forced into a position where
they have to change their identity.  Perhaps, with all their wealth,
they simply pay the Timer Club officials a hefty bribe to change
their records, saying that they died on being put under, while they
actually live on under a pseudonym, avoiding debt collectors (the
interest on those would be killers) or media attention, whatever. 
Perhaps, a PC marries a fellow Timer and his/her name is changed
based on some local custom.  (A mate addicted to the Timer concept
would also give the PC and his friends an excuse to keep putting
themselves under.)  The records could have gotten lost or switched. 
The PCs are fleeing some enemy during a particular time line, and go
into Cold Sleep under false identities to outlast their foes.  The
possibilities can provide some very interesting adventure material
for a creative GM.

Time Periods that would naturally arise from a 400 year cycle would 
include:  the middle of the Interstellar Wars, the middle of the Rule 
of Man, Twilight of the Long Night (where the PCs wake up with much 
less money, due to the collapse of 2I), midnight of the Long Night, 
during the formation of the Old Earth Union (Long Night), during the 
early 3I days of recontacting the Solomani or during the heyday of 
the Solomani in the Imperial court, during the Crisis of '99 and the 
Psionic Suppressions, and Imperial present day (1100-1200, depending 
on the game you're running.)

Emergencies and equipment failure can be used to pull the PCs out of 
Cold Sleep prematurely if the GM has an adventure he wants to run in 
a particular time period.  The big thing for a time-spanning campaign 
like this would be to provide the PCs with a reason to keep putting 
themselves under.  Good PCs can probably find reasons once they get 
the gist of the campaign flow, so a GM's work may not be that 
difficult for them.  Depends, I guess.

(The quest for immortality might be a good reason, too.  Anagathics 
are TL15, and won't be available to the PCs until around 1000 
(Imperial dating).  So Timing might be the only way to make it until 
then.)

Roughly nine to ten stops at around two years apiece, means the 
characters will age about twenty years over the course of the 
campaign.  Should be pretty interesting.

I hope that this helps give some creative suggestions for a campaign 
designed around the concept of PCs playing themselves.  It also gives 
me a great idea for an NPC "Historian" that the PCs might meet up 
with someday.  :)

Thanks for your time.  I now return you to your normally scheduled 
thread, already in progress...

Happy Travellin',
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:46:10 -0600
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #668

Fellow TMLers:

I'm looking for Traveller players to participate in some 
sessions in the Albuquerque, NM area.

I know Merrick is out there, but he may be as busy as I am.

Anyways, we have lost two players in our group to the US Army
and need replacements at the table.  I run CT with a twist.
I'm not a gear head, nor is everything scientifically based.
Politics, fast talking and PC interaction are the norm.
Only occasional gun-fights have occurred.  I try to run
mystery investigations and have the PCs find out why
things are the way they are.  

Please contact me with your name and phone number.
I ring you up after the Memorial Day holiday.

Thanks.

Eric 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:49:22 -0600
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov>
Subject: Traveller Adventures in ABQ, NM Area

Fellow TMLers:

First, let me apologize for not sending the first attempted
message with the appropriate subject line.

I'm looking for Traveller players to participate in some 
sessions in the Albuquerque, NM area.

I know Merrick is out there, but he may be as busy as I am.

Anyways, we have lost two players in our group to the US Army
and need replacements at the table.  I run CT with a twist.
I'm not a gear head, nor is everything scientifically based.
Politics, fast talking and PC interaction are the norm.
Only occasional gun-fights have occurred.  I try to run
mystery investigations and have the PCs find out why
things are the way they are.  

Please contact me with your name and phone number.
I ring you up after the Memorial Day holiday.

Thanks.

Eric 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 07:12:46 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero

Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> writes:

>I've still got my program for generating MegaTraveller characters. Select
>the career, click the generate button, and out comes a fully-generated
>character, complete with physical description, psychological profile, and
>motivations. Options allow for limiting the terms served (to get a bunch of
>young grunts, say, instead of retired generals) and batch generation.
>
>All you need is a Mac and a postcard....

Which will be back up on my site this weekend (Rob I final finished
recoding the front page, just haven't had time to upload it).

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 12:55:53 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Gaming stores in Canada's Lake Ontario area.

Hey,

> Hey.  Next week I plan on circumnavigating Lake Ontario, with Canadian
> stops to include Ottawa, Toronto, and Niagara Falls.  Are there any
> particularly interesting FLGS in those cities or in the areas between them?
>  Especially stores that carry a lot of old and out of print material
> (Traveller or other RPGs)?

Ottawa? Lake Ontario? I gotta check out an atlas sometime...
anyway, in Ottawa there's Fandom (Fandom II?) which is basically downtown
somewhere, near the main downtown public library branch IIRC. Ottawa is
not a big city, so I think this is your best, if not your only bet.

In Toronto, the best suggestion I can make is the Sci-Fi Cafe at 1600 Steeles
West - which I seem to recall is best reached by going north on the Allan
past the 401, a bit further north, left on Steeles and then right into one 
of the strip malls - the cafe itself is behind a Tim Hortons - which, I may
add, should be your #1 destination at all times in Canada. You cannot get a 
decent donut in the US. I've tried. It's just not possible. (Some of you
may mock my interest in the pastry sciences...). There are lots of other 
comic stores in Toronto that have decent RPG selections, but none stick
out in my mind. There's a decent one on Yonge just north of Dundas on the
west side whose name I forget, but if you walk from Dundas to Bloor up Yonge
on the west side (which is semi-fun in and of itself) you should go by
at least a couple comic/game shops (and a lot of other shitty shops).
There's also the Silver Snail, which has a much smaller RPG selection and
almost no OOP stuff, but is located in the much hipper Queen West area
(Queen St west of Yonge to Spadina).

As for Niagara Falls, stick to the wax museum. There isn't much to be had
there as far as I can tell. Go to Niagara-On-The-Lake as well. It's
just as touristy, but a lot nicer than Niagara Falls.

If you want to be exhaustive, http://www.toronto.com has a pretty good 
listing of comic shops, which is where you should start looking.
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 17:52:22 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint

Shawn Campbell wrote:

>One of my favorite lines from Aliens went something like this:
>
>"I don't know if your up on current evens man, but we just got our asses
>kicked!"

`Let's ROCK!'
`Yeah'
[Long burst of smart gun fire]

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 18:21:24 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters

>Turning this around: has anyone reading this ever run (or been in) a
>scenario in which the Imperium-era PCs wound up travelling back in time
>to present-day Earth?

There was a White Dwarf Traveller Scenario set in Victorian England, can't
remember its name or issue though.

I can have a look at the weekend if you are interested?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 18:30:34 +0100
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Turnover of Imperial Companies

Anyone care to make a guesstimate of the MCr turnover of Imperial
corporations, large and small? For example, Jamison Factors, Oberlindes,
Tukera, Makhidkarun?

I'm just trying to get a handle on what are sensible values (order of
magnitude accuracy is fine).

TIA,

John
 
John G. Wood            <john@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Oxford, United Kingdom  http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:11:03 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: BayCon and Denny's

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 06:57 PM 5/23/99 EDT, you wrote:
> >Jesse is again temporarily off the net.  We're both still planning on making
> >BayCon...he may not make the Denny's gathering though.  Is there a set date
> >and time?  I'll have about 3-4 people with me I believe.  Some one let me
> >know.  Email me at TASCelt@aol.com
>
> The First Annual TML Vilani BBQ at Denny's will be Friday, May 28th, at
> around 1800.  This time is very flexible.  Anybody who is attending should
> contact me by Wednesday to let me know how many folks you'll be coming with.

Should be both Jim K.s and my self.
Gypsycomet, and an other old timer from the TML.

- --
Evyn...
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 14:20:51 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Corporate Structure

Phil Kitching wrote:

>>6. Works.  2000 employees or more. Only the largest industries
>>have this many employees at any one site. These are major
>>employers and there should be no more than one or two of these
>>per million population or so.

>This should be highly tech level dependent.
>Rare at low tech, at industrial age tech multi-thousand employee
>sites should be quite common and form a significant proportion
>of the workforce.  As tech increases, diversity of production
>and the improved ability for remote working reduces the size of
>a works.

A major works of any kind has to be supported by many different
enterprises to supply food, housing, transportation, medical,
cultural, educational, and other services to the employees and
their dependents, not to mention suppliers and customers for the
works itself. It is the ability to provide these services that
limits the size of a works.  If employees live in company housing
and have company plumbers, the company will employ a greater
proportion of the society than if they live in private housing
and pay independent contractors, but the number of plumbers
needed does not depend significantly on where their paycheck
comes from. Spaceports and shipyards come to mind as examples of
"works" that may well increase in size with TL.

>A balance to this are works (such as an office block) where many
>companies share the same building.

Many 2000+ employee companies, such as governments, school
districts, and corporate chains have several distinct "plant"
sized or smaller sites, and cannot be considered a single works.
I didn't consider sites such as malls or office blocks where
employees are in separate corporations with separate managements
as works because I was looking at the structure of one
corporation, not several in one place. The headquarters complex
of a sufficiently large organization would probably be a single
works.
  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 14:20:55 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Corporate Structure

Douglas Glatz wrote:

>>      Most corporations, whatever their line of business, have
>> the equivalent of an "enlisted" class.  These are the ordinary
>> laborers or wage-earners.

>Interesting, but I would break the rank structures up a bit
>more.  E1-E3 being unskilled/apprenticeship, E4-E6 being
>skilled/journeyman and E7-E9 being master/supervisory.

     I tried to follow the general pattern of rank advancement in
T4. I took descriptions of military structure and tried to give
the ranks approximately similar levels of responsibility. I also
went by RW experience with low-level employees in several
different industries.  In T4, advancement from E1 to E2 occurs
after two years, and then one E rank every four year term after
that. That sounds very roughly OK.  After about 2 years on the
job, someone should be familiar enough with it to be considered a
"regular", at least semiskilled.  Employees at E2 are often
assigned to help train or supervise new hires or temporaries.  It
might take a couple of terms to rise to a foreman (E4) rank, but
not too much longer than that. Only large organizations would
make much use of E6 or higher ranks.  Perhaps union officials in
US industry might be considered as high-ranking "enlisted"
employees.

>    Then the 'O' levels could be reserved for management, O1-O3
>being managers (day to day responsibility), O4-O6 being
>operations (focusing on quarter and yearly goals), O7-O9 being
>corporate officers (VP and up) focusing on the
>long term goals and directions of the company.

     The O-levels are intended to be principally management, but
must include educated professional employees. These have to be
treated more like lower-level management than unskilled labor,
and in some cases they do have wage-earning employees as
assistants. I could see merging the O2 and O3 ranks. This would
mean adjusting the responsibilities for the various officers (O3
where I have O4, etc.)  

For a megacorporation, rank titles with an appropriate time focus
might be:

O3 Assistant Manager     day-to-day
O4 Manager
O5 Senior manager        month-to-month
O6 Operations Director
O7 System manager        year-to-year
O8 Regional manager
O9 Vice president        decade-to-decade
O10 President or CEO

Smaller corporations often omit intermediate ranks and give high-
level titles to their highest level officers. The extreme case is
the O2 who is president and CEO of his corporation of two
employees. As another example, I would consider the CEO of
General Motors to be about an O7 or low O8 on the Imperial scale.

  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 16:25:46 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Boston area headcount 

> > People I know inside the greater Boston area refer to the area outside 495
> > as "Sleestac Territory" and the farthest out MBTA stop as "the last pylon".
> > 
> > If you understand these references, you watched too much TV (on Saturday)
> > in the 70s.

Of *COURSE* I watched 'Land of the Lost'.  It was usually on the tube when I came in from my Friday nite partying sessions at my local pub, 'Gandalf's'.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 16:46:34 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

The biggest difference between Traveller and Movie/TV stories is that 
Traveller characters are actually interested in making a living, earning 
money and actually get to but stuff they can use later with that money.   
Money is just a "maguffin" in movies and rarely ever comes up in Sci-Fi 
movies.    I mean, even though Han Solo got his reward money at one point, he 
didn't actually get to pay off Jabba or buy anything for use in the later 
movies.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 18:20:07 EDT
From: HighWander@aol.com
Subject: (no subject)

list

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 18:33:43 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero

At 06:51 PM 5/24/99 +0100, you wrote:
>AveNelso@aol.com writes:
>>	How do you folks handle "spear carriers",  i.e., nameless
brigands,
>>enemy soldiers,  pir---err scratch that one, hireling soldiers in
mercenary
>>campaigns.

	TNE's Generic NPCs.  I started typing them all into the standard
index card format I use, but didn't get very far.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 18:25:20 -0500
From: meow@advancenet.net
Subject: re: PC's Playing Themselves as Characters (OT)

we had a DM decide to toss us into a similar medieval situation, in 
a D&D world, only problem being among the 7 players, aside from
the 2 kitchen chemists, we had 4 members of the SCA, all of 
whom had training in assorted weapons styles, among other handy
things.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 20:18:01 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: no one plays CT anymore 

>IIRC, Pebble was *also* a hollow rock.  Mebbe not the best choice for a
boat that has to land...

I have the ROCK and Pebble plans available on my site.  See:
http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Rock.html
http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/CC2.html

Paul Schirf
Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 01:47:31 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Asteroid-hulled non-starships

- -----Original Message-----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>


<snip>


>Of course, the Sansterrean Defense Fleet would be happy to complete
>the campaign with no shots fired in anger.
>
>Walt Smith
>


I never fire in anger.... only with cool deliberation :)

regards

Matt

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
visit my web site =>      www.akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:04:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: JimV's Calendar program...

In mail you write:

> BTW, everyone, there's one caveat with using Jim's Galactic
> with Stuart's WBD software. Galactic is DOS based; WBD is
> for Win95/98. WBD can write all its info to text files
> readable by Galactic *but* WBD uses the _long_ naming
> conventions allowed by Windows. Galactic can only read
> standard DOS-named files (i.e. 8 characters. followed by a
> period, followed by 3 characters).
>
> That means all WBD-generated system data file names need
> to be changed to fit DOS's limitations. Given that there
> are an average of 9 bodies per system and there are about,
> what, 500 systems just in the Spinward Marches, that's
> *alot* of files to rename.

> And neither Windows95/95 nor DOS provides a pattern-based
> "Find & Replace" function/command. So we're talking at
> least 12 hours of keyboard work..and I'm a *fast*
> keyboarder (calling me a "typist" will a near-C rock lobbed
> at you).

Well, last time I looked Win95/98 actually created 8.3 filenames, and
stored the long file names as "hidden" directory entries. So I take it
that the 8.3 names aren't suitable for some reason?

As for pattern based search and replace:

dir /b > file
editor file
ren file file.bat

Just use an editor with the desired pattern recognition capabilities. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 22:46:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Gaming stores in Canada's Lake Ontario area.

>Ottawa? Lake Ontario? I gotta check out an atlas sometime...
>anyway, in Ottawa there's Fandom (Fandom II?) which is basically downtown
>somewhere, near the main downtown public library branch IIRC. Ottawa is
>not a big city, so I think this is your best, if not your only bet.

South side of Laurier, just west of the canal.


>In Toronto, the best suggestion I can make is the Sci-Fi Cafe at 1600 Steeles
>West - which I seem to recall is best reached by going north on the Allan
>past the 401, a bit further north, left on Steeles and then right into one
>of the strip malls

That's it, but I no longer go there. One of the owners (the bigger David)
was very rude the last few times I was there, selection was poor, prices
were more expensive that Hairy Tarantula or Fandom, and they sold the items
they promised to hold for me (and telling me "next week" for months).


>There are lots of other
>comic stores in Toronto that have decent RPG selections, but none stick
>out in my mind. There's a decent one on Yonge just north of Dundas on the
>west side whose name I forget, but if you walk from Dundas to Bloor up Yonge
>on the west side (which is semi-fun in and of itself) you should go by
>at least a couple comic/game shops (and a lot of other shitty shops).

The shop is Hairy Tarantula. It's just above the Money Mart, two blocks
(and a bit) north of Dundas on the west side of Yonge.  Pet the cats, and
chat politics with Leon.  He and Julie are good folks.


>There's also the Silver Snail, which has a much smaller RPG selection and
>almost no OOP stuff, but is located in the much hipper Queen West area
>(Queen St west of Yonge to Spadina).

The Snail is also pretty expensive.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 21:17:10 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: T5 jump rules

I was just looking at the T5 draft rules governing jumpspace and, as
usual, I have many questions.

1. The Jump Effects table says that there is a DM of "+1 for every 10
uses of unrefined fuel since the drives last annual maintenance". This
appears to be the only mention of annual maintenance in the draft jump
rules.

This appears to mean that if I, as starship owner, never get an annual
maintenance for my ship but I always use refined fuel, I will not suffer
any penalties. By inference, ships with purification plants don'trequire
annual maintenance. At least, not as far as misjumps go, anyway.

Am I missing something?

2. Under the Jump Mishaps Effects table, what does the Lateral result
mean?

3. Under the same table, what does the Misalignment result mean?
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:14:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: PC's Playing Themselves as Characters (OT)

In mail you write:

> Then we looked at the chemicals. Some of them had changed color,
> or smell. A few had things moving in them, some kind of energy or
> bizarre lifeform. Yeah, we had some basic knowledge of chemistry...
> unfortunately for us, the reigning materials science of this world was
> magically-oriented alchemy. We didn't stay there long enough to
> figure out the rules of alchemy, it seemed that the rules of chemistry
> worked for some things (brewing, baking, tanning, metalworking) but not
> others (explosives, mainly). And when they didn't work, they usually
> didn't work in a spectacular and unpredictable fashion.
> (For "spectacular and unpredictable", read "embarrasing and dangerous")

Yeah, our GM had gunpowder have a "critical mass". So firearms didn't
work. But grenades, mortars, and the like did. BTW, in the campaign
where we *weren't* playing ourselves, we once found a cache of weapons
from Earth. One guy died by properly role-playing an attempt to figure
out a mortar. Since we were familar with traps that fired crossbow
bolts, and were loaded by pushing the bolt into a tube against a spring
until the spring latched against the trigger mechanism, he figured the
big tube and the finned projectiles worked the same way. He inserted
the tail end of a mortar round into the tube, and then *pushed* it
down. With predictable results. 

> We had a rifle, two shotguns and a couple of pistols, with a couple of
> hundred rounds of ammo each. For some unknown reason, the bullets
> that were already made worked - we just couldn't make more gunpowder.

Easy. Modern weapons don't *use* black powder, which is what you guys
were trying to make. Modern smokeless powder is a lot more complex.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:23:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: PC's Playing Themselves as Characters (OT)

In mail you write:

> we had a DM decide to toss us into a similar medieval situation, in 
> a D&D world, only problem being among the 7 players, aside from
> the 2 kitchen chemists, we had 4 members of the SCA, all of 
> whom had training in assorted weapons styles, among other handy
> things.

I think *all* of us were SCA members. Heck, the games we played at
home, we sometimes took new players outside to the practice pell to
show them that a sword is a lot harder to swing than most folks think. 

We also had an "archway" between the living room and dining room that
was 10 feet wide (same as a "standard" corridor in most people's games)
We'd line them up in the archway and ask them to *try* swinging
(practice) weapons. They quickly agreed that 3 people across in that
much space was about the most that could manage to fight...

Yes, we actually *did* have people who thought that 5 people could
fight in that much space. Sheesh!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #669
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 26 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 670



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The CryoCampaign (Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters)
Re: Darrian Artists
Re: The First Annual TML Vilani BBQ
ShoreCon '99
Re: GT: Far Trader Trade Routes, try two.
On Topic: Morrow Project 
Re: Boston area headcount
Re: The First Annual TML Vilani BBQ
re: PC's Playing Themselves as characters (OT)
re: PC's playing themselves as characters (OT)
Re: The CryoCampaign 
Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Book 8 query
Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
Re: PC's Playing Themselves as Characters
Re: turnover of Imperial companies
Re: Fun things to do with a field phone
Re: Corporate Structure
Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
Re: Fun things to do with a field phone
RE: The CryoCampaign
Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters
Rob Prior...
Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:28:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The CryoCampaign (Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters)

In mail you write:

> Glenn St Germain asked:
>
>> ObTrav (sort of): the challenge in using the players themselves as PCs
>> in a Traveller game is how to get the characters to jump forward in time
>> nearly 3500 years to the time of the Imperium...  :)
>
> Well, two methods immediately jump to mind:  temporal stasis (Ancient 
> technology) and cryogenics (low berths.)  The discover of an Ancient 
> device that no one else has found or will find for 3500 years is, 
> IMHO, pretty lame.  That can be worked around by having some "greys" 
> pick the PCs up one night and experiment on the device using them as 
> guinea pigs.  But it's still weak, and hard to fit into canon.

Actually, there's another way. Cryonics. That is, being frozen at the
point of death or shortly thereafter in hopes that you can be revived
in the future and that your condition can be cured then. This has been
going on for at least 20 years.

It avoids a lot of the problems of low berths, though it adds some of
its own. 

Pluses				Minuses
- ---------------------------	-----------------------------
no loss of points over time	you're dead at the start
available now			could be a long time before they can
				revive you, much less cure you

I'd guess that *some* cryonicly preserved people will be revivable by
the time low berths are invented. But it could take some time *after*
low berths are invented to be able to repair the damage from freezing. 

For some somewhat more extensive info on the subject, grab a copy of
"The First Immortal" by Halperin. 

Once low berths are avialable, cryonic suspension will no longer be
done. But there will be a lot of cryonicly preserved people
(corpsicles, to use Niven's term) awaiting revival for some time. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 23:40:19 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: Darrian Artists

The only thing I don't like about the group is their "Artist" name.  How
about an original untranslated Darrian name that was originally
mistranslated to "Artist" by Solomani explorers circa -1511?  By the Maghiz
in -925, some 586 years later the new name could have become the accepted
label used by non-members.  Zar-tis? Ya-ri-zdet?

Paul Schirf
Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:46:43 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: The First Annual TML Vilani BBQ

Dear Doug -

On behalf of the rest of the TML, please pass on our regards to all who
attend.

Have fun! I'm sure we'll all be there in spirit.

(Maybe the rest of us should hold the The First Annual TML Vilani _Virtual_
BBQ).

;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 23:53:22 -0400
From: Tal Meta <talmeta@cybercomm.net>
Subject: ShoreCon '99

Greetings...

I'm the RPG coordinator for ShoreCon '99, which will be held on
September 9-12 1999 at the Hilton in Cherry Hill, NJ. In that capacity,
I'm making a final plea for GMs to run Traveller events (Classic,
MegaTrav, New Era, GURPS, you name it!) at the convention. The best way
to get people interested in the game is for them to -play- the game, and
a convention is one of the easiest and most visible ways of
accomplishing that!

The deadline for event submissions is June 1st, and by visiting our
website at <http://gameconventions.com/ShoreCon> you can find complete
information on hotel accomodations, online GM registration (now
guaranteed to work!), and even get on the mailing list to have our
pre-registration book sent directly to you. If you are interested in
GMing an event, the time to sign up is now!

This year ShoreCon will will be having several special guests, including
Peter Adkison (President and CEO of WotC/TSR), Steve Jackson (President
of Steve Jackson Games) and Jolly Blackburn (creator of Knights of the
Dinner Table)!

We'll also be boasting Target Games' 1st Annual Games Expo, several
LARPs (Vampire, Star Wars, and Toon!), as well as a large selection of
RPGs, CCGs, Miniature events and Network Gaming!

Thanx for your time...

- -- 
talmeta@cybercomm.net - Heretic & Dilettante
ICQ - 12594453
AIM - talmeta (note change!)
Homepage - <http://members.xoom.com/talmeta>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:17:42 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Far Trader Trade Routes, try two.

Terry Mixon wrote:

> I never recieved any input on this question so I will
> make a second try at asking for assistance.
>
> In the GT: Far Trader bood, it mentions that you should
> follow the route of heaviest trade when presented with two
> choices. What about when that will cause the trade to
> drop down on the trade chart?

I don't follow you here.

> At low levels, that probably
> would make little to no differnence but as you rise, that
> can make a significant monitary amount per year. I am guessing
> that it would matter on a BTN of 5 and above. At a 5, it
> seems that some enterprising soul would be willing to comit
> his free trader to the 100KCr - 500KCr traffic.

Well, thats one free trader cargo hold per year!  Not much
profit there.


> Below that it
> seems too little to matter. Above this, it cerainly seems
> like they would not go a longer route if it lost half a
> million credits, or more, in trade, per year. Opinions?
>
> Also, Far Trader mentions that if there is no trade route,
> but enough trade for a minor route to give it one. My question
> there is, can I use the same sort of combining of multiple
> trade routes of the same size into a larger one as is done
> with the main routes?

Sure.

> The book has three minor routes becoming
> one feeder route. The way I have that figured, since the rule
> is not specific, is that if there are two BTN's of 8 and one 8.5,
> they become one 9.0. If it were two 8.5 and one 8.0, they would
> become one 9.5. Is that a valid interpritation?

> I would use
> the smaller trade routes in the same way, combining similar small
> routes into one of the next rough integer up. Three 4.0 would become
> one 5.0. two 4.5 and one 4.0 would become a 5.5. Is that a valid
> rules interpretation?

The rules also state that you should bump up trade routes
where it makes sense to do so, if the numbers don't exactly match.

Jim is the trade route wizard but I think your interpretations are
mostly fine.  Combing 2 8s and an 8.5 to make a 9 seems to
fit the numbers fine.  What doesn't is 1 8 and 2 8.5s making a
9.5.  Thats too generous, as the combined trade route would
be 2.5GCr Max / 1.75 GCr Avg.  But a lone 9.5 is 5GCr
Minimum!

What you need to remember with the BTN table is its log nature.
Each integer increase is an increase in scale size.  To keep things
manageable, I would just look at the Min and Max ranges of the
combined Crs/Year and see where that falls.  Three Minor
routes; (8.0-8.5) will range from 300MCr to 3GCr.  Close
enough to call it a 9.0.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:22:33 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: On Topic: Morrow Project 

"Brannon W. Boren" wrote:

> On Mon, 24 May 1999, Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
>
> > OT: Is there a living Morrow Project mailing list somewhere?
>
> ///CONFIRM CONFIRM CONFIRM///
>
> PROJECT COMMUNICATION SET TO CHANNEL:
> MP@nostromo.gate.net
> for the Morrow Project Mailing List
>
> Also available: MP Gearhead List. Inquire at above for specifics.
>
> ///SECURE COMMUNICATIONS LINK///
> ///END END END///
>

This reminds me.  I made an effort a few months ago,
to transplant a Morrow Project type setting into
the OTU.  I wanted to try running a PBeM.

I tried to link it to the Solomani Phoenix Project.
I even tried looking for a suitable ROM setting, which
would lead to the Long Knight.

Ultimately, I concluded that no matter how I spun it,
it would only be a superficial non-Virus version of TNE.
And TNE did that kind of setting fine.

So much for trying to be original.  ;-)

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 17:35:41 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Boston area headcount

"Peter H. Brenton" wrote:

> People I know inside the greater Boston area refer to the area outside 495
> as "Sleestac Territory" and the farthest out MBTA stop as "the last pylon".
>
> If you understand these references, you watched too much TV (on Saturday)
> in the 70s.
>
> Pete

LOL!  Guilty.

Guess I'm at the first pylon: where Boston turns to Brighton/Alston

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 00:13:56 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: The First Annual TML Vilani BBQ

At 01:46 PM 5/26/99 +1000, you wrote:
>Dear Doug -
>
>On behalf of the rest of the TML, please pass on our regards to all who
>attend.
>
>Have fun! I'm sure we'll all be there in spirit.
>
>(Maybe the rest of us should hold the The First Annual TML Vilani _Virtual_
>BBQ).

I dunno about the 'virtual' part.  What the Denny's around here serve, it
could be ol' Uncle Eneri.  

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 00:13:44 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: PC's Playing Themselves as characters (OT)

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
We also had an "archway" between the living room and dining room that
was 10 feet wide (same as a "standard" corridor in most people's games)
We'd line them up in the archway and ask them to *try* swinging
(practice) weapons. They quickly agreed that 3 people across in that
much space was about the most that could manage to fight...

Yes, we actually *did* have people who thought that 5 people could
fight in that much space. Sheesh!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
With spears and a 3 man 1st rank/2 man 2nd rank, perhaps. Might be
a useful trick, kind of a mini-phalanx effect, but if one of you screwed up
or got downed you might all be in a tangle. Intersections would also
be a royal pain.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 00:20:22 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: PC's playing themselves as characters (OT)

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
> We had a rifle, two shotguns and a couple of pistols, with a couple of
> hundred rounds of ammo each. For some unknown reason, the bullets
> that were already made worked - we just couldn't make more gunpowder.

Easy. Modern weapons don't *use* black powder, which is what you guys
were trying to make. Modern smokeless powder is a lot more complex.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ah-hah. The smokeless powder was too complicated for the alchemy
spirits to understand, so they left it alone.

I think it had more to do with the bullets being "complete" - to us, at
least, or perhaps to the bullets themselves. Same thing with the guns,
our wriistwatches, etc. The chemicals *knew* they were ingredients for 
other things, so didn't have enough identity to remain unchanged. There
were other inanimate objects that had some kind of self-awareness - 
I think the GM's view of alchemy was based on this concept.

That's just a guess, I hadn't talked out the logic with the GM. It may
be he just liked the idea of our (limited) ammo supply working, but 
didn't want us making big barrels of explosives or revolutionizing the
local economy.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 22:40:26 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: The CryoCampaign 

At 11:30 PM 5/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
>According to the article, a person under Cold Sleep loses one point
>from one physical characteristic per 25 years of suspension,
>recoverable by 1d6 days of hospitalization per point lost after the
>person is revived.  Death results is all physical characteristics
>reach zero.  Thus, longterm cryogenics use can be dangerous, so the
>PCs would have to wake up every so often.  As the average person has
>physical characteristics of 777, then that means death occurs after 
>(21*25=) 525 years suspension for Joe Genero.

The only problem with this is the 300,000 sleepers on the ESA Long Range
Colony Mission, who survived up to 2,463 years in low berths, with only one
interruption (Adv 5: Trillion Credit Squadron, p. 40).

The background of the Islands Clusters Campaign makes a good "cicada"
campaign, although not quite close enough for the players to play
themselves. You start before 2050 (post-Cyberpunk), prepping for the
journey. You go to sleep, wake up somewhere along the way for 5 years --
somewhere interesting, no doubt -- go back to sleep, and wake up in the
Islands Clusters. Once there, you start a colony on an untouched world
(World Tamers).

If you really wanted, you could postulate that some sleepers with "special
talents" were kept on ice, and revive them in the 5640's to deal with the
threat of invasion from outside -- from the Imperium.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 00:52:06 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@truserve.com>
Subject: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

I'm on a deadline for SJG, so any ideas people have on this would be
appreciated.

What does a K'Kree acceleration couch (chair) look like? You know, the seats
they sit in on the bridge of a ship...

Any opinions on what would be best?

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@truserve.com - http://www.truserve.com/~igor/           |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:53:37 +1000
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Book 8 query

Is there meant to be a Volume rating for installed devices/sensors/weapons
in Book 8? The tables seem to only factor in weight, power and cost, perhaps
assuming any devices added are external to the chassis. However, under
manipulator's, I think it says that they can hold twice their weight in
installed devices etc. 

So, should a rule of thumb be Volume = Twice Weight?

Michael Hughes

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 23:20:34 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

Would a K'kree sit in a chair?

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

From: Andrew Akins <igor@truserve.com>

> I'm on a deadline for SJG, so any ideas people have on this would be
> appreciated.
>
> What does a K'Kree acceleration couch (chair) look like? You know, the
seats
> they sit in on the bridge of a ship...
>
> Any opinions on what would be best?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 02:47:13 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Re: PC's Playing Themselves as Characters

I once ran a scenario in which my players played themselves, a bunch of
geeky high school students -- unexpectedly zapped and rendered into bits by
a rather unlikely matter-digitizing machine in the school's computer lab.
They found themselves wandering a labyrinthine cyberspace, being forced to
take part in deadly arena games (surprisingly similar to "Defender" and
"Asteroids"), and trying to avoid being "de-rezzed" by Discriminators...

I was taking advantage of being the first in the group to see the movie
"Tron" -- the players hadn't caught it yet. Didn't take them long to catch
on, though.

Best,

 + GMG +

          Glenn Grant
         neo@total.net
    "Hell is Other Robots."
- - Robot Hell Brochure, Futurama

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 19:51:22 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: turnover of Imperial companies

>From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Turnover of Imperial Companies
>
>Anyone care to make a guesstimate of the MCr turnover of Imperial
>corporations, large and small? For example, Jamison Factors, Oberlindes,
>Tukera, Makhidkarun?
>
>I'm just trying to get a handle on what are sensible values (order of
>magnitude accuracy is fine).

OK ... each major corp in an area gets 1% of Gross Product for that area.

For megacorps, thier area is the Imperium. Makhadurin and Tukera thus have
1% of Gross Imperial Product, which is very, very, very gross. Trillions.
Many trillions. More than I wanna count.

On the other hand, Oberlindes only gets 1% of the Spinward Marches. Call it
6 TL15 planets 10 billion pop, thats ummm one percent of 15 000 per capita,
times 10 bill, times six, which is 1% of 90 trillion, or call it a rough
trillion credits. Thats turnover, of course. Profit is proably a small
chunk of this.

Jamison Factors run a tramp trader, dont they ? Maybe five mill turnover,
absolute tops.

Kinda puts things in perspective, doesnt it ...

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 01:45:56 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Fun things to do with a field phone

> From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
 
> ObTrav : One would imagine in an era of "wonder-drugs" and other neato
> stuff, the idea of gaining info from someone by force may have fallen by
> the wayside ?

"Look here, Dawson, there's no need to get rough with the prisoner. 
Just give him a shot of truth juice and hook him up to the monitor and
we'll get everything we need in a jiffy."

"Yes, but where's the job satisfaction in that?"

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 10:31:40 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Corporate Structure

At 14:20 25/05/1999 -0400, Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com> wrote:
>Phil Kitching wrote:
>
>>>6. Works.  2000 employees or more. Only the largest industries
>>>have this many employees at any one site. These are major
>>>employers and there should be no more than one or two of these
>>>per million population or so.
>
>>This should be highly tech level dependent.
>>Rare at low tech, at industrial age tech multi-thousand employee
>>sites should be quite common and form a significant proportion
>>of the workforce.  As tech increases, diversity of production
>>and the improved ability for remote working reduces the size of
>>a works.
>
>A major works of any kind has to be supported by many different
>enterprises to supply food, housing, transportation, medical,
>cultural, educational, and other services to the employees and
>their dependents, not to mention suppliers and customers for the
>works itself. It is the ability to provide these services that
>limits the size of a works.  If employees live in company housing
>and have company plumbers, the company will employ a greater
>proportion of the society than if they live in private housing
>and pay independent contractors, but the number of plumbers
>needed does not depend significantly on where their paycheck
>comes from. Spaceports and shipyards come to mind as examples of
>"works" that may well increase in size with TL.

Agreed.

What I meant was that at current TL, the town where I work only
has *one* "Works" for about 170,000 people. Improved automation
means that very few workplaces would qualify as bigger than a
"Site" (more machines but fewer people).

Go back two TL and a population of 100,000 might have perhaps
half a dozen "Works".

I think you need something larger than "Works", eg "Major Works"
which employs more than 10,000 people in one place. This is the
size that is at the one per million people rate at current TL.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 03:12:02
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

At 12:52 AM 5/26/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I'm on a deadline for SJG, so any ideas people have on this would be
>appreciated.
>
>What does a K'Kree acceleration couch (chair) look like? You know, the seats
>they sit in on the bridge of a ship...
>
>Any opinions on what would be best?

considering what we've seen of their resting position, a cradle-type affair
taht allows them to get off their feet.  Put a butt stop at the rear to
stop them from sliding off.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:04:18 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

>What does a K'Kree acceleration couch (chair) look like? You know, the
seats
>they sit in on the bridge of a ship...
>
>Any opinions on what would be best?

Have you ever seen a bull-milking cradle ?

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 06:43:15 -0500
From: SFC Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Fun things to do with a field phone

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
> > From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
> 
> > ObTrav : One would imagine in an era of "wonder-drugs" and other neato
> > stuff, the idea of gaining info from someone by force may have fallen by
> > the wayside ?
> 
> "Look here, Dawson, there's no need to get rough with the prisoner.
> Just give him a shot of truth juice and hook him up to the monitor and
> we'll get everything we need in a jiffy."
> 
> "Yes, but where's the job satisfaction in that?"
> 
I figure that Imperial military interrogators have an attitude similar
to that of US Army interrogators these days:  Only amateurs torture
prisoners...for information.

Ars Gratia Artis.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 08:31:23 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: The CryoCampaign

Jason Kemp writes:
<snipped>
"This gives the GM an opportunity to run vignettes of different 
time periods for the PCs, showing them first-hand the transition 
of humanity and interstellar civilization over time."
<snipped>

	I like this idea a lot. Unfortunately, as always, I am 
	unlikely to find the time to develop it much. I did run a
	short campaign involving shifts between time-lines, but as
	you suggested the problem was getting the party to keep 
	shifting. One possibility that I never explored is that the
	temporal shift is inflicted on the players by a secret 
	society that is in a running battle with them across the
	centuries (eg. it is a weapon). I know, it's a stretch.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 08:42:12 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters

John Buston writes:
"There was a White Dwarf Traveller Scenario set in Victorian 
England, can't remember its name or issue though."
<snipped>

	Dr. Who anyone?

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 08:47:35 EDT
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Rob Prior...

Rob Prior:

If you're out there, please contact Fred Kiesche at:

Diespamer@aol.com

.regarding an important matter!!!!!

(Sorry for the waste of bandwidth for the rest of you fine folks...)

Fred Kiesche
(Diespamer@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:57:36 +0100
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

Would they have any need ? they went from nothing to Gravatics, missed out
chemical rockets, no need for acceleration couches ... just backup systems.

Would you have a bridge on a K'Kree ship ? the less enclosures the better, you
might have a bridge area in the main enclosure, but you would have to have
room for all the ontorage to come with the pilot.

K'Kree are hearding wide open spaces sophants, if it dosn't look like a nice
parsture with nice skies they arn't going to stay there for time it takes to jump.

Just my opinion.

Ewan


From: Andrew Akins <igor@truserve.com>
>
>I'm on a deadline for SJG, so any ideas people have on this would be
>appreciated.
>
>What does a K'Kree acceleration couch (chair) look like? You know, the
>seats they sit in on the bridge of a ship...
>
>Any opinions on what would be best?

- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typos, and poetic license

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #670
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 26 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 671



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
Re: Darrian Artists
re: PC's Playing Themselves as Characters (ON-topic)
Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit
Re: No Shit, There I Was
Re: The CryoCampaign
Re: The CryoCampaign
Re: Toys in the Imperium
CC2 Deckplans (Re: no one plays CT anymore)
Re: GT: Far Trader Trade Routes, try two.
[ADMIN] Just a test
RE: Missle acceleration
Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
Re: The CryoCampaign
Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:54:01 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

Douglas E. Berry posted:
>
>At 12:52 AM 5/26/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>I'm on a deadline for SJG, so any ideas people have on this would be
>>appreciated.
>>
>>What does a K'Kree acceleration couch (chair) look like? You know, the
seats
>>they sit in on the bridge of a ship...
>>
>>Any opinions on what would be best?
>
>considering what we've seen of their resting position, a cradle-type
affair
>taht allows them to get off their feet.  Put a butt stop at the rear to
>stop them from sliding off.

This is about what I figured. However, keep in mind the main direction
of
the acceleration and provide support for soft body areas (i.e. the
abdomen)
with that in mind. The back of a human acceleration chair isn't really
providing support for the "back"; it's providing support for the skull,
spine,
the back of the ribs and pelvis, and the kidneys. These then provide
support
for the rest of the internal organs. Fortunately, there's nothing hard
and
dense in front of the kidneys.

With K'kree, if the push of acceleration is from the floor and they're
lying
belly-down on a cradle, this would be the equivalent, in terms of
acceleration affects, of a human lying perpendicular to a jet's
acceleration
while facing backwards. The soft abdominal organs will be between the
force of acceleration and the spine.

As for what effects this may have on these organs, I'm clueless but
having
one's abdomen crushed between a couch surface and one's spine can't be
comfortable. Any medical/physics specialists out there what to expand on
this?

It seems to me, though, that the skull must be supported (the
K'kree have *big* heads) and in such a way as to allow speech, sight,
and hearing. Because of a K'kree's muzzle/snout (compared with a human's
relatively flat face), would turning the head may be more difficult or
dangerous than a human performing the same movement? 'shrug' Just
something
to think about. Also, make sure the couch/whatever helps keep the blood
in the brain or provide the K'kree with their equivalent of G-suits.

BTW, the placement of controls must also be such that they can be easily
monitored/manipulated without requiring a great deal of movement of the
head or limbs. I admit I'm assuming the worst accel to be 6Gs. One way
of making the controls rather unique is to take advantage of
the K'kree "hoof" design by placing control surfaces in an arc/circle
around a central cup/well that the hoof's central bone is placed in
during high G maneuvers. This well would allow the hoof to remain in
place with a minimum of effort while allowing the hoof's manipulative
digits\tendrils\whatever to interact with the control surfaces.
Have multiple cups/wells for different control arcs/circles and make
the control surfaces themselves slightly recessed. This would allow
a hoof to slide along the control _panel_ surface from well to well
without accidently interacting with the control surfaces themselves.

Have the control panel surface angled in such a way that it slows down
limb movement as the limb is pulled away from the direction of
acceleration and it helps limb movement as the limb is moved in the
direction of acceleration. Basically, angle the control surfaces so
they help offset the acceleration affects. There's nothing wrong with
having the control panels automatically change this angle as the
force of acceleration changes; mount them on hi-TL equivalents of
gimbals.

All of the above ideas are from my non-scientist/physicist brain. They
really need a sanity check from those TMLrs who are more knowledgeable
than me.

Sorry about the length, folks, but Andy and Doug B. pushed an analysis
button I didn't know I had. It's their fault, it's *all* _their_ fault!

;-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 08:03:59 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: Darrian Artists

> From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
> 
> The only thing I don't like about the group is their "Artist" name.  How
> about an original untranslated Darrian name that was originally
> mistranslated to "Artist" by Solomani explorers circa -1511?  By the Maghiz
> in -925, some 586 years later the new name could have become the accepted
> label used by non-members.  Zar-tis? Ya-ri-zdet?

That was my only problem with it, too, after reviewing my info.  
Unfortunately, I no longer have a copy of the Darrians Alien Module, 
and was not able to generate appropriate names before posting the 
info to the list.  I like your explanation, and the choice of 
Zar-tis, as it flows off my tongue better than Ya-ri-zdet.  I will 
perform a rewrite shortly, and will incorporate your suggestions.  
Thanks, Paul.

In Appreciation,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:04:22 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: PC's Playing Themselves as Characters (ON-topic)

Ian Ferguson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
John Buston writes:
"There was a White Dwarf Traveller Scenario set in Victorian 
England, can't remember its name or issue though."
<snipped>

	Dr. Who anyone?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I recall the article - "The Whitechapel Werewolf", or something like that.
A Vargr combat-drug addict breaks into a top-secret research installation 
and travels back in time to Victorian England. The heroes, professional
troubleshooters, are equipped with equipment that looks period but
isn't, and are sent back to deal with him.

**minor spoiler ahead**
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
0


Since the Vargr is a little out of his head, and a devotee of a rather
bloody death-cult, and very sneaky, he gets to start both a werewolf
rumor and the legend of Jack the Ripper. They included a very nice
timeline for the adventure, linking the activities of the mad Vargr to
the reported odd happenings of the time. The also included a
newspaper article or two, with reports of an invulnerable were-beast
(a Vargr in cloth armor, hyped up on combat drugs). It looked like
an interesting change of pace for a Traveller group, but I'd be very leery
of adding a gov't time travel project to MTU.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 00:02:41 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit

>From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: GT: Far Trader Trade Routes, try two.
>
>So at what point you you put the break where it becomes worth it 
>to have a dedicated tiny route?

Thats a GM decision. The breakpoint is 8 to determine if those chunky DMs
for being on a route apply to such things as passenger numbers, placing
bids and so on.

>> I'd say no. The two 8.5s would add to about GCr 1.5 - bottom of the
>> 9.0
>> level. You could add ten 8.0 routes (total GCr 2.5), and still be in
>> about
>> the middle of 9.0 territory with GCr 4.0.
>
>So you say that it should always round up to the low end of 
>the spectrum?

Round off to it, yeah.

> 
>> The three-for-one is a bit of an approximation. It's a log scale, so
>> three
>> MCr250/8.0s should add to a MCr 750/8.5 (a "frequent minor" route)
>> rather
>> than to a MCr1000/9.0 "feeder" route.
>
>While that might be so, that is not how the rules read. They talk 
>about jumping up to the next highest route type, not the next highest 
>BTN. 

It's the art-and-a-science thing, I think.

>I am working on a cannon trade map. I have to use the rules as 
>closely as I can. If the rule needs to be errata'd, great. I can live
>with that. If not, then I need to find out the way that our Traveller 
>Economists think this needs to  be. As written, it is unclear and 
>limiting my ability to work up a detailed map.

Yes. It isnt 100% clear because they are guidelines ... as Jim said, it's
both an art and a science. It could be errata'd ... but a better idea is
for someone to achieve Guru status by actually doing it for the Spinward
Marches *grin*. Me, I say 'Mixon et Frere' is a great name for a
not-quite-megacorp ...

>> Because of the log scale, I'm inclined to think it wouldnt have that
>> much
>> of an effect. You would need about a hundred 6.0 routes to turn into
>> one 8.0.
>
>Not acording to the examples above. 10 6.0's, 2 6.5's, 10 7.0, and 2 
>7.5's. That might seem far fetched but as I am seeing right now just
>how many lower level routes go from one place to another, it is not out
>of 
>the realm of posibility. And if our Economist folks do decide that the 
>rule needs to remain as it is and incoperates the lower level routes as
>well, that will have a large impact, as well.
>
>You can see why it is very relevent to the question. On these small 
>matters, the path and addition of small route (and large one's now 
>that you mention them) swings the balance of trade in a subsector. 

OK, this is the way I'd deal with this. You start from top-down, not from
bottom up. The 2 7.5s dont round to an eight, so the rest never occours -
unless you want to use the exemption on the top of p19 to give it one. You
have to have a route to make a bigger one, and if it's smaller than BTN 8,
it isnt a route ... I'd also rule that 'exemption' minor routes and
'combination' routes dont count for three-into-a-bigger route.

> 
>> I'm very interested in what you come out with btw :)
> 
>I will be most happy to share the results once I am done.
>
>Once I have the rules correct and work it out by hand, then I can 
>try my hand with the database I have finished and see if I can create a
>
>set of queries that will do it correctly. That is my end goal.

OK. This is how I'd do it. Go from top down.

Get a big map of the Marches, with starports, trade codes and WTNs on each
world, and x-boat routes inked in.

Every time you calculate a route, type it into a datbase.

Start with Mora, and link it to the Golden Worlds - Lunion, Strouden,
Glisten, Porozolo, Rhylanor and Trin.

Given you are connecting a 6.5 system to a bunch of 6.0s, we have Major
Routes for everything 29 parsecs or less, and Feeder Routes for the rest.

Next, connect the Golden Worlds to each other. Feel free to pencil in some
jump-4 Express Routes (eg Mora-Carey-Strouden-Lunion), and if it's 19
parsecs or less, it's a Major Route in any case. There should be a Feeder
Route between each, given that 2 6.0 worlds create a Feeder Route out to 59
parsecs.

OK, we now have the solid bones of trade in the Spinward Marches.

Next, the arteries. Jewell, Efate, Adabicci, Aki are at 5.5, so link them
to Mora, then to the Golden Worlds, then to each other.

Now, we should have all the long-haul Major Routes established, so it's
time to calculate the capilleries. Go subsector by subsector for 5.0 and
Amber Zone 5.5 worlds - a 5.0 will have a Feeder Route to Mora if it's 29
parsecs or less, and a Feeder Route to a Golden World if it's 19 parsecs or
less (Major if it's within 5 parsecs). Remember to adjust BTNs for Ag and
Ex or NAg ... there is the odd WTN 5 Ag world.

OK. Now we should have close to all the Major routes, most of the Feeder
routes established, and the economically important worlds of the Marches
burned into our collective skulls. People at work will ask you if you've
seen Karen, and you'll say 'Five Sisters. Five flat. Ag Ri. Minor route to
Glisten'.

See if any triple-Feeder routes upgrade to Major status, then see if any
triple minor routes upgrade to a Feeder.

Madness now lurks. Minor routes. By this time, you'll be looking at a map,
going *bang*, thats a Minor route.

Do it subsector by subsector. First the 4.5s, then the 4s. Most of the
routes to the Golden Worlds should get sucked into bigger existing routes
at this point. You might get 'lateral' routes - 2 4.5 worlds with a +1/2
Trade Code Mod can make a Minor Route if 9 parsecs apart.

Now the payoff. We now now how much trade there is in the Marches. Knowing
this, we can calculate exactly how much shipping there is, and how many
Free Traders.

Whoever figures that out gets guru-hood in my book.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 00:26:54 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: No Shit, There I Was

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: PC's Playing Themselves as characters (OT)
>
>With spears and a 3 man 1st rank/2 man 2nd rank, perhaps. Might be
>a useful trick, kind of a mini-phalanx effect, but if one of you screwed up
>or got downed you might all be in a tangle. Intersections would also
>be a royal pain.

*thinks* the Bridge at the One True Rowany Site was about ummm seven feet
wide. Most fighters I ever saw in contact in that space was about fifteen.
Cramped front rank of four using short weapons defensivly, lots of pikes
and halberds and such behind them. It's very very messy, but doable.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:34:54 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: The CryoCampaign

Leonard Erickson writes:
"Actually, there's another way. Cryonics. That is, being 
frozen at the point of death or shortly thereafter...<snipped>
It avoids a lot of the problems of low berths, though it adds 
some of its own. 

Pluses				Minuses
- - ---------------------------	-----------------------------
no loss of points over time	you're dead at the start
<snipped>

	Although your stats may be at 000, this does not (IMHO)
	mean that you cannot 'loose more points.' For example, 
	firing a FGMP-15 at a recently deceased person will
	tend to have a significant effect on the body. The
	"revivability" of a corpsicle will likely decline over 
	the centuries.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 08:34:40 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: The CryoCampaign

> From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
> 
> At 11:30 PM 5/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >According to the article, a person under Cold Sleep loses one point
> >from one physical characteristic per 25 years of suspension,
> >recoverable by 1d6 days of hospitalization per point lost after the
> >person is revived.  Death results is all physical characteristics
> >reach zero.  Thus, longterm cryogenics use can be dangerous, so the
> >PCs would have to wake up every so often.  As the average person has
> >physical characteristics of 777, then that means death occurs after 
> >(21*25=) 525 years suspension for Joe Genero.
> 
> The only problem with this is the 300,000 sleepers on the ESA Long Range
> Colony Mission, who survived up to 2,463 years in low berths, with only one
> interruption (Adv 5: Trillion Credit Squadron, p. 40).

From what I understand, 1000 of the 10,000 people onboard were 
revived every five years for five years of contact with the 
descendants of the original descendants.  This lot was rotated, which 
would give every one five years out of every fifty.  Doesn't work 
very well for keeping the first generation young enough to be viable 
once they arrived at the Island clusters.  (In fact, they'd be dead, 
as they would have aged 300 years in the time it took to finally make 
it to the destination.)  If I misremembered the numbers and it is 
somewhat less, then at only 100 awake at a time, the entire frozen 
generation population gets recycled every five hundred years, and the 
volunteers are only 30 years older when they arive in the Islands 
cluster.  That's forseeable, but not a preferable solution.

As for the implied difference between the recorded events behind 
TCS's Islands campaign and the TD21 Medical Digest article, the TCS 
adventure was written well before the TD21 article, so it becomes a 
matter of preference on which one would take precedence.  Older 
versus newer, GDW vs DGP, adventure vs article.  Varies from TU to 
TU, I would suppose, although the general consensus will probably be 
to support the TCS background, as canonical references tend to win 
out over rules systems.

Which removes the restraint of having the PCs wake up at various 
times throughout history.  With that concept in mind, then the PCs 
could be put under, and brought out at any point in history when the 
Referee would like to have them come into play.  Works for me.

BTW, Shadow, in regards to your previous reference to cryonics, the 
TD21 article does refer to the same process as cold berthing (as 
opposed to chill berthing), and defines that as the basis for low 
berth technology until TL 11.  I guess that, if a Referee dislikes 
the UPP point loss per 25 years rule for cryonics/cold sleep, then 
that ruling could be applied to the TL11+ gravitic manipulation 
methods detailed, and increase the difficulty of the revival task one 
level because the subject was frozen at the point of death for TL 
9-10.  Just a thought...

Thanks, everyone, for the feedback.

Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 00:35:08 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Toys in the Imperium

>From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
>Subject: Re: A plea for cinematic restraint
>
>ObTrav: Toys in the Imperium. Are there toys like Imperial Navy
>or Marines action figures? Perhaps based on a popular fictional
>character in one of the services, a 54th-century G.I. Joe? I can
>see it now -- G.I. Giiragu action figures, with allies such as an
>Ithklur commando, and enemies such as a Zhodani operative complete
>with turban and glowing eyes to designate his evil psi powers at 
>work...

Well, Famile Spofulam does the Barbie's Own Battledress line, complete with
the fully-functional (and almost FFS2-legal) Particle Accelerator Carbine.

Ian Whitchurch
PA Ditzammer Spofulam, Executive Vice-President, Famile Spofulam

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:10:23 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: CC2 Deckplans (Re: no one plays CT anymore)

Paul Schirf posted:
>
>>IIRC, Pebble was *also* a hollow rock.  Mebbe not the best choice for
a
>boat that has to land...
>
>I have the ROCK and Pebble plans available on my site.  See:
> http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Rock.html
> http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/CC2.html

Just checked out your full site, Paul.

Dang, you've been busy!

*Nice* work, Paul, *very* nice!

I especially like the P.F. Sloan deckplans and the
Safari ship ones are par excellence.

I've picked up a license of CC2 and can't wait to learn
how to use it!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 06:04:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Far Trader Trade Routes, try two.

- --- Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
 
> > In the GT: Far Trader bood, it mentions that you should
> > follow the route of heaviest trade when presented with two
> > choices. What about when that will cause the trade to
> > drop down on the trade chart?
> 
> I don't follow you here.

When presented with two possible paths to follow, the rules 
say to follow the one with the most trade already on it. That 
makes sense. However, a common sense question. For example, 
there is a world that has a BTN with a neighbor that is a 9.0 
and is two hexes away. However, the path with more trade going 
that way detours and would make it a 6 hex path. That would 
drop the BTN to a 8.0. You can see that would probably create 
a niche market in ships to fill that route and not follow the 
path rule as in Far Trader. My question is, at what BTM loss point 
would that start taking place? 
 
> > At low levels, that probably
> > would make little to no differnence but as you rise, that
> > can make a significant monitary amount per year. I am guessing
> > that it would matter on a BTN of 5 and above. At a 5, it
> > seems that some enterprising soul would be willing to comit
> > his free trader to the 100KCr - 500KCr traffic.
> 
> Well, thats one free trader cargo hold per year!  Not much
> profit there.

Agreed. I just picked a BTN as an example. Should have picked 
one a bit higher.
  
> > Below that it
> > seems too little to matter. Above this, it cerainly seems
> > like they would not go a longer route if it lost half a
> > million credits, or more, in trade, per year. Opinions?
> >
> > Also, Far Trader mentions that if there is no trade route,
> > but enough trade for a minor route to give it one. My question
> > there is, can I use the same sort of combining of multiple
> > trade routes of the same size into a larger one as is done
> > with the main routes?
> 
> Sure.
> 
> > The book has three minor routes becoming
> > one feeder route. The way I have that figured, since the rule
> > is not specific, is that if there are two BTN's of 8 and one 8.5,
> > they become one 9.0. If it were two 8.5 and one 8.0, they would
> > become one 9.5. Is that a valid interpritation?
> 
> > I would use
> > the smaller trade routes in the same way, combining similar small
> > routes into one of the next rough integer up. Three 4.0 would
> become
> > one 5.0. two 4.5 and one 4.0 would become a 5.5. Is that a valid
> > rules interpretation?
> 
> The rules also state that you should bump up trade routes
> where it makes sense to do so, if the numbers don't exactly match.
> 
> Jim is the trade route wizard but I think your interpretations are
> mostly fine.  Combing 2 8s and an 8.5 to make a 9 seems to
> fit the numbers fine.  What doesn't is 1 8 and 2 8.5s making a
> 9.5.  Thats too generous, as the combined trade route would
> be 2.5GCr Max / 1.75 GCr Avg.  But a lone 9.5 is 5GCr
> Minimum!

So, the way even the larger routes are would follow this as well? 
Good, that is the sort of clarification I needed. I was unsure 
so I thought to throw out a possible interpretation and see what 
came back.
 
> What you need to remember with the BTN table is its log nature.
> Each integer increase is an increase in scale size.  To keep things
> manageable, I would just look at the Min and Max ranges of the
> combined Crs/Year and see where that falls.  Three Minor
> routes; (8.0-8.5) will range from 300MCr to 3GCr.  Close
> enough to call it a 9.0.
 
I just wanted to be certain that the same sort rule for the big boys
applied to the little fish too. That makes sense.

Thanks.

Terry 
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 16:43:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David E. Brooks Jr" <dbj@MPGN.COM>
Subject: [ADMIN] Just a test

This is just a test to confirm that the move of the mailing list was
successful (Just ignore this message).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 16:52:28 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: RE: Missle acceleration

At 09:56 AM 5/25/99 -0400, Ian Ferguson wrote:
>Rob Brady writes:
>"In book 2 it was never mentioned, but what would the acceleration
>of a missle be?"
><snipped>
>
>	IMTU the standard homing missile takes off at 12G. I based
>	this on the fact that missiles always hit even 6G ships, so
>	I just doubled 6G.

Assume 1G = 10m/s^2
I am rushing towards the spot I want to protect at 60m/s, and I
suddenly detect my enemy travelling towards me at 60m/s. I don't
react until we have passed each other, and I fire a 12G missle,
and it launches at 120m/s, leaving it at an absolute standstill
relative to my enemy. It cannot hit in the next turn. How fast
does it accelerate now, and what is its homing mechanism? 

>                        I don't keep track of exactly where the 
>	missiles are, but I calculate the expected time to impact
>	from the initial range and relative velocity. I also 

I get the idea that you don't think it has any acceleration, so
it is more like a cannon than a missle, in which case the enemy
escapes.



- -- 
Should've been dead on a Sunday morning
banging my head / no time for mourning
ain't got no time  -- Creed
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:35:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

In mail you write:

> This is about what I figured. However, keep in mind the main
> direction of the acceleration and provide support for soft body areas
> (i.e. the abdomen) with that in mind. The back of a human
> acceleration chair isn't really providing support for the "back";
> it's providing support for the skull, spine, the back of the ribs and
> pelvis, and the kidneys. These then provide support for the rest of
> the internal organs. Fortunately, there's nothing hard and dense in
> front of the kidneys.

> With K'kree, if the push of acceleration is from the floor and
> they're lying belly-down on a cradle, this would be the equivalent,
> in terms of acceleration affects, of a human lying perpendicular to a
> jet's acceleration while facing backwards. The soft abdominal organs
> will be between the force of acceleration and the spine.

Good point. 

> As for what effects this may have on these organs, I'm clueless but
> having one's abdomen crushed between a couch surface and one's spine
> can't be comfortable. Any medical/physics specialists out there what
> to expand on this?

Ok, revision time. The "hollow" in the "couch" I described must act
more like a water bed. That'll provide support *without* crushing
anything. 

However, for "high" acceleration (and I suspect that the K'Kree can't
handle really high acceleration), they'll not only need support for the
head & neck, but they'll also need *forced* ventilation. That is, some
sort of breathing mask, and something in the couch to help the lungs
expand (collapsing is no problem!).

> It seems to me, though, that the skull must be supported (the
> K'kree have *big* heads) and in such a way as to allow speech, sight,
> and hearing. Because of a K'kree's muzzle/snout (compared with a human's
> relatively flat face), would turning the head may be more difficult or
> dangerous than a human performing the same movement?

Herbivores only need to turn their heads to look *directly* behind
them. 

Speech will be somewhat restricted by K'kree accel couches. But there's
not really a choice, that sort of body *can't* operate for more than a
very short time "on its back".

> to think about. Also, make sure the couch/whatever helps keep the blood
> in the brain or provide the K'kree with their equivalent of G-suits.

Well, that's where the K'kree body plan has an advantage. Their
*normal* range of movement has to include their head against the ground
for grazing, their head held at maximum height (to watch for predators)
and everything in between. Therefore, having their head on the same
level as their body isn't a strain. So just the legs need "g-suit" type
fittings.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:51:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The CryoCampaign

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
> "Actually, there's another way. Cryonics. That is, being 
> frozen at the point of death or shortly thereafter...<snipped>
> It avoids a lot of the problems of low berths, though it adds 
> some of its own. 
>
> Pluses                          Minuses
> - ---------------------------   -----------------------------
> no loss of points over time     you're dead at the start
> <snipped>
>
>         Although your stats may be at 000, this does not (IMHO)
>         mean that you cannot 'loose more points.' For example, 
>         firing a FGMP-15 at a recently deceased person will
>         tend to have a significant effect on the body. The
>         "revivability" of a corpsicle will likely decline over 
>         the centuries.

It's kinda hard to see *how* it could decrease. There's *zero* chemical
activity going on (they are stored at liquid nitrogen temps). So they
can't "spoil". The container is sealed, so that prevents sublimation of
fluids in the body ("freeze drying"). 

The only thing left is radiation damage to cellular structures, and
that adds up very slowly. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:11:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

In mail you write:

> I'm on a deadline for SJG, so any ideas people have on this would be
> appreciated.
>
> What does a K'Kree acceleration couch (chair) look like? You know, the seats
> they sit in on the bridge of a ship...

A rectangular "block" rising from the floor, with a curved depression
in the middle. They walk up to it and either straddle it, which allows
use of the feet on control "pedals", or they "kneel" into it, which
leaves the legs folded.

The body is supported by the "couch", the legs don't need much support
as long as they aren't supporting the mass of that body. 

The neck/torso is probably supported by an extension of the "hump".
Since the K'kree are grazers, they should be comfortable with the head
straight out in front of the body. This also gives the maximum G
tolerance as the head and the heart are on the same level. For high G
manuevers, the legs will be in a sort of "g-suit to prevent blood
pooling. The rest of the body can make do. 

Oh yeah, given the nature of herbivores, the couch *will* be fitted
with sanitary connections. And a "feed bag". Their digestive systems
*will* require a lot of bulk, meaning that high fiber foods like "hay"
have got to be provided, not merely high quality foods like grain. 

When under normal acceleration, I expect that there may be a series of
"wraparound" displays placed at diferrent levels, you can select the
display by raising or lowering the head. 

And when I say wrap around, I *mean* wraparound. While the K'kree
*must* have binocular vision in at least part of their field of vision
to be good tool users, being descended from herbivores, it's likely a
narrow zone directly in fron of the head (say a 30 degree field). But
the eye placement gives them monocular vision out to almost 45 degrees
from straight *backwards*.

                        30
                      \    /
                       \  /
                        \/
               120     /  \    120
                     /      \
                   /          \
                       90

Given this sort of visual field, you can see why I specify "wraparound"
displays. In the 30 degree field, their vision ought to be as good as
humans. In the 120 degree fields, it's good, and include a special
sensitivity for motion (like our peripheral vision, only more so).

I suppose that there are also some sort of arm rests for high
acceleration. 

And yes, this stuff means that a human would be hard pressed to operate
a K'kree ship, It might take two or three humans per K'kree crew
position. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #671
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #672</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/26/99 2:29:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 26 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 672<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Toys of the Far Future (was Re: A plea for cinematic restraint)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:56:36 -0700<BR>
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Toys of the Far Future (was Re: A plea for cinematic restraint)<BR>
<BR>
> From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: A plea for cinematic restraint<BR>
 <BR>
> ObTrav: Toys in the Imperium. Are there toys like Imperial Navy<BR>
> or Marines action figures? Perhaps based on a popular fictional<BR>
> character in one of the services, a 54th-century G.I. Joe? I can<BR>
> see it now -- G.I. Giiragu action figures, with allies such as an<BR>
> Ithklur commando, and enemies such as a Zhodani operative complete<BR>
> with turban and glowing eyes to designate his evil psi powers at <BR>
> work...<BR>
> <BR>
> (I can also imagine plush, furry, stuffed toy Hivers...)<BR>
<BR>
What about the toys of non-humans?  OK, we all expect young Vargr and<BR>
Aslan to play with chew toys (well, so do very young humans, I guess). <BR>
Hivers don't pay attention to their juveniles, so have no toy culture. <BR>
Do Ael Yael have lots of flying toys?  I think a merchant would do well<BR>
selling frisbees to them.  K'Kree are basically mammalian, like humans,<BR>
Vargr, and Aslan, so I'd expect to see some things that are pleasant to<BR>
hold, but as they are vegetarians, probably won't have stuffed animals<BR>
- -- too much like holding a corpse.  Droyne toys would be interesting. <BR>
Many probably help the immature Droyne with casting.  <BR>
<BR>
The only canonical reference to toys that I can recall is the robot in<BR>
Adventure 1: Annic Nova.  It had an IR sensor and would follow a<BR>
character around.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 26 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 673



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The CryoCampaign
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED T4.1 Draft
Burito Files [was Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero...]
Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
RE: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
Science  fiction in the 3I (was: Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Aslan Script?
re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Corporate Structure  
Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
re: no one plays CT anymore
Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
SW ship models (E3 Corvette)
Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #670 Need Diaspora Information

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:32:31 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: The CryoCampaign

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 

> It's kinda hard to see *how* it could decrease. There's *zero* chemical
> activity going on (they are stored at liquid nitrogen temps).

Nitpicky point...LN2 temp is way above the 'zero chemical activity'
temperature, which is absolute zero.

I think that you were aiming at zero _enzymatic_ activity, which will be
pretty close to the truth.

There actually will be a fair bit of chemical activity going on, even at
LN2 temps, and that's what causes the slow degradation.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:06:37 +1000
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED T4.1 Draft

Guys, 

Is there a way, any way, of getting access to the T4.1 drafts? Don't be shy,
email me an answer one and all.  

Go on, you know you want to. It'd be ever so exciting.

Michael Hughes

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 19:39:28 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Burito Files [was Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero...]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BEA7AF.780A2A00
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Speaking of Joe Genero, whatever happened to the Burito Files?

Actually, that was a rhetorical question.  They are at the address =
below, but they are somewhat incomplete.  I'd really like to get some =
more of them.  There have been lots of these generic NPCs bandied about =
on the list.  Rob Eaglestone culled quite a few for the collection, but =
I _know_ that there are many more close at hand.  Slip me a few when you =
think of it.  Or toss them out on the list and I'll harvest :-)

http://www.downport.com/eaglestone


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SwordWorlder
http://www.downport.com


- ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BEA7AF.780A2A00
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Speaking of Joe Genero, whatever happened to the =
Burito=20
Files?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Actually, that was a rhetorical question.&nbsp; =
They are=20
at the address below, but they are somewhat incomplete.&nbsp; I'd really =
like to=20
get some more of them.&nbsp; There have been lots of these generic NPCs =
bandied=20
about on the list.&nbsp; Rob Eaglestone culled quite a few for the =
collection,=20
but I _know_ that there are many more close at hand.&nbsp; Slip me a few =
when=20
you think of it.&nbsp; Or toss them out on the list and I'll harvest=20
:-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><A=20
href=3D"http://www.downport.com/eaglestone">http://www.downport.com/eagle=
stone</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>SwordWorlder<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.downport.com">http://www.downport.com</A><BR></FONT></=
DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BEA7AF.780A2A00--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 16:47:32 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

>Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:54:01 -0500
>From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>

>With K'kree, if the push of acceleration is from the floor and they're
>lying
>belly-down on a cradle, this would be the equivalent, in terms of
>acceleration affects, of a human lying perpendicular to a jet's
>acceleration
>while facing backwards. The soft abdominal organs will be between the
>force of acceleration and the spine.
>
>As for what effects this may have on these organs, I'm clueless but
>having
>one's abdomen crushed between a couch surface and one's spine can't be
>comfortable. Any medical/physics specialists out there what to expand on
>this?

The weight of bone is that much more.  The weight pressing down on
the organs at the bottom shouldn't be much more than the other way
around.  Though our breathing moves in an out the front so there
is an issue about having a low acceleration cutoff before you can't
breath.  However, I think lack of blood to the brain is the main
issue.  I would think that the couch would just have to be well
designed to support the soft underbelly evenly (and there isn't
much you can do unless you put the K'Kree on their backs and they
would _love_ that...  :-)
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:00:46 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <JCornish@appiangraphics.com>
Subject: RE: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

Andy,

Neat question.  Actually somewhat parallel to the TSR Star Frontiers issue
of 'what do Vrusk sit on?'  (the Vrusk being a 10 legged Insectoid race).
The illo's I've seen show a long contoured 'bench.'

Now the K'kree are quite a different creature.  I'd it'd either be like a
comfy, high tech deer nest <the actual word escapes me at the moment>, maybe
on a raised dias.  Controls would be arranged around them, holographically
projected, along with some pylons around the perimeter.

For smaller workstations you'd probably have the Vrusk style bench with
holographics displays to the sides and a cool instrumentation console ahead
(with a large HUD).

Stations would be arranged as per the functions.  Commo and Command in the
center, sensors fore, defenses and weapons around.  Pilot and astrogator
somewhere in the middle front.

It'd probably look more like a restaurant than a bridge...

Jeffrey Cornish
Tales of the Tai Pan, technical consultant


- ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 00:52:06 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@truserve.com>
Subject: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

I'm on a deadline for SJG, so any ideas people have on this would be
appreciated.

What does a K'Kree acceleration couch (chair) look like? You know, the seats
they sit in on the bridge of a ship...

Any opinions on what would be best?

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@truserve.com - http://www.truserve.com/~igor/           |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:23:08 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Science  fiction in the 3I (was: Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

>>>> (begin quoted material)
ObTrav: What is the face of science-fiction like in the Imperium? Where
do
Imperials see themselves in 10, 20, 50, 100 or 200 years? What social
trends
are there that show up in their science-fiction? Where do they see
their
technology a few years down the line? Do they have quasi-modern
"conspiracy
thrillers" and the like?

Chris Seamans
>>>> (end quoted material)
I suspect that sci-fi in the 3I would change over time.  In M:0 the
sci-fi would be full of adventure stories, reconstruction/recontact
stories, and merchant prince stories.  In M:1100 you would tend to get
more conspiracy stories, and fewer of the other.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 08:35:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Aslan Script?

Gang, like Andy, I'm also on a deadline for SJG.  Unfortunately,
my memory has picked now to fail me.

In one of the MT books (I *think*), there is an illustration consisting
of several lines of Aslan script: Female scientific glyphs, Male poetic
cursive, and one other (IIRC).  I CAN'T REMEMBER WHICH BOOK THIS IS IN!!

If any of you could point out volume and page to me, I'd *really*
appreciate it.  The clock is running...

Thanks in advance,

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 18:37:10 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

 "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com> wrote:

>Of course, I was playing in a military Traveller campaign at the time
>Aliens was showing so it hit very close to home for my group at
>the time.
>
>But, gamewise, you're absolutely right.

Conversely, I think 'Alien' could be either 2300 or Traveller. Aliens is
2300, A^3 is err. Hmm

ISTR playing 2300 soon after seeing Aliens and it just clicked. I really
liked it. I was sad when I realised that T2300 and Trav where different
games.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:32:53 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Corporate Structure  

Thad Coons wrote:

>Only large organizations would make much use of E6 or higher ranks.
Perhaps >union officials in US industry might be considered as
high-ranking "enlisted"
>employees.

Not necessarily, many small companies have Master craftsmen who did not
go the management route and are hourly employees.  One example: master
tool and die makers, normal promotion route,
1. apprentice machinist
2. journeyman machinist
3. senor journeyman machinist
4. apprentice tool & die maker
5. journeyman tool & die maker
6. senor journeyman tool & die maker
7. master tool & die maker

There should be otherjobs that require journeyman level skills before
allowing apprentice.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:13:09 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

Wed, 26 May 1999 00:52:06 -0500, "Andrew Akins" <igor@truserve.com>
>Subject: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
>
>I'm on a deadline for SJG, so any ideas people have on this would be
>appreciated.
>
>What does a K'Kree acceleration couch (chair) look like? You know, the seats
>they sit in on the bridge of a ship...
>
>Any opinions on what would be best?

1) They need to have the weight taken off their limbs.  Unless they want to
rest on their back or side (awkward for controls), then then need to rest
on something along their bellies.  It should curve upward to cradles
their bodies with places for their legs.  The front problably has a place
to rest their upper bodies against unless they lay out flat.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:14:31 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: re: no one plays CT anymore

>>>> (begin quoted material)
I kind of like asteroid ships - must be those Saturday mornings wasted
watching _Jason of Star Command_ and _Space Academy_(?). :-)

IMTU, I don't allow a class discount on asteroid hulls. Each rock has
different centers of gravity, fracture lines, overall shape, etc., so
it
didn't seem appropriate that mass-production techniques would apply
as written. In some ways, each asteroid ship must be custom made.

Walt Smith
>>>> (end qouted material)
Hey!  I have Jason of Star Command in MY Traveller Universe, so hands
off :-) thank you very much.  Actually I have a friend whose name is
Jason, and we were busy playing Traveller in '79 when that show was on
TV.  We both liked the show, so it was a natural fit for my campaign. 
The Star Command IMTU ended up in one of the empty hexes spinward of
Tureded in a large grouping of asteroids.

I believe the rules in HG indicated that asteroid hulls didn't get a
volume discount for similar reasons to what you gave.  I don't have that
book with me here at work so I can't confirm that precisely.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:28:13 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

At 09:54 26/05/1999 -0500, "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
wrote:

<snip interesting stuff>

so a possible conclusion is that a K'kree acceleration couch might be the
otherway up?

IE like a contoured padded box on the ceiling with the K'kree's upper
torso strapped to the vertical part and their lower torso strapped to
the horizontal bit.

Another reason why they don't like fighters.

For most K'kree ships, I would assume that they either stand all the time
(like horses) or kneel down (like cattle). In the latter case, the panels
will be lower (ie normal human height) and there might be a padded area
for them to lie on.

I'd go with the K'kree not actually using acceleration couches to allow
higher G.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:21:20 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: SW ship models (E3 Corvette)

  FWIW, AMT/ERTL makes the "Droid Fighter" model kit for SW:I (#30118).
For under $10 US you get three very nice little ships 3" long by 2" wide.
As models they're unimpressive; for Trav mini's people they make nice
600-1000 ton ships in close enough scale to the RAFM stuff to show up on
the same table (or a grav-mobility aircraft for 15mm use).

  Hmm... - lots of curves, all we need is a gaudy paint & script job:

"SLASHER" (?) -Class Aslan Corvette (TL E)
        BR-71337G2 - 830000 - 05102-0   MCr 522.8306       700 tons
	  batts	      1        14 1	                 Crew = 15.
        Cargo=10.8. LHyd=259. EP=49. Agility=2. Marines=10. Hangar=26.  
        Streamlined. Scoops, purification plant. MCr 653.53826 singly.

  Here's a nice little anti-shipping unit for those Aslan fans out there -
decent armour, a great computer and lots of guns that look very impressive*
and make suitable messes of non-hardened targets. The hangar (actually an
external grapple) will handle a 20-ton launch or gunship, although if a TNE
game were to see it hauling a Cuspied-class then it should be considered 
that a TL F version of the mothership would almost certainly have been
produced (performance increases and cost drops by ~MCr 100).

 * one is inclined to wonder whether screens and sandcasters might not be
crewed by females.

        Steven Hudson

The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"
        (but Space 1889 is quite cool, too)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 10:27:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit

- --- Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
 
> >So at what point you you put the break where it becomes worth it 
> >to have a dedicated tiny route?
> 
> Thats a GM decision. The breakpoint is 8 to determine if those chunky
> DMs
> for being on a route apply to such things as passenger numbers,
> placing
> bids and so on.

Grumble. I was afraid you would say that. Ok, I will figure it 
out on a case by case basis.
 
> >> I'd say no. The two 8.5s would add to about GCr 1.5 - bottom of
> the
> >> 9.0
> >> level. You could add ten 8.0 routes (total GCr 2.5), and still be
> in
> >> about
> >> the middle of 9.0 territory with GCr 4.0.
> >
> >So you say that it should always round up to the low end of 
> >the spectrum?
> 
> Round off to it, yeah.

Got it. That makes sense.

> >While that might be so, that is not how the rules read. They talk 
> >about jumping up to the next highest route type, not the next
> highest 
> >BTN. 
> 
> It's the art-and-a-science thing, I think.

Yes, but is it art? <grumble> Fine! I guess I will round to the 
low end as that seems to make more sense.
 
> >I am working on a cannon trade map. I have to use the rules as 
> >closely as I can. If the rule needs to be errata'd, great. I can
> live
> >with that. If not, then I need to find out the way that our
> Traveller 
> >Economists think this needs to  be. As written, it is unclear and 
> >limiting my ability to work up a detailed map.
> 
> Yes. It isnt 100% clear because they are guidelines ... as Jim said,
> it's
> both an art and a science. It could be errata'd ... but a better idea
> is
> for someone to achieve Guru status by actually doing it for the
> Spinward
> Marches *grin*. Me, I say 'Mixon et Frere' is a great name for a
> not-quite-megacorp ...

I don't think it is THAT grand but I have some hopes of making 
a lasting contibution. 

> >You can see why it is very relevent to the question. On these small 
> >matters, the path and addition of small route (and large one's now 
> >that you mention them) swings the balance of trade in a subsector. 
> 
> OK, this is the way I'd deal with this. You start from top-down, not
> from
> bottom up. The 2 7.5s dont round to an eight, so the rest never
> occours -
> unless you want to use the exemption on the top of p19 to give it
> one. You
> have to have a route to make a bigger one, and if it's smaller than
> BTN 8,
> it isnt a route ... I'd also rule that 'exemption' minor routes and
> 'combination' routes dont count for three-into-a-bigger route.

I like that. That works for me.
 
> Get a big map of the Marches, with starports, trade codes and WTNs on
> each world, and x-boat routes inked in.

Done. A combo of a photoshop map with the jump routes and a database 
of the trade information.

> Every time you calculate a route, type it into a datbase.

Doing that. It will keep track of from world to world for each 
hop along the way.

> Start with Mora, and link it to the Golden Worlds - Lunion, Strouden,
> Glisten, Porozolo, Rhylanor and Trin.
> 
> Given you are connecting a 6.5 system to a bunch of 6.0s, we have
> Major
> Routes for everything 29 parsecs or less, and Feeder Routes for the
> rest.

Good point. I have the Cronor subsector done and am ready to move 
on to it.
 
<snip>
 
> Madness now lurks. Minor routes. By this time, you'll be looking at a
> map,
> going *bang*, thats a Minor route.
> 
> Do it subsector by subsector. First the 4.5s, then the 4s. Most of
> the
> routes to the Golden Worlds should get sucked into bigger existing
> routes
> at this point. You might get 'lateral' routes - 2 4.5 worlds with a
> +1/2
> Trade Code Mod can make a Minor Route if 9 parsecs apart.
> 
> Now the payoff. We now now how much trade there is in the Marches.
> Knowing
> this, we can calculate exactly how much shipping there is, and how
> many
> Free Traders.

This is a good plan of attack. Thanks for the advice on that. 
I feel energized. <g>
 
Thanks. I will keep the list posted and possibly post an intirim 
jpg on my web site so folks can see how things are progessing.

Terry 

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:42:38 -0500
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #670 Need Diaspora Information

Anyone having info on the Diaspora Sector (especially as it relates to
the 2nd Solomani Rim War), I'd appreciate any files/info you have: send
off-line to jeffg@ionstorm.com.

Happy Travelling!

THE LOCALIZER
jeffg@ionstorm.com

The price of greatness is responsibility. (Winston Churchill)



> -----Original Message-----
> From:	owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
> [SMTP:owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM]
> Sent:	26 May 1999 07:56
> To:	traveller-digest@lists.MPGN.COM
> Subject:	Traveller-digest V1999 #670
> 
> 
> Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 26 1999       Volume 1999 :
> Number 670
> 
> 
> 
> (R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
> All rights reserved.
> 
> The following topics are covered in this digest:
> 
> Re: The CryoCampaign (Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters)
> Re: Darrian Artists
> Re: The First Annual TML Vilani BBQ
> ShoreCon '99
> Re: GT: Far Trader Trade Routes, try two.
> On Topic: Morrow Project 
> Re: Boston area headcount
> Re: The First Annual TML Vilani BBQ
> re: PC's Playing Themselves as characters (OT)
> re: PC's playing themselves as characters (OT)
> Re: The CryoCampaign 
> Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
> SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Book 8 query
> Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
> Re: PC's Playing Themselves as Characters
> Re: turnover of Imperial companies
> Re: Fun things to do with a field phone
> Re: Corporate Structure
> Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
> Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
> Re: Fun things to do with a field phone
> RE: The CryoCampaign
> Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters
> Rob Prior...
> Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:28:56 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: The CryoCampaign (Re: PCs Playing Themselves As
> Characters)
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Glenn St Germain asked:
> >
> >> ObTrav (sort of): the challenge in using the players themselves as
> PCs
> >> in a Traveller game is how to get the characters to jump forward in
> time
> >> nearly 3500 years to the time of the Imperium...  :)
> >
> > Well, two methods immediately jump to mind:  temporal stasis
> (Ancient 
> > technology) and cryogenics (low berths.)  The discover of an Ancient
> 
> > device that no one else has found or will find for 3500 years is, 
> > IMHO, pretty lame.  That can be worked around by having some "greys"
> 
> > pick the PCs up one night and experiment on the device using them as
> 
> > guinea pigs.  But it's still weak, and hard to fit into canon.
> 
> Actually, there's another way. Cryonics. That is, being frozen at the
> point of death or shortly thereafter in hopes that you can be revived
> in the future and that your condition can be cured then. This has been
> going on for at least 20 years.
> 
> It avoids a lot of the problems of low berths, though it adds some of
> its own. 
> 
> Pluses				Minuses
> - ---------------------------	-----------------------------
> no loss of points over time	you're dead at the start
> available now			could be a long time before they can
> 				revive you, much less cure you
> 
> I'd guess that *some* cryonicly preserved people will be revivable by
> the time low berths are invented. But it could take some time *after*
> low berths are invented to be able to repair the damage from freezing.
> 
> 
> For some somewhat more extensive info on the subject, grab a copy of
> "The First Immortal" by Halperin. 
> 
> Once low berths are avialable, cryonic suspension will no longer be
> done. But there will be a lot of cryonicly preserved people
> (corpsicles, to use Niven's term) awaiting revival for some time. 
> 
> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 23:40:19 -0400
> From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
> Subject: Re: Darrian Artists
> 
> The only thing I don't like about the group is their "Artist" name.
> How
> about an original untranslated Darrian name that was originally
> mistranslated to "Artist" by Solomani explorers circa -1511?  By the
> Maghiz
> in -925, some 586 years later the new name could have become the
> accepted
> label used by non-members.  Zar-tis? Ya-ri-zdet?
> 
> Paul Schirf
> Paul@Schirf.com
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:46:43 +1000
> From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
> Subject: Re: The First Annual TML Vilani BBQ
> 
> Dear Doug -
> 
> On behalf of the rest of the TML, please pass on our regards to all
> who
> attend.
> 
> Have fun! I'm sure we'll all be there in spirit.
> 
> (Maybe the rest of us should hold the The First Annual TML Vilani
> _Virtual_
> BBQ).
> 
> ;-)
> -
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM
> 1520)
> http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw
> davidjw@pcug.org.au
> "I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of
> gravity"
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 23:53:22 -0400
> From: Tal Meta <talmeta@cybercomm.net>
> Subject: ShoreCon '99
> 
> Greetings...
> 
> I'm the RPG coordinator for ShoreCon '99, which will be held on
> September 9-12 1999 at the Hilton in Cherry Hill, NJ. In that
> capacity,
> I'm making a final plea for GMs to run Traveller events (Classic,
> MegaTrav, New Era, GURPS, you name it!) at the convention. The best
> way
> to get people interested in the game is for them to -play- the game,
> and
> a convention is one of the easiest and most visible ways of
> accomplishing that!
> 
> The deadline for event submissions is June 1st, and by visiting our
> website at <http://gameconventions.com/ShoreCon> you can find complete
> information on hotel accomodations, online GM registration (now
> guaranteed to work!), and even get on the mailing list to have our
> pre-registration book sent directly to you. If you are interested in
> GMing an event, the time to sign up is now!
> 
> This year ShoreCon will will be having several special guests,
> including
> Peter Adkison (President and CEO of WotC/TSR), Steve Jackson
> (President
> of Steve Jackson Games) and Jolly Blackburn (creator of Knights of the
> Dinner Table)!
> 
> We'll also be boasting Target Games' 1st Annual Games Expo, several
> LARPs (Vampire, Star Wars, and Toon!), as well as a large selection of
> RPGs, CCGs, Miniature events and Network Gaming!
> 
> Thanx for your time...
> 
> - -- 
> talmeta@cybercomm.net - Heretic & Dilettante
> ICQ - 12594453
> AIM - talmeta (note change!)
> Homepage - <http://members.xoom.com/talmeta>
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:17:42 -0400
> From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Subject: Re: GT: Far Trader Trade Routes, try two.
> 
> Terry Mixon wrote:
> 
> > I never recieved any input on this question so I will
> > make a second try at asking for assistance.
> >
> > In the GT: Far Trader bood, it mentions that you should
> > follow the route of heaviest trade when presented with two
> > choices. What about when that will cause the trade to
> > drop down on the trade chart?
> 
> I don't follow you here.
> 
> > At low levels, that probably
> > would make little to no differnence but as you rise, that
> > can make a significant monitary amount per year. I am guessing
> > that it would matter on a BTN of 5 and above. At a 5, it
> > seems that some enterprising soul would be willing to comit
> > his free trader to the 100KCr - 500KCr traffic.
> 
> Well, thats one free trader cargo hold per year!  Not much
> profit there.
> 
> 
> > Below that it
> > seems too little to matter. Above this, it cerainly seems
> > like they would not go a longer route if it lost half a
> > million credits, or more, in trade, per year. Opinions?
> >
> > Also, Far Trader mentions that if there is no trade route,
> > but enough trade for a minor route to give it one. My question
> > there is, can I use the same sort of combining of multiple
> > trade routes of the same size into a larger one as is done
> > with the main routes?
> 
> Sure.
> 
> > The book has three minor routes becoming
> > one feeder route. The way I have that figured, since the rule
> > is not specific, is that if there are two BTN's of 8 and one 8.5,
> > they become one 9.0. If it were two 8.5 and one 8.0, they would
> > become one 9.5. Is that a valid interpritation?
> 
> > I would use
> > the smaller trade routes in the same way, combining similar small
> > routes into one of the next rough integer up. Three 4.0 would become
> > one 5.0. two 4.5 and one 4.0 would become a 5.5. Is that a valid
> > rules interpretation?
> 
> The rules also state that you should bump up trade routes
> where it makes sense to do so, if the numbers don't exactly match.
> 
> Jim is the trade route wizard but I think your interpretations are
> mostly fine.  Combing 2 8s and an 8.5 to make a 9 seems to
> fit the numbers fine.  What doesn't is 1 8 and 2 8.5s making a
> 9.5.  Thats too generous, as the combined trade route would
> be 2.5GCr Max / 1.75 GCr Avg.  But a lone 9.5 is 5GCr
> Minimum!
> 
> What you need to remember with the BTN table is its log nature.
> Each integer increase is an increase in scale size.  To keep things
> manageable, I would just look at the Min and Max ranges of the
> combined Crs/Year and see where that falls.  Three Minor
> routes; (8.0-8.5) will range from 300MCr to 3GCr.  Close
> enough to call it a 9.0.
> 
> - --
> Bloo
> Support Guru
> Roger Wilco
> http://www.rogerwilco.com/
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:22:33 -0400
> From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Subject: On Topic: Morrow Project 
> 
> "Brannon W. Boren" wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 24 May 1999, Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> >
> > > OT: Is there a living Morrow Project mailing list somewhere?
> >
> > ///CONFIRM CONFIRM CONFIRM///
> >
> > PROJECT COMMUNICATION SET TO CHANNEL:
> > MP@nostromo.gate.net
> > for the Morrow Project Mailing List
> >
> > Also available: MP Gearhead List. Inquire at above for specifics.
> >
> > ///SECURE COMMUNICATIONS LINK///
> > ///END END END///
> >
> 
> This reminds me.  I made an effort a few months ago,
> to transplant a Morrow Project type setting into
> the OTU.  I wanted to try running a PBeM.
> 
> I tried to link it to the Solomani Phoenix Project.
> I even tried looking for a suitable ROM setting, which
> would lead to the Long Knight.
> 
> Ultimately, I concluded that no matter how I spun it,
> it would only be a superficial non-Virus version of TNE.
> And TNE did that kind of setting fine.
> 
> So much for trying to be original.  ;-)
> 
> - --
> Bloo
> Support Guru
> Roger Wilco
> http://www.rogerwilco.com/
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 17:35:41 -0400
> From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Subject: Re: Boston area headcount
> 
> "Peter H. Brenton" wrote:
> 
> > People I know inside the greater Boston area refer to the area
> outside 495
> > as "Sleestac Territory" and the farthest out MBTA stop as "the last
> pylon".
> >
> > If you understand these references, you watched too much TV (on
> Saturday)
> > in the 70s.
> >
> > Pete
> 
> LOL!  Guilty.
> 
> Guess I'm at the first pylon: where Boston turns to Brighton/Alston
> 
> - --
> Bloo
> Support Guru
> Roger Wilco
> http://www.rogerwilco.com/
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 00:13:56 -0400
> From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
> Subject: Re: The First Annual TML Vilani BBQ
> 
> At 01:46 PM 5/26/99 +1000, you wrote:
> >Dear Doug -
> >
> >On behalf of the rest of the TML, please pass on our regards to all
> who
> >attend.
> >
> >Have fun! I'm sure we'll all be there in spirit.
> >
> >(Maybe the rest of us should hold the The First Annual TML Vilani
> _Virtual_
> >BBQ).
> 
> I dunno about the 'virtual' part.  What the Denny's around here serve,
> it
> could be ol' Uncle Eneri.  
> 
> Kurt Feltenberger
> kurt@blazenet.net
> Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
> WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l
> 
> "To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
>      may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
> 
> ~Stephen Decatur
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 00:13:44 -0400
> From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
> Subject: re: PC's Playing Themselves as characters (OT)
> 
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> We also had an "archway" between the living room and dining room that
> was 10 feet wide (same as a "standard" corridor in most people's
> games)
> We'd line them up in the archway and ask them to *try* swinging
> (practice) weapons. They quickly agreed that 3 people across in that
> much space was about the most that could manage to fight...
> 
> Yes, we actually *did* have people who thought that 5 people could
> fight in that much space. Sheesh!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> With spears and a 3 man 1st rank/2 man 2nd rank, perhaps. Might be
> a useful trick, kind of a mini-phalanx effect, but if one of you
> screwed up
> or got downed you might all be in a tangle. Intersections would also
> be a royal pain.
> 
> Walt Smith
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 00:20:22 -0400
> From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
> Subject: re: PC's playing themselves as characters (OT)
> 
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > We had a rifle, two shotguns and a couple of pistols, with a couple
> of
> > hundred rounds of ammo each. For some unknown reason, the bullets
> > that were already made worked - we just couldn't make more
> gunpowder.
> 
> Easy. Modern weapons don't *use* black powder, which is what you guys
> were trying to make. Modern smokeless powder is a lot more complex.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Ah-hah. The smokeless powder was too complicated for the alchemy
> spirits to understand, so they left it alone.
> 
> I think it had more to do with the bullets being "complete" - to us,
> at
> least, or perhaps to the bullets themselves. Same thing with the guns,
> our wriistwatches, etc. The chemicals *knew* they were ingredients for
> 
> other things, so didn't have enough identity to remain unchanged.
> There
> were other inanimate objects that had some kind of self-awareness - 
> I think the GM's view of alchemy was based on this concept.
> 
> That's just a guess, I hadn't talked out the logic with the GM. It may
> be he just liked the idea of our (limited) ammo supply working, but 
> didn't want us making big barrels of explosives or revolutionizing the
> local economy.
> 
> Walt Smith
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 22:40:26 -0600
> From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
> Subject: Re: The CryoCampaign 
> 
> At 11:30 PM 5/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >According to the article, a person under Cold Sleep loses one point
> >from one physical characteristic per 25 years of suspension,
> >recoverable by 1d6 days of hospitalization per point lost after the
> >person is revived.  Death results is all physical characteristics
> >reach zero.  Thus, longterm cryogenics use can be dangerous, so the
> >PCs would have to wake up every so often.  As the average person has
> >physical characteristics of 777, then that means death occurs after 
> >(21*25=) 525 years suspension for Joe Genero.
> 
> The only problem with this is the 300,000 sleepers on the ESA Long
> Range
> Colony Mission, who survived up to 2,463 years in low berths, with
> only one
> interruption (Adv 5: Trillion Credit Squadron, p. 40).
> 
> The background of the Islands Clusters Campaign makes a good "cicada"
> campaign, although not quite close enough for the players to play
> themselves. You start before 2050 (post-Cyberpunk), prepping for the
> journey. You go to sleep, wake up somewhere along the way for 5 years
> --
> somewhere interesting, no doubt -- go back to sleep, and wake up in
> the
> Islands Clusters. Once there, you start a colony on an untouched world
> (World Tamers).
> 
> If you really wanted, you could postulate that some sleepers with
> "special
> talents" were kept on ice, and revive them in the 5640's to deal with
> the
> threat of invasion from outside -- from the Imperium.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 00:52:06 -0500
> From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@truserve.com>
> Subject: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
> 
> I'm on a deadline for SJG, so any ideas people have on this would be
> appreciated.
> 
> What does a K'Kree acceleration couch (chair) look like? You know, the
> seats
> they sit in on the bridge of a ship...
> 
> Any opinions on what would be best?
> 
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Andrew Akins                                                       |
> | Home: igor@truserve.com - http://www.truserve.com/~igor/           |
> | Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
> |       vi+ da+                                                      |
> | Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
> |       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:53:37 +1000
> From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
> Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Book 8 query
> 
> Is there meant to be a Volume rating for installed
> devices/sensors/weapons
> in Book 8? The tables seem to only factor in weight, power and cost,
> perhaps
> assuming any devices added are external to the chassis. However, under
> manipulator's, I think it says that they can hold twice their weight
> in
> installed devices etc. 
> 
> So, should a rule of thumb be Volume = Twice Weight?
> 
> Michael Hughes
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 23:20:34 -0700
> From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
> Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
> 
> Would a K'kree sit in a chair?
> 
> Shawn Campbell
> electric-stitch@w-link.net
> IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)
> 
> From: Andrew Akins <igor@truserve.com>
> 
> > I'm on a deadline for SJG, so any ideas people have on this would be
> > appreciated.
> >
> > What does a K'Kree acceleration couch (chair) look like? You know,
> the
> seats
> > they sit in on the bridge of a ship...
> >
> > Any opinions on what would be best?
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 02:47:13 -0400
> From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
> Subject: Re: PC's Playing Themselves as Characters
> 
> I once ran a scenario in which my players played themselves, a bunch
> of
> geeky high school students -- unexpectedly zapped and rendered into
> bits by
> a rather unlikely matter-digitizing machine in the school's computer
> lab.
> They found themselves wandering a labyrinthine cyberspace, being
> forced to
> take part in deadly arena games (surprisingly similar to "Defender"
> and
> "Asteroids"), and trying to avoid being "de-rezzed" by
> Discriminators...
> 
> I was taking advantage of being the first in the group to see the
> movie
> "Tron" -- the players hadn't caught it yet. Didn't take them long to
> catch
> on, though.
> 
> Best,
> 
>  + GMG +
> 
>           Glenn Grant
>          neo@total.net
>     "Hell is Other Robots."
> - - Robot Hell Brochure, Futurama
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 19:51:22 +1100
> From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
> Subject: Re: turnover of Imperial companies
> 
> >From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
> >Subject: Turnover of Imperial Companies
> >
> >Anyone care to make a guesstimate of the MCr turnover of Imperial
> >corporations, large and small? For example, Jamison Factors,
> Oberlindes,
> >Tukera, Makhidkarun?
> >
> >I'm just trying to get a handle on what are sensible values (order of
> >magnitude accuracy is fine).
> 
> OK ... each major corp in an area gets 1% of Gross Product for that
> area.
> 
> For megacorps, thier area is the Imperium. Makhadurin and Tukera thus
> have
> 1% of Gross Imperial Product, which is very, very, very gross.
> Trillions.
> Many trillions. More than I wanna count.
> 
> On the other hand, Oberlindes only gets 1% of the Spinward Marches.
> Call it
> 6 TL15 planets 10 billion pop, thats ummm one percent of 15 000 per
> capita,
> times 10 bill, times six, which is 1% of 90 trillion, or call it a
> rough
> trillion credits. Thats turnover, of course. Profit is proably a small
> chunk of this.
> 
> Jamison Factors run a tramp trader, dont they ? Maybe five mill
> turnover,
> absolute tops.
> 
> Kinda puts things in perspective, doesnt it ...
> 
> Ian Whitchurch
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 01:45:56 -0700
> From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
> Subject: Re: Fun things to do with a field phone
> 
> > From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
>  
> > ObTrav : One would imagine in an era of "wonder-drugs" and other
> neato
> > stuff, the idea of gaining info from someone by force may have
> fallen by
> > the wayside ?
> 
> "Look here, Dawson, there's no need to get rough with the prisoner. 
> Just give him a shot of truth juice and hook him up to the monitor and
> we'll get everything we need in a jiffy."
> 
> "Yes, but where's the job satisfaction in that?"
> 
> - --Glenn
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 10:31:40 +0100
> From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: Corporate Structure
> 
> At 14:20 25/05/1999 -0400, Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com> wrote:
> >Phil Kitching wrote:
> >
> >>>6. Works.  2000 employees or more. Only the largest industries
> >>>have this many employees at any one site. These are major
> >>>employers and there should be no more than one or two of these
> >>>per million population or so.
> >
> >>This should be highly tech level dependent.
> >>Rare at low tech, at industrial age tech multi-thousand employee
> >>sites should be quite common and form a significant proportion
> >>of the workforce.  As tech increases, diversity of production
> >>and the improved ability for remote working reduces the size of
> >>a works.
> >
> >A major works of any kind has to be supported by many different
> >enterprises to supply food, housing, transportation, medical,
> >cultural, educational, and other services to the employees and
> >their dependents, not to mention suppliers and customers for the
> >works itself. It is the ability to provide these services that
> >limits the size of a works.  If employees live in company housing
> >and have company plumbers, the company will employ a greater
> >proportion of the society than if they live in private housing
> >and pay independent contractors, but the number of plumbers
> >needed does not depend significantly on where their paycheck
> >comes from. Spaceports and shipyards come to mind as examples of
> >"works" that may well increase in size with TL.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> What I meant was that at current TL, the town where I work only
> has *one* "Works" for about 170,000 people. Improved automation
> means that very few workplaces would qualify as bigger than a
> "Site" (more machines but fewer people).
> 
> Go back two TL and a population of 100,000 might have perhaps
> half a dozen "Works".
> 
> I think you need something larger than "Works", eg "Major Works"
> which employs more than 10,000 people in one place. This is the
> size that is at the one per million people rate at current TL.
> 
> Phil Kitching
> - --
>   http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
>   Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
>  "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 03:12:02
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
> 
> At 12:52 AM 5/26/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >I'm on a deadline for SJG, so any ideas people have on this would be
> >appreciated.
> >
> >What does a K'Kree acceleration couch (chair) look like? You know,
> the seats
> >they sit in on the bridge of a ship...
> >
> >Any opinions on what would be best?
> 
> considering what we've seen of their resting position, a cradle-type
> affair
> taht allows them to get off their feet.  Put a butt stop at the rear
> to
> stop them from sliding off.
> - -- 
> 
> Doug Berry
> dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:04:18 +1200
> From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
> Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
> 
> >What does a K'Kree acceleration couch (chair) look like? You know,
> the
> seats
> >they sit in on the bridge of a ship...
> >
> >Any opinions on what would be best?
> 
> Have you ever seen a bull-milking cradle ?
> 
> Frankie
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 06:43:15 -0500
> From: SFC Groth <wombat@premier.net>
> Subject: Re: Fun things to do with a field phone
> 
> Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> > 
> > > From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
> > 
> > > ObTrav : One would imagine in an era of "wonder-drugs" and other
> neato
> > > stuff, the idea of gaining info from someone by force may have
> fallen by
> > > the wayside ?
> > 
> > "Look here, Dawson, there's no need to get rough with the prisoner.
> > Just give him a shot of truth juice and hook him up to the monitor
> and
> > we'll get everything we need in a jiffy."
> > 
> > "Yes, but where's the job satisfaction in that?"
> > 
> I figure that Imperial military interrogators have an attitude similar
> to that of US Army interrogators these days:  Only amateurs torture
> prisoners...for information.
> 
> Ars Gratia Artis.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 08:31:23 -0400
> From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
> Subject: RE: The CryoCampaign
> 
> Jason Kemp writes:
> <snipped>
> "This gives the GM an opportunity to run vignettes of different 
> time periods for the PCs, showing them first-hand the transition 
> of humanity and interstellar civilization over time."
> <snipped>
> 
> 	I like this idea a lot. Unfortunately, as always, I am 
> 	unlikely to find the time to develop it much. I did run a
> 	short campaign involving shifts between time-lines, but as
> 	you suggested the problem was getting the party to keep 
> 	shifting. One possibility that I never explored is that the
> 	temporal shift is inflicted on the players by a secret 
> 	society that is in a running battle with them across the
> 	centuries (eg. it is a weapon). I know, it's a stretch.
> 
> Peez
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 08:42:12 -0400
> From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
> Subject: Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters
> 
> John Buston writes:
> "There was a White Dwarf Traveller Scenario set in Victorian 
> England, can't remember its name or issue though."
> <snipped>
> 
> 	Dr. Who anyone?
> 
> Peez
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 08:47:35 EDT
> From: Diespamer@aol.com
> Subject: Rob Prior...
> 
> Rob Prior:
> 
> If you're out there, please contact Fred Kiesche at:
> 
> Diespamer@aol.com
> 
> ...regarding an important matter!!!!!
> 
> (Sorry for the waste of bandwidth for the rest of you fine folks...)
> 
> Fred Kiesche
> (Diespamer@aol.com)
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:57:36 +0100
> From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
> 
> Would they have any need ? they went from nothing to Gravatics, missed
> out
> chemical rockets, no need for acceleration couches ... just backup
> systems.
> 
> Would you have a bridge on a K'Kree ship ? the less enclosures the
> better, you
> might have a bridge area in the main enclosure, but you would have to
> have
> room for all the ontorage to come with the pilot.
> 
> K'Kree are hearding wide open spaces sophants, if it dosn't look like
> a nice
> parsture with nice skies they arn't going to stay there for time it
> takes to jump.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> Ewan
> 
> 
> From: Andrew Akins <igor@truserve.com>
> >
> >I'm on a deadline for SJG, so any ideas people have on this would be
> >appreciated.
> >
> >What does a K'Kree acceleration couch (chair) look like? You know,
> the
> >seats they sit in on the bridge of a ship...
> >
> >Any opinions on what would be best?
> 
> - -- 
> 
>    Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
>    Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
>    Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
>    University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
>                                       Rode the six hundred.
>    E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              Alfred, Lord Tennyson
> 
>    #include<stddisclaimer.h>
> 
>    My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typos, and poetic license
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of Traveller-digest V1999 #670
> **********************************
> 
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> 
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------------------------------

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 27 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 674



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
Artwork
A Vargr Werewolf in London (was Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters)
Re: A Vargr Werewolf in London (was Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters)
World Builder Deluxe
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #673
Re: Toys of the Far Future (was Re: A plea for cinematic restraint)
Re: FLGS in Harvard area
Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters
Aliens lines
Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Corporate Structure
Re: Burito Files [was Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero...]
First Survey
Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri (On Topic)
Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
Re: Burito Files
Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters
Re: Aliens lines
Re: Aliens lines
Re: Aliens lines 
Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:31:59 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Akins <igor@truserve.com>
To: TML <Traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, 26 May 1999 4:04
Subject: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...


>I'm on a deadline for SJG, so any ideas people have on this would be
>appreciated.
>
>What does a K'Kree acceleration couch (chair) look like? You know, the
seats
>they sit in on the bridge of a ship...
>
>Any opinions on what would be best?
>

Perhaps a bench that they straddle?  It could have a "back rest-like"
fitting that they back their rear-end up to, then "arm-rest-like" braces
that manually or automatically fold out from the bench (between the front
and back legs) that "braces" them from lateral movement, that may or maynot
have built-in controls/buttons/displays/etc.  I never imagined seatbelts on
a grave couch for some reason, so there would be no need to "buckle-up" with
one of these either?  Damn it!  Never had to think about it until now...
hope it helps??

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:44:17 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Artwork

Dear Glenn -

I was reading Behind the Claw yesterday, and I have a question: how do you
get the background of your pictures to be fuzzy, while the foreground is
sharp? (eg. the starport bar scene). Do you draw two pictures, scan in and
"fuzz" the background and then overlay the foreground?

The other question arises from "Dead Meat" in the FT book: do you have
captions for all your pictures?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:54:42 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: A Vargr Werewolf in London (was Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters)

Dear Folks -

Peez replied:
>>John Buston writes:
>>"There was a White Dwarf Traveller Scenario set in Victorian
>>England, can't remember its name or issue though."

>    Dr. Who anyone?

I think John means the one where the party is in London chasing a
(renegade?) Vargr, at the time of the Ripper killings. They have to avoid
undue attention of the local bobbies, at a time when *any* unusual activity
(even their own) is likely to be investigated. Is the Vargr the Ripper? Is
it someone else? Can the brave PC's find the Vargr before the police hunt
down the repoted "werewolf"? etc.

And no, I can't remember the issue number, either. Just that it was early.
Way before it became a lead miniatures catalog. Try asking Andy Slack (his
website is linked from my links page)!! Alternatively, there are a few
"Ultimate Guides to Traveller" on the 'Net that should list the article.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 21:04:44 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: A Vargr Werewolf in London (was Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au>
> And no, I can't remember the issue number, either. Just that it was early.
> Way before it became a lead miniatures catalog. Try asking Andy Slack (his
> website is linked from my links page)!! Alternatively, there are a few
> "Ultimate Guides to Traveller" on the 'Net that should list the article.

WD #62, Feb 1985


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SwordWorlder
http://www.downport.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 18:06:19 -0700
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: World Builder Deluxe

I"ve been trying to get a copy of World Builder Delux to install on my
PC, I'm running Win95 so that's not the problem, but it keeps giving me
error messages after a few seconds of installing.

Anyone know what's wrong?  Anyone else experiencing this problem?

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 18:13:53 -0700
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #673

Traveller-digest wrote:

> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:42:38 -0500
> From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
> Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #670 Need Diaspora Information
>
> Anyone having info on the Diaspora Sector (especially as it relates to
> the 2nd Solomani Rim War), I'd appreciate any files/info you have: send
> off-line to jeffg@ionstorm.com.
>
> Happy Travelling!
>
> THE LOCALIZER
> jeffg@ionstorm.com
>
> The price of greatness is responsibility. (Winston Churchill)

Jeff.

Do you have a copy of the MT Astrogator's Guide to Diaspora or the Hard Time's
adventure set in the Unity of Promise?  (Name eludes me)  Operation Vigilantie?
Or something like that.

Gimme a shout if you'd like to learn about these.

DS

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 21:42:06 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Toys of the Far Future (was Re: A plea for cinematic restraint)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 5:27 PM
Subject: Toys of the Far Future (was Re: A plea for cinematic restraint)


>What about the toys of non-humans?  OK, we all expect young Vargr and
>Aslan to play with chew toys (well, so do very young humans, I guess).


I think that Aslan would have quite violent toys for their male children.
Toy pouch pistols and the like would be quite popular. I would imagine that
many of their games would be extremely active and physical. Some of their
toys would help to instill in their young the Aslan honor system and their
distinct gender roles.

Young females would probably be indoctrinated with... er... rather play with
things that would heighten their sense of numeracy (am I using the word
properly there?). Play money might be popular, for example. Counting games
might get more complex as the female children age. Toy computers and such
might also be quite popular.

Young males would be video game addicts. They'd love the high-tech
equivlants of games like Quake and Robotron 2084. Fast-paced twitch style
games.

(I'm already getting a very cool image of an group of Aslan computer game
fanatics, like the kids who make mods for first person shooters. The females
in the group do the coding and stuff along those lines, while the males work
on the art).

Vargr pups would undoubtedly be *extremely* fad oriented. One visit into
Vargr territory would reveal a totally different universe of toys than
another visit a few months later. I'm imagining that the Vargr Extants would
be filled with young pups pulling on their mothers' arms screaming "Buy me
this! Buy me this!" Once a popular kid got a toy, all of the other kids
around would absolutely *need* to have the same toy... to an extent. The
backlash would be brutal as a new kid rockets to popularity with different
toys. In literally days, Vargr toys might be red-tagged to bargain basement
prices.

>Hivers don't pay attention to their juveniles, so have no toy culture.
>Do Ael Yael have lots of flying toys?  I think a merchant would do well
>selling frisbees to them.  K'Kree are basically mammalian, like humans,
>Vargr, and Aslan, so I'd expect to see some things that are pleasant to
>hold, but as they are vegetarians, probably won't have stuffed animals
>-- too much like holding a corpse.

I don't see why this would be the case. Baby dolls have been popular among
humans for ages. Despite the fact that dolls are often positively creepy,
they are still massively popular... and very few people liken them to the
corpses of babies, although they share similar characteristics to corpses.

>Droyne toys would be interesting.
>Many probably help the immature Droyne with casting.


It's possible, but I doubt it. I don't see the Droyne as a really big toy
culture. If anything, play would likely begin *after* they were casted.
Sports would be confronted with all manner of puzzles and various games of
skill and ingenuity, while other casts would be "trained" specifically
through the use of toys.

>The only canonical reference to toys that I can recall is the robot in
>Adventure 1: Annic Nova.  It had an IR sensor and would follow a
>character around.


Of course there's the Vilani, Zhodani and a host of minor human races that
would play in different ways with different toys.

I think that high-tech toys would be *vastly* popular among all starfaring
races.

I have a few toys on my website under the "Culture" section. The link is
below.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
Looking for other Traveller players in your area?
Looking to run a PBEM game? Check out:
http://www.pil.net/~semo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:52:44 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: FLGS in Harvard area

> From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
 
> Also down Mass Ave. just across the bridge going into Boston is the "The
> Complete Strategist".  At least it used to be there.

It was there last October.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 18:34:08 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters

> From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>

> ObTrav (sort of): the challenge in using the players themselves as PCs
> in a Traveller game is how to get the characters to jump forward in time
> nearly 3500 years to the time of the Imperium...  :)

It's sort of a Rip van Winkle thing.  You're visiting the Great Pyramid,
get lost inside, fall asleep, and when you awake, you are in an auto-doc
in Cairo Arcopolis.  Or maybe you are driving in the Nevada desert to
meet a confidential informant when you are stopped by military
vehicles.  As you present your identification to the unpleasant, heavily
armed men wearing camouflage uniforms without insignia, a bright light
passes from east to west across the sky.  You feel queasy, but you're
not sure if it's the light or the presence of all of that firepower
without accountability.  They let you go and you turn back, but the road
is all bumpy and overgrown now.  Later you meet the bewildered Area 51
perimeter team in the ghost town that used to be Lovelock, wondering
what happened to all of the roads and what are all of those little boxy
things flying silently overhead?

> Turning this around: has anyone reading this ever run (or been in) a
> scenario in which the Imperium-era PCs wound up travelling back in time
> to present-day Earth?

I haven't done that, but in my Traveller universe, the Roswell incident
involved a Vilani ship.  I haven't decided whom to blame for Tunguska. 
Vilani? Hivers? Droyne?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 18:42:07 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Aliens lines

> From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
> Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint
> 
> >>Well, how about Alien? Wasn't that made in 1977 or so? 
> 
> Coincidentally, it was released 25 years ago from today.

20 years ago today ... certainly not 25.  It was released in 1979.  I
remember it well as the only movie that my then-girlfriend stayed awake
all the way through.  (She said that movies and tv sort of hypnotized
her and she fell right to sleep.)

> "Hey lieutenant, is this another bug-hunt ?"
> "There may be a xenomorph involved."
> "It's a bug hunt."

I think it's more like:
"Hey Lieutenant, are we seeing real action against an opposing army, or
is this just another bug hunt?"
"There may be a xenomorph involved."
"A what?"
"A xenomorph, an alien life form."
[chorus] "Bug hunt!"

Of course, my favorite line isn't suitable for a family mailing list. 
It's the exchange between Vasquez and I think Hicks that ends, "Anywhere
anytime!"

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 22:01:58 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

- -----Original Message-----
From: AveNelso@aol.com <AveNelso@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)


>The biggest difference between Traveller and Movie/TV stories is that
>Traveller characters are actually interested in making a living, earning
>money and actually get to but stuff they can use later with that money.

>Money is just a "maguffin" in movies and rarely ever comes up in Sci-Fi
>movies.    I mean, even though Han Solo got his reward money at one point,
he
>didn't actually get to pay off Jabba or buy anything for use in the later
>movies.


I disagree, and this is the kind of nagging mercenary mindset that alot of
folks still associate with Traveller and old school Dungeons & Dragons (and
roleplaying in general).

I'm not fond of using money as a scorecard in my roleplaying games. It
usually works better as a McGuffin than anything else, at least in my
opinion. Cash counting just seems so mundane in a world of science-fiction
adventure. In my opinion money works best when its general and vague to some
extent. I don't like to keep track of every purchase my PCs make (well, you
took the informant out for dinner, and that was a total of Cr120 plus a 20%
gratuity), and I don't expect them to do it either.

Then again, my players seem to enjoy adventure and excitement more than the
monetary rewards they receive as a result.

I also try to be inventive with rewards as well. When my players worked for
InterstellArms, they often received as much as 80% of their payment in
stocks. I kept track of the growth and decline of the stocks behind the
scenes. Sometimes they'd get paid in material, maybe a prototype piece of
equipment, a laser turret for their scout, stuff like that.

My players seem to find that information is just about the best reward.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 22:17:24 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Corporate Structure

>What I meant was that at current TL, the town where I work only
>has *one* "Works" for about 170,000 people. Improved automation
>means that very few workplaces would qualify as bigger than a
>"Site" (more machines but fewer people).

>Go back two TL and a population of 100,000 might have perhaps
>half a dozen "Works".

>I think you need something larger than "Works", eg "Major Works"
>which employs more than 10,000 people in one place. This is the
>size that is at the one per million people rate at current TL.

  OK, one or two works per million probably is too few: make it
on the order of one per hundred thousand or so. I probably do
need the "major works" category.
  I don't have my demographic information at hand, but the county
where I live has about 250 thousand population, and between one
and three employers that qualify as "works".  The local
university employs over 10,000 people, but over half of them are
part-time student help.  Reduce that to full time equivalents and
it just misses being a major works.  The local steel mill could
still qualify as a works, since it had over 2000 employees before it 
laid off 30% of its workforce this last year.
   Improved technology will probably reduce the number of people
and the size of plants or works of any given type, but this may
be countered by the tendency to create new types for the more
complex equipment and systems introduced at the higher TL.
  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 22:24:58 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Burito Files [was Re: Spear Carriers and Joe Genero...]

> "C. Michael (Swordy)" wrote:
> 
> Speaking of Joe Genero, whatever happened to the Burito Files?
> 
> Actually, that was a rhetorical question.  They are at the address
> below, but they are somewhat incomplete.  I'd really like to get some
> more of them.  There have been lots of these generic NPCs bandied
> about on the list.  Rob Eaglestone culled quite a few for the
> collection, but I _know_ that there are many more close at hand.  Slip
> me a few when you think of it.  Or toss them out on the list and I'll
> harvest :-)
> 
> http://www.downport.com/eaglestone
> 

I got nothing on the referred page, just a blank.

- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 22:17:29 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: First Survey

OK, I've seen this briefly on the list two or three times and never
followed it up. One more time, please.  I'm sure the problems with First
Survey were discussed back when it appeared, but I wasn't on the TML at the
time, and I missed whatever discussion there was on making the best of it. 
I understand there was a bug in the computer program used to backdate
M:1100 information to M:0, but that's about all I know about either one of
those.  I've also seen mention of a corrected version, but my browser timed
out when I tried to DL a 335K text file from the Missouri Archive.  Is
there a .zip file somewhere?

 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 99 21:55:12 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

On 05/26/99 at 01:57 PM,  Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk> said:

>Would they have any need ? they went from nothing to Gravatics,
>missed out chemical rockets, no need for acceleration couches ...
>just backup systems.

>Would you have a bridge on a K'Kree ship ? the less enclosures the
>better, you might have a bridge area in the main enclosure, but you
>would have to have room for all the ontorage to come with the pilot.

>K'Kree are hearding wide open spaces sophants, if it dosn't look like
>a nice parsture with nice skies they arn't going to stay there for
>time it takes to jump.

I think you are right. 

Put the control area in the center of the big domed ship, surrounded
by simulated pasture land, with several couches for the "bridge
crew" to kneel on, and control units built into simulated rocks and
bushes.  The rest of the herd can wander in and out of the area and
keeping the crew company.  I suspect they'd put a "water hole" in
that area too.  

Standing in this control area would look like you were standing in
the middle of a pasture surrounded by hills or plains.  It would
look nothing like the inside of a human/vargr or even aslan ship.

Don't you picture a K'Kree ship that way? ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 22:05:02 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri (On Topic)

Have any of you played "Alpha Centauri" yet?  I installed the game on my
machine yesterday, and...WOW!

The on-topic portion of this post:

The manual that comes with the game includes, in Appendix 5, a detailed
description of the astronomy, planetology, and biology of the game world
Planet (Alpha Centauri A's primary world, Chiron), in details that would
make owners of Book 6 blush.

Even those TMLers who don't play turn-based strategy computer games
should try to read this description....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 19:51:09 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

> From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@truserve.com>
> Subject: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

> What does a K'Kree acceleration couch (chair) look like? You know, the
> seats they sit in on the bridge of a ship...

What makes you think they sit at all?  I think the K'Kree spend
virtually their entire lives standing, except when rolling on their
backs for exercise or to relax those muscles.  So they wouldn't have
acceleration couches at all.  Rather, they would have very good gravitic
compensators to make sure they didn't feel any acceleration.  

They might have pads under their bodies on which they could rest to take
some weight off their legs.

I think the same would be true of the Virushi.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:16:44 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Burito Files

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BEA7CD.D1D9D1C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="koi8-r"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<sigh> Had a rather tough time with ftp tonight.  Hopefully _that_ =
silliness is over.  The whole file is there now.

http://www.downport.com/eaglestone/burito.html=20


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SwordWorlder
http://www.downport.com


- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
> I got nothing on the referred page, just a blank.

- ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BEA7CD.D1D9D1C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="koi8-r"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dkoi8-r" http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY background=3D"" bgColor=3D#ffffff><FONT face=3DArial>&lt;sigh&gt; =
Had a rather=20
tough time with ftp tonight.&nbsp; Hopefully _that_ silliness is =
over.&nbsp; The=20
whole file is there now.<BR><BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.downport.com/eaglestone/burito.html">http://www.downpo=
rt.com/eaglestone/burito.html</A>=20
<BR><BR><BR>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>SwordWorlder<BR>http://www.downp=
ort.com<BR><BR><BR>-----=20
Original Message ----- <BR>From: Jory Earl =
&lt;j-man@iname.com&gt;<BR>&gt; I got=20
nothing on the referred page, just a blank.</FONT></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BEA7CD.D1D9D1C0--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:44:38 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters

In a message dated 5/26/99 9:55:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gmgoffin@pacbell.net writes:

<< 
 > ObTrav (sort of): the challenge in using the players themselves as PCs
 > in a Traveller game is how to get the characters to jump forward in time
 > nearly 3500 years to the time of the Imperium...  :)
 
 It's sort of a Rip van Winkle thing.  You're visiting the Great Pyramid,
 get lost inside, fall asleep, and when you awake, you are in an auto-doc
 in Cairo Arcopolis. >>

	The plot of Isaac Asimov's "Pebble in the Sky" has an ordinary person 
thrown into a far future as a result some scientific experiment gone awry.  
He merely crosses a stray beam from the experiment and finds himself in a 
future Earth.   The result is very Traveller, of course, since Asimov's 
Galactic Empire must have been one of the inspirations for the Imperium.  

Dave Nelson 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 22:44:31 -0500
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org>
Subject: Re: Aliens lines

At 06:42 PM 5/26/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>> "Hey lieutenant, is this another bug-hunt ?"
>> "There may be a xenomorph involved."
>> "It's a bug hunt."
>
>I think it's more like:
>"Hey Lieutenant, are we seeing real action against an opposing army, or
>is this just another bug hunt?"
>"There may be a xenomorph involved."
>"A what?"
>"A xenomorph, an alien life form."
>[chorus] "Bug hunt!"
>


Hudson: Is this going to be a stand up fight, sir, or another bug hunt?

Gorman: All we know is that there's still no contact with the Colony, and
that a xenomorph may be involoved.

Frost: Excuse me, Sir. A what?

Gorman: A xenomorph...

Hicks: It's a bug hunt.


Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com
ICQ# 33152095

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 22:21:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Aliens lines

On Wed, 26 May 1999, Richard Wilson wrote:

> Hicks: It's a bug hunt.

Did anyone else take this as a reference to Heinlein's Starship Troopers
when they heard it?

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 01:30:56 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Aliens lines 

> On Wed, 26 May 1999, Richard Wilson wrote:
> 
> > Hicks: It's a bug hunt.
> 
> Did anyone else take this as a reference to Heinlein's Starship Troopers
> when they heard it?

Of course.  Didn't *everybody*?

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 01:32:19 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters

In a message dated 99-05-26 23:48:38 EDT, you write:

<<  > ObTrav (sort of): the challenge in using the players themselves as PCs
  > in a Traveller game is how to get the characters to jump forward in time
  > nearly 3500 years to the time of the Imperium...  :)
   >>
The idea about a 3I group geting thrown back to our time perduces a lot of 
interesting ideas, what would the goverment do about them? what if they were 
criminals?  How would 3I find them?  Would there be something like the TSA to 
hunt them down?  What would the tech be like?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #674
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 27 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 675



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Aliens lines 
Re: Aliens lines 
Re: A Vargr Werewolf in London (was Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters)
Re: Turnover of Imperial Companies
Re: Aliens lines 
Re: Toys of the Far Future
Re: "Traveller"-like Movies
Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters
Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Artwork
Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
Re: no one plays CT anymore 
Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Aliens lines 
Re: Filthy Lucre (was "Traveller"-like Movies)
Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters
RE: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
System Maps?
Time Traveller...
Re: Aliens quotes 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 22:35:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Aliens lines 

On Thu, 27 May 1999, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> > > Hicks: It's a bug hunt.
> > 
> > Did anyone else take this as a reference to Heinlein's Starship Troopers
> > when they heard it?
> 
> Of course.  Didn't *everybody*?

At the time Aliens came out *most* of the audience had never *heard* of
Starship Troopers, so I wondered what they might have thought this line
meant.

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 01:40:19 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Aliens lines 

> On Thu, 27 May 1999, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > > > Hicks: It's a bug hunt.
> > > 
> > > Did anyone else take this as a reference to Heinlein's Starship Troopers
> > > when they heard it?
> > 
> > Of course.  Didn't *everybody*?
> 
> At the time Aliens came out *most* of the audience had never *heard* of
> Starship Troopers, so I wondered what they might have thought this line
> meant.

I *read* it long before Aliens was ever shot.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 01:47:33 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A Vargr Werewolf in London (was Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters)

In a message dated 99-05-26 21:00:57 EDT, you write:

<< I think John means the one where the party is in London chasing a
 (renegade?) Vargr, at the time of the Ripper killings. They have to avoid
 undue attention of the local bobbies, at a time when *any* unusual activity
 (even their own) is likely to be investigated. Is the Vargr the Ripper? Is
 it someone else? Can the brave PC's find the Vargr before the police hunt
 down the repoted "werewolf"? etc.
 
 And no, I can't remember the issue number, either. Just that it was early.
 Way before it became a lead miniatures catalog. Try asking Andy Slack (his
 website is linked from my links page)!! Alternatively, there are a few
 "Ultimate Guides to Traveller" on the 'Net that should list the article. >>

What was the time travel device?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 00:48:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Turnover of Imperial Companies

On 05/25/99 18:30:34 John Wood wrote:
>
>Anyone care to make a guesstimate of the MCr turnover of Imperial
>corporations, large and small? For example, Jamison Factors, Oberlindes,
>Tukera, Makhidkarun?
>
>I'm just trying to get a handle on what are sensible values (order of
>magnitude accuracy is fine).

	All the turn-over figures I'm aware of are ratios (eg. sales/inventory).  I'm guessing 
what you really mean is revenue, which is how much money a company takes in.  In that case, I'd 
imagine that a sector-wide shipping company could easily have revenue on the order of MCr1,000s.  
If you look at the expenses for an average freighter(~3,000dtons) and multiply that times the 
dozens of ships (at least) such a company would have MCr1,000s seems reasonable.  Really big 
companies could be several orders of magnitudes larger than this and for megacorps the sky is 
the limit.
	Note that this money will be tied up in on-going business concerns and spread all over so 
the resources a company could muster locally on short notice could be much more limited.  This 
is a good thing because it means that they might be desperate enough to do something like hire 
PCs or might not have the resources immediately available to crush the PCs like the bugs they 
are :-)


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 02:59:10 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Aliens lines 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Brannon W. Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, May 27, 1999 1:36 AM
Subject: Re: Aliens lines


>On Thu, 27 May 1999, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
>
>> > > Hicks: It's a bug hunt.
>> >
>> > Did anyone else take this as a reference to Heinlein's Starship
Troopers
>> > when they heard it?
>>
>> Of course.  Didn't *everybody*?
>
>At the time Aliens came out *most* of the audience had never *heard* of
>Starship Troopers, so I wondered what they might have thought this line
>meant.


Wow. I'm actually qualified to answer this one. When I saw Aliens I had
heard of the book Starship Troopers, but pretty much only knew it introduced
powered armor into the science-fiction world. I knew nothing of bugs or
other creatures.

However, when I heard the line, I imagined that the Colonial Marines were
frequently called out to protect colonists from all manner of different
nasty situations. I figured that sometimes they'd fight armed insurgents who
were rising up against corporate oppression. However, I figured that most of
the time they'd be whisked across space to hunt down some sort of dangerous
or semi-dangerous critters that happened to be menacing local colonists.
These "xenomorphs," no matter how dangerous, were never a match for them in
anyy way.

Whenever I hear that line, I still imagine the marines slogging through
dense jungle cursing the candy-assed colonists while looking for a dragonfly
with a wingspan of a meter or so. I imagined when they asked if it would be
a stand-up fight, they were thinking more of guerillas and such.

I'm not sure that it works as a Starship Troopers reference because...
well... Heinlein's bugs are pretty damned dangerous and would probably fall
into the stand-up fight category. Of course, your own mileage may vary.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 00:00:32 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Toys of the Far Future

> From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
> Subject: Re: Toys of the Far Future (was Re: A plea for cinematic
> restraint)
> 
> - -----Original Message-----
> From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>

> >Hivers don't pay attention to their juveniles, so have no toy culture.
> >Do Ael Yael have lots of flying toys?  I think a merchant would do well
> >selling frisbees to them.  K'Kree are basically mammalian, like humans,
> >Vargr, and Aslan, so I'd expect to see some things that are pleasant to
> >hold, but as they are vegetarians, probably won't have stuffed animals
> >-- too much like holding a corpse.
> 
> I don't see why this would be the case. Baby dolls have been popular among
> humans for ages. Despite the fact that dolls are often positively creepy,
> they are still massively popular... and very few people liken them to the
> corpses of babies, although they share similar characteristics to corpses.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear.  The K'Kree, being extreme vegetarians,
might find stuffed animals and dolls too corpselike and creepy.  Vargr
and Aslan and other carnivorous or omnivorous mammalians would probably
have dolls and stuffed animals, which are pleasant for a juvenile to
hold.

I'll have to check out your web site.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 00:09:45 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies

> From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
> Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
> 
> - -----Original Message-----
> From: AveNelso@aol.com <AveNelso@aol.com>
[deletion]
> >The biggest difference between Traveller and Movie/TV stories is that
> >Traveller characters are actually interested in making a living, earning
[deletion] 
> I'm not fond of using money as a scorecard in my roleplaying games. It
> usually works better as a McGuffin than anything else, at least in my
> opinion. Cash counting just seems so mundane in a world of science-fiction
> adventure. In my opinion money works best when its general and vague to
> some extent. I don't like to keep track of every purchase my PCs make (well, you
> took the informant out for dinner, and that was a total of Cr120 plus a 20%
> gratuity), and I don't expect them to do it either.
[deletion]

Money details can sometimes add a lot of atmosphere and opportunities
for role-playing, but I don't find money itself to be a good reward for
players.  Rather, Chris's statement seems in general to hold true for my
players (or myself as a player):

> My players seem to find that information is just about the best reward.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 03:45:45 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters

In a message dated 99-05-24 22:50:02 EDT, you write:

<< > It's pretty easy to sit down and convert the PCs into Traveller 
characters.
 (snip) >>

Do you have a system for converting PC to traveller stats and skills?  I know 
that I have Int 10 (based on Int 7 = IQ 100[14 IQ per level) and a few other 
ruff ideas.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 03:49:40 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

In a message dated 99-05-24 14:45:11 EDT, you write:

<< As a referee, my favorite line from a sci fi movie: "Apology accepted,
 Captain Needa."

xxxxx
Were is that line from?
xxxxx
 
 The evil emperor Lucan often used a line similar to this in a Star Warsish
 Megatraveller game I ran some while ago now (Star Wars: The Shattered
 Imperium). After seeing TPM, I am certain this is to be the next type of
 game I'll run. After the upcoming Morrow Project: Reign of Steel campaign I
 have planned, that is. A MARS team on an Earth ruled by robots -- woo hoo!
 
 OT: Is there a living Morrow Project mailing list somewhere? >>

What is MARS (other than the planet)?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 04:10:50 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Re: Artwork

David,

>I was reading Behind the Claw yesterday, and I have a question: how do you
>get the background of your pictures to be fuzzy, while the foreground is
>sharp? (eg. the starport bar scene). Do you draw two pictures, scan in and
>"fuzz" the background and then overlay the foreground?

Yep, all my illustrations are drawn in ink on paper, then scanned and
manipulated in Photoshop on my trusty Mac. In the case of the starport bar,
I planned from the outset to fuzz the background, so to simplify things I
drew it separately. I selected the window areas, pasted in the background,
then used the Gaussian Blur filter to make it seem out of focus. I also use
Photoshop to clean up the inks, overlay a haze of smoke, put in lens
flares, gradiant fills, or whatever other effects I need. When the illos
are finished, I send 'em to Loren by e-mail.

I'd only begun using Photoshop on my illustrations with these GURPS books,
so I was still learning new tricks with Behind the Claw. The bar picture is
a particularly elaborate case of Photoshopping: the three Vargr were also
drawn as a separate element and dropped over the rest; the middle distance
is just slightly blurred while the far distance (outside the windows) is
blurred more; the "Iskendur's Red Zone" sign was drawn black-on-white but
then Reversed and blurred (to make it glow like neon); the text on the
video screens is actual text -- dropped in and distorted to give it the
proper perspective -- listing departures for various systems in the Regina
subsector(!); and the Vargr's Imperial Sunburst insignia were dropped in as
well.

I used tons of Photoshopped text in the first G:T book. The 'holographic
display' text, various computer screens, the security doors behind the
Naval Guards. I actually created two "alien" typefaces just for this
purpose -- actually I simply took two existing fonts into Fontographer,
then chopped up and modified each letter (one of the fonts was originally
Crillee, the "ST:NG" font;). If you're really crazy, you can take a
magnifying glass and try to transliterate those screens -- they're mostly
full of lyrics from various punk songs that happened to be on my CD player
while I was drawing ;) Bits of Buzzcocks, Ramones, and NoMeansNo lyrics, to
be precise.

Sometimes I use Photoshop to move, flip, rotate, stretch, or re-size parts
of a drawing, or even re-draw whole figures -- much easier now that I have
a Wacom ArtPad tablet and stylus. Incredibly, the drawings in G:T, BTC, and
Alien Races 1 were all Photoshopped using the mouse!

>The other question arises from "Dead Meat" in the FT book: do you have
>captions for all your pictures?

Did they put that caption under it? (I still don't have my copies of the
book! Loren has been slow getting my copies to me, and recently a courier
shipment disappeared en route...)

All of my illos have filenames, of course, and the
butcher-with-K'kree-warrior drawing happened to be called "Dead Meat".  I
have a pretty free hand to make up subjects for illos. So naturally I'm
drawing lots of gags. "Dead Meat" is a favourite, and I'm very happy with a
couple from First In.

Thanks for paying such close attention to my work!

 + GMG +

          Glenn Grant
         neo@total.net
    "Hell is Other Robots."
- - Robot Hell Brochure, Futurama

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 04:11:01 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

Glenn M. Goffin sez,

>> From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@truserve.com>
>> What does a K'Kree acceleration couch (chair) look like? You know, the
>> seats they sit in on the bridge of a ship...
>
>What makes you think they sit at all?

The first published W. Keith picture of the K'kree (in JTAS #_?) shows a
K'kree Leader and his Scribe, both sitting on bench-shaped couches,
surrounded by (standing) guards and servants.

Best,

 + GMG +

               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net>
   "How come if we can send a man to the Moon, we can't
             send a man to the Moon anymore?"
           --Cmdr Rick, _Prisoners of Gravity_

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 04:55:36 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: no one plays CT anymore 

> >IIRC, Pebble was *also* a hollow rock.  Mebbe not the best choice for a
> boat that has to land...
> 
> I have the ROCK and Pebble plans available on my site.  See:
> http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Rock.html
> http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/CC2.html

A nice set of deckplans, Paul.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:37:42 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

At 03:49 27/05/1999 EDT, SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 99-05-24 14:45:11 EDT, you write:
>
><< As a referee, my favorite line from a sci fi movie: "Apology accepted,
> Captain Needa."
>
>xxxxx
>Were is that line from?

A tall, dark stranger with a breathing problem?

I think it is just after the Millenium Falcon clamps itself to the
Star Destroyer and the Imperials can't find it.

The Star Destroyer's captain mutters something about small ships not
having a cloacking device and DV decides the second in command needs
a development opportunity.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:07:59 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

At 22:01 26/05/1999 -0400, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: AveNelso@aol.com <AveNelso@aol.com>
>To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Date: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 4:54 PM
>Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
>
>
>>The biggest difference between Traveller and Movie/TV stories is that
>>Traveller characters are actually interested in making a living, earning
>>money and actually get to but stuff they can use later with that money.
>
>>Money is just a "maguffin" in movies and rarely ever comes up in Sci-Fi
>>movies.    I mean, even though Han Solo got his reward money at one point,
>he
>>didn't actually get to pay off Jabba or buy anything for use in the later
>>movies.
>
>
>I disagree, and this is the kind of nagging mercenary mindset that alot of
>folks still associate with Traveller and old school Dungeons & Dragons (and
>roleplaying in general).

I disagree with your disagree.

The point is that a "proper" Traveller PC group would use the money
to upgrade their ship's computer, replace the laser turrret with
dual fusion beams and buy FGMP-15s.

Then they'd go and "Nuke" Jabba.

It's not like D&D where you need the cash for experience, so the PCs
either hand it over to buy training or go to sleep on piles of the stuff.

In Traveller, you either need the money to pay the bills, or to buy
the nice toys that make the next adventure so dangerous...
to NPCs and the infrastructure. :-)

Personally, I like the Shadowrun system, where you have a lifestyle cost
(eg cross off 5k each month or eventually you get kicked out of your
 apartment, your car reposessed and your middle class friends stop talking
 to you.)
That way you don't have to keep track of every can of soft drink they buy
from the local store.

However, finding the money to replace a broken jump drive...

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:16:28 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Aliens lines 

In a message dated 5/27/99 3:04:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, semo@pil.net 
writes:

<< These "xenomorphs," no matter how dangerous, were never a match for them in
 anyy way. >>

	It's funny, but I thought that they used "bug hunt" as a synonym for 
"wild goose chase", i.e., everytime they had gone on a "bug hunt" there 
turned out to be no real "bug" to hunt.  That's why they were really 
surprised by finding real "bugs" this time.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:33:50 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Filthy Lucre (was "Traveller"-like Movies)

In a message dated 5/27/99 3:20:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gmgoffin@pacbell.net writes:

<< Money details can sometimes add a lot of atmosphere and opportunities
 for role-playing, but I don't find money itself to be a good reward for
 players.  Rather, Chris's statement seems in general to hold true for my
 players (or myself as a player):
  >>

	My point was rather, that they can actually BUY something with the 
money.  If you give them money and take it away or don't let them buy 
anything, then it isn't a motivator.    If you play a Star Trek style game 
with everyone in active service in the Navy or Scouts, then no money is not 
going to have much impact, but yuck, who needs that.
	As Steve jackson games has pointed out, the two most popular sorts of 
Traveller campaigns are MERChants and MERCenaries (notice the same root, 
refering to comMERCe).   To me both of these .games are interesting because 
the players do actually have to make a living, watch their expenses, plan 
ahead in order to make the bank payments, or improve the quality of their 
unit equipment and recruits.  Money isn't the goal, but is the measure used 
for them to move their enterprise along.   These sort of games are to me what 
separates Traveller from other RPG's and what I find appealing about the 
game. (I mean we don't know how expensive the Starship Enterprise is, but we 
sure know the bank payment on a Beowulf free trader).
	While in D&D players end up with huge piles of cash lying around, 
without much for them to buy, in Traveller you can never have too much money. 
 There is always an improvement to the ship, new set of combat armor for the 
third squad etc, that's just out of reach.   This again, is different than 
most movies and TV shows, where the underlying infrastructure (redundant, 
can't have an overlying infrastructure or underlying super structure) remains 
the same.  Most of the time if something changes in a show or movie, it's 
serves a cute plot point or cast change, not as an actual developement of  
the action.

			Dave Nelson
	Money don't buy everything it's true,
	but what it can't buy I can't use.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:53:56 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters

The T5 playtest stuff going around has a pretty good "test" to help you
determine your own (or anyone else's) UPP.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SwordWorlder
http://www.downport.com


- ----- Original Message -----
From: <SRKOALA@aol.com>
> Do you have a system for converting PC to traveller stats and skills?  I
know
> that I have Int 10 (based on Int 7 = IQ 100[14 IQ per level) and a few
other
> ruff ideas.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:57:50 -0400
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: RE: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

After discussing with my game group, I came up with the idea of reverse
couches.  The decks would be inverted to the thrust.  An L type couch to
support the back and spine of the K'Kree.  They would stand on the floor but
be supported from above.  Since the thrust would push them into the support,
it puts them in the same type position as our couches.  Of course the
airlocks would now have to be made to rotate 180 degrees so that while on
the ground one would be able to go from normal orientation to upside down.
Since there's grav plates, it doesn't matter what orientation the floors
are.  The ship would probably not have any windows so as to not cause
confusion on planetside.

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	David P. Summers [mailto:summers@alum.mit.edu]
		Sent:	Wednesday, May 26, 1999 7:48 PM
		To:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
		Subject:	Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

		>Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:54:01 -0500
		>From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>

		>With K'kree, if the push of acceleration is from the floor
and they're
		>lying
		>belly-down on a cradle, this would be the equivalent, in
terms of
		>acceleration affects, of a human lying perpendicular to a
jet's
		>acceleration
		>while facing backwards. The soft abdominal organs will be
between the
		>force of acceleration and the spine.
		>
		>As for what effects this may have on these organs, I'm
clueless but
		>having
		>one's abdomen crushed between a couch surface and one's
spine can't be
		>comfortable. Any medical/physics specialists out there what
to expand on
		>this?

		The weight of bone is that much more.  The weight pressing
down on
		the organs at the bottom shouldn't be much more than the
other way
		around.  Though our breathing moves in an out the front so
there
		is an issue about having a low acceleration cutoff before
you can't
		breath.  However, I think lack of blood to the brain is the
main
		issue.  I would think that the couch would just have to be
well
		designed to support the soft underbelly evenly (and there
isn't
		much you can do unless you put the K'Kree on their backs and
they
		would _love_ that...  :-)
		______________________________
		summers@alum.mit.edu
		(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but
I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:00:28 -0500
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: System Maps?

I've begun detailing some systems for my campaign, an alternative to jumping 
around the subsector all the time. 

What I'm wondering, is if there are any good system mapping forms out there.  
I like the format presented in Gateway! - Adventure two by Imperium Games.  
But, I thought I'd see if there were any other options as well.


 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:36:19 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Time Traveller...

- -----Original Message-----
From: SRKOALA@aol.com <SRKOALA@aol.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, 27 May 1999 3:37
Subject: Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters


>In a message dated 99-05-26 23:48:38 EDT, you write:
>
><<  > ObTrav (sort of): the challenge in using the players themselves as
PCs
>  > in a Traveller game is how to get the characters to jump forward in
time
>  > nearly 3500 years to the time of the Imperium...  :)
>   >>
>The idea about a 3I group geting thrown back to our time perduces a lot of
>interesting ideas, what would the goverment do about them? what if they
were
>criminals?  How would 3I find them?  Would there be something like the TSA
to
>hunt them down?  What would the tech be like?
>-Stephen
>

There was also an adventure in a mag (Spacegamer?  White Dwarf?) where a
crew and their ship wound up in Germany of WWII, and the crew needed to get
it's hands on the German heavy water to escape back home somewhere...  I saw
this in a mag in a game shop and didn't have the cash on me at the time, I
returned a couple of days later and it was gone, so I don't even know the
full plot -- but damn it looked hot and it's presentation looked excellent!

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:44:52 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Aliens quotes 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, 27 May 1999 5:08
Subject: Re: Aliens lines


>
>
>Wow. I'm actually qualified to answer this one. When I saw Aliens I had
>heard of the book Starship Troopers, but pretty much only knew it
introduced
>powered armor into the science-fiction world. I knew nothing of bugs or
>other creatures.
>
>However, when I heard the line, I imagined that the Colonial Marines were
>frequently called out to protect colonists from all manner of different
>nasty situations. I figured that sometimes they'd fight armed insurgents
who
>were rising up against corporate oppression. However, I figured that most
of
>the time they'd be whisked across space to hunt down some sort of dangerous
>or semi-dangerous critters that happened to be menacing local colonists.
>These "xenomorphs," no matter how dangerous, were never a match for them in
>anyy way.
>
>Whenever I hear that line, I still imagine the marines slogging through
>dense jungle cursing the candy-assed colonists while looking for a
dragonfly
>with a wingspan of a meter or so. I imagined when they asked if it would be
>a stand-up fight, they were thinking more of guerillas and such.
>
>I'm not sure that it works as a Starship Troopers reference because...
>well... Heinlein's bugs are pretty damned dangerous and would probably fall
>into the stand-up fight category. Of course, your own mileage may vary.
>

This is pretty much the take I had on the reference too, thanks, you put it
into the words I couldn't scratch-up.  Using 20-20 hindsight, I can see a
kind of reference to the ST bugs, but as you say, these bugs (the ST ones)
are not the kind one would snidely remark "It's a bug hunt" about IMHO...
I'd go as far as saying, if it were a reference to ST, that the quote should
have been, "Bug hunt!  Oh f@#k ME!!!!!"  :^)

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #675
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 27 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 676



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Time Traveller...
Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit
RE: Aliens lines 
Re: Time Traveller...
Re: FLGS in Harvard area
Re: Toys of the far future
Re: Filthy Lucre
Intro for new players
Re: A Vargr Werewolf in London
Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Aliens lines 
RE: Missle acceleration
Re: Intro for new players
Re: Filthy Lucre
Money in Traveller (was Re: Filthy Lucre)
Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Rob Casewell!
Re: Burito Files
Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters
RE: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
RE: Intro for new players
Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:44:25 +0100
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Time Traveller...

The Roc wrote:

> There was also an adventure in a mag (Spacegamer?  White Dwarf?) where a
> crew and their ship wound up in Germany of WWII, and the crew needed to get
> it's hands on the German heavy water to escape back home somewhere...  I saw
> this in a mag in a game shop and didn't have the cash on me at the time, I
> returned a couple of days later and it was gone, so I don't even know the
> full plot -- but damn it looked hot and it's presentation looked excellent!
> 
> --  The Roc

White Dwarf again, number in the high thirties. Non standard Traveller
universe, with strange alians one of which is adicted to a naturaly occuring
eath gas, clorien IIRC.

I think it was called Green Horizon, but I am not sure.

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typos, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:40:17 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit

>From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit
>>. It could be errata'd ... but a better idea
>> is
>> for someone to achieve Guru status by actually doing it for the
>> Spinward
>> Marches *grin*. Me, I say 'Mixon et Frere' is a great name for a
>> not-quite-megacorp ...
>
>I don't think it is THAT grand but I have some hopes of making 
>a lasting contibution. 

Do it, and I can promise you that you can name your nominees to any
Imperial trade or economics position you want. If you want Terak Mixon to
be the founder of the Imperial Credit, the secret power behind the rise of
the Third Imperium, we can do this ... 

>> OK, this is the way I'd deal with this. You start from top-down, not
>> from
>> bottom up. The 2 7.5s dont round to an eight, so the rest never
>> occours -
>> unless you want to use the exemption on the top of p19 to give it
>> one. You
>> have to have a route to make a bigger one, and if it's smaller than
>> BTN 8,
>> it isnt a route ... I'd also rule that 'exemption' minor routes and
>> 'combination' routes dont count for three-into-a-bigger route.
>
>I like that. That works for me.
> 

Good.

>> Get a big map of the Marches, with starports, trade codes and WTNs on
>> each world, and x-boat routes inked in.
>
>Done. A combo of a photoshop map with the jump routes and a database 
>of the trade information.

Cool. Can you scan it and put it on the web ?

>
>> Every time you calculate a route, type it into a datbase.
>
>Doing that. It will keep track of from world to world for each 
>hop along the way.

Excellent.

>
>> Start with Mora, and link it to the Golden Worlds - Lunion, Strouden,
>> Glisten, Porozolo, Rhylanor and Trin.
>> 
>> Given you are connecting a 6.5 system to a bunch of 6.0s, we have
>> Major
>> Routes for everything 29 parsecs or less, and Feeder Routes for the
>> rest.
>
>Good point. I have the Cronor subsector done and am ready to move 
>on to it.

Have you mailed SJ Games and/or Marc Miller yet ? I am filling out the
approval for your application to the Imperial Ministry of Commerce Central
Financial Committee (your signature is on the form, so you must have signed
it, comrade).

> 
>This is a good plan of attack. Thanks for the advice on that. 
>I feel energized. <g>
> 
>Thanks. I will keep the list posted and possibly post an intirim 
>jpg on my web site so folks can see how things are progessing.

Whats the URL ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:57:23 -0500
From: "Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com>
Subject: RE: Aliens lines 

>	It's funny, but I thought that they used "bug hunt" as a synonym for

>"wild goose chase", i.e., everytime they had gone on a "bug hunt" there 

That's the way I understood it.  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:08:13 -0500
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Time Traveller...

>There was also an adventure in a mag (Spacegamer?  White Dwarf?) where a
>crew and their ship wound up in Germany of WWII, and the crew needed to get
>it's hands on the German heavy water to escape back home somewhere...  I saw
>this in a mag in a game shop and didn't have the cash on me at the time, I
>returned a couple of days later and it was gone, so I don't even know the
>full plot -- but damn it looked hot and it's presentation looked excellent!
>
>--  The Roc

The PCs in the adventure where aliens and looked like gnomes of Norse myth.
The heavy water (Deuterium for the p-plant?) was of course up in the
Telemarken where it was being readied for transport to the German atomic
bomb program. In reallife(tm) the allies tried bombing the plant and when
the germans tried shipping a couple of railroad cars full of heavy water
the Norse resistance blew the ferry up and sank it. Thus no atombomb for mr
Adolf.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:13:23 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: FLGS in Harvard area

>> From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
>
>> Also down Mass Ave. just across the bridge going into Boston is the "The
>> Complete Strategist".  At least it used to be there.
>
>It was there last October.

If you visit that store often, you can sign up for the MIT Science Fiction
Society (affiliation w/MIT not required) and get a 10% (cash purchases, 5%
on credit purchases) discount at the Compleat Gamer.

See http://www.mit.edu/activities/mitsfs/homepage.html for full details of
the MITSFS.

Pete




                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:35:33 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Toys of the far future

>Vargr pups would undoubtedly be *extremely* fad oriented. One visit into
>Vargr territory would reveal a totally different universe of toys than
>another visit a few months later. I'm imagining that the Vargr Extants would
>be filled with young pups pulling on their mothers' arms screaming "Buy me
>this! Buy me this!" Once a popular kid got a toy, all of the other kids
>around would absolutely *need* to have the same toy... to an extent. The
>backlash would be brutal as a new kid rockets to popularity with different
>toys. In literally days, Vargr toys might be red-tagged to bargain basement
>prices.

Which is about how things are for human children on Terra, North American
continent, circa -2519 (Imperial Calendar).  :)

(For those still on the old Solomani calendar, that's AD 1999.)  




     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:44:55 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Filthy Lucre

>	My point was rather, that they can actually BUY something with the 
>money.  If you give them money and take it away or don't let them buy 
>anything, then it isn't a motivator.    If you play a Star Trek style game 
>with everyone in active service in the Navy or Scouts, then no money is not 
>going to have much impact, but yuck, who needs that.

What's wrong with that? I run a campaign in which the PCs are a group of
IISS scouts, and they're having a great time of it. Of course, the PCs
are part of an ultra-secret intelligence unit within the IISS who pretty
much have carte blanche to do what's necessary when the security of the
Imperium is threatened. Which means they get to travel more or less where
they want (with the odd assignment tossed their way), they don't have to
worry about expenses (the IISS takes care of it), and they get to shoot
things: drug dealers, the stormtroopers of a local dictator, terrorists...


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:47:36 -0500
From: "Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com>
Subject: Intro for new players

I'm looking for a good set of introduction materials for new players who
have never played in the Classic/GURPS Traveller universe before.  Oddly,
I'm not finding anything on the net after three days of looking. 

I'm not fond of handing my players a chunk of Library Data...  I find it
rather annoying to read random bits in alphabetical order myself.  I'd like
a concise history, and a general description of the state of things (in the
1120 alternate timeline of GURPS Traveller).  Anybody know where I can find
such a thing?

If not, does anybody have ideas on writing such a thing?  It looks like I
may have to write it myself and I wouldn't mind input. 

- --
Carl D Cravens
carl.cravens@lsil.com
316-636-8078

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:59:41 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: A Vargr Werewolf in London

> From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
> 
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: <david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au>
> > And no, I can't remember the issue number, either. Just that it was early.
> > Way before it became a lead miniatures catalog. Try asking Andy Slack (his
> > website is linked from my links page)!! Alternatively, there are a few
> > "Ultimate Guides to Traveller" on the 'Net that should list the article.
> 
> WD #62, Feb 1985

How could I find out more about this adventure?

Thanks,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:29:29 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

><< As a referee, my favorite line from a sci fi movie: "Apology accepted,
> Captain Needa."
>
>xxxxx
>Were is that line from?
>xxxxx


The Empire Strikes Back. Captain Needa is the unfortunate commander of the
ISD _Avenger_, which loses track of the _Millenium Falcon_ while pursuing
it out of the asteroid field.

Captain Needa: "Track them! They may come around for another pass."
Sensor Operator: "Captain Needa, the ship no longer appears on our scopes!"
Needa: "They can't have disappeared," to First Officer "no ship that small
   has a cloaking device."
Sensor Operator: "Well, there's no trace of them sir."
Communication Officer: "Captain, Lord Vader demands an update on the pursuit."

Dramatic pause.

Needa, to First Officer: "Get a shuttle ready. I shall go explain our
   situation, and apologize to Lord Vader for losing them. In the meantime,
   continue to scan the area."
First Officer: "Yes, Captain Needa."

The next time we see Captain Needa (a few scenes later) he is gasping his
last breath out while Darth Vader uses the Force to strangle him.

Vader: "Apology accepted, Captain Needa."

Advancement in the upper management levels of the Imperial Starfleet is
pretty quick.

Lucan didn't have the Force, but any number of high tech tortures work just
as well . . .


> After the upcoming Morrow Project: Reign of Steel campaign I
> have planned, that is. A MARS team on an Earth ruled by robots -- woo hoo!
>
>What is MARS (other than the planet)?


MARS -- Mobile Assault Rescue and Strike Division: This is the combat arm
of the Morrow Project, made up of specialists who have pledged themselves
to protect the Project and its personnel.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:31:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Aliens lines 

On Thu, 27 May 1999, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> > At the time Aliens came out *most* of the audience had never *heard* of
> > Starship Troopers, so I wondered what they might have thought this line
> > meant.
> 
> I *read* it long before Aliens was ever shot.

Of course you read it, it's a *book* (and only a book when Aliens came
out). I presume a high percentage of the TML has read it. That wasn't the
point of my statement above - I was referring to *most* of the audience,
not to the small percentage of hard core science fiction readers.

- -BB

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:39:10 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Missle acceleration

Rob Brady writes:
"Assume 1G = 10m/s^2
I am rushing towards the spot I want to protect at 60m/s, and I
suddenly detect my enemy travelling towards me at 60m/s. I don't
react until we have passed each other, and I fire a 12G missle,
and it launches at 120m/s, leaving it at an absolute standstill
relative to my enemy. It cannot hit in the next turn. How fast
does it accelerate now, and what is its homing mechanism?"

"I get the idea that you don't think it has any acceleration, so
it is more like a cannon than a missle, in which case the enemy
escapes."

	I believe that there is some confusion here about
	acceleration. As you pointed out, 1G is about 10m/s^2 and
	not 10m/s. As you pass your enemy at 60m/s (very slow in
	space combat terms) we will assign your vessel an arbitrary
	velocity of +60m/s and your enemy -60m/s. At launch, the
	missile has a velocity of +60m/s (it was moving with you) 
	and an acceleration of -120m/s^2. After one turn (10 minutes
	according to Book 2, IIRC) your vessel will have moved +36 km,
	the enemy will have moved -36 km, and the missile will have
	moved -21,564 km and reached a velocity of -72,000 m/s. The 
	biggest problem that the missile will have is hitting or at
	least going off near the target.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:52:25 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Intro for new players

The sidebars in GT: Behind the Claw have great year by year discriptions of
current events. I believe they start at 1100 and work their way to 1120 (in
the GT timeline of course) The Gurps Traveller mainbook as similiar sidebar
information on the 1st imperium. Some of those books I've found the sidebars
more interesting! I think those little 2-3 paragraph stories are great for
showing some flavor for the universe.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

> I'm looking for a good set of introduction materials for new players who
> have never played in the Classic/GURPS Traveller universe before.  Oddly,
> I'm not finding anything on the net after three days of looking.
>
> I'm not fond of handing my players a chunk of Library Data...  I find it
> rather annoying to read random bits in alphabetical order myself.  I'd
like
> a concise history, and a general description of the state of things (in
the
> 1120 alternate timeline of GURPS Traveller).  Anybody know where I can
find
> such a thing?
>
> If not, does anybody have ideas on writing such a thing?  It looks like I
> may have to write it myself and I wouldn't mind input.
>
> --
> Carl D Cravens
> carl.cravens@lsil.com
> 316-636-8078

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:57:38 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Filthy Lucre

In a message dated 5/27/99 9:45:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
cos90@powersurfr.com writes:

<< h everyone in active service in the Navy or Scouts, then no money is not 
 >going to have much impact, but yuck, who needs that.
 
 What's wrong with that? I run a campaign in which the PCs are a group of
 IISS scouts,  >>

	There's nothing wrong with that at all, just a joke.   I do however, 
prefer games where the PC's are their own bosses and are looking for cash to 
support themselves and improve their footing.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:08:57 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Money in Traveller (was Re: Filthy Lucre)

One big difference between Traveller and many other RPG's is
that the PC's main method of acquiring power and prestige is 
through the acquisition of money and the things that money
can buy. This does not mean that all PC's should think about
is how much cash they get/have, rather it provides a means to
increase power (which can be lost), a reason to get involved 
in certain scenarios (not the only reason, not all scenarios
nor all PC's), and a backdrop for various activities. In RPG's
like AD&D, while hirelings and magic items may be important,
increasing skills (levels) is the main way in which characters 
increase in power. Role-playong should be (IMHO) the most 
important aspect of Traveller or AD&D, but making money or
gaining levels helps to set up situations for role-playing.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:20:06 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

>Money is just a "maguffin" in movies and rarely ever comes up in Sci-Fi
>movies. I mean, even though Han Solo got his reward money at one point,
>he didn't actually get to pay off Jabba or buy anything for use in the later
>movies.

A case could be made -- and has been made -- that he blew his money on
upgrades for the Millenium Falcon (adding such things as chrome handlebars
and such). See

http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/mf/

for an entirely too in-depth view of all aspects of the Millenium Falcon
(and some pretty kewl deckplans that may or may not be of use in a
Traveller campaign).

It is true that money is a story element in movies and is handled
differently in RPGs. This has to do with the fundamental differences
between movies and RPGs, though (story telling v. shared story creation).

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:41:00 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, May 27, 1999 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)


>I disagree with your disagree.
>
>The point is that a "proper" Traveller PC group would use the money
>to upgrade their ship's computer, replace the laser turrret with
>dual fusion beams and buy FGMP-15s.


Thank you for telling me what's "proper." ;)

>Then they'd go and "Nuke" Jabba.
>
>It's not like D&D where you need the cash for experience, so the PCs
>either hand it over to buy training or go to sleep on piles of the stuff.


Actually, for the record the gold=experience thing has been gone from the
AD&D rules for 10 years now (since the printing of AD&D 2nd edition).

>In Traveller, you either need the money to pay the bills, or to buy
>the nice toys that make the next adventure so dangerous...
>to NPCs and the infrastructure. :-)


I don't know. I've found ultimately that the toys are secondary. Then again,
I don't run combat heavy games...

>Personally, I like the Shadowrun system, where you have a lifestyle cost
>(eg cross off 5k each month or eventually you get kicked out of your
> apartment, your car reposessed and your middle class friends stop talking
> to you.)
>That way you don't have to keep track of every can of soft drink they buy
>from the local store.


That's almost what I'm talking about. Money gets moved to the background.

>However, finding the money to replace a broken jump drive...


That's fine, and frankly that sounds more to me like a McGuffin than simply
just chasing after money.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:04:35 EDT
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Rob Casewell!

Greetings All:

Thought you'd be interested. Check out:

http://www.starshipmodeler.com/

Rob C. is involved in this page dealing with starship models. For you Space: 
1999 fans, take a look at the kits to super-detail the Eagle. Neat!

There's also some Star Wars, B5 notes, reviews/previews, etc.

Good stuff!

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:24:05 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Burito Files

> "C. Michael (Swordy)" wrote:
> 
> <sigh> Had a rather tough time with ftp tonight.  Hopefully _that_
> silliness is over.  The whole file is there now.
> 
I wasn't sure it wasn't me, I use Netscape 4.60 and it sometimes doesn't
load pages unless you hit RELOAD several times.  No idea why it does
this.  Since the AOL buy out, its gotten more and more buggy.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:32:16 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters

I have a program I wrote in BASIC that converts traveller stats to PC
and visa versa.



- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:19:29 -0500
From: "Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com>
Subject: RE: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

>A case could be made -- and has been made -- that he blew his money on
>upgrades for the Millenium Falcon (adding such things as chrome handlebars
>and such). See

If we'll recall, Han was preparing the Falcon for departure from Hoth at the
beginning of Empire to go pay Jabba off.  (I believe it was a discussion
between him and Luke and involved a quote about "there's a price on my
head".)  Of course, he was a little side-tracked, and by the time he got
things under control again, Jabba was in no condition to demand payment. 

One could then presume that he gave all of his money back to the Rebellion.
Or maybe he didn't... things didn't settle down enough to see what he might
do with it before the end of Jedi. 

What it comes down to is, Han never had a chance to spend the money that we
saw.  We don't know what he did with it, but there's no more evidence for
either spending or not spending. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:25:58 -0500
From: "Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com>
Subject: RE: Intro for new players

>The sidebars in GT: Behind the Claw have great year by year discriptions of
>current events. I believe they start at 1100 and work their way to 1120 (in
>the GT timeline of course) The Gurps Traveller mainbook as similiar sidebar
>information on the 1st imperium. Some of those books I've found the
sidebars
>more interesting! I think those little 2-3 paragraph stories are great for
>showing some flavor for the universe.

I enjoyed reading the sidebars in GT... especially the "behind the scenes"
ones where Loren tells us why things were done the way they were and other
bits of trivia.  

I've got GT:BtC on order... I'm just trying to get my players up to speed on
what I'm offering them before I get too much invested.  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:42:44 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

At 03:49 AM 5/27/99 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 99-05-24 14:45:11 EDT, you write:
>
><< As a referee, my favorite line from a sci fi movie: "Apology accepted,
> Captain Needa."
>
>xxxxx
>Were is that line from?
>xxxxx

Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back.

> The evil emperor Lucan often used a line similar to this in a Star Warsish
> Megatraveller game I ran some while ago now (Star Wars: The Shattered
> Imperium). After seeing TPM, I am certain this is to be the next type of
> game I'll run. After the upcoming Morrow Project: Reign of Steel campaign I
> have planned, that is. A MARS team on an Earth ruled by robots -- woo hoo!
> 
> OT: Is there a living Morrow Project mailing list somewhere? >>
>
>What is MARS (other than the planet)?


MARS stands for Mobile Assault Rescue and Strike.  They were the military
arm of the Morrow project.


Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #676
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 27 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 677



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Time Traveller...
Re: Intro for new players
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Book 8 query
RE: Missle acceleration
Re: A Vargr Werewolf in London
Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Aliens lines
Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
Re: NPC quips in Traveller
Re: FLGS in Harvard area
Re: Rob Casewell!
Re: NPC quips in Traveller
T4:  weight limits and personal armor
Re: NPC quips in Traveller
old Trav. history
Woo Hoo!! Air/Raft Mk I coming
Re: Filthy Lucre (kinda long and semibiographical)
Re: Woo Hoo!! Air/Raft Mk I coming
Re: Corporate Structure
Re: old Trav. history
Playing a free trader/merchant campaign (was: Filthy Lucre)
Using Money to Annoy Your Players...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:02:00 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Time Traveller...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
> > There was also an adventure in a mag (Spacegamer?  White Dwarf?) where a
> > crew and their ship wound up in Germany of WWII, and the crew needed to
get
> > it's hands on the German heavy water to escape back home somewhere
>
> White Dwarf again, number in the high thirties. Non standard Traveller
> universe, with strange alians one of which is adicted to a naturaly
occuring
> eath gas, clorien IIRC.
>
> I think it was called Green Horizon, but I am not sure.

Green Horizon, correct.  One of Marcus Rowland's creations.  WD #35, Nov.
1982


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SwordWorlder
http://www.downport.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:10:35 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Intro for new players

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Cravens, Carl <carl.cravens@lsil.com>
> I'm not fond of handing my players a chunk of Library Data...  I find it
> rather annoying to read random bits in alphabetical order myself.  I'd
like
> a concise history, and a general description of the state of things (in
the
> 1120 alternate timeline of GURPS Traveller).  Anybody know where I can
find
> such a thing?
>
> If not, does anybody have ideas on writing such a thing?  It looks like I
> may have to write it myself and I wouldn't mind input.

I'd love to have a HTML copy to publish on the Dowport.com Understanding
Traveller page http://downport.com/under.html !  If you come up with
something, let me know.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SwordWorlder
http://www.downport.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:12:28 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Book 8 query

>Is there meant to be a Volume rating for installed devices/sensors/weapons
>in Book 8? The tables seem to only factor in weight, power and cost, perhaps
>assuming any devices added are external to the chassis. However, under
>manipulator's, I think it says that they can hold twice their weight in
>installed devices etc.
>
>So, should a rule of thumb be Volume = Twice Weight?
>
>Michael Hughes

This has always been a failing in Book 8, although the prices and weights
quickly add up to limit your robot.

In general, the best way to interpret the entries is to get Megatraveller
and crosswalk whatever item you are looking at to the equivalent item iin
the Referee's Manual (most stuff is there).  For those which are not in
that other reference (or in the Imperial Encyclopedia, which has general
equipment and weapons) use the weight in kilograms as volume in liters, or,
in certain cases, treat the volume as negligable (i.e. visual sensors which
arent active, audio sensors, memory & CPU, add em all up and consume 1
liter)

And remember this miniaturization rule of Thumb (Stolen from Jo Grant);
Anything (within reason) can be made half the volume (or weight, but not
both) for ten times the cost.  This can be done once for each TL above
introduction of the item (so at the exact TL, no miniaturization is
possible).  This is a special order, so may take time to build.  Apply this
with common sense, as with all things.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:15:38 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: RE: Missle acceleration

At 10:39 AM 5/27/99 -0400, you wrote:
>	velocity of +60m/s and your enemy -60m/s. At launch, the
>	missile has a velocity of +60m/s (it was moving with you) 
>	and an acceleration of -120m/s^2. After one turn (10 minutes

That was where I misunderstood you - I thought you said the missle
was _launched_ at 12Gs, not that it had an acceleration of 12Gs.
(In other words, I thought IYTU it was only accelerated by the 
launcher)


- -- 
Should've been dead on a Sunday morning
banging my head / no time for mourning
ain't got no time  -- Creed
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:20:57 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: A Vargr Werewolf in London

> > WD #62, Feb 1985
>
> How could I find out more about this adventure?

Um... hmm... er... well, I guess you could get a copy of White Dwarf #62.
Or borrow one.  Or ask Andy Slack about who Jae Campbell is and if there is
a source for his Traveller articles on the web (Andy has posted his own).
There must be other options, but for some reason I can't seem to think of
any at this very moment while I'm typing this very public e-mail message.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SwordWorlder
http://www.downport.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:29:22 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

In a message dated 5/27/99 11:44:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, semo@pil.net 
writes:

<< 
 That's almost what I'm talking about. Money gets moved to the background.
 
 >However, finding the money to replace a broken jump drive...
 
 
 That's fine, and frankly that sounds more to me like a McGuffin than simply
 just chasing after money.
  >>

	It depends.   Money is a McGuffin when the GM says, oh, by the way 
your Jump Drive's broken and you've got to fix it.   This is "story-telling" 
type gaming (or Railroading).   Money is not a McGuffin when the PC's ship 
has its Jump Drive damaged by Pirates (although this is of course impossible) 
from either a plannned or random encounter, through regular use of the combat 
system.  I much prefer it when the game provokes the story rather than the 
story leads the game, which is why I like the economic aspect of Traveller so 
much.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:34:08 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

> Dramatic pause.
>
> Needa, to First Officer: "Get a shuttle ready. I shall assume full
responsibility
>    for losing them, and apologize to Lord Vader. Meanwhile, continue to
scan the area."
> First Officer: "Yes, Captain Needa."

Oops. *That's* what he said.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net
(who has no life and nothing to do for lunch ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:34:43 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

In a message dated 5/27/99 12:28:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
carl.cravens@lsil.com writes:

<< 
 What it comes down to is, Han never had a chance to spend the money that we
 saw.  We don't know what he did with it, but there's no more evidence for
 either spending or not spending. 
  >>

This is exactly my original point.   Money in movies is just a McGuffin, used 
to set Han Solo's character into the fray, but the minute it is no longer 
needed as such it is dropped.   In Traveller, that money continues to be 
important, since it can be used to upgrade the PC's footing.      In Sci-Fi 
movies, nobody hads to worry about making a living, but in Trav they do.   
I've always fantasized about a Trav-based TV show, where the mortage on a 
Free Trader had to be paid by the end of each episode, I think'd be 
entertaining and fun to follow. (might teach a few people about money and 
business as well---not that I'm an expert)

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:23:13 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Aliens lines

> From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>

> > > Did anyone else take this as a reference to Heinlein's Starship Troopers
> > > when they heard it?
> > 
> > Of course.  Didn't *everybody*?
> 
> At the time Aliens came out *most* of the audience had never *heard* of
> Starship Troopers, so I wondered what they might have thought this line
> meant.

To the contrary, Starship Troopers had been published some twenty years
before, and had been in print more or less continuously ever since. 
It's a pretty popular piece of classic science fiction and was very well
known to the audience of the mid-1980s.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:31:26 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

> From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
 
> Glenn M. Goffin sez,

> >What makes you think they sit at all?
> 
> The first published W. Keith picture of the K'kree (in JTAS #_?) shows a
> K'kree Leader and his Scribe, both sitting on bench-shaped couches,
> surrounded by (standing) guards and servants.

I stand corrected.  As soon as you mentioned it, I remembered the
article and illustration.  It's an interview with a K'Kree ambassador,
and ends with the interviewer being rudely escorted out after feeling
(and thus giving off the odor of) fear when the ambassador casually
describes killing a human woman and child with his feet during a
battle.  ("To conserve ammunition, we killed them with our feet.")

So that's a good source for seating for the starship bridge.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:49:38 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller

> From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
> Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
 
> Lucan didn't have the Force, but any number of high tech tortures work just
> as well . . .

Lucan, if anyone, would be playing a Darth Vader-like role in conquering
the Imperium, and would strive for dramatic and supernatural effects
(probably achieved through technology rather than psionics).  The
prevailing attitude toward psionics in the Third Imperium would make him
even more frightening, and Lucan was certainly a follower of
Machiavelli's principle that it is better for a ruler to be feared than
loved.  

How might he have achieved the Captain Needa Apology Effect?  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:19:24 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: FLGS in Harvard area

"Peter H. Brenton" wrote:

> >> From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
> >
> >> Also down Mass Ave. just across the bridge going into Boston is the "The
> >> Complete Strategist".  At least it used to be there.
> >
> >It was there last October.
>
> If you visit that store often, you can sign up for the MIT Science Fiction
> Society (affiliation w/MIT not required) and get a 10% (cash purchases, 5%
> on credit purchases) discount at the Compleat Gamer.
>
> See http://www.mit.edu/activities/mitsfs/homepage.html for full details of
> the MITSFS.
>
> Pete

They'll also give the 10% discount if you're a writer in the game field.
After Far Trader, I get the discount there.  But no discount if you use
a credit card, and no checks.

They carry a medium amount of Gurps stuff.  The other day they
had 3 copies of First In, 2 of Far Trader, 2 of Traveller.  I've
never seen Star Mercs or Aliens I there.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:58:25 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Rob Casewell!

>From: Diespamer@aol.com
>Subject: Rob Casewell!
...
> http://www.starshipmodeler.com/
>
>Rob C. is involved in this page dealing with starship models. For you Space: 
>1999 fans, take a look at the kits to super-detail the Eagle. Neat!

  And both the Eagle and the "Alpha Laser tank" that they feature are in
1:100, which is near enough to 15mm as to make no difference :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:00:42 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller

In a message dated 5/27/99 2:01:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gmgoffin@pacbell.net writes:

<< 
 How might he have achieved the Captain Needa Apology Effect?  
  >>

	Aww come on, Lucan is all mean and no style.  He would have just 
jumped up and down screaming his lungs out about "treason and corruption" 
until an ambitious underling or two would have done the honors and shot the 
offending officer on the spot.  I mean, he wasn't exactly subtle when he 
gunned down his brother.


			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:09:17 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: T4:  weight limits and personal armor

	A question for T4 players, (possibly for you ACQ gurus)  does the 
weight of personal armor count for encumberabce or not?
	In Classic Traveller it did not, and in the main book of T4 it 
repeats the same language.  But in the descriptions in Central Supply 
Catalogue it seems to indicate that the mass does apply to the encumberance 
limit.
	IMTG, I had been ruling that non-powered Battle Dress, Flex armor and 
other similar armors such as Plate-8 and primitive armor did count for weight 
limit.  but cloth armor was just clothing so it did not count toward the 
limit, neither did powered armor, for obvious reasons.  
	How did you folk read these rules?

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:36:04 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 5/27/99 2:01:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> gmgoffin@pacbell.net writes:
> 
> <<
>  How might he have achieved the Captain Needa Apology Effect?
>   >>
> 
>         Aww come on, Lucan is all mean and no style.  He would have just
> jumped up and down screaming his lungs out about "treason and corruption"
> until an ambitious underling or two would have done the honors and shot the
> offending officer on the spot.  I mean, he wasn't exactly subtle when he
> gunned down his brother.

That was long before he had the power and resources of the Iridium
Throne. 

His actions that day were simply the snap evaluation of the situation,
and the immediate execution of a pragmatic plan to get him into power.

While clearly a sociopathic fratricide and regicide (after all,
unconfirmed or not, Varian _was_ emperor when he was killed) Lucan, from
the description, was quite cool and collected when he shot everyone in
that room. 

He decided that he could simply finish what Dulinor's goons had started,
cover himself in glory for the "heroic, though tragically unsuccessful"
(as the newsmedia would put it) attempt to drive off the assassins, and
grab the throne for himself.

Once in power he would take pains to make himself seem unreachable by
assasins bullets...to enance his standing as the One True Leader of the
Imperium.

As to how, that's a good question...I would guess that he had some
trained psions on staff, carefully kept on leash by some means. (feed
them a poison in their daily diet, for which you dole out a daily dose
of the antidote. If they displease you, you give them a sugar pill
instead of the true antidote.)
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:53:40 -0400
From: Dave Biggs <dbiggs@magicnet.net>
Subject: old Trav. history

I have been out of Trav. for sometime.  I got turned off by the whole virus 
thing.  I'm re-interested and like the idea of forgetting that it ever 
happened, sort of like Star Trek I was so bad that they sort of forgot 
about it when they did STII.  Anyway I am curious about what happened (or 
didn't happen) to the main characters.  Can someone please give me a run 
down on their history?  I know the guy who killed Strephon got run over by 
a lawn tractor or something like that...



Dave Biggs ------- dbiggs@magicnet.net
Sauron on FIBS, NODS & DeeBiggs on Yahoo
"stupid races don't build starships" -- Robert Heinlein
Ad Infinitem Et Ultra

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:06:43 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Woo Hoo!! Air/Raft Mk I coming

Check out:

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/ptech/9905/27/flying.car.reut/

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:17:01 -0400
From: "Shade" <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Filthy Lucre (kinda long and semibiographical)

>   If you play a Star Trek style game
>with everyone in active service in the Navy or Scouts, then no money is not
>going to have much impact, but yuck, who needs that.
> As Steve jackson games has pointed out, the two most popular sorts of
>Traveller campaigns are MERChants and MERCenaries (notice the same root,
>refering to comMERCe).

I read a statement similar to this in one of the GT books.  You know... I'm
not sure if I should find this statement frightning like I did when I first
read it or if I should find it hilarious like my players did when they read
it.

I have been running a very successful set of Traveller games here in the
Chattanooga, Tennessee area on and off since 1985.  I started off when I was
15, running a group of adventurers through lots of simple " dungeon-crawl "
style adventures.  It was very popular and a great deal of fun, but was
simple by most of my standards today.

Later in college (1988) in Athens, GA , I took up a different campaign in
the early Rebellion years.  It consisted of a group of 5 college friends and
one of the orginal group from above.  It was made more sophisticated than
the first game with more character development.  The basic plot was that the
characters had helped rescue James Windhook from the assassination and was
generall in hiding along the war front of the Solomani/Imperial border.
This lasted until 1991 and again was quite popular.

When I got back to Chattanooga (1992), I was asked to join a game at a local
hobby store ( now defunct ) that was an ongoing merchant campaign.  I played
in this for almost 6 months ( once a week, Monday nights at the store )
before I had almost lost all of my hair because I pulled most of it out in
sheer boredom.  The game consisted of the GM and the Captain of the ship
going over figures and counting the money they were making.  Then they would
figure out how to make more money by changing trade routes or what materials
would make more money in which starport, etc.  This was by far the most
boring experience I have ever had.  When I asked the other players about it,
I found quickly that they were mainly playing out of friendship to the GM
and they were more bored than I was.

After that game went belly-up, I was asked to run a game of Traveller there.
After much convincing ( I was afraid they wanted me to run another game like
the above one ), I finally relented and ran a very Star Warsish game set in
the Rebellion.  I ran this game for a year and a half and it was so popular
that I finally cut the group off at the high mark of 19 players, usually
with at least 10 to 15 watchers watching the game.

Since then, I have ran several more games for basicly that group ( minus a
few, add a few ).  I've ran them as criminals, scouts, active Navy, active
Marines, active RC, active Domain of Deneb.  I ran the Arrival Vengeance
campaign for quite a while ( ok... I added a lot to the basic campaign ).
We have been, and are still having, a blast. :)  Currently, I'm running an
active Navy campaign in the Fifth Frontier War ( using Full Thrust rules ).

Since 1992, we had one more game ran by the same GM as ran the boring game
above.  It came to be known as " UPS in Spaaaaaaaace " by the group.  It
rivalled heavily the boredom experienced in the first game and lasted for
three weeks.  So both myself and my group have a heavy bias against Merchant
games.

As for the Mercenary end, that same above GM of boredom suggested that we
try a mercenary campaign.  We all decided that maybe this was his chance to
shine, and after all, he was our friend.  We all showed up, expecting to be
part of a rollicking Merc company.  We got to the starport and he told us we
had no ship, no weapons, no other mercenaries than the four of us that had
decided to play.  We had the clothes on our backs.  We'd just have to make
some money to build that company.

Two of them got up and walked out of the store in disgust.  Two of us stayed
and talked it over with him.  He just couldnt understand why we didnt like
his concept.  My friend replied merely this:

"  How many people would want to see a movie where Indiana Jones spent all
his time in the humdrum world of going to college to get his degree?  No
one.  Everyone wants to see, and in this case play, someone who is there.
Someone who is out adventuring.  Someone who is chasing after the Ark, The
Holy Rocks, The Grail.  No one wants to be a real life student in a
role-playing game. "

He refused to ever run another game again.  Frankly, no one misses them.

I'm sorry this is long, but I feel that there are probably others out there
who feel like me.  I just dont understand the excitment of being a merchant.
I dont understand why anyone would want to play a game of book balancing.

Just my .02 credits worth.

Shade

Madness takes its toll....please have exact change.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:26:38 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Woo Hoo!! Air/Raft Mk I coming

At 02:06 PM 5/27/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Check out:
>
>http://www.cnn.com/TECH/ptech/9905/27/flying.car.reut/
>

Or you can go straight to the source...

http://www.moller.com/skycar/

I gotta win the lottery for this!

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:38:22 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Corporate Structure

Charles Hensley wrote:

>>Only large organizations would make much use of E6 or higher
>>ranks. Perhaps union officials in US industry might be
>>considered as high-ranking "enlisted" employees.

>Not necessarily, many small companies have Master craftsmen who
>did not go the management route and are hourly employees.

<examples snipped>

Good point. I'm not as familiar with such trades. Experienced and 
highly skilled hourly tradesmen such as T&D makers should indeed 
qualify for corporate E5-E7 ranks. These should still have supervisory and
training roles over those in the same trade, but not the wider
focus that a manager needs to have.
  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:41:37 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: old Trav. history

Go to http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/oldnews.html
for the TAS reports since the never-happened assasination of Strephon.

Basically, Dulinor died (?)in an unexplained explosion, just before he
was to have an audience with the Emperor...it was in the TNE era he got
run down by the 'lawn mower'. 

Dave Biggs wrote:
> 
> I have been out of Trav. for sometime.  I got turned off by the whole virus
> thing.  I'm re-interested and like the idea of forgetting that it ever
> happened, sort of like Star Trek I was so bad that they sort of forgot
> about it when they did STII.  Anyway I am curious about what happened (or
> didn't happen) to the main characters.  Can someone please give me a run
> down on their history?  I know the guy who killed Strephon got run over by
> a lawn tractor or something like that...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:44:54 -0500
From: "Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com>
Subject: Playing a free trader/merchant campaign (was: Filthy Lucre)

>I'm sorry this is long, but I feel that there are probably others out there
>who feel like me.  I just dont understand the excitment of being a
merchant.
>I dont understand why anyone would want to play a game of book balancing.

A merchant game doesn't have to be about book keeping... and probably
shouldn't be.  Go read CJ Cherryh's Chanur series (Pride of Chanur, Chanur's
Venture, The Kif Strike Back ("Never, ever joke about titles: your publisher
may use one" - CJ Cherryh), Chanur's Homecoming and Chanur's Legacy.)
You'll find the Hani to be much like Aslan, and the Kif are Vargr-like in
their society, but even more so.  (Though they aren't dog-men and are
distinctly different... but they've got this concept of 'sfik' which is much
like Vargr charisma, but scarier because there aren't any "nice" Kif.)  

The Chanur are a Hani clan, and the main characters are the female crew of
the Pride of Chanur, their clans trading vessel.  And despite being free
traders, the crew of the Pride get involved in adventures worthy of any
mercenary.  It's one of my favorite SF series, and is what my upcoming
Traveller campaign is based on. 

The key to the free trader campaign is to remember this:  the best money is
to be made on cargoes that people are in a hurry to move, quietly, and no
questions asked.  They don't even have to be illegal cargoes.  Picking up
mysterious cargoes, even when you know they're on the up-and-up, are
wonderful hooks into adventures when somebody else wants that cargo, or
wants to stop its delivery, or just wants to cause trouble for the owner for
some reason.  

One thing to watch out for... free trader campaigns can turn political.  If
you don't like politics, you have to be careful how you handle it.
(Pyanfar's (Captain of the Pride) motto is, when confronted with vastly
intelligent, aggressive politics: Do something totally irrational and let
the enemy
think himself to death.)

One of the things I like about the net is that if any of the players *do*
want to play with the day-to-day business of making money, we can do that in
email and not waste real game time figuring out how to pay the bills. 

(Huh... I'm going to have to go read these again over the holiday weekend.
Get me all fired up for my new campaign.) 

When you're done with those, jump over to her Alliance-Union books...
they're set in the same universe, but very, very far apart.  (One of the
characters in the Chanur series is a "lost" human... the first to ever
contact the alien races.)  A-U is an all-human affair (as I recall) but it's
very Traveller-like, IMO.   One set of books is referred to as the
"Merchanter Novels", which are "trading ships and commerce after the Company
Wars."  If Cherryh can write books about merchant ships and make them fun, I
don't see why we can't play merchanter games and do the same. 

Some of her books have won Hugo's and Pride of Chanur was nominated for one.
If you've never read any of her work, I recommend doing so.  Good stuff. 
http://www.cherryh.com

(And it's pronounced "cherry".  Her parents and brother don't have the 'h'.
Seems it offended her sensibilities to be a woman named "cherry".) 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:23:42 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Using Money to Annoy Your Players...

I did this once, and haven't regretted it yet...

The players were interested in being merchants, and I was between
prepared scenaria, so I let them have their head and do some
"clean" trading for a session or two.  However, just to annoy
them with respect to the bookkeeping, I required them to manage
their money in the local currency on the planet that they were on
that session.  Then, I gave them a _really_ nasty currency to
deal with:

The local "Ringal" traded (that week) at par with the Imperial
Credit.  However, prices are quoted in combinations of any of the
following units (plurals in parens):

Tal   (Tals)  at 20 to the Ringal
Pan   (Pyn)   at 12 to the Tal
Ruub  (Ryben) at 4 to the Pan

Pay   (Pays)  at 13 Tal 4 Pyn
Skad  (Skuud) at 21 Tal
Corn  (Kyrn)  at 5 Tal

Grain (Grain) at 4 Pyn

There were also three units with the same name, Fal (Fyl), but
different values.  Which value was meant depended on the
conditions of the transaction:

1 Fal at 2 Tal: (sometimes called the "Lesser Fal")
     Purchases of foodstuffs from vendors not holding a Royal
     Warrant

1 Fal at 6 Tal: (sometimes called the "Greater Fal")
     Purchases of non-foodstuffs from vendors not holding a Royal
     Warrant

1 Fal at 6 Tal 8 Pyn: (sometimes called the "Royal Fal")
     All purchases from vendors holding a Royal Warrant.

Royal Warrants were specifically set up to generate money for the
Crown - the only thing that they got the holder was the right to
use the 6T8P Fal as a pricing unit.  They had to be renewed each
year, and they were quite costly.  The reason that the Fal was
used locally at all was to make it easier for local merchants to
do "triple-entry bookkeeping".  Tax enforcement was pretty lax,
as long as the Crown made budget each year.  If the Crown ever
decided to crack down, the Fal would disappear like a snowflake
in hell.

Merchants would quote prices in all sorts of interesting
combinations of these units, and the players would have to keep
their books straight, because the merchants weren't interested in
much more than fleecing the offworlders.

"Half skad a pay two ryben, yer change is a grain" was a typical
price for something like, perhaps, a large tankard of beer in a
local tavern.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #677
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 27 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 678



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Filthy Lucre (kinda long and semibiographical)
Re: Playing a free trader/merchant campaign (was: Filthy Lucre)
Re: Intro for new players
More Filthy Lucre:   Mercenaries are better than Merchants
"The Merchant Game" (was: Filthy Lucre...)
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned?
4 mercs with shirts on their backs.
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned?
Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Aliens lines 
Re: Earthlight
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned?
In Your Dreams! <g> (was: More Filthy Lucre:   Mercenaries are better than Merchants)
Re: Playing a free trader/merchant campaign
Re: "The Merchant Game" (was: Filthy Lucre...)
Running a good mercantile campaign
Re: Running a good mercantile campaign
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned?
Re: old Trav. history

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:30:48 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Filthy Lucre (kinda long and semibiographical)

In a message dated 5/27/99 5:20:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jwatts@catt.com 
writes:

<< The game consisted of the GM and the Captain of the ship
 going over figures and counting the money they were making.  Then they would
 figure out how to make more money by changing trade routes or what materials
 would make more money in which starport, etc.  This was by far the most
 boring experience I have ever had.  >>

	Oh God, sounds horrible.   But you can have intensely boring 
experiences in "cinematic" roleplaying experiences as well.  There was one 
game I played in where the referee was so taken with his plotline and story 
background that he got angry with us when we didn't follow orders.   God, 
talk, talk, talk.   It was get on the railroad or else.   "No, you don't want 
to talk to him now, you have to go to the servant's entrance first, you can't 
talk to the butler in the garden!"  Finally I had my character bash in the 
head of another character with a lead pipe,  His dying words were "God bless 
you."

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:38:35 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Playing a free trader/merchant campaign (was: Filthy Lucre)

Cravens, Carl wrote:
> 
> >I'm sorry this is long, but I feel that there are probably others out there
> >who feel like me.  I just dont understand the excitment of being a
> merchant.
> >I dont understand why anyone would want to play a game of book balancing.
> 
> A merchant game doesn't have to be about book keeping... and probably
> shouldn't be.  Go read CJ Cherryh's Chanur series (Pride of Chanur, Chanur's
> Venture, The Kif Strike Back ("Never, ever joke about titles: your publisher
> may use one" - CJ Cherryh), Chanur's Homecoming and Chanur's Legacy.)

See also Poul Anderson's Van Rijn, and the rest of the Polesotechnic
League stories:
 The Trader Van Rjin Stories:
    War of the Wing Men (1958) [= The Man Who Counts]
    Trader to the Stars (1964) [C]
    The Trouble Twisters (1966) [C]
    Satan's World (1969)
    Mirkheim (1977)
    The Earthbook of Stormgate (1978) [C] [inc. The Man Who Counts]

(data courtesy of the SF-Lovers web site:

http://sflovers.rutgers.edu/archive/bibliographies/authorlists/ )

The reason you didn't like the Merchant games was because the GM was a
lousy GM. A GM has to balance his gaming interests with the players.
Clearly the GM, and the Ship's Captain player were having fun; it's up
to the players to tell the GM that it's not fun for them. 

It doesn't mean that that genre of campaign is boring.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:53:03 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Intro for new players

Cravens, Carl wrote:
> 
> I'm looking for a good set of introduction materials for new players who
> have never played in the Classic/GURPS Traveller universe before.  Oddly,
> I'm not finding anything on the net after three days of looking.
> 
Check out the BITS Web site.  There's a downloadable file there (in PDF
format) that is an excellent description of Traveller for new players. 
Go to:

http://www.bits.org.uk/

and click on the Archive button.

> I'm not fond of handing my players a chunk of Library Data...  I find it
> rather annoying to read random bits in alphabetical order myself.  I'd like
> a concise history, and a general description of the state of things (in the
> 1120 alternate timeline of GURPS Traveller).  Anybody know where I can find
> such a thing?

One place to look for useful information on this subject is the TNS
portion of the G:T site:

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/news.html

Hope this helps!

<<snip>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:53:39 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: More Filthy Lucre:   Mercenaries are better than Merchants

I firmly believe that a game is vastly improved by having making money an 
important part of the experience.  It acts as a measurable means to gage 
player interaction with society.  And, as I've said, merchant and ,mercenary 
games seem to be the most popular sorts of games out there.   But I was not 
speaking from much first hand experience when it came to merchants.    I've 
almost always run Mercenary games and most oftne wanted to play in mercenary 
games.   I think the important advantage that mercenary games have over 
merchant games is that everybody in the party can really join in the fun.   
Compare Merchant and Mercenary "jobs" for PC's:
	
	1)  The Captain:
	Mercenary:  gives orders, buys stuff,  BLOWS STUFF UP
	Merchant:   gives orders, buys stuff,  does the books.

	2)  Engineer:
	Mercenary:  lays mines, sets traps,  BLOWS UP BUILDINGS
	Merchant:  fixes old pipe fittings

	3) Doctor
	Mercenary:  patches sucking wounds
	Merchant:  hands out space-sickness pills, chucks out dead Low 
Passengers

	4) Executive Officer
	Mercenary:  somewhere the Captain isn't, BLOWS STUFF UP
	Merchant:  repeats Captain's orders in loud voice
	
	5) Shuttle Pilot
	Mercenary: dodges missiles, uses beam laser to BLOW STUFF UP
	Merchant: dodges port inspector, uses hand cart to unload stuff

	6) Ordinary Guy
	Mercenary: fires rifle, throws grenades, BLOWS STUFF UP
	Merchant: cleans up passenger puke, moves boxes around.

So I can see why the guy was bored to death in his merchant game, maybe he 
should have waited a bit on the merc game.


		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 99 18:04:51 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: "The Merchant Game" (was: Filthy Lucre...)

On 05/27/99 at 05:17 PM,  "Shade" <jwatts@catt.com> said:

<big snip>

>I'm sorry this is long, but I feel that there are probably others out
>there who feel like me.  I just dont understand the excitment of
>being a merchant. I dont understand why anyone would want to play a
>game of book balancing.

It's too bad that was your experience with a "merchant" game.  It
isn't mine, not anywhere near what I would call a merchant game.  

Most of the games I have run over the years fall into the merchant
game category.  At least, the players are, or are attempting to be,
crew of a ship engaged in trade.  From your description, I think
that, might be, the only part of your experience that would match up
with mine...or my players...I HOPE!  ;->

In every game, I try to use everything in the environment as an
invitation to adventure.  It's not the bookeeping part of trade that
is exciting, but that's just a tiny part of what is happening around
the characters engaged in trade.

They have to find a cargo, and finding a cargo isn't a matter of
consulting a table, it's interacting with brokers, factors, and
crooks, labor unionists, and government agents, and competing with
other groups for the same cargos.  None of the players (and most
assuredly none of the characters) have access to tables or charts
that tell them what to buy here and sell there, they have to find
that out themselves.  That means getting out onto the planet and
meeting people and finding out what they want to buy and have to
sell...and just when they think they have it figured out "things
change."  ;->

Shipping a cargo (and carrying passengers) isn't a "dead week in
space", it's dealing with gamblers, hijackers, run away lovers (and
children), cargos that "get loose."  And yes I have...um...ethically
challenged groups for them to encounter as well, along with customs
agents and corrupt officials, and honest ones too.

Selling the cargo is more of the same...and I haven't even gotten to
all the *other* things that happen when interesting people get a
chance to travel and see interesting things while in new places.

So, the PC's are spending downtime in a port...that doesn't mean
rolling some dice to see how much repairs will cost and how long it
will take.  In one of my games it's finding parts and people with
the skills to do the maintenance or repairs.  It's *also* meeting
people in bars, cafes, libraries, even on the street that want the
PC's to "deliver a letter", "protect me from those thugs", "find my
missing son", "liberate us from that evil empire..." ;->

Ok, it isn't always *that* obvious, but any adventure could show up
in front of my erst-while merchants...ANYTHING!  They don't have to
take the bait, but if they turn this one down there will be another
one coming along tomorrow.  And my back-story keeps playing out, so
what they turned down today might come back and *insist* on their
attention later.  ;->

To ME that's a "merchant game!"

BTW, I *really* don't have a problem with a "four guys just
mustering out and looking for adventure" scenario.  They go to the
Starport hiring hall and look for an employer, finding several
prospects.  They investigate the prospects and meet with a potential
employer in the Ubiquitous Bar and find out what he/she wants them
to do. 

A. They take the job and an adventure begins...

B. They turn the job down, but when they leave the bar a kid being
chased by K'Kree bowls into them and begs them to help him.  They
do, and that leads to...
  
    1.  Fighting the K'Kree or
    
    2.  Hiding the kid and fast talking the K'Kree
    
.Later the Kid tells them why the "Cows" were after him and leads
them to "a patron" with a job offer.  If they take it, the adventure
begins...

C. I'll let you think this one up. ;-> 

See what I mean?  Anything can lead to adventure, and adventure
leads to fun.  It's the GM's job to give the players an opportunity
to go looking for the adventure, it's the players job to put their
characters in the adventures way, and it's everybodies job to make
the most of it when they find it.

At least that's my opinion.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:04:12 +1000
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned?

I know that the MT Rebellion book practically said Lucan shot his brother
but wouldn't it have been ironic if he hadn't? What if it just turned out
that he was stupid and nasty instead of murderously stupid and nasty. Sure
he was pretty dogged in his attempts to hold onto the empire but it was his
families birthright after-all. 

BTW, given the game authors' fascination with the Roman empire, was Lucan
based on Nero (or even, admittedly non Roman, Richard the Third) and Cleon
the Mad on Caligula? 

Were other historical political figures of history the basis for those in
Traveller? 

What about Norris? Any ideas?

Gosh I'm full of questions today. 

Michael 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 19:21:49 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: 4 mercs with shirts on their backs.

	Given the track record with boring merchant GM, I guess the guy might 
not have wanted to chance playing in a game when he found that it was 4 guys 
starting out on their own in a mercenary game.    I love that set-up for 
traveller and have done it several times with good results.  It's fun to 
build (or to watch your players build) a mercenary unit up from nothing into 
a fearsome fighting machine (and you get to blow stuff up along the way).   I 
just realized that I have such an adventure posted on Jeff's  Freelance 
Traveller site (under Active Measures, it's title is It Beats Shovelling 
Shemdur in Aramanx, barely)  It was fun when I ran it and everybody had a 
good time .

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 19:24:11 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned?

In a message dated 5/27/99 7:12:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au writes:

<< 
 What about Norris? Any ideas?
  >>

	Ambrosius Aurelianus perhaps, who saved what was left of "Roman" 
Britain and made it into a new state.   Rome = Third Imperium, 
Britain=Regency.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 00:24:16 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> writes:
>I think it is just after the Millenium Falcon clamps itself to the
>Star Destroyer and the Imperials can't find it.

Yes, in the Empire Strikes Back.

>The Star Destroyer's captain mutters something about small ships not
>having a cloacking device and DV decides the second in command needs
>a development opportunity.

The Captain tells his 2IC to take over, and to prepare a shuttle so he can
apologise to Lord Vader personally. Next scene with him has him choking on
the floor at Vader's feet, then collapsing. Vader then says the quote and
walks off as the body (?) is taken away.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 00:26:06 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Aliens lines 

AveNelso@aol.com writes:

>	It's funny, but I thought that they used "bug hunt" as a synonym for
>"wild goose chase", i.e., everytime they had gone on a "bug hunt" there
>turned out to be no real "bug" to hunt.  That's why they were really
>surprised by finding real "bugs" this time.

I thought it was also in the context of BEM - Bug Eyed Monsters - linked to
what Dave is suggesting.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 19:33:30 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Earthlight

In a message dated 5/24/99 11:43:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ab@rossmack.com 
writes:

<< Yes.  Clarke's description of the battle is excellent. >>
Wasn't that the battle that the colony used some kind of molten metal "beam" 
to shoot dow the enemy ships?
BobS, typing one-handed because of the newborn he can't bring himself to put 
down...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:39:20 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned?

Hughes, Michael wrote:
> 
> I know that the MT Rebellion book practically said Lucan shot his brother
> but wouldn't it have been ironic if he hadn't? What if it just turned out
> that he was stupid and nasty instead of murderously stupid and nasty. Sure
> he was pretty dogged in his attempts to hold onto the empire but it was his
> families birthright after-all.

Survival Margin has a section on what happened in the prince's quarters
in the Palace that day. Dulinor's men burst in and shot the place up but
were killed by the bodyguards in the room, leaving a shaken Lucan,
Varian, their consorts, their body guards and a junior INI officer
standing there. Amidst the general 'Holy sh*T what's happening' Lucan
calmly picked up an smg and shot everyone else. 

The INI officer managed to boogie out before he was shot. He also
managed to get his sorry doomed butt onto a fast courier leaving the
palace, and, as the story went 'used all of his skills, talents,
resources and favors' getting to the Solomani Rim, out of Lucan's reach.

Lucan promptly spread the story that this officer (last name Windhook,
IIRC) had been in on the assasination plot. Windhook is the only other
living person who knows what happened in that room that day. It sure
sounded like that came straight from someone's campaign...that's exactly
what a PC would do.

> BTW, given the game authors' fascination with the Roman empire, was Lucan
> based on Nero (or even, admittedly non Roman, Richard the Third) and Cleon
> the Mad on Caligula?

Cleon the Mad = Caligula, certainly. Lucan, I don't know. While the
original Tricky Dick did kill the boy Princes, I see Lucan as less like
him and more of a Macbeth figure ...woefully unprepared for the mantle
of Empire, and progressively more psychotic as time went on, as the
pressures of the war and his consience wore on him. Exact literary
comparisons are difficult at best.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 99 18:42:50 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: In Your Dreams! <g> (was: More Filthy Lucre:   Mercenaries are better than Merchants)

On 05/27/99 at 06:53 PM,  AveNelso@aol.com said:

>I think the important advantage that mercenary games have over 
>merchant games is that everybody in the party can really join in the
>fun.   

Ha! Ha! There *can* be plenty of fun for everyone to join in on.

 Compare Merchant and Mercenary "jobs" for PC's:
>	
>	1)  The Captain:
>	Mercenary:  gives orders, buys stuff,  BLOWS STUFF UP
>	Merchant:   gives orders, buys stuff,  does the books.

.finds and negotiates prices for cargos and passage for
passengers.  Meets with "movers and shakers" on the planet getting
involved in politics.  Half the time dragging the rest of the "crew"
into schemes and adventures and the other half trying to drag them
back out.

>	2)  Engineer:
>	Mercenary:  lays mines, sets traps,  BLOWS UP BUILDINGS
>	Merchant:  fixes old pipe fittings

.plots his revenge against "the man that ruined him."  Loves to
gamble, and is good enough at it to make many dangerous enemies.
Loves to climb mountains and is always looking for a "new peak" to
conquer, dragging the rest of the crew along with him.

>	3) Doctor
>	Mercenary:  patches sucking wounds
>	Merchant:  hands out space-sickness pills, chucks out dead Low 
>              Passengers

.and patches burns, punctures and other assorted wounds (boy, YTU
must be a peaceful place!  IMTU if somebody isn't getting shot
they're sitting on a vacuum leak, so there is *always* something for
the Doc to do).  In her spare time she finds time to doing research
on infectious diseases and allergies in local swamps, marshes and
other "interesting" locations.  Also a System Class Gravball player
who is always looking for a game.  Always gets dragged along on
the hair-brained schemes the others are coming up with.

>	4) Executive Officer
>	Mercenary:  somewhere the Captain isn't, BLOWS STUFF UP
>	Merchant:  repeats Captain's orders in loud voice

.and gets everyone involved in hair-brained schemes of his on. 
Also a "stringer" agent for some Intelligence Agency with all these
agendas and missions that have nothing *directly* to do with trade. 

>	5) Shuttle Pilot
>	Mercenary: dodges missiles, uses beam laser to BLOW STUFF UP
>	Merchant: dodges port inspector, uses hand cart to unload stuff

.a former "belter" that loves to "check out the local belt"
whenever he's in a new system, with all the potential for fun that
follows.  Can't pass up a new bar without stopping for a drink and
"a bit of fun", and that usually doesn't mean darts.

>	6) Ordinary Guy
>	Mercenary: fires rifle, throws grenades, BLOWS STUFF UP
>	Merchant: cleans up passenger puke, moves boxes around.

.fights off hijackers, *irates, and xenomorphs hiding out in cargo
boxes and in those swamps, marshes and mountain peaks where he
always seems to find himself.  Also happens to be an archaeologist
who travels with the crew mainly so he can look for and investigate
ancient sites.  Strange how they often show up in those swamps,
marshes and on mountain peaks.  ;->

Any resemblance to current PC's in my AKUS game are completely
coincidental...yeah right! ;->

>So I can see why the guy was bored to death in his merchant game,
>maybe he  should have waited a bit on the merc game.

With *that* GM, he would have been bored in ANY game, I'm afraid.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:56:55 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Playing a free trader/merchant campaign

Carl Cravens wrote:

>A merchant game doesn't have to be about book keeping... and probably
>shouldn't be.  Go read CJ Cherryh's Chanur series (Pride of Chanur,
>Chanur's Venture, The Kif Strike Back ("Never, ever joke about titles:
your
>publisher may use one" - CJ Cherryh), Chanur's Homecoming and Chanur's
>Legacy.)  You'll find the Hani to be much like Aslan, and the Kif are
>Vargr-like in their society, but even more so.  (Though they aren't
dog-men >and are distinctly different... but they've got this concept of
'sfik' which is
>much like Vargr charisma, but scarier because there aren't any "nice"
Kif.)

I think the Chanur series is the best source for understanding the
female Aslan point of view, and make sure that anyone wanting to play an
Aslan in my games read this series.

Both the Chanur series and the U-A series are good background material
for a merchant campaign.  as is the Solar Queen series by Andre Norton.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:54:30 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: "The Merchant Game" (was: Filthy Lucre...)

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> It's too bad that was your experience with a "merchant" game.  It
> isn't mine, not anywhere near what I would call a merchant game.
> 
> Most of the games I have run over the years fall into the merchant
> game category.  At least, the players are, or are attempting to be,
> crew of a ship engaged in trade.  From your description, I think
> that, might be, the only part of your experience that would match up
> with mine...or my players...I HOPE!  ;->

I'll have to stick my 0.02 cr in here. Eris' PBEM is one of the best
games I've ever played in, and it's (roughly) a mechant based game. (we
will, too, Eris if we _ever_ get ahold of that damn ship!)

Plenty of excitement and action, and my character, in roughly two years
of playing (oh lordy, it _has_ been that long!! I just looked at
Ricardo's original character sheet, it's dated 5/16/97) has fired his
weapon for the first time just this week.

It hasn't _seemed_ like two years...but Eris is right, we haven't spent
much time at all on book keeping!
 
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:55:49 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Running a good mercantile campaign

Well, considering I had a hand in Far Trader, and have just had a quite
successful first session of my Mercantile campaign, I'll toss a couple of
points in.

In my opinion, routine merchant operations really is boring, unless you
like accountancy.

What I find interesting is developing markets, and long-haul, high risk
trade. Go rent 'Smokey and the Bandit'. Get a book out about the history of
the British East India Company, or the Silk Route through Turkestan, or the
Spice Trade. Read a history of Hawkins in the Caribbean - he actually spent
more time trading with Spanish colonies than raiding them.

You want risk, fun, politics, and stuff like that. Plus the odd gunfight -
we never said piracy was impossible. We said piracy around mainworlds with
signifigant trade or economies was next to impossible. But if you want to
try and make money by trading with those tiny, desperate mining colonies in
the Outsystem, well ...

My campaign is set around the players being the crew of a ship that is
trying to pioneer a new, fast route between Collace and Narsil, just after
the Fifth Frontier War. Narsil is an Imperial client state, and Narsil is
one of the Sword Worlds, and the crew includes people who were on both
sides of the war. Their patron arranged for passports for them - the Sword
Worlds usually only allows 2 lines, Chaperon Blancs and Stellar Transport,
to service them (the Imperium wanted a peace treaty more than it wanted
'free trade', and the Sword Worlders *really* didnt want the megacorps to
get their claws into them).

The route tries to go right up the guts of District 268, saving a jump by
refuelling at Flexos and Faldor, both of which are very poor lo-tech worlds
with very rudimentary starports.

When I say 'very poor', I mean it. Flexos is TL6, has an Exotic atmosphere,
60 000 people, per capita income of about Imperial Cr 600 a head, and total
exports of about 40 million a year. The ships' engineer has already raided
their spare parts locker to help out the locals, and the purser has put
together a list of what they need. The long-term plan is to 'pad out' any
space that freight customers havent booked with speculative cargos bought
at Collace and Narsil, and to take in exchange the barely-refined exotic
compounds the Flexii scratch from the surface in their ethanol-and-LOx
powered sealed ATVs.

Another key is to create interesting and detailed cargos (*shameless plug
for my Extended Spec Trade rules for GT:FT*). These guys are carrying a
*huge* piano, twleve dtons of very valuable, exceedingly flammable
buckyballs (note to chemists ... is buckminsterfullerine flammable ?), and
about 8 dtons of house pets. Any time things get boring, you can toss in a
delicate situation ...

A long-term idea as well is to get into the Polo Poni business. One of
Tarsus' exports is Polo Ponis, usually to the teams that play on Glisten's
Polo Grounds (you know how much it costs to run that place ... an entire
ecosystem with artificial gravity in an asteroid belt, dedicated to
creating fine, even grass that the dedicated Polo conniseur just *knows* is
needed for a good game). The idea is that Polo catches on in Regina
subsector ... imagine what they'd pay for a string of the finest Tarsus
Ponis ...

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:32:26 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Running a good mercantile campaign

Ian or Katts wrote:
> 

> Another key is to create interesting and detailed cargos (*shameless plug
> for my Extended Spec Trade rules for GT:FT*). These guys are carrying a
> *huge* piano, twleve dtons of very valuable, exceedingly flammable
> buckyballs (note to chemists ... is buckminsterfullerine flammable ?), and
> about 8 dtons of house pets. Any time things get boring, you can toss in a
> delicate situation ...

Nope, buckyballs aren't overly flammble. In fact, soot from candle or
acetylene flames are rich sources of naturally occurring fullerenes.
They'll probably burn readily, though...the current cheap way of making
them is to burn a carbon arc in helium, and chromatographing the soot.

I don't think you could make them _exceedingly_ flammable, except by
dissolving them in gasoline or something.

An MSDS (http://www.carbon60.co.uk/pages/page9.html )I found for mixed
fullerenes does not indicate flammability; and in fact mostly treats it
the same as carbon black, which is not classed as flammable.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:54:42 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned?

In a message dated 5/27/99 7:40:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:

<<  see Lucan as less like
 him and more of a Macbeth figure . >>

	Perhaps we can see Lucan as Caracalla, the son of Severus, who also 
killed his brother soon after the two came to power.  He had a similar 
character to Lucan's and was the last emperor before a long period of 
military anarchy.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:04:07
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: old Trav. history

At 04:53 PM 5/27/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I have been out of Trav. for sometime.  I got turned off by the whole virus 
>thing.  I'm re-interested and like the idea of forgetting that it ever 
>happened, sort of like Star Trek I was so bad that they sort of forgot 
>about it when they did STII.  Anyway I am curious about what happened (or 
>didn't happen) to the main characters.  Can someone please give me a run 
>down on their history?  I know the guy who killed Strephon got run over by 
>a lawn tractor or something like that...

Welcome back.

In the official universe, Dulinor was attacked by an automated piece of
farm machinery, and he bailed.  (sorry)  

In the GURPS: Traveller alternate history, Dulinor was killed on his way to
Capital in a mysterious explosion, Strephon is still Emperor in 1120, and
Grand Princess Iphengia and Prince Varian are touring the Spinward Marches.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #678
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Friday, May 28 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 679



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Running a good mercantile campaign
Re: " The Merchant Game"
Re: 4 Mercs with Shirts on Their Back
HIWG CD - DRWGMD files
Re: In Your Dreams <g>
Re: NPC quips in Traveller
Re: old Trav. history
Re: old Trav. history
T4 Ship Design Question
Re: OTU Cannon (was "Re: Computer Technology")
Re: Time Traveller...
Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters
Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data)
Re: Car Rental
Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL
Re: Computer Technology
Re: "The Merchant Game" (was: Filthy Lucre...) 
Re: In Your Dreams! <g> (was: More Filthy Lucre: Mercenaries are  better than Merchants)
OT, but inspired by Filthy Lucre thread
No Accounting !
Re: "The Merchant Game" (was: Filthy Lucre...) 
Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
Re: Bio tech
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned?
Re: NPC quips in Traveller
Re: Playing a free trader/merchant campaign (was: Filthy Lucre)
Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 99 20:17:32 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Running a good mercantile campaign

On 05/27/99 at 05:32 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:

>Nope, buckyballs aren't overly flammble. In fact, soot from candle or
>acetylene flames are rich sources of naturally occurring fullerenes.
>They'll probably burn readily, though...the current cheap way of
>making them is to burn a carbon arc in helium, and chromatographing
>the soot.

One proposed use for buckyballs, I think, is as a way of trapping
and containing volatile substances allowing for easier transport.
I'm thinking the carbon atoms form a cage holding the volatile
molecule in a cage where it can't react.  If this is *true* then it
might not be the buckyballs that are extremely flammable, it might
be what they are carrying.  As long as you don't crush, burn, or
otherwise break the buckyballs everything is cool, but if you
do...all heck breaks loose.

Of course, I could have this all wrong and if so...never mind.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 21:55:47 -0400
From: "Shade" <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: " The Merchant Game"

>BTW, I *really* don't have a problem with a "four guys just
>mustering out and looking for adventure" scenario.  They go to the
>Starport hiring hall and look for an employer, finding several
>prospects.  They investigate the prospects and meet with a potential
>employer in the Ubiquitous Bar and find out what he/she wants them
>to do.

Honestly Eris, at that point, I think we all saw that if we went into that
bar, it was a gaming life of bookkeeping ahead of us and we just ran
screaming from it!

I can see ( and have used ) the just mustered out tactic.... I think we just
felt that the GM is question wasnt going to be talented enough to make it
anything other than keeping books.

Shade


Madness takes its toll.....please have exact change.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 21:58:54 -0400
From: "Shade" <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: 4 Mercs with Shirts on Their Back

>Given the track record with boring merchant GM, I guess the guy might
>not have wanted to chance playing in a game when he found that it was 4
guys
>starting out on their own in a mercenary game

Speaking as the guy in question, I can say thats exactly what the problem
was with that game.  We all saw a future full of keeping books on our
characters earnings.... not something we wanted to do.


Shade

BTW, I like the subject header change.  Sounds like a good title for a filk
song.

Madness takes its toll.....please have exact change.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:02:58 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files

A number of files under the \Graphics\Deckplan\ subdirectory on the HIWG CD
have no file extension.  The first six bytes of the files contain hex
values: 44 52 57 47 4D 44 ...  which I read as DRWGMD.  Does anyone want to
take a stab at identifying the filetype?

Paul Schirf
Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:04:58 -0400
From: "Shade" <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: In Your Dreams <g>

<snip of details of good character role-playing, that amazingly sound like
some of the PCs in a game I did recently>

>Any resemblance to current PC's in my AKUS game are completely
>coincidental...yeah right! ;->

This is the sort of thing that would have been ok with us.   I've just never
heard of it being done before in " The Merchant Game ".  Its a bit more
refreshing to know its out there.  Although, I think my players would NEVER
go for it.  All they can remember is the " Bad GM " and his UPS in
Spaaaaaacce campaign.

>>So I can see why the guy was bored to death in his merchant game,
>>maybe he  should have waited a bit on the merc game.

>With *that* GM, he would have been bored in ANY game, I'm afraid.

Damn straight.  Which is why no one misses the fact that hes not running
them anymore. Although it sounds like I'd love to be a part of yours.


Shade

Madness takes its toll.....please have exact change.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 19:09:09 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
...
>the floor at Vader's feet, then collapsing. Vader then says the quote and
>walks off as the body (?) is taken away.

  I wonder about that - ISTR that they grabbed him by the shoulders and
half-dragged/half-carried hima way. You'd think that bridge flunkies on
Vaders personal cruiser would have enough opportunity to fine-tune an
SOP - by the heels if they're croakers, and you can check the size and
quality of the footwear at the same time...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:51:32 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: old Trav. history

> In the GURPS: Traveller alternate history, Dulinor was killed on his way to
> Capital in a mysterious explosion, Strephon is still Emperor in 1120, and
> Grand Princess Iphengia and Prince Varian are touring the Spinward Marches.
> -- 
> 

Long Live Emperor Strephon!
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:55:05 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: old Trav. history

In a message dated 5/27/99 1:55:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
dbiggs@magicnet.net writes:

<<  Can someone please give me a run 
 down on their history?  I know the guy who killed Strephon got run over by 
 a lawn tractor or something like that...
 
  >>
Correct; Dulinor got dismembered by a virus infected farm combine. Brzk (and 
his family, and most of his staff...) got to see the inside of a themonuclear 
detonation (his grav HQ went boom) firsthand...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:13:12 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: T4 Ship Design Question

When designing ships using FF&Sv2, one has the option of adding armor
not only to the hull, but also to individual components.  In your
individual/collective opinion(s), is there any point in adding a
centimeter or two of armor to, for instance, the power plant of an
already-armored ship?

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:22:20 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: OTU Cannon (was "Re: Computer Technology")

In a message dated 99-05-22 01:32:02 EDT, you write:

<< You have a better sport for Marines cooped up onboard cramped assault 
ships? >>

What about foam cutlasses?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:37:52 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Time Traveller...

In a message dated 99-05-27 09:12:24 EDT, you write:

<< The PCs in the adventure where aliens and looked like gnomes of Norse myth.
 The heavy water (Deuterium for the p-plant?) was of course up in the
 Telemarken where it was being readied for transport to the German atomic
 bomb program. In reallife(tm) the allies tried bombing the plant and when
 the germans tried shipping a couple of railroad cars full of heavy water
 the Norse resistance blew the ferry up and sank it. Thus no atombomb for mr
 Adolf. >>

heavy water is Deuterium, but it might also include Tridium(sp?) 
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:39:15 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: PCs Playing Themselves As Characters

In a message dated 99-05-27 07:55:41 EDT, you write:

<< The T5 playtest stuff going around has a pretty good "test" to help you
 determine your own (or anyone else's) UPP. >>

I know that this has been asked before, but is there a place on the net were 
T5 is or do I need to email Marc?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:48:03 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

In a message dated 99-05-27 06:40:12 EDT, you write:

<< A tall, dark stranger with a breathing problem?
 
 I think it is just after the Millenium Falcon clamps itself to the
 Star Destroyer and the Imperials can't find it.
 
 The Star Destroyer's captain mutters something about small ships not
 having a cloacking device and DV decides the second in command needs
 a development opportunity.
 
 Phil Kitching >>

Hmm, it realy has been a long time sence I have seen those movies, maybe its 
time I see them again.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:55:10 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data)

In a message dated 99-05-18 12:45:34 EDT, you write:

<< Heheh. One guy I knew who went to a Jesuit school for Grades 6-12
 became a very polite SEAL. >>

I can see it now:
SEAL: "I'm so very sorry, but I have to kill you now, do you want a blind 
fold?"
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:58:01 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Car Rental

In a message dated 99-05-18 12:36:20 EDT, you write:

<< Cut to image of Ethan's professional contacts puzzling over a message
 encouraging them not to take part in a piracy debate, or perhaps 
 pointing out to them just how much computing power it takes to hit
 an incoming missile with a starship-grade laser....  <G> >>
 >>
They would be wondering what he did on his time off.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 00:12:05 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Our Current Computer/Robotics TL

In a message dated 99-05-19 06:15:20 EDT, you write:

<< Yeah, alright.
 Having just read that TL9 is 1990s according to T4, you wouldn't be
 conceding much.
 
 I reserve the right to  argue other things for the hell of if I feel like it
 though
 <grin> >>

But in the homeworld skills you have Grav Craft at TL-7, so I think that we 
are at TL-6.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 00:51:05 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-20 04:18:43 EDT, you write:

<< Not entirely true. The SQuID is a quantum device and was originally 
produced
 in the 1980's
  >>

QSuID?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 01:14:19 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: "The Merchant Game" (was: Filthy Lucre...) 

> On 05/27/99 at 05:17 PM,  "Shade" <jwatts@catt.com> said:
> 
> <big snip>
> 
> >I'm sorry this is long, but I feel that there are probably others out
> >there who feel like me.  I just dont understand the excitment of
> >being a merchant. I dont understand why anyone would want to play a
> >game of book balancing.
> 
> It's too bad that was your experience with a "merchant" game.  It
> isn't mine, not anywhere near what I would call a merchant game.  

Heh.  Don't let him snow you.  The 'Akus Moby' is just a simple treasure hunt. 
 With hostile natives.
 
> Most of the games I have run over the years fall into the merchant
> game category.  At least, the players are, or are attempting to be,
> crew of a ship engaged in trade.  From your description, I think
> that, might be, the only part of your experience that would match up
> with mine...or my players...I HOPE!  ;->

You certainly kept *ME* busy.
 
> Ok, it isn't always *that* obvious, but any adventure could show up
> in front of my erst-while merchants...ANYTHING!  They don't have to
> take the bait, but if they turn this one down there will be another
> one coming along tomorrow.  And my back-story keeps playing out, so
> what they turned down today might come back and *insist* on their
> attention later.  ;->

Like a certain tableside cafe filled with Vargr who love dominance fights?  
'Grandson of an ape' indeed!
 
> To ME that's a "merchant game!"
> 
> BTW, I *really* don't have a problem with a "four guys just
> mustering out and looking for adventure" scenario.  They go to the
> Starport hiring hall and look for an employer, finding several
> prospects.  They investigate the prospects and meet with a potential
> employer in the Ubiquitous Bar and find out what he/she wants them
> to do. 
> 
> A. They take the job and an adventure begins...
> 
> B. They turn the job down, but when they leave the bar a kid being
> chased by K'Kree bowls into them and begs them to help him.  They
> do, and that leads to...
>   
>     1.  Fighting the K'Kree or
>     
>     2.  Hiding the kid and fast talking the K'Kree
>     
> ...Later the Kid tells them why the "Cows" were after him and leads
> them to "a patron" with a job offer.  If they take it, the adventure
> begins...
> 
> C. I'll let you think this one up. ;-> 

"Here, take this disc of sensitive information to your next stop.  Sneak it by 
the customs inspectors, the secret police, the PTA, the Boy Scouts, and *TRY* 
not to get your ass shot off.  Oh, by the way, we'll be giving you the usual 
and customary hudred credit honorarium, but we won't pay your expenses."
 
> See what I mean?  Anything can lead to adventure, and adventure
> leads to fun.  It's the GM's job to give the players an opportunity
> to go looking for the adventure, it's the players job to put their
> characters in the adventures way, and it's everybodies job to make
> the most of it when they find it.

*Snicker*  Now that we've *almost* got the boat, we get to wait for it to be repaired *AND* try and make some money on the side to cover expenses while the ramp rats & yard dogs finish up repainting the damned thing...

After the cops release it to us, of course...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 01:20:22 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: In Your Dreams! <g> (was: More Filthy Lucre: Mercenaries are  better than Merchants)

> >	4) Executive Officer
> >	Mercenary:  somewhere the Captain isn't, BLOWS STUFF UP
> >	Merchant:  repeats Captain's orders in loud voice
> 
> ...and gets everyone involved in hair-brained schemes of his on. 
> Also a "stringer" agent for some Intelligence Agency with all these
> agendas and missions that have nothing *directly* to do with trade. 

What, Kuzov's gettin a *promotion*????  The rest of the party can barely 
understand what he's saying when things are *calm*.  What they gonna do when 
things get *tense*????
 
> Any resemblance to current PC's in my AKUS game are completely
> coincidental...yeah right! ;->

Yeahright.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 01:58:10 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: OT, but inspired by Filthy Lucre thread

I was looking around on the Subsidized Merchant
 http://surf.to/traveller-trader ) pages and noticed that my CT stocks are a
bit low.  I guess it's time that I went looking for another collection to
"liberate".  So I thought I'd start by asking on the list if you know of any
collections of CT that might be languishing somewhere?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SwordWorlder
http://www.downport.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:52:06 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: No Accounting !

If you are running a merchant campaign, dont do accounting. Use Monopoly
money (countersign the back if you're paranoid).

One monopoly dollar equals a thousand credits ... use poker chips for the
small change.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 02:08:43 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: "The Merchant Game" (was: Filthy Lucre...) 

> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> > It's too bad that was your experience with a "merchant" game.  It
> > isn't mine, not anywhere near what I would call a merchant game.
> > 
> > Most of the games I have run over the years fall into the merchant
> > game category.  At least, the players are, or are attempting to be,
> > crew of a ship engaged in trade.  From your description, I think
> > that, might be, the only part of your experience that would match up
> > with mine...or my players...I HOPE!  ;->
> 
> I'll have to stick my 0.02 cr in here. Eris' PBEM is one of the best
> games I've ever played in, and it's (roughly) a mechant based game. (we
> will, too, Eris if we _ever_ get ahold of that damn ship!)

Boat is within reach, Tovarisch Kapitan.  <grin>
 
> Plenty of excitement and action, and my character, in roughly two years
> of playing (oh lordy, it _has_ been that long!! I just looked at
> Ricardo's original character sheet, it's dated 5/16/97) has fired his
> weapon for the first time just this week.

Been about 3, 4 months for me.
 
> It hasn't _seemed_ like two years...but Eris is right, we haven't spent
> much time at all on book keeping!

I've done some, but less than 5%.  And now that the boat is once again out of reach, it looks like he's gonna have to hustle to make some quick cash to fill his supercable contract...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 01:16:10 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

At 12:52 AM 5/26/99 -0500, you wrote:

>I'm on a deadline for SJG, so any ideas people have on this would be

>appreciated.

>

>What does a K'Kree acceleration couch (chair) look like? You know, the seats

>they sit in on the bridge of a ship...

>

>Any opinions on what would be best?

>


  Ok guys/gals be nice to me I am still new to this Email list....


  In front of me (It took me about 2hrs to sift through all my Traveller related game magazines) I have Challenge #28 which was put out by GDW. It has a pretty extensive article (BTW I didn't even know what a K'Kree was till I joined this list) called "K'Kree Starships: a human perspective" It describes a K'Kree merchant vessel in depth. They are Huge ships that waste most of there Volume for a "grazing" area that is quite large. It's a 6000tn ship with a 2-jump and a 1-G capability. and only has a standard Cargo capacity of 34tns.

  Now for what I found it for it describes the bridge of this ship as.....


 "The K'Kree bridge is larger than one might be on a human ship. Obviously, K'Kree are larger then men and they wish to be as comfortable as possible while on duty. The ceiling of the bridge is clear ceramic, giving the bridge crew a striking view of the stars around them. This also gives the room a very open feeling it would loose to walls and bulkheads."

  "The bridge area is characterized by its interesting K'Kree work stations. Each station is recessed into the floor (a metal floor in the bridge) into which the K'Kree sits with his four hind legs.This leaves his forelimbs free to operate the control panels spread out on the floor in front of each station."

  "The captains station is in the center of the bridge and can rotate as necessary. The navigational and engineering stations are fanned out in front of him. Scientific stations are located on either side of the bridge."


  I couldn't find any reference to G-Couches. But interestingly enough the fire control is located in the center of the "Simulated" grazing field by a central tree.


  (The above excerpt was from Issue Challenge magazine #28 page #23       )

  (paragraph 10 under the heading 'The Bridge" published by GDW.          )

  (Thanks to the authors  "Rob Caswell and Timothy B. Brown" which        )

  (I didn't know how to ask for there permission and hope they don't send )

  (lawyers after me. Thanks wherever you are.                             )


 Like I said I am new to this. 


  Hope this helps?

- -- 

   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet
Business

warlord@means.net |       At
<underline>http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby</underline> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 01:55:53 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Bio tech

At 05:10 AM 5/6/99 -0500, you wrote:

>At 02:45 AM 4/30/99 EDT, you wrote:

>>Has anyone done anything in Tx with biotech like that in EFC (Skrill, CVIs, 

>>ect)?

>>-Stephen

>>

>

>

>   I have been toying with the idea myself. I read an article in one of my

>Traveller mags (forgot which one) that discusses the TL for certain types

>of Bio/Cyber wear. I'll see if I can't find the article again and tell you

>where it is.

>


   Ok I finally found the article on Biotechnology.

 It is in the "Traveller Chronicle" #13. On page 32 with the Title 

  "Bio technology in Traveller" written by Matt Geisler. Its an extensive article 4 pages long breaking down all the advances in Biotechnology Levels (BTL) from BTL-8 to BTL-15. I think it was written so you can use it in all the forms of Traveller.

  Also I found the Article on Cyber Wear. its in "Traveller Chronicle" #9 on page #26 Titled "Hardware: New Cybernetics" written by Andrew Doull. It's 7 pages long and lists new stuff for Cyber's for the TNE rules.



  BTW I wish I had knew about this mag sooner, maybe my little contribution of the Subscription would have helped keep it going. All of them I have are real good reading. As far as I can tell from the web site http://members.aol.com/swrdknght/ttcinfo.htm  #13 was there last issue.

 If I am wrong someone please tell me...


 Joe

- -- 

   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet
Business

warlord@means.net |       At
<underline>http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby</underline> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 19:25:10 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned?

> Perhaps we can see Lucan as Caracalla, the son of Severus, who also
>killed his brother soon after the two came to power.  He had a similar
>character to Lucan's and was the last emperor before a long period of
>military anarchy.

Or you could try a reference to Pepin the Short and his two sons, though in
this case Charles didn't directly
It's amazing how few people have heard of a guy who ruled most of Europe for
nigh on fifty years.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:17:02 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller

> From: AveNelso@aol.com

> gmgoffin@pacbell.net writes:
> << 
>  How might he have achieved the Captain Needa Apology Effect?  
>   >>
>         Aww come on, Lucan is all mean and no style.  He would have just 
> jumped up and down screaming his lungs out about "treason and corruption" 
> until an ambitious underling or two would have done the honors and shot the
> offending officer on the spot.  I mean, he wasn't exactly subtle when he 
> gunned down his brother.

No, I was thinking of the more mature Lucan of the later years of the
Second Civil War.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 19:39:59 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Playing a free trader/merchant campaign (was: Filthy Lucre)

>One thing to watch out for... free trader campaigns can turn political.  If
>you don't like politics, you have to be careful how you handle it.
>(Pyanfar's (Captain of the Pride) motto is, when confronted with vastly
>intelligent, aggressive politics: Do something totally irrational and let
>the enemy think himself to death.)

Hey, that's exactly how I beat chess programs !


Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 04:33:04 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

>>What does a K'Kree acceleration couch (chair) look like? You know, the
>seats
>>they sit in on the bridge of a ship...
>>
>>Any opinions on what would be best?
>
>Have you ever seen a bull-milking cradle ?

If they build _bulls_ like they do around here, I don't EVEN need to know 
what this contraption looks like...

GC

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #679
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Friday, May 28 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 680



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Missiles and stuff
Re: "Traveller"-like Movies
Re: Toys of the Far Future
Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Filthy Lucre
Re: Running a good mercantile campaign
Re: Time Traveller...
Re: Missiles and stuff
Re: Bio-tech
Re: In Your Dreams <g>
re: Aliens Lines
RE: Missle acceleration
Re: No Accounting !
re: Filthy Lucre
Path of Tears query
Re: Earthlight
Re: Computer Technology
[Resend] campaign cartographer/dungeon designer
Re: Time Traveller...
Re: Bio tech
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files
Re: Running a good mercantile campaign
Re: Time Traveller...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 03:19:16 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Missiles and stuff

At 07:01 PM 5/25/99 +1100, you wrote:

>

>>From: Juliean Galak <<jg42@cornell.edu>

>>Subject: Re:Missiles and stuff

>>

>>At 10:17 AM 5/23/99 +1100, you wrote:

>>>My Gurps guru is designing something on these lines, but imagine if you

>>>have 10 reloads, 2 firing ports and 2 crewstations. You double your combat

>>>RoF, and lets face it, who could use all 70 reloads anyway ?

>>

>>While in PC situations you usually only need a couple of shots, remember

>>that in a protracted military situation a warship may need to expend

>>hundreds of missiles and maintain the ability to fire for hours at a time.

>>And at least IMTU, most ship weapons the PCs have started out as military

>>designs (whether surplus or just a "New! Special Civilian Model!").  So the

>>70+ reloads makes sense to me.

>

>The key to a successful missile attack is to overload the target's point

>defense. The number of missiles a target can deal with is often known as

>it's "saturation number". Generally speaking, a target can deal with up to

>it's saturation number until the cows come home, but saturation number plus

>one will equal one hit, saturation number plus two will equal two hits etc

>etc.

>

>Therefore, the key isnt so much sustainability of fire, but getting enough

>missiles onto the target in a small enough window of time to saturate their

>defenses and hurt them.

>

>Thus for starship combat, you want to maximise RoF at the expense of

>sustainability. Doing anything else than this just results in their

>point-defense crews getting target practice.

>

>Ian Whitchurch 

>

>


  I think a book I read, which I am trying to find again, bears somewhat on this. It was a "Honor Harington" something title. Where she is piloting a less capable ship against a far superior ship. I forget the specifics (bad memory and read too many books) but I know that how the different fire rates and load outs of the ships made a big difference in the outcome. I think she had more but slower rof and enemy had faster rof but less missiles. Or vise-versa.


 Its late and I babble.... :)


  BTW 

Has anyone tried making conversions of different genres (Like Starblasers/Robotech/Space Opera/Captain Harlock for example) into Traveler? I have been trying to find my Old notes on the readout of the ship Captain Harlock used that I made for traveler. BTW I used CT rules for it. And still play CT rules.


 Later

- -- 

   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet
Business

warlord@means.net |       At
<underline>http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby</underline> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:06:55 +0300
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies

> OK, how many of us thin Dark Star is the ultimate Traveller movie?  A 
> bunch of nut cases in a scout ship with a bomb only a Referee could 
> love.

	Grin. Dark Star had a rather unusual concept of atmospheric 
	re-entry.	

> Well, other than "Aliens", yep.

	"Screamers" (based on "Second Variety" by Philip K. Dick) would 
	have been quite good basis for a TNE campaign (post-rebellion 
	Virus era), but unfortunately all my players have seen it.

	http://us.imdb.com/Title?0114367

	PS. Paul Verhoeven is currently directing a film called "The 
	Hollow Man". In a lab scene they are showing some of our 
	real-life biomedical research images as background.

	They sent a very polite letter to my work partner asked for 
	permission of using some our 3D segmented images. The letter 
	included description of the film scene and the lines spoken when 
	out images are visible.

- -- 
      Antti Lahtinen                lahtinen@ee.tut.fi
      Researcher, MSc (Eng)         http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:40:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Toys of the Far Future

In mail you write:

>> From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>> Subject: Re: Toys of the Far Future (was Re: A plea for cinematic
>> restraint)
>> 
>> - -----Original Message-----
>> From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
>
>> >Hivers don't pay attention to their juveniles, so have no toy culture.
>> >Do Ael Yael have lots of flying toys?  I think a merchant would do well
>> >selling frisbees to them.  K'Kree are basically mammalian, like humans,
>> >Vargr, and Aslan, so I'd expect to see some things that are pleasant to
>> >hold, but as they are vegetarians, probably won't have stuffed animals
>> >-- too much like holding a corpse.
>> 
>> I don't see why this would be the case. Baby dolls have been popular among
>> humans for ages. Despite the fact that dolls are often positively creepy,
>> they are still massively popular... and very few people liken them to the
>> corpses of babies, although they share similar characteristics to corpses.
>
> Sorry, I wasn't very clear.  The K'Kree, being extreme vegetarians,
> might find stuffed animals and dolls too corpselike and creepy.  Vargr
> and Aslan and other carnivorous or omnivorous mammalians would probably
> have dolls and stuffed animals, which are pleasant for a juvenile to
> hold.

Actually, stuffed animals are a *very* recent introduction in the world
of toys. Teddy bears started after Teddy Roosevelt "rescued" an
orphaned bear cub. They were *widely* decried as perverting the
mothering instincts of young girls.

Toy animals that represent *working* animals (dogs, sheep, cows,
horses) or animals to be *hunted* are much older. But they tended to
not be cuddly. 

Dolls, on the other hand are very, very old. I'm not sure if they've
found any in Paleolithic sites, but I'd be willing to bet that they've
found them in Neolithic sites. Which would make them around 30,000
years old. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:49:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

In mail you write:

> Needa, to First Officer: "Get a shuttle ready. I shall go explain our
>    situation, and apologize to Lord Vader for losing them. In the meantime,
>    continue to scan the area."
> First Officer: "Yes, Captain Needa."
>
> The next time we see Captain Needa (a few scenes later) he is gasping his
> last breath out while Darth Vader uses the Force to strangle him.
>
> Vader: "Apology accepted, Captain Needa."
>
> Advancement in the upper management levels of the Imperial Starfleet is
> pretty quick.
>
> Lucan didn't have the Force, but any number of high tech tortures work just
> as well . . .

To quote from a famous Star Trek episode:

Spock: "Your agonizer, Mr Kyle."

>>What is MARS (other than the planet)?
>
> MARS -- Mobile Assault Rescue and Strike Division: This is the combat arm
> of the Morrow Project, made up of specialists who have pledged themselves
> to protect the Project and its personnel.

It's also the name of some sort of "combined force" unit (maybe real,
maybe made up). There was a comic about them in the late 60s early 70s.
It was from one of the smaller companies. 

It's *also* the name of a *real* military program. I think this one is
using ham radio operators to relay messages from isolated bases to
family members. And in wartime they cut in as a last resort comm backup.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:57:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Filthy Lucre

In mail you write:

>> If you play a Star Trek style game with everyone in active service
>> in the Navy or Scouts, then no money is not going to have much
>> impact, but yuck, who needs that.

> What's wrong with that? I run a campaign in which the PCs are a group of
> IISS scouts, and they're having a great time of it. Of course, the PCs
> are part of an ultra-secret intelligence unit within the IISS who pretty
> much have carte blanche to do what's necessary when the security of the
> Imperium is threatened. Which means they get to travel more or less where
> they want (with the odd assignment tossed their way), they don't have to
> worry about expenses (the IISS takes care of it), and they get to shoot
> things: drug dealers, the stormtroopers of a local dictator, terrorists...

I refer both of you to the scene in the book "Starship Troopers" where
Juan demands an inventory beforing accepting responsibility for a bunch
of gear. 

Even in the Scouts, you are going to have to account for equipment that
is lost, destroyed, or damaged. As well as consumables (such as ammo
and explosives) used. 

If the folks in the accounting department aren't happy with your
explanation, they will charge *you* for the cost of the items. And you
could get your pay docked for the rest of your unnatural life. 

This shouldn't happen often, but every once in a while, usually after
some "neat trick" your PCs that are actually serving will need to sit
down and come up with plausible explanations for things like where the
air raft went (they had to leave it with a native who rescued them from
someplace they can't admit to having been).

There are times when having to pay for your own gear is actually a
blessing. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:43:36 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Running a good mercantile campaign

At 17:32 27/05/1999 -0700, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:
>Ian or Katts wrote:
>> 
>
>> Another key is to create interesting and detailed cargos (*shameless plug
>> for my Extended Spec Trade rules for GT:FT*). These guys are carrying a
>> *huge* piano, twleve dtons of very valuable, exceedingly flammable
>> buckyballs (note to chemists ... is buckminsterfullerine flammable ?), and
>> about 8 dtons of house pets. Any time things get boring, you can toss in a
>> delicate situation ...
>
>Nope, buckyballs aren't overly flammble. In fact, soot from candle or
>acetylene flames are rich sources of naturally occurring fullerenes.
>They'll probably burn readily, though...the current cheap way of making
>them is to burn a carbon arc in helium, and chromatographing the soot.
>
>I don't think you could make them _exceedingly_ flammable, except by
>dissolving them in gasoline or something.
>
>An MSDS (http://www.carbon60.co.uk/pages/page9.html )I found for mixed
>fullerenes does not indicate flammability; and in fact mostly treats it
>the same as carbon black, which is not classed as flammable.

Just a thought. As a fine powder, if you transported it in tanks and
moved it between tanks by connecting a hose and pumping air through
then wouldn't the resulting mix be explosive if the hose ruptured and
the powder/air mix escaped?

Ok, so you should have removed the oxygen from the air used for pumping.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 07:52:21 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Time Traveller...

> 
> heavy water is Deuterium, but it might also include Tridium(sp?) 
> -Stephen
"Tritium".  do not forget the other nice little components such as
Lithium.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:03:49 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Missiles and stuff

Joe Kirby -

I once attempted to convert Space Opera to Classic Traveller as I have
both games.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 05:09:43 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Bio-tech

GURPS Bio-tech is a great source too...If you are running GT then it fits 
right in...Even if u are not..it is a good reference...it's just been 
reprinted...


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:34:31 +0300 (   )
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: In Your Dreams <g>

On Thu, 27 May 1999, Shade wrote:

> <snip of details of good character role-playing, that amazingly sound like
> some of the PCs in a game I did recently>
> 
> >Any resemblance to current PC's in my AKUS game are completely
> >coincidental...yeah right! ;->
> 
> This is the sort of thing that would have been ok with us.   I've just never
> heard of it being done before in " The Merchant Game ".  Its a bit more
> refreshing to know its out there.  Although, I think my players would NEVER
> go for it.  All they can remember is the " Bad GM " and his UPS in
> Spaaaaaacce campaign.

   I'm happy to announce, that the above is not the only wild and wacky
mercahnt campaign out there. I've played the assistant engineer in a Hard
Times Neworld sector merchant campaign for something like two years now
(both game time and real time), and in that time we have:

  Been thrown into a five mile deep canyon on a near-vacuum planet,
_whitout vacc-suits_, because someone thought we were pirates. (Just for
the record: we're not.)

  Rescued a 250-year old AI-construct of a legendary mechanist painter
from slavers. (For a pretty buck, I might add.)

  Gotten caught in three (yes, three) different local wars, and nearly
gotten ourselves killed each time.

  Escaped fron an embargoed starport dodging TL-7 tank cannon rounds
during one of the above. (Guess we won't be going back to Bianbi anytime
soon.)

  Recovered the remains of a Hiver/Gleruxian scout, that hit something
living inside a gas giant.

  And these are just the ones I can explain in a few compact sentances.
Free trading can indeed be a fun and interesting (not to mention
life-threatening) career. (Just as a side point: througout all this mayhem
we have been making huge profits all the time.)

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:58:18 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Aliens Lines

Dom wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>	It's funny, but I thought that they used "bug hunt" as a synonym for
>"wild goose chase", i.e., everytime they had gone on a "bug hunt" there
>turned out to be no real "bug" to hunt.  That's why they were really
>surprised by finding real "bugs" this time.

I thought it was also in the context of BEM - Bug Eyed Monsters - linked to
what Dave is suggesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No reason it couldn't have been both. The Colonial Marines are in
business to protect innocent colonists from the evil Bug Eyed Monsters*,
there could still be 99 false alarms for every dangerous alien encountered.

The Marines end up spending most of their time as constables, 
peacekeepers and corporate muscle (union-breaking, anyone?) - real
action against real people, though of course people who are very
outclassed (which will make the Marines very cocky).
The usual "bug hunt" turns into a wild goose chase, where they get
no opportunities to bust heads, feel macho and impress the farmer's
daughters.

Therefore you'll have the Marines thinking of BEM's when they go after
a xenomorph, but expecting to waste time and be bored.

Walt Smith

*They could get this job (anti-BEM squad) before any BEM's are ever
encountered. All it takes is an ex-Marine in the government, desperately
looking for a job for his beloved Corps now that there aren't any 
terrestrial enemies to shoot at.

I'm recalling the elaborate armament on the big exploration ship in
Disney's _The Black Hole_. No aliens had ever been encountered,
but the governments building the _Cygnus_(?) had visions of hordes
of BEM's lurking in the dark of space.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:09:42 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Missle acceleration

Rob Brady writes:
"That was where I misunderstood you - I thought you said 
the missle was _launched_ at 12Gs, not that it had an 
acceleration of 12Gs. (In other words, I thought IYTU it 
was only accelerated by the launcher)"

	In hind sight I can see that it was my fault, the
	way that I wrote it could have implied that it was
	accelerated by the launcher. Sorry for the 
	missunderstanding.

:-)
Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:22:01 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: No Accounting !

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
> If you are running a merchant campaign, dont do accounting. Use Monopoly
> money (countersign the back if you're paranoid).

I still have the ledger from a solo merchant campaign that I ran with a
buddy aboard ship back in 1984.  We covered about ten years of game time in
ten months and kept very detailed records.  He started with one ship and
three NPCs and grew to three ships and over twenty crew.  Most of his
"adventures" were the struggle against competitors or the challenge of
hammering out a trade deal.  He did use one ship to run some risky routes
outside of the Imperium and he did operate for awhile across the battle
lines of the FFW, but we stayed with sensible trade tables and still had a
good time.  The "glory" was that of building a going concern from humble
beginnings.  I admit that this probably would not have held the interest of
a group of players, but for one or two it can be quite satisfying.  Um...,
one small thing.  Did I mention that his wife was a CPA? ;-)


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SwordWorlder
http://www.downport.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:21:52 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Filthy Lucre

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Even in the Scouts, you are going to have to account for equipment that
is lost, destroyed, or damaged. As well as consumables (such as ammo
and explosives) used. 

If the folks in the accounting department aren't happy with your
explanation, they will charge *you* for the cost of the items. And you
could get your pay docked for the rest of your unnatural life. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Field Survey Scout: What do you mean I have to pay for that wrecked
Air/Raft? It wasn't my fault, how was I to know those natives had
anti-air weaponry?
Captain: You were in charge of that Air Raft, just like I'm in charge of
this ship. It was your responsibility.
Field Survey Scout: So, Sir, you're totally responsible for this Scout
Cruiser?
Captain: Yup. And if you knew the way Accounting gets on your butt, 
you'd know why a Captain goes down with his ship.

<G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:26:28 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Path of Tears query

Does anyone have this TNE book to hand and could tell me the tonnages of the
Manta class and Aurora class ships?

Also is the Manta a 'fueller' or 'fueler'?

Many thanks for any help.

tc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:35:55 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Earthlight

Bob with newborn writes:
"Wasn't that the battle that the colony used some kind of 
molten metal "beam" to shoot dow the enemy ships?"

	That's the one. Damn, it was good... I'll have to
	read it again some time.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 06:37:17 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

>From: SRKOALA@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Computer Technology
...
><< Not entirely true. The SQuID is a quantum device and was originally 
>produced in the 1980's
>  >>
>QSuID?

 "super-conducting quantum interference device" IIRC (?)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 23:34:35 +1000
From: "Andy Long" <andylong@bigpond.com>
Subject: [Resend] campaign cartographer/dungeon designer

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I'm looking at getting hold of CC2 and/or DD2 to map bits of MTU. Does
anyone on the list have experiences with either product they would
care to share?

TIA

Andy
====================================================
andrewlongl@hotmail.com 
OR andylongg@bigpond.com 
OR andy.long@fujitsu.com.au
Andrew Long		+61 (2) 9977 1460 (Home/Fax)
1/49 Osborne Road	+61 (414) 074 833 (Mobile)
Manly			+61 (2) 9887 9247 (Office)
NSW 2095
Australia
====================================================

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i

iQA/AwUBN04OvPtKvbPYMVxkEQI53gCfal1YlWhwqrW/vjnNWCxYLEKqwdsAnRtd
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=ldEo
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:39:49 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Time Traveller...

Stephen writes:
"heavy water is Deuterium, but it might also include 
Tridium(sp?)"

	Heavy water is water made up of Deuterium and Oxygen.
	Some Tritium might be found, but it is pretty rare.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:53:40 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: Bio tech

> From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
>    Ok I finally found the article on Biotechnology.
> 
>  It is in the "Traveller Chronicle" #13. On page 32 with the Title 
> 
>   "Bio technology in Traveller" written by Matt Geisler. Its an extensive article 4 pages long
>   breaking down all the advances in Biotechnology Levels (BTL) from BTL-8 to BTL-15. I think it
>   was written so you can use it in all the forms of Traveller.
> 
>   Also I found the Article on Cyber Wear. its in "Traveller Chronicle" #9 on page #26 Titled
>   "Hardware: New Cybernetics" written by Andrew Doull. It's 7 pages long and lists new stuff for
>   Cyber's for the TNE rules.

For those who enjoyed MegaTraveller, the Traveller's Digest #13 had 
an excellent article on the use of prosthetics and bionics as 
replacements for lost limbs, and detailed the rules needed to 
integrate cybernetics into your campaign.  (#14 dealt with cloning 
and regeneration, IIRC.)

Enjoy,
FLT

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 07:17:06 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files

File type DRWG Creator MD. I'm pretty sure those are MacDraw files.

But, I think they're irretrievably munged, as (at least with MacDraw Pro,
which I have) the native Drawing format has both a resource and data fork to
the file, unlike Pict files, which only have a data fork. The resource fork is
lost on conversion to a PC disk.

IAC I can't get them to open, and I've tried. :-( 


Paul Schirf wrote:
> 
> A number of files under the \Graphics\Deckplan\ subdirectory on the HIWG CD
> have no file extension.  The first six bytes of the files contain hex
> values: 44 52 57 47 4D 44 ...  which I read as DRWGMD.  Does anyone want to
> take a stab at identifying the filetype?
> 
> Paul Schirf
> Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:34:45 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Running a good mercantile campaign

I picked up a book last night in a half-price book store's
roleplaying games section. The title is "Gunrunning For
Fun and Profit" and the author describes his career as a
gunrunner. The problem is...he really *was* a gunrunner!

The book is a serious writing and I don't have a clue
how it ended up in the RPG section.

Incredible read, though. Lots of background color for
one of my NPCs.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 07:57:53 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Time Traveller...

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> 
> heavy water is Deuterium, but it might also include Tridium(sp?)
> -Stephen

Tritium, or more correctly, tritiated water. In this case, however, and in
general use, heavy water refers to D2O, deuterated water, as the heavy water
was purified from ordinary water, and the tritium content of ordinary water
(at that point in history) was zero; it is not a naturally occuring isotope.

It would be microscopically higer today, as we've now had working nuclear
reactors for the last 65 years or so, and considerable production of tritium,
some of which would have to have escaped into the environment. TMI, for
instance, released several curies of radiation (IIRC) most of which was
tritium gas.

Tritium is produced in reactors, deuterium, as it is a stable isotope, is
purified from ordinary water. It's relatively cheap, I used to buy 100 mls of
it (99.99% D purity) for < $50-$100 (it's been a long time, so my numbers may
be way off) We used it for a aqueous solvent for proton NMR work.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #680
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 28 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 681



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re:Missiles and stuff
Computer Display Eyepiece Prototype
Mercantile Campaigns
Another K'Kree controls question
Re: "Traveller"-like Movies
Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data)
Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...
Re: T4 Ship Design Question
Very useful resource
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #674
Satellites as Main Worlds
Re: NPC quips in Traveller
Re: NPC quips in Traveller
Re: Intro for new players
Re: Path of Tears query
Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data)
Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data)
Re: Time Traveller...
Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data) 
Magazine article query
Re: Time Traveller...
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned?
Re: T4 Ship Design Question
Re: Intro for new players
It's scary what you can find on the net (was Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data) )

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:14:07 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re:Missiles and stuff

>>>> (begin quoted material)
<snip>
The key to a successful missile attack is to overload the target's
point
defense. The number of missiles a target can deal with is often known
as
it's "saturation number". Generally speaking, a target can deal with up
to
it's saturation number until the cows come home <snip>

Ian Whitchurch 
>>>> (end quoted material)
In other words, you need to pick a time to attack when the cows are
coming home!  (This is Wagon Train in space isn't it?)  In other words,
you would want to attack a carrier when its fighter wing was _returning_
from a strike, and you just have the CAP to deal with rather than the
whole shipload of fighters.  Anytime you have sub-vehicles coming to or
leaving a ship there will be "dead spots" where that ship won't want to
fire into, and you can use those spots for attack purposes.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:25:00 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Computer Display Eyepiece Prototype

A neat little device which could be the prototype technology
for Traveller's eyepiece computer display is described at:

http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9905/21/tinydisp.idg/index.html

A simple, yet elegant design using ancient optics (i.e. a
magnifying glass).

Check it out; it'll be commercially available next year.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:30:06 EDT
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Mercantile Campaigns

Greetings:

For inspriation on mercantile campaigns, take a look at BITS 101 Cargos 
(which I hope they will expand by another volume). Merchant campaigns don't 
have to be boring. Shipping items from point a to point b can be full of 
surprises...the dead groats you expected are actually live groats...something 
hatches in the shipping container...and there's always...






PIRATES!

Just kidding!

For fictional sources, in addition to those already suggested, I would take a 
look at Andre Norton's "Solar Queen" and "Free Trader" stories. I would also 
look at Elizabeth Moon's stuff (the "Sporting Chance" books--three now, I 
think and the other series set in the same universe--two books, I think). 
While not a merchant campaign, it does give you ideas. 

The game should not be just bookkeeping. That would be like running a merc 
campaign where you are constantly in battle, rolling dice for damage results. 
A merc campaign or a merchant campaign or a exploration campaign has to be 
well rounded!

Good luck!

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 99 15:36:34 +0000
From: igor@truserve.com
Subject: Another K'Kree controls question

First of all, thank you everyone who offered their advice.

My AM2 is at home, and I'm putting some last touches on the K'Kree Merchant deckplans - 
can anyone tell me how big a K'Kree workstation should be? 2 yards? bigger? Smaller?

A quick answer would be appreciated - thank ye kindly...

Andy A.
igor@truserve.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:24:05
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies

One that hasn't been mention here yet is "Tremors", which I used for a very
nice scenario a couple of years back.  Players are asked to go check on an
outlying settlement.  When they get there, they find a few bodies on the
roofs of buildings, where they eviodently starved to death.  After landing
their air/raft, they find out why the people were up on the roof.  A
gravoid eats the vehicle.  Now the *characters* are up on the rofs...
heheheh...
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:28:01
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data)

At 11:55 PM 5/27/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 99-05-18 12:45:34 EDT, you write:
>
><< Heheh. One guy I knew who went to a Jesuit school for Grades 6-12
> became a very polite SEAL. >>
>
>I can see it now:
>SEAL: "I'm so very sorry, but I have to kill you now, do you want a blind 
>fold?"

Heh.  When I was a saniper, my partenr and I would do those annoying,
overpolite Disney critters..cna't rmember their names, but they were gophers.

"May I take the shot?"

"But of course, he is in range you know."

"Why, thank you!"

"Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure."
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:30:55
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Important: K'Kree controls opinion...

At 01:16 AM 5/28/99 -0500, you wrote:

>  Ok guys/gals be nice to me I am still new to this Email list....

<snip>

> Like I said I am new to this. 
>
>  Hope this helps?

Wow.  If you're new, I can't wait to see what you're like when you get up
to speed!

That was an excellent bit of research, welcome to the list!
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:33:16
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: T4 Ship Design Question

At 10:13 PM 5/27/99 -0500, you wrote:
>When designing ships using FF&Sv2, one has the option of adding armor
>not only to the hull, but also to individual components.  In your
>individual/collective opinion(s), is there any point in adding a
>centimeter or two of armor to, for instance, the power plant of an
>already-armored ship?

If you have the volume, and the weight doesn't affect your planned
acceleration, why not?
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:06:41
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Very useful resource

A very nice list I've gotten on is the Cool fact of the Day list

 http://www.tlk-lists.com/join/

This list sends out, well, cool facts.  Things like the thickest skin in
the world, a species of ant that swims, and advances in a breathable
liquid.. all with links to more indepth articles.




- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:20:15 +0100
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #674

>I"ve been trying to get a copy of World Builder Delux to install on my
>PC, I'm running Win95 so that's not the problem, but it keeps giving me
>error messages after a few seconds of installing.

>Anyone know what's wrong?  Anyone else experiencing this problem?

Derek, I have no idea what is wrong. You seem to be the only person to be
experiencing difficulties. How does the error manifest itself?

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:52:59 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Satellites as Main Worlds

Greetings, all

I'm trying to help Stuart Ferris in an upgrade to his
World Builders' Deluxe software and am trying to find
all "canon" references to main worlds which have been
defined by GDW/DGP as a satellite around another
planet/gas giant.

Does anyone know if this has been done before? If so,
where can I get a copy of this info? If not, does anyone
remember any such references?

I'm already searching through my Traveller collection
but it's an extremely slow process, thanks to 
RealLife(tm) priorities.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. BTW, right now
conflicts between GDW and DGP data are being settled
in GDW's favor.

Thanks!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 00:35:32 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>While clearly a sociopathic fratricide and regicide (after all,
>unconfirmed or not, Varian _was_ emperor when he was killed) Lucan, from
>the description, was quite cool and collected when he shot everyone in
>that room.

Damnable treasonous lies spread by Margaret's allies. Strephon was still
emperor when Lucan murdered his brother. Strephon lives!

;-)

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:03:30 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> >While clearly a sociopathic fratricide and regicide (after all,
> >unconfirmed or not, Varian _was_ emperor when he was killed) Lucan, from
> >the description, was quite cool and collected when he shot everyone in
> >that room.
> 
> Damnable treasonous lies spread by Margaret's allies. Strephon was still
> emperor when Lucan murdered his brother. Strephon lives!

Facsinating point of succession law, then...if one kills the Emperors
stand-in to claim the throne, using the Right of Assasination, when
everyone, Moot included, believes that the person you killed _is_ truly
the Emperor, what happens?

Had Dulinor succeeded as he had planned, and won the day in the Palace,
he would be legally Emperor, confirmed by the Moot(at gunpoint or not,
it matters little), would he not? 

This would be _particularly_ relevant if Strephon's double was really a
clone...genetic analysis on the corpse would 'prove' he was indeed
Strephon.


Of course, this brings up yet _another_ variation on the scenario:
Dulinor succeeds, Lucan _does_ kill his brother, and claims that he is
the rightful heir to the throne. He would have to flee, and raise his
armies away from Core. 

Since he so desperately wants power, would he flee to rimward and strike
a deal with the Solomani Confederation? It would make sense, he wants
the throne, the Solomani want Terra back, but probably aren't all that
interested in expanding further into the Imperium...right now, that
is...they're still trying to rebuild from the last war, and if they
retake Terra it will be a cheap, but important morale building victory.

Then rumors start popping up that Strephon is really alive, then more
substantial reports, then some people take up arms to 'restore the
rightful Emperor'

The Rebellion wouldn't have become the all-encompassing war it did, but
there would be two low level insurgencies happening, Lucan, backed by
the Solomani, and Strephon, backed by, who? 

The Zhodani, in return for data from Longbow II. After all, hard data on
what was about to engulf them (The Empress Wave) would give them
desperately needed time to plan ahead; Strephon might even be given
assurances that the Zhodani didn't really _want_ the Imperium. 

Norris could well have supported him, too, had Strephon proven his
identity to him. (relatively easy, considering Norris' aide Dilgaadiin
is a telepath) This would have provided him a strong base of support in
the Deneb. I don't know whether Dulinor would have appointed Norris Duke
of Deneb, but I doubt it...of all people, Dulinor does NOT want a smart,
popular Archduke beneath him. Never can tell what'll happen the next
time he comes to visit, after all!

Brzk and Margaret's factions would likely never exist, Daibei and the
Vilani wouldn't have seceded.

And all the while, Dulinor's plans are being sidetracked by matters he
didn't think he would have to deal with, delaying his vision of
integrating the Imperium into a state more responsive to it's citizen's
needs. (or extending Imperial tyranny, depending on whose propaganda you
listen to) He extends Imperial control over the member worlds just as
he'll need to institute more repressive measures due to the growing
insurgencies.

Nice little Imperium we've got here :->

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 19:22:44 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Intro for new players

I do have such a thing and will be happy to send it to you. As yet, it is
not complete and comes in several HTML pages. Please can you let me know
whether the HTML will be fine, or if you want me to convert it for you.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Cravens, Carl <carl.cravens@lsil.com>
To: 'TML' <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: 28 May 1999 00:31
Subject: Intro for new players


>I'm looking for a good set of introduction materials for new players who
>have never played in the Classic/GURPS Traveller universe before.  Oddly,
>I'm not finding anything on the net after three days of looking.
>
>I'm not fond of handing my players a chunk of Library Data...  I find it
>rather annoying to read random bits in alphabetical order myself.  I'd like
>a concise history, and a general description of the state of things (in the
>1120 alternate timeline of GURPS Traveller).  Anybody know where I can find
>such a thing?
>
>If not, does anybody have ideas on writing such a thing?  It looks like I
>may have to write it myself and I wouldn't mind input.
>
>--
>Carl D Cravens
>carl.cravens@lsil.com
>316-636-8078
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 19:44:43 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Path of Tears query

- -----Original Message-----
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk <Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 28 May 1999 14:35
Subject: Path of Tears query


>
>
>Does anyone have this TNE book to hand and could tell me the tonnages of
the
>Manta class and Aurora class ships?
>
>Also is the Manta a 'fueller' or 'fueler'?
>
>Many thanks for any help.
>
>tc
>


Aurora Class:
600 DT Open Frame

with eternal grapples for:
50 DT Cutter
30 DT Craft
400 DT Fuel Skimmer (Manta)
4x100 DT Modules
1x200 DT Module
1x400 DT Module

Total DT (Full Load of Modules & Craft): = 2080

As a Brit, I would plump for fueller....

HTH

Matt

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
visit my web site =>      www.akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:52:48 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data)

<Hasan snip!>

>Heh.  When I was a saniper, my partenr and I would do those annoying,
>overpolite Disney critters..cna't rmember their names, but they were gophers.

<Hasan snip!>

Those were Warner Brothers characters. ;-)

The Disney version was Chip and Dale (and a poor version, at that -- IMHO,
YMMV).

Ciao,

Joseph "yikes and away!!!" Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 19:53:00 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: 28 May 1999 16:42
Subject: Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data)



<snip>

>Heh.  When I was a saniper, my partenr and I would do those annoying,
>overpolite Disney critters..cna't rmember their names, but they were
gophers.
>
>"May I take the shot?"
>
>"But of course, he is in range you know."
>
>"Why, thank you!"
>
>"Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure."
>--


Sound's like Chip 'n' Dale to me (omigod...I must've had a wellspent
childhood <g>)

regards

Matt

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
visit my web site =>      www.akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To use the Force on a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a Lightsabre is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:47:43 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Time Traveller...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> It would be microscopically higer today, as we've now had working nuclear
> reactors for the last 65 years or so, and considerable production of
tritium,
> some of which would have to have escaped into the environment. TMI, for
> instance, released several curies of radiation (IIRC) most of which was
> tritium gas.

Small amounts of tritium are released on a daily basis from operating
commercial nuke plants.  Their licenses give "allowable" levels, which they
stay well below.  The release data is logged and reported, so may be
available under "right to know" laws from the NRC.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SwordWorlder
http://www.downport.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:13:11 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data) 

> At 11:55 PM 5/27/99 EDT, you wrote:
> >In a message dated 99-05-18 12:45:34 EDT, you write:
> >
> ><< Heheh. One guy I knew who went to a Jesuit school for Grades 6-12
> > became a very polite SEAL. >>
> >
> >I can see it now:
> >SEAL: "I'm so very sorry, but I have to kill you now, do you want a blind 
> >fold?"
> 
> Heh.  When I was a saniper, my partenr and I would do those annoying,
> overpolite Disney critters..cna't rmember their names, but they were gophers.
> 
> "May I take the shot?"
> 
> "But of course, he is in range you know."
> 
> "Why, thank you!"
> 
> "Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure."

Chip and Dale.  So howcome you *MISSED* them?  And why didn't you take out Barney while you were at it?????????

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:35:06 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Magazine article query

Hello to the Traveller Brain Trust!  I would like to tap the collective
memory / library data of the list.  I have a photocopy of an article named
"Zentag Connection".  The authors name is J.D. Webster and the date is
December 1981.  Oddly enough, though, the name of the magagine where it was
published does not appear.  Although I have a HUGE list of articles covering
MANY years and magazines, this article does not appear anywhere in my list.
Can anyone point me toward the solution to this mystery?  My heartfelt
thanks in advance.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SwordWorlder
http://www.downport.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 23:04:40 +0100
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Time Traveller...

In message <61186b92.247f6990@aol.com>, SRKOALA@aol.com writes
>In a message dated 99-05-27 09:12:24 EDT, you write:
>
><< The PCs in the adventure where aliens and looked like gnomes of Norse myth.
> The heavy water (Deuterium for the p-plant?) was of course up in the
> Telemarken where it was being readied for transport to the German atomic
> bomb program. In reallife(tm) the allies tried bombing the plant and when
> the germans tried shipping a couple of railroad cars full of heavy water
> the Norse resistance blew the ferry up and sank it. Thus no atombomb for mr
> Adolf. >>
>
>heavy water is Deuterium, but it might also include Tridium(sp?) 
>-Stephen

Heavy water is deuterium oxide, D2O.  Water is protium oxide, H2O
(predominantly).  Tritium oxide occurs as a result of atmospheric
nuclear testing, IIRC, and is radioactive.
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 22:57:23 +0100
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned?

In message <374DD7A8.8B4E4A06@pharmacy.arizona.edu>, Bruce Johnson
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes
>While the
>original Tricky Dick did kill the boy Princes, 

Allegedly.

The future King Henry had as much reason to want them dead.

A verdict of "Not proven" I think (summed up by someone as "the jury
thinks you might have done it, but the prosecution couldn't prove it,
and don't do it again").
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 10:44:32 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: T4 Ship Design Question

Date sent:      	Thu, 27 May 1999 22:13:12 -0500
From:           	Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>

>When designing ships using FF&Sv2, one has the option of adding armor
>not only to the hull, but also to individual components.  In your
>individual/collective opinion(s), is there any point in adding a
>centimeter or two of armor to, for instance, the power plant of an
>already-armored ship?

I think the simplest answer is to compare what happens if a det laser/PA
hits the powerplant or if it hits the small craft bay. I always design my
warships with thin basic armour and then thicken it up over the vitals. Its
much more important at lower TL (when armour is just so much bulkier
and heavier).


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 19:13:42 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Intro for new players

- ----------
> From: Mark Preston <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Intro for new players
> Date: Friday, 28 May, 1999 2:22 PM
> 
> I do have such a thing and will be happy to send it to you. As yet, it is
> not complete and comes in several HTML pages. Please can you let me know
> whether the HTML will be fine, or if you want me to convert it for you.
> 
Is there any chance you could find a web page to put it up on?  I'd like to
see this if possible, since I'm doing something similar for my new GT
campaign.  Mine may be less generally applicable though, since I'm
compressing the history of the Imperium a lot.  I want to maintain the
Milieu 1100 setting, but move things like the Civil Wars into the much more
recent past.  For example, the Civil Wars are going to be only about
150-200 years in the past and the renewed imperial presence in the Marches
less than 100.  I think this will give things more of a sense of urgency,
without tearing the whole structure apart like the Rebellion/Virus did.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:29:11 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: It's scary what you can find on the net (was Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data) )

THE GOOFY GOPHERS
While the characters were originally conceived by Bob Clampett, the first
cartoon featuring the pair, The Goofy Gophers (1947), wound up being
directed by Arthur Davis. Clampett had finished recording the soundtrack,
but animation had not been completed when he left the studio in 1945.

The characters were based partly on the super-polite Edward Everett Horton
and Franklin Pangborn, including their rather "prissy" mannerisms, and also
on Alphonse and Gaston, two early comic strip characters created by F.P.
Opper who were also super-polite. Mel Blanc and Stan Freberg provided the
characters' voices.

The gophers have come to be known as "Mac 'n' Tosh" -- apparently in a spoof
of the Disney characters "Chip 'n' Dale" -- but these names was never used
in the classic era cartoons.

Filmography:

The Goofy Gophers (Davis, 1947)
Two Gophers From Texas (Davis, 1948)
A Ham in a Role (McKImson, 1949)
A Bone for a Bone (Freleng, 1951)
I Gopher You (Freleng, 1954)
Pests for Guests (Freleng, 1955)
Lumber Jerks (Freleng, 1955)
Gopher Broke (McKimson, 1958)

ObTrav: The Imperial Encyclopedia. We are all familiar with the Imperial
Encyclopedia, it introducing us to many aspects of the official Traveller
setting. How is the Encyclopedia used in actual play, though? Is it an
in-depth overview of everything in human knowledge (like the Library of
Brin's Startide Rising universe)? Or is a much more fallible edition, with
more in common with the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?

How big is the full edition of the Encyclopedia, anyway? Will it fit onboard
a single ship's computer?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #681
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 29 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 682



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data)
Path Of Tears query.
World Builder Delux
Re: World Builder Delux 
MT Batteries: rule question
Subject: Satellites as Main Worlds
Re: CJ Cherryh
Re: Time Traveller...
Re: Time Traveller...
Re: Magazine article query
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files
Toronto Traveller Get-Together
Re: "Traveller"-like Movies
Re: Fighters
Re: Mercantile campaigns
Re: Missiles and stuff
Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Running a good mercantile campaign
Re: Time Traveller...
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned?
Re: Filthy Lucre
Re: Satellites as Main Worlds
RL computers used in space
Re: NPC quips in Traveller
Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data)
Naval Architecture in Gurps Traveller
Re: Missiles and stuff
Re: Running a good mercantile campaign
Re: questions on Rogue CharGen

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 19:53:21 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data)

In a message dated 5/28/99 2:53:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
yikes@evansville.net writes:

<< 
 >Heh.  When I was a saniper, my partenr and I would do those annoying,
 >overpolite Disney critters..cna't rmember their names, but they were 
gophers.
 
 <Hasan snip!>
 
 Those were Warner Brothers characters. ;-)
 
 The Disney version was Chip and Dale (and a poor version, at that -- IMHO,
 YMMV). >>

	Their names were Mac and Tosh, the gopher twins


				Dave N

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:09:35 -0700
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Path Of Tears query.

Traveller-digest wrote:

> Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:26:28 +0100
> From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
> Subject: Path of Tears query
>
> Does anyone have this TNE book to hand and could tell me the tonnages of the
> Manta class and Aurora class ships?
>
> Also is the Manta a 'fueller' or 'fueler'?
>
> Many thanks for any help.
>

Manta = 400dt's "Fueler"

Aurora = 600dt's empty.  Load out up to 2080dt's

DS

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:30:42 -0700
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: World Builder Delux

Okay it loads up the first setup screen that vanishes the computer beeps
and it says Invalid Command Line Parameter, Intallation Halted.

Okay, just figured out what the problem was, thought I'd try something
else for a change so I unzipped it into the same directory that I'd
DL'ed it into and it worked.  If you unzip it into a different directory
it doesn't like that.

DS

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 21:05:06 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: World Builder Delux 

> Okay it loads up the first setup screen that vanishes the computer beeps
> and it says Invalid Command Line Parameter, Intallation Halted.
> 
> Okay, just figured out what the problem was, thought I'd try something
> else for a change so I unzipped it into the same directory that I'd
> DL'ed it into and it worked.  If you unzip it into a different directory
> it doesn't like that.

Oy vey...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:41:33 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: MT Batteries: rule question

A player of mine is designing a vehicle, using MT rules, that has
batteries as a secondary power source. The chart for batteries says
this:

Storage is in megawatt-hours stored in 0.001 kilolitre of battery. Price
is in credits per 0.001 kilolitre of battery. Weight is per 0.001 ton
per kilolitre. Volume is 0.001 kilolitre per 0.001 tons.

Now, can someone explain what the last sentence is for? You pick the
volume of battery that you want, and calculate storage, price, and
weight based on that volume. Why have the last sentence?

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 21:37:39 -0400
From: "Judith Carlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Subject: Satellites as Main Worlds

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>

Greetings, all

I'm trying to help Stuart Ferris in an upgrade to his
World Builders' Deluxe software and am trying to find
all "canon" references to main worlds which have been
defined by GDW/DGP as a satellite around another
planet/gas giant.

Does anyone know if this has been done before? If so,
where can I get a copy of this info? If not, does anyone
remember any such references?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I would suggest visiting The Open Cavemouth, at pixie.simplenet.com, Martyn
Wheeler's site. His extensive Astrographic Data is extensively annotated to
designate what is cannon (and from which period) and what he uses in his TU.
Main satellite worlds shown, as every system is worked out.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:57:53 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: CJ Cherryh

Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com> wrote

> (And it's pronounced "cherry".  Her parents and brother don't have the 'h'.
> Seems it offended her sensibilities to be a woman named "cherry".) 

IIRC What CJ Cherryh herself said in the intro
to one of her books was that her publisher
or agent suggested she change it because
Carolyn Cherry sounded like the name of a 
romance author not a science fiction author
and that this could hurt her sales.

It did not offend her sensibilities it hurt
her chances of being published & selling well.

PS: Carl was quite right to recommend Cherryh,
especially the Chanur series.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 23:10:41 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Time Traveller...

In a message dated 99-05-28 18:11:17 EDT, you write:

<< Heavy water is deuterium oxide, D2O.  Water is protium oxide, H2O
 (predominantly).  Tritium oxide occurs as a result of atmospheric
 nuclear testing, IIRC, and is radioactive. >>

So thats why Deuterium was chosen over Tritium for the Tokamak reactors.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 23:17:57 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Time Traveller...

In a message dated 99-05-28 11:00:12 EDT, you write:

<< Tritium is produced in reactors, deuterium, as it is a stable isotope, is
 purified from ordinary water. It's relatively cheap, I used to buy 100 mls of
 it (99.99% D purity) for < $50-$100 (it's been a long time, so my numbers may
 be way off) We used it for a aqueous solvent for proton NMR work. >>

what do you use an "aqueous solvent for proton NMR work" for? and what is 
"proton NMR work?"
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 20:24:55 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Magazine article query

>From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
>Subject: Magazine article query
...
>"Zentag Connection".  The authors name is J.D. Webster and the date is
>December 1981.  Oddly enough, though, the name of the magagine where it was
>published does not appear.  Although I have a HUGE list of articles covering
>MANY years and magazines, this article does not appear anywhere in my list.

  "Adventure Gaming" 1/6, 12/81; the same issue found cheap and distributed
free by Mr. Spieker last year. More importantly, it also has Mr. Millers 8
page adventure "Stranded on Arden" and B:4+ -style chargen for "Rebels,
Insurgents, & Partisans" (R.D. Stuart).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 23:28:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files

>File type DRWG Creator MD. I'm pretty sure those are MacDraw files.
>
>But, I think they're irretrievably munged, as (at least with MacDraw Pro,
>which I have) the native Drawing format has both a resource and data fork to
>the file, unlike Pict files, which only have a data fork. The resource fork is
>lost on conversion to a PC disk.
>
>IAC I can't get them to open, and I've tried. :-(

Neither can I, and I sent Bryan the files in the first place. I think his
PC stripped off the resource fork. I have the original files, of course...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 23:28:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Toronto Traveller Get-Together

Seeing as Julien's up here in Brampton, is anyone interested in getting
together of Saturday (May 29)?

I would suggest either Sci-Fi Cafe (for the convenience and smoke-free
nature, not the rude owner), or a nice little Indian restaurant in Richmond
Hill, but I'm open to suggestions. Smoke-free is essential (Julien's
girlfriend has a nasty allergy).

Give me a call at 905-770-4016 if you're interested.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 23:41:34 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies

In a message dated 99-05-28 11:41:40 EDT, you write:

<< One that hasn't been mention here yet is "Tremors", which I used for a very
 nice scenario a couple of years back.  Players are asked to go check on an
 outlying settlement.  When they get there, they find a few bodies on the
 roofs of buildings, where they eviodently starved to death.  After landing
 their air/raft, they find out why the people were up on the roof.  A
 gravoid eats the vehicle.  Now the *characters* are up on the rofs...
 heheheh... >>

Hope they got a comm link to the ship.  BTW how did the characters solve the 
problem?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 11:03:51 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fighters

>From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
>Subject: Re:Missiles and stuff

>In other words, you need to pick a time to attack when the cows are
>coming home!  (This is Wagon Train in space isn't it?)  In other words,
>you would want to attack a carrier when its fighter wing was _returning_
>from a strike, and you just have the CAP to deal with rather than the
>whole shipload of fighters.  Anytime you have sub-vehicles coming to or
>leaving a ship there will be "dead spots" where that ship won't want to
>fire into, and you can use those spots for attack purposes.

The problem with this scenario is that fighters just dont work in
anti-miltary ship roles without torpedos.

Three key elements cripple fighters for military roles.

The first is the square-cube law. The square-cube law means that the same
commitment of mass as a percentage of ship mass will provide more armour
for a bigger ship.

The second element is the mejajoulage limit on lasers - it is simple to
build a big ship whose armour is proof against lasers. Yes, you can try to
scrub the surface, but that is what redundant sensors are for. A related
fact is the fact that length is the main determinant of effective range for
PAWs and Meson Guns.

The third element is nuclear dampers. A fighter cannot, generally speaking,
carry a nuke damper, which makes them excessivly vulnerable to detonation
laser nuclear missiles.

Now, if fighters do not carry spinal mounts and nuclear dampers, then they
will be essentially unable to harm military ships. There may be a role for
'defensive' fighters - rapid fire laser platforms, designed to avoid the
hardpoint limit for point defense lasers, but these will stay within the
protective envelope of the 'real ships' nuclear dampers.

The analogy for fighters in the Traveller universe is not the torpedo boats
of the 19th century, or their cousins the bomb-, torpdeo- and
missile-carrying aircraft of the 20th century. It is the coastal gunboats
of the late 20th century, useful for police and customs role, but on no
account to be put anywhere near the line of battle.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 11:17:31 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Mercantile campaigns

>From: Diespamer@aol.com
>Subject: Mercantile Campaigns
>
>PIRATES!
>
>Just kidding!

An example of where pirates are viable is somewhere like Trexalon's
asteroid belts.

Trexalon (District 268-1339) is a pop 8, TL 12/GT10 independant world with
3 asteroid belts. It is outside the Imperium, and is therefore limited to
it's own defenses.

Now, imagine you have found a workable site on an asteroid somewhere in
those belts. It is 3 AU from the mainworld. Ten megacredits or so will buy
a couple of fusion guns to protect the actual mining site, and it isnt that
hard to put most of the facility underground to defend against bombardment.

The mainworld should be able to detect traffic in or near that asteroid,
but it will take at least a day to respond. This is probably long enough to
defend against an actual raid on the site.

If you choose to develop the site, then anyone coming there would know that
they are risking meeting up with someone they'd rather not meet. Therefore,
they are going to have to be paid to take that risk. Rather than paying
them Cr 725 to ship the output to your market on Collace, you offer a flat
Cr 1500.

This is pretty bloody tempting if you own an upgunned Far Trader.

Therefore, all conditions seem to be met to allow piracy ...

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 00:53:11 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Missiles and stuff

In a message dated 99-05-28 04:47:54 EDT, you write:

<<   I think a book I read, which I am trying to find again, bears somewhat 
on this. It was a "Honor Harington" something title. Where she is piloting a 
less capable ship against a far superior ship. I forget the specifics (bad 
memory and read too many books) but I know that how the different fire rates 
and load outs of the ships made a big difference in the outcome. I think she 
had more but slower rof and enemy had faster rof but less missiles. Or 
vise-versa. >>

Honor Amung Enemies, how ever it may be spelled.  If you want a game that 
includes that try out Starfire, the best space war game out there.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 01:00:42 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

In a message dated 99-05-28 07:15:59 EDT, you write:

<< >>What is MARS (other than the planet)?
 >
 > MARS -- Mobile Assault Rescue and Strike Division: This is the combat arm
 > of the Morrow Project, made up of specialists who have pledged themselves
 > to protect the Project and its personnel. >>

Morrow Project?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 01:06:03 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Running a good mercantile campaign

In a message dated 99-05-28 07:45:51 EDT, you write:

<< Just a thought. As a fine powder, if you transported it in tanks and
 moved it between tanks by connecting a hose and pumping air through
 then wouldn't the resulting mix be explosive if the hose ruptured and
 the powder/air mix escaped?
 
 Ok, so you should have removed the oxygen from the air used for pumping. >>

Are you thinking of an FAE? a little fuel a lot of O2, now all we need is a 
heat source...
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 01:11:13 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Time Traveller...

In a message dated 99-05-28 07:46:48 EDT, you write:

<< > heavy water is Deuterium, but it might also include Tridium(sp?) 
 > -Stephen
 "Tritium".  do not forget the other nice little components such as
 Lithium. >>

Lithium? Isn't that a bit heavy for what we want?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 17:25:22 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned?

><johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes
>>While the original Tricky Dick did kill the boy Princes,
>
>Allegedly.

Not even allegedly, really.

Everything I've seen suggests he had someone else do the deed for him, the
most common suggestion being a certain mercenary captain whose name I've
temporarily forgotten.

One source even suggests they were never actually killed, just walled up
alive.

>The future King Henry had as much reason to want them dead.

Of course, most people think Richard is a nasty sort with a physical
deformity because of Shakespeare's propaganda, in fact he was physically
able and probably a much nicer person than Henry.

I actually like John M.Fords version in "The Dragon Waiting", where they
were killed because they were vampires.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 02:02:42 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Filthy Lucre

In a message dated 99-05-28 09:34:39 EDT, you write:

<< Field Survey Scout: What do you mean I have to pay for that wrecked
 Air/Raft? It wasn't my fault, how was I to know those natives had
 anti-air weaponry?
 Captain: You were in charge of that Air Raft, just like I'm in charge of
 this ship. It was your responsibility.
 Field Survey Scout: So, Sir, you're totally responsible for this Scout
 Cruiser?
 Captain: Yup. And if you knew the way Accounting gets on your butt, 
 you'd know why a Captain goes down with his ship. >>

Hehe, thats a good one! To much paper work other wise.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 02:00:35 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Satellites as Main Worlds

David J Smart wrote:

>I'm trying to help Stuart Ferris in an upgrade to his
>World Builders' Deluxe software and am trying to find
>all "canon" references to main worlds which have been
>defined by GDW/DGP as a satellite around another
>planet/gas giant.
>
>Does anyone know if this has been done before? If so,
>where can I get a copy of this info? If not, does anyone
>remember any such references?
>
>I'm already searching through my Traveller collection
>but it's an extremely slow process, thanks to
>RealLife(tm) priorities.
>
>Any help would be greatly appreciated. BTW, right now
>conflicts between GDW and DGP data are being settled
>in GDW's favor.


Regina/Regina  book 6 Scouts
Tetrini//Wolf/Zarushagar  DGP Digest 21
Esui/Aohelroiao/Riftspan Reaches  DGP Digest 19
Gaydos,  Dywosik/Corridor0614  DGP MT Journal 2 (actually a secondary
world with the same population as main world)

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 02:26:45 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: RL computers used in space

 Hopefully this wont start a long thread but I think it somewhat applies to the roundhouse discussion on computer tech levels.



http://technews.netscape.com/computing/technews/newsitem/0,290,37196,00.html?pt.netscape.fd.hl.ne



http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,239-11232,00.html?st.ne.ni.rel

- -- 

   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet
Business

warlord@means.net |       At
<underline>http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby</underline> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:41:18 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) writes:
>  I wonder about that - ISTR that they grabbed him by the shoulders and
>half-dragged/half-carried hima way. You'd think that bridge flunkies on
>Vaders personal cruiser would have enough opportunity to fine-tune an
>SOP - by the heels if they're croakers, and you can check the size and
>quality of the footwear at the same time...

They pick him up from the floor first. And then as you describe. But if you
don't believe me why not watch it this weekend, you know you really want
to....

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 04:22:50 -0500
From: Tom Floyd <tmfloyd@usit.net>
Subject: Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data)

You mean Chip & Dale, Disney's two wacky little chipmunks.

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> At 11:55 PM 5/27/99 EDT, you wrote:
> >In a message dated 99-05-18 12:45:34 EDT, you write:
> >
> ><< Heheh. One guy I knew who went to a Jesuit school for Grades 6-12
> > became a very polite SEAL. >>
> >
> >I can see it now:
> >SEAL: "I'm so very sorry, but I have to kill you now, do you want a blind
> >fold?"
>
> Heh.  When I was a saniper, my partenr and I would do those annoying,
> overpolite Disney critters..cna't rmember their names, but they were gophers.
>
> "May I take the shot?"
>
> "But of course, he is in range you know."
>
> "Why, thank you!"
>
> "Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure."
> --
>
> Doug Berry
> dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 10:21:50 +0100
From: "Dominic" <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Naval Architecture in Gurps Traveller

Is Shipbuilding (Spacecraft) the GURPS equivalent of Naval 
Architecture skill 

cheers



Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 04:17:54 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Missiles and stuff

At 12:53 AM 5/29/99 EDT, you wrote:

>Honor Amung Enemies, how ever it may be spelled.  If you want a game that 

>includes that try out Starfire, the best space war game out there.

>-Stephen

>


 I have seen that game at the comic shop (only one in our little city).

What is it about?



 Has anyone tried to figure out how to use the Shields that were in the honor book in traveler? The were sort a like real dense gravity wave that pulled light along its effect and dispersed it. But it only covered 2 sides from stem to stern. (I think that's how you say it.)

- -- 

   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet
Business

warlord@means.net |       At
<underline>http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby</underline> 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 04:35:11 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Running a good mercantile campaign

At 05:32 PM 5/27/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Ian or Katts wrote:

>> 

>

>> Another key is to create interesting and detailed cargos (*shameless plug

>> for my Extended Spec Trade rules for GT:FT*). These guys are carrying a

>> *huge* piano, twleve dtons of very valuable, exceedingly flammable

>> buckyballs (note to chemists ... is buckminsterfullerine flammable ?), and

>> about 8 dtons of house pets. Any time things get boring, you can toss in a

>> delicate situation ...

>

>Nope, buckyballs aren't overly flammble. In fact, soot from candle or

>acetylene flames are rich sources of naturally occurring fullerenes.

>They'll probably burn readily, though...the current cheap way of making

>them is to burn a carbon arc in helium, and chromatographing the soot.

>

>I don't think you could make them _exceedingly_ flammable, except by

>dissolving them in gasoline or something.

>

>An MSDS (http://www.carbon60.co.uk/pages/page9.html )I found for mixed

>fullerenes does not indicate flammability; and in fact mostly treats it

>the same as carbon black, which is not classed as flammable.

>


  Aren't Bucky balls those things that have near 0 friction against anything? If they are, Imagine spilling them in the cargo bay. I think it would make for some good slapstick comedy.

- -- 

   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet
Business

warlord@means.net |       At
<underline>http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby</underline> 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 04:25:15 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: questions on Rogue CharGen

At 09:33 AM 5/24/99, you wrote:

>At 03:03 PM 5/23/99 -0600, you wrote:

>


>Ever hear of Stanley Clifford Weyman?  In the early 20th Century, he

>successfully impersonated state department officials, Naval officers from

>several different countries, An Army Air Corps officer, a doctor, a member

>of the Royal Court of Norway.. and those are the ones we know about!

>

>His finest moment came in 1926, when he was the "doctor" for Rudolph

>Valentino's girlfriend, Pola Negri.  In this guise, he was interviewed by

>dozens of newspapers, and even signed Valentino's death certificate!

>

>The only thing that tripped him up was his greed and love of publicity..

>sooner or later he either stole too much, or attracted too much attention.

>A more circumspect faker could pass for years.

>--


  Hey he sounds like a real life Pretender.


 I play CT pretty much exclusively for my space games. (I've even started play testing variant rules for generating characters for Battle Tech using the CT gen rules) Has anyone here made any Careers tables for other types of characters not covered by the LBB's or the Spinward Marches book?

- -- 

   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet
Business

warlord@means.net |       At
<underline>http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby</underline> 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #682
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 29 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 683



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fighters
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files
Re: CJ Cherryh
Re: Filthy Lucre
Re: Running a good mercantile campaign
Re:  Encyclopedia of The Univers (was  It's scary what you can find on the net )
Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit
Re: Running a good mercantile campaign
Re: Fighters and New Weapon?
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files
Re: World Builder Delux
Path of Tears query
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files
Re: Naval Architecture in Gurps Traveller
Re: In Your Dreams! <g> (was: More Filthy Lucre:   Mercenaries are better than Merchants)
Re: Running a good mercantile campaign
Re: "The Merchant Game" (was: Filthy Lucre...) 
Re: "The Merchant Game" (was: Filthy Lucre...) 
Re: Naval Architecture in Gurps Traveller
Re: Buckyballs: was Running a good mercantile campaign
Toronto Traveller Meeting
Re: Naval Architecture in Gurps Traveller
Re: NPC quips in Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 07:16:28 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fighters

In a message dated 5/29/99 12:05:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
ianw@orac.net.au writes:

<< 
 The analogy for fighters in the Traveller universe is not the torpedo boats
 of the 19th century, or their cousins the bomb-, torpdeo- and
 missile-carrying aircraft of the 20th century. It is the coastal gunboats
 of the late 20th century, useful for police and customs role, but on no
 account to be put anywhere near the line of battle.
 
 Ian Whitchurch >>

	Maybe true in HG, but if you  use the T4 rules every laser hit has 
some small chance of destroying any ship out there and degrades the armor bit 
by bit.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 22:33:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files

In mail you write:

> A number of files under the \Graphics\Deckplan\ subdirectory on the HIWG CD
> have no file extension.  The first six bytes of the files contain hex
> values: 44 52 57 47 4D 44 ...  which I read as DRWGMD.  Does anyone want to
> take a stab at identifying the filetype?

Probably an AutoCad/AutoSketch DRWG file. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 23:59:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: CJ Cherryh

In mail you write:

> Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com> wrote
>
>> (And it's pronounced "cherry".  Her parents and brother don't have the 'h'.
>> Seems it offended her sensibilities to be a woman named "cherry".) 
>
> IIRC What CJ Cherryh herself said in the intro
> to one of her books was that her publisher
> or agent suggested she change it because
> Carolyn Cherry sounded like the name of a 
> romance author not a science fiction author
> and that this could hurt her sales.
>
> It did not offend her sensibilities it hurt
> her chances of being published & selling well.

She's not the only author to do this. I seem to recall reading
somewhere that Jerry Pournelle was originally "Purnell".

> PS: Carl was quite right to recommend Cherryh,
> especially the Chanur series.

She's got a couple other series that have interesting aliens, and, in
fact, are set in the same universe. The trilogy with the Mri, for example.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 22:29:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Filthy Lucre

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Even in the Scouts, you are going to have to account for equipment that
> is lost, destroyed, or damaged. As well as consumables (such as ammo
> and explosives) used. 
>
> If the folks in the accounting department aren't happy with your
> explanation, they will charge *you* for the cost of the items. And you
> could get your pay docked for the rest of your unnatural life. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Field Survey Scout: What do you mean I have to pay for that wrecked
> Air/Raft? It wasn't my fault, how was I to know those natives had
> anti-air weaponry?
> Captain: You were in charge of that Air Raft, just like I'm in charge of
> this ship. It was your responsibility.
> Field Survey Scout: So, Sir, you're totally responsible for this Scout
> Cruiser?
> Captain: Yup. And if you knew the way Accounting gets on your butt, 
> you'd know why a Captain goes down with his ship.
>
> <G>

Actually, getting shot down isn't your fault *unless* they can show
that you you were ignoring precautions that would have kept you from
being shot down.

"Combat losses" is the usual way that "discrepancies" get cleaned up. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 07:56:55 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Running a good mercantile campaign

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-05-28 07:45:51 EDT, you write:
> 
> << Just a thought. As a fine powder, if you transported it in tanks and
>  moved it between tanks by connecting a hose and pumping air through
>  then wouldn't the resulting mix be explosive if the hose ruptured and
>  the powder/air mix escaped?
> 
>  Ok, so you should have removed the oxygen from the air used for pumping. >>
> 
> Are you thinking of an FAE? a little fuel a lot of O2, now all we need is a
> heat source...

More like a grain-silo explosion, in which the dust from the
normally-nonexplosive grain mixes with air.  This can result in "an
Earth-shattering ka-boom."

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 08:01:50 -0500
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re:  Encyclopedia of The Univers (was  It's scary what you can find on the net )

The AAB's Encyclopedia is said to be readily available on several holodiscs.  
The Vilani, who take this task of collecting information very seriously, would 
argue that it's very accurate.  A Solomani or member of another race might see 
the information as being slanted or jaded however.

> ObTrav: The Imperial Encyclopedia. We are all familiar with the Imperial
> Encyclopedia, it introducing us to many aspects of the official Traveller
> setting. How is the Encyclopedia used in actual play, though? Is it an
> in-depth overview of everything in human knowledge (like the Library of
> Brin's Startide Rising universe)? Or is a much more fallible edition, with
> more in common with the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?
> 
> How big is the full edition of the Encyclopedia, anyway? Will it fit
> onboard a single ship's computer?


 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 06:06:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit

- --- Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
 
> >> Get a big map of the Marches, with starports, trade codes and WTNs
> >> on each world, and x-boat routes inked in.
> >
> >Done. A combo of a photoshop map with the jump routes and a database
> >of the trade information.
> 
> Cool. Can you scan it and put it on the web ?

No need to scan it, it is all digital. I can save it as a jpg 
at any time.

I have some confused ideas about copyrights. I am uncertain that 
I should be making pubicly available that map without sjgames 
permission. I have sent them what I have and what I am doing 
and asked for that permission. Still waiting...

> >Good point. I have the Cronor subsector done and am ready to move 
> >on to it.
> 
> Have you mailed SJ Games and/or Marc Miller yet ? I am filling out
> the
> approval for your application to the Imperial Ministry of Commerce
> Central
> Financial Committee (your signature is on the form, so you must have
> signed
> it, comrade).

I did mail sjgames. Waiting on approval to post the map and database.
<g>
 
> >This is a good plan of attack. Thanks for the advice on that. 
> >I feel energized. <g>
> > 
> >Thanks. I will keep the list posted and possibly post an intirim 
> >jpg on my web site so folks can see how things are progessing.
> 
> Whats the URL ?

I'll let you know as soon as I get an approval back.

Terry
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 06:28:37 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Running a good mercantile campaign

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-05-28 07:45:51 EDT, you write:
> 
> << Just a thought. As a fine powder, if you transported it in tanks and
>  moved it between tanks by connecting a hose and pumping air through
>  then wouldn't the resulting mix be explosive if the hose ruptured and
>  the powder/air mix escaped?
> 
>  Ok, so you should have removed the oxygen from the air used for pumping. >>
> 
> Are you thinking of an FAE? a little fuel a lot of O2, now all we need is a
> heat source...

Actually, he's thinking more along the lines of a a grain silo. Flour, or
grain dust is also _quite_ explosive when dry and finely divided. They blow up
all the time.

An old set of encyclopedias I used to have had a child's demonstration of the
effect. Take one cardboard oatmeal canister with a small hole in the top.  Dry
a teaspoon of flour in a low oven for (IIRC) about an hour. Put the flour into
the box, and shake it up. Hold a lit match near the hole in the top. 

BOOM!

Mom comes running into the kitchen, thinking you have killed yourself to find
fine white powder drifting throughout. Now you _do_ wish you had killed yourself...:-)

Oddly, the encyclopedia ended _it's_ description at the BOOM part...

While possible, it is far more difficult to make an effective FAE from
powdered materials.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 15:13:42 +0000
From: Bryn Monnery <uccabdm@ucl.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Fighters and New Weapon?

>The problem with this scenario is that fighters just dont work in
>anti-miltary ship roles without torpedos.

Unless you can invent a non-canon weapon for your campaigns that uses the
small fighters ability to get closer to the enemy. I would like to suggest
one, taken straight from the pages of Traveller: 2300.

Submunitions.

To all intents and purposes these are missile warheads without an attatched
missile motor. The fighter closes range (to "very close" in T4, same hex/
range band in TNE etc.) and drops the weapon (or many) which detonates
almost immediately (2 seconds after launch in T:2300 but speeds are much
greater) and so bypasses point defences (and depending on which version of
Traveller you are playing nuclear dampers as well).

<snip 3 excellent reasons why fighters can't fight>

>The analogy for fighters in the Traveller universe is not the torpedo boats
>of the 19th century, or their cousins the bomb-, torpdeo- and
>missile-carrying aircraft of the 20th century. It is the coastal gunboats
>of the late 20th century, useful for police and customs role, but on no
>account to be put anywhere near the line of battle.

Without a major shipkilling weapons system, which would be better mounted
on a larger more survivable ship, unless necessity demanded a small craft
(back to submunitions).

Bryn
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/9292/UK.htm
The British Interstellar Empire in 2300

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 10:26:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files

>In mail you write:
>
>> A number of files under the \Graphics\Deckplan\ subdirectory on the HIWG CD
>> have no file extension.  The first six bytes of the files contain hex
>> values: 44 52 57 47 4D 44 ...  which I read as DRWGMD.  Does anyone want to
>> take a stab at identifying the filetype?
>
>Probably an AutoCad/AutoSketch DRWG file.

No, a MacDraw file, at a guess. At least, Bryan has a whole bunch of my
drawing for the CD, and his PC stripped off the resource fork so they no
longer worked.

As well, it renamed all ".html" extensions to ".htm", hereby breaking a lot
of the links in the web pages he included. Those of you who have got a lot
of 404 errors looking at the web pages on the CD might want to try manually
changing the URLs (which is a tedious workaround, but it does work).

What this says about the flexibility of Windows...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 09:31:04 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: World Builder Delux

What is the world builder's deluxe?

"Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:

> > Okay it loads up the first setup screen that vanishes the computer beeps
> > and it says Invalid Command Line Parameter, Intallation Halted.
> >
> > Okay, just figured out what the problem was, thought I'd try something
> > else for a change so I unzipped it into the same directory that I'd
> > DL'ed it into and it worked.  If you unzip it into a different directory
> > it doesn't like that.
>
> Oy vey...
>
> Keven
>
> --
> tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                                                      Science-Fiction Adventure
>                                                      In Reavers' Deep

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 10:45:21 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Path of Tears query

Timothy Collinson asked:

>Does anyone have this TNE book to hand and could tell me the tonnages of
>the Manta class and Aurora class ships?

>Also is the Manta a 'fueller' or 'fueler'?

The Manta class fueler is 400 dtons.

The Aurora class Clipper is a 
600 dtons base, 
1080 dtons with auxiliary craft attached
    400 dton Manta Class fueler, 
    50 dton modular cutter, 
    30 dton ship's boat
2080 dtons fully loaded
   1x 400 dton fuel module
   1x 200 dton module
   4x 100 dton modules

  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 10:51:54 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files

>What this says about the flexibility of Windows...


This has NOTHING to do with Windows.  In fact, it has more to do with
attempting to make the CD readable by other *inferior* operating systems.
:-)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 10:09:42 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Naval Architecture in Gurps Traveller

> Is Shipbuilding (Spacecraft) the GURPS equivalent of Naval 
> Architecture skill 

Actually, it is Shipbuilding/TL (Starship)

It is a TL dependent skill.

Question: How would the standard GURPS TL penalties for learning 
it at TL affect the only two "canon" starship TLs in GT?  Normally, to 
go from 10 to 12 is a -10 penalty and from 12 to 10 a -3 penalty.  
But there isn't anything in the middle.  Would you guys treat it as a 
single step or two?


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 09:36:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: In Your Dreams! <g> (was: More Filthy Lucre:   Mercenaries are better than Merchants)

- --- Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net> wrote:

> >I think the important advantage that mercenary games have over 
> >merchant games is that everybody in the party can really join 
> >in the fun.   
> 
> Ha! Ha! There *can* be plenty of fun for everyone to join in on.

"By thunder, those guizels are stealing the Mae Lee!" Yeah, I 
have to agree that in the merchant game Eris runs, everyone gets 
as involved as they care to be.

Only some of the below have happened, but I expect the rest to 
in it's own sweet time. <g>

>  Compare Merchant and Mercenary "jobs" for PC's:
> >	
> >	1)  The Captain:
> >	Mercenary:  gives orders, buys stuff,  BLOWS STUFF UP
> >	Merchant:   gives orders, buys stuff,  does the books.
> 
> ....finds and negotiates prices for cargos and passage for
> passengers.  Meets with "movers and shakers" on the planet getting
> involved in politics.  Half the time dragging the rest of the "crew"
> into schemes and adventures and the other half trying to drag them
> back out.

....figures out how to keep the archaeologist from stealing 
the local treasure, in the name of science. Gets blindsided 
by the enemies of the discharged chief engineer when they show 
up looking to make sure he stays out of the navy's way. Tries 
to figure out how in the blazes he is going to beg, borrow or 
steal the funds to pay for the "great" cargo that his various 
crewmen have found. 

> >	2)  Engineer:
> >	Mercenary:  lays mines, sets traps,  BLOWS UP BUILDINGS
> >	Merchant:  fixes old pipe fittings
> 
> ...plots his revenge against "the man that ruined him."  Loves to
> gamble, and is good enough at it to make many dangerous enemies.
> Loves to climb mountains and is always looking for a "new peak" to
> conquer, dragging the rest of the crew along with him.

...has revenge against him take the entire group unaware. Well, 
at least I hope it doesn't. <g>
 
> >	3) Doctor
> >	Mercenary:  patches sucking wounds
> >	Merchant:  hands out space-sickness pills, chucks out dead Low 
> >              Passengers
> 
> ...and patches burns, punctures and other assorted wounds (boy, YTU
> must be a peaceful place!  IMTU if somebody isn't getting shot
> they're sitting on a vacuum leak, so there is *always* something for
> the Doc to do).  In her spare time she finds time to doing research
> on infectious diseases and allergies in local swamps, marshes and
> other "interesting" locations.  Also a System Class Gravball player
> who is always looking for a game.  Always gets dragged along on
> the hair-brained schemes the others are coming up with.

Trying her hand at gunnery while shooting at OUR ship as those 
scum steal her from in front of us and get shot back at.
 
> >	4) Executive Officer
> >	Mercenary:  somewhere the Captain isn't, BLOWS STUFF UP
> >	Merchant:  repeats Captain's orders in loud voice
> 
> ...and gets everyone involved in hair-brained schemes of his on. 
> Also a "stringer" agent for some Intelligence Agency with all these
> agendas and missions that have nothing *directly* to do with trade. 

...grumbles as EVERY hair brained scheme lands in his lap at the same
time. <g>
 
> >	5) Shuttle Pilot
> >	Mercenary: dodges missiles, uses beam laser to BLOW STUFF UP
> >	Merchant: dodges port inspector, uses hand cart to unload stuff
> 
> ...a former "belter" that loves to "check out the local belt"
> whenever he's in a new system, with all the potential for fun that
> follows.  Can't pass up a new bar without stopping for a drink and
> "a bit of fun", and that usually doesn't mean darts.

...crash lands a sabotaged air raft, gets threatend with a glaser 
by one of the insane (sorry Carlos!) owners who is SURE they are 
out to get him and kill him, finds the dead body of one of the former 
crew right as the bad guys open fire on him, in a vacuum.
 
> >	6) Ordinary Guy
> >	Mercenary: fires rifle, throws grenades, BLOWS STUFF UP
> >	Merchant: cleans up passenger puke, moves boxes around.
> 
> ...fights off hijackers, *irates, and xenomorphs hiding out in cargo
> boxes and in those swamps, marshes and mountain peaks where he
> always seems to find himself.  Also happens to be an archaeologist
> who travels with the crew mainly so he can look for and investigate
> ancient sites.  Strange how they often show up in those swamps,
> marshes and on mountain peaks.  ;->

...with all of the above and more thrown in.
 
> Any resemblance to current PC's in my AKUS game are completely
> coincidental...yeah right! ;->

Yeah, right. Sure. <g>

Terry
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 09:41:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Running a good mercantile campaign

- --- Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net> wrote:

> One proposed use for buckyballs, I think, is as a way of trapping
> and containing volatile substances allowing for easier transport.
> I'm thinking the carbon atoms form a cage holding the volatile
> molecule in a cage where it can't react.  If this is *true* then it
> might not be the buckyballs that are extremely flammable, it might
> be what they are carrying.  As long as you don't crush, burn, or
> otherwise break the buckyballs everything is cool, but if you
> do...all heck breaks loose.

What the heck are buckyballs?

Terry
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 09:47:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: "The Merchant Game" (was: Filthy Lucre...) 

- --- "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> wrote:

> > It hasn't _seemed_ like two years...but Eris is right, we haven't
> spent
> > much time at all on book keeping!
> 
> I've done some, but less than 5%.  And now that the boat is once
> again out of reach, it looks like he's gonna have to hustle to make
> some quick cash to fill his supercable contract...
 
Talk to Shawn, he would be willing to deal. <g>

Terry
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 12:53:32 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: "The Merchant Game" (was: Filthy Lucre...) 

> --- "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> > > It hasn't _seemed_ like two years...but Eris is right, we haven't
> > spent
> > > much time at all on book keeping!
> > 
> > I've done some, but less than 5%.  And now that the boat is once
> > again out of reach, it looks like he's gonna have to hustle to make
> > some quick cash to fill his supercable contract...
>  
> Talk to Shawn, he would be willing to deal. <g>

Heheh.  No doubt.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 13:48:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Naval Architecture in Gurps Traveller

>> Is Shipbuilding (Spacecraft) the GURPS equivalent of Naval
>> Architecture skill
>
>Actually, it is Shipbuilding/TL (Starship)
>
>It is a TL dependent skill.
>
>Question: How would the standard GURPS TL penalties for learning
>it at TL affect the only two "canon" starship TLs in GT?  Normally, to
>go from 10 to 12 is a -10 penalty and from 12 to 10 a -3 penalty.
>But there isn't anything in the middle.  Would you guys treat it as a
>single step or two?

Two, because GT Starships will be adding modules for other levels.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 13:59:13 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Buckyballs: was Running a good mercantile campaign

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
> What the heck are buckyballs?

Buckminster Fullerines, a very complex carbon molecule whose "geodesic"
shape remind you of Fuller's domes.  Because of their "hollow globe" shape
other molecules can be carried "inside" the buckyball.  There are currently
some medical and industrial applications being tested.  The whole idea is
bizarre.  Not that I'm an authority on the subject, but I had to listen to a
great debate on the subject when I worked in a chem lab several years ago.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SwordWorlder
http://www.downport.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 16:28:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Toronto Traveller Meeting

OK, after much voice-mail tag, we've settled on meeting in front of Union
Station, by the statue of the man inside a globe, at 8:30 today (Saturday).
We can then decide on a suitable location for drinks and dessert.

Ethan, you'd have received a personal invitation if I hadn't left your
email address at work. Consider yourself invited anyway.

Anyone else in the area, drop in and put some faces to names...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 21:39:07 +0100
From: "Dominic" <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Naval Architecture in Gurps Traveller

On 29 May 99, at 13:48, Robert Prior wrote:

> Two, because GT Starships will be adding modules for other levels.


Thanks to all for the information on this query.


Now are there to be many deckplans for GT Starships ?

And can we be expecting SJG Cardboard Cargos and Mix
and Match Deckplans in a separate book.



Dom
- ---
ICQ 1487284

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 13:36:57 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller

Fri, 28 May 1999 11:03:30 -0700, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Facsinating point of succession law, then...if one kills the Emperors
>stand-in to claim the throne, using the Right of Assasination, when
>everyone, Moot included, believes that the person you killed _is_ truly
>the Emperor, what happens?
>
>Had Dulinor succeeded as he had planned, and won the day in the Palace,
>he would be legally Emperor, confirmed by the Moot(at gunpoint or not,
>it matters little), would he not?

The main point is support by the military as far as I can tell.
Most the military seemed to be stunned and angered by Stephon's
death (he was generally supported by the military) and would
have probably refused to support Dulinor.  That means he is
unlikely to be able to force the Moot to confirm him.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #683
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 29 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 684



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Time Traveller...
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #683
Re: questions on Rogue CharGen
Re: Fighters
First In - Starship Designs
Re: NPC quips in Traveller
Re: Fighters and New Weapon?
Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: More Filthy Lucre:   Mercenaries are better than Merchants
Re:Loss Accounting
Re: NPC quips in Traveller
Rocket Bike
Re: More Filthy Lucre:   Mercenaries are better than Merchants

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 13:48:39 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Time Traveller...

Fri, 28 May 1999 23:17:57 EDT, SRKOALA@aol.com

><< Tritium is produced in reactors, deuterium, as it is a stable isotope, is
> purified from ordinary water. It's relatively cheap, I used to buy 100 mls of
> it (99.99% D purity) for < $50-$100 (it's been a long time, so my numbers may
> be way off) We used it for a aqueous solvent for proton NMR work. >>

>what do you use an "aqueous solvent for proton NMR work" for? and what is
>"proton NMR work?"

NMR = Nuclear Magnetic Resonance.  It is a techniqe that analyzes
samples by putting them in a magnetic field and
looks at the energy (typically radio wave energies) needed to
flip the spins of nuclei of certain elements.  If you are doing
protons, you
don't want the solvent to swamp the signal from what is dissolved
in it. There for you generally use deuterated solvents.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 16:34:06 -0500
From: "William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #683

Hmmm... When I was in the US Army we called in "field loss" irregardless of
combat or training... Though the limit was a bit tighter during training ;'>

William


>
> Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 22:29:31 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Filthy Lucre
>
> In mail you write:
>
>> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> Even in the Scouts, you are going to have to account for equipment that
>> is lost, destroyed, or damaged. As well as consumables (such as ammo
>> and explosives) used.
>>
>> If the folks in the accounting department aren't happy with your
>> explanation, they will charge *you* for the cost of the items. And you
>> could get your pay docked for the rest of your unnatural life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> Field Survey Scout: What do you mean I have to pay for that wrecked
>> Air/Raft? It wasn't my fault, how was I to know those natives had
>> anti-air weaponry?
>> Captain: You were in charge of that Air Raft, just like I'm in charge of
>> this ship. It was your responsibility.
>> Field Survey Scout: So, Sir, you're totally responsible for this Scout
>> Cruiser?
>> Captain: Yup. And if you knew the way Accounting gets on your butt,
>> you'd know why a Captain goes down with his ship.
>>
>> <G>
>
> Actually, getting shot down isn't your fault *unless* they can show
> that you you were ignoring precautions that would have kept you from
> being shot down.
>
> "Combat losses" is the usual way that "discrepancies" get cleaned up. :-)
>
> - --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort



- --
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com
road and may God's blessing be with           |
you always.                                   |
St. Claire                                    |

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 16:20:40 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: questions on Rogue CharGen

>>Ever hear of Stanley Clifford Weyman?  In the early 20th Century, he
>>successfully impersonated state department officials, Naval officers from
>>several different countries, An Army Air Corps officer, a doctor, a member
>>of the Royal Court of Norway.. and those are the ones we know about!
>>
>>His finest moment came in 1926, when he was the "doctor" for Rudolph
>>Valentino's girlfriend, Pola Negri.  In this guise, he was interviewed by
>>dozens of newspapers, and even signed Valentino's death certificate!
>>The only thing that tripped him up was his greed and love of publicity..
>>sooner or later he either stole too much, or attracted too much attention.
>>A more circumspect faker could pass for years.

>  Hey he sounds like a real life Pretender.

There's another one more recent than Weyman: Ferdinand Waldo
Demara, aka "The Great Impostor", who succeded in impersonating
(among other things) a monk, a prison warden, and a Navy doctor
aboard a Canadian navy ship during the Korean War. A movie starring
Tony Curtis was made about Demara (The Great Impostor, 1961). The
creators of the current series The Pretender acknowledge Demara as
one of the inspirations for their show.

ObTrav: someone with the skills of a Weyman, Demara, or Jarod would
be able to get away with a lot more in the Third Imperium. Since
communication is only as fast as travel, the Imperial Pretender could
just keep moving on, assuming new identities on new planets. Of course,
he would need to be able to update/fake his ID credentials, but someone
with an appropriately high skill in the right areas (Forgery, Computers)
could pull it off.

  
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 09:29:14 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fighters

>From: AveNelso@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Fighters
>
>	Maybe true in HG, but if you  use the T4 rules every laser hit has 
>some small chance of destroying any ship out there and degrades the armor
bit 
>by bit.

The penetration ratings vs armour values in FFS2 are quite clear on the
matter. The problem is that IG went broke before they did a 'real' space
combat system.

>From: Bryn Monnery <uccabdm@ucl.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: Fighters and New Weapon?

>Unless you can invent a non-canon weapon for your campaigns that uses the
>small fighters ability to get closer to the enemy. I would like to suggest
>one, taken straight from the pages of Traveller: 2300.
>

But small fighters dont *have* an ability to get closer to the enemy.

They get within range, they go *boom*.

Look at the Signature class laser. 600 megajoules at a shot per 2.5
seconds. How many fighters are you going to need to get one in range ?

>Submunitions.
>
>To all intents and purposes these are missile warheads without an attatched
>missile motor. The fighter closes range (to "very close" in T4, same hex/
>range band in TNE etc.) and drops the weapon (or many) which detonates
>almost immediately (2 seconds after launch in T:2300 but speeds are much
>greater) and so bypasses point defences (and depending on which version of
>Traveller you are playing nuclear dampers as well).

Given that 'point defense' is det laser range (30-60KKM), I'd say the laser
point defenses are blowing up the fighters at a bit before that, and our
own counter-missile missiles would be happily doing their thing as well.

Waving a nuke damper over the fighter at range would also help, although I
would concede that a fighter should be able to carry damper boxes to
protect the warheads.

In short, shoot the archer, not the arrow.

Ian Whitchurch

PS Here is a repost of the Signature class laser


'Famile Spofulam Releases New Laser Turrets'

'Enigmatic business tycoon, Hengabar Sofulam, today released the latest
release from Famile Spofulam's High Energy Solution labs - the Signature
class X-ray lasers.

The weapons, a TL13 rapid-fire X-ray lasers, are designed to fit into
Imperial standard 3 and 6 dton turrets, and are capable of firing at a rate
of 24 shots per minute, and are capable of sustained, accurate fire out to
500 000 km.

The turrets include beam pointers and a crewstation, and are designed to
slot directly into an appropriately sized turret socket.

The first is a 200 megajoule laser unit, and masses 47.75 t and is quoted
at costing MCr 2.2, including the 3 dton turret. The second is a 650
megajoule laser unit, massing 115.5t and costing MCr 3.1, including the
6dton turret.

Hengabar's neice, Ditzammer Spofulam, met with reporters after
demonstrating the lighter weapon by carving her initials in a X-tek XTF-4
Delta Fighter at a range of 120 000 km. The demonstation of the heavier
version was terminated after 7.5 seconds fire, as the target had been
turned into plasma by that time.

Her comments were 'Weeeee reckon that if you only have spaceie-wace for one
laser-waser, then it oughta oughta oughta be a good one. Weeee reckon that
the the the baby Signature-wignature can put out as much megajoulage as
eight nooormal civilian laser-wasers, an an an can solve most
problem-woblems'.

The Imperial Ministry of Justice has issued a temporary restraining order
against sale of the heavier model to civilians. It is understoof Famile
Spofulam's legal team are planning an appeal.'

****************************************************************************
*******

The 200 MJ laser has a damage value of 51 (2.5 cm of superdense), while the
650 MJ laser has a DV of 92 (4 cm of superdense). Both have a minimum delay
between shots of 2.5 seconds - eight times the RoF of a 'standard'
shipboard laser. Precise ratings depend on the combat system you use, and
the RoF your power plant can maintain.

These babies burn up a lot of power - you need [MJ/(0.65*delay)] megawatts
to keep shooting them. Note that you can reduce the output of the laser to
increase the rate of fire, which could be important when using them in a
point defense role.

The cost is actually dominated by the 500 000km beam pointer, which could
be cut down to 50 000km by cheapskates.

Note that one of these lasers is, in general, as effective as 8 lasers at
the 'standard' rate of fire of a shot every 20 seconds. Lots of luck
powering the big laser at maximum RoF though (370 MW ... ouch).

At TL13, they are very cutting edge for the early Imperium, but are
technically obsolescent by the 1100s.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 00:11:23 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: First In - Starship Designs

I have just received my copy of First In.  As usual I headed straight for the
starship section.  I have a few problems with the designs. As there are no
errata available, I address my questions to the list.

1. XBoat

I know it is canon, but I still find it hard to believe that a ship would be
built with no manouver capablity at all,  Is there a beleivable handwave for
this?

2. Donosev. 

My calculations give an LMass of 751 which is about 23 stons above the design
spec, and a cost of about 116 MCr which is about 24 MCr below the design spec. 
Why is this?

Why does the ship have two fuel processors when its fuel skimmer also
incorporates two fuel processors?

3. Khadumir 

The Khadumir has 5 fuel processors which is excessive.

There is no cummunications module listed for this ship, which seems necessary
for its role.
 
4. Xboat Tender

I calculate 79 Cargo rather than 82 Cargo as listed.

5. Pytheeas Cruiser.

I am in agreement in all aspects except cost, which I calculate to be about 140
MCr higher than the listed price.  This is almost exactly equal to the cost of
Radical EM cloaking & Radical Stealthing combined. Has radical EM cloaking &
stealthing been included in the cost?

6. Xboat tender deckplans 

At the top of page 43 the cargo deck & vehicle deck are reversed. 

According to the design the vehicle deck should be 60 percent of the ship, but
the deckplans show it as less than half of the ship.

7. Communications module storage capabilities

Why is the storage capability of a GTL10 comms module below that of a real world
top of the range disk drive?
500 Gigabytes is less than a thousand real world CD-ROMs. Real world computer
capabilties seem to have been way underated again in Traveller.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 09:43:36 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller

> > Bruce Johnson writes:
> > >While clearly a sociopathic fratricide and regicide (after all,
> > >unconfirmed or not, Varian _was_ emperor when he was killed) Lucan,
from
> > >the description, was quite cool and collected when he shot everyone in
> > >that room.

I think that Lucan's intelligence service was responsible for the
assassination of Brzk. That 'Superioriti' mob was almost certainly a
front-group.

I can forgive Lucan for killing Varian - he probably was as spoilt and
obnoxious as Lucan, but I can't forgive Lucan for killing Brzk.

(NB:  Brzk died before the release of Virus.)

Still, in the GT alternate universe - BRZK LIVES!!!!

From: Bruce Johnson 
> Of course, this brings up yet _another_ variation on the scenario:
> Dulinor succeeds, Lucan _does_ kill his brother, and claims that he is
> the rightful heir to the throne. He would have to flee, and raise his
> armies away from Core. 
.
> Then rumors start popping up that Strephon is really alive, then more
> substantial reports, then some people take up arms to 'restore the
> rightful Emperor'
> 
> The Rebellion wouldn't have become the all-encompassing war it did, but
> there would be two low level insurgencies happening, Lucan, backed by
> the Solomani, and Strephon, backed by, who? 
>
> The Zhodani, 
. 
> Norris 
.
I don't know whether Dulinor would have appointed Norris Duke
> of Deneb, but I doubt it...of all people, Dulinor does NOT want a smart,
> popular Archduke beneath him. Never can tell what'll happen the next
> time he comes to visit, after all!
> 
> Brzk and Margaret's factions would likely never exist, 

So Brzk isn't a 'smart, popular Archduke'?

> And all the while, Dulinor's plans are being sidetracked by matters he
> didn't think he would have to deal with, delaying his vision of
> integrating the Imperium into a state more responsive to it's citizen's
> needs. (or extending Imperial tyranny, depending on whose propaganda you
> listen to) He extends Imperial control over the member worlds just as
> he'll need to institute more repressive measures due to the growing
> insurgencies.

During the 'Debate' earlier this year I conclusively demonstrated that Brzk
would reject Dulinor's half-baked, human-oriented plans.  He would be a
rebel, possibly before anyone else.

> Nice little Imperium we've got here :->

Yup.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

LONG LIVE BRZK!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 17:07:06 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Fighters and New Weapon?

>From: Bryn Monnery <uccabdm@ucl.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: Fighters and New Weapon?
.
>To all intents and purposes these are missile warheads without an attatched
>missile motor. The fighter closes range (to "very close" in T4, same hex/
>range band in TNE etc.) and drops the weapon (or many) which detonates
>almost immediately (2 seconds after launch in T:2300 but speeds are much
>greater) and so bypasses point defences (and depending on which version of
>Traveller you are playing nuclear dampers as well).

  How many G's will the fighter and/or submunition be pulling for the
delay period? And isn't the det-laser activation range basically the
minimum before auto-hit/ROF stuff starts?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 20:30:47 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

- -----Original Message-----
From: AveNelso@aol.com <AveNelso@aol.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, May 27, 1999 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)


>In a message dated 5/27/99 11:44:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, semo@pil.net
>writes:

>
><<
> That's fine, and frankly that sounds more to me like a McGuffin than
simply
> just chasing after money.
>  >>
>
> It depends.   Money is a McGuffin when the GM says, oh, by the way
>your Jump Drive's broken and you've got to fix it.   This is
"story-telling"
>type gaming (or Railroading).

Ummmm... No. "Story-telling" type gaming does not have to be "railroading"
anymore than mercenary and merchant games have to be micromanagement of the
ship's books. Just keep on reading though.

>Money is not a McGuffin when the PC's ship
>has its Jump Drive damaged by Pirates (although this is of course
impossible)
>from either a plannned or random encounter, through regular use of the
combat
>system.

Nothing you're saying is incompatible with what I am. Not in the slightest.
I'm suspecting that you're being kind of sarcastic, but I can't be sure.

Money can easily still be a McGuffin  when the PC's ship has its Jump Drive
damaged by pirates from either a planned or random encounter, through
regular use of the combat system.

In fact, I'd be quite happy if my players ended up with a broken Jump Drive
(especially if it happened near the end of a session).

>I much prefer it when the game provokes the story rather than the
>story leads the game, which is why I like the economic aspect of Traveller
so
>much.


It depends. If you happen to be a GM who's good at that, then go for it. If
your players happen to like that style of play, more power to you. From your
comments, it seems like the types of games that you like to play (or run)
are relatively simple (in the sense of straightforward) and involve alot of
explosions.

The type of games my players like to play in seem to be more geared towards
exploration and intrigue as opposed to blowing things up and then going home
to figure out if they have enough money to get bigger weapons to blow things
more things up the next time they find a patron.

By and large it's their choice, not mine. I run more story oriented
campaigns and am a big fan of Marc Miller's "push & pull" style of play that
appears in the Traveller Book and T4 (and likely other places). Basically,
there's a larger backdrop against which the players adventure that players
learn about through a series of adventures (either related or unrelated).

However, at the beginning of a campaign I always give my players the option
to simply blow things up. They never take it.

<shrug>

I dunno. If money becomes an object in a campaign, I'd rather it become the
something like it is in the films Kelly's Heroes, The Usual Suspects and The
Sting. Personally, I would find it boring running a game in which my players
do jobs, get paid and then buy more stuff to do more jobs. My players seem
to think that it would be boring to play that way as well.

It's something that I carried away from the way that my brother would run
campaigns in AD&D. Treasure was rarely simply money, it was often
(non-magical) tomes, jewelry or other things. In one adventure we found a
series of tomes that were a detailed bestiary of aquatic creatures. They
were worth several thousand gold pieces, but were actually much more
interesting (so I kept them). They led us on another adventure several
sessions later.

On the other hand, my PCs in a Traveller game went on a subsector-wide
scavenger hunt with merely the promise that if they won they'd become famous
among the local Impie scouts. This also happened to be one of the most
entertaining campaigns I ran.

Anyway, plotted adventures don't have to equate to railroading.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 20:44:26 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

- -----Original Message-----
From: AveNelso@aol.com <AveNelso@aol.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, May 27, 1999 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)


>In a message dated 5/27/99 12:28:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>carl.cravens@lsil.com writes:


>This is exactly my original point.   Money in movies is just a McGuffin,
used
>to set Han Solo's character into the fray, but the minute it is no longer
>needed as such it is dropped.

Not really. We may not know whether or not he spent it (although there
*were* changes made to the Falcon between Star Wars and Empire), but we do
know he didn't spend it paying Jabba the Hutt off.

Since he didn't spend it paying Jabba the Hutt off, the storyline went off
on a tangent with lots of adventure and excitement. Anyway, the money still
had an effect on the storyline, even if you didn't personally happen to see
it.

>In Traveller, that money continues to be
>important, since it can be used to upgrade the PC's footing.      In Sci-Fi
>movies, nobody hads to worry about making a living, but in Trav they do.


I disagree. I would assume that the crew in Alien had to worry about making
a living, or they wouldn't have been interstellar truck drivers hauling ore.
If they weren't worried about making a living the engineers wouldn't have
been balking about their shares.

Okay, so maybe in Star Trek or Star Wars they don't, but the dynamic is
entirely different. In the case of Star Trek, the reasons are obvious. They
don't need to lust after money as (1) they've got replicators and (2)
they're in the employ of a huge interstellar government.

In Star Wars, the main characters are all involved in an interstellar
rebellion that has the considerable backing of many worlds throughout the
galaxy.

>I've always fantasized about a Trav-based TV show, where the mortage on a
>Free Trader had to be paid by the end of each episode, I think'd be
>entertaining and fun to follow. (might teach a few people about money and
>business as well---not that I'm an expert)


Are you actually being serious here? The series would go down in flames
after four or five episodes!

Husband: "Honey, we're going to be late with the rent again this month and
the bills for Little Johnny's doctor's visit is in."

Wife: "Well, that's okay, dear. We can flick on Traveller: The Accounting
and forget all of our troubles."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 21:03:04 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: More Filthy Lucre:   Mercenaries are better than Merchants

- -----Original Message-----
From: AveNelso@aol.com <AveNelso@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, May 27, 1999 6:59 PM
Subject: More Filthy Lucre: Mercenaries are better than Merchants


>I firmly believe that a game is vastly improved by having making money an
>important part of the experience.  It acts as a measurable means to gage
>player interaction with society.

Here's a crazy idea: What if the players' interaction with society actually
was the gauge for how well the players are interacting with society?

I know that's a zany idea and all. Why does there have to be any sort of
gauging going on in the first place?

I mean, let's look at some examples:

A young noble who starts out rich and goes on a trek across the imperium to
sort of figure out his place in the Traveller universe. By your standard,
he's already attained the top of the heap, really.

A suit working for a megacorporation in an upper management position. He
makes a sickening amount of credits per week. I imagine that such a
character could be interesting to play in certain circumstances, I don't
imagine it's most folks' cup of tea. On the other hand, by your gauge he's
really interacting well in society, even before a player has sat down behind
his character sheet.

A conniving rogue who can't seem to hold on to more than a few credits. He
uses his wits, charm and guile, not to mention his healthy Jack o' Trades
skill, to work his way across the Traveller Universe. He's not interacting
well with society at all, although such a character might be more
interesting to play for a good number of people.

Silly me. I thought that the fun that the players and GM are having playing
the game should be the most important gauge in the game.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 21:08:57 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re:Loss Accounting

It was written by William:

Hmmm... When I was in the US Army we called in "field loss" irregardless of
>combat or training... Though the limit was a bit tighter during training
;'>


As a former PBO (Property Book Officer) for a combat engineer company in the
U.S. Army back in the late 70's I can attest to the dim view taken of peace
time losses.  I remember when someone in the Air Cav Squadron lost a pistol
in the field.  The Commanding Colonel kept the whole Squadron out in the
field a extra six weeks looking for it.  They never did find the darned
thing.  On the other hand war losses are an entirely different thing.  I had
a supply Sargent who claimed that if the Vietnam War had lasted a bit longer
he would have retired a rich man.  It seemed that he was in charge of a
supply depo in country where the goodies were kept; steaks, booze etc.  He
and his buddies  were selling the stuff on the black market and covering
their losses with a little bit of artistically placed "war damage" after
each mortar attack.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 10:48:20 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: NPC quips in Traveller

> From: "David P. Summers" 
> >Had Dulinor succeeded as he had planned, and won the day in the Palace,
> >he would be legally Emperor, confirmed by the Moot(at gunpoint or not,
> >it matters little), would he not?
> 
> The main point is support by the military as far as I can tell.
> Most the military seemed to be stunned and angered by Stephon's
> death (he was generally supported by the military) and would
> have probably refused to support Dulinor.  That means he is
> unlikely to be able to force the Moot to confirm him.

Now that's something I've been thinking about.  During the first Civil War
nearly all the (temporarily) successful claimants to the throne were
military rather than civil leaders.  During the second war (Rebellion), all
the claimants were primarily civil leaders - Dukes, Archdukes and so on.

(This difference would be important in a Milieu 600 game.)

Yet another alternate Imperium would be one in which Dulinor's coup
succeeds, but in which he gets overthrown in a military coup.  This would
then lead into a rerun of the first Civil War, with lots of dubiously
legitimate Barracks Emperors.  If it continued long enough, it could
shatter the Imperium into a lot of warlord ruled splinters, just as the
first Civil War almost did.  

Preventing a new Long Night can then become a major project.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 13:04:31 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Rocket Bike

OK, I'm thinking out loud.

Ditzie has a new concept. A ground motorbike that uses hypergolic fuels
rather than an air-breathing engine.

Basically, the engine works through a hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide
reaction. It's designed for use in exotic atmospheres, where air-breathers
dont work.

Now, the key is that the fuel pod and reaction chamber should be simple to
protect from the atmosphere, and the rest of the bike can be cheap lo-tech
construction - when sufficiently corroded, get a new frame and install the
rocket pod on it.

Does this make sense to people ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 22:11:37 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: More Filthy Lucre:   Mercenaries are better than Merchants

In a message dated 99-05-29 21:07:58 EDT, you write:

<< >I firmly believe that a game is vastly improved by having making money an
 >important part of the experience.  It acts as a measurable means to gage
 >player interaction with society.
 
 Here's a crazy idea: What if the players' interaction with society actually
 was the gauge for how well the players are interacting with society?

xxxx
And how the socity changes becouse of them.
xxxx
 
 I know that's a zany idea and all. Why does there have to be any sort of
 gauging going on in the first place?

xxxx
So that the PCs can see that they are doing something.
xxxx
 
 I mean, let's look at some examples:
 
 A young noble who starts out rich and goes on a trek across the imperium to
 sort of figure out his place in the Traveller universe. By your standard,
 he's already attained the top of the heap, really.
 
 A suit working for a megacorporation in an upper management position. He
 makes a sickening amount of credits per week. I imagine that such a
 character could be interesting to play in certain circumstances, I don't
 imagine it's most folks' cup of tea. On the other hand, by your gauge he's
 really interacting well in society, even before a player has sat down behind
 his character sheet.

xxxx
Now if some one was trying to kill said person...
xxxx
 
 A conniving rogue who can't seem to hold on to more than a few credits. He
 uses his wits, charm and guile, not to mention his healthy Jack o' Trades
 skill, to work his way across the Traveller Universe. He's not interacting
 well with society at all, although such a character might be more
 interesting to play for a good number of people.

xxxx
He would be more interesting becouse of what is need to survive.
xxxxx
 
 Silly me. I thought that the fun that the players and GM are having playing
 the game should be the most important gauge in the game.
  >>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #684
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 30 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 685



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Time Traveller...
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues
Re: More Filthy Lucre:   Mercenaries are better than Merchants
Re: Buckyballs: was Running a good mercantile campaign
Re: More Filthy Lucre:   Mercenaries are better than Merchants
Re: Fun things to do with a field phone
Re: Buckyballs: was Running a good mercantile campaign
Re: Buckyballs: was Running a good mercantile campaign
Re: Running a good mercantile campaign
Re: Encyclopedia of The Univers (was  It's scary what you can find on the net )
Re: Buckyballs: was Running a good mercantile campaign
Re: Time Traveller... 
Re: questions on Rogue CharGen
Re: Missiles and stuff
Re: Rocket Bike
Request for Tags

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 22:25:00 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Time Traveller...

In a message dated 99-05-29 16:56:58 EDT, you write:

<< NMR = Nuclear Magnetic Resonance.  It is a techniqe that analyzes
 samples by putting them in a magnetic field and
 looks at the energy (typically radio wave energies) needed to
 flip the spins of nuclei of certain elements.  If you are doing
 protons, you
 don't want the solvent to swamp the signal from what is dissolved
 in it. There for you generally use deuterated solvents. >>

Wow, what uses does this have?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 19:39:05 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

Paul Schirf wrote:

>>What this says about the flexibility of Windows...

>This has NOTHING to do with Windows.  In fact, it has more to do with
attempting
>to make the CD readable by other *inferior* operating systems.
>:-)

True, very true.  Win32 does not require the use of the DOS '8.3' filenames
- -- but, for whatever reason, Billy's boys will readily
sacrifice the conveniences offered by their attempt at a Mac GUI for the
sake of remaining compatible with ancient, Model/1bis
boxes.  Oh, I mean MS-DOS.

Mac users need to be aware of the fact that their files need some 'cleaning
up' before they can be used properly on a PC.  Especially before
Toasting an ISO 9660 CD.  Strip all the resource forks and rename all the
files into 8.3 format.  Images should be saved as GIF, JPEG, BMP,
or something that anyone with a cheap DOS box can read.  Leave the fancy
TIFF, PDF and EPS files to the people who have spent a little
money on their system (or have a newer system).  Do not give a PICT file to
a Wintel user.  Though Mac is able to read PC files (except
executables if you don't have VPC or equivalent), the reverse is not true.

Thinking along these lines (and striving lamely to steer on-topic -- sorry),
has anyone come up with a system for CT computers that has been
'revised' to account for some of the more obvious technical advancements
that have been made since HG was printed?  Speed, storage, raw
processing power, data compression, parallel CPU arrays, 'Moore's Law' (or
similar 'geometric curve' tech progress
phenomenon/theories), the incredible plunge in the cost of complex silicon?
Or does Naasirka levy a tax -- er, license fee -- that would make
His Grace, Archduke Gates III of Terra wince -- making newer computer
technology unfeasible due to excessive cost?  Or just acquiring and
sitting on tech innovation (a la the auto/oil industry)?  What would the
megacorporations fear from allowing newer tech into the
mainstream?  Individual independence, perhaps?  (I'm just saying...,
history, you know...)  The megacorporation's greatest market asset are
their respective distribution channels -- by far the most expensive part of
the Traveller universe, starships.  And lots of them.  Any little
podunk company that happens to develop a useful application for a tech
breakthrough simply has no chance to compete with that much
entrenched access to the masses.

So the trend would be for all the small companies and concerns to work
toward being bought-out by a megacorp.  Kind of like a rock band
trying to get signed by a record label.  In 'real life' there are only six
major labels that own ALL the others: Warner Bros.; CBS/Columbia
(Sony); BMG (Atlantic, etc.); MCA (Geffen, etc.); Siemens (RCA, etc.); and
EMI (Capitol, etc.)  The main difference between these six
companies and the hundreds of independent labels is DISTRIBUTION.  Trucks,
planes, shelf space in every city at once, etc.  The
independents can only take an artist/act so far -- then (with much luck) if
that act becomes even slightly known beyond its home town, the
major labels may take an interest and make an offer the artist simply could
not refuse.  Leaving the independent is a no-brainer: do you want
to sell your tapes at the nightclub's door, or would you like your CD on the
shelves of every Tower, Best Buy, Walmart, Sam Goodies,
Warehouse, every shopping mall and department store in 23 countries?-- only
a giant distribution infrastructure and plenty of capital can
offer that kind of saturation.  Back in CT: on an Imperial scale, just
replace cities with star systems, and the same model takes shape.  Except
that the steep curve of high-tech advancement seems to have hit a brick wall
in cannon rules.  The 'future' as seen from the 1970's is quite a
bit different from the 'future' as seen from the 1990's.  Hell, the
difference between 1998 and 1999 is greater than the whole decade between
1970 and 1980.  The five thousand years before the 18th century saw as much
progress as the one hundred years after.  And the curve goes on,
higher and higher.  People say "Well, _obviously_ that cannot last
indefinitely..."  But how do we know?  My grandfather could not have
possibly dreamed of the world in 1999 back in the '30's.  (The '60's didn't
even show up on radar until it was upon them, who could have
known?)  I know, CT is a parallel universe.  No sense in making it conform
to ours.

Except I like it better when it's as real as we know how to make it.  The
group I game with is quite intense about this (two Davis
physics/math grads among them, but no ideas for the game, per se, mainly
complaints about the math).  >:-[  When Marc Miller set out to
pen the original Traveller, he deliberately chose to cast the setting and
game rules with 'reality' being the standard.  Not Tolkein, it was not
supposed to be like D&D.  He wanted the physics to be correct -- up to the
point where he, like every interstellar SF writer, had to deal with
Einstein and his bloody maximum theoretical speed through a 4-dimensional
environment where gravity is the topology of the
non-Euclidean 'surface' of space-time.  Ok, fine.  That's gotta go, if you
want to have the setting interstellar --  yet interactive.  (It's easy to
travel to extremely distant stars, in the math at least.  The problem would
be the time dilation as you approach 85-90% of C.  Can't have
much of an interactive community or economy if the trip only takes you a
month, while your destination passes through 80,000 years.)  So,
viol la -- the Jump Drive.  Whose to say it isn't possible?  (Besides my
physics buddies -- but hey, they keep trying to include "h" into the travel
equations; there is a limit, beyond which is madness.)

I personally like the Traveller Jump Drive idea.  It's much better that the
majority of SF's 'workarounds' to the "Einstein Bug" that
continually plagues all the Faster-Than-Light drives out there.  The stuff
Miller had to completely manufacture for game convenience is not
a problem to me -- by departing from General Relativity, he now has the
freedom to construct his own physics in his 'jump' realm.  I like it so
much because it's so conservative -- as if, "...if we're going to have to
break this piece, let's try and do as little damage as possible to all the
other pieces," eg, fuzzy logic theory doesn't show up in normal 'non-jump'
existence very much.  This is good: if people started beaming in
and replicating their Fuzzy Navels in crystal goblets while talking on the
sub-space laptop to their friends 1500 light years away in realtime
- -- I would quit gaming and watch TV.  Anti-gravity is another invention that
makes many aspects of the game convenient -- however, there
are plenty of current theories in the journals describing all manner of
bizarre behavior on the part of gravity (and our perception of it),
leaving quite a bit of fertile, undeveloped acreage in the quantum field
theory (which describes the properties of 'gravitons').  So Miller is
making things for future tech levels that do not depart too much from the
theoretically possible.  My difficulty is with those areas in CT that
are NOT fictional, and that can be observed right now, today, by anyone,
anywhere.  Most confounding is the TL chart, of course.  It was
terrific when I first played Traveller in 1982 -- but things have really
changed since then.  Especially in regards to our perception of the
future, much less the 'far future.'

Much apologies for the needless rambling length of this post.  I'm going to
stop now.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 22:56:55 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: More Filthy Lucre:   Mercenaries are better than Merchants

- -----Original Message-----
From: SRKOALA@aol.com <SRKOALA@aol.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Saturday, May 29, 1999 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: More Filthy Lucre: Mercenaries are better than Merchants


>In a message dated 99-05-29 21:07:58 EDT, you write:
>
><< >I firmly believe that a game is vastly improved by having making money
an
> >important part of the experience.  It acts as a measurable means to gage
> >player interaction with society.
>
> Here's a crazy idea: What if the players' interaction with society
actually
> was the gauge for how well the players are interacting with society?
>
>xxxx
>And how the socity changes becouse of them.
>xxxx


Which is an even better indicator...

By AveNelson's criteria, a mercenary company that works pro bono for a
revolutionary army trying to overthrow an opressive planetary government is
not interacting well with society.

> I know that's a zany idea and all. Why does there have to be any sort of
> gauging going on in the first place?
>
>xxxx
>So that the PCs can see that they are doing something.
>xxxx


Well, it's the GM's job to make sure the players feel like they're doing
something. Usually, the best way that a GM can accomplish that awesome task
is to have the PCs actually do something.

> A suit working for a megacorporation in an upper management position.
>
>xxxx
>Now if some one was trying to kill said person...
>xxxx


Fair enough, but that would be storytelling (er... railroading). After all,
you're *scripting* that assassination attempt, after all. Just let the poor
suit pay his bills in piece ;)

 > A conniving rogue who can't seem to hold on to more than a few credits.
He
> uses his wits, charm and guile, not to mention his healthy Jack o' Trades
> skill, to work his way across the Traveller Universe. He's not interacting
> well with society at all, although such a character might be more
> interesting to play for a good number of people.
>
>xxxx
>He would be more interesting becouse of what is need to survive.
>xxxxx


Exactly. Which was my whole point.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 99 22:37:08 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Buckyballs: was Running a good mercantile campaign

On 05/29/99 at 01:59 PM,  "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net> said:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
>> What the heck are buckyballs?

Carbon60, I think.

>Buckminster Fullerines, a very complex carbon molecule whose
>"geodesic" shape remind you of Fuller's domes.  Because of their
>"hollow globe" shape other molecules can be carried "inside" the
>buckyball.  There are currently some medical and industrial
>applications being tested.  The whole idea is bizarre.  Not that I'm
>an authority on the subject, but I had to listen to a great debate on
>the subject when I worked in a chem lab several years ago.

Hey, could you trap antimatter inside a buckyball, held in place by
?electrostatic? forces?  Now *that* would be a very interesting way
of transporting the untimate fuel!  You wouldn't walk to be around
when something goes wrong, though. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 23:48:25 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: More Filthy Lucre:   Mercenaries are better than Merchants

In a message dated 99-05-29 23:00:08 EDT, you write:

<< >In a message dated 99-05-29 21:07:58 EDT, you write:
 >
 ><< >I firmly believe that a game is vastly improved by having making money
 an
 > >important part of the experience.  It acts as a measurable means to gage
 > >player interaction with society.
 >
 > Here's a crazy idea: What if the players' interaction with society
 actually
 > was the gauge for how well the players are interacting with society?
 >
 >xxxx
 >And how the socity changes becouse of them.
 >xxxx
 
 
 Which is an even better indicator...
 
 By AveNelson's criteria, a mercenary company that works pro bono for a
 revolutionary army trying to overthrow an opressive planetary government is
 not interacting well with society.

xxxxx
That's a good idea (merc working for revolution vs opressive gov), here's 
another: A small population with limited resources vs another small 
population with limited resources cut off from all support (kind of what I'm 
doing with Araque's sands)
xxxxx
 
 > I know that's a zany idea and all. Why does there have to be any sort of
 > gauging going on in the first place?
 >
 >xxxx
 >So that the PCs can see that they are doing something.
 >xxxx
 
 
 Well, it's the GM's job to make sure the players feel like they're doing
 something. Usually, the best way that a GM can accomplish that awesome task
 is to have the PCs actually do something.

xxxx
Good point.
xxxx
 
 > A suit working for a megacorporation in an upper management position.
 >
 >xxxx
 >Now if some one was trying to kill said person...
 >xxxx
 
 
 Fair enough, but that would be storytelling (er... railroading). After all,
 you're *scripting* that assassination attempt, after all. Just let the poor
 suit pay his bills in piece ;)

xxxx
Oh, okay, maybe by paying his bills he puts a loak shark out of bussness and 
then he and some of his friends get ticked off by that and deside to make him 
not pay his bills, when he does not coperate...
xxxx 

  > A conniving rogue who can't seem to hold on to more than a few credits.
 He
 > uses his wits, charm and guile, not to mention his healthy Jack o' Trades
 > skill, to work his way across the Traveller Universe. He's not interacting
 > well with society at all, although such a character might be more
 > interesting to play for a good number of people.
 >
 >xxxx
 >He would be more interesting becouse of what is need to survive.
 >xxxxx
 
 
 Exactly. Which was my whole point.  >>

I though so.  Money-Some say that it makes the world go 'round, some say that 
it is bad for RPGs, some say that it is good from them.  I think that money 
should not determin weather the PCs are winning or not, but it should not be 
ignored.  Paying the rent for a Free Trader, or buying that 375Mw Lasser 
Turret up grade to keep the ship safe durning that smuggling run though red 
zone.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 00:00:17 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fun things to do with a field phone

In a message dated 99-05-21 07:35:46 EDT, you write:

<< The trouble is, it's *far* too easy to "induce" allergies to drugs. So
 anybody with *good* secrets will go into shock and die if you try truth
 drugs on them.
  >>
What about cutting the nerve endings so that the person could not feal pain?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 00:02:58 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Buckyballs: was Running a good mercantile campaign

In a message dated 99-05-29 23:39:56 EDT, you write:

<< Hey, could you trap antimatter inside a buckyball, held in place by
 ?electrostatic? forces?  Now *that* would be a very interesting way
 of transporting the untimate fuel!  You wouldn't walk to be around
 when something goes wrong, though. ;->
  >>

If you use an electrostatic (altho I think that you need eltromagnetic) force 
to keep anti-matter away from matter I must ask the question: Why do you need 
a buckyball?  You could do the same thing with a tororal (dought shaped 
magnet).
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 99 23:24:59 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Buckyballs: was Running a good mercantile campaign

On 05/30/99 at 12:02 AM,  SRKOALA@aol.com said:

>If you use an electrostatic (altho I think that you need
>eltromagnetic) force  to keep anti-matter away from matter I must ask
>the question: Why do you need  a buckyball?  You could do the same
>thing with a tororal (dought shaped  magnet).

That's why I asked it as a question, I don't know if it would work.
However if it did you wouldn't have to take the special precautions
in storing and transporting AM that you would have in other cases.

The idea is that the electrons of the carbon would repel the
anti-proton suspended in the center of the buckyball from all
directions locking it into place where it couldn't come in contact
with matter.  You could store the BB's at room temp, ship them, and
bounce them around them around as long as you didn't "break the
eggs."  Then when you are ready to "burn" the AM, you toss the BB's
into a reaction chamber with plenty of matter and break the
eggs...so to speak.

This is probably an unworkable idea, RW, but it might be interesting
in a game.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 00:34:46 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Running a good mercantile campaign

In a message dated 99-05-29 09:29:02 EDT, you write:

<< >  Ok, so you should have removed the oxygen from the air used for 
pumping. >>
 > 
 > Are you thinking of an FAE? a little fuel a lot of O2, now all we need is a
 > heat source...
 
 Actually, he's thinking more along the lines of a a grain silo. Flour, or
 grain dust is also _quite_ explosive when dry and finely divided. They blow 
up
 all the time.

xxxx
My dad did a sci-fair project about that long time ago, 1E years ago, and I 
did something simular at a camping trip...Flour dried by the camp fire and 
then blowing it into the fire...
xxxx
 
 An old set of encyclopedias I used to have had a child's demonstration of the
 effect. Take one cardboard oatmeal canister with a small hole in the top.  
Dry
 a teaspoon of flour in a low oven for (IIRC) about an hour. Put the flour 
into
 the box, and shake it up. Hold a lit match near the hole in the top. 

xxxx
Sounds simple enuff, I think I'll do this, sounds sainer than the camp fire 
idea.
xxxx 

 BOOM!
 
 Mom comes running into the kitchen, thinking you have killed yourself to find
 fine white powder drifting throughout. Now you _do_ wish you had killed 
yourself...:-)

xxxx
Don't do it when she's home.
xxxx
 
 Oddly, the encyclopedia ended _it's_ description at the BOOM part...

xxxx
Hmm, I wonder why that is?
xxxx
 
 While possible, it is far more difficult to make an effective FAE from
 powdered materials. >>

Would it make a bigger "BOOM" per Lb?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 00:39:20 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Encyclopedia of The Univers (was  It's scary what you can find on the net )

In a message dated 99-05-29 09:03:38 EDT, you write:

<< The AAB's Encyclopedia is said to be readily available on several 
holodiscs.  
 The Vilani, who take this task of collecting information very seriously, 
would 
 argue that it's very accurate.  A Solomani or member of another race might 
see 
 the information as being slanted or jaded however.
 
 > ObTrav: The Imperial Encyclopedia. We are all familiar with the Imperial
 > Encyclopedia, it introducing us to many aspects of the official Traveller
 > setting. How is the Encyclopedia used in actual play, though? Is it an
 > in-depth overview of everything in human knowledge (like the Library of
 > Brin's Startide Rising universe)? Or is a much more fallible edition, with
 > more in common with the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?
 > 
 > How big is the full edition of the Encyclopedia, anyway? Will it fit
 > onboard a single ship's computer? >>

Plot Device: Acient Encyclopedia, you want to know enything, just ask, can be 
acced by using a neon laser, data is encuded in a base eight format.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 09:41:43 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Buckyballs: was Running a good mercantile campaign

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
> >> What the heck are buckyballs?
> 
> Carbon60, I think.

Actually there are a range of them, Mass spec analysis has shown them to range
from about c20 on up to c128 and larger. The most stable (abundant and first
identified) is C60, there is also c70 which is just about as stable, but is
shaped more like a rugby ball than a sphere.

> Hey, could you trap antimatter inside a buckyball, held in place by
> ?electrostatic? forces?  Now *that* would be a very interesting way
> of transporting the untimate fuel!  You wouldn't walk to be around
> when something goes wrong, though. ;->
> 

I don't know...but I don't think so. wouldn't electrons and anti-electrons
attract each other? Or do they still both have negative charges? And if they
do, how do you get matter/antimatter to interact, or does annihilation occur
at longer than electron shell distances? (I'll admit this is where my physics
training comes up really short)

Actually the work done with using buckyballs as 'containment' vessels isn't so
odd. Zeolite crystals (a widely used industrial catalyst compound) work in
roughly similar fashions. Onme of the things they're trying is sticking
various substituents onto some of the carbon atoms, some outside the ball,
some inside. The first compound so synthesised had two short alkane (iirc, may
have been alkyne) chains sticking off of it, on two close or adjacent carbons.
Promptly dubbed a bunnyball :-P

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 00:53:21 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Time Traveller... 

> In a message dated 99-05-29 16:56:58 EDT, you write:
> 
> << NMR = Nuclear Magnetic Resonance.  It is a techniqe that analyzes
>  samples by putting them in a magnetic field and
>  looks at the energy (typically radio wave energies) needed to
>  flip the spins of nuclei of certain elements.  If you are doing
>  protons, you
>  don't want the solvent to swamp the signal from what is dissolved
>  in it. There for you generally use deuterated solvents. >>
> 
> Wow, what uses does this have?

Medical scanners, among other things.  One such scan helped diagnose me as 
post-polio (lotta missing & dying nerve tissue), the one I had most recently 
pinpointed the area where I had a mild stroke a couple weeks back (they think 
a piece of blood clot broke loose; all it did was take out a bit of my 'spam 
filters' and left me a touch autistic; therapy *should* retrain the 'filters', 
or so they tell me...).

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 00:57:59 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: questions on Rogue CharGen

In a message dated 99-05-29 06:18:58 EDT, you write:

<<  I play CT pretty much exclusively for my space games. (I've even started 
play testing variant rules for generating characters for Battle Tech using 
the CT gen rules) Has anyone here made any Careers tables for other types of 
characters not covered by the LBB's or the Spinward Marches book? >>

Okay, so other people do that too:)  They seem to come out to ~26 years old 
and seem more focused than most T4 characters.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 01:05:14 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Missiles and stuff

In a message dated 99-05-29 06:15:29 EDT, you write:

<<  I have seen that game at the comic shop (only one in our little city).
 
 What is it about?

xxxx
Ah, well, okay: Starfire is a tactical wargame (alto there is a strat game 
called Imperial Starfire) were a player can control anything from a small 
shuttle(target) to massive Leviathans.  Each ship is part of a ship class, 
with a turn mode and a number of engines needed for 1 movement point.  There 
are fighters, lasers, troop transports, assult shuttles, ALL sorts of 
missiles, data links, CICs, ect.

Exsample ship:
SHX(I)Qs(I)
This is a very small ship (Exploror size) the S in the ship line is a shield, 
to protect the small ship from solar raditaion.  The H is the hold to store 
the ship's maintance supplies, the (I) are each engines and the Qs is the 
quarters.  In my words as complex as a wargame should be.  
xxxx
 
 
 
  Has anyone tried to figure out how to use the Shields that were in the 
honor book in traveler? The were sort a like real dense gravity wave that 
pulled light along its effect and dispersed it. But it only covered 2 sides 
from stem to stern. (I think that's how you say it.) >>

The "Side Walls" would just act as a super heavy armour that gegerated to 
full for every attack, I think.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 10:14:25 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Rocket Bike

Given that it's one of Ditzies ideas, it makes about as much sense as it
can...Though I, personally, would be extraordinarily leery of driving a
rocket-powered motorcycle that  one replaces the frame 'when sufficiently
corroded' Yikes!

I would suspect, even at lowtech, reasonably non-corroding materials can be
made..look, for instance, at what your rocket motor is made of...I really
can't think of an atmosphere more nasty than hydrazine/nitrogen tetroxide ;-)

It would be an amazing ride, though, especially once you jimmy the governor so
you can really go fast!

Ian or Katts wrote:
> 
> OK, I'm thinking out loud.
> 
> Ditzie has a new concept. A ground motorbike that uses hypergolic fuels
> rather than an air-breathing engine.
> 
> Basically, the engine works through a hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide
> reaction. It's designed for use in exotic atmospheres, where air-breathers
> dont work.
> 
> Now, the key is that the fuel pod and reaction chamber should be simple to
> protect from the atmosphere, and the rest of the bike can be cheap lo-tech
> construction - when sufficiently corroded, get a new frame and install the
> rocket pod on it.
> 
> Does this make sense to people ?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 05:54:28 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Request for Tags

.as in, subject line tags.  In this case, I don't want to
filter _out_, I want to filter _in_, so that it becomes easier to
find good stuff for Freelance Traveller (which means that it
becomes available that much faster.  Freelance Traveller is now
averaging about 125 hits per week, thanks to all you folks who
write good stuff).  If people use tags on certain kinds of posts,
it'll be that much easier, even given that I receive the digest
rather than individual messages.

I'd like to suggest the following:

[Ship] - Specifications for starships, spaceships, space
stations, small craft, etc. - essentially, anything that would be
good material for Freelance Traveller's Shipyard.  Optionally,
include a code indicating what format - HG, High Guard; FS,
Fighting Ships (for CT); SS, Shattered Ships (for MT); FFS, Fire,
Fusion, and Steel (TNE); FFS2, Fire, Fusion, and Steel 2 (T4);
GT, GURPS Traveller; et cetera - I'm sure I missed a couple of
systems in there...

[Weap] - Specifications for personal weapons.  Does _not_ include
the system abuses of Famille Spofulam or the Sayat Board for
Optimization and Operationalization of Munitions; those aren't
weapons, they're combination suicide machines/terror devices for
the insane.  Use [Gag] or [Abuse] for those. :)  Weapons will
eventually go into a new section, "The Armory" (or maybe
"Arsenal").

[Adv] - Adventures and outlines.  Great fodder for "Active
Measures"

[Rules] - Deviations from the printed rules, or rules articles
covering areas not anticipated by the published rules.  Great for
"Doing It My Way"

[Story] - Stories from the POV of the characters.  May be
whole-cloth fiction, campaign writeups, vignettes, "lost
diaries", and so on.  For "Raconteur's Rest".

[Culture] - Any sort of background material that
defines/illustrates a Traveller universe culture.  For
"Kurishdam".  I'll open new sections as needed, beyond "Games
People Play", "At Home, We Do It Like This", and "Art and
Entertainment"

[People] - Profiles of individuals that may (or may not - anyone
want to write up Empress Arbellatra?) be encountered in a
campaign.  For "Up Close and Personal".  Groups, such as the
fictitious "Knights of the Great and Powerful Oz" should be
labelled [Culture], although individual members of the order, if
profiled, are [People].

[Stuff] - If it's not a weapon, and it's not a ship, but a player
could go out and buy it, it's a consumer good, i.e., "stuff".
"Stuff" can be found "In A Store Near You".

If you have multimedia files that you'd like to make available,
write privately to jzeitlin@cyburban.com or freetrav@hotmail.com
to make arrangement to get them to me.

Note: I'm not proposing this as any sort of a mandate, either
"legal" or "moral".  I'm just saying that if you do this, it will
make it that much easier to find the good stuff for Freelance
Traveller.

Incidentally, Traveller is now getting its own subsection under
Roleplaying at About.com (formerly MiningCo.com).  Submit your
favorite Traveller sites to roleplaygames.guide@about.com.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #685
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 30 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 686



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re:Nice little Imperium
Re: Fun things to do with a field phone (longish)
Re: Nice little Imperium
Re: questions on Rogue CharGen
Re: questions on Rogue CharGen
Re: Heavy Fighter from Supp 9
Dust Explosives versus FAE (was:  something or other...)
Re : Rocket Bike
Re: Aslan Script?
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files
Re: Fun things to do with a field phone
Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
Re: Rocket Bike
Re: More Filthy Lucre:   Mercenaries are better than Merchants
Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: More Filthy Lucre:   Mercenaries are better than Merchants
Imperial Succession  was Re: NPC quips in Traveller
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 22:30:06 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re:Nice little Imperium

Bruce Johnson (?) wrote

> > Nice little Imperium we've got here :->

I believe the original quote was

"Nice little Imperium _you've_ got here.  It would be a
shame if
anything were to happen to it."

- - Dulinor to Strephon in  Imperium; The Final Chapter
[a gangster movie style trivid film about the Rebellion
 popular in The Regency in the 1190's.]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 01:41:08 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Fun things to do with a field phone (longish)

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-05-21 07:35:46 EDT, you write:
> 
> << The trouble is, it's *far* too easy to "induce" allergies to drugs. So
>  anybody with *good* secrets will go into shock and die if you try truth
>  drugs on them.
>   >>
> What about cutting the nerve endings so that the person could not feal pain?

Pain is there for a reason:  it lets us know when we've had something
bad happen to us.  There are people born without any sense of touch;
they have to be _really_ careful, _all_ the time, or they don't notice
that they've hurt themselves until it's too late to repair the damage.

Physical torture yields very unreliable intelligence information.  After
all, if I don't believe your answer, and inflict pain upon you to prove
the point, you will eventually tell me what I want to hear.  How will
you know what I want to hear?  Whatever you told me that made me stop
_hurting_ you....

Now, if I have tortured you until you told me what I wanted to hear, how
reliable is that information?  What if you had told me the truth the
first time out, and I just didn't believe you?  This is more likely than
is seems; from World War II through Vietnam, over 90% of prisoners of
war told US interrogators the truth as they knew it, simply for the
asking.  (Grenada, Panama, and Iraq have, as far as I can tell, provided
even higher numbers.)  As a 97E4P (airborne qualified US Army
interrogator, rank Sergeant First Class), I know whereof I speak on this
matter.

Besides, as I posted earlier, only amateurs torture prisoners _for
information_.

Ars Gratia Artis >;-)


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 01:46:16 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Nice little Imperium

Peter Newman wrote:
> 
> Bruce Johnson (?) wrote
> 
> > > Nice little Imperium we've got here :->
> 
> I believe the original quote was
> 
> "Nice little Imperium _you've_ got here.  It would be a
> shame if anything were to happen to it."

"...After all, you know that...'accidents' happen.  We wouldn't want
any...'accidents' to happen to such a nice little Imperium as this,
would we?"

<<resists temptation to attach MIDI of "The Godfather" theme>>

> 
> - Dulinor to Strephon in  Imperium; The Final Chapter
> [a gangster movie style trivid film about the Rebellion
>  popular in The Regency in the 1190's.]

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 01:28:25 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: questions on Rogue CharGen

At 04:20 PM 5/29/99 -0600, you wrote:

>ObTrav: someone with the skills of a Weyman, Demara, or Jarod would

>be able to get away with a lot more in the Third Imperium. Since

>communication is only as fast as travel, the Imperial Pretender could

>just keep moving on, assuming new identities on new planets. Of course,

>he would need to be able to update/fake his ID credentials, but someone

>with an appropriately high skill in the right areas (Forgery, Computers)

>could pull it off.

>


  I think that would be a cool game for a solo (GM vs 1 Player) campaign.

I at least think I would have a blast playing. Of course I would play mostly science or technical careers.

  As a GM for that kind a game I would have to really plan on doing my homework.



- -- 

   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet
Business

warlord@means.net |       At
<underline>http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby</underline> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 01:44:54 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: questions on Rogue CharGen

At 12:57 AM 5/30/99 EDT, you wrote:

>In a message dated 99-05-29 06:18:58 EDT, you write:

>

><<<<  I play CT pretty much exclusively for my space games. (I've even started 

>play testing variant rules for generating characters for Battle Tech using 

>the CT gen rules) Has anyone here made any Careers tables for other types of 

>characters not covered by the LBB's or the Spinward Marches book? >>

>

>Okay, so other people do that too:)  They seem to come out to ~26 years old 

>and seem more focused than most T4 characters.

>-Stephen


 Well I haven't seen T4 yet because I am the only one in the group that buys traveller stuff. And I don't have the money to just throw at another game system, when what I got works just fine (Although it is dated).


  The one thing I disliked about Mechwarrior generation is that 2 of my players always make the same character time and time again. I even try and make adventures that play into the weaknesses of their characters, but when they DIE or make up new ones they just change one skill for another, and still wind up with a One dimensional character. And I fear since GT:Traveler is a BUILD you PC system they would just do the same thing.

  So hence the conversion to traveller rules. Now this is only for Generation of the PC's in mechwarrior. We would still use the BT rules for mech combat and MW rules for personal combat. Since CT combat rules have nothing to compare with BT.

- -- 

   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet
Business

warlord@means.net |       At
<underline>http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby</underline> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 01:54:28 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Heavy Fighter from Supp 9

At 04:55 PM 5/22/99 EDT, you wrote:

>In a message dated 99-05-22 09:41:42 EDT, you write:

> 

> The details of this sort of thing depend heavily on what design rules

> you're using, and there are several to choose from. I'm really only doing

> GT, where this isn't really worth bothering (a GT missile rack has 70+

> reloads.) >>

>

>What I'm going for is a fighter (10-20 ton) that has a few light missiles for 

>shooting at other fighters.

>-Stephen

>


 Cool 'dogfight' missiles. I've never seen them in any of the CT rules I have (Which ain't many) but you could use regular rules for the fighters but either make it were they have twice the load of missiles or have 2 missile launchers with the same amount of loads. As for the combat damage and to hit chance. Make them ignore the size difference of the fighter, but also make them not do any or little damage to larger ships.

- -- 

   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet
Business

warlord@means.net |       At
<underline>http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby</underline> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 02:13:13 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Dust Explosives versus FAE (was:  something or other...)

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
<<snips descriptions of flour-based dust explosives (with unpleasant
parental consequences)>>
> xxxx
> 
>  While possible, it is far more difficult to make an effective FAE from
>  powdered materials. >>
> 
> Would it make a bigger "BOOM" per Lb?

Probably not.  OTOH, flour can be produced at TL: very-low, while
appropriate hydrocarbons for FAE bombs would require TL:
not-quite-as-low.

<tongue-in-cheek>
Besides, how do you teach the wheat-sniffing dogs to distinguish between
flour-based dust-initiator explosives and bread?
</tongue-in-cheek>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 19:05:59 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Rocket Bike

Ian, this is a scary concept!

* The vehicle needs to be adequately streamlined and have a little more
frame strength than your average racing bike (1G loading + ~0.5G for
peak acceleration). How much rocket are you planning to put on this
thing?

* Materials - go with titanium for the motor and some composites, if
Tech Level permits... 

* Streamlining - the rocket bike would be as to a racer as the
'Bluebird' or 'Blue Flame' rocket cars are to a sports car...

Throw a few numbers at it and see what you come up with.

Awaiting another interesting design from the House of Spofulam,

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 12:41:32 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Re: Aslan Script?

Wed, 26 May 1999 08:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Mark Cook <markc@peak.org> wrote:

> Gang, like Andy, I'm also on a deadline for SJG.  Unfortunately,
> my memory has picked now to fail me.

This may be too late for you, but here goes anyway...

> In one of the MT books (I *think*), there is an illustration consisting
> of several lines of Aslan script: Female scientific glyphs, Male poetic
> cursive, and one other (IIRC).  I CAN'T REMEMBER WHICH BOOK THIS IS IN!!
> 
> If any of you could point out volume and page to me, I'd *really*
> appreciate it.  The clock is running...

You can find the article in TD #17, pp. 34-37.

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 04:02:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files

In mail you write:

>>In mail you write:
>>
>>> A number of files under the \Graphics\Deckplan\ subdirectory on the HIWG 
> CD
>>> have no file extension.  The first six bytes of the files contain hex
>>> values: 44 52 57 47 4D 44 ...  which I read as DRWGMD.  Does anyone want 
> to
>>> take a stab at identifying the filetype?
>>
>>Probably an AutoCad/AutoSketch DRWG file.
>
> No, a MacDraw file, at a guess. At least, Bryan has a whole bunch of my
> drawing for the CD, and his PC stripped off the resource fork so they no
> longer worked.

Sounds like you sent them Binhexed. Alas, the Binhex available for the
PC *does* throw away the resource fork. 

> As well, it renamed all ".html" extensions to ".htm", hereby breaking a lot
> of the links in the web pages he included. Those of you who have got a lot
> of 404 errors looking at the web pages on the CD might want to try manually
> changing the URLs (which is a tedious workaround, but it does work).

> What this says about the flexibility of Windows...

It's no weirder than the hoops you have to jump through on a Mac when
the file "type" is unknown. 

In both cases, the OS is making the *assumption* that files are in
native format.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 04:10:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fun things to do with a field phone

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 99-05-21 07:35:46 EDT, you write:
>
> << The trouble is, it's *far* too easy to "induce" allergies to drugs. So
>  anybody with *good* secrets will go into shock and die if you try truth
>  drugs on them.
>   >>
> What about cutting the nerve endings so that the person could not feal pain?

That won't prevent the allergic reaction.

If you are proposing this as a means of making them immune to torture,
you've got some major problems. To give you an idea, *all* that leprosy
does is knock out the pain nerves in pretty much the manner you are
thinking of. 

All the horrible scars, rotting, lost fingers and limbs, etc are *all*
due to the simple fact that the leper can't feel pain (and certain
other strong sensations. They damage themselves and *don't notice*. 

A couple of examples. A man discovered he had leprosy when he fell
asleep while smoking. When he woke up, he noted an odd smell. He'd been
holding a cigarette between two fingers. It'd burned down and charred
the hell out of the fingers. He hadn't felt a thing.

Another case was a doctor at a leper colony. He was having trouble with
a key, because the lock was stiff. One of the lepers tried and did get
the key turned. He also ripped the hell out of his hand from turning so
hard.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 07:53:05 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

In a message dated 5/29/99 8:48:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, semo@pil.net 
writes:

<< 
 Are you actually being serious here? The series would go down in flames
 after four or five episodes!
  >>

	No I wasn;t being serious.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 10:14:22 +0100
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

Thanks to Ian and Jim for your answers on turnover - you are so quick
responding! Yes, I must have meant revenue, and yes, it certainly does
put things in perspective...

Next question: is profit as a percentage of revenue correlated with
company size at all? If Jamison Factors, Oberlindes, Tukera and
Makhidkarun are all performing averagely for their size, what might
their %age profit be?

Also, could you give me a ballpark figure for maximum sustainable
profit? I know these things fluctuate wildly. Saying Oberlindes
generates 90% profit seems ridiculous and 1% seems reasonable, but I'm
less sure about figures in between - what about 10%, 20% or 50%?

Once again, thanks.

John
 
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 04:17:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Rocket Bike

In mail you write:

> OK, I'm thinking out loud.
>
> Ditzie has a new concept. A ground motorbike that uses hypergolic fuels
> rather than an air-breathing engine.
>
> Basically, the engine works through a hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide
> reaction. It's designed for use in exotic atmospheres, where air-breathers
> dont work.
>
> Now, the key is that the fuel pod and reaction chamber should be simple to
> protect from the atmosphere, and the rest of the bike can be cheap lo-tech
> construction - when sufficiently corroded, get a new frame and install the
> rocket pod on it.

> Does this make sense to people ?

It's much simpler to just *carry* oxygen for a "normal" engine.
Hyper-golic fuels are *too* energetic. 

Also, for a ground vehicle, hydrogen peroxide might be a better choice.
It's a good monopropellant. Pass it over any of a number of catalysts
and you get a mix of superheated steam and free oxygen. 

You either use the steam straight to run pistons or even a turbine, or
you use the H2O2 as an oxidizer and bring in the exotic atmosphere to
work with it. 

That last is actually a fairly old idea. "Trouble on Titan" (an *old*
SF novel) has a jet plane flying in Titan's methane atmosphere. It
sucks in and compresses the methane and sprays in enough *oxygen* to
cause combustion. The engine needs some adjustment, but not nearly as
much as you'd think. All it cares about is the methane/O2 ratio in the
combustion chamber, not which came from where.

Almost all "exotic" atmospheres will be either oxidizing or reducing.
In an oxidizing atmosphere, you use the local air and supply fuel. In a
reducing atmosphere, the air is "fuel" and you supply the oxidizer. 

The cases where you need self-contained units is a nitrogen/CO2
atmosphere (earth before photosynthesis, Venus now)

Anyway, if the local atmosphere is oxidizing *or* reducing, engines
that use the local atmosphere are both possible, and simpler than
self-contained units.

Self contained units are probably fairly common for use on worlds with
"neutral" atmospheres, and on worlds with vacuum or very thin
atmospheres. I'm not sure if self-contained or superchargers would be
better for "thin" atmospheres.

But in any case H202 is a *lot* safer than hydrazine or nitrogen
tetroxide. Hydraxine is *highly* toxic. Nitrogen tetroxide is actually
listed as a poison gas *and* is corrosive (add water and you get nitric
acid). 

With all three you are going to get a nasty mess if you spill fuel or
crack the fuel tanks. With Hydrazine and nitogen tetroxide, you have a
*poisonous* mess, and if they contact each other, it goes *boom*. 

With H2O2, it's not poisonous, though it will eat organic materials
given half a chance. And there *is* a fair chance of a spill going off.
But you can "tame" H2O2 by mixing in some distilled water. 40% is
probably *too* tame. And 80% is pretty damn lively. 

Oh yeah, hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide bioth contain a *lot* of
nitrogen. Which tends to be one of the harder to get life support
gases. Hydrogen and oxygen are easy. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 08:20:12 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: More Filthy Lucre:   Mercenaries are better than Merchants

In a message dated 5/29/99 11:00:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, semo@pil.net 
writes:

<< 
 By AveNelson's criteria, a mercenary company that works pro bono for a
 revolutionary army trying to overthrow an opressive planetary government is
 not interacting well with society.
  >>
	Okay, everybody seems to be missing my point--remember I've said "an 
important part of the game"  and "a way of gauging"  not "the most important 
part" or  "the best way of gauging".   The way  money works to gauge player 
interaction with society is as follows:  The imperium is defined as a 
economic community of worlds.  When a traveller manages to make money on his 
travels he has used the Imperium for the intention it was created for.  When 
characters use money-making opportunities and actually make money they are 
aligning themselves with the forces of the econmies of the worlds, fufliing 
needs and desires of the citizens and are being properly rewarded for it. 
	
	A mercenary company who works pro bono to support a revolution and 
goes broke because of it, is bucking the status quo, and because it has run 
out of money it by definition has "not interacted well with the society".  
This is not the same thing as saying they haven't done a good (or perhaps 
evil) thing--separate questions entirely.  There's nothing to say that a 
character or characters really want to interact well with society either.  
They may be loners or commies or something like that and only get their joy 
when the Imperium is thwarted, they won't interact well with society and so 
won't make any money.

	My original point is that in a Traveller game, the players must plan 
ahead to see if they can afford the munitions and salaries to support the 
unit during the revolution; this is a real concern of the players as they 
plan.  When a movie is made, the money required to do this (in the story) is 
not a real concern of the author/director --if the story requires them to 
have enough, they have enough and vice-versa.   

	Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 08:32:56 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

In a message dated 5/29/99 8:34:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, semo@pil.net 
writes:

<< 
 It depends. If you happen to be a GM who's good at that, then go for it. If
 your players happen to like that style of play, more power to you. From your
 comments, it seems like the types of games that you like to play (or run)
 are relatively simple (in the sense of straightforward) and involve alot of
 explosions.
  >>

	Actually my bark lately has been worse than my bite.   I like 
mercenary games because of the set up and moral choices it puts in front of 
the players as much as the explosions themselves.   I like the machinations 
that go into arming, recruitng, training and equipping the unit (see the film 
The Dogs of War),  And the spots the players are put into when their boss 
turns out ot be less than savory or the enemy forces force them into morally 
difficult positions.        Everybody likes the combat of course, but if 
that's all there was to it then we'd just play a war game.   On the other 
hand, if the money didn't matter, then we'd be telling a story not playing a 
game.   I really think that the "G" part of RPG is just as important as the 
RP, you need both halves.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 08:47:03 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

In a message dated 5/29/99 8:34:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, semo@pil.net 
writes:

<< 
 I dunno. If money becomes an object in a campaign, I'd rather it become the
 something like it is in the films Kelly's Heroes, The Usual Suspects and The
 Sting. Personally, I would find it boring running a game in which my players
 do jobs, get paid and then buy more stuff to do more jobs. My players seem
 to think that it would be boring to play that way as well. >>

	Now, that's just want to avoid money becoming in a game.   I don't 
want players to get piles of money and then sit on it.    I want them to look 
for money for its instrumental value.  There is something they want to do 
with that money, are they building this mercenary unit to form a nucleus of 
an army to free their homeworld?  Do they want to build their merc unit as a 
symbol of pride?    Is there a secret cause they are supporting (e.g.  
Falkenberg's Legion)?   Money is the means to achieve the building of the 
unit, and it is the objective gauge of how far their goal has come.   
	Otherwise, it is just arbitrary grants and benefices from the GM.   
My aim in running a game is to make the PC's feel that they are in control of 
their destinies.  I almost never have one single adventure or path set up in 
front of them.  They get ot choose what they want to do, and the economic 
rewards will be different based on that choice.  If you don't give the pc's 
the ability to take or refuse jobs based on economic considerations, they 
don't feel free, like they're pursuing their own agendas.  I guess having 
several possible jobs open might be too much work for some GM's but I find it 
essential.
	One player has said that in most games the players react to what the 
villians do (heroes have morals, but villians have work ethic).  But in my 
games the players are forced to act, and the world reacts.  That's my aim, so 
the player's goals run the game--because that's the kind of game I'd like to 
play in, if I had the chance.	

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 08:48:36 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: More Filthy Lucre:   Mercenaries are better than Merchants

In a message dated 5/29/99 9:07:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, semo@pil.net 
writes:

<< 
 A young noble who starts out rich and goes on a trek across the imperium to
 sort of figure out his place in the Traveller universe. By your standard,
 he's already attained the top of the heap, really.
  >>

	Ah, but a noble has a different standard he has to leave his house 
with more money and prestige than it started with, or else he a wastral, and 
not a productive member of the line.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 10:22:37 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Imperial Succession  was Re: NPC quips in Traveller

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:

>SD Mooney wrote:
>> Damnable treasonous lies spread by Margaret's allies. Strephon was still
>> emperor when Lucan murdered his brother. Strephon lives!
>
>Facsinating point of succession law, then...if one kills the Emperors
>stand-in to claim the throne, using the Right of Assasination, when
>everyone, Moot included, believes that the person you killed _is_ truly
>the Emperor, what happens?

Belief isn't the point - legally Strephon is still Emperor, Dulinor is
wanted for murder of the Imperial spouse and heir, plus the Aslan
ambassador. Lucan is an opportunist murderer. The Moot will not be
suspended if Dulinor succeeds because it would be the opposite of his
beliefs, so the evidence that Strephon lives will surely come out.

This will probably come to civil war anyway, with Dulinor squaring up
against Strephon. The big issue is whether the Moots supports him or not...

>The Rebellion wouldn't have become the all-encompassing war it did, but
>there would be two low level insurgencies happening, Lucan, backed by
>the Solomani, and Strephon, backed by, who?
>And all the while, Dulinor's plans are being sidetracked by matters he
>didn't think he would have to deal with, delaying his vision of
>integrating the Imperium into a state more responsive to it's citizen's
>needs. (or extending Imperial tyranny, depending on whose propaganda you
>listen to) He extends Imperial control over the member worlds just as
>he'll need to institute more repressive measures due to the growing
>insurgencies.
>
>Nice little Imperium we've got here :->

I've always thought a varient on the 2nd civil war, (or even the same as
canon) with hard times coupled to it was more interesting. Virus kind of
disappointed me - you had the rebuilding feel by the end of Hard Times...

Dom

Very OT - Anyone play Myth:TFL out there? I've got two problems at the
moment - 1) I had to clean reinstall my system a month or two ago and only
have copies of the files from the 'save folder' (MacOS version). I can't
get the system to acknowledge them. Anyone know how? 2ndly, how do you
complete the 5th(?) scenario - the one where you are escaping from the
city, and start by the walls. You get hit by a three sided attack amongst
the craters, which is survivable, but the road out runs past a hill with a
horde of Gridaksma Balde wielding Myrmidons. I suspect that winning
requires luring them to a crater where your archers and or dwarves can
finish them off, but haven't managed to do it. Any tips welcome! (Please
respond off list).


- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 14:47:56 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files

"Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com> wrote:

>>What this says about the flexibility of Windows...
>This has NOTHING to do with Windows.  In fact, it has more to do with
>attempting to make the CD readable by other *inferior* operating systems.
>:-)

Like... Windows 3.1/DOS .

So it does have something to do with Windows <grin>

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #686
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 30 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 687



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Temperatures.
Re: Naval Architecture in Gurps Traveller
Re: Naval Architecture in Gurps Traveller
Re: Buckyballs
Re: Buckyballs: was Running a good mercantile campaign
Re: Intro for new players
Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Imperial Succession  was Re: NPC quips in Traveller
Coming Back to the Game
Re: Time Traveller...
Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit
Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
Re:Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
[www] Freelance Traveller Updated - 30 May 1999
Spinward Marches Map
Re: Spinward Marches Map
Re: First In - Starship Designs
Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
Re: Spinward Marches Map
Errata for _Book 8: Robots_

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 14:58:11 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> writes:

Dave Nelson>>In Traveller, that money continues to be
>>important, since it can be used to upgrade the PC's footing.      In Sci-Fi
>>movies, nobody hads to worry about making a living, but in Trav they do.

Well, if you look at B5 several of the episodes were drive by people
wanting to make a profit, especially those involving Alien artifacts.
Smuggling also came into it. The main characters were pretty much untouched
(being employed by the Station) however examples of financial issues
include:

1) The crew pulling a scam to keep their larger quarters when ordered to
pay for them.
2) Zack Allen joining Nightwatch for the extra money.
3) Lyta Alexander trying to set up as a freelance Psion for business to
keep her income.

of course, once the station broke from the Earth Alliance we had Ivanova
trying to set up commercial deals with smugglers etc to keep funds and
supplies coming.

You could argue that B5 isn't a film, but it does have 3 TV Movies...

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 08:57:07 -0700
From: "Derek Stanley" <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Temperatures.

I was wondering if anyone knew anything about the temperatures and pressures
at which gasses freeze.

Stonehaven has a surface pressure of 25atms, that's on the glacier not under
it an equatorial temperature of -52 C and a polar temperature of -97 C.

What's going to freeze there?

Derek Stanley
http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Home.html

Say G'nite Hoss.
- -Ashtabula-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 12:06:41 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Naval Architecture in Gurps Traveller

- ----------
> From: Dominic <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
> To: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>;
traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Naval Architecture in Gurps Traveller
> Date: Saturday, 29 May, 1999 4:39 PM
> 
> Thanks to all for the information on this query.
> 
> 
> Now are there to be many deckplans for GT Starships ?

Looks like there will be at least a half-dozen, plus some small craft. 
Starships includes both an expanded design system (more modules at
different TLs, plus more options for hull design and so forth) and a
section on typical "adventure-class" ships, including deck plans.  

To Loren or anyone else at SJG reading this: Please put a text description
of the deck plans in Starships.  It's absolutely infuriating to look at a
deck plan and not have any idea what some spaces are.  (See especially the
Broadsword in Star Mercs.  Utterly incomprehensible.)  On a related point,
try lightening up the hex pattern; as printed now it is sometimes hard to
see bulkheads and doors when they coincide with the hex edges.
 
> And can we be expecting SJG Cardboard Cargos and Mix
> and Match Deckplans in a separate book.
> 
ISTR that Starships will have deckplans clipart in lieu of some of the
traditional SJG illustrations.  I'm just hoping the eventual Pyramid
designer's notes will include computer versions of same.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 12:20:39 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Naval Architecture in Gurps Traveller

- ----------
> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Naval Architecture in Gurps Traveller
> Date: Saturday, 29 May, 1999 1:48 PM
> 
> >Question: How would the standard GURPS TL penalties for learning
> >it at TL affect the only two "canon" starship TLs in GT?  

> Two, because GT Starships will be adding modules for other levels.

This is technically correct.  However, if you are interested in maintaining
a CT feel, I'd tend to ignore the TL modifiers for GTL 10-12 (roughly CTL
11-15), at least in operator skills.  There seems to be a large degree of
standardization in interfaces and so forth at those TLs, with most systems
being refinements of older tech rather than using new basic principles. 
Also, it really simplifies game play.  otherwise, your ex-Imperial Navy
pilot (Pilot/TL12-15) is just barely competent to fly a TL10 freighter
(effective skill 12).  Not too much fun.

Tom Schoene
 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 10:20:19 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Buckyballs

>The idea is that the electrons of the carbon would repel the
>anti-proton suspended in the center of the buckyball from all
>directions locking it into place where it couldn't come in contact
>with matter.

I don't think this would work. IIRC the field intensity inside a charged
sphere is uniform, so there would be no net force holding the antiproton
anywhere.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 10:35:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Buckyballs: was Running a good mercantile campaign

- --- "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net> wrote:

> > What the heck are buckyballs?
> 
> Buckminster Fullerines, a very complex carbon molecule whose
> "geodesic"
> shape remind you of Fuller's domes.  Because of their "hollow globe"
> shape
> other molecules can be carried "inside" the buckyball.  There are
> currently
> some medical and industrial applications being tested.  The whole
> idea is
> bizarre.  Not that I'm an authority on the subject, but I had to
> listen to a
> great debate on the subject when I worked in a chem lab several years
> ago.

Thank you. Now I have a clue as to what they are talking about.

Terry
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 14:57:57 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Intro for new players

Certainly - I'm building it to go on my own page and will let the group know
as soon as it is complete and up.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Schoene <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: 29 May 1999 00:20
Subject: Re: Intro for new players


>----------
>> From: Mark Preston <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
>> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
>> Subject: Re: Intro for new players
>> Date: Friday, 28 May, 1999 2:22 PM
>>
>> I do have such a thing and will be happy to send it to you. As yet, it is
>> not complete and comes in several HTML pages. Please can you let me know
>> whether the HTML will be fine, or if you want me to convert it for you.
>>
>Is there any chance you could find a web page to put it up on?  I'd like to
>see this if possible, since I'm doing something similar for my new GT
>campaign.  Mine may be less generally applicable though, since I'm
>compressing the history of the Imperium a lot.  I want to maintain the
>Milieu 1100 setting, but move things like the Civil Wars into the much more
>recent past.  For example, the Civil Wars are going to be only about
>150-200 years in the past and the renewed imperial presence in the Marches
>less than 100.  I think this will give things more of a sense of urgency,
>without tearing the whole structure apart like the Rebellion/Virus did.
>
>Tom Schoene
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 12:47:56 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I like the machinations
> that go into arming, recruitng, training and equipping the unit (see the film
> The Dogs of War), 

Aaaack blech! read the book 'The Dogs of War', 'tis vastly better than the
movie, and full of ionspiration for a good GM. "The Wild Geese" comes a little
closer to the flavor.

While on the subject, read 'Day of the Jackal'...someone recently posted a
suggestion that the PC's be hired to keep a party of Nobles or the Megacorp
exec alive in the face of a determined assasination attempt. Lots of good
stuff to mine in those books.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 12:56:29 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Succession  was Re: NPC quips in Traveller

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> 
> >SD Mooney wrote:
> >> Damnable treasonous lies spread by Margaret's allies. Strephon was still
> >> emperor when Lucan murdered his brother. Strephon lives!
> >
> >Facsinating point of succession law, then...if one kills the Emperors
> >stand-in to claim the throne, using the Right of Assasination, when
> >everyone, Moot included, believes that the person you killed _is_ truly
> >the Emperor, what happens?
> 
> Belief isn't the point - legally Strephon is still Emperor, Dulinor is
> wanted for murder of the Imperial spouse and heir, plus the Aslan
> ambassador. Lucan is an opportunist murderer. The Moot will not be
> suspended if Dulinor succeeds because it would be the opposite of his
> beliefs, so the evidence that Strephon lives will surely come out.

No, my version doesn't end with the Moot suspended; Rather, it confirms
Dulinor, based on the right of assasination, as the Emperor. _NOW_ what
happens...if Strephon shows up you have two duly recognized Emperors.

When Dulinor has Strephons body, with the correct genetic map right there in 
evidence? It will be up to the 'erstwhile' Strephon to prove who he is.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 16:16:54 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Coming Back to the Game

After having been out of the Traveler scene for a long time(over ten years),
I started with the first three CT books in the boxed set and bought darned
near everything generally available through the release of the Virus, I am
interested in getting back into the swing of things as a GM. My game was set
in the Spinward Marches before and into the 5th Frontier War.  The game
could be classified as a mercenary campaign with a covert agenda, they
crewed a Broadsword class Merc cruiser indirectly owned by Norris.  As with
most GMs there  were a few items added to the game, typically weapons
systems, which were nonstandard. It was my theory that as a general rule of
weapons design and play that any innovative weapons system introduced should
have technology specific counter measures introduced approximately one tech
level behind it.  Thus for example the introduction of jet engines in WWII
was followed by the introduction of heat seeking missiles within
approximately one tech level.  I assumed, based on the above stated model,
that with the introduction of grav vehicles approximately one tech level
later crude "grav seeking" missiles would appear.    I had intended to write
up an article "Weapons of the Fifth Frontier War".   I am curious if anyone
would be interested in corresponding privately on the subject.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 12:58:16 -0500
From: raven@phoenyx.net (Carl D. Cravens)
Subject: Re: Time Traveller...

On Sat, 29 May 1999 22:25:00 EDT, SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
><< NMR = Nuclear Magnetic Resonance.  It is a techniqe that analyzes

>Wow, what uses does this have?

I believe that's what MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging) used to be 
called. Maybe patients didn't like the "nuclear" part.

(I heard it as a joke that they changed the name because patients asking 
for an NMR didn't always get the procedure they expected.)

- -- 
Carl D. Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)
Don't bother pressing that key, there is no Esc.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 13:59:26 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit

Terry Mixon wrote:

> --- Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
>
> > >> Get a big map of the Marches, with starports, trade codes and WTNs
> > >> on each world, and x-boat routes inked in.
> > >
> > >Done. A combo of a photoshop map with the jump routes and a database
> > >of the trade information.
> >
> > Cool. Can you scan it and put it on the web ?
>
> No need to scan it, it is all digital. I can save it as a jpg
> at any time.

Make it s GIF instead.  Basically, JPG is better for lots of colors,
curves,
pictures of people, etc.  Where GIF is better for few colors, angular,
simpler images.

> I have some confused ideas about copyrights. I am uncertain that
> I should be making pubicly available that map without sjgames
> permission. I have sent them what I have and what I am doing
> and asked for that permission. Still waiting...

Asking for permission is always a good idea.  But if you made the
map yourself, not necessary.  If you use the wrods "Traveller" or
"Gurps: Traveller", I recommend you include (R) symbol and note
somewhere in the fine print that those are registered trademarks
of Far Future Enterprises and SJG, respectively.

> > >Good point. I have the Cronor subsector done and am ready to move
> > >on to it.
> >
> > Have you mailed SJ Games and/or Marc Miller yet ? I am filling out
> > the
> > approval for your application to the Imperial Ministry of Commerce
> > Central
> > Financial Committee (your signature is on the form, so you must have
> > signed
> > it, comrade).
>
> I did mail sjgames. Waiting on approval to post the map and database.
> <g>

The database is yours if you created it.
Ditto the map.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 18:30:35 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

John Wood wrote:

> Thanks to Ian and Jim for your answers on turnover - you are so quick
> responding! Yes, I must have meant revenue, and yes, it certainly does
> put things in perspective...
>
> Next question: is profit as a percentage of revenue correlated with
> company size at all? If Jamison Factors, Oberlindes, Tukera and
> Makhidkarun are all performing averagely for their size, what might
> their %age profit be?

Profit is not necessarily correlated with size.  There are economies of
scale on one side (increasing profits), but IIRC from my Anit-trust Law
courses, excess capacity and management overhead tend to decrease
profits (increase costs) as well.

Average profit be anything.  Most economic analysis is done at the
a minimal profit level.  A MegaCorp making .01% profit is still
profitable.  It may not be generating enough profits for increased
capitalization or expansion, but its still a profitable business.

> Also, could you give me a ballpark figure for maximum sustainable
> profit? I know these things fluctuate wildly. Saying Oberlindes
> generates 90% profit seems ridiculous and 1% seems reasonable, but I'm
> less sure about figures in between - what about 10%, 20% or 50%?

Sustainable profit isn't really a useful term.  Whats important is the size
of
the market.  That limits your expansion because you can only sell what
the market will buy.  If you increase supply too much, you're wasting your
resources.  In the abstract, the monopoly is the most profitable route to
go, if you can afford the costs of creating and maintaining one.  You have
to be in a position to undercut all rivals and potential rivals, so much so
that
it wouldn't be profitable for anyone else to even enter the market.  That
means you've got to keep your price low and that will limit the profits
you can gouge from the consumers.

One thing to remember in the Traveller context.  The 3I is a very
slow growth economy.  So low sustainable profits are probably
the norm for the MegaCorps.  If I were running Oberlindes, or Tukera,
etc., I had a stable 1% profit rate, I'd be very happy.

Jim and Ian can comment more accurately I'm sure.


- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:27:26 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re:Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

>Also, could you give me a ballpark figure for maximum sustainable
>profit? I know these things fluctuate wildly. Saying Oberlindes
>generates 90% profit seems ridiculous and 1% seems reasonable, but I'm
>less sure about figures in between - what about 10%, 20% or 50%?

I have put the far trader costs & revenues into a spreadsheet and come up with
profit figures on large optimized ships* in excess of 100%. This is not the
figure you should be looking at however.

You should be looking at return on investment (ROI). Effectively this is the
interest rate you get from investing your money in the business.  For a starship
your investment is 20% of the ships price tag, in this example about 600 MCr.
The profit per year is about 400 MCr so ROI is between 60 & 70%, which is very
nice indeed. Long term gains in the real world stock market would be around
15%.  Though I suppose some reduction should occur due to the overhead of the
shipping lines ground based operations.  

If this is typical then Imperial corporations are growing at around 60% a year
and someone is getting very rich indeed!

Have I missed something here?  This sounds a little too cosy.

Note that jump masking and the time you spend in port makes a huge difference to
the figures. If you choose only unmasked routes and spend only 2 days in port
then your return on investment would approximately double. So you would put huge
amounts of effort in ensuring you take minimally masked routes and minimizing
port time.

*20000 DT USL, J2, 0.6G, 200 empty turrets, 14236 Cargo, 95% loading.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 22:59:14 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [www] Freelance Traveller Updated - 30 May 1999

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller
Resource has posted its most recent update to
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller and
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.html.  With
this update, our Shipyard goes into high gear, with many new
designs from Naval architects Rob Prior, Craig Barnett, Steve
Hudson, and Peter H. Brenton.

Also, 101 Starships has been updated to the Third Edition, and is
available for download.

Alvin Plummer's "The Visitors" invokes memories of an old
miniseries and Jeff Zeitlin brings us the framework for an
adventure, "Saving the Throne", both in Active Measures.

We open up The Club Room with an article about the Ziranii, a
Vilani psionics society, by Jason Kemp.

Jason also gives us a Prior Career for Daryen characters in
MegaTraveller, the Order of Zar-Tis. Look for it in Doing It My
Way.

Although our Feedback and Ask Freelance Traveller pages are still
not working, your questions, comments, and ideas are always
welcome at Freelance Traveller.  Please write to
freetrav@hotmail.com with any and all of them.  Freelance
Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to
visit our site and justify our existence, and to write for us,
making our existence possible.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 18:54:13 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Spinward Marches Map

Among other distractions, I've finally started to work
on a small poster size map of the Spinward Marches.

The work is going much faster than I thought it would.
I could be done in one solid day of work.

You can see a preview of the Chronor subsector at:
http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/Travmaps/chronor.gif

It will be black stars on white background with grey
parsec and subsector borders.

Actual size will be about 22" x 34" with border.
The parsecs are 3/4" wide.

Two things I need:
1) Proofers.  I'm using GT:BtC and the SM map from
Darrians AM.  I don't want to miss any gas giants, or
Navy bases.  (In the example above, I know I need to
move some Zhodani navy bases so they aren't obscured
by the X-boat routes)..

2) Ideas for border text.  Primarily the bottom.  The side
border will have the subsector grid and name list as well
as the map legend, but there will still be some space
there:  19" x 5".  I might trim that space a bit for a big label,
but its still plenty of space for some useful text.  I was thinking
a timeline might be nice there. But any other ideas (and writers)
are welcome.

3) Opinions:  Political borders or not?

Once its all done, it would be very easy for me to add
trade routes.  But I'm not going to do the trade routes
myself, and I understand others are working on that.
- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 18:04:10 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Spinward Marches Map

You know, I don't want to be overly petty, but have you considered
adding hex numbers?

Steve Daniels wrote:

> Among other distractions, I've finally started to work
> on a small poster size map of the Spinward Marches.
>
> The work is going much faster than I thought it would.
> I could be done in one solid day of work.
>
> You can see a preview of the Chronor subsector at:
> http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/Travmaps/chronor.gif
>
> It will be black stars on white background with grey
> parsec and subsector borders.
>
> Actual size will be about 22" x 34" with border.
> The parsecs are 3/4" wide.
>
> Two things I need:
> 1) Proofers.  I'm using GT:BtC and the SM map from
> Darrians AM.  I don't want to miss any gas giants, or
> Navy bases.  (In the example above, I know I need to
> move some Zhodani navy bases so they aren't obscured
> by the X-boat routes)..
>
> 2) Ideas for border text.  Primarily the bottom.  The side
> border will have the subsector grid and name list as well
> as the map legend, but there will still be some space
> there:  19" x 5".  I might trim that space a bit for a big label,
> but its still plenty of space for some useful text.  I was thinking
> a timeline might be nice there. But any other ideas (and writers)
> are welcome.
>
> 3) Opinions:  Political borders or not?
>
> Once its all done, it would be very easy for me to add
> trade routes.  But I'm not going to do the trade routes
> myself, and I understand others are working on that.
> --
> Bloo
> Support Guru
> Roger Wilco
> http://www.rogerwilco.com/

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 19:25:18 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: First In - Starship Designs

In a message dated 5/29/99 4:16:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
John.Buston@tesco.net writes:

<< I know it is canon, but I still find it hard to believe that a ship would 
be
 built with no manouver capablity at all,  Is there a beleivable handwave for
 this? >>

yeah; in the original CT design, the X boat was such a tight design that 
there was NO room for it. I guess they decided to not "fix" this design. The 
plus side is that this gives the X boat some interesting RP problems: 1) the 
boat is imobile in normal space and 2) it has limited life support...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 20:39:24 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

John Buston wrote:

> >Also, could you give me a ballpark figure for maximum sustainable
> >profit? I know these things fluctuate wildly. Saying Oberlindes
> >generates 90% profit seems ridiculous and 1% seems reasonable, but I'm
> >less sure about figures in between - what about 10%, 20% or 50%?
>
> I have put the far trader costs & revenues into a spreadsheet and come up with
> profit figures on large optimized ships* in excess of 100%. This is not the
> figure you should be looking at however.
>
> You should be looking at return on investment (ROI). Effectively this is the
> interest rate you get from investing your money in the business.  For a starship
> your investment is 20% of the ships price tag, in this example about 600 MCr.
> The profit per year is about 400 MCr so ROI is between 60 & 70%, which is very
> nice indeed. Long term gains in the real world stock market would be around
> 15%.  Though I suppose some reduction should occur due to the overhead of the
> shipping lines ground based operations.
>
> If this is typical then Imperial corporations are growing at around 60% a year
> and someone is getting very rich indeed!
>
> Have I missed something here?  This sounds a little too cosy.

The 20% investment is only the down payment on the ship.  You have to
continually pay off the mortgage.  IIRC, the total amount invested in a
ship ends up being 220% of the purchase price.


- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 20:43:15 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Spinward Marches Map

Talisman wrote:

> You know, I don't want to be overly petty, but have you considered
> adding hex numbers?

Yes.  I intend to  But only for the parsecs that have systems.
Putting them off until the end.  I'll have to experiment with
superimposing them over X-boat routes (and trade routes)
or simply omitting them (ala the SM map in Darrians AM).
- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 12:00:34 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Errata for _Book 8: Robots_

Dear Folks -

Michael Hughes asked:
>Is there meant to be a Volume rating for installed devices/sensors/weapons
>in Book 8? The tables seem to only factor in weight, power and cost,
>perhaps assuming any devices added are external to the chassis. However,
under
>manipulator's, I think it says that they can hold twice their weight in
>installed devices etc.

>So, should a rule of thumb be Volume = Twice Weight?

The other thing missing is Tech Level.

Ages ago I went through my Book 8 and added errata as I found them, basing
a lot of stuff on the figures in the MT Ref's manual. Since the same people
wrote both books, I thought this was a reasonable approach. ;-)  Here is my
(non-exhaustive ;-) list.

- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
TRAVELLER _BOOK 8: ROBOTS_ ERRATA

The errata shown are only the *changes* or *additions* to what is in the
book, the rest of the surroundng text is unchanged.

NOTE: I have noted the source of each errata item. If it is in [brackets]
is is IMHO; all others are official.

p 26 "Wheels require at least 1.5% of chassis volume."

p 26 "Tracks require at least 2.0% of chassis volume."

p27 [mine] Multiply all chassis prices by 0.4, e.g. URP A should only cost
Cr1400.
(I think this is from comparing Bk8 with Striker or MT)

p27 [mine] Chassis Configuration Table
URP 1 Box Price Mod 0.6
URP 1 Needle/Wedge Price Mod x1.2
URP 2 Cylinder Price Mod Nil (Cone still 1.1)
(based on MT config table)

p27 Locomotion: Suspensions (Grav, Air Cushion)
URP C only available at TL 7
URP D only available at TL 9
URP E only available at TL 10
URP F only available at TL 12
Note that the values shown are for one unit of each suspension type (i.e.
these are the minimum values).

p27 Locomotion: Suspensions (Legs, Tracks, Wheels)
            Power
Each Leg    40kW
Track           30kW
Wheels      20kW
Each unit is per kW of power plant output.

p28 Appendage Table
TL   Type
8    Arm, very light
7    Arm, light
6    Arm, medium
5    Arm, heavy
12   Tentacle, very light
12   Tentacle, light
11   Tentacle, medium
10   Tentacle, heavy
Note that touch sensors are already built into all arms and tentacles.
(_101 Robots_, p2)
Volume = weight.

p29 Fundamental Logic Programs [mine, based on the text and MT TL tables]
Low Artificial Intel TL 16
High Artificial Intel TL 17+
Note that CPU = Parallel + Synap; e.g. URP 5, 30 CPU = 2 Parallel + 28
Synaptic.

p29 Sensors Table [mine, but all based on MT Ref's manual]
TL   Type           Volume    Power    Price
     Visual
6    +telescopic
7    +LI
6    +passive IR
6    +active IR
     Audio Sensor   1.0
     +extra sensit  1.0
     Olfactory      2.0
     +extra sensit  2.0
     :
     Voder          3.0
     :
     :
     :
6    Magnetic       2.0
6    Radiation      2.0
10   Mass Sensor   20.0       2.0      10000
11   Mass Sensor   10.0       1.0      10000
10   Neutrino       8.0                 1000
Apart from the listed figures, volume = weight x 2.
Note that Touch Sensors are already built into all arms and tentacles; the
values in the original table are only for the remainder of the body. This
explains why these figures are multiplied by the chassis size. (_101
Robots_, p2)

p30 Devices Table [mine, but all based on MT Ref's manual]
TL   Type           Volume
      Spotlight      2.0
13    Holorecorder  15.0
14    Holorecorder   6.0
15    Holorecorder   3.0
Apart from the listed figures, volume = weight.

p31 Weapons [mine, but all based on MT Ref's manual]
TL   Type           Power   Weight   Price
9    Laser Pistol   4.5      5.0      2500
13    Laser Pistol   9.0     10.0      5000
8     Laser Carbine
9     Laser Rifle
For this table, volume = weight.

- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
TRAVELLER _101 ROBOTS_ ERRATA

p 2 Retractable Appendages [mine]
Note that _101 Robots_ states that retractable appendages only take up
volume equals weight/2 (p2). I think this is wrong as it makes them magical
devices that can hold 4 times their weight in volume (since most devices
have a volume = weight x 2). This should be volume = weight (included in
the _Book 8_ errata, above).

p3 New Programs [mine]
Forensic Space 4
(I can't figure why it would be larger than some of the other programs)

p3 New Sensors [mine, but all based on MT Ref's manual]
TL   Type                    Weight   Price
5     Environ Sensor Pkg
13    Neural Activity Sensor  5.0      20000
- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #687
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Monday, May 31 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 688



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: First In - Starship Designs
Re: Time Traveller...
Re: Dust Explosives versus FAE (was:  something or other...)
Re: Heavy Fighter from Supp 9
Re: Fun things to do with a field phone (longish)
Re: Time Traveller... 
Re: Buckyballs: was Running a good mercantile campaign
Re: Buckyballs
Re: Shipping costs recap 
Re: OTU Cannon (was "Re: Computer Technology")
Re: Artwork
Re: 3I raising military forces
SJ Games Author's Wishlist
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files
Resistance to Interrogation (was: Re: ...field phone (longish))
Re: Dust Explosives versus FAE (was:  something or other...)
Fw: Dust Explosives versus FAE (was:  something or other...)
Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
Re: Temperatures.
Re: Buckyballs
Re: Toronto Traveller Meeting
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 22:51:31 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: First In - Starship Designs

- ----------
> From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: First In - Starship Designs
> Date: Sunday, 30 May, 1999 7:25 PM
> 
> In a message dated 5/29/99 4:16:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> John.Buston@tesco.net writes:
> 
> << I know it is canon, but I still find it hard to believe that a ship
would 
> be
>  built with no manouver capablity at all,  Is there a beleivable handwave
for
>  this? >>

Sure, cost and bureaucracy.  Arbellatra's original x-boat network was a
huge undertaking, so they pared costs to the bone.  M-drive was one victim.
  (A survival low berth for the crew was another.)  Since then,
bureaucratic inertia has stalled the introduction of a revised design.  The
main "argument" is that adding an M-drive would enlarge the number of spare
parts the x-boat network would have to stock and require M-drive mechanics
aboard the tenders, making the whole system more expensive to operate. 
Besides, new J-6 x-boats with limited M-drive are just around the corner. 
Of course, they've been just around the corner for centuries and no, I
don't want to start that particular debate again.
 
> yeah; in the original CT design, the X boat was such a tight design that 
> there was NO room for it. I guess they decided to not "fix" this design.
The 
> plus side is that this gives the X boat some interesting RP problems: 1)
the 
> boat is imobile in normal space and 2) it has limited life support...

Of course, the GT version doesn't have the second problem; a stateroom
includes extended LS that will last as long as the power supply holds
out(c. 200 years from activation)

Tom Schoene

PS: Seth, e-mail me.  I tried to reach you but AOL says your e-mail account
is full.  (which may mean you aren't getting TML either, but maybe not.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:15:29 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Time Traveller...

In a message dated 99-05-30 17:26:02 EDT, you write:

<< I believe that's what MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging) used to be 
 called. Maybe patients didn't like the "nuclear" part.

xxx
Oh, right <slaps self on head>
xxx
 
 (I heard it as a joke that they changed the name because patients asking 
 for an NMR didn't always get the procedure they expected.) >>

I won't even go there.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:22:20 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Dust Explosives versus FAE (was:  something or other...)

In a message dated 99-05-30 03:14:21 EDT, you write:

<< Probably not.  OTOH, flour can be produced at TL: very-low, while
 appropriate hydrocarbons for FAE bombs would require TL:
 not-quite-as-low.
 
 <tongue-in-cheek>
 Besides, how do you teach the wheat-sniffing dogs to distinguish between
 flour-based dust-initiator explosives and bread?
 </tongue-in-cheek>
 
 >>

Have them search for lighters.  
I can see it now a TL-[realy high number] Grav Tank is under a tree, suddenly 
flour drops out of the tree and a flaming torch comes at the tank, BOOM.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:23:35 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Heavy Fighter from Supp 9

In a message dated 99-05-30 02:59:15 EDT, you write:

<<  Cool 'dogfight' missiles. I've never seen them in any of the CT rules I 
have (Which ain't many) but you could use regular rules for the fighters but 
either make it were they have twice the load of missiles or have 2 missile 
launchers with the same amount of loads. As for the combat damage and to hit 
chance. Make them ignore the size difference of the fighter, but also make 
them not do any or little damage to larger ships. >>

Good idea, what I'm going for is something like the Wing Commander fighters.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:27:20 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fun things to do with a field phone (longish)

In a message dated 99-05-30 02:41:54 EDT, you write:

<< Pain is there for a reason:  it lets us know when we've had something
 bad happen to us.  There are people born without any sense of touch;
 they have to be _really_ careful, _all_ the time, or they don't notice
 that they've hurt themselves until it's too late to repair the damage.

xxxx
Good point, what about some sort of mechanical swich?
xxxx

 
 Physical torture yields very unreliable intelligence information.  After
 all, if I don't believe your answer, and inflict pain upon you to prove
 the point, you will eventually tell me what I want to hear.  How will
 you know what I want to hear?  Whatever you told me that made me stop
 _hurting_ you....

xxxxx
Good point number 2.
xxxx
 
 Now, if I have tortured you until you told me what I wanted to hear, how
 reliable is that information?  What if you had told me the truth the
 first time out, and I just didn't believe you?  This is more likely than
 is seems; from World War II through Vietnam, over 90% of prisoners of
 war told US interrogators the truth as they knew it, simply for the
 asking.  (Grenada, Panama, and Iraq have, as far as I can tell, provided
 even higher numbers.)  As a 97E4P (airborne qualified US Army
 interrogator, rank Sergeant First Class), I know whereof I speak on this
 matter.

xxxx
That can be a problem.
xxxx
 
 Besides, as I posted earlier, only amateurs torture prisoners _for
 information_. >>

Other than drugs how do you get info out of them?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:30:16 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Time Traveller... 

In a message dated 99-05-30 00:54:48 EDT, you write:

<< Medical scanners, among other things.  One such scan helped diagnose me as 
 post-polio (lotta missing & dying nerve tissue), the one I had most recently 
 pinpointed the area where I had a mild stroke a couple weeks back (they 
think 
 a piece of blood clot broke loose; all it did was take out a bit of my 'spam 
 filters' and left me a touch autistic; therapy *should* retrain the 
'filters', 
 or so they tell me...).
 
 Keven >>

I hope you get well, Keven.  
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:36:29 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Buckyballs: was Running a good mercantile campaign

In a message dated 99-05-30 00:27:40 EDT, you write:

<< >If you use an electrostatic (altho I think that you need
 >eltromagnetic) force  to keep anti-matter away from matter I must ask
 >the question: Why do you need  a buckyball?  You could do the same
 >thing with a tororal (dought shaped  magnet).
 
 That's why I asked it as a question, I don't know if it would work.
 However if it did you wouldn't have to take the special precautions
 in storing and transporting AM that you would have in other cases.
 
 The idea is that the electrons of the carbon would repel the
 anti-proton suspended in the center of the buckyball from all
 directions locking it into place where it couldn't come in contact
 with matter.  You could store the BB's at room temp, ship them, and
 bounce them around them around as long as you didn't "break the
 eggs."  Then when you are ready to "burn" the AM, you toss the BB's
 into a reaction chamber with plenty of matter and break the
 eggs...so to speak.

xxxx
Ah, the positron, yes, I do belive that it would work.
xxxx
 
 This is probably an unworkable idea, RW, but it might be interesting
 in a game. >>

There are a lot of people on this list who are much more quilified to respond 
to that.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:38:40 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Buckyballs

In a message dated 99-05-30 13:22:22 EDT, you write:

<< I don't think this would work. IIRC the field intensity inside a charged
 sphere is uniform, so there would be no net force holding the antiproton
 anywhere. >>

Untile it got closer to one side, assuming that elctrostatic forces work like 
gravity, it would be pushed back to the center.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:46:25 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Shipping costs recap 

In a message dated 99-05-20 21:16:07 EDT, you write:

<< > > >You don't happen to have a jump-20 pcs, do you?
 > > 
 > >  Funny you should ask - we're looking for lab anim^h^h ...test pilots :> 
>>

What about a compainion bot?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:50:25 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: OTU Cannon (was "Re: Computer Technology")

In a message dated 99-05-20 20:54:35 EDT, you write:

<<    Just how do you maintain operational security in the vicinity of a
    Psionics Institute?

xxxx
Some sort of psi-damper or a mind wipe, and then reload?
xxxx
 
    How do you keep your PC's butt from getting stomped by that little
    bird-like Droyne who flat-out was _not_ there a second ago? >>

Droyne, I have heard that before, but I can't seem to find more into, what 
are they other then bird like?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 15:00:06 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Artwork

Dear Glenn -

Thanks for the extensive response about your artwork! You also replied:
>>The other question arises from "Dead Meat" in the FT book: do you have
>>captions for all your pictures?

>Did they put that caption under it?

None of the illos have captions, unfortunately. And I can't just ask you
for a list if you don't have the book yet.

If I can write up a description for each pic, could you tell us your
original captions?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 01:07:50 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

In a message dated 99-05-20 07:42:42 EDT, you write:

<< 	A "standard" mercenary ticket. Allows the optimisation of cost
 	versus performance. (The TL16 unit from FFW would be my choice.)
 	This would surely fit the ethos of "economics is everything."
  >>

FFW?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:34:51 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: SJ Games Author's Wishlist

Steve Jackson Games has updated their solicited proposals wishlist. These
are the projects that they want to do, but are still looking for an author
with a good proposal:

http://www.sjgames.com/general/author/capsules.html

GURPS Traveller titles still up for grabs:

Alien Races III (Hivers and Droyne)
Alien Races IV (20 Minor Races)
Corsairs [*new]
Ground Forces (Imperial Army and Marines)
Modular Cutter
Nobles

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:01:31 -0800
From: Mike Wittek <mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files

This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format.

- --------------ms545A06CAD8E5F1A86D019485
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Greetings again Paul,
I own the same CD, and I have a program concluded the txt files that were with
the files with no extentions were indeed Mac Word files, so I will assume the
graphic files with the txt files are Mac produced as well. I could not open and
view them with nothing that I own. However, if you go one directory up, you
will find all the graphic files in GIF format.

Paul Schirf wrote:

> A number of files under the \Graphics\Deckplan\ subdirectory on the HIWG CD
> have no file extension.  The first six bytes of the files contain hex
> values: 44 52 57 47 4D 44 ...  which I read as DRWGMD.  Does anyone want to
> take a stab at identifying the filetype?
>
> Paul Schirf
> Paul@Schirf.com

- --
Mike Wittek | Vacaville, California
mailto:mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com | http://www.thelair.cnchost.com
     "Democracy isn't just the best form of government; It's the only one even
remotely worth a damn. Only democracy guarantees that people get what they
deserve."   --Zena Marley

REQ'D DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may not be
the opinion of my school or electronic courier. For that matter, it may not be
your opinion, but deal with it.


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SIb3DQEBAQUABIGAeWlGQYoFT6u4ikp7hxxtz2Z6ozYwkoc10DZdirXyTjdiPiYYMsU1OJ1h
5DecoKyAOYmyPjV9YF5DhJMf6UCPyHzFh0GxwV3UluCP966+UVNFX4dz7sZmqkk/pcyTkhkp
DSe3lvRSjO12/E8zlmO1GzylByMVwC+pIBMCdSH2AvM=
- --------------ms545A06CAD8E5F1A86D019485--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 03:12:23 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Resistance to Interrogation (was: Re: ...field phone (longish))

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-05-30 02:41:54 EDT, you write:
> 
> << Pain is there for a reason:  it lets us know when we've had something
>  bad happen to us.  There are people born without any sense of touch;
>  they have to be _really_ careful, _all_ the time, or they don't notice
>  that they've hurt themselves until it's too late to repair the damage.
> 
> xxxx
> Good point, what about some sort of mechanical swich?
> xxxx
> 
Why go to all the trouble of rewiring peoples' nervous systems to remove
or limit their response to pain, when I've already pointed out that
information gained through physical torture is unreliable?  Only amateur
interrogators will expect to get reliable information by using physical
torture, and amateurs are unlikely to know how effectively to question
prisoners to gain the desired information.

Just take it as a given that, without specialized training (little of
which has to do with enduring physical torture), nine out of ten
prisoners of war will answer any questions, truthfully and to the best
of their ability, without any need to persuade them to do so. 
(Unfortunately, I can't describe the US Department of Defense approved
resistance to interrogation techniques in this forum [they're
classified].)

Of course, the 90% figure applies to 20th century Solomani, and would
need to be adjusted (either up or down) to other societies and/or
species.  I wouldn't expect the numbers to vary more than, say, ten
percent in either direction, although a given interrogator would need to
be extensively schooled to detect deception in races other than
his/her/its own.

<<snip>>
> 
> Other than drugs how do you get info out of them?

Simple:  I ask questions.  The enemy prisoners of war answer them.  It
seems counter-intuitive, but prisoners of war generally _will_ answer
questions without any attempt to resist or deceive.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 03:17:01 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Dust Explosives versus FAE (was:  something or other...)

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
<<snip>>

> I can see it now a TL-[realy high number] Grav Tank is under a tree, suddenly
> flour drops out of the tree and a flaming torch comes at the tank, BOOM.

Trouble is, dust explosions need to be confined to be effective.  That's
why the experiment earlier in the thread required the cardboard oatmeal
box.  You can take out a building or other confined space, but not a
target in the open.

> -Stephen

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 01:54:46 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: Dust Explosives versus FAE (was:  something or other...)

Actually, both FAE and particulate-air-explosives rely on the increased
surface area to produce their effect.  Confinement is actually slightly
detrimental, theoretically.  In practice, the need to control the ratio of
air to explosive means that dispersal must be carefully controlled.  Since
aerosols can be more evenly and quickly dispersed, they are the choise of
the military.  The reason that powders rarely combust in regular use is that
the proper conditions are rare, and confinement (to a grain silo, say)
allows the greatest chance of achieving favorable conditions.

Both dust and aerosol explosions are similar in principal, but so far, the
properties of liquid explosives have been superior to particulates  for
military purposes.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

Whenever books are burned men also,
 in the end, are burned.- Heinrich Heine

.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Monday, May 31, 1999 1:19 AM
Subject: Re: Dust Explosives versus FAE (was: something or other...)


>> I can see it now a TL-[realy high number] Grav Tank is under a tree,
suddenly
>> flour drops out of the tree and a flaming torch comes at the tank, BOOM.
>
>Trouble is, dust explosions need to be confined to be effective.  That's
>why the experiment earlier in the thread required the cardboard oatmeal
>box.  You can take out a building or other confined space, but not a
>target in the open.
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 18:00:59 +0800
From: "Colin aka Arkham aka the God King" <astroboy@iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>>
> Sustainable profit isn't really a useful term.  Whats important is the
size
> of
> the market.  That limits your expansion because you can only sell what
> the market will buy.  If you increase supply too much, you're wasting your
> resources.  In the abstract, the monopoly is the most profitable route to
> go, if you can afford the costs of creating and maintaining one.  You have
> to be in a position to undercut all rivals and potential rivals, so much
so
> that
> it wouldn't be profitable for anyone else to even enter the market.  That
> means you've got to keep your price low and that will limit the profits
> you can gouge from the consumers.
>

There are other methods of maintaining a monopoly.  A couple that may be
relevant include:

- - controlling the relevant patents (and so preventing the competitors from
entering the market) and
- - have an exclusive right to a particular market  (Does the Imperial throne
have this power?)
- - engage in non-price based competition to keep competitors out.  This could
include anything from adding new features to an existing product to keep the
competitor looking old to outright attacks (rumour, innuendo and sabotage).

The last could provide some good plot hooks :)


Colin

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:08:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Temperatures.

In mail you write:

> I was wondering if anyone knew anything about the temperatures and pressures
> at which gasses freeze.
>
> Stonehaven has a surface pressure of 25atms, that's on the glacier not under
> it an equatorial temperature of -52 C and a polar temperature of -97 C.
>
> What's going to freeze there?

It's hard to find references to freezing points at other than
"standard" (1 atm) pressure. 

But CO2 should definitely freeze out on at least *part* of the planet.
It *may* be liquid in some places, but I'm not sure. 

I'd advise going to a library and thumbing thru the CRC Handbook of
Physics and Chemistry. It's got two *huge* sections that are useful for
this. One is properties of Inorganic chemicals, the other is properties
of Organic chemicals. 

The properties you want to check are the "critical temperature" and the
"critical pressure". A gas *cannot* be liquefied at temps above the
critical temperature. And the pressure required to liquefy it *at* the
critical temperature is the critical pressure.

Freezing *generally* doesn't depend on pressure. 

I'm pretty sure that things like oxygen and nitrogen *won't* freeze
under the conditions specified, heck, they probably won't even liquefy.

But the CO2 might prove *very* interesting. Methane and ammonia are a
couple of other things to check, but they *shouldn't* be present in an
atmosphere with any substantial percentage of oxygen. 

BTW, don't forget that at 25 atmospheres, the percentage of O2 in the
air had best be *very* low, or else it'll be *toxic*. 

Lets see. 1 atm = 15 psi, so 25 atm = 375 psi. You only need 3 psi of
O2 to breathe comfortably, 3/375 = 1/125 = .8%. So .8% O2 is all you
need to make the atmosphere breathable. At a guess, more than 3% will
make it toxic. 

Oh yeah, if the characters are either wading thru a pool of liquid CO2,
or get caught in CO2 "rain" (unlikely) the CO2 evaporating from contact
with their environment suits out to be a significant hazard. Even if
they are still getting enough O2, the CO2 is what triggers the
breathing reflex. So they could start panting or hyperventilate. And
CO2 is toxic in sufficiently high concentrations. 

Oh yeah, if they are going thru an area where the conditions have
frozen out the CO2, it *may* be possible for them to have breathing
problems due to the low CO2 level. Not likely, but possible.
  
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:25:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Buckyballs

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 99-05-30 13:22:22 EDT, you write:
>
> << I don't think this would work. IIRC the field intensity inside a charged
>  sphere is uniform, so there would be no net force holding the antiproton
>  anywhere. >>
>
> Untile it got closer to one side, assuming that elctrostatic forces work 
> like  gravity, it would be pushed back to the center.

Nope. It's just the same for gravity. The net force inside a hollow
sphere is *zero*. It takes calculus to prove, but what it amounts to is
that for *any* position inside the sphere, the forces from the near
side and the far side are opposite and equal. 

It's even stranger for a solid sphere of uniform density. Assuming that
you are a "ghost" that can pass thru the material without any trouble,
inside a solid sphere, you'll find that the gravitational attraction
varies *linearly* from full strength at the surface to 0 in the center.

Given the fact that the attraction inside a hollow sphere *is* zero,
it's not hard to work out that second result. You can just ignore the
portions of the sphere that are farther out than you are. 

You can even work out the attraction for a sphere of *non*-uniform
density this way. If we had an idea of how the density of Jupiter
varies with the radius, we could work out how the gravity varied as you
moved from the cloud tops to the core.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 09:31:06 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Toronto Traveller Meeting

> Ethan, you'd have received a personal invitation if I hadn't left your
> email address at work. Consider yourself invited anyway.

Doh!!! And I even checked my mail from home on Saturday, I just didn't read 
the TML digests... oh well. One of these days. So, who showed up?

ObTrav: I can't even meet up with Rob in one wee little city, how do all
those ex-Scouts who served on the same ship back in 1096 keep bumping
into each other across the Imperium? Do they ever wonder about the
coincidences?

- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 09:29:36 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

At 07:39 PM 5/29/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Paul Schirf wrote:
>
>>>What this says about the flexibility of Windows...
>
>>This has NOTHING to do with Windows.  In fact, it has more to do
with
>attempting
>>to make the CD readable by other *inferior* operating systems.
>>:-)


	Actually, it has *everything* to do with Winblows ... I've run into
this problem several times. Lord Bill and his evil minions decided
that the standard for long file names on CDs (ISO 9660 with Rockridge
extensions) wasn't good enough for them (translation: everybody else
used it, and would be able to read it). So Winblows deliberately uses
a different way, AND can't read the standard. Which sucks when most
thirdparty stuff is written to the standard. So if I've got a CD
(several, actually) with documentation in HTML on it, I can't use it
... when I click a link, the browser properly asks the operating
system to please fetch "Newfile.html" ... because that's what the
link is.  But the operating system, ignoring the LFN extensions,
can't see that file. 


	I just wish Linux were more mature as a desktop OS ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #688
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Monday, May 31 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 689



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

GT: Imperial Navy -- Call for Submissions
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues 
Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit
Re: Spinward Marches Map
Re: Spinward Marches Map
Re: Errata for _Book 8: Robots_
RE: Resistance to Interrogation
Re: Artwork
Re: Spinward Marches Map
Re: Spinward Marches Map
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues
Back from BayCon
Re: Toronto Traveller Meeting
Re: Grav seeking missiles
Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Rocket Bike
ATTN: Jon Zeigler
Scout Meetings
TAS Article: Cultural Differences Explained (almost on-topic)  (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 07:55:57 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: GT: Imperial Navy -- Call for Submissions

On 2 May 1999 14:10:36 GMT, thrash@io.com (Christopher Thrash) wrote:
> The authors of GURPS Traveller: Imperial Navy are looking for your 
> assistance! Details are posted on a web site (updated 2 May 99):
> 
> http://www.io.com/~thrash/ImpNavy.html
> 
> Additional information on this (and the GT: Starships project) can be 
> found at:
> 
> http://www.io.com/~thrash/starship.html
> 
> Submissions become property of SJ Games. I will accept submissions at 
> <thrash@io.com> on their behalf and forward them. Time is short to 
> contribute to this sourcebook -- first draft is due in June -- so 
> don't delay.

I have updated the wishlist with the current (31 May 99) status of 
submissions and some additional information from the authors -- check it out. 
Time is running out, but submissions are still welcome.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 09:58:34 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues 

> 	I just wish Linux were more mature as a desktop OS ...

It's certainly getting there, closer every day.  I just got through installing 
SuSe 6.1 on a virgin HD.  I was a bit miffed at all the *JUNK* it wanted to 
put on, and sendmail *still* isn't the easiest thing in the world to configure 
and deal with, but the KDE interface is intriguing, and GIMP *finally* works 
correctly for me now.

FWIW, I usually use Red Hat 4.x, and will probably end up going back to Red 
Hat 6.0 Real Soon Now.  IMNSFBHO, a Linux system that *needs* 5 CDs to 
*install* is a bit much, but it's got *everything* anybody could concieveably 
want...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 08:35:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit

- --- Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
 
> > No need to scan it, it is all digital. I can save it as a jpg
> > at any time.
> 
> Make it s GIF instead.  Basically, JPG is better for lots of colors,
> curves,
> pictures of people, etc.  Where GIF is better for few colors,
> angular,
> simpler images.

My bad, it is a gif. 
 
> > I have some confused ideas about copyrights. I am uncertain that
> > I should be making pubicly available that map without sjgames
> > permission. I have sent them what I have and what I am doing
> > and asked for that permission. Still waiting...
> 
> Asking for permission is always a good idea.  But if you made the
> map yourself, not necessary.  If you use the wrods "Traveller" or
> "Gurps: Traveller", I recommend you include (R) symbol and note
> somewhere in the fine print that those are registered trademarks
> of Far Future Enterprises and SJG, respectively.

I did draw the map myself. It took a bit and you would be surprised 
at the number of errors I found. Most of the Far Trader eratta 
for the trade info, I found and a slew of mis-numbered hexes and 
a mis-spelling or two. Maybe I will get an hinorable mention in 
the second printing. <g> Just kidding.
 
> > I did mail sjgames. Waiting on approval to post the map and
> > database.
> 
> The database is yours if you created it. Ditto the map.

I will see that they have the apropriate copyright notations and 
that I get them up soon then.

Thanks for the input.

Terry Mixon
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 11:15:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Spinward Marches Map

- --- Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:

> Among other distractions, I've finally started to work
> on a small poster size map of the Spinward Marches.

I sent you mine, via private mail.
 
> The work is going much faster than I thought it would.
> I could be done in one solid day of work.
> 
> You can see a preview of the Chronor subsector at:
> http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/Travmaps/chronor.gif

Looks good.
 
> It will be black stars on white background with grey
> parsec and subsector borders.
> 
> Actual size will be about 22" x 34" with border.
> The parsecs are 3/4" wide.
> 
> Two things I need:
> 1) Proofers.  I'm using GT:BtC and the SM map from
> Darrians AM.  I don't want to miss any gas giants, or
> Navy bases.  (In the example above, I know I need to
> move some Zhodani navy bases so they aren't obscured
> by the X-boat routes)..

Happy to assist. Fire me links to the address on the 
private mail I sent and I will help out. 
 
> 3) Opinions:  Political borders or not?

Might be difficult to get the exact border info.
 
> Once its all done, it would be very easy for me to add
> trade routes.  But I'm not going to do the trade routes
> myself, and I understand others are working on that.

Who? Oh, ME. <g>

Terry

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 12:47:06 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Spinward Marches Map

Terry Mixon wrote:
> 
> --- Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
> 
> > 3) Opinions:  Political borders or not?
> 
> Might be difficult to get the exact border info.
> 

I suggest leaving the borders out. That way, the map can be used for more
milieu. Personally, I'm very much looking forward to its completion, because my
group is about to enter the Fifth Frontier War. Having borders on the map would
confuse things.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 15:08:23 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Errata for _Book 8: Robots_

Thank you for that errata to book #8.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 15:17:26 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Resistance to Interrogation

Black ICE writes:
<snipped>
"Of course, the 90% figure applies to 20th century Solomani, 
and would need to be adjusted (either up or down) to other 
societies and/or species.  I wouldn't expect the numbers to 
vary more than, say, ten percent in either direction, although 
a given interrogator would need to be extensively schooled to 
detect deception in races other than his/her/its own."
<snipped>

	The 90% +/- 10% figures depend on how similar to us you
	expect the aliens to be. For example, races that have
	castes will probably have very different outlooks. IMTU
	Droyne soldiers, for example, are more loyal to their 
	queen than my hand is to me. Such a soldier avoids injury
	to itself only because being injured reduces its ability
	to defend the queen. Exactly how this mindset would 
	affect conduct under interogation is unclear, but their 
	reactions could easily be quite different those of us
	Solomani.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 15:06:12 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Re: Artwork

David Jaques-Watson  says,
>Thanks for the extensive response about your artwork! You also replied:
>>>The other question arises from "Dead Meat" in the FT book: do you have
>>>captions for all your pictures?

>None of the illos have captions, unfortunately. And I can't just ask you
>for a list if you don't have the book yet.
>If I can write up a description for each pic, could you tell us your
>original captions?

Since you're interested, I'll list my _Far Trader_ illustrations below,
with a short description of each. The names are just filenames, really,
rather than 'captions' per s, with only the occasional bit of irony thrown
in:

"Robots" -- Crazy Liaashi's Used Robots

"Hand Warmers" -- Customs inspector and Captain opening cargo container
full of, uh, "Hand Warmers"...

"Cargo Drop" -- Far Trader on the tarmac, with Vargr crane operator
accidentally dropping crates.

"Biohazard" -- K'kree with leaking cargo containers marked with biohazard
symbols.

"Crew Lounge" -- The common area of a trader, full of bored, cranky
crewmembers, in mid-Jump. The Vargr and crewman are playing some kind of 3D
strategy game (Gheta?). The "movie" on the big screen is actually one of my
illustrations for Star Mercs.

"Lost" -- two Travellers with map, arguing over which way to go in
maze-like low-tech city.

"Outpost" -- a Far Trader landing near a frontier outpost, with jubilant
space-suited figures. The suggestion being that ships from outsystem are
extremely rare here.

"Hijacking" -- Trader captain with pistol, reacting to security alert on
monitor.  (I was watching the film "Naked" on TV while I drew this, and the
Captain is loosely based on British actor David Thewliss -- who is utterly
brilliant in the film. Not that it has *anything* to do with the
illustration...)

"Paperwork" -- Trader captain in cramped quarters piled high with paperwork.

"Arms Fair" -- K'kree arms dealer with various firearms.

"Bar Fight" -- Two-fisted action, flying beermugs and all.

"Dead Meat" -- Stupid butcher offering a freshly killed duck to a Kkree.
Note the four-legged chicken on the chopping block.

Best,

Glenn

  "Another fertile source of ["moral insanity"] appears to be an undue
    indulgence in the perusal of the numerous works of fiction...with
the effect of vitiating the taste and corrupting the morals of the young.
 Parents cannot too cautiously guard their young daughters against this
pernicious practice." - Dr. W.H. Stokes, Scientific American, April 1849

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 16:51:52 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Spinward Marches Map

Erwin Fritz wrote:

> > --- Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > 3) Opinions:  Political borders or not?
>
> I suggest leaving the borders out. That way, the map can be used for more
> milieu. Personally, I'm very much looking forward to its completion, because my
> group is about to enter the Fifth Frontier War. Having borders on the map would
> confuse things.

DING!  DING! DING!

We have a winner.  No political borders.
When its done, you can add them yourself.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 15:07:52 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Spinward Marches Map

Steve Daniels wrote:
> 
> Erwin Fritz wrote:
> 
> > > --- Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > 3) Opinions:  Political borders or not?
> >
> > I suggest leaving the borders out. That way, the map can be used for more
> > milieu. Personally, I'm very much looking forward to its completion, because my
> > group is about to enter the Fifth Frontier War. Having borders on the map would
> > confuse things.
> 
> DING!  DING! DING!
> 
> We have a winner.  No political borders.
> When its done, you can add them yourself.

Aw, shucks. (*blush*). That's the first time I've ever won something. I ... I
don't know what to say.

:-)

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 17:32:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

>Mac users need to be aware of the fact that their files need some 'cleaning
>up' before they can be used properly on a PC.  Especially before
>Toasting an ISO 9660 CD.  Strip all the resource forks and rename all the
>files into 8.3 format.  Images should be saved as GIF, JPEG, BMP,
>or something that anyone with a cheap DOS box can read.  Leave the fancy
>TIFF, PDF and EPS files to the people who have spent a little
>money on their system (or have a newer system).  Do not give a PICT file to
>a Wintel user.  Though Mac is able to read PC files (except
>executables if you don't have VPC or equivalent), the reverse is not true.

I have an amusing, sad, and very long off-topic story about this, but I'll
leave it out.

A better solution might be to make the CD in dual-format.

>Thinking along these lines (and striving lamely to steer on-topic -- sorry),
>has anyone come up with a system for CT computers that has been
>'revised' to account for some of the more obvious technical advancements
>that have been made since HG was printed?

I just assume that the operating system, like Windows, chews up most
increases in hardware efficiency. Any remaining increase is used up by the
bloated software. The Hivers' real computer advantage is that they don't
let Microsoft LIC near their computers :-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 14:45:30
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Back from BayCon

Well, the Bay Con TML get together went very well.  We had about fifteen
people show up, and the conversation was excellent, and the food good.  As
soon as I get the pictures back, I'll be making my demands.. err.. posting
them to the web page for all to admire.

One amusing bit as we were all eating, my wife leaned over to me and
whispered "my God, you've been cloned.."

After dinner, a few of us drifted over to the Quiet Bar for a few drinks
and a theoretical game of the Baron Munchasen RPG.  While we never got into
that, we did get an amusing game of "who's on first" between Glenn Goffin
and our wait-being over the availability of single-malt scotch.

Next year, I plan on hosting the Emperor's Golden Jubilee Party, so start
getting ready!
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 18:12:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Toronto Traveller Meeting

>> Ethan, you'd have received a personal invitation if I hadn't left your
>> email address at work. Consider yourself invited anyway.
>
>Doh!!! And I even checked my mail from home on Saturday, I just didn't read
>the TML digests... oh well. One of these days. So, who showed up?

Juliean Galak, Steve Weber, Doug Sinclair, and myself (plus significant
others).

>ObTrav: I can't even meet up with Rob in one wee little city, how do all
>those ex-Scouts who served on the same ship back in 1096 keep bumping
>into each other across the Imperium? Do they ever wonder about the
>coincidences?

Um, they read their xmail? :-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 19:21:45 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Grav seeking missiles

>From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
>Subject: Coming Back to the Game

>I assumed, based on the above stated model,
>that with the introduction of grav vehicles approximately one tech level
>later crude "grav seeking" missiles would appear.    I had intended to write
>up an article "Weapons of the Fifth Frontier War".   I am curious if anyone
>would be interested in corresponding privately on the subject.

Gravity wave detection is something that has been dealt with in Bruce
Macintosh's Definitive Sensor Rules.

Basically, they are too big to put in missiles. However, the bad news for
grav tankers is that a fairly cheap sensor (MCr100 or so) individually
resolves grav tanks at continental range.

One would assume you then use other weapons to actually blow up the
preumably point-defense armed tanks.

Ditzie has got the TL12 fusion-gun armed helicopter nearly finished. It's
designed to solve this problem by not using grav or nuclear technologues.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 19:25:26 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

>From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
>Subject: Re:Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
>
>I have put the far trader costs & revenues into a spreadsheet and come up
with
>profit figures on large optimized ships* in excess of 100%. This is not the
>figure you should be looking at however.

I'm interested. Under what conditions ? What design of ship ? How many
jumps a year ? Are you getting 'basic' rates, or 'tramp' rates ? Lotsa
questions :)

>
>You should be looking at return on investment (ROI). Effectively this is the
>interest rate you get from investing your money in the business.  For a
starship
>your investment is 20% of the ships price tag, in this example about 600 MCr.
>The profit per year is about 400 MCr so ROI is between 60 & 70%, which is
very
>nice indeed. Long term gains in the real world stock market would be around
>15%.  Though I suppose some reduction should occur due to the overhead of the
>shipping lines ground based operations.  



>
>If this is typical then Imperial corporations are growing at around 60% a
year
>and someone is getting very rich indeed!
>
>Have I missed something here?  This sounds a little too cosy.
>
>Note that jump masking and the time you spend in port makes a huge
difference to
>the figures. If you choose only unmasked routes and spend only 2 days in port
>then your return on investment would approximately double. So you would
put huge
>amounts of effort in ensuring you take minimally masked routes and minimizing
>port time.

Yes. This is part of why jump masking sucks IMO - it results in lots of
additional complication, for very little result (the market would of course
adjust rates to masked and non-masked worlds - if it takes 11 days to get
to X and 7 days to get to Y, you will be paid about 11/7 times more to go
to X than Y).

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 19:50:53 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

>From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
>Subject: Re: Heavy Fighter from Supp 9
>
>>What I'm going for is a fighter (10-20 ton) that has a few light missiles
for 
>
>>shooting at other fighters.
>
>>-Stephen
>
>>
>
>
> Cool 'dogfight' missiles. I've never seen them in any of the CT rules I
have (Which ain't many) but you could use regular rules for the fighters
but either make it were they have twice the load of missiles or have 2
missile launchers with the same amount of loads. As for the combat damage
and to hit chance. Make them ignore the size difference of the fighter, but
also make them not do any or little damage to larger ships.

Missiles in Trav generallywork by using X-ray detonation lasers - you just
cant get an impact against military ships doing anything else. I suppose
you could build a short duration 'dash pack' missile, but I think it owuld
be more effective to use in a counter-missile role (missiles dont tend to
mount point defenses). A cheap combustion laser can be built under FFS2,
and replace an x-ray det laser.

If you want a light fighter, many many moons ago I put out a RFT for the
10-20 dton Wasp design. A very helpful person designed it for me, but I
lost the design when my old hard drive with my mail archives died - does
anyone have it ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 20:07:42 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Rocket Bike

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Rocket Bike
>
>In mail you write:
>
>It's much simpler to just *carry* oxygen for a "normal" engine.
>Hyper-golic fuels are *too* energetic. 
>

What I want is something that is possible at TL6, cheap and insanely
dangerous.

One of my theories is that the Flexii have a workable deposit of nitrogen
tetraoxide somewhere near their sealed city - possibly in a volcanically
active area.

>Also, for a ground vehicle, hydrogen peroxide might be a better choice.
>It's a good monopropellant. Pass it over any of a number of catalysts
>and you get a mix of superheated steam and free oxygen. 
>
>You either use the steam straight to run pistons or even a turbine, or
>you use the H2O2 as an oxidizer and bring in the exotic atmosphere to
>work with it. 

I'm figuring piston ignition. It isnt an actual 'rocket bike', although the
Tourist Model might be.

>Almost all "exotic" atmospheres will be either oxidizing or reducing.
>In an oxidizing atmosphere, you use the local air and supply fuel. In a
>reducing atmosphere, the air is "fuel" and you supply the oxidizer. 

I'm not a chemist. Is chlorine oxidizing or reducing ?

>Anyway, if the local atmosphere is oxidizing *or* reducing, engines
>that use the local atmosphere are both possible, and simpler than
>self-contained units.

OK. Give me a reaction that works for a piston engine in a chlorine-rich
Exotic atmosphere (Flexos is listed as 'exotic' rather than 'insidious', so
I'm inclined to think it isnt a horribly lethal chemical soup, just a
reasonably lethal chemical soup).

<further discussion of nasty chemicals snipped>

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 15:59:00
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: ATTN: Jon Zeigler

I can't remember if Jon is still on the list, so if he isn't, could
somebody please pass this on to him?

While at BayCon, I found myself alone with Poul Anderson for a few minutes.
 He's a regular at Bay Area cons.  Pulling out _First In_, I asked him if
he knew that he had a game book dedicated to him.  He told me hadn't, and
asked to see the book.  He flipped through it for a little while, until he
had to leave for a lunch date.  He told me to pass on to the author (and
everyone involved) that he was honored to have his name associated with the
product, and he like what he saw in the book.

(He especially liked Glenn Grant's illo on page 129)
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 15:06:18 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Scout Meetings

>Doh!!! And I even checked my mail from home on Saturday, I just didn't read
>the TML digests... oh well. One of these days. So, who showed up?
>
>ObTrav: I can't even meet up with Rob in one wee little city, how do all
>those ex-Scouts who served on the same ship back in 1096 keep bumping
>into each other across the Imperium? Do they ever wonder about the
>coincidences?
>
Well, IMTU, it works sorta like this:

Most worlds have one or two bars near or in the extrality zone that cater
to scouts and ex-scouts (IMTU, the SM has a chain called "The Dead
Spacer"); all dead spacer's are run by a local ex-scout, but owned by a
private-stock company with the bylaw tthat only a scout may buy in. They
will serve anybody. Most scouts on a world will at least check in at the
spacer... additionally, it serves as a point of contact for many scouts
who've settled down: Ask the barkeep for the contact list (names only),
tell him who you want, he calls them, and gives them your contact info.


William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 10:27:57 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: TAS Article: Cultural Differences Explained (almost on-topic)  (long)

Dear Folks -

Here is a recent Internet joke:
- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Travel Article: Cultural Differences Explained

ABROAD
AUSSIES: Dislike being mistaken for Pommies (Brits) when abroad.
CANADIANS: Are rather indignant about being mistaken for Americans when
abroad.
AMERICANS: Encourage being mistaken for Canadians when abroad.
BRITS: Can't possibly be mistaken for anyone else when abroad.

MATES
AUSSIES: Believe you should look out for your mates.
BRITS: Believe that you should look out for those people who either belong
to
your club or used to go to your school.
AMERICANS: Believe that people should look out for & take care of
themselves.
CANADIANS: Believe that that's the government's job.

PATRIOTISM
AUSSIES: Are extremely patriotic to their beer.
AMERICANS: Are flag-waving, anthem-singing, and obsessively patriotic to
the point of blindness.
CANADIANS: Can't agree on the words to their anthem, when they can be
bothered to sing them.
BRITS: Do not sing at all but prefer a large brass band to perform the
anthem.

TELEVISION
AMERICANS: Spend most of their lives glued to the idiot box.
CANADIANS: Don't, but only because they can't get more American channels.
BRITS: Pay a tax just so they can watch four channels.
AUSSIES: Export all their crappy programs - which no-one at home watches -
to
Britain, where everybody loves them.

SPORT
AMERICANS: Will jabber on incessantly about football, baseball, and
basketball.
BRITS: Will jabber on incessantly about cricket, soccer, and rugby.
CANADIANS: Will jabber on incessantly about hockey, hockey, hockey, hockey,
and how they beat the Americans twice, playing baseball.
AUSSIES: Will jabber on incessantly about how they beat the Poms in every
sport they play them in.

LANGUAGE
AMERICANS: Spell words differently, but still call it "English".
BRITS: Pronounce their words differently, but still call it "English".
CANADIANS: Spell like the Brits, pronounce like Americans.
AUSSIES: Add "G'day", "mate" and a heavy accent to everything they say in
a desperate attempt to get laid.

SHOPPING
BRITS: Shop at home and have goods imported because they live on an island.
AUSSIES: Shop at home and have goods imported because they live on an
island.
AMERICANS: Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas, & liquor in a
backwards country.
CANADIANS: Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas, & liquor in a
backwards country.

BEER
AMERICANS: Drink weak, pissy-tasting beer.
CANADIANS: Drink strong, pissy-tasting beer.
BRITS: Drink warm, beery-tasting piss.
AUSSIES: Drink anything with alcohol in it.

WEALTH
AMERICANS: Seem to think that poverty & failure are morally suspect.
CANADIANS: Seem to believe that wealth and success are morally suspect.
BRITS: Seem to believe that wealth, poverty, success and failure are
inherited things.
AUSSIES: Seem to think that none of this matters after several beers.
- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

My question is this: can we come up with something similar for Doug's
"Silly Era" web site? I was thinking of comparing Solomani, Zhodani,
Vilani, and probably one or two other aliens.



We'll call it:

TAS Article: Cultural Differences Explained



;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #689
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, June 1 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 690



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fighter stuff
Jump Masking, 3D Mapping, and Steller Frequency (oh, my!)
Re: Errata for _Book 8: Robots_
Re: Fun things to do with a field phone 
Re: Jump Masking, 3D Mapping, and Steller Frequency (oh, my!)
RE: Fighter stuff
Re: Buckyballs
Re: Fun things to do with a field phone 
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #689
RE: Fighter stuff
Reactivating the THUDDD
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #689
Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit
RE: Fighter stuff
Re:Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
Re: Rocket Bike
RE: Fighter stuff
Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit
RE: Fighter stuff
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #689
Linux (was Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 18:39:45 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

At 07:50 PM 5/31/99 +1100, you wrote:
>
>Missiles in Trav generallywork by using X-ray detonation lasers - you just
>cant get an impact against military ships doing anything else. I suppose
>you could build a short duration 'dash pack' missile, but I think it owuld
>be more effective to use in a counter-missile role (missiles dont tend to
>mount point defenses). A cheap combustion laser can be built under FFS2,
>and replace an x-ray det laser.
>
>If you want a light fighter, many many moons ago I put out a RFT for the
>10-20 dton Wasp design. A very helpful person designed it for me, but I
>lost the design when my old hard drive with my mail archives died - does
>anyone have it ?
>
>Ian Whitchurch
>

  I thought the Det-lasers are a new addition to the rules (TNE on). I've
always IMTU had the CT missiles compared to the missiles of today. With
very fast engines (10-20 G's) with superior handling and ECM/ECCM built in.
If a sidewinder missile could catch a fighter going mk1-2 and jigging and
zagging and hit, why couldn't a Hi-Tech missile in space do the same thing?
Besides a Det-missile waists a lot of it's warhead strength (at least it
would seem so) in converting it to a laser. So it would seem that if a
missile were to deliver its warhead directly more damage would be done for
the same size warhead.
  But then again, I am not a scientist or engineer. And the fact that we
don't have any real world example's of Det-Lasers to go by I could be
mistaken.

 Joe
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 19:29:50 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Jump Masking, 3D Mapping, and Steller Frequency (oh, my!)

>Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 19:25:26 +1100
>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
>
>Yes. This is part of why jump masking sucks IMO - it results in lots of
>additional complication, for very little result (the market would of course
>adjust rates to masked and non-masked worlds - if it takes 11 days to get
>to X and 7 days to get to Y, you will be paid about 11/7 times more to go
>to X than Y).

Problem #1: the effect of jump masking is a function of time -- the
configuration changes as the mainworld goes through its local year. 

Problem #2: the effect is different for every system within jump range
[this is an assumption based on a 3D model, but as there is no evidence
either for or against it, it will have to do].

The math isn't terribly complicated (especially if you assume circular
orbits) but without some kind of conversion from 3D reality to 2D Traveller
map there's no good way to represent it. Hence the random walk method. 

If we were starting over from oh, say, 1982 (before the publication of Book
6: Scouts) and assuming jump masking is here to stay, I'd lobby for skewing
the stellar frequency table for inhabited systems heavily towards the F5
through K5 stars. This would represent the small fraction of stars that are
actually present on a Traveller map, provide some justification for
colonies on cruddy worlds ("Well, the *star* was nice, anyway..."), and
incidently cut the occurance of jump masking to less than half. It's all
those M-class stars that make the average so high.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 22:34:23 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Errata for _Book 8: Robots_

I accidentely deleted it...:-(. Can the author please privately E mail me. I 
also think my hardrive is dying so this hopefully will get to me to download 
before the big crash...

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 22:36:56 -0400
From: "Judith Carlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Fun things to do with a field phone 

>Other than drugs how do you get info out of them?
>- -Stephen

Ever hear of psionics?


Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 00:15:51 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Masking, 3D Mapping, and Steller Frequency (oh, my!)

>
> Problem #2: the effect is different for every system within jump range
> [this is an assumption based on a 3D model, but as there is no evidence
> either for or against it, it will have to do].
>
> The math isn't terribly complicated (especially if you assume circular
> orbits) but without some kind of conversion from 3D reality to 2D Traveller
> map there's no good way to represent it. Hence the random walk method.

Even a circular orbit could be "unmasked" depending on the normal to the
system's orbit.  This particularly applies to 3D where you might enter a system
from "below".  In fact, unless the star's 100D limit encompasses the target
planet, a "random" orbital normal will rarely mask a target planet.  Those jumps
that do result in potential maskings (where jump vector is near the plane of the
ecliptic) can be charted and timed so as to avoid those pesky accidental
maskings.

As to the 3D conversion of the 2D maps, I've got a method to convert the 4 digit
2D coordinates into 3D space, but "close" systems may not be so in the
conversion and you can just about forget about those rifts.  For those making
random sectors, you'd have to come up with new stellar probabilities because the
existing ones would almost  guarantee a system within 3 pc even in a rift.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 22:34:35 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Fighter stuff

One of the things against "normal" missles, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, is their
(alleged by some) succeptibility (sp?) to  PDL (Point Defense Laser) fire.
Up to you as to how it works in YTU, YMMV.

Best,
Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Joe Kirby
> Sent: Monday, May 31, 1999 4:40 PM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Fighter stuff
>
>
> At 07:50 PM 5/31/99 +1100, you wrote:
> >
> >Missiles in Trav generallywork by using X-ray detonation lasers
> - you just
> >cant get an impact against military ships doing anything else. I suppose
> >you could build a short duration 'dash pack' missile, but I
> think it owuld
> >be more effective to use in a counter-missile role (missiles dont tend to
> >mount point defenses). A cheap combustion laser can be built under FFS2,
> >and replace an x-ray det laser.
> >
> >If you want a light fighter, many many moons ago I put out a RFT for the
> >10-20 dton Wasp design. A very helpful person designed it for me, but I
> >lost the design when my old hard drive with my mail archives died - does
> >anyone have it ?
> >
> >Ian Whitchurch
> >
>
>   I thought the Det-lasers are a new addition to the rules (TNE on). I've
> always IMTU had the CT missiles compared to the missiles of today. With
> very fast engines (10-20 G's) with superior handling and ECM/ECCM
> built in.
> If a sidewinder missile could catch a fighter going mk1-2 and jigging and
> zagging and hit, why couldn't a Hi-Tech missile in space do the
> same thing?
> Besides a Det-missile waists a lot of it's warhead strength (at least it
> would seem so) in converting it to a laser. So it would seem that if a
> missile were to deliver its warhead directly more damage would be done for
> the same size warhead.
>   But then again, I am not a scientist or engineer. And the fact that we
> don't have any real world example's of Det-Lasers to go by I could be
> mistaken.
>
>  Joe
> --
>    Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
> warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 02:19:33 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Buckyballs

In a message dated 99-05-31 07:48:49 EDT, you write:

<< Nope. It's just the same for gravity. The net force inside a hollow
 sphere is *zero*. It takes calculus to prove, but what it amounts to is
 that for *any* position inside the sphere, the forces from the near
 side and the far side are opposite and equal. 

xxxx
Hmm, darn, mark it off the list.
xxxx
 
 It's even stranger for a solid sphere of uniform density. Assuming that
 you are a "ghost" that can pass thru the material without any trouble,
 inside a solid sphere, you'll find that the gravitational attraction
 varies *linearly* from full strength at the surface to 0 in the center.

xxxx
Interesting, eh?  Now if you compact it...
xxxx 

 Given the fact that the attraction inside a hollow sphere *is* zero,
 it's not hard to work out that second result. You can just ignore the
 portions of the sphere that are farther out than you are. 
 
 You can even work out the attraction for a sphere of *non*-uniform
 density this way. If we had an idea of how the density of Jupiter
 varies with the radius, we could work out how the gravity varied as you
 moved from the cloud tops to the core. >>

Would there be anything that could hold anti matter with out a tordiral 
magnet?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 02:50:38 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fun things to do with a field phone 

In a message dated 99-05-31 22:40:28 EDT, you write:

<< Ever hear of psionics?
 
 
 Terry C
 
 All that is Gold does not glitter
 Not all who travel are lost  >>

Hmm, what  MOS (is that even the right term, Military Ocupatinal Study?) for 
Psionic inerigator in the US Army?
- -Stephen 
Sorry for all the mis-spellings

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 02:59:41 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #689

Doug Berry sez,

>While at BayCon, I found myself alone with Poul Anderson for a few minutes.
> He's a regular at Bay Area cons.  Pulling out _First In_, I asked him if
>he knew that he had a game book dedicated to him.  He told me hadn't, and
[smip]
>(He especially liked Glenn Grant's illo on page 129)

Cool!

I still don't have my copies (Loren?!), but let me guess which illo: the
one with the Giant Space Chicken tracks, right?

Best,

 + GMG +

               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net>
   "How come if we can send a man to the Moon, we can't
             send a man to the Moon anymore?"
           --Cmdr Rick, _Prisoners of Gravity_

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 02:03:44 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: RE: Fighter stuff

At 10:34 PM 5/31/99 -0700, you wrote:
>One of the things against "normal" missles, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, is their
>(alleged by some) succeptibility (sp?) to  PDL (Point Defense Laser) fire.
>Up to you as to how it works in YTU, YMMV.
>
>Best,
>Jesse
>

  Oh. But when do PDL's become available? Is that something introduced in
MT or T4? I know that I have allowed my players the opportunity to fire
there lasers at Missiles in lew of firing at the other ship, but as I see
it. Firing at a small object that is using active Evasion maneuvers would
be extremely hard to hit.
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 00:33:19 -0700
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net>
Subject: Reactivating the THUDDD

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jason T. Barnabas <cybernaut@netzero.net>
To: ISBA 2 Mailing List <isba@oasis.leo.org>; ISBA Mailing List
<isba@goldinc.com>
Cc: Trav Tech <trav-tech@qrc.com>
Date: Friday, May 28, 1999 7:08 PM
Subject: [TTL] Reactivating the THUDDD


>It seems that I will be taking over the coordination of the THUDDD (that's
>what I get for opening my big mouth).
>
>There are certain aspects of reopening the THUDDD competitions that might
>benefit from some feedback and I was thinking that perhaps those who belong
>to the ISBA might be interested in contributing.  The reason I'm writing
>this missive to let you know that I will be using the main ISBA list to
>discuss these topics (assuming that no one objects).
>
>While comparing the subscription lists for the ISBA mailing lists, I
noticed
>that of the 55 addresses on the two lists, only 3 are not on the main list
><isba@goldinc.com> (or perhaps they are signed on the goldinc list using
>another address).
>
>To subscribe to the ISBA main list send an email to
<majordomo@goldinc.com>,
>with the command line "subscribe isba" (without the quote marks) in the
body
>of the email or if you are writing from another address you can use
>"subscribe isba <username@your_isp.suf>".
>--
>Sincerely,
>
>Jason Barnabas
>
>
>


________________________________________________________
NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet.  Shouldn't you?
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 03:17:57
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #689

At 02:59 AM 6/1/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Doug Berry sez,
>
>>While at BayCon, I found myself alone with Poul Anderson for a few minutes.
>> He's a regular at Bay Area cons.  Pulling out _First In_, I asked him if
>>he knew that he had a game book dedicated to him.  He told me hadn't, and
>[smip]
>>(He especially liked Glenn Grant's illo on page 129)
>
>Cool!
>
>I still don't have my copies (Loren?!), but let me guess which illo: the
>one with the Giant Space Chicken tracks, right?

"All work and no play make Eneri a dull boy."  I explained the context.
Didn't know he used to work for the Post Office...
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 07:13:58 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit

Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > No need to scan it, it is all digital. I can save it as a jpg
>> > at any time.
>>
>> Make it s GIF instead.  Basically, JPG is better for lots of colors,
>> curves,
>> pictures of people, etc.  Where GIF is better for few colors,
>> angular,
>> simpler images.
>
>My bad, it is a gif.

I generated up a sector map for a wargame I was running (Fifth Millennium)
- - basically, it was the Solomani Rim. I tried a number of formats (TIF,
GIF, JPG and BMP) and was lucky to get the map less than 1.5Mb in size. I
think the smallest I managed was 800kb when I'd Stuffed it after generation.

I then switched to Illustrator and generated the map as a vector file (took
a while to do) and saved it out as a PDF which was <500kB on completion.

This was helped a lot by someone on the TWG (Andrew Akins IIRC) who posted
the sector and subsector grids as an EPS file).

There's an example of the subsector file on the BITS website Archive page
(Sylea in MO).

>> Asking for permission is always a good idea.  But if you made the
>> map yourself, not necessary.  If you use the wrods "Traveller" or
>> "Gurps: Traveller", I recommend you include (R) symbol and note
>> somewhere in the fine print that those are registered trademarks
>> of Far Future Enterprises and SJG, respectively.

I checked with Marc Miller if it was okay to use the map. He responded that
as long as it was not for profit, and I put the FFE disclaimer on
trademark, it was okay. I suggest you contact him and check. He responded
within a week, IIRC.

>I will see that they have the apropriate copyright notations and
>that I get them up soon then.

BITS will happily mirror them for you, if you'd like.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 11:22:56 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: RE: Fighter stuff

At 02:03 01/06/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>At 10:34 PM 5/31/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>One of the things against "normal" missles, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, is their
>>(alleged by some) succeptibility (sp?) to  PDL (Point Defense Laser) fire.
>>Up to you as to how it works in YTU, YMMV.
>>
>>Best,
>>Jesse
>>
>
>  Oh. But when do PDL's become available? Is that something introduced in
>MT or T4? I know that I have allowed my players the opportunity to fire
>there lasers at Missiles in lew of firing at the other ship, but as I see
>it. Firing at a small object that is using active Evasion maneuvers would
>be extremely hard to hit.

The problem is in the Laws of Physics:

speed of light             (c) 300,000 km/s
acceleration of missile    (a)   1,000 G
target range               (r)   1,000 km
time available for evasion (t)     6.7 ms
maximum evasion distance   (d)      22 cm

where t = 2r/c
      d = (1/2)at^2
        = 2ar^2/c^2

The problem is that the r^2/c^2 term dominates all realistic values
of acceleration until the distance is into the significant fraction
of a light second.

And if you haven't heard of PDL's in CT, then I haven't heard of 1,000G
missiles  in CT either. Your standard 6G6 missile can evade by 22 cm at
a distance of 13,000km.

And don't forget, this is maximum evasion - max acceleration perpendicular
to line of flight in one direction for the entire period between lidar
pulse and laser pulse.

This also tends to be along the longest dimension of the missile and
most long range missiles will be more than 22cm long.

The net result is that PDLs destroy contact missiles (including those
that fragment at a few hundred km) at a rate equal to their ROF.

My assumption is that in High Guard, this is why your factor 1-4 laser
turret defends against a factor 1-2 missile attack from a fighter as one
die roll. To get factor 2 missile, your fighter fires ALL its missiles
in one go.

"Broken" fighter designs which fire dozens of missiles are not legal
under High Guard and are easilly dealt with by FFS laser turrets that
can destroy *thousands* of missiles per turn.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 15:36:02 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re:Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

>> If this is typical then Imperial corporations are growing at around 60% a
>> year and someone is getting very rich indeed!
>>
>> Have I missed something here?  This sounds a little too cosy.

> The 20% investment is only the down payment on the ship.  You have to
> continually pay off the mortgage.  IIRC, the total amount invested in a
> ship ends up being 220% of the purchase price.

Yes I thought of this, but the mortgage payments are subsumed in the operating
costs of the business. So you are getting a return as soon as you have paid the
initial 20%, and your revenues are covering your mortgage payments the same as
any other cost.

I have just checked with my accountant sister-in-law and she says that if I want
to do it this way then I should use cost to date, including all direct costs
(e.g. maintenance, spares, etc.) to calculate the return. No lets not do that...

I think this means we are both right but at different times!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 12:13:07 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket Bike

At 20:07 31/05/1999 +1100, an or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
>
>>Almost all "exotic" atmospheres will be either oxidizing or reducing.
>>In an oxidizing atmosphere, you use the local air and supply fuel. In a
>>reducing atmosphere, the air is "fuel" and you supply the oxidizer. 
>
>I'm not a chemist. Is chlorine oxidizing or reducing ?

oxidizing, just not as good as oxygen but the combustion byproducts
are more "fun".

>>Anyway, if the local atmosphere is oxidizing *or* reducing, engines
>>that use the local atmosphere are both possible, and simpler than
>>self-contained units.
>
>OK. Give me a reaction that works for a piston engine in a chlorine-rich
>Exotic atmosphere (Flexos is listed as 'exotic' rather than 'insidious', so
>I'm inclined to think it isnt a horribly lethal chemical soup, just a
>reasonably lethal chemical soup).

1x H2 + 1x Cl2 = 2x HCl (just add water to get Hydrocloric acid)

1x CH4 + 4x Cl2 = 4x HCl + 1x CCl4

Tetrachloromethane, the solvent used in dry cleaning?

And if there is incomplete combustion, several possibilities, including:

1x C2H6 + 3x Cl2 = 3x HCl + 1x C2H3Cl3

The last of these has several forms, including 1,1,1-Trichloroethane
which is the solvent that seems to have been banned from all those
liquid paper products.

Considering also that chlorine is used to make bleach: it might
not last long but at least your uniform will be clean. ;-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 20:12:26 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Fighter stuff

Regarding missiles, why not try what the old Soviet Union did. Fire a wave
of missiles fitted with jammers ahead of the missiles with the warheads.
This should ensure that a greater number of live missiles reach optimal
firing distance.
Tony Farrell

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 05:52:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit

- --- SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:

> >> Make it s GIF instead.  Basically, JPG is better for lots of
> colors,
> >> curves,
> >> pictures of people, etc.  Where GIF is better for few colors,
> >> angular,
> >> simpler images.
> >
> >My bad, it is a gif.
> 
> I generated up a sector map for a wargame I was running (Fifth
> Millennium)
> - basically, it was the Solomani Rim. I tried a number of formats
> (TIF,
> GIF, JPG and BMP) and was lucky to get the map less than 1.5Mb in
> size. I
> think the smallest I managed was 800kb when I'd Stuffed it after
> generation.

In gif format, the full sector is 224k. This is, of course, with 
the trade routes partly done.
 
> >> Asking for permission is always a good idea.  But if you made the
> >> map yourself, not necessary.  If you use the wrods "Traveller" or
> >> "Gurps: Traveller", I recommend you include (R) symbol and note
> >> somewhere in the fine print that those are registered trademarks
> >> of Far Future Enterprises and SJG, respectively.
> 
> I checked with Marc Miller if it was okay to use the map. He
> responded that
> as long as it was not for profit, and I put the FFE disclaimer on
> trademark, it was okay. I suggest you contact him and check. He
> responded
> within a week, IIRC.

I will. Do you have his address handy?
 
> >I will see that they have the apropriate copyright notations and
> >that I get them up soon then.
> 
> BITS will happily mirror them for you, if you'd like.

Let me actually get a bit more of it done and then, yes certainly.
Thank you.

Terry
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 13:52:34 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: RE: Fighter stuff

At 20:12 01/06/1999 +0800, you wrote:
>Regarding missiles, why not try what the old Soviet Union did. Fire a wave
>of missiles fitted with jammers ahead of the missiles with the warheads.
>This should ensure that a greater number of live missiles reach optimal
>firing distance.
>Tony Farrell

You can.

You probably have to.

It's probably already in the calculations.

Unless your jammer missiles have decent manoeuvre, my point defence
can destroy them even further out than the real missiles.

So you might as well save the money you spent on the electronics,
in much the same way as KKMs save money by not having warheads.

The problem is one of cost. Beyond a certain point, it will be cheaper
to attack your enemy using a beam weapon which has effectively infinite
reloads rather than giving them target practice with some missiles.

There are plenty of good reasons to have missiles:

	to attack installations without manoeuvre,
	to finish off crippled ships,
	to attack ships that don't fit lasers "'cause there's no point"
	to attack J-1 civilian free traders.

The J-1 free traders are particularly vulnerable because they don't
have a lot of free power for weapons - especially when trying to
jump or evade.

Civilians in general are good targets, especially if you assume that
Famile Spofulam products violate Imperial Laws regulating the civilian
use of military weapons, or that the use of FS equiped freighters
on the Imperial borders could be considered an act of war. ;-)

Phil Kitching

- --

Should anyone argue that this encourages piracy,
the Laser Communications Division of the Postmark Design Bureau
would remind prospective purchasers that our Telstar XII and XIII
range of communications satellites is available to ease your
concerns.

- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Laser Communications Division.
 "For when your message just has to get through"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 09:27:51 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #689

In a message dated 6/1/99 2:06:22 AM US Eastern Standard Time, neo@total.net 
writes:

> I still don't have my copies (Loren?!), but let me guess which illo: the
>  one with the Giant Space Chicken tracks, right?

Nope.  "All work and no play. . ."

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 07:37:25 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Linux (was Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues)

>FWIW, I usually use Red Hat 4.x, and will probably end up going back to Red 
>Hat 6.0 Real Soon Now.  IMNSFBHO, a Linux system that *needs* 5 CDs to 
>*install* is a bit much, but it's got *everything* anybody could
concieveably 
>want...

Does it have an emulator that can run my games (DOS, Win3.1, Win95)? If not,
then it doesn't have everything *I* want. I want an OS that will run the 
software that I want to run... :)  (That's why I dumped OS/2 Warp a few
years ago despite it being a technically superior OS -- it couldn't run
some of my
game and multimedia software.)

ObTrav: In the 3I, is there one universal standard computer OS (like there
seems to be in Star Trek, Babylon 5, and other SF universes) or are there
competing OS from which people can pick and choose? 


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #690
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, June 1 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 691



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #690
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Buckyballs
Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
RE: Fighter stuff
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues
Computer tech in 3I
RE: Fighter stuff
First In Software?
Re: Computer tech in 3I
RE: Computer tech in 3I
Re: Fun things to do with a field phone 
RE: Fighter stuff
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Fighter stuff
RE: Fighter stuff
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Linux (was Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues) 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 08:05:44 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #690

> Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 00:15:51 -0400
> From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: Jump Masking, 3D Mapping, and Steller Frequency (oh, my!)
> 
> Even a circular orbit could be "unmasked" depending on the normal to the
> system's orbit.  This particularly applies to 3D where you might enter a
system
> from "below".  In fact, unless the star's 100D limit encompasses the
target
> planet, a "random" orbital normal will rarely mask a target planet.  

Already taken into account in the math that produced the tables in Far
Trader -- really, I did my homework. The gory details are at:

http://www.io.com/~thrash/masking.html

>Those jumps
> that do result in potential maskings (where jump vector is near the plane
of the
> ecliptic) can be charted and timed so as to avoid those pesky accidental
> maskings.

Your sense of scale is off somewhat: the 100D limit of a star is *huge*,
and it may take months for an average planet to move in and out of the
mask. 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 09:23:12 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

Joe Kirby wrote:

>  I thought the Det-lasers are a new addition to the rules (TNE on).
I've
>always IMTU had the CT missiles compared to the missiles of today. With

>very fast engines (10-20 G's) with superior handling and ECM/ECCM built
in.
>If a sidewinder missile could catch a fighter going mk1-2 and jigging
and
>zagging and hit, why couldn't a Hi-Tech missile in space do the same
thing?
>Besides a Det-missile waists a lot of it's warhead strength (at least
it
>would seem so) in converting it to a laser. So it would seem that if a
>missile were to deliver its warhead directly more damage would be done
for
>the same size warhead.
>  But then again, I am not a scientist or engineer. And the fact that
we
>don't have any real world example's of Det-Lasers to go by I could be
>mistaken.

Sidewinders do not have to worry about lightspeed interception.  Lasers
used as missle defence will destroy most missles before contact.  The
loss in efficiency in Det-laser warheads is more than made up by the
increase in hits.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 07:19:55 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Buckyballs

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
>
> Would there be anything that could hold anti matter with out a tordiral
> magnet?
> -Stephen

Yes, how they'll do it in the Imperium: Grav technology. It should be trivial,
once you have the technology for making grav compensation in floors, to make a
grav container for AM, possibly even a sphere turned inside out, where the
gravity potential is highest in the interior.

Just make really sure the vessel is holding a really good vacuum, and the
power doesn't fail.

In fact, it's likely that AM could be used to produce the best vacuums
possible. you could probably achieve extremely high vacuum efficiencies by
injecting small amounts of AM into the vessel. As it reacts with normal
matter, the vacuum gets better and better. At sufficient TL's this will be far
greater than what you could achieve with pumps alone.

What you would _do_ with such near perfect vacuums? I don't know.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 15:23:15 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

>>I have put the far trader costs & revenues into a spreadsheet and come up
>>with profit figures on large optimized ships* in excess of 100%. 

>I'm interested. Under what conditions ? What design of ship ? How many
>jumps a year ? Are you getting 'basic' rates, or 'tramp' rates ? Lotsa
>questions :)

I tried to be as standard as possible in my design, and as simple as possible in
delivery strategy, for example:


Ship Design: GTL 10, 20000 DT USL, 100 DR, 200 turrets (empty), Command Bridge,
Engineering, 40 Utility, 927 Manouver, 600 Jump, 4000 Fuel, 15 Fuel Processors,
45 Staterooms, Cargo 14632 (including turret spaces).

5 Bridge Crew, 39 Engineers, 1 Cargo master.

Emass 14006.7, LMass 87166.7, Cost MCr 2736.998, HP 420000, Hull Size
Modifier:+12
Accel 0.43 Gs (2.65 Gs empty), Jump 2, Air Speed  0


Delivery strategy & Economic Parameters:

Cargo transfer from Highport/Orbit to Highport/Orbit. 
95% loading.
70 Hours Manouvering per Jump (transfer from source orbit/highport to Jump point
& destination jump point to highport/orbit - assuming average jump masking)
60 hours in port (probably too long - I used 48 hours in the original posting)
28.3 Jumps per year (from above)

Revenue/Jump: 15290.42 KCr (14632 Cargo at Cr550 per Parsec minus Cr20 per jump 
lighterage fees.) Cr550 is around the mid-price quoted in Far trader for liners. 

Costs/Jump (KCr):
    28.67 Salaries (might be a bit high)
  4843.85 Mortgage
   400    Fuel (unrefined - not mentioned in Far Trader)
   193.75 Maintenance & Spares set-aside
   400.5  Berthing & Starport fee

  5866.78 Total Cost per Jump

Giving a profit of 160.6 percent, and a first year return on investment of
around 50%. 

If you don't use jump masking then this same design would be making 34 jumps
per year and 206 percent profit.

Design Notes:
 I have included standard software.
 Having empty turrets increases profitability.
 Optimal m-drive size comes out at around 0.4 Gees (trade off of cargo space v
more jumps per year). Fewer, heavier laden, jumps are probably cheaper on ground
support facilities too.
 You could stay less time in port, increasing profitability.
 You could make the crew share staterooms, increasing profitability.
 I have not included any sub-craft, e.g. a ships boat/lifeboat.
 I haven't including any costs for ground facilities, insurance, etc.
 A more complicated delivery strategy, could perhaps increase profitability.
 I used 100% loading in my acceleration figures, 95% would increase jumps per
year.

What else do you want to know?

Tell me what I have missed, and what you think are sensible parameters. I will
feed them into my spreadsheet and see what it does to profitability.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 22:16:57 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Fighter stuff

OK about jammer missiles, how about missiles that just toss out lots of nice
reflective material or chaff giving your point defence lasers lots of
targets to hit. Which are the real missiles?
Sure your point defence lasers may vaporise a lot, but one chaff load will
produce hundreds of targets for your lasers. Something similar is used by
drop troops to prevent ground based weapons getting the lot on the way down.
Also I suspect that this sort of load is relatively cheap.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 07:35:34 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

Robert Prior wrote:
> 

> A better solution might be to make the CD in dual-format.
>

Unfortunately, that means it has to be mastered on a Mac, as Toast is the only
CD program I'm aware of that does hybrid disk mastering. Bryan...if you're
still reading this tired thread, I now have access to a CD burner on my Mac,
so for the next version it can be done as a hybrid. Long filenames can be done
with the rockridge extensions, but then, the only program I know of that'll
make _those_ off hand is a Unix program called mkisofs <sigh> There are a
number of Linus programs for making CD's that serve as front-ends to that
program. 

Probably the easiest is to stick to cross platform file formats. (which do, by
now, include pict and PDF files...someone stuck with a 286 DOS platform will
have to upgrade somewhere along the line.)

Mac .sit and .bin compressed files live happily without resource forks, as do
almost all Mac data files.

Generally the only reason yould compress a Mac file anyway is to compress an
executable, they're of little interest to the PC-folk anyway.

As to obTrav and proliferation of operating systems...we just _had_ this
flame^h^h^h argum^h^h^h^h discussion under the guise of the annual TML Virus Debate.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 09:23:02 -0500 
From: "Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com>
Subject: Computer tech in 3I

>ObTrav: In the 3I, is there one universal standard computer OS (like there
>seems to be in Star Trek, Babylon 5, and other SF universes) or are there
>competing OS from which people can pick and choose? 

I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately.  Well, computer tech in
general, not just OS's.  

As large as the Imperium is, as long as it takes to get information from one
side to the other, imagine trying to get everyone to use the same OS?  Are
you willing to wait a year for your bug report to reach the programmers, and
another year for the patch to reach you?  Obviously, Open Source software is
going to be better here, when you can get someone local to fix it... but
consider what that does to the code base.  Open Source software works only
with the aid of *rapid* communication (i.e. the Internet)...  I can't see
doing Open Source software on any scale outside of a system... the best
communication rates are two-week turn-around.  

So I'm thinking about hardware...  hardware develops more slowly and doesn't
lend itself to Open Source development anyway.  How do you coordinate
hardware compatibility across several systems, let alone an entire Imperium?
Yeah, you could have an Imperium-created standard... but in the time it
takes them to *tell* some far system that they're working on a standard,
that far system has created and implemented its own.  It's even a problem
with communication protocols...  I expect that there's a compatibility
problem in just making computers talk to each other.  

And we're not even looking at newly-met races, who have been developing
their own technology independently all along.  

In wondering about data storage incompatibilities, I'm supposing that we
have something like electronic books, which would be a self-contained
computer and data storage device meant for carrying and displaying
information.  You can't count on every place you go having the ability to
interface with your Ship's Papers, for instance... so your Ship's Papers
include their own display device, making them independent of the receiving
end's technology.  

In the end, I'm really picturing a huge mishmash of protocols and interfaces
for machines to talk to each other.  If the video display card on your nav
unit loses its smoke, you probably can't just pick up a new card at any old
port... you're going to have to find one compatible with your computer
system, which may turn out to be nearly impossible out here in the Vargr
Extents 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 17:08:58 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: RE: Fighter stuff

At 22:16 01/06/1999 +0800, "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com> wrote:
>OK about jammer missiles, how about missiles that just toss out lots of nice
>reflective material or chaff giving your point defence lasers lots of
>targets to hit. Which are the real missiles?
>Sure your point defence lasers may vaporise a lot, but one chaff load will
>produce hundreds of targets for your lasers. Something similar is used by
>drop troops to prevent ground based weapons getting the lot on the way down.
>Also I suspect that this sort of load is relatively cheap.

The problem with this is that your chaff has no thrust, so I move my ship
away from your current flight path and as soon as your missile makes a
course correction, either I hit the IR signature or my doppler LIDAR
can ignore the chaff.

The difference is that the drop trops are on a ballistic trajectory, the
same as the chaff.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but all the missile designs that work
seem to be a) big and b) expensive. Not the sort of thing civilians carry
dozens of in one missile turret.

IIRC, there in a section in FF&S explaining why det lasers are used.
In summary: "there are no small cheap missiles anymore".

I can understand how you design a combustion laser missile, but I remain
to be convinced that you wouldn't be better putting the laser in a
turret on the ship. (Possibly still using chemical energy if you don't
have spare power.)

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 11:09:54 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: First In Software?

Greetings, All,

I just got my copy of GT: First In this weekend, and so far, it looks 
fantastic!  Great job!  I especially like the new Star System 
Detailing method, and can see how it might easily be translated into 
a non-GURPS (aka traditional) Traveller format.  Is anyone working on 
a software application to automate this process?  If so, will it be 
available for IBM PCs?  Thanks for your time.  I now return you to 
your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.

Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 09:12:14 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

Cravens, Carl wrote:
> 

> In the end, I'm really picturing a huge mishmash of protocols and interfaces
> for machines to talk to each other.  If the video display card on your nav
> unit loses its smoke, you probably can't just pick up a new card at any old
> port... you're going to have to find one compatible with your computer
> system, which may turn out to be nearly impossible out here in the Vargr
> Extents

This is definitely contradicted by canon. Throughout the Traveller
Literature there are references to the 'Standard Imperial Data Package';
plans on building everything from spanners to starships. Sort of a
real-life FF&S ;-)

Undoubtedly there are protocol definitions in there...if they're smart,
that's all they are "Here is how the parts are supposed to talk to each
other" This allows for a several TL-range of components...presumably one
could build a TL-8 video card to work in your TL-14 flight computer. It
may be slow, it may be monochrome, it may display all text in one font
and all uppercase, but it'lll work.

Outside of the Imperium things are a different matter.

To not speak of the Plot Device, which I will NOT say is called Virus,
this is one reason that that particular PD spread so rapidly throughout
the Imperium. When it hit Aslan, Vargr and Hiver territory, it slowed
considerably, as there they _do_ have a wide mishmash of incompatible
systems.

The Imperium is a hybrid Solomani/Vilani run commerce oriented political
system. Damn straight there's going to be a Standard Computing Platform.
Anything else would really affect the bottom line adversely. It probably
won't even arise from decree, just the old saying "No one ever got fired
for specifying Ling Standard Products!"

We can only hope and pray it is NOT called Windows 5679 :->



- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 11:23:37 -0500 
From: "Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com>
Subject: RE: Computer tech in 3I

>This is definitely contradicted by canon. Throughout the Traveller
>Literature there are references to the 'Standard Imperial Data Package';
>plans on building everything from spanners to starships. Sort of a
>real-life FF&S ;-)

Which would result in very slow technological development.  This wouldn't be
too bad if all innovation were done at the distribution point of the Data
Package, but it can't be.  It may take months for my new designs to reach
the Data Package coordination point, months for committees to approve the
inclusion of my design into the Data Package, and then months more to
distribute that Data Package to the rest of the Imperium.  In the meantime,
I've designed, built and am attempting to sell ships using my new designs...
but either nobody's buying because they're (rightly) afraid of not being
able to get parts, or they're later breaking down and unable to get parts
when on the other side of the Imperium.  

Canon or not, I find it very, very hard to believe that the Imperium can
maintain any kind of standardization without slowing innovation to a near
stand-still.  The Imperium is based on creating a stable economy, and
business in the technical world means getting your designs to market as
quickly as possible.  

>Undoubtedly there are protocol definitions in there...if they're smart,
>that's all they are "Here is how the parts are supposed to talk to each
>other" This allows for a several TL-range of components...presumably one
>could build a TL-8 video card to work in your TL-14 flight computer. It
>may be slow, it may be monochrome, it may display all text in one font
>and all uppercase, but it'lll work.

As long as you're building things in the Data Package or designing
everything to be compatible with the Data Package, you're okay.  But that
stifles innovation... the Data Package becomes like unto MS-DOS.  The entire
Imperium ends up being backward-compatible with MS-DOS 3.1 in order to keep
things running.  :)

>To not speak of the Plot Device, which I will NOT say is called Virus,
>this is one reason that that particular PD spread so rapidly throughout
>the Imperium. When it hit Aslan, Vargr and Hiver territory, it slowed
>considerably, as there they _do_ have a wide mishmash of incompatible
>systems.

And I find that Plot Device to be so utterly bogus that you couldn't get me
to play in that version of the Traveller universe if you paid me to do it. 

>The Imperium is a hybrid Solomani/Vilani run commerce oriented political
>system. Damn straight there's going to be a Standard Computing Platform.
>Anything else would really affect the bottom line adversely. It probably
>won't even arise from decree, just the old saying "No one ever got fired
>for specifying Ling Standard Products!"

How are you going to enforce it?  While the *government* (and therefore its
starports) may be standardized, I don't see how they're going to force every
computer in the Imperium to run the same OS. 

We can't even manage under five flavors of Linux in a world where
communication is, for all intents and purposes, instantaneous.  How are we
going to manage to make thousands of worlds that are months apart in
communication use the same operating system if using that OS doesn't fit
their needs?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 13:25:53 -0400
From: "Judith Carlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Fun things to do with a field phone 

In a message dated 99-05-31 22:40:28 EDT, you write:

<< Ever hear of psionics?


>>Hmm, what  MOS (is that even the right term, Military Ocupatinal >>Study?)
for
Psionic inerigator in the US Army?
>>- -Stephen
>>Sorry for all the mis-spellings

Sor-ry, I thought we were on topic. ;)

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 13:34:25 -0400
From: "Judith Carlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Fighter stuff

>  Oh. But when do PDL's become available? Is that something introduced in
MT or T4? >I know that I have allowed my players the opportunity to fire
>there lasers at Missiles in lew of firing at the other ship, but as I see
>it. Firing at a small object that is using active Evasion maneuvers would
>be extremely hard to hit.
>- --
>   Joe Kirby

I also seem to remember the use of gravic repulsers as a point defense
weapon against missiles. Was that TNE?  The G:T book says that gravity beam
weapons are not available,(thou I intend to use them IMTU as a Hi GTL12 or
GTL13 device as point defense weapons for Darrian and Imperial capital ships
in my upcoming campaign)
My question is how do these weapons stand in OTU?

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 12:55:17 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

Judith Carlino wrote:

<<snip>>
> 
> I also seem to remember the use of gravic repulsers as a point defense
> weapon against missiles. Was that TNE?  The G:T book says that gravity beam
> weapons are not available,(thou I intend to use them IMTU as a Hi GTL12 or
> GTL13 device as point defense weapons for Darrian and Imperial capital ships
> in my upcoming campaign)
> My question is how do these weapons stand in OTU?
> 
In HG2, 100 ton-repulsor bays become available at TL-10, and 50-ton bays
become available at TL-14.  In FF&S2, repulsors become available at
TL-16.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 12:58:04 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

At 09:23 AM 6/1/99 -0500, Charles wrote:
>
>Sidewinders do not have to worry about lightspeed interception.  Lasers
>used as missle defence will destroy most missles before contact.  The
>loss in efficiency in Det-laser warheads is more than made up by the
>increase in hits.
>
>

 I was wondering if anyone has every played the Computer game "Mantis
Experimental Fighter"? It was put out by MicroProse 1992 and was highly
underrated and didn't sell. Also the story line for it was kind a corny,
and overused. But, the fighting part of the game was IMHO the best that I'd
seen. For those that never seen it, part of the reason it didn't do too
well was because it was really hard to fly. Because it used real Newtonian
Physics. It wasn't flight Sim in space like Wing Commander and Tie fighter
(Although I liked them too). The reason I am bringing this up, is that in
that game it was really hard to use missiles effectively. But when you did,
it was well worth it. Now in that game you could shoot down in coming
missiles, but it was hard and you had to concentrate on doing just that. So
that means if you were pursuing a target or defending from a target, you
would spend valuable time and power on taking out a missile while the
target either gets away or gets a good lock with weapons fire. So using
missiles is like any other weapon, it takes time and practice to know when
to shoot them or when to hold them. Note that in this game also, the large
ships did have some kind of point defense system, but it didn't cover all
of the possible arcs, which to me is realistic because it would be near
impossible to put 360 deg spherical coverage on a ship.
  Also what I like about this game is that you can give good examples of
closure speeds. 
 Example: I'm trying to close with mother ship accelerating at 8G's Mother
ship dispatches interceptor. It is closing at 8G's also. When the
Interceptor is within my weapon ranges (which are long in this game) I have
only 1 to 1.5 seconds to shoot before he has passed me and is out of range
again and forget about using missiles then because before it could hit or
even get close to the target, it would run out of fuel. But against the
mother ship, missiles can close, but they tend to get blown up, unless you
can attack from a aft vector.

  Well there I go again rambling on. But back to Traveller. I try to use
examples from games and books that I have read to explain to my players
(non of them including me have a College degree) So I have to explain the
intrinsic's of space travel to the best my knowledge. So when they are
trying to shoot down a missile I tell them they are trying to hit a target
that moving so fast and erratic that when they shoot, by the time the beam
gets where they fired the missile isn't there. But if they could have a
fully automatic self targeting multi laser PD system (Aegis with lasers)
then it would be easier, but a Ragtag crew with little in the way of money
trying to keep there ship together can't afford that luxury.

 One of the players has nick named the ship "Barely Jump #3" after his
first two ships of a similar name "Barely Jump" and "Barely Jump #2"

 Well hope I didn't bore ya all.

- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 13:10:36 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: RE: Fighter stuff

At 01:34 PM 6/1/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>  Oh. But when do PDL's become available? Is that something introduced in
>MT or T4? >I know that I have allowed my players the opportunity to fire
>>there lasers at Missiles in lew of firing at the other ship, but as I see
>>it. Firing at a small object that is using active Evasion maneuvers would
>>be extremely hard to hit.
>>- --
>>   Joe Kirby
>
>I also seem to remember the use of gravic repulsers as a point defense
>weapon against missiles. Was that TNE?  The G:T book says that gravity beam
>weapons are not available,(thou I intend to use them IMTU as a Hi GTL12 or
>GTL13 device as point defense weapons for Darrian and Imperial capital ships
>in my upcoming campaign)
>My question is how do these weapons stand in OTU?
>
>Terry C
>
>All that is Gold does not glitter
>Not all who travel are lost

  The only place I have ever heard of them was in Star Trek (I think
Repulser beams) But hey, I have Traveller games I call "Side Treks" Where
they either get popped into (I.E. misjumped) into an alternate reality
where Shields, Warp drives, Tractor beams and Transporters are the norm. Of
course I use the "Historical" scenarios from StarFleet Battles as the basis
for the adventures. Usually I use the ones where the feds get destroyed or
its a major engagement where the PC's can play a small but important part
in the battle.
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 11:43:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

In mail you write:

>>Mac users need to be aware of the fact that their files need some 'cleaning
>>up' before they can be used properly on a PC.  Especially before
>>Toasting an ISO 9660 CD.  Strip all the resource forks and rename all the
>>files into 8.3 format.  Images should be saved as GIF, JPEG, BMP,
>>or something that anyone with a cheap DOS box can read.  Leave the fancy
>>TIFF, PDF and EPS files to the people who have spent a little
>>money on their system (or have a newer system).  Do not give a PICT file to
>>a Wintel user.  Though Mac is able to read PC files (except
>>executables if you don't have VPC or equivalent), the reverse is not true.

I have to comment on this. *All* the PC programs I know of for reading
MacPaint(?) type files *require* that the (128 byte?) resource fork be
present as a "header". They can't *recognize* the file if it is not
present. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 11:52:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

In mail you write:

>   I thought the Det-lasers are a new addition to the rules (TNE on). I've
> always IMTU had the CT missiles compared to the missiles of today. With
> very fast engines (10-20 G's) with superior handling and ECM/ECCM built in.
> If a sidewinder missile could catch a fighter going mk1-2 and jigging and
> zagging and hit, why couldn't a Hi-Tech missile in space do the same thing?
> Besides a Det-missile waists a lot of it's warhead strength (at least it
> would seem so) in converting it to a laser. So it would seem that if a
> missile were to deliver its warhead directly more damage would be done for
> the same size warhead.
>   But then again, I am not a scientist or engineer. And the fact that we
> don't have any real world example's of Det-Lasers to go by I could be
> mistaken.

The big problem is that in space you *don't* go "jigging and zagging"
the same way you do in an aircraft. You have to change course with
*engine* power, there are no "control surfaces".

Get a copy of Mayday, or at least a good description of the vector
movement system, and play out a few missile attacks. 

Also keep in mind that it's *hard* to build something as small as a
missile that has high accel *and* can maintain it for many turns.
That's why most missiles are rated in "g-turns". That is, a 20g-turn
missile can boost at 20 g for 1 turn, or 10 g for 2 turns, or 15 g for
1 turn and 5 g for the next, etc all the way down to 1 g for 20 turns.

The main reason for the "det laser" warheads is that they can score a
"hit" without getting close to the ship. Given any reasonable sort of
laser point defence system, a ship should be able to get 100% kill
rates on any missiles that get within *thousands* of kilometers. 

You see, to be able to hit the ship, the missiles have to be under
power (or very lucky). If they are under power, they stand out like a
sore thumb on sensors. If they are coastying, they can't dodge, and the
ship *can*. Plus the target solution for a coasting missile is easy.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 15:09:38 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Linux (was Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues) 

> 
> >FWIW, I usually use Red Hat 4.x, and will probably end up going back to Red 
> >Hat 6.0 Real Soon Now.  IMNSFBHO, a Linux system that *needs* 5 CDs to 
> >*install* is a bit much, but it's got *everything* anybody could
> concieveably 
> >want...
> 
> Does it have an emulator that can run my games (DOS, Win3.1, Win95)? If not,
> then it doesn't have everything *I* want. I want an OS that will run the 
> software that I want to run... :)  (That's why I dumped OS/2 Warp a few
> years ago despite it being a technically superior OS -- it couldn't run
> some of my
> game and multimedia software.)

DOSEMU runs just about anything that's DOS.  They're still bringing WINE up to 
Win95 specs, but DOSEMU can run Windows 3.1.  So it's *getting* there.  
Somebody came up with a full-tilt Win3.1 emulator called WABI, forget who, but 
it ran on Linux, and they stopped producing it.
 
There's a new emulator out called VMWare that'll run a *lot* of the Win95 
stuff, too.

> ObTrav: In the 3I, is there one universal standard computer OS (like there
> seems to be in Star Trek, Babylon 5, and other SF universes) or are there
> competing OS from which people can pick and choose? 

Probably one 'standard' OS that runs emulator software.  Ain't that the way 
the Vilani would do it?

Keven



- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #691
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, June 1 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 692



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Linux (was Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues) 
subscribe 
Re: Computer tech in 3I
Re: Computer tech in 3I
Traveller Software Game: The Zhodani Conspiracy
Re: Traveller Software Game: The Zhodani Conspiracy 
Attn: Chris Seagraves - I've got some gamers for you if you're i
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Fighter stuff 
re: Computer tech in the 3i
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
RE: Computer tech in 3I

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:27:23 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Linux (was Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues) 

> > ObTrav: In the 3I, is there one universal standard computer OS (like there
> > seems to be in Star Trek, Babylon 5, and other SF universes) or are there
> > competing OS from which people can pick and choose? 
> 
> Probably one 'standard' OS that runs emulator software.  Ain't that the way 
> the Vilani would do it?
> Keven

Arrrrggggg....

Vilani Inspector: "Aha. I see you are running your computer 
under Bilanidin Dagagulasha 5.6., then running an emulator for 
Daibei DOS 3.3, which in turn runs an emulator for Geonee 
NetSystem 8A, then running an Hortalez compiler for ZB++ language."

Terran User: "That's the basics, yes."

Vilani Inspector: "Good. I need the receipt of having paid the patent 
rights for B.D. 5.6, D.-DOS 3.3, and G.NS 3.3., plus the 
authorization for using both emulators, plus your receipt of 
paying the rights for an authorized copy of the ZB++ compiler. Oh, 
and also, the certificate of being allowed to write new programs. By 
the way, that library of subroutines that I see here...

Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 12:54:12 GMT
From: "Mark Fletcher" <m_fletcher2001@hotmail.com>
Subject: subscribe 

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 12:35:34 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

Cravens, Carl wrote:
> 
> >This is definitely contradicted by canon. Throughout the Traveller
> >Literature there are references to the 'Standard Imperial Data Package';
> >plans on building everything from spanners to starships. Sort of a
> >real-life FF&S ;-)
> 
> Which would result in very slow technological development. 

Exactly...how long does it take the Imperium to advance a TL?? 300-400
years.

> This wouldn't be
> too bad if all innovation were done at the distribution point of the Data
> Package, but it can't be.  It may take months for my new designs to reach
> the Data Package coordination point, months for committees to approve the
> inclusion of my design into the Data Package, and then months more to
> distribute that Data Package to the rest of the Imperium.  >

> In the meantime,
> I've designed, built and am attempting to sell ships using my new designs...
> but either nobody's buying because they're (rightly) afraid of not being
> able to get parts, or they're later breaking down and unable to get parts
> when on the other side of the Imperium.

Again, exactly. While this system _does_ stifle rapid tech advancement,
it does promote a stable Imperium.

> Canon or not, I find it very, very hard to believe that the Imperium can
> maintain any kind of standardization without slowing innovation to a near
> stand-still.  The Imperium is based on creating a stable economy, and
> business in the technical world means getting your designs to market as
> quickly as possible.

Business in the Technical world Here and Now, yes it does.


> >Undoubtedly there are protocol definitions in there...if they're smart,
> >that's all they are "Here is how the parts are supposed to talk to each
> >other" This allows for a several TL-range of components...presumably one
> >could build a TL-8 video card to work in your TL-14 flight computer. It
> >may be slow, it may be monochrome, it may display all text in one font
> >and all uppercase, but it'lll work.
> 
> As long as you're building things in the Data Package or designing
> everything to be compatible with the Data Package, you're okay.  But that
> stifles innovation... the Data Package becomes like unto MS-DOS.  The entire
> Imperium ends up being backward-compatible with MS-DOS 3.1 in order to keep
> things running.  :)

And the point is? In a system where it takes years for an 'upgrade' to
filter out far enough to be widely used, I think you are seriously
overestimating the value of technological innovation. 

Bluntly you're looking at it through eyes colored by a) instant
communications, b)near instant travel time  and c) that common habit of
low-tl cultures, thinking that we're the acme of innovation.

Take a long hard look at the advance of computer technology in just the
last 30 years...how much stuff is strewn along the roadside, obsolete,
and never used. When you can't get your innovations out, and in use
rapidly enough for them to become even mild standards, you have chaos,
and chaos is bad for business. While the IDP's do stifle innovation
somewhat (though properly designed they shouldn't do too much) if there
is no standardization nothing worls together. Each starship becomes a
one-off design pretty much. can you imagine how much of a hassle _that_
would be? Nowimagine that you're in the Spinward Marches. under your
model, this week SEVEN mutually incompativble computer architectures
ahve arrived in the marketplace from seven different sectors. All of
them are new all of them are advertised as this weeks bees knees.

You're the chief information systems analyst for Glisten Starships LLC,
and you have to decide which one is going to become the standard in your
new line of container freighter ships, a line you conservatively
estimate will be in production for a hundred fity to three hundred
years.

What do you specify: one of the 7 new things to come along _this_ week,
or the IDP, the standard you know is spread throughout the Imperium,
parts available, fixes appliable?

Even the PHB would have a hard time blowing that decision.
 
> >The Imperium is a hybrid Solomani/Vilani run commerce oriented political
> >system. Damn straight there's going to be a Standard Computing Platform.
> >Anything else would really affect the bottom line adversely. It probably
> >won't even arise from decree, just the old saying "No one ever got fired
> >for specifying Ling Standard Products!"
> 
> How are you going to enforce it?  While the *government* (and therefore its
> starports) may be standardized, I don't see how they're going to force every
> computer in the Imperium to run the same OS.

It isn't enforced, any more than (more or less) the Wintel standard is
'enforced' today, ie: by the marketplace. MicroSloth _does_ break the
rules (and, figuratively, a bunch of kneecaps) keeping alternate systems
out of the mainstream market, but on the whole, the reason that there
are so many wintel systems in the world is that, on the main, that's
pretty much what everybody else uses. The IDP will be the same way.

The big value of Linuix (and Open Systems) is that changes can be
implemented readily, by anyone. In a world of instantaneous
communication, those changes can be rapidly spread through the installed
base, but in the main, those changes can be applied to just about any
version.

The IDP is the ultimate Open Source. You have the entire source code to
everything from software packages to starship designs, with the rules on
how they interact. A lot of innovatiopn is possible there, but due to
the nature of the Imperium, it's spread and acceptance are going to be
glacially slow by our standards....

This doesn't mean that the Imperium is a stunted, backwards place...what
it means is that it's big...really, really mind-bogglingly big. 

The Imperial Data Package contains designs from TL-9 on up. There are
9126 worlds in the Imperium TL-9 or greater, with a combined population
of about 4 x10^13 people.

That's 40 TRILLION people. 

It takes a long time for advancments to move around that many worlds and
that many people.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 14:38:04 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

> From: "Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com>, under "Computer tech in 3I"
> 
> In the end, I'm really picturing a huge mishmash of protocols and interfaces
> for machines to talk to each other.  If the video display card on your nav
> unit loses its smoke, you probably can't just pick up a new card at any old
> port... you're going to have to find one compatible with your computer
> system, which may turn out to be nearly impossible out here in the Vargr
> Extents 

Which in turn conjures a lively picture of a Mos Eisley-style
encounter with the bug-like sentient who owns the local starship
junkyard, flapping in front of the PCs, bargaining for the only
compatible card on the planet.  Psionics don't work on his kind, but
perhaps the 10-year-old mechanic/robotic prodigy enslaved to the 
junklord might prove to be of assistance... 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 14:39:56 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Traveller Software Game: The Zhodani Conspiracy

Can anyone who's played the software game MT1 - The
Zhodani Conspiracy give me any hints on how to
generate characters who'll survive the opening
firefight? I've created some real 'tanks' but thanks
to the user interface I can't control them fast
enough to survive.

Yeah, yeah, I know it was released over a decade ago
but I just picked up a mint copy and wanted to try
it out. Are there any cheats somewhere on the web?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 15:47:05 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Software Game: The Zhodani Conspiracy 

> Can anyone who's played the software game MT1 - The
> Zhodani Conspiracy give me any hints on how to
> generate characters who'll survive the opening
> firefight? I've created some real 'tanks' but thanks
> to the user interface I can't control them fast
> enough to survive.
> 
> Yeah, yeah, I know it was released over a decade ago
> but I just picked up a mint copy and wanted to try
> it out. Are there any cheats somewhere on the web?

There was a cheat floating thru here awhile back.

Hmmmmmm.  I'm beginning to consider intalling DOSEMU here & trying it out 
again.  Been a few years since I played it.  What the hell, I have 2 hours a 
day that all I'm doing is sleeping...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:08:20 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Attn: Chris Seagraves - I've got some gamers for you if you're i

Pardon me, All,

I am seeking to contact Mr Chris (?) Seagraves of Austin, TX, whom I
spoke with a few months back after finding him on this list.  I have
been approached by a gamer who cannot make it to my Tuesday night
Traveller game, but would be interested in the Sunday afternoon game
you are running.  I would like to send him your way, but alas, I
have lost your email address.  Please contact me off-list, and I will
forward you his contact info.  (I also have another contact that
might be interested in your Champions game as well, if it's still
running.)

Please forgive me for the intrusion on the rest of the list.  Just 
trying to keep the dream alive, and aid a fellow Referee with some 
fresh blood.  Thank you for your understanding and support, and I now 
return you to your regularly scheduled thread already in progress...

Keep On Travellin',
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 12:10:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

In mail you write:

>   Oh. But when do PDL's become available? Is that something introduced in
> MT or T4? I know that I have allowed my players the opportunity to fire
> there lasers at Missiles in lew of firing at the other ship, but as I see
> it. Firing at a small object that is using active Evasion maneuvers would
> be extremely hard to hit.

The evasion manuevers are limited. First by the laws of physics (vector
movement). Second by the fact that the missile *has* to be spending
most of its time coming at you. It can't *spare* much deltaV for
dodging. 

And they'll be pretty useless. At 1500 km, the speed of light lag time
between what the sensors report and where the laser hits is .01
seconds. At 12g, a missile can change position by 6 *millimeters* in
that time. Which means the laser *will* hit.

At 15,000 km the lag time is .1 second. At this distance the missile
can move all of 60 cm in that much time at 12g. That *might* be enough
to generate a miss. But the laser can fire several shots in a second,
covering most of the likely positions.

Evasion isn't much help against lightspeed weaponry. Not up close. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 12:20:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

In mail you write:

> I also seem to remember the use of gravic repulsers as a point defense
> weapon against missiles. Was that TNE?  The G:T book says that gravity beam
> weapons are not available,(thou I intend to use them IMTU as a Hi GTL12 or
> GTL13 device as point defense weapons for Darrian and Imperial capital ships
> in my upcoming campaign)
> My question is how do these weapons stand in OTU?

To make a significant deflection, these things would have to induce
*huge* accelerations. So huge that boarding a ship that still had one
active would be impossible. Which would be a major change in
background. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 12:22:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

In mail you write:

> Regarding missiles, why not try what the old Soviet Union did. Fire a wave
> of missiles fitted with jammers ahead of the missiles with the warheads.
> This should ensure that a greater number of live missiles reach optimal
> firing distance.

That sort of works against radar at ranges of say, 100 miles to 20
miles. Working against lidar is much harder. And in most situations in
space, the active jammers merely act as target aquistion aids!

A missile against the ocean or the land is hard to spot on radar, and
not a lot easier on IR. A missile against the sky is easy to spot on
radar, and somewhat easy to spot on IR. A missile against *space*
stands out like a sore thumb on any sensor platform.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 12:26:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

In mail you write:

> OK about jammer missiles, how about missiles that just toss out lots of nice
> reflective material or chaff giving your point defence lasers lots of
> targets to hit. Which are the real missiles?

The ones that are accelerating. As I recall, it takes a "discriminator
circuit" that consists of something like one transistor and a couple of
resitors to reject non-accelerating targets. 

> Sure your point defence lasers may vaporise a lot, but one chaff load will
> produce hundreds of targets for your lasers. Something similar is used by
> drop troops to prevent ground based weapons getting the lot on the way down.
> Also I suspect that this sort of load is relatively cheap.

But in an atmospheric drop, the chaff *and* the capsules will be moving
at the same speed (terminal velocity for the capsules). 

In a missile attack, the chaff will *coast* at constant velocity, while
the real missiles continue accelerating towards the target. You obly
need to worry about *non*-accelerating targets when they get *really*
close. 

Also, any sort of "multi-spectral" sensor suite will be able to
distinguish chaff from real missiles. *Radar* returns may be the same,
but only at certain wavelengths. At other radar wavelengths, and with
IR and lidar, the chaff will look *very* different.

You might note that chaff is *never* used to protect missiles in the
real world. It's used to provide decoy targets *for* missiles. And in
attempts to overload radar.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 16:20:13 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff 

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Regarding missiles, why not try what the old Soviet Union did. Fire a wave
> > of missiles fitted with jammers ahead of the missiles with the warheads.
> > This should ensure that a greater number of live missiles reach optimal
> > firing distance.
> 
> That sort of works against radar at ranges of say, 100 miles to 20
> miles. Working against lidar is much harder. And in most situations in
> space, the active jammers merely act as target aquistion aids!

Neatly sucking in radar-guided antimissile missiles.
 
> A missile against the ocean or the land is hard to spot on radar, and
> not a lot easier on IR. A missile against the sky is easy to spot on
> radar, and somewhat easy to spot on IR. A missile against *space*
> stands out like a sore thumb on any sensor platform.

Which is why you'd want a flight of 'glue' missiles out in front to suck in the antimissile missiles.

Say whatever you want about the Soviets, but they weren't *dumb*, just technologically challanged.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 16:13:05 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Computer tech in the 3i

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The IDP is the ultimate Open Source. You have the entire source code to
everything from software packages to starship designs, with the rules on
how they interact. A lot of innovatiopn is possible there, but due to
the nature of the Imperium, it's spread and acceptance are going to be
glacially slow by our standards....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think the CT orginal starship construction rules reflected this kind of
system - you had these 26 types of drive, these seven types of computer,
this kind of hull plating, etc., and could put them together (with some
CAD tools) into a near-infinite variety of starships. While the starships
would be unique, and reflect local needs and tastes, there would be
an underlying commonality to the systems that would allow repair parts
and Engineering expertise to be usable between ship types.

Of course, you'd have the quirks - things that were designed a little
different from what the inherent design limitations of the IDP equipment
allow. The Sulieman scout's infamous air filtration system...the poor fire
arcs on the X-Boat tender's laser turrets, that kind of thing.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 12:01:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

In mail you write:

> One of the things against "normal" missles, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, is their
> (alleged by some) succeptibility (sp?) to  PDL (Point Defense Laser) fire.
> Up to you as to how it works in YTU, YMMV.

Just consider how well current Navy anti-missile measures work. And
they can only see the targets for the last few miles. If they could see
them coming for *thousands* of km, they'd do even better.

Add lasers, which don't have the range and aiming restrictions of
anti-missile missiles, and it gets *really* hard to account for the
*lack* of a 100% kill rate.

The exception would be if you were able to saturate the defenses. But
given the ranges, that gets *very* difficult. The missiles are going to
take a turn or more to get there. That's what, 15 min? 30 min? A
*million* missiles can be killed in 30 min by point defence with a kill
rate of less than 600 per second. Now consider that a *thousand*
missiles is going to be pushing things. 1000 missiles can be killed in
30 min at a kill rate of a bit more than one every other second. And
since there are likely a dozen or so lasers doing the killing, that
brings it down to something like a couple of shots per minute per laser.

See why we figure that missiles are dead meat?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 16:45:41 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

In a message dated 6/1/99 7:02:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
John.Buston@tesco.net writes:

<< 
 I have just checked with my accountant sister-in-law and she says that if I 
want
 to do it this way then I should use cost to date, including all direct costs
 (e.g. maintenance, spares, etc.) to calculate the return. No lets not do 
that...
 
 I think this means we are both right but at different times!
  >>

	And people have been giving ME all kinds of grief because I think 
that money is an important part of a campaign.


		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:59:51 -0500 
From: "Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com>
Subject: RE: Computer tech in 3I

>Again, exactly. While this system _does_ stifle rapid tech advancement,
>it does promote a stable Imperium.

But what *regulates* this growth?  What keeps pockets of innovation from
running wild with new designs?  

>> business in the technical world means getting your designs to market as
>> quickly as possible.

>Business in the Technical world Here and Now, yes it does.

And this implies that the Future, by virtue of simply not being Now, works
by different rules of economics?

>And the point is? In a system where it takes years for an 'upgrade' to
>filter out far enough to be widely used, I think you are seriously
>overestimating the value of technological innovation. 

My point is, *why the heck are you waiting years for an upgrade when you can
develop your own faster?* 

If someone developed a jump drive that somehow shortens travel time to one
day, and your competitor was using it... would you wait for it to filter
down through the IDP, or would you start buying it directly from the
manufacturer and using it as soon as possible?  

>Bluntly you're looking at it through eyes colored by a) instant
>communications, b)near instant travel time  and c) that common habit of
>low-tl cultures, thinking that we're the acme of innovation.

No, I'm looking at it quite plainly.

>Take a long hard look at the advance of computer technology in just the
>last 30 years...how much stuff is strewn along the roadside, obsolete,
>and never used. When you can't get your innovations out, and in use

Are you're saying that we should quit developing new stuff so that old stuff
doesn't be come obsolete so fast?

>rapidly enough for them to become even mild standards, you have chaos,
>and chaos is bad for business. While the IDP's do stifle innovation

If chaos is bad for business, why does Microsoft corrupt every "standard" to
its own uses, violating the standards and attempting to create their own?
(Because it works, unfortunately.) 

>somewhat (though properly designed they shouldn't do too much) if there
>is no standardization nothing worls together. Each starship becomes a
>one-off design pretty much. can you imagine how much of a hassle _that_
>would be? Nowimagine that you're in the Spinward Marches. under your

That's a gross exaggeration.  No matter how fast your innovation, you can't
reasonably move fast enough to make each ship a one-off design, or even
anything close to it.  

>model, this week SEVEN mutually incompativble computer architectures
>ahve arrived in the marketplace from seven different sectors. All of
>them are new all of them are advertised as this weeks bees knees.

>You're the chief information systems analyst for Glisten Starships LLC,
>and you have to decide which one is going to become the standard in your
>new line of container freighter ships, a line you conservatively
>estimate will be in production for a hundred fity to three hundred
>years.

Why are we planning on producing the same model for over a hundred years?
Why won't my competitor have something better well within twenty?  Why won't
*I* have something better in twenty?  Are we so far out there on the curve
that there's nothing new to invent?  Evidence of the Ancients implies that
we have much to learn. 

>What do you specify: one of the 7 new things to come along _this_ week,
>or the IDP, the standard you know is spread throughout the Imperium,
>parts available, fixes appliable?

Depends on the cost/risk of implementing something new vs its benefits.
What kind of an edge am I going to get by using one of these new things?
How much benefit is there compared to going with the tried and true IDP
systems?  Show me how my company can use your new system to get an edge over
my competitor and that the risk is acceptable, and I'll buy your system in a
heartbeat. 

I just did that very thing in my own company.  I bought a Windows NT product
for a HP-UX-only shop, and am putting NT workstations on certain people's
desktop, despite its incompatibility with all of the other workstations,
because that one product is far superior to anything we've been able to find
on HP-UX.  It's costing us in hardware/software purchase, retraining, and
time integrating datasets (because we have to take data from the HP's to the
NT's and back to the HP's smoothly).  But the drawbacks were outweighed by
cost.  

Your argument implies that the cost of innovation is always outweighed by
the stability of standardization.  This can't always be true. 

>It isn't enforced, any more than (more or less) the Wintel standard is
>'enforced' today, ie: by the marketplace. MicroSloth _does_ break the

And the guy in the cube next to me is using a computer that's not compatible
with mine.  And in my own cube, I have two screens... one is a computer, the
other is a smart-terminal that connects to a server that's incompatible with
the computer in my cube.  And that server is incompatible with the server
sitting right next to it in the lab, and incompatible with the server next
to it, which is incompatible with the next server over.  All in all, I'm
running five different, *incompatible* servers sitting in the same room.
And that's in the same *room*, in the same building, on the same continent,
on the same planet, in the same system, where communication is
instantaneous.   While they'll all talk nice to each other, I need different
parts from different vendors to upgrade or repair any of them. 

Now how do you imagine that spreading out across the galaxy, with
communication delays of 
weeks and months, is going to *improve* this problem?

>rules (and, figuratively, a bunch of kneecaps) keeping alternate systems
>out of the mainstream market, but on the whole, the reason that there
>are so many wintel systems in the world is that, on the main, that's
>pretty much what everybody else uses. The IDP will be the same way.

That's pretty much what every *home* user and every office-work machine
uses. Wander away from games, spreadsheets and wordprocessors, and you
quickly get into variously incompatible VMS, Unix, OS/400, etc. machines.  

>The big value of Linuix (and Open Systems) is that changes can be
>implemented readily, by anyone. In a world of instantaneous
>communication, those changes can be rapidly spread through the installed
>base, but in the main, those changes can be applied to just about any
>version.

Which is part of my point.  In a single system, you can still have this kind
of innovation going on.  I'm starting to picture relative run-away
technology in individual systems, while the starship network becomes more
and more dated because it can't afford to move away from standardization.
(There's still an incredible amount of stuff to do with technology that
won't affect or be affected by an interstellar society.)

>The IDP is the ultimate Open Source. You have the entire source code to
>everything from software packages to starship designs, with the rules on
>how they interact. A lot of innovatiopn is possible there, but due to
>the nature of the Imperium, it's spread and acceptance are going to be
>glacially slow by our standards....

Problem is, when you've got the source *right here*, are you going to wait
*years* to get changes that you can implement yourself in only weeks?  I see
this leading to my patch, your patch, his patch, her patch, everywhere a
patch-patch.  We'd try to keep things compatible, of course... but at some
point, in some field, there have got to be a place where abandoning some
compatibility is going to get some benefit that's worth it.  And the moment
that happens, big business will latch onto it and put it in the field.  If
the field is interstellar, maybe it'll mean putting spare parts on the ship,
or going out of your way to push a parts distribution through the system to
support your ships, over-engineering the part so failure is very unlikely,
or just living with being stranded if it comes to that... but if the
*benefit* is large enough, it can outweigh the cost.  

>This doesn't mean that the Imperium is a stunted, backwards place...what
>it means is that it's big...really, really mind-bogglingly big. 

Yep... mind-bogglingly big.  Which is why I find it highly unlikely that
something that *big* can have something that *standard* across the whole of
it. 

>The Imperial Data Package contains designs from TL-9 on up. There are
>9126 worlds in the Imperium TL-9 or greater, with a combined population
>of about 4 x10^13 people.

>That's 40 TRILLION people. 

40 TRILLION people... many of which are capable of making improvements to
the system on their own.  What keeps them from doing so?  What happens when
I invent some new technology here, set up a standard for it, and start
selling it to neighboring systems... I'm not incompatible, because it's
totally new and I'm the only place to get it.  But at the same time, someone
across the way has created the same technology, except he's using entirely
different protocols.  By the time our designs make it to the IDP committees
(I can' t use that word without hearing it in Queen Amidala's voice) we've
got established customer bases and somebody has to sort the mess out.  Or
not.  If our two realms never (or rarely) meet, it might not even be a
problem.  

>It takes a long time for advancments to move around that many worlds and
>that many people.

But you seem to imply that advancements are only going to go to that many
worlds through the IDP, and that nobody is going to use it until it's in the
IDP.  The advancements are going to *start* in all of those worlds.  Many of
them simultaneously, many of them at odds with what's already in the IDP,
but still beneficial or commercially viable.  Companies aren't going to want
to wait months or even years for a design to get into the IDP when they're
ready to put units in the field right now. 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #692
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, June 1 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 693



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Rocket Bike
Re: Fun things to do with a field phone
Re: Computer tech in 3I
Re: Computer tech in 3I
Re: Rocket Bike
RE: Computer tech in 3I
Re: Spinward Marches Map
Re: Traveller Software Game: The Zhodani Conspiracy
Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
RE: Computer tech in 3I
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 13:13:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Rocket Bike

In mail you write:

> 1x H2 + 1x Cl2 = 2x HCl (just add water to get Hydrocloric acid)
>
> 1x CH4 + 4x Cl2 = 4x HCl + 1x CCl4
>
> Tetrachloromethane, the solvent used in dry cleaning?
>
> And if there is incomplete combustion, several possibilities, including:
>
> 1x C2H6 + 3x Cl2 = 3x HCl + 1x C2H3Cl3
>
> The last of these has several forms, including 1,1,1-Trichloroethane
> which is the solvent that seems to have been banned from all those
> liquid paper products.

Getting carbon to "burn" in a chlorine atmosphere is *hard*.
Hydrocarbons generally burn to HCl and free carbon (aka "soot").

I've actually done the experiment where you burn a candle in chlorine,
and read about buring methane in it (ie a specially rigged Bunsen
burner in a tank of chlorine). Both give off copious amounts of soot. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 13:18:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fun things to do with a field phone

In mail you write:

>>Other than drugs how do you get info out of them?
>>- -Stephen
>
> Ever hear of psionics?
>
>
> Terry C

This is a *lovely* juxtapostion for any Miles Vorkosigan fans. 

Terry, would your full name happen to be "Terrence"? 

"Terrence C" :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 13:23:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

In mail you write:

>>ObTrav: In the 3I, is there one universal standard computer OS (like there
>>seems to be in Star Trek, Babylon 5, and other SF universes) or are there
>>competing OS from which people can pick and choose? 
>
> I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately.  Well, computer tech in
> general, not just OS's.  
>
> As large as the Imperium is, as long as it takes to get information from one
> side to the other, imagine trying to get everyone to use the same OS?  Are
> you willing to wait a year for your bug report to reach the programmers, and
> another year for the patch to reach you?  Obviously, Open Source software is
> going to be better here, when you can get someone local to fix it... but
> consider what that does to the code base.  Open Source software works only
> with the aid of *rapid* communication (i.e. the Internet)...  I can't see
> doing Open Source software on any scale outside of a system... the best
> communication rates are two-week turn-around.  

Actually, Open Source works fine either way. It's just that the "base"
software won't be uniform. Different patches for the same bug will
radiate out from the point where they are discovered. If one is
superior, it'll *eventually* replace the other. If not, they may
co-exist for a *long* time, whith some areas using one, others using
the other. 

Luckily, the rate of change for both hardware and software is a lot
slower. So perhaps once every 10 years, a conference goes thru all the
patches that are *more* than 10 years old and haven't been "reconciled"
and announces which one will be standard, with a 10 year lead time (ie
it's to be implemented before the *next* conference). 

> So I'm thinking about hardware...  hardware develops more slowly and doesn't
> lend itself to Open Source development anyway.  How do you coordinate
> hardware compatibility across several systems, let alone an entire Imperium?
> Yeah, you could have an Imperium-created standard... but in the time it
> takes them to *tell* some far system that they're working on a standard,
> that far system has created and implemented its own.  It's even a problem
> with communication protocols...  I expect that there's a compatibility
> problem in just making computers talk to each other.  

Actually, I think the key *is* communication protocols. Define those,
and have all the "parts" be smart, and things actually get easier.

> And we're not even looking at newly-met races, who have been developing
> their own technology independently all along.  

Sure, they'll be a major incompatibility. But they'll start adopting
Imperial tech, and if they've got any really neat tricks, those will
eventually migrate into Imperial tech.

> In wondering about data storage incompatibilities, I'm supposing that we
> have something like electronic books, which would be a self-contained
> computer and data storage device meant for carrying and displaying
> information.  You can't count on every place you go having the ability to
> interface with your Ship's Papers, for instance... so your Ship's Papers
> include their own display device, making them independent of the receiving
> end's technology.  

Hardcopy will still exist for a lot of stuff, especially things like
ship's papers. 

Storage? Even now we have essentially two kinds. Text and binary. Text
is likely to use something like Unicode (a 32-bit character set that
holds all know characters sets with lots of room left over) and some
descendant of html. 

The various binary formats will still be as arbitrary as ever. Though
one can hope that they'll have had time to decide which of many formats
is "best" for a given job. That'd mean that there might only be JPEG
and PNG for graphics storage (one "lossy", one "exact") instead of BMP,
GIF, RLE, JPEG, PNG, etc. And so on for other file types.

> In the end, I'm really picturing a huge mishmash of protocols and interfaces
> for machines to talk to each other.  If the video display card on your nav
> unit loses its smoke, you probably can't just pick up a new card at any old
> port... you're going to have to find one compatible with your computer
> system, which may turn out to be nearly impossible out here in the Vargr
> Extents 

That's where uniform protocols come in. I doubt that there will *be*
such a thing as a "video card". Instead, the display will be smart
enough to use a common protocol to talk to whatever it is connected to.
So in essence, it's being told what to display where in a "high level"
exchange. 

So you connect a "display" to the network, or directly to a "device"
and they find a common protocol and start exchanging data. The display
sends its capabilities, and the sensor or computer sends the "commands"
to generate the proper image. 

You may not *worry* about sub-assemblies of the "black boxes". If
something goes wrong, you pull the display and plug in a spare. It has
a different ID, so the boxes that where communicating with the old one,
renegotiate with the new one, and away you go.

I figure this is pretty much inevitable. And with properly designed
protocols, several different "generations" of equipment can work
together. It also makes life simpler for the players and the ref. 

At worst, you might have to stick a "protocol converter" between the
replacement display and the rest of the system. Much like the AppleTalk
to Ethernet converter for hooking my Mac into my PC network.

The PCs see an ethernet connection. The Mac sees an Appletalk
connection. Everbody is happy.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 13:48:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

In mail you write:

>>This is definitely contradicted by canon. Throughout the Traveller
>>Literature there are references to the 'Standard Imperial Data Package';
>>plans on building everything from spanners to starships. Sort of a
>>real-life FF&S ;-)
>
> Which would result in very slow technological development.  This wouldn't be
> too bad if all innovation were done at the distribution point of the Data
> Package, but it can't be.  It may take months for my new designs to reach
> the Data Package coordination point, months for committees to approve the
> inclusion of my design into the Data Package, and then months more to
> distribute that Data Package to the rest of the Imperium.  In the meantime,
> I've designed, built and am attempting to sell ships using my new designs...
> but either nobody's buying because they're (rightly) afraid of not being
> able to get parts, or they're later breaking down and unable to get parts
> when on the other side of the Imperium.  
>
> Canon or not, I find it very, very hard to believe that the Imperium can
> maintain any kind of standardization without slowing innovation to a near
> stand-still.  The Imperium is based on creating a stable economy, and
> business in the technical world means getting your designs to market as
> quickly as possible.  

First off, you'll find that all the published materials *do* show
technological progress as being very slow.

And second, once technologies *mature*, you don't *get* new designs all
that often. Look at the auto industry. The differences from one model
to another are *not* technological, they are mostly artistic. The
remaining differences tend to be a matter of which of the several
mutually exclusive "properties" of a car were picked as most important.
Size, mileage, capacity, cost, etc. 

> As long as you're building things in the Data Package or designing
> everything to be compatible with the Data Package, you're okay.  But that
> stifles innovation... the Data Package becomes like unto MS-DOS.  The entire
> Imperium ends up being backward-compatible with MS-DOS 3.1 in order to keep
> things running.  :)

True to some extent. And necessary to some extent. Just remember, this
is being done with *mature* technologies. Which is something current
computer tech *isn't*.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 12:37:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Rocket Bike

In mail you write:

>>In mail you write:
>>
>>It's much simpler to just *carry* oxygen for a "normal" engine.
>>Hyper-golic fuels are *too* energetic. 
>
> What I want is something that is possible at TL6, cheap and insanely
> dangerous.

Since TL6 is 1940 to 1969 (according to The Traveller Book), then
carrying your own oxygen *is* possible. Heck, it's possible at 1900
tech levels.

Insanely dangerous? Well, if you insist. Oxygen tanks (LOX *or*
pressurized) are dangerous. On a vehicle they are more so. Just
consider the fun if an oxygen line springs a leak. If there's a spark,
it makes like a blowtorch. And in an oxygen atmosphere the metal in the
engine will burn. :-)

Peroxide engines are even more fun, because a *lot* of randome
contaminants will catalyze the stuff. So the result of a speck of the
wrong thing getting into the peroxide system is "boom".

> One of my theories is that the Flexii have a workable deposit of nitrogen
> tetraoxide somewhere near their sealed city - possibly in a volcanically
> active area.

Nope. It's too chemically active to be found naturally. Ditto for hydrazine.

>>Also, for a ground vehicle, hydrogen peroxide might be a better choice.
>>It's a good monopropellant. Pass it over any of a number of catalysts
>>and you get a mix of superheated steam and free oxygen. 
>>
>>You either use the steam straight to run pistons or even a turbine, or
>>you use the H2O2 as an oxidizer and bring in the exotic atmosphere to
>>work with it. 
>
> I'm figuring piston ignition. It isnt an actual 'rocket bike', although the
> Tourist Model might be.

Peroxide is a good choice then. The other combo is too explosive for a
piston engine. You could either do the "smart" thing and spray the
peroxide thru a catalyst grid in a "steam generator" chamber and then
pipe the steam/oxygen mix the results to the pistons, or you could get
really crazy and spray peroxide thru a catalyst grid directly into the
pistons. I don't recommend that technique simply because it's *too* apt
to screw up, and I can't see *how* you'd throttle it.

BTW, with the seperate steam generator, if the piping runs are kept
short you can "supercharge" the engine by spraying *fuel* into the
piston, where it can react with the oxygen in the steam/oxygen mix.
Sort of like a nitrous oxide boost, but backwards.

>>Almost all "exotic" atmospheres will be either oxidizing or reducing.
>>In an oxidizing atmosphere, you use the local air and supply fuel. In a
>>reducing atmosphere, the air is "fuel" and you supply the oxidizer. 
>
> I'm not a chemist. Is chlorine oxidizing or reducing ?

Oxidizing. Ditto for flourine. 

>>Anyway, if the local atmosphere is oxidizing *or* reducing, engines
>>that use the local atmosphere are both possible, and simpler than
>>self-contained units.
>
> OK. Give me a reaction that works for a piston engine in a chlorine-rich
> Exotic atmosphere (Flexos is listed as 'exotic' rather than 'insidious', so
> I'm inclined to think it isnt a horribly lethal chemical soup, just a
> reasonably lethal chemical soup).

Hydrogen will burn in chlorine quite well. You get HCl (hydrochloric
acid). So will simple hydrocarbons like methane. Except that the carbon
*won't* burn, so the flames are *very* sooty. Not recommended for an
engine (can you say "instant carbon deposits"?).

CH4 + 2 Cl2 -> C + 4 HCl

<see simple experiment at the bottom of the message>

Water is not terribly stable in a chlorine atmosphere. It'll absorb
chlorine, becoming "chlorine water" which is *just* as corrosive as
aqua regia. In other words, it'll corrode things like gold and
platinum! Anti-corrosion measures will be important. Though the
chloride "rust" that forms on exposed metal will generally be ok, since
it'll get exposed to HCl most of the time, not to water.

Plastic and rubber type materials may degrade more easily, but I expect
that most will be fluorocarbon based (ie teflon related) and thus safe
from chlorine. 

Geologically, the planet will be *weird*, because to have more chlorine
than oxygen will require some really unlikely things during its
formation. This will likely be *why* people are there. The high
abundance of chloride minerals makes refining ore much simpler in some
ways. And the rocks will tend to be very colorful, as many chlorides
are a lot more colorful than their oxide counterparts.

There should still be a fair amount of oxide rocks, but they should be
in the minority. 

And you'll find that the air is *very* hard to see thru for any great
distance. Chlorine is *not* terribly transparent. More of a thin,
yellow-green fog. 

If there's native life, it'll find oxygen to be as dangerous as we find
fluorine. And water will be a hazardous acid to them. They'll also find
our lighting to be "strange". 
- -----------
Simple home experiment. Take some sodium bisulfite ("SaniFlush " brand
toilet cleaner) and some bleach. Combine a small amount in the bottom
of a widemouth jar (say a gallon pickle jar). The jar will fill with
chlorine, easily visible as a greenish yellow gas. Do this outdoors on
a calm day, *not* indoors.

Take a birthday candle and rig a sort of wire holder so you can lower
it into the jar while lit. Light it and lower it into the chlorine.
It'll keep burning, but the flame will become orange or even red, and
will give off *huge* amounts of soot. Hydrocarbons burning in chlorine.

When you are done, set the jar on a solid surface and gently spray
water at it from a distance. The water will help absorb the chlorine.
When there's no more trace of it, fill the jar and dump it down the
*toilet* not the sink. And flush several times. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 16:23:33 -0500 
From: "Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com>
Subject: RE: Computer tech in 3I

>First off, you'll find that all the published materials *do* show
>technological progress as being very slow.

Unfortunately, what's in the published material isn't necessarily the way
things *should* work.  (i.e. you can't point to the fictional work as a
first principle.) 

Now there is a lot to be said for following the published material, even if
it's not technically accurate.  I'm just exploring the issues of accuracy. 

>And second, once technologies *mature*, you don't *get* new designs all
>that often. Look at the auto industry. The differences from one model
>to another are *not* technological, they are mostly artistic. The
>remaining differences tend to be a matter of which of the several
>mutually exclusive "properties" of a car were picked as most important.
>Size, mileage, capacity, cost, etc. 

Oh?  Fuel-injection.  Lighter aluminum blocks.  Computer-control, monitoring
and diagnostics of the engine and transmission.  Better handling of
emissions.  More efficient stream-lining.  Air bags.  Side air-bags.
Anti-lock brakes.  The uni-body design.  Body designs created to direct
impact energy away from occupants.  Tire tread with better handling
capabilities.  Suspensions with better handling capabilities.  Paint that
doesn't fade as readily.  Rigid plastic body panels.  

Cars have come a long way in just a few short years... and I'm not even a
car person.  I'm sure someone more familiar with them could come up with
even more technological innovations that we all take for granted. 

And garages have had to improve with them... mostly in the area of computer
diagnostics and training.  (But training is just as important as anything
else in our information-dissemination problem... even if they've got the
parts and the tools, if they don't know how to work on it, you're outta
luck. :) 

>True to some extent. And necessary to some extent. Just remember, this
>is being done with *mature* technologies. Which is something current
>computer tech *isn't*.

The automobile is a mature technology, but look at how much it's advanced in
the last thirty years. 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 14:26:40 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Spinward Marches Map

> From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>

> You know, I don't want to be overly petty, but have you considered
> adding hex numbers?

I think you should add hex numbers.  
 
> Steve Daniels wrote:

> > 3) Opinions:  Political borders or not?

I think you should add these too.  

What is the date of your map?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 17:49:51 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Software Game: The Zhodani Conspiracy

"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:
> 
> Can anyone who's played the software game MT1 - The
> Zhodani Conspiracy give me any hints on how to
> generate characters who'll survive the opening
> firefight? I've created some real 'tanks' but thanks
> to the user interface I can't control them fast
> enough to survive.
> 
> Yeah, yeah, I know it was released over a decade ago
> but I just picked up a mint copy and wanted to try
> it out. Are there any cheats somewhere on the web?

Easy.  You have to puase the game and set all characters to a leader. 
Then grab the leader and have him run like hell from the firefight.  You
can't win it.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:43:51 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

> Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 15:23:15 +0100
> From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
> Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
> 
> I tried to be as standard as possible in my design, and as simple as
possible in
> delivery strategy, for example:
> 
> Ship Design: GTL 10, 20000 DT USL, 100 DR, 200 turrets (empty), Command
Bridge,
> Engineering, 40 Utility, 927 Manouver, 600 Jump, 4000 Fuel, 15 Fuel
Processors,
> 45 Staterooms, Cargo 14632 (including turret spaces).

Requires a sickbay, but that's minor stuff.

> Accel 0.43 Gs (2.65 Gs empty), Jump 2, Air Speed  0
> 95% loading.
> 70 Hours Manouvering per Jump (transfer from source orbit/highport to
Jump point
> & destination jump point to highport/orbit - assuming average jump
masking)

Jump masking *adds* 30.6 hours per jump to the average trip, at each end.
You should use 110 hours = ((30.6 + 5.5) hours / sqrt(0.43)) * 2. There's a
reason for using 1g freighters...

> 60 hours in port (probably too long - I used 48 hours in the original
posting)

Too short. "Average" cargo loads and unloads at 264 dtons/hour (a weighted
average by type -- I should have mentioned it specifically in FT, but
forgot). Breakbulk cargo (the only kind that will fit in turrets) loads and
unloads at 30 dtons per hour. Assuming 600 dtons in turrets, that's
(14032/264 + 600/30) * 0.95 * 2  = 139.0 hours to unload and load again.

> 28.3 Jumps per year (from above)

20.1 jumps per year.

> Revenue/Jump: 15290.42 KCr (14632 Cargo at Cr550 per Parsec minus Cr20
per jump 
> lighterage fees.) Cr550 is around the mid-price quoted in Far trader for
liners. 

You assumed 95% loading: KCr15,012.4

> 
> Costs/Jump (KCr):

Costs break out to fixed (annual) costs and variable (per-jump costs):

Fixed:

>     28.67 Salaries (might be a bit high)

Yes, KCr 811/year is too high. Crew members receive a minimum of Cr800 per
month (p. GT107); the average is more like Cr1,200 per month. Salaries are
at least KCr432 per year, and KCr648 is more realistic.

>   4843.85 Mortgage

Call it KCr136,849.9 per year.

>    193.75 Maintenance & Spares set-aside

KCr5,473.996 per year.

Total fixed costs: KCr142,971.896 per year, or KCr7,113.0 per jump (at 20.1
jumps per year).

Variable:

>    400    Fuel (unrefined - not mentioned in Far Trader)

Assuming unrefined fuel is available for purchase; refueling operations
will require 40.7 hours, which is within the port time. If unrefined fuel
has to be skimmed, time in-system increases enormously. FT included refined
fuel in its freight rate calculations.

>    400.5  Berthing & Starport fee

This assumes that the freight is carried for some other owner, so wharfage
and handling tariffs do not apply. This is okay for a pure shipping
company, but should be corrected for megacorporate operations. The freight
rates in FT were set with both wharfage and freight handling included.

Total Variable: KCr800.5 per jump

>   5866.78 Total Cost per Jump

KCr7,913.5 per jump.

> Giving a profit of 160.6 percent, and a first year return on investment
of
> around 50%. 

KCr7,098.9 per jump, or 89.7% profit. Annual profit: KCr142,687.9, or about
26% first year ROI.

If, on the other hand, your loading is only 65% (typical in the real
world), your profit goes down to KCr3,413.0 per jump (23.6 jumps per year).
This is a first year ROI of 15%.

You should probably consider amortizing losses in your figures. The
disaster rate in GT (p. 121) is currently far too high: even assuming an
expert crew (Skill-15), one jump in 1,400 results in disaster (complete
destruction of the ship, not just misjump). A proposed revision for the 2d
printing would reduce this to 14,000. Even so, at 20.1 jumps that's a 0.15%
chance of total loss per year. The replacement cost is KCr205.3 per jump;
under the current rules it would be ten times higher.

This does not address losses from other causes: conventional accident,
piracy, tradewar, etc. The contemporary loss rate for surface shipping is
2-3% of all hulls per year. 

> If you don't use jump masking then this same design would be making 34
jumps
> per year and 206 percent profit.

If you don't use jump masking, you should recalibrate the freight rates
accordingly: they were set with jump masking as a factor.

> Design Notes:
>  Having empty turrets increases profitability.

At the expense of increased loading time.

>  Optimal m-drive size comes out at around 0.4 Gees (trade off of cargo
space v
> more jumps per year). Fewer, heavier laden, jumps are probably cheaper on
ground
> support facilities too.

I'm not sure about this -- 1g came out close enough to optimal when I was
doing the analysis.

>  You could stay less time in port, increasing profitability.

At the cost of handling premiums, which will have to be paid by the ship
owner no matter who owns the cargo.

>  You could make the crew share staterooms, increasing profitability.

I assumed this would be the case.

>  I have not included any sub-craft, e.g. a ships boat/lifeboat.

All the example starships in FT have sufficient seats in small craft for
all crew and passengers. As a GM, I would consider a ship that didn't meet
that standard uninsurable, but YMMV.

>  I haven't including any costs for ground facilities, insurance, etc.

Neither did we.

>  A more complicated delivery strategy, could perhaps increase
profitability.

That's what LASH is all about, and even then it's a close-run game.


Appendix: Freight handling rates

TYPE			DTON/HR	% BY VOLUME	
Breakbulk		30		30%
RO/RO			120		10%
Container		180		10%
Dry Bulk		360		25%
Liquid Bulk		540		25%

Average			264

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 16:56:02 -0500 
From: "Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com>
Subject: RE: Computer tech in 3I

>Actually, Open Source works fine either way. It's just that the "base"
>software won't be uniform. Different patches for the same bug will
>radiate out from the point where they are discovered. If one is

You and I live on opposite sides of the Imperium.  We both build jump drives
for a living.  Simultaneously, both of us develop some new technology that
makes jumping inside the 100 planetary diameter limit safer... but we
implement it in rather different ways, and start selling our newly-modified
drives.  A year later, one of my competitors a few parsecs away
reverse-engineers my modification, sees how it can be improved ten-fold, and
starts selling an even better design based on mine.  Meanwhile, your design
has almost finished the process of entering the IDP and will become an
"official" design.  Meanwhile, starbases clustered around my shipyard have
crew trained to repair my drives, and even my competitor's drives... but not
yours.  And the same on your end... as long as I stay within ten parsecs of
your general distribution hub, I can count on someone knowing how to fix my
ship, but outside of that it becomes iffy.

Where does it go from here?  No central committee can consolidate these
things and eliminate the differences in the existing drives, and those
drives have a fair customer base after ten years. 

Is it possible to keep this kind of thing from happening to start with?  I
don't think so.  

The problem is even worse with newly-contacted races... how long does it
take to "integrate" them technologically.  How long do we have to put up
with them being "incompatible"?  

I have a feeling that travelling citizens of the Imperium put up with minor
incompatibilities with moderate frequency.  Generally nothing major, but
here and there they run into things that don't talk properly to each other,
or find that nobody in the system knows how to repair the thing that's
broken.  Maybe it generates a "What do you *mean* that nobody around here's
heard of the X-32 inverted pulse-array jump drive?  I knew this place was
backwater, but I never imagined they were this behind in tech.  *Now* who
are we going to get to fix it?"  Once in awhile, it's something to center an
adventure or part of an adventure around, as someone pointed out with the
Star Wars example.  You're most likely to encounter it on the fringes (as in
Star Wars), but I can see it happening. 

>Actually, I think the key *is* communication protocols. Define those,
>and have all the "parts" be smart, and things actually get easier.

That had crossed my mind, and I'm sure you're right... for data
communications, common and "smart" protocols are going to be essential.  But
how far can it reach?  That's part of what I want to explore. 

>Hardcopy will still exist for a lot of stuff, especially things like
>ship's papers. 

I thought that at first, but then I started thinking about Smart Paper-type
technology... the advantages of paper, with far more flexibility, like being
able to render the text in any language it knows about, as well as other
visual and audible modes.  Unless it's fragile or has some other flaw, I
think it'd probably replace paper. 

>Storage? Even now we have essentially two kinds. Text and binary. Text
>is likely to use something like Unicode (a 32-bit character set that
>holds all know characters sets with lots of room left over) and some
>descendant of html. 

I'm not worried so much about formats... the comm protocol is what's
important.  What I'm curious about is storage *capacity*.  Just how much
info gets carted around on an Xboat?

>You may not *worry* about sub-assemblies of the "black boxes". If
>something goes wrong, you pull the display and plug in a spare. It has
>a different ID, so the boxes that where communicating with the old one,
>renegotiate with the new one, and away you go.

They don't call it Plug-n-Pray for nothing. :)   Though I figure what you've
presented is probably pretty accurate, I have trouble imagining it being
universal enough to never run into problems. 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 15:19:12 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

Leonard Erickson wrote:

  In mail you write:

  >>Mac users need to be aware of the fact that their files need some 'cleaning
  >>up' before they can be used properly on a PC.  Especially before
  >>Toasting an ISO 9660 CD.  Strip all the resource forks and rename all the
  >>files into 8.3 format.  Images should be saved as GIF, JPEG, BMP,
  >>or something that anyone with a cheap DOS box can read.  Leave the fancy
  >>TIFF, PDF and EPS files to the people who have spent a little
  >>money on their system (or have a newer system).  Do not give a PICT file to
  >>a Wintel user.  Though Mac is able to read PC files (except
  >>executables if you don't have VPC or equivalent), the reverse is not true.

  I have to comment on this. *All* the PC programs I know of for reading
  MacPaint(?) type files *require* that the (128 byte?) resource fork be
  present as a "header". They can't *recognize* the file if it is not
  present.

I'm talking about burning an ISO 9660 CD-ROM (PC standard).  This protocol
defaults to old MS-DOS filenames and a single data fork
(except it's no longer a 'fork' if there is only one...)  Additionally, I'm not
talking about a file (text or image) that is saved in a Mac specific
format (like MacPaint).  This is why I would recommend that the file be saved in
a format that is natively readable by a PC, e.g., GIF, JPEG,
ASCII Text, PDF, Excel, Word, EPS, etc.  There are numerous options for saving
in these formats (and many others) on a Macintosh, and
should be used instead of native MacPaint, ClarisWorks, Quark, the Mac versions
of MS Office or Corel or Adobe or anything else that a PC would have any
difficulty with.  Most PC users have a copy of Word, at least, and Windows can
read standard ASCII  and bitmapped images -- no need to burn a CD with files
saved in a format specific to a Mac application -- especially when these Mac
apps offer the option of
formatting them into PC-readable files.  Unless, of course, the CD you're making
is only going to be used on Macs.

Another comment was make on this issue: Mac users can always choose to burn a
hybrid CD.

(Since Mac is still a niche-market machine, and Wintel sits on 85-90% of
desktops, it is the Mac users who need to accommodate that vast
majority, not the other way around.  This is why MacOS offers these kinds of
options -- Apple knows that we live in a Windows world.  For
now.)

- -- What's that rumbling I hear in the distance?  Is that Linux?  :-)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #693
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Tuesday, June 1 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 694



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Computer tech in 3I
RE: Computer tech in 3I
Re: Grav seeking missiles
Re: Computer tech in 3I
RE: Fighter stuff
MOS Code for Psionic Interrogators
Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
Re: Computer tech in 3I
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Fighter stuff 
Missiles Declaration (was RE: Fighter stuff) (long)
Re: Spinward Marches Map
RE: Computer tech in 3I
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Spinward Marches Map
RE: Computer tech in 3I

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 18:37:09 -0400
From: "Judith Carlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Computer tech in 3I

>>ObTrav: In the 3I, is there one universal standard computer OS (like there
>>seems to be in Star Trek, Babylon 5, and other SF universes) or are there
>>competing OS from which people can pick and choose?

>In the end, I'm really picturing a huge mishmash of protocols and
interfaces
>for machines to talk to each other.  If the video display card on your nav
>unit loses its smoke, you probably can't just pick up a new card at any old
>port... you're going to have to find one compatible with your computer
>system, which may turn out to be nearly impossible out here in the Vargr
>Extents

At the risk of starting another 50 MB flame war on the specifics of computer
technology that only a hyper-computer geek could love: You're IMHO thinking
about this all wrong. If you can believe that you can get parts for GTL10
jump drives from The Trailing Isles to the Spinward Marches then why is it
so hard to believe that computers are any different?
I believe it's because too many Traveller players are involved in 20th
century computers. This makes them lose their perspective on things. I've
been programming since the 1970's, and the software and hardware advances in
that time have been unbelievable. No technology since the dawn of the Ice
Age has advanced at such a pace.
That having been said, let's move out of the 20th century and into the 57th.
The Vilani discovered Jumpdrive in 4714 BC. It was 912 BC before they
improved it to Jump 2. They never did discover Jump 3. That was the Solomani
a couple of thousand years after that.  What we have here is a very stagnant
society.
Some Megacorp probably holds the patents on storage media and processor
integrators, as well as what ever passes for an operating system in 1100
Imperium. That means that nobody can even attempt to improve them, not
unless they want to face extensive litigation and a couple of companies of
mercs come to defend the owning corporations rights to all legacy
technology.

Of course You'll be able to pick up a replacement card for your video. The
design probably hasn't changed since Cleon III.  As for changing software I
don't believe that the old software/hardware division will be used in
Imperial Computers, otherwise you could just copy data from one machine to
the other, something I seem to remember couldn't be done in CT. And you
could just erase software. And if you could VIRUS wouldn't work, (which
doesn't really bother me. I've never used Virus in a game, and probably
never will.)

I support the concept that all Traveller computers are neural-net which must
be programmed by teaching or via hard-wiring in the net. This would make
Traveller computer science skill completely different from present day
programming skills and explain why Computer/Computer Tech skills include
repairing both hardware and programming, since they're the same in firmware.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 18:51:00 -0400
From: "Judith Carlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Computer tech in 3I

"Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com>

>>This is definitely contradicted by canon. Throughout the Traveller
>>Literature there are references to the 'Standard Imperial Data Package';
>>plans on building everything from spanners to starships. Sort of a
>>real-life FF&S ;-)


>Canon or not, I find it very, very hard to believe that the Imperium can
>maintain any kind of standardization without slowing innovation to a near
>stand-still.  The Imperium is based on creating a stable economy, and
>business in the technical world means getting your designs to market as
>quickly as possible.

As said in my previous post, I'd say a two GTL rise in 1100 years is a
pretty good indication of a society whose level of innovation is pretty near
to zero. Business in a technical world means totally owning the complete
rights to the product that everyone has got to use. Just ask Intel or
Microsoft.


Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 18:56:42 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Grav seeking missiles

Ian Whitchurch wrote:

>Gravity wave detection is something that has been dealt with in Bruce
>Macintosh's Definitive Sensor Rules.
>
>Basically, they are too big to put in missiles. However, the bad news for
>grav tankers is that a fairly cheap sensor (MCr100 or so) individually
>resolves grav tanks at continental range.

My response:

I guess I had something different in mind.  I assumed that a grav source
would produce a "signature" some what akin to a small but rather massive
object.   As a Professional Geologist I've had occasion to over the years to
become familiar with existing geophysical instrumentation, interpret some of
the results and to investigate in particular gavametric sensing technologies
in the scientific literature.   I know that rather small variations can be
mapped with hand held instruments utilizing 60's era technology.   While
those instruments were rather delicate and needed to oriented prependicular
to the earth's surface in use they were not particularly heavy.  The
instrumentation in all it variations has much of the same limitations as a
magnetometer but even less descrimination in detail.  It looks through less
dense sedimentary rocks to the denser igneous and metamorphic bed rock
underneath.

I assumed that a sensor could be constructed that would have a "capture"
cone not to different from early heat seeking systems.  I ultimately
postulated a family of systems which took many forms.  It ran the spectrum
of SAMS of the "flying telephone pole" variety for fairly hard targets at
distance and altitude,  down to rather short ranged, approximately a
kilometer or less shoulder fired weapons intended to home in on man portable
grav dampened battle field high energy systems. The shoulder fired weapon
system could also be used to take potshots at people on grav belts, air
rafts and lightly armored grav APCs.  As it were intended for use against
ground targets they were no very bright, and did not have much in the way of
knock down.  Clearly not a system to shoot at a grav tank with and expect
any appreciable effect on target.  A bit like taking a pot shot at an 60's
era battle tank with an M-79 or M-203 gernade launcher. Like the old sargent
said when he taught me to shoot the M-79 "...all it will do is flake paint
and annoy them."   I postulated that  man in a gravbelt or on an air raft
could defeat the lower tech level short ranged shoulder fired systems by
staying NOE, putting terrain between himself and the missile or, if he had
enough altitude, going "dead stick", dropping out of the capture cone and
doing a restart.  I only ran the lower tech short ranged system against the
pcs on gravbelts as anything larger would have passed them up for a better
target.   Sorry if this ran a bit long.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:07:05 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

The Imperium as a whole takes c. 400yrs to advance by 1TL, yet the Darrians
rose from cTL9 to TL16 in about the same amount of time. Clearly a small
homogenous culture with an aptitude for research and innovation can develop
much more rapidly than a vast heterogenous culture such as the Imperium.
Them's the breaks <g>

regards

Matt

Matthew Bond
mgb@akira.swimternet.co.uk
www.akira.swinternet.co.uk
- --------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
.To run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 16:54:12 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: RE: Fighter stuff

>From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>Subject: RE: Fighter stuff
.
>I can understand how you design a combustion laser missile, but I remain
>to be convinced that you wouldn't be better putting the laser in a
>turret on the ship. (Possibly still using chemical energy if you don't
>have spare power.)

  You mean that the famous Postmark Design Bureau is unwilling to consider
using turret mounted Det-Xaser warheads? For shame! Where's FS when we need
them?

  Somehwat more seriously, the missile mounted combustion-laser needs _one_
fuel charge to generate its attack roll at missile det ranges; the ship 
mounted version would multiply fuel requirements by ROF?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 19:17:34 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: MOS Code for Psionic Interrogators

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-05-31 22:40:28 EDT, you write:
> 
> << Ever hear of psionics?
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Hmm, what  MOS (is that even the right term, Military Ocupatinal Study?) for
> Psionic inerigator in the US Army?

<tongue-in-cheek>

The US Army Military Occupational Specialty code for interrogator is
97E.  There is no MOS code for psionic interrogator; psionic ability is
designated in a soldier's nine-character MOS by an Additional Skill
Identifier (ASI), which is described below (from the US Army Personnel
Command [PERSCOM] Web site):

**begin quoted material**

a. The regulatory guidance for ASIs is contained in AR 611-201, Enlisted
Career Management Fields and Military Occupational Specialties, and AR
600-200, Enlisted Personnel Management System.

b. ASIs identify specialized skills, qualifications, and requirements
that are closely related to and are in addition to those inherent to the
MOS. ASIs are authorized for use only with designated MOSs and represent
skills too narrow in scope to comprise an MOS.

**end quoted material**

Unfortunately, I don't have a current listing of ASIs, so I can't tell
you what the appropriate one for psionics is.  I'll use an arbitrary
code of "C5" (for "fivesight", just a little better than foresight) to
stand for psionics.  Thus, my nine-character MOS, were I a _certified_
psi talent, would be:

            97E4PC5AE, where--

"97E" is the MOS code;
"4" is my skill level (this indicates that I am a Sergeant First Class,
pay grade E7);
"P" is the Skill Qualification Identifier for "parachutist" (I'm
qualified to fling my precious, only-one-to-a-customer body out of
moving aircraft);
"C5" is our example ASI for psionics;
"AE" is the two-character language identifier that indicates that I am a
qualified Arabic-Egyptian dialect linguist.

</tongue-in-cheek>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 20:25:08 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 6/1/99 7:02:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> John.Buston@tesco.net writes:
>
> <<
>  I have just checked with my accountant sister-in-law and she says that if I
> want
>  to do it this way then I should use cost to date, including all direct costs
>  (e.g. maintenance, spares, etc.) to calculate the return. No lets not do
> that...
>
>  I think this means we are both right but at different times!
>   >>
>
>         And people have been giving ME all kinds of grief because I think
> that money is an important part of a campaign.

Rest assured that TMLer and Traveller Geeks are not the ones thinking
of economics in an interstellar environment.

A story I forgot to mention when the work for Far Trader was underway:

The stock market bits of Far Trader are mine.  Early on, I was having
difficulty understanding how they would be useful things on an interstellar
scale.  (I've since been enlightened on the subject, but it was a conceptual
hurdle for me; my risk-averse legal training said investment money would
elsewhere).  I mentioned this in a conversation with my step-father,
who knows important people.  Unknown to me, he was going to have
a meeting and dinner with Alice Rivlin, Vice Chair of the U.S. Federal
Reserve Board.  My step-father brings up the subject and they had a
real discussion about stock markets in the Traveller context.  Turns out
Ms. Rivlin had already done some thinking about this, and thought that,
while there would be siginificant difficulties, they could most probably
be overcome.


My step-father isn't real creative, so I suspect this story is mostly
true.  Good story either way.


- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 17:28:09 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I
.
>Take a long hard look at the advance of computer technology in just the
>last 30 years...how much stuff is strewn along the roadside, obsolete,
>and never used. When you can't get your innovations out, and in use
>rapidly enough for them to become even mild standards, you have chaos,
>and chaos is bad for business. While the IDP's do stifle innovation
.

  I recall hearing the complaint that one of the problems in planning at
a big telecom was that they couldn't budget adequately for a new system
because they couldn't begin to guess whether or not it would be obsolete
in 5 years or twenty.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 19:02:03 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

At 12:01 PM 6/1/99 PST, Leonard wrote:
>The exception would be if you were able to saturate the defenses. But
>given the ranges, that gets *very* difficult. The missiles are going to
>take a turn or more to get there. That's what, 15 min? 30 min? A
>*million* missiles can be killed in 30 min by point defence with a kill
>rate of less than 600 per second. Now consider that a *thousand*
>missiles is going to be pushing things. 1000 missiles can be killed in
>30 min at a kill rate of a bit more than one every other second. And
>since there are likely a dozen or so lasers doing the killing, that
>brings it down to something like a couple of shots per minute per laser.
>
>See why we figure that missiles are dead meat?
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>
>

  Then why are there so many Board, Computer, RPG, games that still use
conventional missiles? Have you read that cool article in the Challenger
mag Called "Lasers in Space combat" In it he talks about all the speed and
math stuff saying it's real easy to get a fire resolution with lasers. What
is the very difficult part is getting the beam to hit that target. Now I
can understand that on a large ship (Capitol ship) you could spare (and
should spare) lots of room and power for a gazzilion little lasers with
automated fire control, but the average PC ship don't have that luxury.
Heck even a Scout ship with a triple beam laser turret doesn't even have to
computer capacity to even run a program that can plot fire resolutions and
have programs for Maneuver and jump. So a fighter with say 8 missiles in an
internal bay with 2 launchers would be a very powerful adversary for that
scout ship.

  Also on the big ships they are not always (At least I would feel) be able
to cover 100% against missiles. That's were fighters with stand off
missiles would be able to fire at different attack angles and maybe one or
two (or more) missiles could hit the big ship.
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 19:25:06 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

At 11:52 AM 6/1/99 PST, Leonard wrote:
>
>The big problem is that in space you *don't* go "jigging and zagging"
>the same way you do in an aircraft. You have to change course with
>*engine* power, there are no "control surfaces".

  I know that. But you still can jig and zag. All you have to do is make
small adjustments to your vector at a random rate of change and direction
to have a chance to throw off anyone trying to target you. I think that is
what the "To hit roll" is for. And the evasion is what modifies the to hit
roll. And granted the closer the target is it gets easier to hit. But a
well programmed missile would increase its erratic maneuvering till it got
to the point where it had to commit to a vector that would impact the ship.


>
>Get a copy of Mayday, or at least a good description of the vector
>movement system, and play out a few missile attacks. 

  Where do I get Mayday?

>Also keep in mind that it's *hard* to build something as small as a
>missile that has high accel *and* can maintain it for many turns.
>That's why most missiles are rated in "g-turns". That is, a 20g-turn
>missile can boost at 20 g for 1 turn, or 10 g for 2 turns, or 15 g for
>1 turn and 5 g for the next, etc all the way down to 1 g for 20 turns.

   Why not? This is a SciFi game. What's to say that the Hi-Tech missiles
use Anti matter/matter drives. I mean the average missile ways 5 tons (I
think I read that some where) so you could (if following current stuff)
make 3 tons of it Propellant (Helium I think) and have a little nodule of
antimatter that destroys the propellant atom by atom getting nearly 100% of
the power of the Propellant. That's a pretty powerful engine to push a
little object.

>The main reason for the "det laser" warheads is that they can score a
>"hit" without getting close to the ship. Given any reasonable sort of
>laser point defence system, a ship should be able to get 100% kill
>rates on any missiles that get within *thousands* of kilometers. 
>
>You see, to be able to hit the ship, the missiles have to be under
>power (or very lucky). If they are under power, they stand out like a
>sore thumb on sensors. If they are coastying, they can't dodge, and the
>ship *can*. Plus the target solution for a coasting missile is easy.

   What about stealth technology? couldn't a missile under coast use some
kind of masking to keep from being detected? Like say a skip missile?  


Joe
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 19:28:46 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff 

At 04:20 PM 6/1/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> That sort of works against radar at ranges of say, 100 miles to 20
>> miles. Working against lidar is much harder. And in most situations in
>> space, the active jammers merely act as target aquistion aids!
>
>Neatly sucking in radar-guided antimissile missiles.

  Or it could be drawing the fire from the PD lasers from the currently
coasting frequency shifted (due to ecm) missile that could sneak in.


- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:29:04 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Missiles Declaration (was RE: Fighter stuff) (long)

Dear Folks -

Just a quick note to say thanks to Phil Kitching for posting some numbers
about missiles vs PDL's. I know all the arguments (this IS a Done To Death
topic) but I think I missed seeing the actual mathematics (although I
spotted the deliberate mistake - I think you meant 10G missiles, not
1000G?).

Could this be added to the FAQ as part of the introductory explanation? It
could be laid out as follows:

- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Topic Title
     "Contact Missiles vs Point Defence"

Briefing
     Since the publication of TNE, many people believe that
contact-detonation space missiles are a crock. They argue that these
missiles would be shot down by point defence systems long before they can
ever contact the target vessel.

Mathematics
     The problem is in the Laws of Physics:
          speed of light             (c) 300,000 km/s
          evasion accel. of missile  (a)       6 G
          target range               (r)   1,000 km
          time available for evasion (t)     6.7 ms
          maximum evasion distance = (d)

          The relevant equations are:
               t = 2r/c = time between lidar pulse and laser pulse
          and
               d = ut + (1/2)at^2
               = 0 + (1/2)a(2r/c)^2
               = 2ar^2/c^2

          Substituting in the figures above, we get:
               d = 2 x 6 x 1000^2 / 300000^2
               = 12,000,000 /   90,000,000,000
               = 0.00013 km
               = 0.13 m
               = 13 cm

     The problem is that the r^2/c^2 term dominates all realistic values of
acceleration until the distance is into the significant fraction of a light
second (even a 10G missile can only evade by 22 cm).

     This also tends to be along the longest dimension of the missile and
most long range missiles will be more than 13 cm long. To evade by 1.5 m (a
reasonable missile size) the missile needs to have an acceleration of
67.5G.

     Alteratively, if you just need a pure sideways "dodge", this means the
target nose-cone area could be as small as 10 cm across. Even so, when
closer in at 100 km, the missile needs a sideways acceleration of 450G (!)
to avoid being hit.

     The net result is that PDL's destroy contact missiles (including those
that fragment at a few hundred km) at a rate equal to their ROF. All
missiles will be destroyed somewhere in that last thousand km from their
target.

Solutions to the Problem

     To get around this, TNE introduced non-contact, nuclear-pumped xray
laser missiles. This, in turn, made many long-time players unhappy. They
argued that this application of real-world physics might be nice from a
hard-SF point of view, but it significantly alters the canonical view of
space combat. First, it is a relaxation of the Imperial Rules of War, which
might make sense in the New Era but not the Third Imperium. Second, not all
vessels have point-defence weaponry, such as civilian craft. Third, a
surprised target or one deprived of sensors or power cannot shoot a missile
down.

     Therefore, a number of alternative explanations were created and added
to the mix, such as kinetic-kill missiles (KKM's) that explode some
distance from the target and scatter shrapnel into the vessel's path.
Others created 10- and 20G missiles (although even these fall victims to
physics, see above), or chemically-pumped laser missiles. Still others
suggested overloading the PDL's - what happens when a missile cruiser
shoots at a far trader, for instance (30 turrets x 3 missile racks = 900
missiles!). Finally, other people decided simply to ignore the problem when
using more abstract ship combat systems, such as _High Guard_.
- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

Have I missed anything?

I noticed that there is no recognition of the time it takes to process the
lidar response and calculate a firing solution, or of the time it takes for
the missile to travel that last 1000 km, or of the time it takes for the
PDL to recharge.

Can someone help here?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 20:34:56 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Spinward Marches Map

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:

> > From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
>
> > You know, I don't want to be overly petty, but have you considered
> > adding hex numbers?
>
> I think you should add hex numbers.

They'll be added at the end.

> > Steve Daniels wrote:
>
> > > 3) Opinions:  Political borders or not?
>
> I think you should add these too.

I've decided not to so that the end-user can add and change them
as desired.


> What is the date of your map?

Uh, I don't know.  Guess I was aiming at G:T (1120?).
The reason for omitting borders is so that it would be useful
in different times.  Are there any changes in amber/red zones;
navy/scout bases; x-boat routes; etc. between about 1100 and
1120?

Once the map is done, I can very easily make pre-5th FW,
post-5thFW, and TNE versions.


- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:56:34 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: RE: Computer tech in 3I

From: "Cravens, Carl" 
> >Hardcopy will still exist for a lot of stuff, especially things like
> >ship's papers. 
> 
> I thought that at first, but then I started thinking about Smart
Paper-type
> technology... the advantages of paper, with far more flexibility, like
being
> able to render the text in any language it knows about, as well as other
> visual and audible modes.  Unless it's fragile or has some other flaw, I
> think it'd probably replace paper. 

The only problem with Smart Paper is expense.  There are lots of
hippie^h^h^h^h^h^hagricultural worlds in the Imperium that would just love
to supply lots of cheap fibre based products.  (By-products of the Hadive
trade, of course :)  Apart from shipping costs, paper is essentially
'free'.

The problem is, however, bulk.  Any serious amount of information would be
held electronically, and particularly if it has to be presented in multiple
formats/languages.  Whether or not that is some version of Smart Paper is
up to you.  I tend to assume that personal documents, like money, are kept
on some kind of data crystal, which you can where around your wrist or
neck, or have imbedded in your head, or hang off some kind of
body-piercing, or.....  Just wave it past a 'reader' and the data is
available.  A 'reader' is essentially just any old computer.

I doubt that hardcopies would be used much on reasonably 'civilised'
worlds.  Even most backwaters would have at least a few data-readers
(computers capable of understanding Imperial data formats), or else anyone
carrying electronic documents would bring along their own.  Obviously the
latter offers scope for forgery, but any documents from a higher TL are
potentially forged, even hardcopies.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:01:19 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

> I also seem to remember the use of gravic repulsers as a point defense
> weapon against missiles. Was that TNE?  

Repulsors are in High Guard and all the later versions of Trav, IIRC.

The G:T book says that gravity beam
> weapons are not available,(thou I intend to use them IMTU as a Hi GTL12
or
> GTL13 device as point defense weapons for Darrian and Imperial capital
ships
> in my upcoming campaign)

Repulsors are okay in GT (Expect to see them in future supplements). 
Gravity beam weapons are something from the  baseline GURPS technology
progression that use rapidly oscillating grav fields to do physical damage
right through armor.  That's not allowed in GT (reaching through armor
being strictly reserved for meson guns).

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:05:48 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

In a message dated 6/1/99 8:36:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, warlord@means.net 
writes:

<< 
    What about stealth technology? couldn't a missile under coast use some
 kind of masking to keep from being detected? Like say a skip missile?  
 
  >>
Seems to be too that this is how missiles must work.  They may work more like 
mines, a quick very high acc into the projected path of the target, where it 
wold lurk until a proximity trigger would cause it to explode or acc again at 
short range.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:54:21 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Spinward Marches Map

- ----------
> From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> 
> in different times.  Are there any changes in amber/red zones;
> navy/scout bases; x-boat routes; etc. between about 1100 and
> 1120?

I think there are a few.  There's at least one new amber zone, at Foelen
where Vargr raiders nuked a Zho world.  I suspect there are others.
 
> Once the map is done, I can very easily make pre-5th FW,
> post-5thFW, and TNE versions.
> 

I could really use an immediate pre 5tFW version. :-)
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 22:03:37 -0400
From: "Judith Carlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Computer tech in 3I

>How are you going to enforce it?  While the *government* (and therefore its
>starports) may be standardized, I don't see how they're going to force
every
>computer in the Imperium to run the same OS.

Imperial copyright/patent law will force it to happen. As I understand
Marc's explanation Imperial Patent law is derivative. Which means it works
like this:
If I invent a line printer I own the design of the printer, and I own any
derivative technology.  That means if someone invents a dot matrix printer I
own it. If someone invents an inkjet print, I own it. If someone invents a
Laser jet printer, I own it.
I can license the design to you and you can manufacture and sell it as long
as I get the royalties.  Under this system how much are you going to put
into R&D?

As a matter of fact the reason megacorp R&D is so hush-hush is that almost
all research is derivative.  That means that you need to develop the
product, then make sure that you either have a license from the owner,
before the owner finds out how much more valuable your discovery makes his
product, so that he doesn't jack up the license fees on you, or you can
differentiate the product so much an Imperial Patent Court won't consider it
derivative.


Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #694
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Wednesday, June 2 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 695



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Computer tech in 3I
Re: Fighter stuff 
Red Square, Comrade?...
Economic progress in 3I (was Computer tech)
RE: Fighter stuff
Tarsus worth buying?
Psionic MOS
I like missiles!
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: The Zhodani Conspiracy
First Survey
Uses for Fighters (longish)
Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit
Cybergoths MacOS archive restored
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 19:07:08 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

"Cravens, Carl" wrote:

  I have a feeling that travelling citizens of the Imperium put up with minor
incompatibilities with moderate frequency.  Generally nothing
  major, but here and there they run into things that don't talk properly to
each other,
  or find that nobody in the system knows how to repair the thing that's
  broken.  Maybe it generates a "What do you *mean* that nobody around here's
  heard of the X-32 inverted pulse-array jump drive?  I knew this place was
  backwater, but I never imagined they were this behind in tech.  *Now* who
  are we going to get to fix it?"  Once in awhile, it's something to center an
  adventure or part of an adventure around, as someone pointed out with the
  Star Wars example.  You're most likely to encounter it on the fringes (as in
  Star Wars), but I can see it happening.

  >Actually, I think the key *is* communication protocols. Define those,
  >and have all the "parts" be smart, and things actually get easier.

  That had crossed my mind, and I'm sure you're right... for data
  communications, common and "smart" protocols are going to be essential.  But
  how far can it reach?  That's part of what I want to explore.


As Carlos Alos-Ferrer pointed out in an earlier post, I believe that the key
here is emulation technology.

Right here in 1999 (and definitely with the introduction of Merced in late
2001, PPC G4 in 2000, DEC Alpha, SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, etc.) we
have chips that can operate much faster than we realistically need -- the only
exception being those pro fields that push the CPU near its
limits, like CAD, 3-D modeling/rendering, file servers for 100's of PCs, A/V
post-production --  you get the idea.  How much computer
power does it take to target a missile rack or a sandcaster or a beam laser?
More than the computer built into Apache helicopters or
Ambrams tanks that can register the gunner's eye-movements to target their
weapons?  And these are supposed to be crude and primitive
compared to 3I standards.  By that time, CPUs (or their equivalent) will be
easily fast enough to run a very basic 'nanokernel' style OS that
accommodates thousands of 'plug-in' emulators.  I'd say that a TL13 emulation
of a TL10 OS would run much faster than the original.  The
inherent design of CPUs allows for geometric advancement in speed.  This
doesn't even take into account what later technologies may add
to the steepness of that curve.

IMTU, the incredible speed and power of 3I computer tech, coupled with software
emulation, allows one to negotiate the difficult currents
of communicating with otherwise incompatible hardware/software (whether legacy
apps from TL10, or designs implemented months or
years distance from wherever you are.)  This is the model under which IP and
HTML were designed, for instance.  Businesses and whole
economies suffer from either 1) several widely used but incompatible systems,
or 2) a single, privately-owned monopoly insuring
compatibility (with its own self-interest in mind, as with any other
monopoly.)  The Vilani Imperium would no doubt make the base OS a
state-controlled 'utility' of sorts, able to accomplish all the necessities.
Every off-the-shelf starship design would include a computer with
all the appropriate 'plug-in' emus to allow that ship and all its systems to
operate.  Custom designs would have to include custom emus --
but the basic OS remains throughout the Imperium.  I figure this uniformity
would come about with the advent and proliferation of Jump
Drive (since you need 'modern' computers to make that work, and the fact that
Jump Drive technology _is_ universal.)  Canon doesn't say
that there are different and incompatible methods for achieving Jump Drive --
in fact, it seems to imply that there is only one way to do it.
(Thus the 'marker' on the TL charts for any given world when they invent or
discover -- or steal and reverse engineer -- Jump capability.)

  I'm not worried so much about formats... the comm protocol is what's
  important.  What I'm curious about is storage *capacity*.  Just how much
  info gets carted around on an Xboat?

Just think for a second about the kind of storage capacity that was capable 20
years ago.  A 10 MB hard drive was HUGE!  A 100 MB hard
drive was outrageously expensive.  A few years later, the capacity went WAY up
and the price went WAY down.  Nowadays, 36 *GB* hard
drives can be had for a fraction of the cost of a 100 MB drive 10 years ago.
Long-sighted corporations that are heavy into R&D (like IBM,
Bell Labs, TRW (and other military contractors), are even now working on
'molecular-level' storage solutions, that will make the size and
capacity of the latest hard drives seem like 1st generation 5.25" floppies in
comparison.  I'd say that a standard J-4 Xboat would be advanced
enough to have the storage capacity to hold every piece of data (including
images) that we have uncovered and/or added to in our history on earth!  In
just a small 'chip' in its computer, at that.  Any molecular biologist will
tell you that the information stored in a single microscopic
strand of DNA can hold more data than any computer that now exists.  Did I
mention _microscopic_?  If it's large enough to actually see it
with the naked eye, a computer utilizing this type of 'molecular storage' would
easily be able to store all the info you could possibly need.
The medium for this storage would most likely be crystalline, or biomass.  The
structure of either can possess trillions of possible
permutations in each microscopic 'slice.'  Possibly several orders more than
trillions.

  >You may not *worry* about sub-assemblies of the "black boxes". If
  >something goes wrong, you pull the display and plug in a spare. It has
  >a different ID, so the boxes that where communicating with the old one,
  >renegotiate with the new one, and away you go.

  They don't call it Plug-n-Pray for nothing. :)   Though I figure what you've
  presented is probably pretty accurate, I have trouble imagining it being
  universal enough to never run into problems.

I agree -- problems will always arise, to some extent.  But the fact that there
are functioning Jump Drives all across the Imperium and
beyond tells me something about the feasibility of universal technology in the
TU.

"I've got a J-3 Hiver emu, starting bid 1.0MCr -- Two?  Ok, sir.  Do I hear two
and a half?"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 22:04:18 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff 

> At 04:20 PM 6/1/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >> In mail you write:
> >> 
> >> That sort of works against radar at ranges of say, 100 miles to 20
> >> miles. Working against lidar is much harder. And in most situations in
> >> space, the active jammers merely act as target aquistion aids!
> >
> >Neatly sucking in radar-guided antimissile missiles.
> 
>   Or it could be drawing the fire from the PD lasers from the currently
> coasting frequency shifted (due to ecm) missile that could sneak in.

Same diff, different day.  <grin>  All in all, something worth looking into, methinks...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 19:44:47 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Red Square, Comrade?...

>Where do I get Mayday?

  Marc Miller still sells Mayday, AFAIK;  <FarFuture@aol.com>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 19:45:01 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Economic progress in 3I (was Computer tech)

>From: "Judith Carlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
>Subject: RE: Computer tech in 3I
...
>As said in my previous post, I'd say a two GTL rise in 1100 years is a
>pretty good indication of a society whose level of innovation is pretty near
>to zero. Business in a technical world means totally owning the complete
>rights to the product that everyone has got to use. Just ask Intel or
>Microsoft.

  It's uncertain, but from the history of TL progression in the 3I it almost
seems like progress at the upper limit of 3I TL occurs only during peacetime
inside stable (non-expanding) borders. The Imperium doesn't go from TL C to
D until half a millenium of expansion (& warfare) is behind them; from ~650
the 3I only goes to TL E before 1000.

  Even given the above the jump from TL F in 1002 to early G in 1100+ seems
highly strange - although expansion isn't going on there's the rebuilding
of the damage from the Solomani Rim War (and the lost investment to pay for
Imperial forces to fight it), and then further struggles with the Zho's,
who for all their limitations can put a lot of force into contact with the
Spinward extremity of an empire that's mostly awfully far away and awkward
of access.

  OTOH, if TL's are non-linear (and there's nothing to indicate the contrary,
AFAIK) then asides from the Darrian and perhaps the Ancient anomalies there
are no discrepancies we can be sure of.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 22:51:28 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: RE: Fighter stuff

At 01:10 PM 6/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 01:34 PM 6/1/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>>  Oh. But when do PDL's become available? Is that something introduced in
>>MT or T4? >I know that I have allowed my players the opportunity to fire
>>>there lasers at Missiles in lew of firing at the other ship, but as I see
>>>it. Firing at a small object that is using active Evasion maneuvers would
>>>be extremely hard to hit.
>>>- --
>>>   Joe Kirby
>>
>>I also seem to remember the use of gravic repulsers as a point defense
>>weapon against missiles. Was that TNE?  The G:T book says that gravity beam
>>weapons are not available,(thou I intend to use them IMTU as a Hi GTL12 or
>>GTL13 device as point defense weapons for Darrian and Imperial capital ships
>>in my upcoming campaign)
>>My question is how do these weapons stand in OTU?
>>
>>Terry C
>>
>>All that is Gold does not glitter
>>Not all who travel are lost
>
>  The only place I have ever heard of them was in Star Trek (I think
>Repulser beams) But hey, I have Traveller games I call "Side Treks" Where
>they either get popped into (I.E. misjumped) into an alternate reality
>where Shields, Warp drives, Tractor beams and Transporters are the norm. Of
>course I use the "Historical" scenarios from StarFleet Battles as the basis
>for the adventures. Usually I use the ones where the feds get destroyed or
>its a major engagement where the PC's can play a small but important part
>in the battle.

Kind of like that little target drone in one of the early Captain's Logs
that dealt with the Feds and Gorn dispatching a Romulan attack.

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:11:37 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Tarsus worth buying?

Fellow TMLers:

I just saw several (at least 3) shrink-wrapped copies of the old GDW
supplement Tarsus for sale at my FLGS for about $10 a copy.  They look to
be mint (complete with the bottom of the box upside down relative to the
front cover). 

Is this a worthwhile supplement at a reasonable price?  If yes, is there
any interest from the list in getting the other copies?

Reply via e-mail to TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 22:30:26 -0500
From: "Vincent P. Runci" <vahid@prodigy.net>
Subject: Psionic MOS

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEAC7E.58A94E60
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    In the US Army, MOS refers to "Military Occupational Specialty".  =
For instance, 11 Bravo would be infantryman.  The existence of a psionic =
MOS is classified.

VR

- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEAC7E.58A94E60
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; In the US Army, =
MOS refers to=20
&quot;Military Occupational Specialty&quot;.&nbsp; For instance, 11 =
Bravo would=20
be infantryman.&nbsp; The existence of a psionic MOS is =
classified.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>VR</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEAC7E.58A94E60--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 20:29:37 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: I like missiles!

OK, here is my brief hand-wave for missiles:

1.  Lasers aren't as good as everyone seems to think.  The basics of the
"PDL must win" argument miss 3 very important factors:

    a. Accuracy.  Who says lasers are 100% accurate?  A 1 degree
innaccuracy, at 100 km, is a miss- oh my god, I can't remember the @#$%
formula.  Could someone please remind me?  Anyway, there are quite a few
good arguments to suggest that a laser will be off-target by some amount-
vibration, calibration, "inherent accuracy"- even recoil, if a gaseous media
is used.

    b. Computation/aiming  time. It seems to be taken for granted that a
defending ship is always using its full active sensor suite to detect and
cook incoming missiles, and that its ladar has multiple channels that switch
targets intantaneously.  It also assumes that targetting information has no
processing time, and that the PDL needs no time to track the target.

    c. Missile evasion.  First of all, if a missile with a diameter of 10cm
evades 22cm by the time the laser arrives, then the laser needs to saturate
an area of 1520 cm2, looking for a target of only 79 cm2 (BTW, I am geometry
challenged, but I'm sure someone will let me know if I've goofed on my
math).  What is the beam diameter of an average PDL, and remember, unless it
delivers all of its energy simultaneously, there will be a "footprint", not
a clean punch through. Assuming a 1cm beam, it looks like 19 shots will be
required- if the PDL can fire that many times at once, as otherwise, the
area to be soaked expands fast enough that a new fire solution is better.

    d. Decoys.  The acceleration test shouldn't work.  My missile releases a
dozen globs of super-quick-setting ablative foam with tiny little engines
and a "follow-me" guidance, which should be difficult to tell apart, as long
as they basically stay within a KM or so of each other.  All the target sees
is 12-15 little 10cm circular radiators coming at him.  Just makes things
more interesting.


OK, just my Cr.02.  As you can tell, I LIKE missiles, old CT ones, TNE ones,
all of 'em.  BTW, has anyone thought about a variant of the chemical det
laser, the Self Forging Fragment?  Basically just a variant on the HEAT
warhead, you use an explosive charge as a "gun" to fire a slug of metal at
*VERY* high accelerations.  Much easier than a contact hit, but not as
deadly as det-lasers.


Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

Whenever books are burned men also,
 in the end, are burned.- Heinrich Heine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:30:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

In mail you write:

> At 12:01 PM 6/1/99 PST, Leonard wrote:
>>The exception would be if you were able to saturate the defenses. But
>>given the ranges, that gets *very* difficult. The missiles are going to
>>take a turn or more to get there. That's what, 15 min? 30 min? A
>>*million* missiles can be killed in 30 min by point defence with a kill
>>rate of less than 600 per second. Now consider that a *thousand*
>>missiles is going to be pushing things. 1000 missiles can be killed in
>>30 min at a kill rate of a bit more than one every other second. And
>>since there are likely a dozen or so lasers doing the killing, that
>>brings it down to something like a couple of shots per minute per laser.
>>
>>See why we figure that missiles are dead meat?
>
>   Then why are there so many Board, Computer, RPG, games that still use
> conventional missiles?

Same reason that so many have ships that manuever like aircraft.
Because that's what people *expect*, not what things are likely to
*really* be like.

> Have you read that cool article in the Challenger
> mag Called "Lasers in Space combat" In it he talks about all the speed and
> math stuff saying it's real easy to get a fire resolution with lasers. What
> is the very difficult part is getting the beam to hit that target.

I haven't seen it, but Bruce (or someone else on the list) *works* with
lasers and aiming systems (not classified, because they aren't
weapons). And *he* disagrees. He sees no reason why the techniques he
uses can't be used with weapons grade lasers. You use the *same*
optiics for the laser and for it's aiming lidar, so the laser *will*
hit what it's aimed at. Aiming based on radar will be less accurate,
but still pretty good.


> Now I
> can understand that on a large ship (Capitol ship) you could spare (and
> should spare) lots of room and power for a gazzilion little lasers with
> automated fire control, but the average PC ship don't have that luxury.

True enough. Small ships are more vulnerable. 

> Heck even a Scout ship with a triple beam laser turret doesn't even have to
> computer capacity to even run a program that can plot fire resolutions and
> have programs for Maneuver and jump. So a fighter with say 8 missiles in an
> internal bay with 2 launchers would be a very powerful adversary for that
> scout ship.

Sure, but it's pretty useless against any decent *military* vessel.
Which is why folks wonder why there are all these fighters. :-)

>   Also on the big ships they are not always (At least I would feel) be able
> to cover 100% against missiles. That's were fighters with stand off
> missiles would be able to fire at different attack angles and maybe one or
> two (or more) missiles could hit the big ship.

The approach angle can't be counted on. The orientation of the ship and
the direction of travel aren't related.  Even if you are using the main
drive, your velocity vector and acceleration vector aren't going to
line up all the time.

All you need to do to make most angles pretty damn useless is spin the
ship *slowly* about the long axis. With decently placed turrets, that's
going to give you full sphere coverage. Objects nearer the fore/aft
axis will be the *easiest* to hit in that they are covered by turrets
more of the time. objects directly "abeam" will get the least coverage.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:14:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

In mail you write:

> At 11:52 AM 6/1/99 PST, Leonard wrote:

>>Get a copy of Mayday, or at least a good description of the vector
>>movement system, and play out a few missile attacks. 
>
>   Where do I get Mayday?

Try a used game store. Or a copy of one of the CT books or supplements
that describes the vector movement system.

>>Also keep in mind that it's *hard* to build something as small as a
>>missile that has high accel *and* can maintain it for many turns.
>>That's why most missiles are rated in "g-turns". That is, a 20g-turn
>>missile can boost at 20 g for 1 turn, or 10 g for 2 turns, or 15 g for
>>1 turn and 5 g for the next, etc all the way down to 1 g for 20 turns.
>
>    Why not? This is a SciFi game. What's to say that the Hi-Tech missiles
> use Anti matter/matter drives. I mean the average missile ways 5 tons (I
> think I read that some where) so you could (if following current stuff)
> make 3 tons of it Propellant (Helium I think) and have a little nodule of
> antimatter that destroys the propellant atom by atom getting nearly 100% of
> the power of the Propellant. That's a pretty powerful engine to push a
> little object.

And it's also a higher TL than is available in even the Third Imperium.
That's the thing. Traveller is a "hard" SF game. That means there are
limits that apply to everybody. 

According to design rules, you can't fit a fusion plant into a missile,
and antimatter isn't available. Thus the limited delta-V for the
missiles. 

>>The main reason for the "det laser" warheads is that they can score a
>>"hit" without getting close to the ship. Given any reasonable sort of
>>laser point defence system, a ship should be able to get 100% kill
>>rates on any missiles that get within *thousands* of kilometers. 
>>
>>You see, to be able to hit the ship, the missiles have to be under
>>power (or very lucky). If they are under power, they stand out like a
>>sore thumb on sensors. If they are coastying, they can't dodge, and the
>>ship *can*. Plus the target solution for a coasting missile is easy.
>
>    What about stealth technology? couldn't a missile under coast use some
> kind of masking to keep from being detected? Like say a skip missile?  

Since you can't build "thruster plates" small enough for a missile, the
missile is using a *reaction* drive. And *any* reaction drive that can
give the standard levels of performance is about as stealthy as a
magnesium flare.

Under *coast*, stealthing is possible. But the trouble is that your
position and vector are known when you cut the engine. And in space,
you'll continue along that vector until you hit something or are
deflected by the gravity of something *big*. So even though you are
coasting, your position is still known with high accuracy. 

If you can manage to be coasting *before* the ship gets inside its
sensor range, then stealth might let you get close enough to fire up
your engines *if* you get close enough. But being in the right position
on anything close to the right vector is going to be sheer luck. 

Though I suspect that this is how "mines" would work. Drifting,
stealthed missiles that only fire up once you get too close for a miss.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:43:11 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: The Zhodani Conspiracy

Dear David et al -

You asked:
>Can anyone who's played the software game MT1 - The
>Zhodani Conspiracy give me any hints on how to
>generate characters who'll survive the opening
>firefight?

Run.

No, seriously, RUN from the first firefight into the city itself. You are
not really supposed to take on those guys yet - you need *real* weapons and
armour, both available in the city. This is Law level 0 Efate, after all.
(Actually, the *real* weapons - PGMP's - are for sale in the floating city
to the north. Hire a grav speeder. Buy the weapons. Ship them to Alell.
Have your Intrusion PC slip them past Customs disguised as French loaves.
Sell them to make a killing. Buy a j2 drive.).

...but to win firefights, do the following:

1.   Immediately you get into a firefight, stop the action. Save the game.
2.   Split the "big guy" into your component party.
3.   In turn, get everyone to aim at the bad guy. Make sure they have all
reloaded (Tip: it's preferable not to force the PC with poor weapons skills
to fire near another PC, but sometimes this may be unavoidable).
4.   Personally control the PC with the best weapon skills and/or the best
weapon. You'll be able to fire faster.
5.   Restart the action and blast away! The other PC's will now fire and
reload automatically (assuming they have ammo).
6.   If someone is hit badly, freeze the action. Get the medic or person
with the med kit to heal everyone back up to full strength.
7.   Repeat #4!

It's probably a good idea to get used to the interface in a non-combat
setting. Stop and aim at a tree, for instance. You can't blow up the
landscape without a grenade launcher or PGMP, but you can shoot at it.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 01:51:55 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: First Survey

Condition: Very minor scuffing on the cover.  Has new book smell.
Price: $8.00 (American)+S&H (if more than one person wants it will be best 
offer+S&H)
- -Stephen
Please respond off list

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 00:52:21 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Uses for Fighters (longish)

Having followed the recent "Fighter Stuff" thread, I decided to point
out some uses for fighters that don't contradict all the arguments
against their use in attacking capital assets:

1.  Support for ground troops.  Fighters designed with an Airframe
configuration can provide a measure of support for ground troops in a
planetary assault, in both the air superiority and ground attack
missions.  Are they as effective in these roles as planet-based aircraft
of similar tech level?  Probably not.  However, they are better than
nothing.

2.  Attacks against civilian-type ships.  As has been noted, large
military craft can handily defeat fighters.  However, civilian vessels
are much more vulnerable to fighters, as they generally lack both
sufficient armament to destroy the fighters quickly, and sufficient
armor to withstand the weapons that a fighter can carry.

3.  Support to commerce raiding.  A commerce raiding force, equipped
with a number of fighters, can place the commander of any convoy escort
in a dilemma:  Attack the main raider force, and allow the fighters to
ravage the convoy; or keep some escorts back to deal with the fighters,
and risk having the main raider force defeat the escorts piecemeal.

4.  Anti-fighter duties.  This is a corollary to Point 3 above.  One way
for a convoy escorting force to protect its charges against raiding
fighters is to have fighters at its own disposal.  If the raiding
fighters have to deal with defending counterparts, they are less
effective in shooting up those vulnerable civilian ships.

5.  Patrol and picket duties.  Larger fighters, such as the AuricTech
F5A-1 "Demon" (soon to be posted to my Web site), are suitable for
patrols of shipping lanes (i.e., the routes to and from Jump points). 
Ethically-challenged owners of armed starships will find their felonious
intentions complicated by the presence of patrolling heavy fighters. 
Similarly, fighters can provide early warning to the approach of enemy
forces.

6.  Quick reaction forces.  IMHO, it is easier to maintain a rotating
force of fighters on "strip alert" than any larger vessels.  As I see
it, prepping a ship or boat to sortie takes time based on its size. 
Thus, a small craft such as a fighter, or even several fighters, can get
underway to investigate a possible problem more rapidly than a larger
SDB or starship.  The fighters may not be able to deal with the problem
themselves, but they can at least provide the heavier follow-on forces
with useful intelligence about the situation.

Bottom line:  Can fighters expect to engage enemy warships and win? 
Probably not.  Are fighters useful in support roles?  I think so.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 17:34:14 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit

Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com> writes:
>In gif format, the full sector is 224k. This is, of course, with
>the trade routes partly done.

What kind of DPI and colour level are you using?

>> I checked with Marc Miller if it was okay to use the map. He
>> responded that
>> as long as it was not for profit, and I put the FFE disclaimer on
>> trademark, it was okay. I suggest you contact him and check. He
>> responded
>> within a week, IIRC.
>
>I will. Do you have his address handy?

FarFuture@aol.com

>> BITS will happily mirror them for you, if you'd like.
>
>Let me actually get a bit more of it done and then, yes certainly.
>Thank you.

No problem.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:20:28 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Cybergoths MacOS archive restored

Hi all,

I've finally had time to get my website back up and running (after a
fashion). The Traveller pages are still somewhat sparse, but watch this
space or rather http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ . You'll need a frame
capable browser, and ideally 800 x 600 display in 256 colours.

Anyway, the good news. Rob Priors' non-commercial software (such as the
MegaCharacter, MegaLinguist and MegaMercenary Hypercard Stacks for MacOS)
is now restored. More will follow, including a demo of Rob's excellent (but
non-Traveller) crossword program, my own ship designs, rules, and character
writeups.

Rob's commercial software is still available from http://www.bits.org.uk/
and includes GT Shipyard (*the* Mac GT starship software), Infini-V (T4 CSC
Vehicles design), QSDS (T4 QSDS design), and IGS2 (sector and system
design), all for MacOS 7+.

Regards,

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:39:41 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com> wrote:

>(Since Mac is still a niche-market machine, and Wintel sits on 85-90% of
>desktops, it is the Mac users who need to accommodate that vast
>majority, not the other way around.

I'm all for positive descrimination of the minority in this case ;-)

>- -- What's that rumbling I hear in the distance?  Is that Linux?  :-)

Interesting how Apple is dropping PICT and replacing it with the very cross
platform PDF as standard...

Linux I can live with ;-)


Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #695
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Wednesday, June 2 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 696



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Psionic MOS
Re: Fighter stuff 
Re: MOS Code for Psionic Interrogators
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Fighter stuff 
Re: Psionic MOS
Re: Fighter stuff 
Mercs vs Merchants
Re: Computer tech in 3I
Fighter Weapons Mounting and Crewing
RE: Fighter stuff
RE: Computer tech in 3I
Re: Psionic MOS
Re: Fighter stuff 
RE: Fighter stuff
Re: Fighter stuff 
Re: I like missiles!
Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
Re:Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Fighter Weapons Mounting and Crewing
RE: Fighter stuff
Re: MOS Code for Psionic Interrogators
Re: Psionic MOS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 01:53:37 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Psionic MOS

In a message dated 99-06-01 23:22:15 EDT, you write:

<<     In the US Army, MOS refers to "Military Occupational Specialty".  For 
instance, 11 Bravo would be infantryman.  The existence of a psionic MOS is 
classified. >>

Hmm, what was the CIA project, Star somthing or other?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 01:58:14 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff 

In a message dated 99-06-01 22:14:04 EDT, you write:

<< > >> That sort of works against radar at ranges of say, 100 miles to 20
 > >> miles. Working against lidar is much harder. And in most situations in
 > >> space, the active jammers merely act as target aquistion aids!
 > >
 > >Neatly sucking in radar-guided antimissile missiles. >>

Thats why you need some sort of system to cancle out the emisions, some sort 
of generorator that would project an anti sigiture, then you have something 
that would make some one's day.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 02:04:58 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: MOS Code for Psionic Interrogators

In a message dated 99-06-01 20:21:36 EDT, you write:

<< <tongue-in-cheek>
 
 The US Army Military Occupational Specialty code for interrogator is
 97E.  There is no MOS code for psionic interrogator; psionic ability is
 designated in a soldier's nine-character MOS by an Additional Skill
 Identifier (ASI), which is described below (from the US Army Personnel
 Command [PERSCOM] Web site):
 
 **begin quoted material**
 
 a. The regulatory guidance for ASIs is contained in AR 611-201, Enlisted
 Career Management Fields and Military Occupational Specialties, and AR
 600-200, Enlisted Personnel Management System.
 
 b. ASIs identify specialized skills, qualifications, and requirements
 that are closely related to and are in addition to those inherent to the
 MOS. ASIs are authorized for use only with designated MOSs and represent
 skills too narrow in scope to comprise an MOS.

xxxx
Like sniper, aquatic, augmented battle armor?
xxxx
 
 **end quoted material**
 
 Unfortunately, I don't have a current listing of ASIs, so I can't tell
 you what the appropriate one for psionics is.  I'll use an arbitrary
 code of "C5" (for "fivesight", just a little better than foresight) to
 stand for psionics.  Thus, my nine-character MOS, were I a _certified_
 psi talent, would be:
 
             97E4PC5AE, where--
 
 "97E" is the MOS code;
 "4" is my skill level (this indicates that I am a Sergeant First Class,
 pay grade E7);
 "P" is the Skill Qualification Identifier for "parachutist" (I'm
 qualified to fling my precious, only-one-to-a-customer body out of
 moving aircraft);
 "C5" is our example ASI for psionics;
 "AE" is the two-character language identifier that indicates that I am a
 qualified Arabic-Egyptian dialect linguist.
 
 </tongue-in-cheek> >>

Thanks for all the info, Sarge, is there some place, on the web,  that has a 
listing of the MOSs and ASIs or in two years to I need to go down to the 
recruiter's and sign on the dotted line?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 02:07:08 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

In a message dated 99-06-01 16:47:26 EDT, you write:

<< Just consider how well current Navy anti-missile measures work. And
 they can only see the targets for the last few miles. If they could see
 them coming for *thousands* of km, they'd do even better.
 
 Add lasers, which don't have the range and aiming restrictions of
 anti-missile missiles, and it gets *really* hard to account for the
 *lack* of a 100% kill rate.
 
 The exception would be if you were able to saturate the defenses. But
 given the ranges, that gets *very* difficult. The missiles are going to
 take a turn or more to get there. That's what, 15 min? 30 min? A
 *million* missiles can be killed in 30 min by point defence with a kill
 rate of less than 600 per second. Now consider that a *thousand*
 missiles is going to be pushing things. 1000 missiles can be killed in
 30 min at a kill rate of a bit more than one every other second. And
 since there are likely a dozen or so lasers doing the killing, that
 brings it down to something like a couple of shots per minute per laser.
 
 See why we figure that missiles are dead meat? >>

What about false projections of other missiles?  
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 02:13:02 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff 

> In a message dated 99-06-01 22:14:04 EDT, you write:
> 
> << > >> That sort of works against radar at ranges of say, 100 miles to 20
>  > >> miles. Working against lidar is much harder. And in most situations in
>  > >> space, the active jammers merely act as target aquistion aids!
>  > >
>  > >Neatly sucking in radar-guided antimissile missiles. >>
> 
> Thats why you need some sort of system to cancle out the emisions, some sort 
> of generorator that would project an anti sigiture, then you have something 
> that would make some one's day.

You *WANT* the antimissile missiles sucked in by the decoys.  That's what 
they're designed for!!!!!!

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 01:15:15 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Psionic MOS

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-06-01 23:22:15 EDT, you write:
> 
> <<     In the US Army, MOS refers to "Military Occupational Specialty".  For
> instance, 11 Bravo would be infantryman.  The existence of a psionic MOS is
> classified. >>

I maintain that the US Army wouldn't _have_ a "psionic MOS."  ASIs
(Additional Skill Identifiers) would be found in the intelligence field
(primarily telepaths, clairvoyants, and precogs).  Other psi talents
(telekinetics, teleporters, psi-Awares, and "Specials") would probably
have an SQI (Skill Qualification Identifier), similar to paratroopers
(P), linguists (L), qualified  military instructors (H), and other
soldiers with a non-MOS-specific special skill.  (See my previous post
on psionic interrogators for how ASIs and SQIs are annotated.)
> 
> Hmm, what was the CIA project, Star somthing or other?
> -Stephen

You may want to reconsider asking questions about this topic, lest the
Templars (or others of similar ilk) come knocking at your door....  >;-)

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 02:19:56 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff 

In a message dated 99-06-01 16:24:43 EDT, you write:

<< Which is why you'd want a flight of 'glue' missiles out in front to suck 
in the antimissile missiles.
 
 Say whatever you want about the Soviets, but they weren't *dumb*, just 
technologically challanged.  <grin> >>

Untile Mig-29 and Su-27 came out, they also had something like a 2:1 
advantage in numbers.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:19:10 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Mercs vs Merchants

Dear Folks -

Just received a set of Engineer jokes, and thought this one would translate
well to our recent discussion:

Q: What's the difference between Starship Engineers and Naval Architects?

A: Starship Engineers build weapons, Naval Architects build targets.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:55:35 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

>Just think for a second about the kind of storage capacity that was capable 20
>years ago.  A 10 MB hard drive was HUGE!  A 100 MB hard
>drive was outrageously expensive.  A few years later, the capacity went WAY up
>and the price went WAY down.  Nowadays, 36 *GB* hard
>drives can be had for a fraction of the cost of a 100 MB drive 10 years ago.
>Long-sighted corporations that are heavy into R&D (like IBM,
>Bell Labs, TRW (and other military contractors), are even now working on
>'molecular-level' storage solutions, that will make the size and
>capacity of the latest hard drives seem like 1st generation 5.25" floppies in
>comparison.  I'd say that a standard J-4 Xboat would be advanced
>enough to have the storage capacity to hold every piece of data (including
>images) that we have uncovered and/or added to in our history on earth!

People are always extrapolating our current progress as it
is clear this will continue indefinately.  We have no idea
if our current rate of progress isn't anomolous, what
the difficult in advancing the TL's the games have mapped
out is, or if our current culture centered on the concept
of progress for progress' sake will last.  I wouldn't get
too hung up on how fast the Imperium advances.

Beside, a case can be made that if you really want to extrapolte
our current progress, the future will be unlike we can even
imagine in a fairly short periods of time and that _all_
SF is wrong.  If you just put in the rate of increase of
the rate of progress, then you come to what is called "a
technological singularity".

(If most predictions of the future held true we would all
be driving nuclear powered aircars and taking vacations on
the moon... :-)
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 01:55:37 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Fighter Weapons Mounting and Crewing

In your individual and/or collective opinion(s), does a fixed-mount
weapon on a fighter require its own gunner and gunnery station, or is
the pilot the gunner of a fixed-mount weapon?  The answer to this
question will influence the design of the F5A-series heavy fighter,
currently in development by AuricTech Shipyards.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:07:05 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Fighter stuff

Dont forget that PDL lasers still have to lock on to a target to be able to
hit it. Unless you have lots of them simply spraying laser beams everywhere,
lots of gaps!
This does mean that the first thing to hit a missile will be the PDLs
aquisition sensor be it radar, ladar, or EMS.Allowing for time lag the
missile should have time to deploy counter measures such as a chaff or
decoy. Also note that a ship using PDL lasers has to use an active sensor to
acquire its targets, missiles are simply too small and fast for a passive
scan to give a firing solution.
What does using active sensors do to a ship? Say maybe its worth firing a
few missiles just to give a ship and active vessel to train its passives on?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:10:14 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Computer tech in 3I

The Imperial Standard Data Package, sound like a hold over from the old
Vilani empire. Once they reached about TL11 innovation virtually stopped.
Perhaps the Third Imperium was heading the same way?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 03:14:35 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Psionic MOS

In a message dated 99-06-02 02:18:45 EDT, you write:

<< > <<     In the US Army, MOS refers to "Military Occupational Specialty".  
For
 > instance, 11 Bravo would be infantryman.  The existence of a psionic MOS is
 > classified. >>
 
 I maintain that the US Army wouldn't _have_ a "psionic MOS."  ASIs
 (Additional Skill Identifiers) would be found in the intelligence field
 (primarily telepaths, clairvoyants, and precogs).  Other psi talents
 (telekinetics, teleporters, psi-Awares, and "Specials") would probably
 have an SQI (Skill Qualification Identifier), similar to paratroopers
 (P), linguists (L), qualified  military instructors (H), and other
 soldiers with a non-MOS-specific special skill.  (See my previous post
 on psionic interrogators for how ASIs and SQIs are annotated.)

xxxx
Okay, point taken.
xxxx


 > 
 > Hmm, what was the CIA project, Star somthing or other?
 > -Stephen
 
 You may want to reconsider asking questions about this topic, lest the
 Templars (or others of similar ilk) come knocking at your door....  >;-) >>

There was a thing on the World News tonight a LONG time ago about it.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 03:17:24 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff 

In a message dated 99-06-02 02:16:28 EDT, you write:

<< > Thats why you need some sort of system to cancle out the emisions, some 
sort 
 > of generorator that would project an anti sigiture, then you have 
something 
 > that would make some one's day.
 
 You *WANT* the antimissile missiles sucked in by the decoys.  That's what 
 they're designed for!!!!!!
 
 Keven >>

Or you just nullify the sigs from your real ships so that no body can find 
you and you don't need decoys
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:35:09 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Fighter stuff

Has anyone noticed that if you totally destroy a missile at close range the
debris may still strike the ship, it would not matter if the missile was
vaporised or not, it just would keep coming on its last vector. If it
strikes, admittedly a small but possible chance it will pack considerable
kinetic energy 0.5m*v^2 even if the hull was not penetrated it could still
destroy antenna etc. Thus degrading capability.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 03:43:48 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff 

> In a message dated 99-06-02 02:16:28 EDT, you write:
> 
> << > Thats why you need some sort of system to cancle out the emisions, some 
> sort 
>  > of generorator that would project an anti sigiture, then you have 
> something 
>  > that would make some one's day.
>  
>  You *WANT* the antimissile missiles sucked in by the decoys.  That's what 
>  they're designed for!!!!!!
>  
>  Keven >>
> 
> Or you just nullify the sigs from your real ships so that no body can find 
> you and you don't need decoys

The decoys were to fly in front of the main flock of missiles incoming at a 
target.  No ships back there.  They're *WAY* back out of harm's way.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 00:52:11 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: I like missiles!

>From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
>Subject: I like missiles!
.
>    a. Accuracy.  Who says lasers are 100% accurate?  A 1 degree
.

  <ahem> "Let slip the leash of the astronomers of war..."

.
>    d. Decoys.  The acceleration test shouldn't work.  My missile releases a
>dozen globs of super-quick-setting ablative foam with tiny little engines
>and a "follow-me" guidance, which should be difficult to tell apart, as long
>as they basically stay within a KM or so of each other.  All the target sees
>is 12-15 little 10cm circular radiators coming at him.  Just makes things
>more interesting.

  The above restricts the main bus to the same dV as the deployed decoys :(

.
>laser, the Self Forging Fragment?  Basically just a variant on the HEAT
>warhead, you use an explosive charge as a "gun" to fire a slug of metal at
>*VERY* high accelerations.  Much easier than a contact hit, but not as
>deadly as det-lasers.

  An SFF is a rather low velocity weapon for space combat purposes.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 03:01:17 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

On 05/30/99 10:14:22 you wrote:
>
>Thanks to Ian and Jim for your answers on turnover - you are so quick
>responding! Yes, I must have meant revenue, and yes, it certainly does
>put things in perspective...
>
>Next question: is profit as a percentage of revenue correlated with
>company size at all? If Jamison Factors, Oberlindes, Tukera and
>Makhidkarun are all performing averagely for their size, what might
>their %age profit be?

Profitability is not terribly correlated with size.  If you look at publicly traded companies in 
the modern US it tends to be _negatively_ correlated with size because of all the tech start-ups 
and what-not.  Given the slow rate of technical change in the Imperium, this is not likely to be 
the case there.

>Also, could you give me a ballpark figure for maximum sustainable
>profit? I know these things fluctuate wildly. Saying Oberlindes
>generates 90% profit seems ridiculous and 1% seems reasonable, but I'm
>less sure about figures in between - what about 10%, 20% or 50%?

When you say profit as a percent of revenue, people generally call this the "profit margin."  
This is by no means the only measure of profit.  One that is closer to what economists are 
interested in is Return on Investment.  This measures the "profit" (revenue-costs) divided by 
the amount of money invested in the business.  This gives a clearer idea of whether the company 
has been a good investment or not.  This is an important distinction in capital-intensive 
industries.

A reasonable max for Return on Investment is around 10%.  Given that the Imperial economy is 
growing at less than 1%, an ROI of 10% indicates that the company is in a highly "defensible" 
business position and is able to keep prices above what they would be in a competitive market.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 03:07:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re:Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

On 05/30/99 23:27:26 you wrote:
>
>>Also, could you give me a ballpark figure for maximum sustainable
>>profit? I know these things fluctuate wildly. Saying Oberlindes
>>generates 90% profit seems ridiculous and 1% seems reasonable, but I'm
>>less sure about figures in between - what about 10%, 20% or 50%?
>
>I have put the far trader costs & revenues into a spreadsheet and come up with
>profit figures on large optimized ships* in excess of 100%. 
>
>Have I missed something here?  This sounds a little too cosy.

	It certainly sounds like you have missed something but it is impossible for me to tell what 
without more information.  I carefully worked out the freight rates in Far Trader so that they 
would result in reasonable ROIs for various types of ships and strategies.  My guess is that you 
are assuming a 95% loading on a 20,000dton ship and giving yourself the "tramp freight" rate.  
This isn't expressly forbidden by the rules but it is highly unlikely.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 03:27:38 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

At 09:30 PM 6/1/99 PST, you wrote:
>
>Same reason that so many have ships that manuever like aircraft.
>Because that's what people *expect*, not what things are likely to
>*really* be like.

  Some of my favorite space games had real physics. 'Mantis, Elite
Frontiers (Actually had gas giant skimming to refuel), and a few others I
can't remember off hand. They had Missiles that appeared to follow the
rules, and out of a 8 missile load 25% hit ratio was good for me(I'm
actually terrible at flight games, but they are still fun). But you are
right, most people are mislead by the current popular games, but that
doesn't invalidate the use of conventional missiles. As for board games, I
have Brilliant Lances' but find it hard (read impossible) to find anyone
that is remotely interested in playing it. One friend looked at it and
commented that he had lost his slide rule. :)

>> Have you read that cool article in the Challenger
>> mag Called "Lasers in Space combat" In it he talks about all the speed and
>> math stuff saying it's real easy to get a fire resolution with lasers. What
>> is the very difficult part is getting the beam to hit that target.
>
>I haven't seen it, but Bruce (or someone else on the list) *works* with
>lasers and aiming systems (not classified, because they aren't
>weapons). And *he* disagrees. He sees no reason why the techniques he
>uses can't be used with weapons grade lasers. You use the *same*
>optiics for the laser and for it's aiming lidar, so the laser *will*
>hit what it's aimed at. Aiming based on radar will be less accurate,
>but still pretty good.
>

  Ok it's in Challenge #71 on page 26 and is 4 pages long. Written by Frank
Chadwick and David Nilson. Its very good describing how lasers work and he
mentions why DL missiles were introduced. And explains them well. But it
still doesn't make conventional missiles obsolete for me (IMTU I think
that's the right acronym) there just harder to hit with, but have the
potential to do more damage.

>
>The approach angle can't be counted on. The orientation of the ship and
>the direction of travel aren't related.  Even if you are using the main
>drive, your velocity vector and acceleration vector aren't going to
>line up all the time.
>
>All you need to do to make most angles pretty damn useless is spin the
>ship *slowly* about the long axis. With decently placed turrets, that's
>going to give you full sphere coverage. Objects nearer the fore/aft
>axis will be the *easiest* to hit in that they are covered by turrets
>more of the time. objects directly "abeam" will get the least coverage.

  Does abeam mean to the rear? Cause that is where I feel is the weakest
point for any cap ship. Which probably has a really lousy yaw rate due to
its mass.


>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>
>
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 02:01:50 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Fighter Weapons Mounting and Crewing

Black ICE wrote:

> In your individual and/or collective opinion(s), does a fixed-mount
> weapon on a fighter require its own gunner and gunnery station, or is
> the pilot the gunner of a fixed-mount weapon?  The answer to this
> question will influence the design of the F5A-series heavy fighter,
> currently in development by AuricTech Shipyards.
>
> --
> AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
> "Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

IMTU, fixed mounted weapons on a fighter do not require a separate
gunner.  The computer can handle it, or the pilot can manually fire the
weapon if you want to add the pilot's gunnery skill as a DM.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:22:44 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Fighter stuff

Conventional missiles even when fitted with a lot of electronic systems are
likely to be a lot cheaper than a nuclear detonation missile, so there could
also be a lot more of them for those PD lasers to hit, plus all those
decoys, chaff, etc. Things could get very confusing for the poor fire
control computer.

In "Red Storm Rising" an example of a confused PD system is given. Two
missiles are attacking the Nimitz from the same quarter at the same range,
the poor Phalanx system could not decide which to engage so went into reset
mode. Neither missile is engaged and strike the carrier.

Tumbling a ship to bring all PD batteries to bear, interesting, may possibly
work but depending on the ships configuration would it not slow the rate of
fire, and also result in fire control locks having to be rapidly transferred
from weapon to weapon?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 23:12:22 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: MOS Code for Psionic Interrogators

Black ICE wrote:

> Unfortunately, I don't have a current listing of ASIs, so I can't tell
> you what the appropriate one for psionics is.  I'll use an arbitrary
> code of "C5" (for "fivesight", just a little better than foresight) to
> stand for psionics.

Shouldn't that be C2?  "Second Sight"?  ;-)

This could be refined into a more detailed code.
The subcodes aren't really needed since they're
available to anyone with the discipline.

A -  Awareness
  I - Suspended Animation
  II - Psionically-Enhanced Strength
  III - Psionically-Enhanced Endurance
  IV - Regeneration

C - Clairvoyance
  I - Clairaudience
  II - Clairvoyance
  III - Direction
  IV - Sense

K - teleKinesis
  I - Telekinesis

T - Telepathy
  I - Assault
  II - Life Detection
  III - Probe
  IV - Read Surface Thoughts
  V - Send Thoughts
  VI - Shield
  VII - Telempathy

P - telePortation
  I - Teleportation

These, followed by a number indicating skill level could totally summarize
psionic skills.



> Thus, my nine-character MOS, were I a _certified_
> psi talent, would be:
>
>             97E4PC5AE, where--
>
> "97E" is the MOS code;
> "4" is my skill level (this indicates that I am a Sergeant First Class,
> pay grade E7);
> "P" is the Skill Qualification Identifier for "parachutist" (I'm
> qualified to fling my precious, only-one-to-a-customer body out of
> moving aircraft);
> "C5" is our example ASI for psionics;
> "AE" is the two-character language identifier that indicates that I am a
> qualified Arabic-Egyptian dialect linguist.

Adopting some of the ideas here for an 'Extended UPP" might
be very useful.  Especially for Spear-Carrier and NPC handling.
Would it be worth trying to create one?

I'm thinking that some useful categories might be:
race
apparent age
career + rank
possible abbreviated skill codes (e.g., AS1, PL2 - Astrography 1, Pilot 2).


- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 05:37:03 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Psionic MOS

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 99-06-01 23:22:15 EDT, you write:
>
> <<     In the US Army, MOS refers to "Military Occupational Specialty".  For
> instance, 11 Bravo would be infantryman.  The existence of a psionic MOS is
> classified. >>
>
> Hmm, what was the CIA project, Star somthing or other?
> -Stephen

Let me guess whats coming next in this thread:

CIA Remote Viewing.
(Just cutting to the chase).

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #696
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, June 2 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 697



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fighter stuff
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues
Re: Fighter Weapons Mounting and Crewing
Re: Uses for Fighters (longish)
RE: Fighter stuff
[TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Fighter Weapons Mounting and Crewing
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Fighter Weapons Mounting and Crewing 
Re: Linux (was Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues)
Re: Red Square, Comrade?...
Re: Computer tech in 3I
Re: Computer tech in 3I
Re: Computer tech in 3I

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 04:08:07 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

At 09:14 PM 6/1/99 PST, you wrote:

>And it's also a higher TL than is available in even the Third Imperium.
>That's the thing. Traveller is a "hard" SF game. That means there are
>limits that apply to everybody. 
>
>According to design rules, you can't fit a fusion plant into a missile,
>and antimatter isn't available. Thus the limited delta-V for the
>missiles. 

  So having inertial nullifiers (grav compensators) isn't Hi SciFi? And
grav plates? From what I understand from my short time reading this list
some scientists have made 'Anti Matter'. Yet we still don't have a clue as
to what gravity really is. We know its effects, we can measure it, we can
predict, but we can't create it, modify it or control it. 
  Granted I am way out of my league in this part of science, but I would
assume that it would be big news if we could harness gravity (or even
figured out what it really is). Although you are right about the TL for
antimatter, and was a poor example but there are I think still powerful
engines for missiles still.

>
>Since you can't build "thruster plates" small enough for a missile, the
>missile is using a *reaction* drive. And *any* reaction drive that can
>give the standard levels of performance is about as stealthy as a
>magnesium flare.

  Ok I got a fix for that. In the atmosphere we see light from the engines
flare behind or to the sides easily because of the denseness of the
particles in the air. However today fighter jets have the same problem, but
what if you recessed and zigzagged the exhaust ports of the jets engine (as
is done with todays stealthy planes) that would reduce the light and heat
emissions. 
  But in space simply recessing the engine enough to cover its flare (or
whatever it's called) to keep it from being viewed from anywhere but
directly to the rear. Although this would depend on if the engine had any
particle emissions of some kind of its own.

>
>Under *coast*, stealthing is possible. But the trouble is that your
>position and vector are known when you cut the engine. And in space,
>you'll continue along that vector until you hit something or are
>deflected by the gravity of something *big*. So even though you are
>coasting, your position is still known with high accuracy. 

  With special materials and coatings a missile Particularly Radar and
Light absorbing stuff, shaped correctly would even mislead a the most
sophisticated sensor system, and with the recessed engine stealth engine,
and a electronics suite that included light wave and radar emitters.
  BTW I am taking for granted Ladar is high speed multi-beam laser radar?
If it is, it would still have some of the weaknesses of radar, and some of
it's own. It's just that it can be produced at a lower energy cost and be
more easily focused. I think? (BTW I was a Radar technician (not engineer)
for the military before I got out. But that don't mean I know what I am
talking about.)

>If you can manage to be coasting *before* the ship gets inside its
>sensor range, then stealth might let you get close enough to fire up
>your engines *if* you get close enough. But being in the right position
>on anything close to the right vector is going to be sheer luck. 
>
>Though I suspect that this is how "mines" would work. Drifting,
>stealthed missiles that only fire up once you get too close for a miss.

 What I have always thought of as Skip missiles is a missile that runs
silent for awhile and goes active for a brief time in order to get a lock.
Maybe like a milli second or so. Then corrects it's course and runs silent
again.


>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>
>
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 04:16:28 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

At 05:32 PM 5/31/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>I just assume that the operating system, like Windows, chews up most
>increases in hardware efficiency. Any remaining increase is used up by the
>bloated software. The Hivers' real computer advantage is that they don't
>let Microsoft LIC near their computers :-)
>

  Bravo I agree whole hardedly. The MS people touted how much faster Win95
ran over 3.1 or dos. Well thats because they ran it on a machience 3-4
times as fast, and still only gained a 20% increase (Instead of a 300%).


  BTW I would think that like today, different corperations have there own
OS that they work with. But programs would be written in a compatable
language.
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 04:33:54 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Fighter Weapons Mounting and Crewing

At 01:55 AM 6/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>In your individual and/or collective opinion(s), does a fixed-mount
>weapon on a fighter require its own gunner and gunnery station, or is
>the pilot the gunner of a fixed-mount weapon?  The answer to this
>question will influence the design of the F5A-series heavy fighter,
>currently in development by AuricTech Shipyards.
>
>-- 
>AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
>"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

  Well I believe Hi Guard states that each separate weapon needs a gunner
and it says that on fighters they are fixed. But me, I say that if they are
fixed and in the same arc, then the gunner could handle them all, but if
they were in different arcs or one was a turret (which by HG you can't do)
you should need a gunner. But that is how I would run it.

- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:01:45 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Uses for Fighters (longish)

Date sent:      	Wed, 02 Jun 1999 00:52:21 -0500
From:           	Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>

>Having followed the recent "Fighter Stuff" thread, I decided to point
>out some uses for fighters that don't contradict all the arguments
>against their use in attacking capital assets:

You missed one:

7:  Like present day missile and torpedo boats, fighters are useful in
"restricted waters". In places such as gas giants and in low orbit,
fighters can use "cover" to get close enough to launch a devestating
attack. Doubtless there are other examples of "restricted waters" were
fighters would be useful.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 11:05:06 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: RE: Fighter stuff

At 15:35 02/06/1999 +0800, <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com> wrote:
>Has anyone noticed that if you totally destroy a missile at close range the
>debris may still strike the ship, it would not matter if the missile was
>vaporised or not, it just would keep coming on its last vector. If it
>strikes, admittedly a small but possible chance it will pack considerable
>kinetic energy 0.5m*v^2 even if the hull was not penetrated it could still
>destroy antenna etc. Thus degrading capability.

Sure have.

The last time this debate came up, I seem to recall that the end result
was a 100MCr kinetic kill missile that released enough superdense pellets
at 10,000km so that a Tigress at 6G could not evade all of them but would
be severely damaged by a single pellet.

If you every wondered what could be launched by a factor 9 missile bay...

IIRC, the proposed countermeasure was the FS Signature "point defence" laser
with 650MJ, ROF800 and a range of half a million km

The laser costs less than the missile and fits in a standard barbette.
It can destroy lots of missiles using battery power, although the lights
go dim when running off main engines.

Using FF&S2, at TL15, the barbette could include a 500,000km LIDAR and
a factor 9Fib computer for about 20MCr.

Speaking as a Brit, I'm not sure that I'm  happy about the idea of every
freighter that you meet mounting a couple of these for "missile defence".
After all, my free trader costs less than one of those missiles, has less
armour, less manoeuvre and isn't pilotless.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:06:42 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff

On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Joe Kirby wrote:

>>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> Joe Kirby

>  Ok I got a fix for that. In the atmosphere we see light from the engines
>flare behind or to the sides easily because of the denseness of the
>particles in the air. However today fighter jets have the same problem, but
>what if you recessed and zigzagged the exhaust ports of the jets engine (as
>is done with todays stealthy planes) that would reduce the light and heat
>emissions. 
>  But in space simply recessing the engine enough to cover its flare (or
>whatever it's called) to keep it from being viewed from anywhere but
>directly to the rear. Although this would depend on if the engine had any
>particle emissions of some kind of its own.

The problem is not to camuflage the exhaust, but the heat of the exhaust. In
space there is no way of getting rid of heat except to radiate it. A reaction
drive is going to produce heat and that heat has to go somewhere. When the heat
is radiated out, to keep the missile from melting it will stand out as a sore
thumb on every sensor in the vicinity.

Solutions applied on atmospheric missiles and planes simply doesn't cover since
it is not a comperable problem. Space is big, cold and hard to move quickly in.
If you want to change course, you need to spit out some mass and this action is
going to produce heat. Producing heat means that you'll be easily detected. It's
simply the nature of space that makes combat with anything else that
beam-weapons very hard.

>>Under *coast*, stealthing is possible. But the trouble is that your
>>position and vector are known when you cut the engine. And in space,
>>you'll continue along that vector until you hit something or are
>>deflected by the gravity of something *big*. So even though you are
>>coasting, your position is still known with high accuracy. 
>
>  With special materials and coatings a missile Particularly Radar and
>Light absorbing stuff, shaped correctly would even mislead a the most
>sophisticated sensor system, and with the recessed engine stealth engine,
>and a electronics suite that included light wave and radar emitters.

The thing is that if it is using a drive, it will be hot and easily detected by
passive sensors. Once it turns its drive of to hide from these sensors it will
be on a set course that is possible to calculate. I doesn't matter how har it is
to detect by active means at this point, cause you know were it will go, so you
simply stay out of its way. The problem is the heat it produces and simply how
extremly easy it is to detect a hot object in space.

> What I have always thought of as Skip missiles is a missile that runs
>silent for awhile and goes active for a brief time in order to get a lock.
>Maybe like a milli second or so. Then corrects it's course and runs silent
>again.

The problem is that to correct its course it has to be operative for more than
seconds. Changing courses in space cost a lot of power or time. You simply can't
do it without telling everybody were you are.

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 20:57:13 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fighter Weapons Mounting and Crewing

>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Fighter Weapons Mounting and Crewing
>
>In your individual and/or collective opinion(s), does a fixed-mount
>weapon on a fighter require its own gunner and gunnery station, or is
>the pilot the gunner of a fixed-mount weapon?  The answer to this
>question will influence the design of the F5A-series heavy fighter,
>currently in development by AuricTech Shipyards.
>

Gunners are cheap, at about half a ton and half a dton apiece. Where they
give you an advantage is it's easier to get a good pilot and a good gunner
than a good pilot/gunner.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 21:05:46 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

0
>From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
>Subject: RE: Fighter stuff
>
>Dont forget that PDL lasers still have to lock on to a target to be able to
>hit it. Unless you have lots of them simply spraying laser beams everywhere,
>lots of gaps!

PD lasers are part of a layered solution. The other layers include dash
pack missiles carrying nukes and sand.

>This does mean that the first thing to hit a missile will be the PDLs
>aquisition sensor be it radar, ladar, or EMS.Allowing for time lag the
>missile should have time to deploy counter measures such as a chaff or
>decoy. 

Cool. So as soon as our disposable sensor platform's AEMS system lights up
the missile, it deploys it's limited supply of chaff.

>Also note that a ship using PDL lasers has to use an active sensor to
>acquire its targets, missiles are simply too small and fast for a passive
>scan to give a firing solution.

Nope. An accelerating missile will be lit up like a knocking shop on payday.

>What does using active sensors do to a ship? Say maybe its worth firing a
>few missiles just to give a ship and active vessel to train its passives on?

Thats why ships have essentially disposable sensor platforms (one of the
many uses of fighters that dont involve pitting them against military ships).

>From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
>Subject: RE: Fighter stuff
>
>Has anyone noticed that if you totally destroy a missile at close range the
>debris may still strike the ship, it would not matter if the missile was
>vaporised or not, it just would keep coming on its last vector. If it
>strikes, admittedly a small but possible chance it will pack considerable
>kinetic energy 0.5m*v^2 even if the hull was not penetrated it could still
>destroy antenna etc. Thus degrading capability.
>

This is a major reason why Famile Spofulam recommends the use of 600 MJ
point defense lasers.

>Conventional missiles even when fitted with a lot of electronic systems are
>likely to be a lot cheaper than a nuclear detonation missile, so there could
>also be a lot more of them for those PD lasers to hit, plus all those
>decoys, chaff, etc. Things could get very confusing for the poor fire
>control computer.

The problem is is all the bells and whistles are increasing the mass of the
missile, which will reduce it's thrust, which will make it more vulnerable
to counterfile and interception.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 06:26:05 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fighter Weapons Mounting and Crewing 

> At 01:55 AM 6/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >In your individual and/or collective opinion(s), does a fixed-mount
> >weapon on a fighter require its own gunner and gunnery station, or is
> >the pilot the gunner of a fixed-mount weapon?  The answer to this
> >question will influence the design of the F5A-series heavy fighter,
> >currently in development by AuricTech Shipyards.
> 
>   Well I believe Hi Guard states that each separate weapon needs a gunner
> and it says that on fighters they are fixed. But me, I say that if they are
> fixed and in the same arc, then the gunner could handle them all, but if
> they were in different arcs or one was a turret (which by HG you can't do)
> you should need a gunner. But that is how I would run it.

Each battery needs a gunner, plus a chief gunner on big boats.  IMTU, these are called the CWO, or Chief Weapons Officer, sometimes called 'Guns' by skippers passing out the accolades.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:03:10 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Linux (was Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues)

> Somebody came up with a full-tilt Win3.1 emulator called WABI, forget who,
but
> it ran on Linux, and they stopped producing it.

It was Sun, and they produced it for Solaris first. It was damn slow even on
a SPARC workstation.

> There's a new emulator out called VMWare that'll run a *lot* of the Win95
> stuff, too.

Including the ability to run Linux under Windows under Linux if you want to
get really silly, as it's a software emulation of the Wintel hadware running
on all the primary Wintel OSs and I believe also on Mac and Solaris.

> > ObTrav: In the 3I, is there one universal standard computer OS (like
there
> > seems to be in Star Trek, Babylon 5, and other SF universes) or are
there
> > competing OS from which people can pick and choose?
>
> Probably one 'standard' OS that runs emulator software.  Ain't that the
way
> the Vilani would do it?

Nah, alll the chips are intelligent and can learn any OS from the
specs......

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 07:22:35 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Red Square, Comrade?...

Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
> >Where do I get Mayday?
> 
>   Marc Miller still sells Mayday, AFAIK;  <FarFuture@aol.com>

Oh?  For how much?  I have lost most of my original Mayday.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 01:50:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

In mail you write:

>>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>>Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I
> ...
>>Take a long hard look at the advance of computer technology in just the
>>last 30 years...how much stuff is strewn along the roadside, obsolete,
>>and never used. When you can't get your innovations out, and in use
>>rapidly enough for them to become even mild standards, you have chaos,
>>and chaos is bad for business. While the IDP's do stifle innovation
> ...
>
>   I recall hearing the complaint that one of the problems in planning at
> a big telecom was that they couldn't budget adequately for a new system
> because they couldn't begin to guess whether or not it would be obsolete
> in 5 years or twenty.

Contrast that with the old Bell System. They designed things to be
*usable* for 20+ years. The stuff where there was a *need* to upgrade
sooner got shipped to places that could use it (ie it was better than
what they had, and due to the durability it was both worth buying *and*
worth selling). There's phone gear in some places in Africa and Asia
that that's been thru *5* such moves, starting out in big cities in the
US, migrating to smaller ones, and then finally to the third world. And
given decent maintenance, it could still be running a century from now.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 01:58:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

In mail you write:

>   I'm not worried so much about formats... the comm protocol is what's
>   important.  What I'm curious about is storage *capacity*.  Just how much
>   info gets carted around on an Xboat?

I figure that rates will be based on the *compressed* size of the data.
Which means that pre-compressing your data (or encrypting it) may carry
a hefty surcharge simply because that means that the compression
algorithms of the Xboat system can't do as much with it.

Try compressing a file with some "so-so" compression algorithm, such as
ARC, then compress that with ZIP or RAR. Then compress the original
file with ZIP or RAR. The second file will be a *lot* smaller. Do this
with a *bunch* of files, and use RAR in "solid" format (where the
compression tables carry over from one file to the next) and the
difference gets *really* big.

But since it's impractical to compress the stuff and *then* give a rate
(plus, that effectively punishes you if you develop better compression
algorithms). So I expect that traffic will be divided into categories
based on how well they are willing to *admit* to being able to compress
various types of data.

Well, text is still text. Plain text in "unicode" or the equivalent
will be the cheapest, and compress really well. Hypertext will be
bulkier and thus more expensive. Anything that hypertext/unicode can't
handle gets sent as a graphics image.

Now, assuming that other races aren't *that* much more sensitive than
we are, sound and data formats are likely predictable. "CD quality"
audio is "good enough" for anything short of esoteric research. The
number of channels of audio *may* be more of a variable. So the low end
is 64kbps audio (like a phone line) which gets 8-bit samples at
something like 8 kHz (I'd have to check my notes for exact figures).
High end is CD quality (16-bit samples, 44 kHz sample rate, 2 or more
channels). 

Graphics range from low-res fax (monochrome, 48 dpi or so) on up to
"photo quality" (16 million colors(?) at a few thousand dpi). 

The final category would be "generic binary". That covers anything not
"text", "sound" or "graphics". And it gets charged the highest rate as
it's assumed to be not very compressible.

BTW, the bottleneck with x-boats is *not* storage. It's I/O. Getting
all that data onto and off of the X-boat. Contrary to what we've been
told, the traffic *isn't* sent via radio/laser to the tender as it's
rendezvousing with the x-boat. There's not enough *bandwidth* to do so
in a reasonable amount of time. Assuming *perfect* conditions you get
*one* channel with terabit bandwidth for the laser, and a much lower
bandwidth channel or channels in the microwave range. You can't use
multiple lasers because they'll interfere with each other due to beam
spread at the ship.

So instead the really *high* priority messages will get sent, then some
of the well compressed unimportant stuff.

Once the x-boat docks, they hook up the data transfer cable. Picture
something with anywhere from dozens to *hundreds* of fiber optic
channels, running at terabit rates. It runs faster because you've got
so many channels running in parallel.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 22:08:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

In mail you write:

>>Again, exactly. While this system _does_ stifle rapid tech advancement,
>>it does promote a stable Imperium.
>
> But what *regulates* this growth?  What keeps pockets of innovation from
> running wild with new designs?  

You mean the designs that the library shows didn't work out 3 sectors
over and 200 years ago?

Unless they are the start of a new TL, they've almost certainly been
thought of *somewhere* in the centuries that the current TL has been in
existence.

The point you are missoing is that short of a new TL, you only get
*marginal* performance increases. Which isn't enough to justify being
non-standard. 

>>> business in the technical world means getting your designs to market as
>>> quickly as possible.
>
>>Business in the Technical world Here and Now, yes it does.
>
> And this implies that the Future, by virtue of simply not being Now, works
> by different rules of economics?

It implies that you are drawing the wrong lesson.

>>And the point is? In a system where it takes years for an 'upgrade' to
>>filter out far enough to be widely used, I think you are seriously
>>overestimating the value of technological innovation. 
>
> My point is, *why the heck are you waiting years for an upgrade when you can
> develop your own faster?* 

> If someone developed a jump drive that somehow shortens travel time to one
> day, and your competitor was using it... would you wait for it to filter
> down through the IDP, or would you start buying it directly from the
> manufacturer and using it as soon as possible?  

Again, you've just described a change in TL. For that, you upgrade. But
do you replace your current car with a new one just because it gets 40
mpg instead of 39? Not until your old one *needs* replacing, or you've
got some other *compelling* reason. 

>>Bluntly you're looking at it through eyes colored by a) instant
>>communications, b)near instant travel time  and c) that common habit of
>>low-tl cultures, thinking that we're the acme of innovation.
>
> No, I'm looking at it quite plainly.
>
>>Take a long hard look at the advance of computer technology in just the
>>last 30 years...how much stuff is strewn along the roadside, obsolete,
>>and never used. When you can't get your innovations out, and in use
>
> Are you're saying that we should quit developing new stuff so that old stuff
> doesn't be come obsolete so fast?

No, we are saying that the rate of development is going to slow down.
It'll get harder to find things that haven't been tried before. 

>>rapidly enough for them to become even mild standards, you have chaos,
>>and chaos is bad for business. While the IDP's do stifle innovation
>
> If chaos is bad for business, why does Microsoft corrupt every "standard" to
> its own uses, violating the standards and attempting to create their own?
> (Because it works, unfortunately.) 

No, because they got lucky and wound up in control of a majority of the
market. So they pull (illegal!) stunts like that to try to keep the
market from being *able* to change without writing off huge
investments. 

>>model, this week SEVEN mutually incompativble computer architectures
>>ahve arrived in the marketplace from seven different sectors. All of
>>them are new all of them are advertised as this weeks bees knees.
>
>>You're the chief information systems analyst for Glisten Starships LLC,
>>and you have to decide which one is going to become the standard in your
>>new line of container freighter ships, a line you conservatively
>>estimate will be in production for a hundred fity to three hundred
>>years.
>
> Why are we planning on producing the same model for over a hundred years?
> Why won't my competitor have something better well within twenty?  Why won't
> *I* have something better in twenty?  Are we so far out there on the curve
> that there's nothing new to invent?  Evidence of the Ancients implies that
> we have much to learn. 

Sure, but until you get the fundamental breakthrough(s) that asllow you
to move up a tech level, you quickly find the limits of your current
TL. The more worlds you have, the faster they'll explore all the
possibilities. 

>>What do you specify: one of the 7 new things to come along _this_ week,
>>or the IDP, the standard you know is spread throughout the Imperium,
>>parts available, fixes appliable?
>
> Depends on the cost/risk of implementing something new vs its benefits.
> What kind of an edge am I going to get by using one of these new things?
> How much benefit is there compared to going with the tried and true IDP
> systems?  Show me how my company can use your new system to get an edge over
> my competitor and that the risk is acceptable, and I'll buy your system in a
> heartbeat. 
>
> I just did that very thing in my own company.  I bought a Windows NT product
> for a HP-UX-only shop, and am putting NT workstations on certain people's
> desktop, despite its incompatibility with all of the other workstations,
> because that one product is far superior to anything we've been able to find
> on HP-UX.  It's costing us in hardware/software purchase, retraining, and
> time integrating datasets (because we have to take data from the HP's to the
> NT's and back to the HP's smoothly).  But the drawbacks were outweighed by
> cost.  
>
> Your argument implies that the cost of innovation is always outweighed by
> the stability of standardization.  This can't always be true. 

True. But short of a change in TL, things will quickly become well
enough explored that standards *will* emerge. 

>>It isn't enforced, any more than (more or less) the Wintel standard is
>>'enforced' today, ie: by the marketplace. MicroSloth _does_ break the
>
> And the guy in the cube next to me is using a computer that's not compatible
> with mine.  And in my own cube, I have two screens... one is a computer, the
> other is a smart-terminal that connects to a server that's incompatible with
> the computer in my cube.  And that server is incompatible with the server
> sitting right next to it in the lab, and incompatible with the server next
> to it, which is incompatible with the next server over.  All in all, I'm
> running five different, *incompatible* servers sitting in the same room.
> And that's in the same *room*, in the same building, on the same continent,
> on the same planet, in the same system, where communication is
> instantaneous.   While they'll all talk nice to each other, I need different
> parts from different vendors to upgrade or repair any of them. 

> Now how do you imagine that spreading out across the galaxy, with
> communication delays of weeks and months, is going to *improve* this
> problem?

The comm lag doesn't help. 

But consider this. Back in the early 80s there were *hundreds* of disk
formats. And *four* different kinds of "3 inch" disks, all *physically*
incompatible. More recently, there were 5 or 6 (maybe more) hard disk
interfaces. MFM, RLL, ESDI, SCSI, IDE. Now it's shaken out to just SCSI
and IDE (with various improved versions of each). Heck, even many of
your "incompatible" computers probably use SCSI drives.

Given a century or so with no TL changes, and things will have *really*
shaken out. 

>>rules (and, figuratively, a bunch of kneecaps) keeping alternate systems
>>out of the mainstream market, but on the whole, the reason that there
>>are so many wintel systems in the world is that, on the main, that's
>>pretty much what everybody else uses. The IDP will be the same way.
>
> That's pretty much what every *home* user and every office-work machine
> uses. Wander away from games, spreadsheets and wordprocessors, and you
> quickly get into variously incompatible VMS, Unix, OS/400, etc. machines.  

I know for a *fact* that I could take a hard drive from a VAX and use
it on my home system. I'd just have some trouble getting it
re-formatted and re-partitioned. 

>>The big value of Linuix (and Open Systems) is that changes can be
>>implemented readily, by anyone. In a world of instantaneous
>>communication, those changes can be rapidly spread through the installed
>>base, but in the main, those changes can be applied to just about any
>>version.
>
> Which is part of my point.  In a single system, you can still have this kind
> of innovation going on.  I'm starting to picture relative run-away
> technology in individual systems, while the starship network becomes more
> and more dated because it can't afford to move away from standardization.
> (There's still an incredible amount of stuff to do with technology that
> won't affect or be affected by an interstellar society.)

But again, your "runaway innovation" *requires* frequent TL changes.
Which the official background says *don't* happen. If it'd taken 200
years to get from tubes to transistors, I bet that tubes would have
gotten *really* standardized. Heck, as it was we went ahead and
invented the tube equivalent of ICs to deal with EMP back in the late
50s and early 60s. It's been abandonerd since, but it was pretty
amazing for what it was. Tubes the size of a dime that *couldn't* burn
out. Entire subsystems (ie multiple cards and a card cage) built into a
ceramic "brick". 

>>The IDP is the ultimate Open Source. You have the entire source code to
>>everything from software packages to starship designs, with the rules on
>>how they interact. A lot of innovatiopn is possible there, but due to
>>the nature of the Imperium, it's spread and acceptance are going to be
>>glacially slow by our standards....
>
> Problem is, when you've got the source *right here*, are you going to wait
> *years* to get changes that you can implement yourself in only weeks?  I see
> this leading to my patch, your patch, his patch, her patch, everywhere a
> patch-patch.  We'd try to keep things compatible, of course... but at some
> point, in some field, there have got to be a place where abandoning some
> compatibility is going to get some benefit that's worth it.  And the moment
> that happens, big business will latch onto it and put it in the field.  If
> the field is interstellar, maybe it'll mean putting spare parts on the ship,
> or going out of your way to push a parts distribution through the system to
> support your ships, over-engineering the part so failure is very unlikely,
> or just living with being stranded if it comes to that... but if the
> *benefit* is large enough, it can outweigh the cost.  

Sure, but you've just described a TL change. So things get a bit hairy
when a new TL is discovered. But given the number of systems that can't
afford to retool from "tubes" to "transistors/ICs" right away, and all
the old gear that works ok, support for the *older* stuff will persist
for a long, long time. A TL-15 starport will likely at least have
records of stuff clear back to TL-8, TL-10 for sure.

Consider an 1890s steamship pulling into a modern day shipyard for
repairs/overhaul. They may have to hand blueprints for some of the
parts to someone to scan into the computer-controlled machine tools to
fabricate some of the parts, but it'll be doable. 

And consider what happens right here on earth with some "obsolete" hig
tech gear. For a long time, when a phone company upgraded their phone
switch from the old electro-mechanical clunker that'd probably last a
century given decent maintenance to a fancy new electronic switch, the
old switch was crated up and shipped to some third world country where
they were trying to get by with manual switchboards. 

Likewsise, when your world decides it can afford the move from TL 12 to
TL 13 in some industry, the old tooling will quyite likely be sold to
some TL11 world that wants to upgrade thatr industry to TL 12. 

>>This doesn't mean that the Imperium is a stunted, backwards place...what
>>it means is that it's big...really, really mind-bogglingly big. 
>
> Yep... mind-bogglingly big.  Which is why I find it highly unlikely that
> something that *big* can have something that *standard* across the whole of
> it. 

Because *major* innovations occur infrequently enough that there's time
for the technology to stabilize. And a *lot* of worlds are at lower
tech levels for various reasons, so when they upgrade, it's likely to
be to the "best" of a new TL, not the "pre standards" stuff. 

>>The Imperial Data Package contains designs from TL-9 on up. There are
>>9126 worlds in the Imperium TL-9 or greater, with a combined population
>>of about 4 x10^13 people.
>
>>That's 40 TRILLION people. 
>
> 40 TRILLION people... many of which are capable of making improvements to
> the system on their own.  What keeps them from doing so?  What happens when
> I invent some new technology here, set up a standard for it, and start
> selling it to neighboring systems... I'm not incompatible, because it's
> totally new and I'm the only place to get it.  But at the same time, someone
> across the way has created the same technology, except he's using entirely
> different protocols.  By the time our designs make it to the IDP committees
> (I can' t use that word without hearing it in Queen Amidala's voice) we've
> got established customer bases and somebody has to sort the mess out.  Or
> not.  If our two realms never (or rarely) meet, it might not even be a
> problem.  

But the situation is different than the way you are picturing it. If
some third world country wanted to computerize *now* they won't be
using MFM or ESDI drives. Those were losers in the marketplace.

>>It takes a long time for advancments to move around that many worlds and
>>that many people.
>
> But you seem to imply that advancements are only going to go to that many
> worlds through the IDP, and that nobody is going to use it until it's in the
> IDP.  The advancements are going to *start* in all of those worlds.  Many of
> them simultaneously, many of them at odds with what's already in the IDP,
> but still beneficial or commercially viable.  Companies aren't going to want
> to wait months or even years for a design to get into the IDP when they're
> ready to put units in the field right now. 

A TL-9 world is in contact (even if at some remove) with worlds all the
way up to TL-15 (and possibly 16). 

This means that the whole picture is very skewed. By adding in the
tranport times, and the likelihood that you get charged extra if you
are importing TL 12 gear and trying to pay for it with TL-9 products,
you can't *afford* the highest TL for many things.

Instead, you'll pay the premium for *some* high TL gear and sufficient
supplies of spare parts. But for anything in *common* use, it's going
to be mostly at the TL you can support with *local* industry.

Over the *millenia* that civilization has been around, what can be
supported at a given TL has been pushed to the limit. That is, for a
given set of factories & tooling, the "improvements" were thought of
*somewhere* centuries ago. If you *do* come up with a new trick, it'll
be both a rare thing, and likely an incremental improvement. 

So for all TLs up to "common interstellar", the IDP lists things that
have been "tinkered with" for *centuries*. Which means that there
*can't* be the sort of innovation you are thinking of. It's *already*
been done, usually long, long ago. 

The higher TLs will have more room for the sort of thing you are
thinking of. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #697
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, June 2 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 698



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues
Neat little resource
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues 
Re: Linux (was Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues) 
Re: Psionic MOS
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
Re: Linux (was Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues) 
Re: I like missiles
Re: Satellites as Main Worlds
Re: I like missiles!
Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
RE: Fighter stuff
Re: Missiles Declaration (was RE: Fighter stuff) (long)
Re: Computer tech in 3I

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:16:49 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

> > I just wish Linux were more mature as a desktop OS ...

Hah ! it's far more mature than any other desktop OS currently available.
Remember, the core concepts of Linux were in place before the Mac or the PC
existed.

It's only drawbacks for home use are the fact that it doesn't run the
Microsoft Office suite or the latest 3D games.
(it's actually easier getting old DOS games to run under Linux than it is to
get them to work under Win 95/98 )

> It's certainly getting there, closer every day.  I just got through
installing
> SuSe 6.1 on a virgin HD.  I was a bit miffed at all the *JUNK* it wanted
to
> put on, and sendmail *still* isn't the easiest thing in the world to
configure
> and deal with, but the KDE interface is intriguing, and GIMP *finally*
works
> correctly for me now.

LinuxConf makes it real simple to do just about anything without openeing
vi, and why do you need sendmail if you've got KDE ? I just set the KDE mail
client to point to my POP/SMTP server and away it went.
<grin>

> FWIW, I usually use Red Hat 4.x, and will probably end up going back to
Red
> Hat 6.0 Real Soon Now.  IMNSFBHO, a Linux system that *needs* 5 CDs to
> *install* is a bit much, but it's got *everything* anybody could
concieveably
> want...

Pardon ? I installed RH6.0 a week ago off of a single CD, including Corel's
Word Perfect

BTW, it was the simplest install I've ever done since DOS 6.0,  just needed
me to tell it the refresh rate of the monitor, everything else worked
straight out of the box, easier than a Win 98 install.

It took me longer to find a copy of a freeware NFS daemon for NT so I could
access my NT Server's data discs from the Linux workstation.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 04:44:41
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Neat little resource

If you're like me, and have troulbe naming NPCs and characters, surf out to:

http://home.austin.rr.com/rradmin/starwars/

and play with the Star Wars Name Generator.

I came out as Berdo Dosan.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 07:45:18 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues 

> 
> > > I just wish Linux were more mature as a desktop OS ...
> 
> Hah ! it's far more mature than any other desktop OS currently available.
> Remember, the core concepts of Linux were in place before the Mac or the PC
> existed.
> 
> It's only drawbacks for home use are the fact that it doesn't run the
> Microsoft Office suite or the latest 3D games.
> (it's actually easier getting old DOS games to run under Linux than it is to
> get them to work under Win 95/98 )

Applix or Star Office work as well as Microsoft Office.
 
> > It's certainly getting there, closer every day.  I just got through
> installing
> > SuSe 6.1 on a virgin HD.  I was a bit miffed at all the *JUNK* it wanted
> to
> > put on, and sendmail *still* isn't the easiest thing in the world to
> configure
> > and deal with, but the KDE interface is intriguing, and GIMP *finally*
> works
> > correctly for me now.
> 
> LinuxConf makes it real simple to do just about anything without openeing
> vi, and why do you need sendmail if you've got KDE ? I just set the KDE mail
> client to point to my POP/SMTP server and away it went.
> <grin>

Hmmmmmmmm.  I'm not *too* up on KDE yet; haven't played with it for more than 
30 minutes or so; I'm an FVWM2 man myself.  *grin*  My usual mail tool is 
exmh.  Different perversions for different folks, I guess...
 
> > FWIW, I usually use Red Hat 4.x, and will probably end up going back to
> Red
> > Hat 6.0 Real Soon Now.  IMNSFBHO, a Linux system that *needs* 5 CDs to
> > *install* is a bit much, but it's got *everything* anybody could
> concieveably
> > want...
> 
> Pardon ? I installed RH6.0 a week ago off of a single CD, including Corel's
> Word Perfect

SuSe 6.1 comes with *5* install CDs.  And you gotta *change* them.  A *LOT*.  
Minimal install of a SuSe is about 900 megs; a bit on the hefty side, 
IMNSFBHO.  And the directory setup is a touch weird for me; I've *NEVER* seen 
an /opt directory til I got SuSe.  I *know* Red Hat is only 1 CD; I've got 
serious history with Red Hat.  <grin>
 
> BTW, it was the simplest install I've ever done since DOS 6.0,  just needed
> me to tell it the refresh rate of the monitor, everything else worked
> straight out of the box, easier than a Win 98 install.

I've never installed Win98, though I've done a few Win95's in my time as well 
as RH 3.03's & 4.1's.
 
> It took me longer to find a copy of a freeware NFS daemon for NT so I could
> access my NT Server's data discs from the Linux workstation.

Never played with Win-Not Today, so my opinion is worse than useless on it.  
But the main reason I switched providers to Earthlink was that my old ISP, 
Glass City, ran on NT Server, and at *LEAST* 6 times a week, their Ascend 
terminal flat out refused to start PPP for me.  I was even more unthrilled 
when their miserable excuses for 'customer service' and 'technical support' 
tried telling me that that *NEVER* happened, and *all* the 'problems' I was 
having every now and again would automagically disappear the instant I 
installed Win9x.  I called Earthlink that afternoon, and except for them 
being spamblocked from a good many email sites I'd like access to and some 
trouble uploading my web pages at the start, I've been fairly happy with them.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 04:51:27
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Linux (was Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues) 

Just as a short note, one of the most popular events at BayCon was the
Linux install fest.  For four hours, manical Linux freaks installed RedHat
on any computer that walked through the door, free of charge.  You could
bring one of the commercial releases with all the bells and whistles, or
they had the bare bones systems avalible.

Very popular, and after four hours there was still a line.

It was, of course, held in a windowless room...
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 04:57:09
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Psionic MOS

At 10:30 PM 6/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>    In the US Army, MOS refers to "Military Occupational Specialty".  For
>instance, 11 Bravo would be infantryman.  The existence of a psionic MOS is 
>classified.

No, no, no.. Psionic training is mandatory for E-8s, and takes place at the
First Sergeant Academy.

"BERRY!  I *know* you think you're slinking off before 1700! Fine with me,
'cause I also *know* you won't mind pulling CQ Saturday.."  -1SG Dollar, 1985.

- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 23:00:21 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

>From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>Subject: RE: Fighter stuff
>

>IIRC, the proposed countermeasure was the FS Signature "point defence" laser
>with 650MJ, ROF800 and a range of half a million km

RoF 800 is a shot every 2.5 seconds btw. And at TL13, so it's obsolescent
for the IN.

>
>The laser costs less than the missile and fits in a standard barbette.
>It can destroy lots of missiles using battery power, although the lights
>go dim when running off main engines.

You forgot the bad taste in the air from diverting power from life support.
Oh, and the artificial gravity probably gets switched off. And you can just
*forget* about that running jump.

>
>Using FF&S2, at TL15, the barbette could include a 500,000km LIDAR and
>a factor 9Fib computer for about 20MCr.

At TL15, advances in accumulator technology probably mean you can fit 2
into a 6 dton barbetter. Nahh, just up the output to a round gigajoule.

>
>Speaking as a Brit, I'm not sure that I'm  happy about the idea of every
>freighter that you meet mounting a couple of these for "missile defence".
>After all, my free trader costs less than one of those missiles, has less
>armour, less manoeuvre and isn't pilotless.

What ? We *won* the appeal against the Min Commerce ruling that stopped
civilians buying the 650 MJ Signature class ?

Ian Whitchurch
Personal Assistant for
Ms Ditzammer Spofulam
Executive Vice President
Famile Spofulam

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 10:07:30 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

Dave Nelson wrote:

>And people have been giving ME all kinds of grief because I think 
>that money is an important part of a campaign.

It was fun to watch :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 13:09:08 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

>Jump masking *adds* 30.6 hours per jump to the average trip, at each end.
>You should use 110 hours = ((30.6 + 5.5) hours / sqrt(0.43)) * 2. There's a
>reason for using 1g freighters...

Well, I was a bad boy and didn't use your figures. I tried to work it from first
principles using Earth/Sol as the base - I probably got it wrong.

Sol 100 D = 140 Mkm = max jump mask. I reasoned Earth was masked nearly 50% of
the time and that the average mask was 70% of max mask (using trig). 

Max mask = 100 hrs at .43 G
Avg mask = 35 hrs at .43G (50% of 70% of 100)

So 70 hours per jump average masking.

I have downloaded the masking stuff from your web page, and I will analyze it.

>Breakbulk cargo (the only kind that will fit in turrets) loads and
>unloads at 30 dtons per hour. Assuming 600 dtons in turrets, that's
>(14032/264 + 600/30) * 0.95 * 2  = 139.0 hours to unload and load again.

1) I don't believe unloading rate isn't scalable. I assumed the figures were for
a free trader with a single hold & single access point.  The mega-freighter at
the back of FT says it has multiple holds that unload independently. I assumed
this was to get around this limit. I was assuming I could do likewise.  FT also
suggests that scheduled freighters have very low port time. 

2) The empty turrets only add only a tiny amount to profitability. 
   I will remove them.

> You assumed 95% loading: KCr15,012.4

OOPS. Bug in spreadsheet. Fixed.

>Crew members receive a minimum of Cr800 per month (p. GT107); the average is 
>more like Cr1,200 per month. Salaries are at least KCr432 per year,
>and KCr648 is more realistic.

OK corrected. I was using 1500 per month average. But not a major cost.

>Assuming unrefined fuel is available for purchase; refueling operations
>will require 40.7 hours, which is within the port time. If unrefined fuel
>has to be skimmed, time in-system increases enormously. FT included refined
>fuel in its freight rate calculations.

Isn't refuel time scalable for larger ships?

I was not assuming skimming which takes way too much time, and this ship is USL
anyway.

OK I will use refined fuel and throw away the fuel processors, for the purposes
of this thread.

What is the official line on the availability of unrefined fuel post Far Trader?

>>    400.5  Berthing & Starport fee
>This assumes that the freight is carried for some other owner, so wharfage
>and handling tariffs do not apply. This is okay for a pure shipping
>company, but should be corrected for megacorporate operations. The freight
>rates in FT were set with both wharfage and freight handling included.

I will have to investigate, though I was assuming a pure shipping company.

>If, on the other hand, your loading is only 65% (typical in the real
>world), <snip>

I was using the figure from the sidebar in Far Trader which said 95%.

However jump masking time should go down as loading decreases as you can
accelerate faster. I will build this into the model.

> You should probably consider amortizing losses in your figures. <snip of figures>

Agreed. I was looking for a canon value for insurance/loss premium. 
I will use 3%. Ouch that hurts.

>>  Having empty turrets increases profitability.
>At the expense of increased loading time.

Removed.

>> Optimal m-drive size comes out at around 0.4 Gees (trade off of cargo
>> space v  more jumps per year). 
>I'm not sure about this -- 1g came out close enough to optimal when I was
>doing the analysis.

I will redo the masking figures and double check my sums.

>>  You could stay less time in port, increasing profitability.

>At the cost of handling premiums, which will have to be paid by the ship
>owner no matter who owns the cargo.

I will pay them.

>All the example starships in FT have sufficient seats in small craft for
>all crew and passengers. As a GM, I would consider a ship that didn't meet
>that standard uninsurable, but YMMV.

I have added a 10DT ships boat with enough seats.

Preliminary Result: 22.1 Jumps/year 

without loss premium: 79% Profit at 95% loading, break-even 65% loading.

with loss premium: 23% profit. break-even 81% loading. i.e. Not Good.

OK. Got to reduce port time.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 08:15:05 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Linux (was Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues) 

> Just as a short note, one of the most popular events at BayCon was the
> Linux install fest.  For four hours, manical Linux freaks installed RedHat
> on any computer that walked through the door, free of charge.  You could
> bring one of the commercial releases with all the bells and whistles, or
> they had the bare bones systems avalible.
> 
> Very popular, and after four hours there was still a line.
> 
> It was, of course, held in a windowless room...

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 23:26:22 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: I like missiles

>From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
>Subject: I like missiles!
>
>OK, here is my brief hand-wave for missiles:
>
>1.  Lasers aren't as good as everyone seems to think.  The basics of the
>"PDL must win" argument miss 3 very important factors:
>
>    a. Accuracy.  Who says lasers are 100% accurate?  A 1 degree
>innaccuracy, at 100 km, is a miss- oh my god, I can't remember the @#$%
>formula.  Could someone please remind me?  Anyway, there are quite a few
>good arguments to suggest that a laser will be off-target by some amount-
>vibration, calibration, "inherent accuracy"- even recoil, if a gaseous media
>is used.
>

If this is true, you can *never* hit anything at any sort of range
whatsoever. You have to have phenomenal accuracy to get combat ranges out
to the 300 000km plus that Traveller has always assumed.

Anyway, lasers are that accurate today ...

>    b. Computation/aiming  time. It seems to be taken for granted that a
>defending ship is always using its full active sensor suite to detect and
>cook incoming missiles, and that its ladar has multiple channels that switch
>targets intantaneously.  It also assumes that targetting information has no
>processing time, and that the PDL needs no time to track the target.
>

Assume engagement range is 1000 km, and missiles are going at 10 km/second.
We have lots of time to resolve them. Note that we have to use *a* active
sensor suite, not neccessarily ours - a fighter will do nicely to be lit up
and die form those nasty spinal mounts.

We dont neccessarily need multi-switching LADARs. I dont know about anyone
else, but my standard Signature barbette has it's own LADAR.

>    c. Missile evasion.  First of all, if a missile with a diameter of 10cm
>evades 22cm by the time the laser arrives, then the laser needs to saturate
>an area of 1520 cm2, looking for a target of only 79 cm2 (BTW, I am geometry
>challenged, but I'm sure someone will let me know if I've goofed on my
>math).

How many gees does it have to be pulling to evade 22 cm at 1000 km (0.03
light seconds) ?

>  What is the beam diameter of an average PDL, and remember, unless it
>delivers all of its energy simultaneously, there will be a "footprint", not
>a clean punch through. Assuming a 1cm beam, it looks like 19 shots will be
>required- if the PDL can fire that many times at once, as otherwise, the
>area to be soaked expands fast enough that a new fire solution is better.

20 shots will be 50 seconds with a Signature class. How many km per second
are these missiles going again ?

>
>    d. Decoys.  The acceleration test shouldn't work.  My missile releases a
>dozen globs of super-quick-setting ablative foam with tiny little engines
>and a "follow-me" guidance, which should be difficult to tell apart, as long
>as they basically stay within a KM or so of each other.  All the target sees
>is 12-15 little 10cm circular radiators coming at him.  Just makes things
>more interesting.

Tiny engines wont put out enough newtons to serve any purpose whatsoever.
And if they do, stuff the decoy tactic - just run em into the enemy.

>
>
>OK, just my Cr.02.  As you can tell, I LIKE missiles, old CT ones, TNE ones,
>all of 'em.  BTW, has anyone thought about a variant of the chemical det
>laser, the Self Forging Fragment?  Basically just a variant on the HEAT
>warhead, you use an explosive charge as a "gun" to fire a slug of metal at
>*VERY* high accelerations.  Much easier than a contact hit, but not as
>deadly as det-lasers.

Nope. If you accelerate it to, say, 20 km per second, then it still means
you have to get entirely too close for it to work. If you insist, use a
fusion gun (1).

I like conventional missiles too. Missiles with buckets of ball bearings
are excellent weapons against civilians, and make great anti-missile
weapons too (Missiles Dont Shoot Back). Little Bubba, the infamous t-plate
powered, highly stealthed KKM submunition carrying monster, was a wonderful
design.

I just havent seen any evidence that they are actually useful in line of
battle in the Traveller universe.

Ian Whitchurch

(1) Any rumours that FS is designing a Meson Gun warhead for a missile are
false and should be ignored.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:36:58 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Satellites as Main Worlds

In a message dated 5/28/99 11:54:50 AM Central Daylight Time, 
dasmart@lucent.com writes:

<< all "canon" references to main worlds which have been
 defined by GDW/DGP as a satellite around another
 planet/gas giant.
  >>

Regina is a satellite of a gas giant.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 13:39:45 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: I like missiles!

At 20:29 01/06/1999 -0700, "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com> wrote:
>OK, here is my brief hand-wave for missiles:
>
>1.  Lasers aren't as good as everyone seems to think.  The basics of the
>"PDL must win" argument miss 3 very important factors:
>
>    a. Accuracy. <snip>

It always hits, apparently. Don't ask me, I'm only a failed astrophysicist,
I speak only of the astronomer who responds after me, whose mere operational
parameters I am unworthy to calculate. ;-)

>    b. Computation/aiming time. <snip>

Everything you ask is assumed or stated somewhere in the rules. Probably
FF&S. I would agree that detecting probable missile launch would cause
a ship to go active before the missiles were inside 100,000km.
This could be an advantage to the firing ship if it stays passive.

>    c. Missile evasion.  First of all, if a missile with a diameter of 10cm
>evades 22cm by the time the laser arrives, then the laser needs to saturate
>an area of 1520 cm2, looking for a target of only 79 cm2

You sums are probably correct. Unfortunately they are wrong.

Firstly, a 10cm sphere is very small for a missile with the power to
pull 6G continuously for three hours (a standard 6G6 missile).

If it is 10cm diameter and a metre long, like a small sidewinder, it is
still too small and if it only presents its diameter towards me, its only
possible acceleration is towards me, which I can ignore, so your
evasion distance is about 0cm.

For maximum evasion, you have to turn sideways on and now you have to evade
by 50cm.

>    d. Decoys. <snip>

Perfectly valid solution, but remember the requirements for endurance
and acceleration if they are to match the main missile. The sums are
that you might as well fire more missiles.

There's nothing wrong with liking missiles. TL9 ships with TL9 lasers
and no computing power will suffer.

TL15 battlewaggons seem to just ignore them, so whilst they can be a useful
addition to a couple of fighters for customs work, they don't justify
deploying hundreds of fighters in a battle with no role, which was (IIRC)
where this particular thread started.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 23:49:30 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

>From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
>Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
>
>Ship Design: GTL 10, 20000 DT USL, 100 DR, 200 turrets (empty), Command
Bridge,
>Engineering, 40 Utility, 927 Manouver, 600 Jump, 4000 Fuel, 15 Fuel
Processors,
>45 Staterooms, Cargo 14632 (including turret spaces).

Dump the fuel processors :)

>Delivery strategy & Economic Parameters:
>
>Cargo transfer from Highport/Orbit to Highport/Orbit. 

Note the impact of the boneheaded decision by David Pulver to charge 20% of
ship volume for streamlining. This utterly stupid decision meant that the
only economic starship designs were unstreamlined - as a quick example,
make a Far Trader unstreamlined, and it's cargo capacity roughly doubles.

Honestly, it's nearly as bad as the silly distance DMs for GT starship
combat, which then had to compensated for by the +10 'point defense
modifier' to stop contact missiles being dominant.

>95% loading.
>70 Hours Manouvering per Jump (transfer from source orbit/highport to Jump
point
>& destination jump point to highport/orbit - assuming average jump masking)
>60 hours in port (probably too long - I used 48 hours in the original
posting)
>28.3 Jumps per year (from above)
>
>Revenue/Jump: 15290.42 KCr (14632 Cargo at Cr550 per Parsec minus Cr20 per
jump 
>lighterage fees.) Cr550 is around the mid-price quoted in Far trader for
liners. 

Nope. You wont get both Cr 550 a parsec and 95% loading. If you want 95%
loading you are going to have to have cargo booked long in advance, and
thus you'll get paid a lot closer to Cr 400/parsec. If you want to be a
'big tramp' (and there's nothing wrong with a 10 kton Tramp Freighter),
then you'll get paid more per dton, but will tend to have less full holds.

At Cr 800 per jump, you get revenue of about MCr 11.12, which takes your
profit margin down a fair bit.

Chris Thrash also made some points about loading time and such.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:59:27 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Fighter stuff

At 05:22 PM 6/2/99 +0800, you wrote:
>Conventional missiles even when fitted with a lot of electronic systems are
>likely to be a lot cheaper than a nuclear detonation missile, so there could
>also be a lot more of them for those PD lasers to hit, plus all those
>decoys, chaff, etc. Things could get very confusing for the poor fire
>control computer.
>
>In "Red Storm Rising" an example of a confused PD system is given. Two
>missiles are attacking the Nimitz from the same quarter at the same range,
>the poor Phalanx system could not decide which to engage so went into reset
>mode. Neither missile is engaged and strike the carrier.
>
>Tumbling a ship to bring all PD batteries to bear, interesting, may possibly
>work but depending on the ships configuration would it not slow the rate of
>fire, and also result in fire control locks having to be rapidly transferred
>from weapon to weapon?
>
>

There is also the question of acquisition time.  It take time to move the
laser turrets onto target and resolve the .00000001 degrees of arc necessary
to hit a less than 1 meter object at 1000k+ meter.  You are looking at
resolving very small angles very fast and very acurately while moving heavy
turrets with considerable ineria.  Just what are the mechining toloerences
of those turrents' positioners and how is the gear slop messured and
corrected by the gravity focusing system in the lasers?  You are talking
some serious measurments and mathamatical computations to deal with slop and
paralax.  Where are these problem resolved?  It could be that there is a
very limited 'anti-missle' range to lasers due to these limitations and that
limited range and responce time can be used to overload a ships defences.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 14:00:08 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Missiles Declaration (was RE: Fighter stuff) (long)

At 10:29 02/06/1999 +1000, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
>Dear Folks -
>
>Just a quick note to say thanks to Phil Kitching for posting some numbers
>about missiles vs PDL's. I know all the arguments (this IS a Done To Death
>topic) but I think I missed seeing the actual mathematics (although I
>spotted the deliberate mistake - I think you meant 10G missiles, not
>1000G?).

Umm, no.

I acually did the original calculation for 1,000G missiles at 1,000km,
figuring that this was a reasonable upper limit for target distance/
acceleration against kinetic kill missiles.

With the 22cm result, I then extended the range to 13,000km to get
a figure for missiles that are in more common Traveller use.

There is a slight error in your calculation.

r^2/c^2 is in units of second^2, so d is in units of (G second^2) or
decameters (not km), so your evasion distance is only 0.13cm.

Phil Kitching

- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 07:35:05 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

>Imperial copyright/patent law will force it to happen. As I understand
>Marc's explanation Imperial Patent law is derivative. Which means it works
>like this:
>If I invent a line printer I own the design of the printer, and I own any
>derivative technology.  That means if someone invents a dot matrix printer I
>own it. If someone invents an inkjet print, I own it. If someone invents a
>Laser jet printer, I own it.
>I can license the design to you and you can manufacture and sell it as long
>as I get the royalties.  Under this system how much are you going to put
>into R&D?

This way of doing things must be a legacy of the Vilani way of doing things.
And if so, it would explain why the Vilani were so slow in their technological
development...


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #698
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, June 2 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 699



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Non-standard PSI talents
RE: Computer tech in 3I
RE:  Psionic MOS
Tarsus
Re: Red Square, Comrade?...
Re: Computer tech in 3I
Re: Fighter Weapons Mounting and Crewing
Re: Neat little resource
Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit
Solomani Astrography
Re: Non-standard PSI talents
Re: Missiles Declaration (was RE: Fighter stuff) (long)
re: Missiles Declaration (was RE: Fighter stuff) (long)
Re: Linux (was Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues)
Re: Neat little resource
Re: Neat little resource
[OT] Re: Neat little resource
Re: [OT] Re: Neat little resource
Re: [OT] Re: Neat little resource
GT:Far Trader Trade Routes site
Re: [OT] Re: Neat little resource
Re: [OT] Re: Neat little resource
Re: [OT] Re: Neat little resource
Re: [OT] Re: Neat little resource
Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes site

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 09:38:08 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Non-standard PSI talents

I haven't been following the psionic thread, so please forgive
me if this has been covered. IIRC, it is implied in CT that there
are PSI talents other than those listed (ie., telekinesis, 
telepathy, self awareness, teleportation, clairvoyance). I have
added rules for pyrokinesis (inducing heat), domination 
(influencing another sophont's mind), and healing (figure it out).
Are there any other talents out there?

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:37:15 -0500 
From: "Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com>
Subject: RE: Computer tech in 3I

>up to you.  I tend to assume that personal documents, like money, are kept
>on some kind of data crystal, which you can where around your wrist or
>neck, or have imbedded in your head, or hang off some kind of
>body-piercing, or.....  Just wave it past a 'reader' and the data is
>available.  A 'reader' is essentially just any old computer.

That's part of my point... I'm not convinced that you can be sure "any old
computer" is going to be compatible.  

When it comes to "money on a chip" you have the problem of personal
exchange... I can't loan you five Cr unless we have a computer capable of
handling the transaction, which isn't exactly convenient.  I don't see paper
money fading out.  (And neither did the authors of Traveller.)  Paper money
is too convenient, especially if you want to make "private" transactions
that don't get recorded on somebody's computer. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:40:30 -0500
From: "Vincent P. Runci" <vahid@prodigy.net>
Subject: RE:  Psionic MOS

No, no, no.. Psionic training is mandatory for E-8s, and takes place at the
First Sergeant Academy.

"BERRY!  I *know* you think you're slinking off before 1700! Fine with me,
'cause I also *know* you won't mind pulling CQ Saturday.."  -1SG Dollar,
1985.

Good Point, I don't know why I didn't think of that.  This would explain my
First Sergeant's mystical ability to be at more than one place at a time.
:)

By the way, I think the SFC made a good point with the skill identifiers in
regards to psionic ability.

VR

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:54:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Tarsus

Someone a few digests ago asked if Tarsus was a good suplement to buy.  I
own it and like it.  It includes a nice map of District 268, though if
you've got one of the old black map/posters of the Marches, then this
doesn't add much. There's alot of good information fleshing out Tarsus
itself, including some nice maps.  I use Tarsus as the base for a lot of
adventures because of this supplement. 

Charles C.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 08:17:25 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Red Square, Comrade?...

>From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
.
>> >Where do I get Mayday?
>> 
>>   Marc Miller still sells Mayday, AFAIK;  <FarFuture@aol.com>
>
>Oh?  For how much?  I have lost most of my original Mayday.

  I'm afraid that I heaved/lost the invoice after getting my order.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 08:17:31 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I
.
>>   I recall hearing the complaint that one of the problems in planning at
>> a big telecom was that they couldn't budget adequately for a new system
>> because they couldn't begin to guess whether or not it would be obsolete
>> in 5 years or twenty.
>
>Contrast that with the old Bell System. They designed things to be
>*usable* for 20+ years. The stuff where there was a *need* to upgrade
.
>given decent maintenance, it could still be running a century from now.

  Yep. Now they don't know whether the return will be adequate as some new
tech may drop the price of their service in ten years or the day after it's
completed :(

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 08:17:37 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Fighter Weapons Mounting and Crewing

>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Fighter Weapons Mounting and Crewing
>
>In your individual and/or collective opinion(s), does a fixed-mount
>weapon on a fighter require its own gunner and gunnery station, or is
>the pilot the gunner of a fixed-mount weapon?  The answer to this
>question will influence the design of the F5A-series heavy fighter,
>currently in development by AuricTech Shipyards.

  Per HG2 the pilot can operate one "fixed" offensive weapon _and_ one
sandcaster. The rationale for the latter clause is unclear; if it's not
just because sandcaster operations are simple and highly automated then
the same should apply to a missile launcher ("Computer, target: Beta. 
Launch!"). Although small-craft pilots may be very highly trained in the
OTU there must be some point where they get overloaded [unless they install
black boxes designed per B:8 - which is just _wrong_ :> ].

  The question does matter becuase it affects a lot of very small PC ships,
especially things like Scout/Couriers with only a single trained operator.
It might not be unreasonable to rule that such a small starship can still
have the pilot run an offensive battery and/or sandcaster if navy trained,
and perhaps add a missile battery at an additional -1 (under CT; later rules
might allow a dedicated MFD or such to bypass this).

  Given that batteries are laid by sensor reports (Star Wars and Buck Rogers
to the contrary) it might not be very unreasonable to have a gunner on a Far
Trader run both turrets as separate batteries (or against separate targets),
with only a -1* to represent work overload.

 * still an inefficient use of the installation, but better than nothing if
only one qualified gunner is a board.

        Steven Hudson

The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"
        (but Space 1889 is quite cool, too)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:34:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Neat little resource

Doug Berry <dberry@hooked.net> writes:
> 
> If you're like me, and have troulbe naming NPCs and characters, surf out to:
> 
> http://home.austin.rr.com/rradmin/starwars/
> 
> and play with the Star Wars Name Generator.
> 
> I came out as Berdo Dosan.

Unfortunately, it's a painfully simple algorithm that only yields
one result per set of input, and then the same one over and over
again.

I tried it and got "Cooma Sccor".  Since my mothers maiden name is
"Schuster" and my (current) hometown is "Corvallis", this is exactly
what I'd expect from a formula that goes:

First Name = 1st 3 letters of (real) last name + 1st 2 letters of
             (real) first name.
Last Name  = 1st 2 letters of mother's maiden name + 1st 3 letters
             of hometown.

and that's all it does.  Try varying the input and see for yourself.

Now, if you want a *serious* random name generator, download "namegen.tar"
from Joe Heck's Missouri archive at:

    http://www.mu.org/~joe/traveller/archive/software/

unarchive the source code, compile it and follow instructions.  It'll
spit out yards of random names.  BTW, please note the author. :^)

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:11:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes, try two and a bit

- --- SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:

> >In gif format, the full sector is 224k. This is, of course, with
> >the trade routes partly done.
> 
> What kind of DPI and colour level are you using?

72 DPI and 32 colors.
 
> >> I checked with Marc Miller if it was okay to use the map. He
> >> responded that
> >> as long as it was not for profit, and I put the FFE disclaimer on
> >> trademark, it was okay. I suggest you contact him and check. He
> >> responded
> >> within a week, IIRC.
> >
> >I will. Do you have his address handy?
> 
> FarFuture@aol.com

I got my written permission from Gurps yesterday. My thanks 
to Gene Seabolt.
 
I will get the page set up as he indicated today and get a very 
map up. Complete map, just nowhere near all the trade routes yet.

Terry
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:56:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bob Kondrk <rkondrk@yahoo.com>
Subject: Solomani Astrography

Hello. I'm setting up a new campaign far rimward of
the 3I. IMTU, the area was originally settled by a STL
colony ship that left from Terra just before the
Interstellar Wars. My question is this - is there any
Traveller canon data concerning Terran astrographic
conventions (in other words, how space is
"geographically" designated; sort of like the
"Reference beacon" system from the old Library Data
books that the 3I uses) during that era, or should I
feel free to make up whatever fits? Any suggestions
that anyone might have would also be useful.

Thanks,

Bob Kondrk
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 13:02:32 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Non-standard PSI talents

At 09:38 AM 6/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I haven't been following the psionic thread, so please forgive
>me if this has been covered. IIRC, it is implied in CT that there
>are PSI talents other than those listed (ie., telekinesis, 
>telepathy, self awareness, teleportation, clairvoyance). I have
>added rules for pyrokinesis (inducing heat), domination 
>(influencing another sophont's mind), and healing (figure it out).
>Are there any other talents out there?

I always tended to run the Psi skills similar to the way they were
presented in May's Pliocene Epoch and Galactic Mileu series.  Add D-Jump
for teleport and you have a fairly hefty stable of powers.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:40:37 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Missiles Declaration (was RE: Fighter stuff) (long)

david.d.jaques-watson wrote:

[snip]

A good post, but I'd like to see a more plausible explanation for people
who don't like detonation laser missiles and want to keep the old canon.

>Solutions to the Problem
>
>     To get around this, TNE introduced non-contact, nuclear-pumped xray
>laser missiles. This, in turn, made many long-time players unhappy. They
>argued that this application of real-world physics might be nice from a
>hard-SF point of view, but it significantly alters the canonical view of
>space combat. First, it is a relaxation of the Imperial Rules of War, which
>might make sense in the New Era but not the Third Imperium. Second, not all
>vessels have point-defence weaponry, such as civilian craft. Third, a
>surprised target or one deprived of sensors or power cannot shoot a missile
>down.
>
>     Therefore, a number of alternative explanations were created and added
>to the mix, such as kinetic-kill missiles (KKM's) that explode some
>distance from the target and scatter shrapnel into the vessel's path.
>Others created 10- and 20G missiles (although even these fall victims to
>physics, see above), or chemically-pumped laser missiles. Still others
>suggested overloading the PDL's - what happens when a missile cruiser
>shoots at a far trader, for instance (30 turrets x 3 missile racks = 900
>missiles!). Finally, other people decided simply to ignore the problem when
>using more abstract ship combat systems, such as _High Guard_.

Now, starship hulls are made of hard, metallic (or artificial) surfaces,
and are covered with things that make them nonstealthy - turrets,
sensors, commo receivers etc. Is it possible that the reason missiles
work is that, because they don't need to survive micrometeor impacts et
al, they are far, far stealthier than a `starship' of equivalent size?

As I see it, the best detection system for missiles is going to be IR -
after all, you can make the body absorbent in the radio frequency,
visible light and UV parts of the spectrum since you have no constraints
on armouring it. 

Although the EMS Passive array does contain a passive IR sensor, there
are two snags to using it for point-defence:

1. Does it have the required resolution for targeting very small
targets?

2. It's easy to `white out' this sensor.

This gives your 6G6 missile a good chance of surviving to impact. It
doesn't break canon (CT, MT) anywhere as far as I can see.

Comments?  

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 07:07:55 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Missiles Declaration (was RE: Fighter stuff) (long)

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au writes:
>Have I missed anything?
>
>I noticed that there is no recognition of the time it takes to process the
>lidar response and calculate a firing solution, or of the time it takes for
>the missile to travel that last 1000 km, or of the time it takes for the
>PDL to recharge.
>
>Can someone help here?

I can't give any figures but ISTR that the time for targeting solutions etc
was covered during the other version of this debate, the Great Fighter
Flame War about two (three?) years ago. One of the Bruce's (IIRC) posted a
lot of figures about target aquisition and I think (not subscribing then )
that the GDW-beta / Trav Tech list covered the same topic in a lot of math.
Being that a PDL is powered off the same fusion plant that a normal laser
is, and ROFs are covered in Striker, MT, FFS1 and FFS2 I think that gives
you your recharge time.

However, this was all on my old Mac, and I haven't got the digests anymore
:-/ Nearly all the tech Great old ones were active in that debate (Dave G,
Leonard...).

Hope that this helps,

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 14:52:04 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Linux (was Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues)

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> Just as a short note, one of the most popular events at BayCon was the
> Linux install fest.  For four hours, manical Linux freaks installed RedHat
> on any computer that walked through the door, free of charge.  You could
> bring one of the commercial releases with all the bells and whistles, or
> they had the bare bones systems avalible.
> 
> Very popular, and after four hours there was still a line.
> 
> It was, of course, held in a windowless room...
>

Too bad I wasn't there, I would have gone for that too.  One of the
things stopping me from trying Linux is not knowing a bloody thing about
setting it up or compiling kernals.  (plus the fact all my software is
Windoze.)
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 15:02:31 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Neat little resource

I compiled that namegen.c and got these warnings :

c:\system\download\names\namegen.c(133) : warning C4013: 'exit'
undefined; assuming extern returning int
c:\system\download\names\namegen.c(188) : warning C4013: 'usage'
undefined; assuming extern returning int
c:\system\download\names\namegen.c(189) : warning C4013: 'atoi'
undefined; assuming extern returning int
c:\system\download\names\namegen.c(249) : warning C4013: 'max_syllable'
undefined; assuming extern returning int
c:\system\download\names\namegen.c(324) : warning C4013: 'proper_word'
undefined; assuming extern returning int
c:\system\download\names\namegen.c(329) : warning C4013:
'print_structure' undefined; assuming extern returning int
c:\system\download\names\namegen.c(492) : warning C4013: 'srand'
undefined; assuming extern returning int
c:\system\download\names\namegen.c(492) : warning C4013: 'time'
undefined; assuming extern returning int
c:\system\download\names\namegen.c(495) : warning C4013: 'rand'
undefined; assuming extern returning int
c:\system\download\names\namegen.c(496) : warning C4244: '=' :
conversion from 'float ' to 'int ', possible loss of data
c:\system\download\names\namegen.c(461) : warning C4716: 'usage' : must
return a value
c:\system\download\names\namegen.c(472) : warning C4716:
'print_structure' : must return a value

namegen.obj - 0 error(s), 12 warning(s)

I am using Visual C++ 6.0 Professional.  What do these all mean?

- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 15:10:55 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Neat little resource

Ok, on that namegen thing, I compiled it, then clicked "build" and still
nothing.  How do I get an executable?
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 15:12:45 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: [OT] Re: Neat little resource

At 03:02 PM 6/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I compiled that namegen.c and got these warnings :
>
[a lot of level 4 warnings snipped]
>
>namegen.obj - 0 error(s), 12 warning(s)
>
>I am using Visual C++ 6.0 Professional.  What do these all mean?

They mean the programmer was not as neat as he should be If I:

File A.c contains:
int joe(blah) {blah, blah;}

and file B.c contains
    x = joe(blah);

when I compile B.c I'll get a "joe undefined, assuming extern returning int"
unless I put a prototype of joe at the top of B.c (or in an include file).

The rest are similarly not 'pretty' programming, but the program works. (or
at least it compiles. You didn't say if it worked or not :> )


- -- 
Should've been dead on a Sunday morning
banging my head / no time for mourning
ain't got no time  -- Creed
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 15:27:30 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Neat little resource

The program compiled, but I got no .EXE file.  I double-clicked on a
.PLG of the file wich opened Internet Explorer to more 'warnings' like
the one you mentioned .

Build Log

- --------------------Configuration: namegen - Win32
Debug--------------------

Command Lines
Creating temporary file "c:\windows\TEMP\RSP72F4.TMP" with contents
[
kernel32.lib user32.lib gdi32.lib winspool.lib comdlg32.lib advapi32.lib
shell32.lib ole32.lib oleaut32.lib uuid.lib odbc32.lib odbccp32.lib
/nologo /subsystem:console /incremental:yes /pdb:"Debug/namegen.pdb"
/debug /machine:I386 /out:"Debug/namegen.exe" /pdbtype:sept 
.\Debug\namegen.obj
]
Creating command line "link.exe @c:\windows\TEMP\RSP72F4.TMP"
Output Window
Linking...



Results
namegen.exe - 0 error(s), 0 warning(s)


- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 15:25:33 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Neat little resource

At 03:27 PM 6/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
>The program compiled, but I got no .EXE file.  I double-clicked on a
>.PLG of the file wich opened Internet Explorer to more 'warnings' like
>the one you mentioned .
.
>kernel32.lib user32.lib gdi32.lib winspool.lib comdlg32.lib advapi32.lib
>shell32.lib ole32.lib oleaut32.lib uuid.lib odbc32.lib odbccp32.lib
>/nologo /subsystem:console /incremental:yes /pdb:"Debug/namegen.pdb"
>/debug /machine:I386 /out:"Debug/namegen.exe" /pdbtype:sept 
>.\Debug\namegen.obj

This /out:"Debug/namegen.exe" causes namegen.exe to be created in the 
"Debug" subdirectory. You really need a manual :(




- -- 
Should've been dead on a Sunday morning
banging my head / no time for mourning
ain't got no time  -- Creed
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:26:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes site

Well, I have recieved permission to post the trade maps I am 
working on. They are at the site below.

http://www.ghg.net/tmixon/Trade/

At this point, they have no trade information on them. As I get 
each area done, and get that moved from paper to the maps, they 
will be updated.

All comments welcome and I hope they will prove useful to 
someone.

Terry
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 15:33:16 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Neat little resource

Rob Brady wrote:

> 
> This /out:"Debug/namegen.exe" causes namegen.exe to be created in the
> "Debug" subdirectory. You really need a manual :(
> 

<sigh>  I know.  I don't know ANYTHING about this software.

- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 15:36:19 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Neat little resource

Ok, from the dosprompt I type "namegen" and it says :
Invalid number of names requested

and does nothing else.  So I tried namegen 1, namegen /1 and got the
same error.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 15:38:48 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Neat little resource

Ok, tried -n 10 switch and it ran for a second and I got a windows error
"Debug Assertion Failure"
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 15:42:02 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Neat little resource

Ok, what I had to do is copy all the files to a directory with the file
"template.".  Then use the command switch :
namegen -n 10 template

This generated 10 names.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 12:41:58 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes site

One suggestion: make the map on the main page thumbnails of each file
linking to the bigger versions, it'll make the thing a lot easier to
navigate.

You can put in small table cells underneath each one to have the name of
each subsector, too.


Terry Mixon wrote:
> 
> Well, I have recieved permission to post the trade maps I am
> working on. They are at the site below.
> 
> http://www.ghg.net/tmixon/Trade/
> 
> At this point, they have no trade information on them. As I get
> each area done, and get that moved from paper to the maps, they
> will be updated.
> 
> All comments welcome and I hope they will prove useful to
> someone.
> 
> Terry
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #699
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